# The New Normal



## Harvey

I'm kinda considered the paranoid one in our family. But the truth is *I'm not scared of dying and I don't really care.*

I'm more concerned about America. TRUTH.

Tonight was our first time dining out at a restaurant. Neve said to me: "dad can you please not be a nightmare tonight?"

I didn't want to go, hey I LIKE being at home. But I got out voted.

Pro Tip: when it's 90 something out, reserve a table _in the shade. _

All the shade tables were gone, but we were all alone baking in the sun. It was kind of slow. I felt bad for the waiter, wearing his mask doing the best he could in the heat. Didn't seem like he was going to be making much money.

The food was excellent. I just got some wings but the margaritas I had really took the edge off. ( Zelda was driving.)




Veal Parm FKNA

When we got the check there was a printed note in it.

"Please leave the servers tip in cash. It really helps."

I burst out laughing. It seemed funny as hell to me. Maybe it was the margaritas.

I never used to carry cash, but now I've been walking around with a bunch of cash that I took out for a ski trip back in MARCH. Still sitting in my wallet.

It didn't even feel like real money. Never use cash anymore, it has cooties.

Being a good American, I left an insane tip that confused the hell out of the guy. I think he thought I was trying to split the check between the credit card and the cash.

All in all, if I don't end up dying of the rona, I'd call it a good night.

You getting back out there? Tell your tale.


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## Brownski

My kids have been back in restaurants. I haven’t. We’ve been eating lots of takeout to try and support the locals though. Danger Boy is a big tipper.


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## Peter Minde

Have enjoyed a couple of pints at the local nano brewery. Can't see dining out outdoors in this weather.


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## Sick Bird Rider

We are really ramping it up here in the Hinterlands. Dined out last week for the first time since, I don't know, January. Went well, outdoor service only. I was a bit nervous but felt good about it at the end. Got our first take-out a few days ago for my birthday. Went reasonably well. This weekend was a biggie, we had our first house guest, a long time friend of Blue Toes. We agreed beforehand that she is in our "bubble" and behaved accordingly. Felt good to have other people around. It is all very weird.


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## jasonwx

just doing take out every now and then..not ready to sit in a restaurant ,in or out..


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## Campgottagopee

We've been dining outside once a week ever since it's been allowed. I enjoy going out for dinner and a couple of drinks, I hate doing dishes. I also think it's important to support our local restaurants as they've been hit hard during this pandemic. I feel bad that one of our favorite restaurants doesn't have outdoor seating but we still get takeout from them. Their veal parm is damn good too and the old fashions are delicious ?. For the most part everyone has been respectful of each other's space. Hopefully this continues when college kids come back.


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## MarzNC

First take-out dinner my household did was take out from a place 2-min from our house (near Raleigh, NC) back in early April, mostly to support a local business. I went inside to pick up the order my husband placed by phone. All the tables were pushed to the side and the two other people picking up orders stayed as far away as possible. I wore a mask and gloves back then. They were doing curbside pickup too. In general, our neighborhood is affluent and people have been sensible from early on.

Had five people in my house from early March thru late April. My bachelor BIL from MN spends the winter with us and my daughter's BF got stranded when UNCA closed down after spring break so we hosted him as well. I've never cooked for five adults on a regular basis before. Only had to deal with dinner. Everyone was on their own for other meals.

In May and June I went to Asheville, NC a couple times, and also did a long drive with friends to Lake Placid. Have eaten outdoors in Asheville at a small favorite ramen shop, but mostly doing take out. When staying at a big house in Lake Placid, we mostly cooked but also did take out. My favorite dinner was take-and-bake and pies from Cedar Run Bakery and Market.

The friends who joined me and my daughter in Lake Placid are two families with tween/teen kids. We merged bubbles by late April. Also a friend who is also a North Country School alum we know well drove up from Boston. We had a fabulous week the week before July 4 at a huge house on a private lake. We mostly did stuff on the North Country School/Camp Treetops campus, such as horseback riding a couple mornings. Treetops decided to cancel the camp programs quite a while ago.


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## Warp daddy

Other than golf and biking NOPE .

Altho we had a few of The Queen's tennis buddies over after a match for a dessert and coffee . And this week my SIL was here for a visit and lunch he was here from Ma.to see his parents


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## Tjf1967

The new normal is weird and it sucks, OK I said it. I don't think it is going away anytime soon. I went out to eat a month or so ago and wont be doing that again. I do take out at the local place. The amount of money I spent on beer I now give as a tip. I take calculated risks, playing golf, biking, visiting with Family, funerals. Other than that I do work around the house. The house has never looked better!!


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## wonderpony

I don't go out much. I am an empty nester, with a horse, and get up early to ride before work. Bedtime is 9 pm. The best thing about working from home has been being able to sleeping a whopping in 12 minutes and still get to ride longer.

I am just hoping to be able to ski. I am hoping that the resorts can stay open by putting fewer people on the lifts and allow us to wear masks on the way up, that we can take off when we start skiing. If not, I will have to resurrect my cross-country skills. The last time I had to go down a 6 foot hill on my cross countries, I wiped out. Twice.

My biggest concern is keeping my 80 year old dad safe. My son is a construction manager and is on site in NJ with 175 people daily, and then comes home on the weekends. The students are returning to Ithaca. Our numbers are going up. I will stay put as much as possible.

WP


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## NYSnowflake

We have not been to a restaurant since March. I do a lot of gardening. I grew dahlias, canna lilies, and zinnias for the first time this year. We play croquet in the yard. I took up tennis. I recently started riding horses again. I can’t complain. We have a comfortable situation to hunker down during the pandemic. We are both working from home.


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## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> The new normal is weird and it sucks, OK I said it. I don't think it is going away anytime soon.



Agree 100%

My buddy who owns a bowling alley is really F'd, he has no idea when he'll be able to open. That can not be a good feeling.


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## Scrundy

New normal? Not much has changed for me other than the mask crap. I always avoided crowds so not a problem for me. I’ve eaten out many many times and been to public swimming areas. Yet still able to get my beer from local micro brew, so I’m good. Also not afraid to go out in public or shake a old friends hand. Live life don’t fear it


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## Green light

I still get half way to the store and remember I forgot my mask. Back to the truck I go.


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## Harvey

My wife bought a bunch, put like 5 in my car, some in my computer bag. She's stashed them everywhere. Saves me a bunch of the aggravation that comes with forgetting.


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## The UNHOLY

I was born to social distance, I practiced a lot before current events. Love take-out !


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## Adirondack Johnny

I only stayed home for 2 weeks when the wife had covid. Other than that, I have been busier than ever with this covid shit. 
I finally caved and bought a 16 pack of these. Otherwise it was bandanas everywhere for me.
Pro tip: Don't worry about your breath if you have a meeting. The mask takes care of that.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Firm-Grip-Reusable-Face-Mask-16-Pack-63332-42/313889825


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## Campgottagopee

The UNHOLY said:


> I was born to social distance



LOL
Same here ?


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## Campgottagopee

Those of you with kids how do you feel about school this year. Are you happy with the reopening plan? One local district is having 50% of the kids attending Mon, Tues, the other 50% attending Thur, Fri, and all attend Wednesday online. I know if I had kids I'd be very concerned about them going back.


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## Harvey

That's pretty close to our plan too.

I think the school is required to provide busing. What they've done is given us the option of driving our kids, which I'll do. But if you are unable your kid can ride the bus.

The problem I see is that 60% of everyone maintaining distance isn't enough.

So yea I'm concerned. 

There are other health issues our daughter is facing that are exacerbated by the isolation she is experiencing. Personally, I'm with some of you, the whole isolation thing doesn't change my life very much. I'm getting more exercise too.


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## Brownski

I’m glad the schools are reopening. They completely dropped the ball on remote learning last year. There was no accountability and the kids were just pushed through to avoid conflict with parents. I consider schools essential. Imagine if cops or nurses didn’t show up to work. It’s the same thing.


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## The UNHOLY

My kids are in elementary school, myself and my wife work ....if they have any remote learning - it's not going to work for us, I can't be home schooling and working from home at the same time.


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## Scrundy

Campgottagopee said:


> Those of you with kids how do you feel about school this year. Are you happy with the reopening plan? One local district is having 50% of the kids attending Mon, Tues, the other 50% attending Thur, Fri, and all attend Wednesday online. I know if I had kids I'd be very concerned about them going back.


Yeah I do as it stands now she will be back full time. I’m fine with it the numbers don’t support the panic. She has been going to daycare all summer without any problems at facility. I feel she needs to mingle to mature more than being stuck at home. Momma agrees that being quarantined dose more harm then good.


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## Peter Minde

> Those of you with kids how do you feel about school this year. Are you happy with the reopening plan? One local district is having 50% of the kids attending Mon, Tues, the other 50% attending Thur, Fri, and all attend Wednesday online. I know if I had kids I'd be very concerned about them going back.



In NJ, they'll release guidelines for the new school year next week. I don't want our daughter back in school full time, and I don't think that will happen.


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## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> Those of you with kids how do you feel about school this year. Are you happy with the reopening plan?


I realize you were asking for K-12 in NY. I'm past that but paying attention around Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill because I have friends with kids. Even though the local counties and Chapel Hill were going to open with hybrid plans, that changed with the increase in cases in recent weeks. Now all will be virtual for at least the first two months. Schools typically open by the third week of August in NC. So really too soon. The hybrid plans varied a lot. Durham was going to keep G9-12 virtual and use the high school buildings for K-8 students. Durham is essentially an urban county. The Wake County plan was 1 week in class and 2 weeks at home. Wake is a very large county with urban and rural areas.

All the Univ. of NC campuses are opening up a week early. Classes will run August 10 thru Nov. 20, followed by a long winter break. My daughter is at UNC Asheville, which is a relatively small college. Only 4000 undergraduates and very few grad students. She switched from living in a dorm suite on campus to a bedroom in a student apartment complex that goes with a private bathroom. She's taking four courses, and only one will meet on campus once or twice a week.

The plan for UNCA includes a "contract" of sorts that sets expectations. There is a fair amount of info on a special website for COVID-19 adjustments, including short videos. Obviously a lot of discussion since the spring. I'm pretty comfortable with the plans. Asheville has been doing reasonably well in terms of case counts. Plus we've been there a couple times during the summer so have seen first hand how people are acting.


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## Harvey

B&W with the most friendly "Keep Out" sign

Food was good as always. Basically takeout, with a bunch of distant tables in the yard, welcome to use them.

Maybe a little weird, but good at the same time.


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## Peter Minde

Yesterday on the way home, I stopped at Woodstock Brewing in Phoenicia. I was comfortable with the distance between outdoor tables. There's restaurants in NJ where the tables seem way too close together.


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## marcski

Harvey said:


> That's pretty close to our plan too.
> 
> So yea I'm concerned.
> 
> Personally, I'm with some of you, the whole isolation thing doesn't change my life very much. I'm getting more exercise too.



Our schools also announced a similar schedule. I'm definitely concerned for her safety and, of course, our entire families as a result. I would hope that the schools took this summer to ramp up the ability for distance learning. I mean, either way there was going to be some form of it for this coming semester, if not the entire school year. 

As for me, if I'm not skiing or biking, I am fine with just my dog and a few of life's other comforts.


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## jasonwx

I'm suppose to start a cooking job for a college on Aug 17th..Who knows how all that will play out...


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## Warp daddy

Hope it works out for you jason


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## Harvey

Vail is betting that disinfection technology will make school, buildings safer during coronavirus
					

VAIL — Brian Counselman removes a panel from an intake vent beneath Vail Mountain School and a purple glow emanates from the duct.  “Please don’t ask me the specifics on this,” says the longtime facilities manager of the 100,000 square-foot building.  The specifics of the Synexis Dry Hydrogen...




					coloradosun.com


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## jasonwx

Warp daddy said:


> Hope it works out for you jason


Thanks!!!


