# How Much Ground Clearance Do You Need?



## TheGreatAbyss

Question to the Forum: How much ground clearance do I really need to make it to the ski hills and back?

I'm ready to buy another car, and I'm definitely getting something with AWD, but beyond that I'm debating. The normal choice for a ski car is a high riding SUV, but I have a few issues with that:

1) I'm a short guy - At 5'6" it's a giant pain in the a** to climb on top of these things to get my skis out of a Thule box

2) Because of of #1 I always end up throwing my skis in the car which not only reduces cargo area, but is actually quite dangerous

3) I live in Brooklyn, and having a more compact car is easier to park

I'm thinking that getting a regular sedan or hatch would be easier to get on top of, easier to park, and actually safer when it comes to transporting skis if I'm putting them on top.

Does anyone have any experience driving a regular height AWD sedan or hatch through snow storms and snowy / muddy parking lots? I'm thinking of something like a regular Impreza hatch, or the little Mazda CX-3. Does increased ground clearance really do anything for traction? I'm not going off roading or anything.


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## raisingarizona

I'm driving an old 2002 Subaru Legacy right now and I love it for going to the ski area and back. It trucks in the snow and it's easy to get around town in.

I like Mazda's a lot. My gf has an older 3 and it's really fun to drive. I wish the 6 came with AWD.


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## MC2

We have an Subaru Impreza and a Toyota 4Runner.

We end up taking the Impreza everywhere because, while we thought we would need the additional ground clearance of the 4Runner for super snowy days, it turns out that we didn't.

Plus the Impreza gets better gas mileage.


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## TheGreatAbyss

MC2 - Is it a hatch or a Sedan?

Also do you think the WRX (not STI) would be too low? I've always wanted one but at 4.9 inches of Ground Clearance I'm worried that might be too low for those crazy potholed ski resort parking lots.


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## Harvey

Do you stay overnight in the mountains? What is the driveway like, where you stay?


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## TheGreatAbyss

I do stay overnight at various different places. At worst they are unplowed dirt roads, at best they are plowed parking lots. The worst I've probably seen was a VRBO in Lake Placid that was up a steep unplowed dirt/ice hill. My old Ford Escape did get me up and down just fine.

Z: The legacy has 5.9 inches of clearance. Surprisingly high for a sedan. That being said I do prefer the compactness of the impreza for parking reasons.


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## Ethan Snow

TheGreatAbyss said:


> How much ground clearance do you really need to make it to the ski hills and back?



About this much. 





Anything else, it's all the same shit nowadays. The make and model is almost irrelevant, all cars are built mechanically very similar with very little ground clearance to improve fuel economy. I'm not saying to go out and buy a Fiat, I'm just saying that if ground clearance is a concern, well, It's really just what works best for you. 

AWD is really just a marketing game on the vehicle manufacturers part. There's a differential between the front and back wheels in an AWD (that's how they stay in AWD all the time) so once you are really in a slippery situation and the diff spins out you aren't really that much further ahead than with a regular front wheel drive vehicle than gets better mileage anyway. I've seen AWD vehicle get stuck, and there's still only one wheel spinning. 4 wheel drive that you shift into manually when you start slipping creates a solid mechanical link between the front and back wheels, and will be the only thing that's really going to save you if you really do get into some serious shit. 

Honestly, Tires are the biggest thing here. If you're looking for a small car, get yourself a Honda or a Nissan, and put snow tires on it for the winter months. I have a Nissan Sentra (and a 4wd truck) with just 2 Cooper Weathermasters on the front and that thing will shred the gnar. I've driven it on a lot of powder days this season, as well as commute every day on rough roads all winter long, and have not had any issues. Meanwhile my mom has an AWD Chevy Traverse, and i've driven it a lot but personally I think it handles horribly on snow compared to my little car. Partly because she runs all season tires. My dad has an AWD Subaru Legacy, and it honestly doesn't handle any better than the Nissan. I actually think the snow tires on the 2wd Nissan still handle better than the Legacy with whatever tires he has on it. 

Basically, no standard vehicle is "designed" to handle in conditions other than pavement, unless you mod the heck out of them


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## Harvey

Ethan Snow said:


> About this much.



How much is that? How far is that rear diff off the ground?


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## Ethan Snow

Harvey said:


> How much is that?



Not exactly sure. That truck comes stock with 9.1" of ground clearance, but that's referring to the height of the axle which is fixed. It looks like the truck has about a 7" suspension lift on it. so the body has probably close to 20" or so.

For the record, not my truck. Just a pic I had.


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## riverc0il

If you are driving on paved roads that receive normal plowing, you don't "need" anything more than a FWD vehicle with snow tires.