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## x10003q

Our school is mornings only, half the school every other day, and home for lunch. All students are remote in the afternoon. We do have the option to go full remote.


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## tirolski

Normal is over-rated. Golf game is getting better. Waiting patiently for snow and doin some blueberry pickin yoga.


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## raisingarizona

I’m actually having one of the best years of my life. I’ve finally found my dream job and I’m traveling every week to build bike trails while working in the field. I live in the outdoors more than in my own home.

thank god I didn’t become a nurse, every nurse I know hates their jobs now.

I’ve also rediscovered mountain biking after a few years of feeling burned out and bored. Now that I’m traveling and building I’m in the best shape I’ve been in 10 years. I can hammer again!

i miss going out to a couple of places to eat but it’s not a big deal for us.

I think Cody will be doing on line classes but we’re not sure yet.

I could spend a winter without skiing honestly. I’ve been looking for an excuse to spend time to the south and explore by foot and bike. 

I’ve read that unless you’re over 65 years old you are more likely to die today from a car accident than covid and the numbers imho seem to reflect that. I don’t feel scared of it anymore and besides, I’m 98% sure that I already had it.


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## DMC_Hunter

Watch out golfers...
Virus spike in Columbia County traced to golfing


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## Warp daddy

DMC_Hunter said:


> Watch out golfers...
> Virus spike in Columbia County traced to golfing




Interesting story : never thought of the potential effects from golfing BUT it is one of the reasons i no longer play league golf or tournaments , strictly play with one guy ' two carts ........or play single if i have no partner . 

I am a weirdo that prefers to play pretty fast pace ya know impatient SOB ??. Also prefer to play several different course weekly for variety and avoid density


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## Campgottagopee

I wish the new normal was as broad as it is. We are not NYC. There are local businesses that desperately need to open up here.


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## Harvey

What is open vs closed right now?

This is part of the new normal I guess. No Ski Deals to report:


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## The UNHOLY

I had a talk with a Whiteface employee - skiing will be very different this year. They are still trying to figure out how to deal with people's ski bags, the cafeteria, how to serve food, how to sit people and how to run ski programs. They still need to figure out how to reduce the capacity of people in the lodges. If you are the type of person that gets ready at your car, has a lift pass and just jumps right on - probably business as usual. If you rely on the food, lodging or programs - you could be in for a good change. At this point, the gondola will run as well as the lifts, but they will no longer be forcing you to ride with other people. You ride with your family or people you agree to.
Much of it, is in limbo as they are waiting on guidance and instruction from New York State.


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> What is open vs closed right now?
> 
> This is part of the new normal I guess. No Ski Deals to report:
> 
> View attachment 3780



I was primarily speaking for my buddy who owns a bowling alley, but there are also bars that have been closed. I'd rather see them allowed to open, then leave it up to the owners and their patrons to follow the guidelines. If they don't at that point close them down. With the kind of numbers we're seeing here it makes sense, or at least to me, to let them conduct business. Friday we're going to one of our favorite restaurants, even though they don't have outside seating. We know the owner and know how serious he has been taking this. We made that decision based on the numbers we see along with knowing this guy won't be cutting any corners.


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## Harvey

The UNHOLY said:


> You ride with your family or people you agree to.



IMO this is the only method with a chance to work. Subject to a few questions:

What is that density? Can ski areas operate at that number, for one year, and stay solvent?

And of course, is that density compatible with distancing?


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## Brownski

Camp
I agree with you 100%. 
Harv
I don’t think distancing in the lift line will really be possible but as long as everybody wears a mask, I won’t be worried about catching covid. Inside the lodge is a whole different thing. That needs some hard logical thinking applied. Personally I’ll be booting up at the car and bringing lunch.


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## Harvey

Right.

I assume Lodge/F&B revenue will be way down, just a fraction of a normal year.

I also assume that the lift loading method (you choose your group) is the only way that could work, from a customer perspective.

So, _assuming it's just one season_, how hard will it hit different ski areas? And will skiers spread covid by skiing?

I don't think we know. At least I don't.

Has anyone seen a mask specifically for skiing? One that you could keep on or pull down over your nose when you are apart?


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## Brownski

Yes


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## gorgonzola

I've been using my ski "buffs" as covid masks. I typically don't ski with one unless its sub zero but i guess I'll be wearing one this year (hopefullly)


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## MarzNC

DMC_Hunter said:


> Watch out golfers...
> Virus spike in Columbia County traced to golfing


Wonder how much of the transmission of was when golf was being played versus off the greens and fairways.

Does seem as if Columbina County is on top of contact tracing.

_" . . ._​_One of the golf gatherings that led to the rise in active cases in the county was held the weekend of July 10-11 and another was held the following Friday, on July 24. Neither event was an organized tournament, Mabb said._​_. . ._​_Officials believe that the golfers who spread the COVID-19 virus were not wearing masks or social distancing during the outdoor gatherings._​​_“This outbreak is the likely result of a group of friends getting together and not doing what they should have done when off the course,” Mabb said._​_. . ."_​


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Right.
> 
> I assume Lodge/F&B revenue will be way down, just a fraction of a normal year.
> 
> I also assume that the lift loading method (you choose your group) is the only way that could work, from a customer perspective.
> 
> So, _assuming it's just one season_, how hard will it hit different ski areas? And will skiers spread covid by skiing?
> 
> I don't think we know. At least I don't.
> 
> Has anyone seen a mask specifically for skiing? One that you could keep on or pull down over your nose when you are apart?


No need for a special mask for skiing. Any buff that is pulled up over the mouth and nose is fine. Best to have an extra or two and change if gets wet.

There are a few Australian ski resorts that have been operating since late June. One is owned by Vail Resorts, one is a destination resort on Ikon, and a couple others are smaller. I've been following closely on the Aussie ski forum (been around since the 1990s). There were no issues with COVID-19 in July. While Australia thought they had COVID-19 under control, recent outbreaks have shown that community spread had happened and was simply undetected.

Being outdoors makes a big difference in the likelihood of transmission by aerosols. Face coverings of any kind that cover nose and mouth make it that much less likely that someone who is infected and doesn't know it is going to spread virus in a way that someone else gets it into their body.

Like golf, the issue is less about what people are engaged in the sport and more about what they do . . . or don't . . . when at a resort but not skiing.


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## Campgottagopee

The UNHOLY said:


> I had a talk with a Whiteface employee - skiing will be very different this year. They are still trying to figure out how to deal with people's ski bags, the cafeteria, how to serve food, how to sit people and how to run ski programs. They still need to figure out how to reduce the capacity of people in the lodges. If you are the type of person that gets ready at your car, has a lift pass and just jumps right on - probably business as usual. If you rely on the food, lodging or programs - you could be in for a good change. At this point, the gondola will run as well as the lifts, but they will no longer be forcing you to ride with other people. You ride with your family or people you agree to.
> Much of it, is in limbo as they are waiting on guidance and instruction from New York State.



I feel for those schlepping kids around to begin with, the thought of it now would be enough for me to not even bother going. 

Not much will change for me. I don't travel to ski and will continue to boot up in my living room then go skiing.


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## DMC_Hunter

Feels like we are in a bubble here in the Catskills..


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## gorgonzola

Interestingly I've been approached by a few folks ("Hey you're a skier right?...") wanting to know if they should take advantage of the pass deals (see Harv's Ad post) since they either don't think winter scholastic sports will happen and if they do, don't feel comfortable with their kid wrestling etc. I think a lot of people/families will be looking to start or resume skiing just like biking and camping this summer.... added demand and restrictions gonna be a shit show


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## Harvey

Agree. I recommend a Plattekill pass.


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## DMC_Hunter

The problem really isn't with us skiers and riders - we can mask up and be outside.. It's all the people that work at the ski areas needed to run the places.. 
When I was in CO when this shit broke - it was all the employees that were testing positive at Vail resorts not guests.


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## Brownski

DMC_Hunter said:


> The problem really isn't with us skiers and riders - we can mask up and be outside.. It's all the people that work at the ski areas needed to run the places..
> When I was in CO when this shit broke - it was all the employees that were testing positive at Vail resorts not guests.


To be fair though: If a guest picked it up at the resort, they were probably back home before they knew they were sick.


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## marcski

I highly doubt I will enter a base (or summit) lodge this winter.


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## MarzNC

DMC_Hunter said:


> When I was in CO when this shit broke - it was all the employees that were testing positive at Vail resorts not guests.


There were people who returned to Australia or Mexico after skiing at destination resorts in Feb who tested positive. I know of at least two Californians who were at Vail in Feb and had symptoms after returning home. One eventually confirmed with an antibody test that COVID-19 was the cause. The outbreak in Mexico City in March was clearly started by rich people who enjoyed their annual trip to Vail in late Feb. Some who died early on worked in those households after they went home and infected their families and small towns.

A positive test means a detected case. The entire problem with COVID-19 is how many people are infectious without knowing it because they have very mild symptoms, or mild symptoms that don't seem any different than a normal flu. They end up fine, but potentially infect others, and that increases the chance that someone who is at higher risk of moderate or severe illness ends up sick with COVID-19.


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## marcski

A lot of the problems also stem from the inaccuracy of the tests. False positives, False negatives, etc.

Edit: There are so many stories and studies to this effect, I was thinking of the Ohio Gov being pos one day and neg the next. 

Then this pops up in a news feed 10 mins after my original post.









Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ‘Completely Garbage’


The techie-turned-philanthropist on vaccines, Trump, and why social media is “a poisoned chalice.”




www.wired.com


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## MarzNC

marcski said:


> A lot of the problems also stem from the inaccuracy of the tests. False positives, False negatives, etc.


Even for good tests, timing is tricky. Someone who doesn't have symptoms might be infected but not have quite enough virus to test positive. A day or two after a negative test, they could well test positive but still be pre-symptomatic. Needless to say few people are going to keep getting tested every 1-2 days after they first suspect that they might have been exposed to COVID-19.

Have long since lost count of the different types of tests that the FDA approved on an emergency basis. Never mind the number of labs doing a specific type of test.


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## DMC_Hunter




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## MarzNC

This was floating around back in April when the idea of non-medical face coverings started up.


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## MarzNC

What NC public health came up with a while back. Really need to do all three. For me, staying farther away from people I don't know is more important than worrying about exactly what type of mask I'm wearing or whether or not the stranger is wearing a mask of any kind. Doesn't mean I'm just staying home though. Means I pick where I go more deliberately, whether it's for grocery shopping, getting food prepared by a restaurant, or stopping for a restroom when driving away from home.


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## Warp daddy

Re that face mask meme , Bravo Marz !!,???


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## MarzNC

Issues with huge numbers of test have made headlines since March. However, I never thought about how the test samples were getting to the labs. Turns out that there are small airplanes doing the pickups and deliveries at night for Quest, one of the larger commercial lab companies. The first few minutes are a good summary of why COVID-19 is a problem and not "just like the flu."


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## Brownski

For what it’s worth








						Scientists tested 14 types of masks — here are the ones that worked and didn’t
					

Bandannas, gaiters and knitted masks are some of the least effective face coverings for preventing the spread of coronavirus, according to a new study. Researchers at Duke University made the disco…




					nypost.com


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## Harvey

Not sure I am getting the important info, which masks are better.


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Not sure I am getting the important info, which masks are better.


Assuming what you want is something for everyday use, not a medical grade N95 face mask, it's the material that makes a difference. Multiple layers are better. Non-stretchy cotton is better. That's why a buff that's synthetic and stretchy isn't as effective. Also a buff will be less effective when it's worn in the rain or long enough to get damp while exercising.

The point of a non-medical mask is to reduce the aerosols you are putting out, and droplets if you cough or sneeze. It's not going to give that much protection if you are in a place with lots of SARS-CoV-2 floating around. That's why keeping a safe distance from strangers is as important as wearing a face covering. Put another way, it's good to stay away from places where there are a lot of people not wearing masks. It's virtually impossible to know for sure that no one there is infected enough to be shedding virus. Remember that someone with no symptoms is contagious for 2-4 days, and may not notice mild symptoms after that.

In my experience the past few months, when I'm wearing a mask of any kind then other people tend to stay farther away. So for an outdoor setting, it really doesn't matter that a buff isn't as effective as a 3-layer cotton face mask. For indoor situations, I'm using a face mask made of cotton. I don't sew. Bought a few different styles off Etsy to figure out which design works best for me. One size does NOT fit all.


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## Harvey

I get all that.

And I watched the mask thing by Dr Whatshisname the Science Guy.

I have a bunch of #1s I use. I also have some #6s and #10s.

The article would be more valuable if it matched a picture with a rating.


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> The article would be more valuable if it matched a picture with a rating.


It's the NY Post. I was more interested in reading the original report by the Duke researchers.


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## Harvey

I read the original article, see my links above. Probably not as carefully as you did. I still didn't see a clear correlation.

Our biggest problem is a lack of clear messaging.


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I read the original article, see my links above. Probably not as carefully as you did. I still didn't see a clear correlation.
> 
> Our biggest problem is a lack of clear messaging.


Nothing about COVID-19 is clear, meaning from a medical or clinical standpoint. It's still much too new and is very different from other coronavirus. That was part of the problem back in January. No one in Europe could imagine people being contagious for days without any symptoms. After February, it took a while for medical folks to realize COVID-19 isn't a pulmonary disease. Treating it as a vascular disease had made a difference in recent months. Now the problem is that there are so many studies and scientific reports coming out it's hard to follow the changes.

SARS and MERS are far deadlier but people are only contagious when they had symptoms. So isolating people who were sick was enough to get local outbreak under control fairly quickly. Same was true of during the 1918 pandemic. That lasted until 1920 but in relatively few places after Summer 1919.

What is clear is that if most people kept their distance from strangers, wore face coverings when away from home, and washed their hands fairly frequently, then community transmission would be far less.


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## Brownski

The bottom line of that study is that fleece is worse then no mask at all. Bandanas aren’t very good. Cotton masks apparently work better.


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## Harvey

The bottom line is that there are many different kinds of mask, some more effective than others.

I understand now that fleece is the worst (not a huge surprise), but I'd like to know how the other 15 rank.

I want pictures and diagrams and the group W bench.


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## MarzNC

Don't know if this is behind the paywall or not, but this August 10 article is all about the different styles of face masks. Makes sense to me to use different styles for different purposes. Has a list of references and names of people interviewed.









						The Best Reusable Face Masks
					

The “best” cloth face mask is the one you’ll wear (and not fuss with). Here’s how to find a mask that fits, filters well, and is reasonably comfortable.




					www.nytimes.com
				



_" . . ._​_If you find a mask you love, it may be best to buy multiples of that style. You may also consider collecting a handful of different styles because each kind is more or less practical for different situations. The mask you might choose to wear for a trip to the grocery store, for example, isn’t necessarily the same type you’d reach for when exercising._​​_Gather a range of materials and mask shapes. And be realistic about what you’ll be willing to wear in different situations. Try a new-to-you mask on at home so that you can evaluate the fit and your comfort before wearing it in public. If you can buy more than one mask type, consider choosing one with a top layer treated in such a way as to prevent droplets from soaking in._​_. . ."_​


----------



## Campgottagopee

New York City’s Downward Spiral | National Review
					

The true believers who remain are enthusiastic leftists who justify — or welcome — the dissolution of law and order.




					www.nationalreview.com
				




What's going on here? I hope this is BS. While I'm not a big city guy, this is disappointing if it's true. I truly have enjoyed my visits to NYC and never felt threatened.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

Campgottagopee said:


> New York City’s Downward Spiral | National Review
> 
> 
> The true believers who remain are enthusiastic leftists who justify — or welcome — the dissolution of law and order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's going on here? I hope this is BS. While I'm not a big city guy, this is disappointing if it's true. I truly have enjoyed my visits to NYC and never felt threatened.



NYC is nuts right now - think about being in a small apartment - pretty much trapped.. We rented our Brooklyn apartment out for the summer and haven't been back. But it's almost like it was expected to be nuts. I think a lot of it is hype from what I hear from my friends in NYC. I bet some more entitled neighborhoods (upper west side, etc...) are reporting more shit going down that makes them uncomfortable. But homeless people are freaking out - feeling emboldened on empty streets. And paranoid to go to shelters because of COVID19


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'm glad to hear it's mostly hype. NYC is such a cool place and I def want to go back when the times is right.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm glad to hear it's mostly hype. NYC is such a cool place and I def want to go back when the times is right.


I had dinner in NYC last night with my daughter ..City was quieter but that's not unusual for the summer. Plenty of 20 something all over...Pics from her roof top garden of her building..


----------



## DMC_Hunter

I miss NYC so much.. Watching videos of my out of work musician friends peaceful protesting(masks on) and playing music in the streets is amazing


----------



## Campgottagopee

Great pics Jason. 

D, one thing I most appreciated about the city was the street music. An entire band set up on a street corner and played for 2 hours, it was awesome.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> New York City’s Downward Spiral | National Review
> 
> 
> The true believers who remain are enthusiastic leftists who justify — or welcome — the dissolution of law and order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's going on here? I hope this is BS. While I'm not a big city guy, this is disappointing if it's true. I truly have enjoyed my visits to NYC and never felt threatened.



jfc

This guy complains about politics on the forum, then posts fearmongering bs from the National Review?

uhhhhh....


----------



## Campgottagopee

You are the only one who took it that way. I was asking a 100% serious question, and friends answered my questions. Good luck finding someone to fight with ----- new forum has an ignore feature


----------



## Warp daddy

Johnboy lives in UWS and says this is nonsense as a matter of fact his bitch is that the UBER wealthy are becoming a PIA for other working stiffs who use their vehicles to commute to jobs , the " entitled uber wealthy want less parking and more BIKE LANES ... There are already beaucoup bike lanes and many like JB are healthcare Pros whi cannot work remotely and no longer want to use the subways to commute for safety reasons .

Otherwise this BS is hype ...jes sayin. From one who with his family. Deals with this daily


----------



## DMC_Hunter

Campgottagopee said:


> Great pics Jason.
> 
> D, one thing I most appreciated about the city was the street music. An entire band set up on a street corner and played for 2 hours, it was awesome.



It's happening now... Lots of music going off on the streets because musicians need to play..


----------



## DMC_Hunter

Warp daddy said:


> Johnboy lives in UWS and says this is nonsense as a matter of fact his bitch is that the UBER wealthy are becoming a PIA for other working stiffs who use their vehicles to commute to jobs , the " entitled uber wealthy want less parking and more BIKE LANES ... There are already beaucoup bike lanes and many like JB are healthcare Pros whi cannot work remotely and no longer want to use the subways to commute for safety reasons .
> 
> Otherwise this BS is hype ...jes sayin. From one who with his family. Deals with this daily



I just gave up my CitiBike membership.. I kind of agree about the bike lanes. Most of my friends that are still in NYC are not taking subways and using CitiBikes etc....


----------



## Warp daddy

D: JB uses Citibikes all the time on his days off, Healthcare workers got a year free subscription. He has seen parts of city that he had not seen before even tho he's been there for some time . The bikeways ARE great , but more are NOT needed at the expense of residential parking spaces

He uses the vehicle to get the medical center a 20 minute ride but a 90 minute subway commute door to door .


----------



## Warp daddy

Yo D: u dudes still giggin' ??


----------



## Campgottagopee

DMC_Hunter said:


> It's happening now... Lots of music going off on the streets because musicians need to play..



RT on!

Going to a local outdoor music festival in a couple weeks. Been a long time since I've seen a band, totally looking forward to it.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny




----------



## DMC_Hunter

Warp daddy said:


> Yo D: u dudes still giggin' ??



My girl and I have been doing shows online. Played a small party last weekend as a duo.Have a local gig at a bar as a pickup drummer(outside show) and a gig on Long Island at a party in a couple of weeks.. Should be fun..


----------



## DMC_Hunter

Warp daddy said:


> D: JB uses Citibikes all the time on his days off, Healthcare workers got a year free subscription. He has seen parts of city that he had not seen before even tho he's been there for some time. The bikeways ARE great, but more are NOT needed at the expense of residential parking spaces
> 
> He uses the vehicle to get the medical center a 20 minute ride but a 90 minute subway commute door to door .



We were ridding to a friends house last summer. I was commenting on the awesome parties in the park blasting hiphop. I asked Deb where we were - she said BedSty.. I almost shit myself..


----------



## Warp daddy

DMC_Hunter said:


> My girl and I have been doing shows online. Played a small party last weekend as a duo.Have a local gig at a bar as a pickup drummer(outside show) and a gig on Long Island at a party in a couple of weeks.. Should be fun..
> View attachment 4770



Good on ya bro , makin' sounds and spreadin' joy !


----------



## Warp daddy




----------



## Campgottagopee

lmao ^^^^^^


----------



## Campgottagopee




----------



## Warp daddy

Ok my impression of 2020, substitute "year" for "week"


----------



## marcski

Campgottagopee said:


> New York City’s Downward Spiral | National Review
> 
> 
> The true believers who remain are enthusiastic leftists who justify — or welcome — the dissolution of law and order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's going on here? I hope this is BS. While I'm not a big city guy, this is disappointing if it's true. I truly have enjoyed my visits to NYC and never felt threatened.



I'm sorry, Camp, but I have to agree with MC on this one. That article necessarily raises political issues. First off, the guy should move out of the City and just stay at his beach house on LI. He lives in the same neighborhood that he is complaining about. Obviously he's got $$ but is just a Republican. It's a stupid article. Wow, NYC is a liberal place. What a shocker. Never heard that before. I will end here and refrain from getting into politics.


----------



## Campgottagopee

marcski said:


> I'm sorry, Camp, but I have to agree with MC on this one. That article necessarily raises political issues. First off, the guy should move out of the City and just stay at his beach house on LI. He lives in the same neighborhood that he is complaining about. Obviously he's got $$ but is just a Republican. It's a stupid article. Wow, NYC is a liberal place. What a shocker. Never heard that before. I will end here and refrain from getting into politics.



No need to apologize, guess I should to you if I offended you. Simply put I was shocked to read about a city I truly enjoy going to hell. I was very happy to hear that it was BS. I put that here because I know some of you guys are from down that way and give it to me from the horses mouth. My bad. Peace ✌

Long live NYC ??


----------



## Campgottagopee

Warp daddy said:


> Ok my impression of 2020, substitute "year" for "week"
> 
> View attachment 4830



That's funny!!!

Part of me is getting real tired of hearing teachers complain about going back to work. I mean, do they think they're the only ones who's job got more dangerous/harder??? I know it's not all teachers who are sounding the alarm, but those who are certainly have a large microphone right now.


----------



## Tjf1967

I am of the opinion if they are that concerned over their health opt out of returning to school. When their pay check stops I think they will have a change of heart.


----------



## Big D

Ate outside at Food and Fire reataurant in Johnson city, NY. Sat outside, open air seating. Asked for Ketchap... was given those tiny little packets... was told plastic Ketchap bottles are too dangerous to touch and might be infected with the virus!


----------



## marcski

Campgottagopee said:


> No need to apologize, guess I should to you if I offended you. Simply put I was shocked to read about a city I truly enjoy going to hell. I was very happy to hear that it was BS. I put that here because I know some of you guys are from down that way and give it to me from the horses mouth. My bad. Peace ✌
> 
> Long live NYC ??


You didn't offend me in the least, Camp. And, I don't live in the City but I am a downstater. It's just a stupid article. The city isn't going to shit. It is a high density area and should be diligent and cautious... it's why NY is on the right track with Covid. There is also, as you know, a huge downturn in the economy, which will have an effect in a number of ways, unfortunately, mostly negative.

All good camp!??


----------



## Warp daddy

Class act ?