I am a storm chaser and I've always gotten by just fine with low to the ground compact cars. If anything, my current Civic Hatch might have the least amount of clearance of any car that I have owned. If the snow is so deep that ground clearance is going to be an issue for a compact car, you probably shouldn't be driving even if you have a vehicle with large ground clearance as that means the plows can't keep up and even large clearance AWD drive vehicles will have issues with travelling safely.

If you routinely drive on roads that do not receive good plowing and you need to plow through a full night of snowfall without plowing, by all means get a big SUV or a truck.

Otherwise, ground clearance really shouldn't be a factor in most people's decisions. I've been a storm chaser for almost 20 years and I have never had a single issue (excepting when I first started storm chasing as a flat lander without snows, fixed that issue right quick).


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## MC2

TheGreatAbyss said:


> MC2 - Is it a hatch or a Sedan?
> 
> Also do you think the WRX (not STI) would be too low? I've always wanted one but at 4.9 inches of Ground Clearance I'm worried that might be too low for those crazy potholed ski resort parking lots.



Sedan. I know skiers who drive WRX's. If you've always wanted one, get one. You'll get to the mountains when you need to.


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## BRLKED

I have a Mazda 3 hatch-back, front wheel drive, 35+ mpg. the key to winter driving in snow country Snow Tires! The only time I have had trouble is when I had to drive in 8+ inches, the front wheels kept loosing traction because the under-carriage pan made the car float. I don't have a box , everything goes in the back [seat down] sometimes 7 pairs of skis plus needed duffels and packs, plenty of room as long as you only need to transport yourself. I live in the DACKs and I do have a Tacoma as back-up. I also have a friend who drives a WRX full time but he doesn't live up here but spends a lot of time at his camp in North River.


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## Tjf1967

I drive a all wheel drive sedan. Put 30k miles per year driving around the park. You will never see more than 6 inches on most of the roads. Get 30 mpg so why not get awd. Once you are moving it's true you don't need awd. It does handle better and it's nice never getting stuck getting moving. Put a set of snows on it and you can plow through pretty deep stuff.


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## Ethan Snow

Harvey said:


> How far is that rear diff off the ground?



I think that's the 9.1" The rear diff will always be pretty low on a truck. But it's a solid axle, so it will always be the same distance from the bottom of the tires. They're not usually a problem.


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## Campgottagopee

You can have both.

Go drive the Subaru Forester and Crosstrek. Both of these cars are easy in and out, and with 8.7" provide nearly the same amount of ground clearance as the full-size SUV and PU markets do.

And yes, the WRX would be fine as it has close to 5" of ground clearance.


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## Brownski

I drove an X5 for two years. It’s not really the way I roll normally (won a sales contest) but I can tell you for sure you will enjoy driving it. Absolutely solid in the snow, fast as hell of course and nothing broke or malfunctioned in the 30k I had it for. I’m an American mini-van/pickup guy so getting used to the German-performance-driving-feel of a BMW took a little while but after the break-in period I loved it


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## D.B. Cooper

I have a Volvo V60 T5 AWD and am in the ADK every weekend. I've never had a problem with ground clearance. With the snow tires, you can climb anything with ease. It's got 30 mpg and lots of space. The Volvo roof rack is Thule white-labelled gear and actually cheaper than buying full-on Thule.

17 gallon gas tank, too. That is handy.

The heated windshield is good - turn the car/windshield on and after a few minutes any ice comes off like a knife through warm butter. I was expecting a bit more when driving through ice storms.....you don't have to stop as often to clear off the wipers, but you do have to do it from time to time.

I saw enough accidents first hand to not want to f-around.


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## Benny Profane

The OP addresses my big complaint about modern SUVs, which is roof height. My first Outback in 93 was a station wagon with clearance, which was fine. "Normal" height roofline. Now there's a race to bloat these things up and up, for no other good reason than to make the car seem bigger on the outside and get to some magical number for interior volume that makes the sales people happy. I could fairly easily get into my Thule box on top of my '01 Forester, and also get into most parking garages, which is important, but, I need a small stepladder (I'm 6 ft.) with the same combo on my '10 Forester, and the latest Foresters have an even higher roofline, about 3-4 inches higher. The Outback is the same these days.

I'm looking at the Volkwagen AWD wagon, which is, ahem, a car with clearance. There is the Audi AllRoad, but, I'm not that well off. Love to own that little AWD S Audi wagon, must be a scream to drive, but, again, daddy didn't leave me much. Any other cars with AWD and clearance out there?

As far as clearence, of course you need some for skiing. Not all the time, but, when you do, you will thank yourself for buying that car. As mentioned, crappy dirt roads in mud season are much easier, and safer. Arriving at an unplowed road at night with your house at the end is another time you need it. Hell, one time I decided to drive to Killington during an Xmas eve storm, and I guess the plow drivers were all off and back home with families, because the Northway had close to a foot of snow on it as I plowed through. Thank you, clearence.

Don't get me going about everyone driving around in thos stupid pickup trucks. Always have to laugh when you see them off to the sides of roads in bad storms. Those and Jeeps. Dumb.


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## Campgottagopee

Whatev --- let me see you toss a dead deer in your, ahem, car with clearance ----- or firewood ---- or pellets ---- or dirt ---- or sand ---- or hay ---- or ladders ---- or staging ----- or blocks ---- or bricks --- or lumber


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## Campgottagopee

Different AWD Systems are not alike


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## x10003q

We had audi sedans and wagons for the 25 years we owned at Gore and we never felt the need for ground clearance. Since the A4 based all road wagon was too small for my family, we migrated to a VW Touareg. Now that we mostly ski in VT, we are happier that we have some ground clearance. The snow is deeper and at times, not plowed. I would also rather be driving a truck based suspension on the many dirt roads we now drive on in VT. Your ground clearance needs can only be answered by you.

Some cars/suvs that have AWD that have not been mentioned:
Buick Regal sedan and TourX wagon. These are somewhat full sized at about 193 inches long.
Ford Fusion awd
Kia Sportage
Mitsubishi Outlander
Hyundai Tuscon and Santa Fe
Dodge Challenger/Charger
Chrysler 300 awd
Chevy Trax/Buick Encore


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## marcski

I love my VW Alltrack. It rocked in some fairly deep, unplowed snow upstate this winter. Plus, I believe it is the only station wagon available in the US that comes in a manual!


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## Ethan Snow

I think it's pretty easy to make the argument for using a truck as a daily. They're reliable and you can get a lot of miles out of them.

The biggest problem I have with modern SUVs is that the engines and trannys fail prematurely. This is because they are under built to reduce weight, and theoretically increase fuel economy. They put in small engines that rev at high RPMs and run close to water for oil to produce the power necessary to move a vehicle of their size. Those engines won't last nearly as long as a truck. Trannys aren't built to last either. The tranny on our Traverse shit the bed at 130K miles, meanwhile we have two POS 90s GM pickups both with over 200K miles still going strong. Ive talked to a lot of mechanics about this and they all say modern crossovers/SUVs just aren't made to put on the miles. Trucks are just built to last. Really anything with a longitudinal drivetrain will last a lot longer. My buddy drives a Chev Tahoe which is basically truck, and he's at 320xxx miles.

If you want a small SUV that's fine, just plan on trading it on after you put a few miles on it.

My Nissan 4 banger gets 29 MPG at best and meanwhile the new GM 1/2 tonners get like 27 (i've driven them, it's not joke) so if you can afford to have a vehicle that you know will last a long time, and keep you safe in whatever life throws at you, get a truck. No fault there. 1/2 tonners (1500s) are really designed as daily drivers for the most part anyway. It's when you start driving a 3/4, or a dually as a daily that it gets silly. But if it sets your pants on fire, drive whatever you want. I have a 3/4 ton chevy with a 454 that I drive just for fun sometimes.



 

Nissan is the daily.


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## Adam Kaufman

Get a sedan or hatch w/ AWD, snow tires, and a roof rack/box for your skis. I drive a Subaru WRX hatch and I have never had any clearance issues. Drive it through tons of snow all the time for powder days. Any road I couldn’t get it through I would probably need studded tires for anyways. Ground clearance is more important for off-roading than for snow. 

Highly recommend any Subaru. An Impreza hatch would be pretty ideal for the city as well.


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## jt10000

I grew up in Brooklyn and live in Manhattan.

Haven't had snow tires because I just can't deal with storing tires PLUS some winters there is little snow and my wife drives a lot on cleared roads (highways) so all seasons are our thing.

We've had two Subaru wagons with AWD over the years, plus some Nissans with front-wheel drive. Every winter I'm very happy with the Subaru a few times - typically getting through an icy driveway on a trip or just driving in and out of a snow-covered parking spot here in the city. What would take more digging with the Nissan is faster with the Subaru. We were on a vacation recently where it was very hard for another family with us with a FWD car to get out of the driveway one morning (all season tires and FWD). With our car it was easy.

The current Subaru is an Outback with a few inches more ground clearance than the Nissans and earlier Subaru Legacy. I'm not sure that's important.

I think the OP would be happy with an Impreza or Outback. We got an Outback which is longer - we usually put the skis inside with one of the seats folded down. Parking is perhaps little harder, but where we live in Manhattan overnight parking is pretty easy. And my wife takes it out in the day. 

I don't think a big truck is not right if you're driving/parking a lot many parts of NYC. If there are a lot of kids around (common in many part of the city) front and rear visibility is really important. Backup cameras help. I wish/hope some of the bigger trucks had front-facing cameras too. Actually I wish all vehicles did, but especially big ones.

Lastly, could we all please avoid a certain slang term for transmission - it's also a really offensive slur in another context. I know that's not what's meant here, but it's so bad to even read it.