----------



## MarzNC

Big D said:


> Ate outside at Food and Fire reataurant in Johnson city, NY. Sat outside, open air seating. Asked for Ketchap... was given those tiny little packets... was told plastic Ketchap bottles are too dangerous to touch and might be infected with the virus!


While that might seem silly (it is), I'd rather that a restaurant be more cautious than less. I've eaten indoors with my daughter a couple times while on driving trips in NC in the last couple months, plus once near near home (near Raleigh, NC).

The last experience in central NC is a place I won't return to any time soon. I was driving my daughter back to college in Asheville (about 10 days ago). We had never stopped there before and the food got good reviews. What made made the most uncomfortable was it became clear that the waitresses didn't think face masks are anything but a stupid state regulation. Except for one, they weren't covering their nose and half the time barely covering their mouth. One spent a fair amount of time chatting with one table with a couple of local men who she obviously knew, and her mask wasn't even covering her mouth most of the time as she chatted far closer than six week. None of the few new guests who walked in while we were there had a mask on. The place was large and had ceiling fans, probably only at 10% capacity during lunch time mid-week.

The NC Governor has held firm on keeping bars closed. He got a lot of criticism for that particular component of Phase 2 when it had to be extended past late May. Phase 2 was extended again recently to last until at least Sept. 11. Needless to say, fewer people were complaining loudly when the rules shifted recently so that restaurants weren't allowed to serve alcohol after 11pm because some were staying open late and essentially becoming bars after dinner time. Several local jurisdictions had banned late night alcohol sales earlier. In Orange County, restaurants have to close by 10pm. That rule went into place a few weeks before the UNC Chapel Hill students returned . . . around 25,000 of them, which is close to half the population of the town.

In late July, several states with surging COVID-19 numbers re-closed bars and indoor dining at restaurants. The list included CA, CO, NM, and ID. I'm watching NM closely because I plan to go back to Taos Ski Valley mid-season. In NYC, restaurants and bars remained closed in June and July.

August 12, NY Times
The Nation Wanted to Eat Out Again. Everyone Has Paid the Price.
_Governments and restaurant owners wanted to get back to business. But bars and restaurants have become a focal point for clusters of Covid infections._








						The Nation Wanted to Eat Out Again. Everyone Has Paid the Price. (Published 2020)
					

Governments and restaurant owners wanted to get back to business. But bars and restaurants have become a focal point for clusters of Covid infections.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## MarzNC

An issue for a restaurant is whether or not to tell the public when an employee tests positive. In NC, there have been places that have had to close for a few days or up to the full 14-day quarantine period after a positive test. I think the owners that opt for transparency are going to do better in the long run. Often, the announcement is made on social media like Instagram or Facebook.

July 21, The Charlotte Observer
In Charlotte, restaurants don't have to report COVID cases, yet some do. Why?


https://www.charlotteobserver.com/charlottefive/c5-wellness/article244371827.html


". . .
North Carolina law doesn’t require restaurants to disclose when employees test positive for COVID-19. Yet in Charlotte, some restaurant owners are choosing to tell the public, anyway. As of July 21, at least 15 Charlotte restaurants had made announcements that they would temporarily cease operations after employees tested positive for the novel coronavirus.

“We do not release the names of businesses that have had a positive case of COVID-19 unless there is a public health reason to release the name to the public. We notify every business that has a case among their staff as we investigate and isolate the case, determine who the contacts to the case are, and follow up with those contacts to assure that they are aware and quarantining as appropriate,” an official statement from the Mecklenburg County Department of Public Health said.

The department then works with those businesses to ensure they’re responding appropriately to the situation and will alert customers to a possible exposure if it’s deemed necessary.
. . .
“I believe it’s important to control the narrative of our own restaurant. That way, it’s not being told by word-of-mouth. We all know how the game of telephone can go,” Earley said. [restaurant owner] “It’s best to create your own narrative, and it shows your guests that they’re your main concern, that you have them on your mind and in your heart. We wanted to be the ones to let everyone know what our plan was.”
. . ."


----------



## marcski

You are certainly braver than I! As much as I love food, used to work in the industry and have friends that own restaurants, I will not be dining inside one any time in the foreseeable future. It almost boggles my mind if I run in and pick something up and I see people (diners and even some workers) sitting inside, eating, talking, no masks (or not properly worn) as if nothing is wrong. Am I overly cautious? Perhaps. Does it boggle my mind because I'm crazy...I'm not so sure.


----------



## Warp daddy

marcski said:


> You are certainly braver than I! As much as I love food, used to work in the industry and have friends that own restaurants, I will not be dining inside one any time in the foreseeable future. It almost boggles my mind if I run in and pick something up and I see people (diners and even some workers) sitting inside, eating, talking, no masks (or not properly worn) as if nothing is wrong. Am I overly cautious? Perhaps. Does it boggle my mind because I'm crazy...I'm not so sure.



You simply are being both wise and prudent . We too have not and will not dine INSIDE or outside ANY restaurant until this is safe .


----------



## jasonwx

Warp daddy said:


> You simply are being both wise and prudent . We too have not and will not dine INSIDE or outside ANY restaurant until this is safe .


I have done takeout ..No interest in dinning in or out...


----------



## MarzNC

Best to just watch the video and not worry too much about reading the background. The actual movie is about 8 min. Not necessary to have seen _2001: A Space Odyssey _recently_. _Carefully crafted in NYC this spring.



			2020: AN ISOLATION ODYSSEY : LYDIA CAMBRON


----------



## MarzNC

marcski said:


> You are certainly braver than I!


Not sure that much bravery is required when it comes to dining inside a very empty restaurant for 30-40 min. Staying well informed as more is learned about how SARS-CoV-2 is probably transmitted helps me in terms of deciding what level of risk is likely to exist for a given situation. I read reports and saw videos about the impact of airflow on aerosols and droplets back in March. I don't have a medical background but I do have a research background professionally. As a statistician, I'm pretty good at dealing with uncertainty.

How people decide to live with COVID-19 is going to be based on very personal decisions. There isn't a right way or wrong way to stay healthy, but lots of alternatives that each have pros and cons.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Warp daddy said:


> You simply are being both wise and prudent . We too have not and will not dine INSIDE or outside ANY restaurant until this is safe .



I have dined both inside and outside, go to the diner every Friday AM for breakfast. The cleaning and disinfecting that's going on in between seating's is second to none, people are respecting others space. Going out to eat is something I really enjoy doing and I'm glad I can still do it. 

I did go to a bar that was elbow to elbow ----- I slammed my beer then left. Didn't care for that scene at all.


----------



## Warp daddy

I hear ya big guy . This is a matter of personal choice . You see at 77 after having experienced both open heart surgery and a few related heart incidents i am simply following what i know to be good advice for peeps of a certain age ? with co morbidities


----------



## Campgottagopee

Warp daddy said:


> I hear ya big guy . This is a matter of personal choice . You see at 77 after having experienced both open heart surgery and a few related heart incidents i am simply following what i know to be good advice for peeps of a certain age ? with co morbidities



Rt on!!


----------



## DMC_Hunter

I've been to 2 social functions where I played drums which naturally keeps me distant from people. But after - even with the small crowds when the whiskey kicks in - people start getting closer. So I leave..


----------



## Peter Minde

Warp daddy said:


> View attachment 4828



Word.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Coronavirus in NY: Statewide positive test rate below 1% for 10th day straight


The news on the numbers is all good, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said.




www-syracuse-com.cdn.ampproject.org





Good news


----------



## Campgottagopee

This guy has a very valid point.


----------



## Tjf1967

To me the herd immunity thing is something that needs to happen. What better way to happen then to let kids go to college. Make them stay there, don't let them bring it back home. They are young and will most likely get through it.


----------



## JTG

Most likely.

I don’t disagree with you and we are taking my son back to Plattsburgh on Saturday and my wife and younger son will be in the classroom after Labor Day....and we have chosen not to opt out of doing so, it needs to happen.

That said, most likely doesn’t inspire a ton of confidence when you are talking about your child’s life, potentially.

My boys had physicals last week. Their doctor, whom we trust and respect very much, told us a story about a 17 year old patient she treated. Presented with headaches and high blood pressure (high blood pressure in a young person is very unusual and not good). The mother knew something was off, but it was hard for anyone to confirm or identify what was wrong. A previous trip to the ER got the kid a COVID test that came back negative, and instructions to take some Advil and see a doctor if he got worse. He briefly started to get better, then turned for the worse, which is when our doctor suited up and saw him in a parking lot because she was told by the powers that be in our Medical Group that she couldn’t see COVID patients at the office. A battery of tests, a positive COVID test, and increasing BP made it clear (to her at least) that his needs were beyond what she could do. She sent him to a major medical center in Westchester. They saw him....and we’re going to send him home. Our doc plead with them to look at the data she gathered and sent, there was something profoundly wrong, she knew it.

While this struggle between medical professions played out the kid crashed. Brain scans showed that he had 3 blood clots in his brain. He almost died, and if not for the intervention of our doctor he would have died at home, where the ER and major medical center wanted to send him.

What’s the point of recounting such a story? I mean, people, even otherwise healthy 17 year olds, die all the time, I suppose. However, although anecdotal, a story like this highlights the dangers of this virus, which is not just “the flu”, as some are prone to argue. This isn’t just a respiratory virus. This virus is systemic and attacks multiple body systems. Not in every, most, or even many patients....but enough that there should be some level of fear as we get back at life. That fear can’t stop us from living, but a healthy fear can help us all make better choices that can help more people avoid the virus and the certain bad outcomes many (even if a “low” percentage) will face.

Yes, it’s most likely that my sons, if they do get COVID, will survive. It’s also a fact that someone’s son or daughter will get it after going back to school and die.

Life must move forward, but minimizing the risk and danger is a mistake. Moving on is a roll of the dice....and the wager on the table is your life.

Yes, we need to get back to school and life, but we can’t be cavalier and glib in doing so. 

Percentages or not, this is still serious and not like anything we’ve seen in a hundred years.

UNC seems to have made it a week before they now are shutting down.


----------



## Harvey

Thanks for that story. Wow.

I think another thing we don't know are long term effects. If you go through it, and have bad symptoms or no symptoms, will there be some other manifestations later in life.

Humans are funny. 3000 died in 9/11. We saw it on TV and it had a huge impact. Heart disease and cancer are still the biggest.

This is from 2017, but if it was the current year covid would probably be 3rd on this list:


----------



## MarzNC

JTG said:


> What’s the point of recounting such a story? I mean, people, even otherwise healthy 17 year olds, die all the time, I suppose. However, although anecdotal, a story like this highlights the dangers of this virus, which is not just “the flu”, as some are prone to argue. This isn’t just a respiratory virus. This virus is systemic and attacks multiple body systems. Not in every, most, or even many patients....but enough that there should be some level of fear as we get back at life. That fear can’t stop us from living, but a healthy fear can help us all make better choices that can help more people avoid the virus and the certain bad outcomes many (even if a “low” percentage) will face.
> 
> Yes, it’s most likely that my sons, if they do get COVID, will survive. It’s also a fact that someone’s son or daughter will get it after going back to school and die.
> 
> Life must move forward, but minimizing the risk and danger is a mistake. Moving on is a roll of the dice....and the wager on the table is your life.
> 
> Yes, we need to get back to school and life, but we can’t be cavalier and glib in doing so.
> 
> Percentages or not, this is still serious and not like anything we’ve seen in a hundred years.


Completely agree.

Not only has there not been a pandemic of this scale for a hundred years, no coronavirus has acted in the way SARS-CoV-2 does in terms of being spread quickly by people with no symptoms, including some who never have symptoms. Or such mild symptoms that they have no clue they had COVID-19 and were probably shedding virus for a few days.

My daughter is at one of the smaller campuses of the UNC system. She is at UNC Asheville, with about 4000 students. Happily there are no headlines for UNCA due to COVID-19. Most classes are online but there are a few meeting in person at lower capacity in re-arranged classrooms.