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## DomB

Great Abyss - second the subaru fans here. If I were picking one car for what you want and you want to go green, think about the subaru crossteck hybrid - gets clearance but then probably roof access height around a large sedan, and lower than almost all SUVs.

Driving around Brooklyn you will be mostly on battery for the one Target and Costco I know about in Brooklyn, and when you want to get to the mountains, as Camp said, you will have the 8.7 clearance on basically an Impreza hatchback body, so easy access with the clearance. FYI, highlander/typical SUV will be around 8.0 inches. 

Summary - clearance will almost never be an issue. I did the Brooklyn to Catskills and occasional 'daks for years in my 2011 honda crv which only had 6.7 inches of ground clearance. 

My one concern with the impreza (have '14 hatchback awd with like 18,000 miles) - the front end sticks out a bit, so you can ding the bottom of the bumper going down hilly driveways.


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## Campgottagopee

jt10000 said:


> Lastly, could we all please avoid a certain slang term for transmission - it's also a really offensive slur in another context. I know that's not what's meant here, but it's so bad to even read it.



Huh? What are you referring to?


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## jt10000

Campgottagopee said:


> Huh? What are you referring to?


A word for transmission that is also a slur toward transgender people.


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## Campgottagopee

jt10000 said:


> A word for transmission that is also a slur toward transgender people.



Never even heard of it --- you mean tranny?


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## jt10000

I'm not writing the word, but yes - it's a vile insult in a non-automotive context.


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## Brownski

So now we’re getting spammed in the dog thread by some dude selling bespoke collars and leashes and the word police are auditing the car threads. NYSB has truly arrived.


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## jt10000

Brownski said:


> So now we’re getting spammed in the dog thread by some dude selling bespoke collars and leashes and the word police are auditing the car threads. NYSB has truly arrived.


I'm just asking people to be considerate about a slur. If that upsets you, ignore me.


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## Campgottagopee

jt10000 said:


> I'm not writing the word, but yes - it's a vile insult in a non-automotive context.



Oh boy ?‍♂️ 
You may want to have a bit more thicker skin, this is the IntraWebZ.


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## Warp daddy

jt10000 said:


> I'm just asking people to be considerate about a slur. If that upsets you, ignore me.


?


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## Tjf1967

jt10000 said:


> I'm not writing the word, but yes - it's a vile insult in a non-automotive context.


Get over yourself kid. Life is full of unpleasantries. Deal with it.


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## Scrundy

jt10000 said:


> I'm not writing the word, but yes - it's a vile insult in a non-automotive context.


Oh please, we are talking about vehicles. Are you really that offended or poking around for a reaction ?

And to answer the ground clearance question. All you need is a AWD vehicle, trucks suck unless you have a 2500 or above. I’ve lived in boondocks my whole life and the old rear 2wd also suck. (hope suck didn’t offend)


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## D.B. Cooper

Better not listen to this song, lest one be offended.
Red Peters


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## Brownski

Scrundy said:


> I’ve lived in boondocks my whole life and the old rear 2wd also suck. (hope suck didn’t offend)


You just reminded of a funny memory. When I was maybe 11 or 12 years old my mom had lit up my older brother over something or other so he was bent out of shape enough that when he got out of the shower he wrote “mom sucks” in the condensation on the bathroom mirror. Well, I guess when the next sibling took her turn in the bathroom, the message reappeared. Either one of my sisters narced or else one of my parents somehow saw it. I don’t know. All I know is I stepped out into the hall and my dad was standing there, completely red faced, bellowing at my brother “that means your mother sucks on penises! Is that what you think? Are you saying your mother sucks on penises?” Man, he was pissed. My brother was silent- probably a smart move at that point. I just turned around and went back in my bedroom. Good times.


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## tirolski

Brownski said:


> You just reminded of a funny memory. When I was maybe 11 or 12 years old my mom had lit up my older brother over something or other so he was bent out of shape enough that when he got out of the shower he wrote “mom sucks” in the condensation on the bathroom mirror. Well, I guess when the next sibling took her turn in the bathroom, the message reappeared. Either one of my sisters narced or else one of my parents somehow saw it. I don’t know. All I know is I stepped out into the hall and my dad was standing there, completely red faced, bellowing at my brother “that means your mother sucks on penises! Is that what you think? Are you saying your mother sucks on penises?” Man, he was pissed. My brother was silent- probably a smart move at that point. I just turned around and went back in my bedroom. Good times.


That’s too much information, just sayin.


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## Brownski

tirolski said:


> That’s too much information, just sayin.


It sure is. Sheesh


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## riverc0il

Really disappointing to see fellow forum members slagging off on a brand new forum member. If you don't understand why the issue is important to the poster, then just drop it, disregard, and move on. No need to pile on.