Duke Univ. is 20 min from UNC-Chapel Hill. It's small and private. Only freshmen and sophomores are allowed to move into a dorm. All students and staff are being tested. Out of the first 3000 tested the first few days, only 4 tested positive. After almost 6000 tests, there were 11 positive tests.

In short, each college is going to be dealing with a unique situation. Hopefully some will succeed. I'll be watching all the universities in the Triangle closely. I live within 30 minutes of UNC-Chapel Hill, Duke, and NC State.


----------



## JTG

MarzNC said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> Not only has there not been a pandemic of this scale for a hundred years, no coronavirus has acted in the way SARS-CoV-2 does in terms of being spread quickly by people with no symptoms, including some who never have symptoms. Or such mild symptoms that they have no clue they had COVID-19 and were probably shedding virus for a few days.
> 
> My daughter is at one of the smaller campuses of the UNC system. She is at UNC Asheville, with about 4000 students. Happily there are no headlines for UNCA due to COVID-19. Most classes are online but there are a few meeting in person at lower capacity in re-arranged classrooms.
> 
> Duke Univ. is 20 min from UNC-Chapel Hill. It's small and private. Only freshmen and sophomores are allowed to move into a dorm. All students and staff are being tested. Out of the first 3000 tested the first few days, only 4 tested positive. After almost 6000 tests, there were 11 positive tests.
> 
> In short, each college is going to be dealing with a unique situation. Hopefully some will succeed. I'll be watching all the universities in the Triangle closely. I live within 30 minutes of UNC-Chapel Hill, Duke, and NC State.



I do want to say, because someone will certainly toss in the comment to stir the pot, but it isn’t about fear mongering. I’m not saying people should shutter themselves in for fear of this virus. We aren’t. However, there is a gamble, and often times when you wager you lose. It’s like going to a casino. Play the right game, and play it smart (that would be Blackjack) and you can improve your odds of success. I’d rather not treat this like a slot machine, just pull the lever and accept the shittiest of odds.

It’ll certainly be interesting to see where schools are by October. Heck, a week ago most of the schools around us had a hybrid model in place, now they are mostly shelving that to do remote learning until October. I have low confidence my son will finish the fall semester in Plattsburgh, but I hope he does.


----------



## Tjf1967

JTG said:


> I do want to say, because someone will certainly toss in the comment to stir the pot, but it isn’t about fear mongering. I’m not saying people should shutter themselves in for fear of this virus. We aren’t. However, there is a gamble, and often times when you wager you lose. It’s like going to a casino. Play the right game, and play it smart (that would be Blackjack) and you can improve your odds of success. I’d rather not treat this like a slot machine, just pull the lever and accept the shittiest of odds.
> 
> It’ll certainly be interesting to see where schools are by October. Heck, a week ago most of the schools around us had a hybrid model in place, now they are mostly shelving that to do remote learning until October. I have low confidence my son will finish the fall semester in Plattsburgh, but I hope he does.



Shutting the school down and bringing/sending the kids home seems like trojan horse.


----------



## jasonwx

JTG said:


> I do want to say, because someone will certainly toss in the comment to stir the pot, but it isn’t about fear mongering. I’m not saying people should shutter themselves in for fear of this virus. We aren’t. However, there is a gamble, and often times when you wager you lose. It’s like going to a casino. Play the right game, and play it smart (that would be Blackjack) and you can improve your odds of success. I’d rather not treat this like a slot machine, just pull the lever and accept the shittiest of odds.
> 
> It’ll certainly be interesting to see where schools are by October. Heck, a week ago most of the schools around us had a hybrid model in place, now they are mostly shelving that to do remote learning until October. I have low confidence my son will finish the fall semester in Plattsburgh, but I hope he does.


My buddy's kid goes back to Platt this week too and I go back to work at Covid High next week..At least the numbers are low in NY. Maybe that will help..


----------



## MarzNC

JTG said:


> UNC seems to have made it a week before they now are shutting down.


To be clear, it's only the UNC-Chapel Hill campus that is closing dorms and going completely online as of August 19. I was a Tar Heel for undergrad and grad school. I know the campus and the type of kids who go as freshmen pretty well. Lived in Chapel Hill 1972-92. Not particularly surprised that they didn't follow the guidelines and rules in terms of what is takes to keep from spreading COVID-19.

I won't be surprised if NC State and ECU, and other UNC campuses with over 20,000 students decide to close dorms as well. What I realized just now is that the extended move-in process increased the likelihood of a lot of community spread. Students moved in over 5-6 days by appointment. That means some students had days with nothing to do but socialize before classes started. For a lot of in-state freshmen, it's the first time they've even been on their own. Have been plenty of poor choices made in the past by undergraduates in the first month of school, long before COVID-19.

UNC Asheville handled dorm move-in very differently. Students moved in their stuff over two long weekends in July. Then they went home. Actual move-in to stay overnight happened over the weekend just before classes started on Monday, August 10. By then, all the RAs, freshmen doing orientation, and other students living off-campus who had job training for on-campus jobs were fully engaged in wearing face masks. Every student was given two cloth face masks and disposable ones are handy if someone forgets to bring theirs to campus.

My brother went to Univ. of Maryland for grad school and lives in DC. He said UMD campuses are requiring a negative COVID-19 test within 14 days of arrival on campus.

So many "experiments" happening all over the world for universities. <sigh>


----------



## Campgottagopee

SUNY Cortland students came back

Tops is out of paper towels again


----------



## wonderpony

Cornell is still on track for bringing students back. Normally, I work move-in day. It's pretty fun. This year, I think I will stay home. Ithaca College, on the other hill here in Ithaca, announced today that it will have online classes only. 

There has been discussion about bringing staff members back to our office on a rotating basis. One person would be onsite for a week. I have mixed feelings. I miss the energy the students bring, for sure. OTOH, my dad is 80 and lives alone. I am pretty much the only person he sees. If I have to quarantine for two weeks after being in the office, I would only be able to see him once every three weeks, unless we go back to doing stuff outside again. Not sure how I feel about that. 

WP


----------



## MC2

Notre Dame undergraduate classes going virtual for next 2 weeks due to coronavirus spike


The University of Notre Dame says it is prepared to send students home if coronavirus numbers do not improve. A record 80 new cases were reported Tuesday and undergraduate classes are now being moved online for at least the next two weeks. We looked into what measures the university is taking to...




wsbt.com


----------



## MarzNC

Interesting. Planning to keep the Notre Dame students on campus for a couple weeks while they do classes online. Probably more likely to teach them something about what it takes to keep from getting infected than if they all went home.


----------



## Brownski

Adios World Cup- maybe next year


----------



## Campgottagopee

Well, there goes my side gig as an exotic dancer down the tubes 









Cuomo’s coronavirus rules: No dancing, no cornhole, no karaoke, no kidding


New York State Liquor Authority wants to stop people from congregating in bars




www.syracuse.com


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> Well, there goes my side gig as an exotic dancer down the tubes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cuomo’s coronavirus rules: No dancing, no cornhole, no karaoke, no kidding
> 
> 
> New York State Liquor Authority wants to stop people from congregating in bars
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.syracuse.com



can you return the gold lame g-string?


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> can you return the gold lame g-string?



If I hadn't worn it for tryouts I'm sure I could've. I think it's too late now. Damn the bad luck


----------



## Campgottagopee

Common SU let's not screw this up.








Syracuse University puts 23 students on interim suspension following quad gathering


The students were punished following a gathering of hundreds on the Syracuse University on Wednesday night.




www.syracuse.com


----------



## Brownski

Just saw on the news that the plastic bag ban is back in effect. Don’t forget your bags.


----------



## gorgonzola

Campgottagopee said:


> Common SU let's not screw this up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Syracuse University puts 23 students on interim suspension following quad gathering
> 
> 
> The students were punished following a gathering of hundreds on the Syracuse University on Wednesday night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.syracuse.com


Yea a friend of ours dropped their kid off and saw this on the news when they got back...


----------



## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> Just saw on the news that the plastic bag ban is back in effect. Don’t forget your bags.


thanks
just about to head to shoprite


----------



## Warp daddy




----------



## Harvey

Colorado ski areas have to lower peoples’ expectations for next season as they navigate the coronavirus


From special food tents to new bathroom soap, ski areas are still trying to figure out how to have a ski season in the coronavirus age.




theknow.denverpost.com


----------



## MarzNC

Plane fares to Denver during a 3-day sale this week on Southwest are pretty low. Have a few friends who are very tempted to head to Colorado in December. They have vacation days that have to be used up before the end of the year or else they lose them.

Now that VR has announced their reservation system, will be interesting to see how quickly independent resorts make announcements.


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> Plane fares to Denver during a 3-day sale this week on Southwest are pretty low. Have a few friends who are very tempted to head to Colorado in December. They have vacation days that have to be used up before the end of the year or else they lose them.
> 
> Now that VR has announced their reservation system, will be interesting to see how quickly independent resorts make announcements.



I'll be avoiding the flying petri dishes ...


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> I'll be avoiding the flying petri dishes ...



Same. I want to go to Florida SO bad in Nov to watch the Masters but I just don't dare do it. Yet. Could things change in just a few short months? I doubt it but I still remain hopeful.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

My company announce nobody goes to an office until July 2021.

Meanwhile I've been busting my ass every day.. AND we just replaced Exxon on the Dow so the stock payoff is HUGE..


----------



## Campgottagopee

These little pricks (I was one so I can say that) better not ruin it for the rest of us here in CNY. It will not be good.

https://cortlandstandard.net/2020/08/27/suny-cortland-warns-students-over-gatherings/?fbclid=IwAR1Uy1FUv8NSQzR-HbZAsEJIi4sib3nB964PkavVHpQA525VvCelv1fBe0M


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> I'll be avoiding the flying petri dishes ...


Whether or not to travel during a pandemic is a very personal decision. I have a friend who would board a plane tomorrow but won't go to the dentist or get his hair cut. I know people who aren't driving farther than 10 miles from their house.

I happen to be the type to feel comfortable traveling in a deliberate fashion. I'm picky about which gas stations I stop in along the way these days. Usually find a Sheetz, which isn't too hard driving in NC or from NC to Lake Placid. I've stayed in motels for a few nights this summer. All were Best Western with exterior doors.

All the reading I've done since mid-February has helped my family figure out how to stay healthy while still doing stuff away from home with friends we trust.

Just saw that a few summer camps in Maine figured out how to run programs and avoid major outbreaks. There were four camps and about 1000 people total. 









						Study shows how 4 Maine summer camps beat the coronavirus
					

The camps employed “a multilayered prevention and mitigation strategy” that greatly hindered the spread of the disease.




					bangordailynews.com
				












						Preventing and Mitigating SARS-CoV-2 Transmission — Four Overnight ...
					

This report describes the COVID-19 prevention and mitigation strategy implemented by four Maine overnight camps during the 2020 summer camp season.




					www.cdc.gov
				




The knowledge is available, but it takes effort to keep people aware and following the rules. Obviously something that hasn't happened at a lot of big universities in the last few weeks. But I think there are smaller colleges that will managed to follow their plans for the entire fall semester.


----------



## Brownski

Gyms are open in my county. It seems like it’d be super scary but even before covid these guys keep the place so clean it’s amazing. In February they really stepped it up to another level and now they’ve moved everything around to create more separation. strength training with a mask on is no problem. Cardio with a mask is tougher.


----------



## marcski

MarzNC said:


> The knowledge is available, but it takes effort to keep people aware and following the rules. Obviously something that hasn't happened at a lot of big universities in the last few weeks. But I think there are smaller colleges that will managed to follow their plans for the entire fall semester.



Knowledge and science are the easy part. Regardless of what you do, changing people's beliefs and behaviors...is something totally different.


----------



## MarzNC

marcski said:


> Knowledge and science are the easy part. Regardless of what you do, changing people's beliefs and behaviors...is something totally different.


Yep.

I found out why there is an outbreak in Maine, which has been trying to be very careful. There was a wedding held indoors in early August with little adherence to existing rules about table spacing or total number of people at an event. They didn't work extra hard to get a full list of names for the purposes of good contact tracing if it became necessary. By all accounts, guests didn't think keeping face coverings on was important. The Inn has since had their license suspended because not enough changed even after cases from the wedding were detected. Unfortunately, at least one death could be traced to the wedding. The current number connected to the wedding is over 100 and could go higher.


----------



## Peter Minde

Went to my first [outdoor] restaurant on Thursday. Had it not been work related - I've left UPS and am working in a retail wine store - wouldn't have gone. Tables were too close together.


----------



## Warp daddy

Ugh more Covid problems at Suny ( Plattsburgh , Oneonta ) IMHO changing behavior of the herd is an unrealistic expectation . There will always be kids who think they are bulletproof and act accordingly . Almost an impossibility to manage this situation ' yeah you can enact sanctions of several varieties but that is TOO late ..

Very difficult situation , so far up here Suny Potsdam and Suny Canton , Clarkson and SLU are not affected , BUT it is only a matter of time until the fit hits the shan .


----------



## MarzNC

Warp daddy said:


> Very difficult situation , so far up here Suny Potsdam and Suny Canton , Clarkson and SLU are not affected , BUT it is only a matter of time until the fit hits the shan .


Did any of these colleges require a PCR test either within a couple weeks of arrival on campus or on the first day?

My friend in Boston has a daughter in college in MA and another in ME. Both are small private schools with under 2000 students. One requires a PCR test twice a week and then other is testing students who live off campus every three days.


----------



## MarzNC

It's been very difficult to know what distance, indoors or outdoors, is relatively low risk when somewhere there are strangers. Even when reading a lot of articles in the past few months. Six feet is obviously better than 2-3 feet, but is it enough? Some research indicates aerosols can travel up to 20 feet when someone is coughing or sneezes. It's worth remembering that time of exposure is also a significant factor. Close contact is considered within 3 feet for more than 15 minutes.

Here's a recent research report done in the UK that suggests a framework to help people decide on the level of risk associated with being with strangers that considers location (indoor/outdoor), ventilation, duration, and whether or not face masks are in use. The summary table doesn't try to define Low or High for Occupancy or Short versus Long for Time. But still can be useful for deciding what situations and locations worth avoiding. Fair to say that the "shouting, singing" category is one way to address a bar . . . or a choir practice.

As always, the decision of what's "high risk" and worth avoiding is a personal decision that depends on many factors.

August 25, The BMJ (UK medical journal)








Two metres or one: what is the evidence for physical distancing in covid-19?


Rigid safe distancing rules are an oversimplification based on outdated science and experiences of past viruses, argue Nicholas R Jones and colleagues Physical distancing is an important part of measures to control covid-19, but exactly how far away and for how long contact is safe in...




www.bmj.com


----------



## Warp daddy

Not certain of their exact protocols Marz .

Each has pre arrival protocols in place and i read something about PCR testing upon arrival . But not specifically sure after that other than periodic testing will continue 

Each limited students living on campus . Clarkson has 400 fewer dorm residents and Potsdam 500 fewer , not sure about Canton and Slu


----------



## Brownski

Junior was not tested. People that exhibit symptoms are being tested on his campus


----------



## Warp daddy

Up date : SUNY CANTON testing EVERY two weeks OR if symptoms exist. They tested everyone had ONE positive .


----------



## Tjf1967

MarzNC said:


> Did any of these colleges require a PCR test either within a couple weeks of arrival on campus or on the first day?
> 
> My friend in Boston has a daughter in college in MA and another in ME. Both are small private schools with under 2000 students. One requires a PCR test twice a week and then other is testing students who live off campus every three days.


That much testing is just silly expensive. Who pays for it?


----------



## MarzNC

Tjf1967 said:


> That much testing is just silly expensive. Who pays for it?


I don't know details for testing at these colleges other than timing.

The cost of PCR tests depends somewhat on the style of testing. Yale developed a saliva test that is supposed to be $2-3 per test. Rutgers had a saliva test completed several months ago. But nasal swab tests are somewhat more reliable. The issue of false negative is a consideration given how contagious COVID-19 is when a person has no symptoms because they are pre-symptomatic. That's one reason to do multiple tests, at least in the first few weeks. The viral load in Day 1-3 sometimes isn't high enough to register, but by Day 4-6, should be easy to detect.

What makes the most sense to me as a statistician is to do appropriate sampling. That's what Duke is doing for off-campus students as well as faculty/staff. That approach has been done for long-term care facilities. Just came across the idea for public school teachers in Wyoming. The goal is to avoid an undetected outbreak. Even if have a cooperative group of people who all go for testing when they have symptoms, that leaves several days of potential spread before someone feels sick.


----------



## MarzNC

College towns all over the country are trying to figure out how to deal with outbreaks that started because students arrived . . . and the parties started. I'd already noticed that the Iowa numbers had gone up and figured it was because of the two universities.

From NY Times on 31Aug:

At the University of Alabama, more than 1,300 students and staff members have tested positive, prompting the mayor of Tuscaloosa, Ala., to close all bars in the city for two weeks in the hope of slowing the explosive outbreak.​

In the first week of classes, Iowa State University in Ames found 104 cases and the University of Iowa in Iowa City had 607 students test positive. The outbreaks prompted Gov. Kim Reynolds to close bars in six counties through most of September. Other college towns with the greatest rise in cases relative to population include Oxford, Miss. (University of Mississippi); Lawrence, Kan. (University of Kansas); Auburn, Ala. (Auburn University); Pullman, Wash. (Washington State University); Statesboro, Ga. (Georgia Southern University); and Grand Forks, N.D. (University of North Dakota)​

NY Times tried to get numbers for colleges last week. Created a map based on what they got by August 25.









Tracking the Coronavirus at U.S. Colleges and Universities (Published 2021)


College campuses, like the rest of the country, are enduring a coronavirus surge.



www.nytimes.com


----------



## MarzNC

Funny how paying attention to ski towns and resorts can lead to insights for COVID-19 in general. An article about a party in a Killington hotel that has stared an outbreak started with a comment about Vermont colleges:

_"The good news, as students have been returning to Vermont’s 13 colleges and being tested for Covid-19, Vermont has seen very few cases. Of the 8,679 tests Vermont colleges have done so far, only 19 have been positive."_​


----------



## Campgottagopee

This letter to the editor holds true on many levels imo









LETTER TO THE EDITOR: RE: ‘Cornell Identifies First COVID-19 Cluster on Campus’


Reopening is not without bumps in the road. And plans have changed and may continue to change.




cornellsun.com


----------



## tirolski

SUNY Oneota has casedemic ongoing while it's private neighboring Hartwick has a single positive test.
Prez of Hartwick said. “And we are now asking all students to refrain from interacting with SUNY students.”

Good luck with that.








3 Sports Teams Held Parties That Started Outbreak, Morris Says


3 Sports Teams Held Parties That Started Outbreak, Morris Says SUNY Leader Expects 'Ramp Up' In Cases By LIBBY CUDMORE • Special to www.AllOTSEGO.com ONEONTA – With 2,000 COVID-19 tests administered Sunday and today, SUNY Oneonta President Barbara Jean Morris warned the Oneonta Control Room



www.allotsego.com


----------



## MarzNC

MarzNC said:


> The cost of PCR tests depends somewhat on the style of testing.


There is a company in MA that is doing a lot of the testing for MA institutions like small colleges or long-term care facilities. Only reason I'm noting it here is that they mention cost on their website. Sounds like a test can be under $30 for a college or university with enough volume.





__





COVID-19 Testing


Broad Institute has created a novel automation system for COVID-19 test processing that is scalable, modular, and high-throughput. We have processed nearly 20 million tests so far, in service of the public health needs of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and surrounding areas.




www.broadinstitute.org


----------



## Warp daddy

Today Clarkson (14) and St Lawrence(11) sent 25 kids home for "egregious. Violations " of their Covid restrictions hmmm 19 New Cases in the county today


----------



## Brownski

Heard a story on the radio today about a study in Iceland that showed high levels of antibodies for four months following infection.


----------



## MarzNC

Warp daddy said:


> Today Clarkson (14) and St Lawrence(11) sent 25 kids home for "egregious. Violations " of their Covid restrictions hmmm 19 New Cases in the county today


Wonder if the students sent home tested positive or negative?

In some places, it's getting very confusing to know what numbers from students really mean. The colleges are reporting based on on-campus testing and self-reporting of tests done off campus. The on-campus tests are counted in the county/zip code of the college. The off-campus or tests done at home are added to other county/zip code statistics.


----------



## MarzNC

Here's how my fitness center in central NC intends to re-open next week. If you watch the video, would you go to use equipment? Note that Zoom and outdoor fitness classes have been held all summer.

Gyms can re-open in NC at the end of this week in what's being called Phase 2.5. Also playgrounds. Bars still closed. The original date for changing things was Sept. 11. So will be more announcements next week.

UNC Wellness is associate with UNC Health, a large medical company affiliated with the Univ. of NC and UNC Hospital in Chapel Hill. There are two centers. The one in Chapel Hill serves a large retired population, many who moved from the northeast. The one a mile from my house serves new neighborhoods that includes lots of families with school age kids, along with active seniors living in retirement developments. Both centers do a lot of rehab and PT.


----------



## JTG

Plattsburgh seems to be on top of things. 2 positives since Aug 21, 0 new in the past 5 days. My son had his test under the pooled surveillance testing program this morning.





__





8-25-20 Plattsburgh Pooled Surveillance Testing - SUNY


Chancellor Malatras and SUNY Plattsburgh President Enyedi Announce Launch of Pooled Surveillance Testing for COVID-19 on Plattsburgh Campus




www.suny.edu


----------



## The UNHOLY

Isn't the mortality rate like 2-3% and the majority of those deaths are people classified as "high risk" ?


----------



## Warp daddy

only one POSITIVE at the colleges "at this point" of the now 20 new cases in the county .the county had been at zeo after earlier spiking in the the late winter and early spring ( 279), the majority of cases were in the City and larger villages and their surrounding burbs. Low density and high compliance here is a key factor 

The County Geographically the 5th largest county east of the Mississippi has roughly 107,000 (within its 32 townships are 1 city and 13 villages) to give you perspective


----------



## MarzNC

The UNHOLY said:


> Isn't the mortality rate like 2-3% and the majority of those deaths are people classified as "high risk" ?


Perhaps. Clearly when a medical system isn't overwhelmed, the mortality rate is nothing like what happened in NYC/NJ in Feb-Mar 2020 or Italy a month or two earlier. Things are still changing too much to have solid epidemiological data.

However, it's also become clear in recent months that two high risk factors are obesity and diabetes. For the U.S. and the U.K., there are a lot of people who fit into one or both of those subpopulations. These are the people under age 60 who can die within a few weeks of being infected. That's true in enough cases even for people who seek medical care within a few days of realizing they may have been exposed or are just starting to feel symptoms. I've read far too many sad stories. One that sticks with me was a mayor of a small town in NC. There was a family in FL who lost both adult children within a week who were in their 20s and obese.

COVID-19 was thought to be a respiratory illness because the lungs were the initial site of for people who were hospitalized. But it became clear that it's far more likely that the issues are vascular. Very low blood oxygen levels has become a key indicator that something is very wrong, especially when the patient isn't short of breath. I know of people who have recovered but are dealing with ongoing cardiac weakness, meaning people who were active advanced skiers with no underlying medical issues. The national headlines count cases and deaths, but there are many stories of survivors under age 50 who are far from back to good health after more than a couple months. Reminds me of Lyme disease where many doctors didn't believe long-term impact existed for quite a while. I'm not a medical professional, just someone who reads a lot.