Back to digging up this old topic...



riverc0il said:


> If you are driving on paved roads that receive normal plowing, you don't "need" anything more than a FWD vehicle with snow tires.
> 
> I am a storm chaser and I've always gotten by just fine with low to the ground compact cars. If anything, my current Civic Hatch might have the least amount of clearance of any car that I have owned. If the snow is so deep that ground clearance is going to be an issue for a compact car, you probably shouldn't be driving even if you have a vehicle with large ground clearance as that means the plows can't keep up and even large clearance AWD drive vehicles will have issues with travelling safely.
> 
> If you routinely drive on roads that do not receive good plowing and you need to plow through a full night of snowfall without plowing, by all means get a big SUV or a truck.
> 
> Otherwise, ground clearance really shouldn't be a factor in most people's decisions. I've been a storm chaser for almost 20 years and I have never had a single issue (excepting when I first started storm chasing as a flat lander without snows, fixed that issue right quick).



I will eat crow on this post. There definitely is a ground clearance level that is too low for hassle free parking and storm chasing. My 2017 Honda Civic Hatch is quoted at 5.2" (suspect), and that drops a bit lower with a driver and their gear. It is just a bit too low.

I've beached the thing twice trying to park in unplowed snow (nothing too deep, but obviously deeper than the ground clearance). That is a concern when you are looking to earn turns and are parking in places not plowed as well as a parking lot.

During a particularly manky storm with bad plowing, I was getting tossed around due to not enough clearance and opted to bail on the drive (that was a first). I've been chasing storms in sedans, coupes, and wagons for over 20 years and never had any issues snow tires couldn't handle, before that instance.

On the flip side, my VW TDI wagen was listed at 5.4" and that thing was an absolute tank in the snow (FWD). So perhaps there are other issues besides the ground clearance at play. Likely, manufacturers are not consistent on their measurement methods (I really doubt my Civic is actually 5.2" off the ground). +7" might be the sweet spot for not too high but not too low.

Much as I love the overall lifetime 37.3 MPG of my Civic, I'm looking for something new this summer. There are a lot of lifted hatches and crossovers with AWD and good MPG now. That wasn't the case a few years ago when good MPG and AWD were mutually exclusive. Then again, there are also a ton of options with highway MPG topping out at only 28-30, which is still terrible.


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## Brownski

You’re right, man. I’m sorry. I think I’m just all bent out of shape cause the season is ending. I guess we should have redirected Herb to the complaint form


https://nyskiblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/important-form.jpg


Note to the admin- might be time to change the title of the complaint form


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## MC2

.


Brownski said:


> the word police are auditing the car threads.


Lol, yes, it must suck to have “the word police” come after your posts, even though you are free to respond in whatever way you want (and you certainly uhhhh... did) and it this guy is absolutely not affecting your ability to post at all.


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## Brownski

MC2 said:


> .
> 
> Lol, yes, it must suck to have “the word police” come after your posts, even though you are free to respond in whatever way you want and it this guy is absolutely not affecting your ability to post at all.


Point taken. I don’t even know who/ when somebody shockingly used that outdated, offensive totally not okay slang. It just struck me weird that that would be somebody’s first post. Maybe I was wrong to connect it to the recent spammers trying to sell stuff here but it seemed spammy to me, in its own way.


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## MC2

Brownski said:


> Point taken. I don’t even know who/ when somebody shockingly used that outdated, offensive totally not okay slang. It just struck me weird that that would be somebody’s first post.


I get it, you think it’s funny that he found it offensive.

Maybe you should make a thread where you can say all the offensive shit you want.


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## Brownski

Hey MC, are you JT1000? I wasn’t really paying attention but now it seems suspiciously close to JTG. It’s you right?


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## MC2

Brownski said:


> Hey MC, are you JT1000? I wasn’t really paying attention but now it seems suspiciously close to JTG. It’s you right?


I don’t use alt accounts. I just post under my own name.

Weird that you assume that though. I think you should make that offensive thread. You seem to feel very strongly about trying to offend new forum users.


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## jt10000

Brownski said:


> It just struck me weird that that would be somebody’s first post. Maybe I was wrong to connect it to the recent spammers trying to sell stuff here but it seemed spammy to me, in its own way.


I wouldn't only post about that as my first post. I put in six paragraphs of what I thought were real ski-travel related perspective. Sorry to not notice that thread was old. 

I frankly winced when I saw that word used several times - it's really bad (though wasn't used a slur as I noted). 

It's wild that six people have jumped up to push back against my simply *asking.* I would have thought that if someone didn't care they'd just move on. And it's really ironic that yall that seem so triggered by my asking are suggesting *I'm* the one who is butthurt or thin skinned. That's funny. If a request like that annoyed me or bothered me I'd do some self-reflection. YMMV.

No, I'm not transgender myself (and am not MC2). But I know transgender people (you may also, even if you don't realize it) and they face a lot. Language matters. So I care. I wish more people cared. 

But you do you. I'm not policing you - just asking.


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## jt10000

riverc0il said:


> Then again, there are also a ton of options with highway MPG topping out at only 28-30, which is still terrible.


Yeah. Our Outback only gets (listed) 33mph highway, which is not good.


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## Tjf1967

jt10000 said:


> I wouldn't only post about that as my first post. I put in six paragraphs of what I thought were real ski-travel related perspective. Sorry to not notice that thread was old.
> 
> I frankly winced when I saw that word used several times - it's really bad (though wasn't used a slur as I noted).
> 
> It's wild that six people have jumped up to push back against my simply *asking.* I would have thought that if someone didn't care they'd just move on. And it's really ironic that yall that seem so triggered by my asking are suggesting *I'm* the one who is butthurt or thin skinned. That's funny. If a request like that annoyed me or bothered me I'd do some self-reflection. YMMV.
> 
> No, I'm not transgender myself (and am not MC2). But I know transgender people (you may also, even if you don't realize it) and they face a lot. Language matters. So I care. I wish more people cared.
> 
> But you do you. I'm not policing you - just asking.


I wish you made like a bird. Tranny is not offensive. If it bothers you thats your problem. pushing your desire on others is offensive to me, please stop.


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## jt10000

Tjf1967 said:


> not offensive.


You're mistaken.



https://coe.uga.edu/assets/downloads/dei/words-that-are-transphobic.pdf






__





What words do I use when I talk about transgender and nonbinary identities?


There are many ways transgender and nonbinary people can describe their identities. Understanding the words and labels people use encourages respect and understanding.




www.plannedparenthood.org












GLAAD Media Reference Guide - 11th Edition


GLAAD's Media Reference Guide offers education and guidance on telling LGBTQ people's stories in ways that bring out the best in journalism.




www.glaad.org


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## Ripitz

Wow, welcome to the blog. I never knew that word was offensive, you learn something new everyday. I didn’t realize if I said, “My friend blew a tranny in his truck”, I would be saying something entirely different. I personally will be much more careful going forward.


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## XTski

MC2 said:


> I don’t use alt accounts. I just post under my own name.
> 
> Weird that you assume that though. I think you should make that offensive thread. You seem to feel very strongly about trying to offend new forum users.


Dude this is an awesome forum, people here do not make jokes about physically impaired people like they do on ski talk by pug, go on there and voice your concerns, I never heard the word your offended bye being offensive , so you should lighten up, younger generations should learn the old saying sticks and stones bro, sticks and stones, not become someone who is so offended bye words bro, words!


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## MC2

Ripitz said:


> Wow, welcome to the blog. I never knew that word was offensive, you learn something new everyday. I didn’t realize if I said, “My friend blew a tranny in his truck”, I would be saying something entirely different. I personally will be much more careful going forward.


That was good.

I think it’s a fine line. Comedy still exists. It’s just that some people are more sensitive so comedy (and general decency) has to change with the times.

It has happened before, it will happen again. No need to get upset about it either way (unless someone has a need to go out of their way to offend people... that’s no way to live. The South Park “offend everyone because fuck them” era appears to be ending)


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## MC2

XTski said:


> Dude this is an awesome forum, people here do not make jokes about physically impaired people like they do on ski talk by pug, go on there and voice your concerns, I never heard the word your offended bye being offensive , so you should lighten up, younger generations should learn the old saying sticks and stones bro, sticks and stones, not become someone who is so offended bye words bro, words!


I’m not offended, someone else in the thread was.

But you do realize that some things are offensive (you, personally, are offended by “jokes about physically impaired people like.. ski talk by pug”). You appear to be getting offended by some words too.

My general strategy is to just try to be nice to people. It’s not that hard.


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## Scrundy

jt10000 said:


> No, I'm not transgender myself (and am not MC2). But I know transgender people (you may also, even if you don't realize it) and they face a lot. Language matters. So I care. I wish more people cared.


Bla bla bla
What you may not realize is that 99.9% of people don’t give a crap if a person is gay, straight, brown, yellow or trans. The people that do are just ignorant and you’re never gonna change their minds. But to try and get me to care is ignorant too.

I was born ugly with a small penis, should I get special treatment? I think not. Life isn’t easy for anyone, we all have issues to deal with. Spare me the drama because your feeler are hurt.


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## XTski

MC2 said:


> I’m not offended, someone else in the thread was.
> 
> But you do realize that some things are offensive (you, personally, are offended by “jokes about physically impaired people like.. ski talk by pug”). You appear to be getting offended by some words too.
> 
> My general strategy is to just try to be nice to people. It’s not that hard.