New research about COVID-19 is being published all the time. Hopefully will lead to better treatment for those who end up in the hospital or have lingering medical issues.

Sept. 1, Elemental
A Supercomputer Analyzed Covid-19 — and an Interesting New Theory Has Emerged
_A closer look at the Bradykinin hypothesis_








A Supercomputer Analyzed Covid-19 — and an Interesting New Theory Has Emerged


A closer look at the Bradykinin hypothesis




elemental.medium.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

The UNHOLY said:


> Isn't the mortality rate like 2-3% and the majority of those deaths are people classified as "high risk" ?



Our numbers continue to go down.

Even with the return of SUNY no new hospitalizations. Everyone, including myself, was very concerned about that.

I'm starting to feel that maybe it's time to take the muzzle off and let people decide what they want to, or don't want to do.


----------



## The UNHOLY

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm starting to feel that maybe it's time to take the muzzle off and let people decide what they want to, or don't want to do.


----------



## Brownski

I agree Camp.


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm starting to feel that maybe it's time to take the muzzle off and let people decide what they want to, or don't want to do.


I don't really disagree with the idea. But I also think continued education from a public health standpoint about how COVID-19 is transmitted should be considered a high priority. There are deaths that can be avoided if even 50% of people wear face masks and keep their distance, while at the same time going about their daily lives away from home. Medical research for COVID-19 is moving at a very fast pace. Still need more time. I'm not thinking about vaccine development, but more about diagnosis and treatment options for those who have more than mild symptoms.

There is a death in Maine that is directly traceable to an indoor wedding in early August with about 60 people, more than the limit currently allowed. So clearly just having rules isn't enough. The question is how to get more people to understand what's risky behavior and what isn't.


----------



## MarzNC

Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign thought they had a plan that would work. It's based on saliva testing at the start, followed by twice weekly re-testing. What they didn't anticipate is how many students who tested positive would not self-quarantine. <sigh> (My husband and his two brothers went to UIUC long ago.)

August 29, Fortune








One university may have the best COVID testing operation in the U.S.—and tests students twice per week


An Illinois school has radically revolutionized large-scale COVID testing.




fortune.com





Sept. 2, Chicago Sun Times








‘Irresponsible and dangerous’ behavior at UIUC could lead to end of in-person semester after COVID-19 spike, shool warns


More than 700 people on campus have tested positive for the virus since school started Aug. 24.




chicago.suntimes.com




_" . . .
School administration says parties and other large gatherings over the weekend are to blame for the high number of positive tests, as well as students disregarding guidance to self-isolate after testing positive or being exposed to someone who tests positive. Two students have been suspended, and 100 more are being investigated and could face school discipline. 

The school emphasized Wednesday that students face “immediate suspension” if they don’t quarantine or isolate per university direction. People hosting parties will also be suspended immediately, too. 

“The irresponsible and dangerous actions of a small number of our students has created a very real possibility of ending an in-person semester for all of us here,” said UIUC Chancellor Robert Jones. “There are poor choices that led to a very concerning and rapid increase in the number of new undergraduate COVID-19 positive cases.”
. . ."_


----------



## The UNHOLY

Pandemic every 100 years, it's natures way of culling the herd.?


----------



## JTG

The UNHOLY said:


> Isn't the mortality rate like 2-3% and the majority of those deaths are people classified as "high risk" ?


Based on confirmed cases and reported deaths it’s 3% in the US (186,000 deaths / 6,130,000 Confirmed cases), 3.75% Worldwide (300,000/8,000,000).

The question is whether those percentages (more specifically the reported deaths and confirmed cases) have any validity.

Could the COVID-19 reported deaths number be inflated because the medical community, from the beginning, has been prone to report deaths as COVID-19 related when they might possibly have been caused by something else? Is the case number understated, given the likelihood that MANY people have been infected but never tested, and therefore never included in the case totals?

Just to give you a sense of how the numbers change....if you halve the death total (assuming the cause of death for many wasn’t COVID-19 but rather the underlying heath issues they already had) and double the case total (assuming as many people have been infected and not tested as people who have).......and the death rate drops in the US from 3% to .7%.

Big difference, though deadlier than Influenza. What are the real numbers/percentages? Who knows?

If you assume that the entire US population, or even half of it, will eventually be infected with COVID-19....at a 3% death rate that’s 5m to 10m US deaths. Do you take the muzzle off and allow that to happen? On the other hand, if the true death rate is somewhere near .5% that’s 800k to 1.6m US deaths. Since 2010 it is estimated as many as 350k people have died from Influenzas. At a .5% death rate taking the muzzle would make sense.

Too much is still unknown. The bradykinin hypothesis is very interesting.

Personally, I think the 3% death rate is grossly overestimated, but what do I know.....


----------



## MarzNC

JTG said:


> Personally, I think the 3% death rate is grossly overestimated, but what do I know.....


How about 3% plus/minus 5%? Remember, I'm a statistician so no number is exact but only a good estimate with some level of variance. 

The reports I find interesting aren't about the number of COVID-19 deaths, but the number of "excess deaths." Have seen some by country that are very clear that the pandemic made a huge difference in the first half of 2020. Here's what has happened in the U.S. by state. First came out in early May and has been updated as death certificates are recorded.

May 5 and being updated, NY Times








True Pandemic Toll in the U.S. Reaches 377,000 (Published 2021)


Since coronavirus struck, more people have died than usual in every state of the country, with 23 states seeing deaths above normal peaking in the last two months, according to a New York Times analysis.



www.nytimes.com


----------



## JTG

Interesting statistics regarding the “excess deaths”. Total deaths as compared to average are higher, and by more than reported CV-19 deaths. If we assume that CV-19 is the only variable causing “excess deaths” then it’s a reasonable statistical argument that CV-19 deaths are underreported.

Now if we can find something statistically valid about the total number of cases perhaps we can get a better estimate of actual death rate....+/-3% maybe?

I found a couple different studies/estimates (which are now several months ago old) that indicate actual cases are likely 2 to 3 times the confirmed reported cases.


----------



## Brownski

There’s still a lot that’s unknowable in the present tense. Excess deaths statistics will capture people killed by the shutdowns and other factors related to our response as well as Covid deaths. My gut still says that the cure has been worse then the disease. I hope I live long enough to see an objective, thorough analysis of what worked and what didn’t.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> My gut still says that the cure has been worse then the disease. I hope I live long enough to see an objective, thorough analysis of what worked and what didn’t.



Same thoughts here.


----------



## gorgonzola

I have an adult daughter with a compromised immune system so stats don't mean shit, I hope the same for her...


----------



## DMC_Hunter

MarzNC said:


> There is a death in Maine that is directly traceable to an indoor wedding in early August with about 60 people, more than the limit currently allowed. So clearly just having rules isn't enough. The question is how to get more people to understand what's risky behavior and what isn't.




That wedding is now responsible for 143 cases and one death. The pastor from the wedding brought it back to his church and infected people. AND he doesn't give a fukc because he loves liberty. Good thing there is no god...

I still remember the dark times in NYC last spring. Friends who were working in hospitals were not doing well with the influx of cases. It was hard...


----------



## marcski

Here's the deal to put these numbers in come comparison: 

US Covid deaths - 185k
US WWI deaths - 116k
US WWII deaths - 405k
US Korean War Deaths - 36k
US Vietnam deaths - 58k
US Afghanistan war deaths - 2200
US Iraq War deaths - 4500

Plus don't forget, these covid deaths are over a 6 month period. These wars were all over a period of about 4 or more years.


----------



## MarzNC

gorgonzola said:


> I have an adult daughter with a compromised immune system so stats don't mean shit, I hope the same for her...


Yep, it's worrying about family members at higher risk for whatever reason that's tough.

My husband has more than one underlying medical condition that puts him at high risk. Luckily he's smart enough to stay safe, but also enough of an optimist and not a worrier so that he doesn't feel the need to stay housebound. He stayed home in March and April while we kept reading and learning about COVID-19 from multiple sources. I and my daughter did the shopping and brought back reports of what made us feel comfortable enough and the places to avoid. Meaning before any sort of face mask requirements in NC or by major retailers.

Luckily our neighborhood is mostly pretty sensible people and has more than enough supermarkets. He won't starve when I go on ski trips without him this winter.


----------



## Campgottagopee

marcski said:


> Here's the deal to put these numbers in come comparison:
> 
> US Covid deaths - 185k
> US WWI deaths - 116k
> US WWII deaths - 405k
> US Korean War Deaths - 36k
> US Vietnam deaths - 58k
> US Afghanistan war deaths - 2200
> US Iraq War deaths - 4500
> 
> Plus don't forget, these covid deaths are over a 6 month period. These wars were all over a period of about 4 or more years.



Damn

Here we go









SUNY Oneonta closing campus for rest of semester amid coronavirus outbreak


After 100 more positive cases of coronavirus were confirmed at SUNY Oneonta Thursday, SUNY Chancellor Jim Malatras announced the school would be closing campus and switching to fully remote learning for the rest of the fall semester.




www.wktv.com


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> Here we go


Hmm, 400 positive cases for a campus with 6000 undergrads. That's pretty much in line with the bigger universities with 1000+ cases but larger enrollments.


----------



## MarzNC

JTG said:


> Now if we can find something statistically valid about the total number of cases perhaps we can get a better estimate of actual death rate....+/-3% maybe?
> 
> I found a couple different studies/estimates (which are now several months ago old) that indicate actual cases are likely 2 to 3 times the confirmed reported cases.


For the number of cases, may have to be +/- 10%. 

I've read from 2-3 times to as much as 10 times higher in terms of cases that are/were not detected by PCR testing. Of course, lots of variability by geography around the world. That's one reason I'm interested in situations where sampling is done, whether on a campus or a town or whatever subpopulation where mass testing is totally impractical.


----------



## wonderpony

Cornell has 47 active cases and 100 kids in quarantine, resulting from a couple of parties. The students came back 11 days ago.


----------



## Harvey

marcski said:


> Here's the deal to put these numbers in come comparison:
> 
> US Covid deaths - 185k
> US WWI deaths - 116k
> US WWII deaths - 405k
> US Korean War Deaths - 36k
> US Vietnam deaths - 58k
> US Afghanistan war deaths - 2200
> US Iraq War deaths - 4500
> 
> Plus don't forget, these covid deaths are over a 6 month period. These wars were all over a period of about 4 or more years.



I feel that the focus on death, may leave something out. In a war, they talk about the casualties and the wounded. The idea that all is well if you didn't die certainly hasn't been proven. At this time we really don't know too much beyond the fact that some who survived are not well.





__





Science | AAAS







www.sciencemag.org


----------



## Harvey

I just got back from a doc visit. Spoke to a woman who was doing covid testing. She told me she personally had administered 600 tests, given to asymptomatic people, and only one had come back positive. Call me surprised that the northeast has been able to keep numbers (relatively) low while other parts of the country are struggling with this.

I was looking at the numbers this morning and the worst places (FL, AZ) do seem to be improving a little.


----------



## The UNHOLY

Not to get political - while I am not a Cuomo fan - i think his fast, decisive action when this hit saved upstate NY. I think he did the best action he could and it helped. I agree you cannot overwhelm the hospital system or you are in big trouble. But I still feel at this point, we could be more open until the hospital rate potentially goes back up.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Call me surprised that the northeast has been able to keep numbers (relatively) low while other parts of the country are struggling with this.
> 
> I was looking at the numbers this morning and the worst places (FL, AZ) do seem to be improving a little.


I'm less surprised. But then I was watching what happened in Europe in Feb-Apr very closely. Each country handled the situation differently for assorted reasons. The same happened in the U.S. in Mar-May, more or less by region in addition to individual states. Every time I got curious why a given state or county looked bad, it didn't take long to figure out what type of outbreaks were happening or why the Positive Percent was staying relatively low.

Warning: Going into lecture mode. Xenforo makes it much easier. 