A blind person couldn’t stick up to those idiots, being nice to people includes letting them live their lives and spell things shorthanded etc rather then spending more time on computer typing and not out skiing, sorry you failed to know the difference between defending people who can’t defend themselves


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## XTski

MC2 said:


> I’m not offended, someone else in the thread was.
> 
> But you do realize that some things are offensive (you, personally, are offended by “jokes about physically impaired people like.. ski talk by pug”). You appear to be getting offended by some words too.
> 
> My general strategy is to just try to be nice to people. It’s not that hard.


Try closing your eyes and do anything, see how it goes, it didn’t offend me, it pissed me off that a ski site promotes jokes making fun of impaired people, they actually took down a post trying to promote helping blind people, after a few years on that site I stopped posting there , snow is an equlizer where physically impaired people can do things as well as non impaired people


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## tirolski

Tyroleans been “discriminated" against many years, they just stay in the mountains, make wine & cider, good food and ski.
In Italy they also have they their own recognized autonomous zone. Haven’t heard bout them bitchin much other than closing the lifts.


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## MC2

XTski said:


> it didn’t offend me, it pissed me off that a ski site promotes jokes making fun of impaired people


Yeah, that was my point. Not sure who you are arguing with at this point.


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## jt10000

Scrundy said:


> 99.9% of people don’t give a crap if a person is gay, straight, brown, yellow or trans.


No, that's false. Homophobia, racism and transphobia are common in the US - we know this both from social scientists and from the lived experiences of gay people, people of color, and of transgender people.


Scrundy said:


> I was born ugly with a small penis, should I get special treatment? I think not.


So you think people not making fun of you for the way you were born is "special treatment"? I think it's basic human decency.


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## Kingslug

This looks interesting: 

https://www.subaru.com/something-wild

I like my regular old outback so this would be a big improvement. Just have to wait for the old one to blow up.


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## Harvey

I was in an all day biz conference yesterday and I missed all this until now.

Personally I like the ground clearance discussion, but I have no idea how to break this out. If Camp is ok with it, I'll start with this post and make him the owner and move it to the OT, figure out some kind of name for it and lock it.

I never thought twice about the word in discussion, and when it's used in the context of car/trucks I never think (thought until now) of other meanings.

I also didn't know it was offensive. Websters doesn't mention that it is offense, but Wiki does. Websters doesn't even acknowledge the vehicle slang meaning.

Generally one thing I've tried to do in life is determine the intent. If someone has hate in their heart, you can tell. Ethan was clearly not slagging on anyone so I don't find it offensive.

People are sensitive about all kinds of things, it's part of human nature. It doesn't make them bad or good, just human. In the forum, the most common reason people quit is they don't feel welcome or accepted.

ETA: If someone TELLS me they are offended by something, I will do my very best to stop using it. When I was in high school a million years ago we'd say something was gay and it was kind of a rag. I've never had any hate for gay people, but I stopped using it that way twenty years ago. It might be different for the T word. In my experience gay people are ok with being referred to as gay.


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## trackbiker

A few years ago someone pointed to me that "Oriental" was offensive. I stopped using it except for when I am referring to the rugs in my house. In that context I guess it is OK. 
It really comes down to context and intent. No one using the "T" word in context to a vehicle had anything on their mind other than a shorter term for transmission.


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## G.ski

This thread is getting very AZ like. Maybe we should move it over there.


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## Kingslug

From cars to ????
oy....vey.....


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## Harvey

If you are dismayed, let it go, stick to ground clearance.


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## Campgottagopee

riverc0il said:


> Really disappointing to see fellow forum members slagging off on a brand new forum member. If you don't understand why the issue is important to the poster, then just drop it, disregard, and move on. No need to pile on.
> 
> Back to digging up this old topic...
> 
> 
> 
> I will eat crow on this post. There definitely is a ground clearance level that is too low for hassle free parking and storm chasing. My 2017 Honda Civic Hatch is quoted at 5.2" (suspect), and that drops a bit lower with a driver and their gear. It is just a bit too low.
> 
> I've beached the thing twice trying to park in unplowed snow (nothing too deep, but obviously deeper than the ground clearance). That is a concern when you are looking to earn turns and are parking in places not plowed as well as a parking lot.
> 
> During a particularly manky storm with bad plowing, I was getting tossed around due to not enough clearance and opted to bail on the drive (that was a first). I've been chasing storms in sedans, coupes, and wagons for over 20 years and never had any issues snow tires couldn't handle, before that instance.
> 
> On the flip side, my VW TDI wagen was listed at 5.4" and that thing was an absolute tank in the snow (FWD). So perhaps there are other issues besides the ground clearance at play. Likely, manufacturers are not consistent on their measurement methods (I really doubt my Civic is actually 5.2" off the ground). +7" might be the sweet spot for not too high but not too low.
> 
> Much as I love the overall lifetime 37.3 MPG of my Civic, I'm looking for something new this summer. There are a lot of lifted hatches and crossovers with AWD and good MPG now. That wasn't the case a few years ago when good MPG and AWD were mutually exclusive. Then again, there are also a ton of options with highway MPG topping out at only 28-30, which is still terrible.


Whatever 
Someone new comes in here and says I'm offended by the word tranny in a ground clearance discussion? Said person needs to, like I suggested, have just a wee bit more thicker skin here or should move on to another site imo. Good grief.


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## Campgottagopee

jt10000 said:


> It's wild that six people have jumped up to push back against my simply *asking.* I would have thought that if someone didn't care they'd just move on. And it's really ironic that yall that seem so triggered by my asking are suggesting *I'm* the one who is butthurt or thin skinned. That's funny. If a request like that annoyed me or bothered me I'd do some self-reflection. YMMV.
> 
> No, I'm not transgender myself (and am not MC2). But I know transgender people (you may also, even if you don't realize it) and they face a lot. Language matters. So I care. I wish more people cared.



A couple years ago I smoked a big fat joint with a tranny while in P Town on vacation.. His name was Bob Stacey but all his friends called him Stacey. He was a great guy and had killer weed. My wife and I quickly became friends with Stacey as he was our neighbor at the place we were renting, right on the ocean too. Anyway, I asked Stacey how I should address someone in drag as I had zero clue. He told me the polite way was to address them as Miss, and if you thought they were beautiful to call them Mary. To this day my wife and I call each other Mary, and people get a real kick out of hearing the story as to why we do. Anyway, my point is I know for a fact Stacey would not be offended by the word tranny used in the context it has been in this thread. Please relax and enjoy this place as there are many wicked smart people here, with quick wit, and thick skin.


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## Harvey

Kingslug said:


> This looks interesting:
> 
> https://www.subaru.com/something-wild
> 
> I like my regular old outback so this would be a big improvement. Just have to wait for the old one to blow up.



Everyone is around 8 or 8.5. That thing is 9.5. I wonder if that really makes a difference?

?


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## Frk

Campgottagopee said:


> Whatever
> Someone new comes in here and says I'm offended by the word tranny in a ground clearance discussion? Said person needs to, like I suggested, have just a wee bit more thicker skin here or should move on to another site imo. Good grief.


Last time you threatened someone when you didn’t like what they said. That’s your M.O. you’re thin skinned. Like I said before, why don’t you take a break from this forum.


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## gorgonzola

W... T....F....?

sorry carry on


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## Harvey

It's got to be some kind of first in forum history, locking a thread about ground clearance.


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## TheGreatAbyss

OP here - Didn't even know this thread was still going.

I bought a Golf Alltrack two and a half years ago and love it, it's a fantastic ski car. I switch out the stock 18s for 16 inch EuroWinters every season, and the 7 inches of ground clearance has never been an issue. I've been surprised how well it does in foot+ deep snow. The roof height is about 6 or 7 inches lower than the current-gen Outback which for a shorter guy like me has been key. It's also super comfortable with 4-way lumbar support, and ACC which makes long highway trips so much easier.

It's not huge though, if I have a second kid we may need to buy a bigger car at some point. But that's years off and TBD if it replaces the Alltrack or it just becomes the second the car.


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## TheGreatAbyss

Also FWIW I find the Outback to be a bit wobbly and top heavy with it's 9 inches of GC. Yes it's better in deeper snow, but a car lower to the ground is better slick conditions.


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## Campgottagopee

TheGreatAbyss said:


> Also FWIW I find the Outback to be a bit wobbly and top heavy with it's 9 inches of GC.



Interesting. I've never heard of anyone say that before. I've always felt/heard they're more or less a solid car on the road.


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## TheGreatAbyss

Campgottagopee said:


> Interesting. I've never heard of anyone say that before. I've always felt/heard they're more or less a solid car on the road.


At least the one I rented from Calgary international felt that way when driving around BC


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## Peter Minde

My Outback never felt wobbly or top heavy. Only vehicle I've had with sufficient ground clearance for the Diamond Notch trail head in the Catskills.

On the T word, since the 70s I only ever construed it as short for transmission.


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## Kingslug

I commute every day to the city in one..and have to go at warp speeds to not get hit by the loonies..and it handles pretty well. Even with snow tires.


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## TheGreatAbyss

It's all relative. After driving around a Nissan Armada in Jackson Hole for a week my Alltrack felt like a Miata. 
If you're coming from a Miata I'm sure my Alltrack feels like the Armada.


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## Campgottagopee

TheGreatAbyss said:


> It's all relative. After driving around a Nissan Armada in Jackson Hole for a week my Alltrack felt like a Miata.
> If you're coming from a Miata I'm sure my Alltrack feels like the Armada.


Right it's all what you're used to. I've been driving full-size 4X4 for so long I can't imagine changing. I could wheel an A8 or something like that tho ?


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## Kingslug

A WRX would be cool to blow around in the snow with..always liked those..and you can tell them coming from a mile away.


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