Back in late Feb, an international company held a big meeting in Boston. Biogen failed to understand what was happening in Italy and elsewhere in Europe. As a result that meeting became a “super spreader” event in multiple states, including North Carolina where Biogen has a large office. Given that was my professional industry and where I live, I paid attention when I saw the first headline with "Biogen" and "Boston" in it. I knew by the time my daughter flew to Boston in early March that COVID-19 was spreading. After she came home on March 12, my family stayed very close to home for about six weeks.

April 12, NY Times
How a Premier U.S. Drug Company Became a Virus ‘Super Spreader’
_Biogen employees unwittingly spread the coronavirus from Massachusetts to Indiana, Tennessee and North Carolina._








						How a Premier U.S. Drug Company Became a Virus ‘Super Spreader’ (Published 2020)
					

Biogen employees unwittingly spread the coronavirus from Massachusetts to Indiana, Tennessee and North Carolina.




					www.nytimes.com
				




It was pretty easy to anticipate when a state/region was starting to get into trouble. The surprise for me has been CA and WA. But in those states, it's subregions that caused numbers to spike during the summer.

The general difference in July-August all over the U.S. and Europe is that a much larger number of people ages 20-50 tested positive. Lots of reasons, including more awareness and easier access to tests for people who aren't already really sick. But as demonstrated by the Maine wedding, still deadly to high risk people when more people get infected who aren't trying to protect others by wearing face masks or keeping their distance.

The quickest way I've found to get a sense of all the states is to check rt.live. Things were starting to head in the right direction a month ago. But then a lot of colleges started the fall semester. What's below is just a sample of the state graphs. Can click and see more data for a given state, such as number of Positive Tests and Test Volume.

We'll see what happens by mid-Sept after the Labor Day holiday weekend. I was out at lunch time today and there was a lot of traffic heading out of town.


----------



## MarzNC

I assume there will be headlines about the fact that the large AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine global trial has been put on hold. There was a single case with a serious adverse event in the UK that requires more investigation. Pausing enrollment for a large vaccine trial is common and to be expected when there isn't a lot of safety data yet. I think the goal is to enroll 30,000 people worldwide.

Sept. 8, STAT News
AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine study put on hold due to suspected adverse reaction in participant in the U.K.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/08...d-adverse-reaction-in-participant-in-the-u-k/


----------



## Campgottagopee

The UNHOLY said:


> Not to get political - while I am not a Cuomo fan - i think his fast, decisive action when this hit saved upstate NY. I think he did the best action he could and it helped. I agree you cannot overwhelm the hospital system or you are in big trouble. But I still feel at this point, we could be more open until the hospital rate potentially goes back up.



100% agree. With schools just starting to get back in session maybe it does make sense to give it a couple more weeks. Then the muzzle needs to come off, imo.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> rt.live



That is pretty interesting. The way I read that, most states are doing much better, but many are not quite good enough.


----------



## Tjf1967

Its really catchy. I know a girl that lives with 5 others. One person went to a party in buffalo. Came back to the house. All 5 have covid. I've been looking for the numbers in her town and they don't jive. The should change the color of peoples profiles on facebook for the people who have covid. It was to slow they way they are doing it. People don't want to come forward and say they were near an infected person cause they don't want to quarantine. At least it they saw there buddy had covid they would lay low for a bit.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

The Maine wedding thing was nuts...


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> 100% agree. With schools just starting to get back in session maybe it does make sense to give it a couple more weeks. Then the muzzle needs to come off, imo.



camp i have to disagree..i'm totally used to wearing a mask..no biggie , personally it should be forever..i don't want to smell someones bad breath or even catch the common cold.. but who am I?


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> camp i have to disagree..i'm totally used to wearing a mask..no biggie , personally it should be forever..i don't want to smell someones bad breath or even catch the common cold.. but who am I?



LOL --- My comment was more in line with opening businesses back up that wearing masks. If a place requires a mask and I want to go there then I'll wear one. If masks aren't required I still may wear one, dunno, I guess every situation is different. People should be able to decide what they want to do and not the Gov.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> That is pretty interesting. The way I read that, most states are doing much better, but many are not quite good enough.


Did you click on the buttons for the past 1 month, 2 months, 3 months? Easy to see that July and August were bad in most states. We don't quite have 50 experiments going on, but probably at least 30 or 40 quite different approaches. More consistency in the northeast than any other region, partially because the states are smaller in area. What I call "cultural" reasons are noticeable between regions such as the southeast in comparison to the west coast or midwest. Not as different as the countries in Europe, but still enough to make a different for how people think about public health recommendations.

A comparison of the obesity rate by state would probably show some strong relationships to statistics related to COVID-19. Obesity and diabetes clearly put people at higher risk if they catch COVID-19. Easy to find stories of young adults in the south who died relatively soon after being infected involve obesity.


----------



## MarzNC

DMC_Hunter said:


> The Maine wedding thing was nuts...


And getting nuttier. The pastor who officiated apparently flies all over to preach. He's tested positive. There are cases at his home church since he continues to hold regular services with no precautions in spite of clear restrictions in Maine.

Making news outside the U.S. too. First I heard that the man is originally from NC. <sigh>

Sept. 8, Daily Mail (UK)
Pastor who officiated Maine wedding that led to three COVID-19 deaths and 147 infections welcomes people to his church AGAIN despite 10 parishioners testing positive - and he's now working with a high-profile lawyer








Pastor continues preaching in person after Maine wedding outbreak


Pastor Todd Bell welcomed worshippers into Calvary Baptist Church in Sanford on Sunday, where he revealed he hired a lawyer to defend the church's religious rights.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'll be more specific. A few weeks ago I attended a tractor pull and had a blast. There's a story behind this year's event. This tractor pull is a fund raiser for the local volunteer fire department. When they called the county for the permits the county said that because of COVID they would have to cancel this year's event. Well, one of the firefighters is an attorney and called BS. He said call them back and tell them we're having a peaceful protest. After that call they got their permits. 
I think it's time, or real close to not having to deal with that. To be honest once I heard that it made me want to go even more.


----------



## ScottySkis

MarzNC said:


> And getting nuttier. The pastor who officiated apparently flies all over to preach. He's tested positive. There are cases at his home church since he continues to hold regular services with no precautions in spite of clear restrictions in Maine.
> 
> Making news outside the U.S. too. First I heard that the man is originally from NC. <sigh>
> 
> Sept. 8, Daily Mail (UK)
> Pastor who officiated Maine wedding that led to three COVID-19 deaths and 147 infections welcomes people to his church AGAIN despite 10 parishioners testing positive - and he's now working with a high-profile lawyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pastor continues preaching in person after Maine wedding outbreak
> 
> 
> Pastor Todd Bell welcomed worshippers into Calvary Baptist Church in Sanford on Sunday, where he revealed he hired a lawyer to defend the church's religious rights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Its sad but I guess u can't trust anyone and just assume everyone might been in contact with someone who has it.

Here in Hudson Valley NY seems like most people now feel this way.


----------



## MarzNC

ScottySkis said:


> Its sad but I guess u can't trust anyone and just assume everyone might been in contact with someone who has it.


Not entirely a matter of trust. Bottom line is that there have been a fair number of people all over the world who have been contagious with COVID-19 who never had symptoms that they noticed as something different from a cold or an allergy. Pre-symptomatic people are can be shedding virus for 2-7 days. So supposed someone starts minor symptoms on Day 5, and has no more symptoms by Day 8. It might not occur to then until weeks later that they might have had COVID-19.

Few people will bother to do an antibody test. Even if they did, there is some chance of a false negative. In any case, by the time someone confirms they were infected, they won't be contagious any more. At least not for while. The length of time someone who has recovered is immune is not really known yet. Can't know if it lasts for a year when SARS-CoV-2 hasn't even been around that long.

The entire point of mandating face coverings is to decrease the chance of spreading COVID-19 if most people are wearing them. Goal is source management, not so much preventing a mask wearer from being infected although wearing a mask can help. Combined with hand washing and keeping away from strangers in settings in the red in the table below is a good way to reduce the risk of catching COVID-19.


----------



## The UNHOLY

jasonwx said:


> camp i have to disagree..i'm totally used to wearing a mask..no biggie , personally it should be forever..i don't want to smell someones bad breath or even catch the common cold.. but who am I?



HA ! I said the same thing to my wife ---i said if you take a step back and really look at it --wearing a mask in public makes perfect sense.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

I feel like it's a numbers game.. 
I've hung out with people in small groups and close friends(bandmates) - masks inside the house keep apart outside. I've gotten tested twice after having to go down to NYC to do some stuff. I didn't want to risk bringing it back to the mountain top(Hunter/Windham)... We've actually had friends up that were recently tested and hung out without masks .. We're figuring it out.


----------



## Warp daddy

Simple : follow medical advise : not science denier quacks, radio or tv talk show hosts, reality tv types or joe sixpack with his medical degree from Dr Google University


----------



## MarzNC

Seems pretty clear more people are wearing face masks regularly all across the U.S. For that matter, in Europe too. The comparison in the article below is made to a similar survey done two months before. The change is pretty clear. Not surprisingly, less change in the northeast since mask usage was already relatively high by June.

August 27, Pew Research
More Americans say they are regularly wearing masks in stores and other businesses








More Americans say they are regularly wearing masks in stores and other businesses


As the pandemic continues, a growing share of Americans say they are regularly wearing a face covering in stores and other businesses.




www.pewresearch.org


----------



## DMC_Hunter

They laughed at us for wearing masks in NY.. Glad they aren't laughing now.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Prior to the return of SUNY





Now that SUNY has been back





God I hope this town doesn't have to shut down again.


----------



## jasonwx

darn kids


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> darn kids



LOL
I dunno it's hard to blame it on the students alone. It seems to me that the powers to be at SUNY Cortland should be held as responsible, if not moreso than the kids. I think everyone knew our numbers would go up when the students returned. It feels like the powers to be could've enforced COVID guidelines better than they did. There we're quite a few mass gatherings early when they should've been quarantined.


----------



## Warp daddy

Hope not for everyone's sake . So damn hard to convince some to be responsible especially "some "college kids who feel they are invincible . Most will comply but unfortunately with this age group they often underestimate the nature of asymtomatic spread

I know i am a dinosaur , but i am very happy to be retired and no longer in the college business., some very painful decisions lie ahead .

I thought they would opt for strictly distance learning ,however realisticaly and frankly so many smaller or second tier colleges are overly dependent on tuition and fees lacking the endowment corpus to handle downside risk . A second or god forbid subsequent surges will see more of those institutions fail and the subsequent economic ripple effect in many small college towns will be enormous .


----------



## Campgottagopee

Warp daddy said:


> Hope not for everyone's sake . So damn hard to convince some to be responsible especially "some "college kids who feel they are invincible . Most will comply but unfortunately with this age group they often underestimate the nature of asymtomatic spread
> 
> I know i am a dinosaur , but i am very happy to be retired and no longer in the college business., some very painful decisions lie ahead .
> 
> I thought they would opt for strictly distance learning ,however realisticaly and frankly so many smaller or second tier colleges are overly dependent on tuition and fees lacking the endowment corpus to handle downside risk . A second or god forbid subsequent surges will see more of those institutions fail and the subsequent economic ripple effect in many small college towns will be enormous .



That's the slippery slope we're dealing with. Our town's economy depends so much on these college kids but, where do you draw the line between economy and the well being of it's citizens. I was hopeful that remote education would take place and the kids would stay in their dorms, my guess is we're only a week or so away from that.

One thing the college did was close it's basketball courts, so, the college kids went to the public parks to play hoops. Makes sense to me, but then the city shut down the parks (again) because they were getting too much foot traffic. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Numbers going back down!!! Props to SUNY Cortland kids for caring


----------



## JTG

SUNY Oswego going in the wrong direction. 223 cases and climbing, suspending in person classes for two weeks.

Plattsburgh seems to be doing well. Testing thousands of students, no new cases.


----------



## Brownski

Junior’s dorm had its first positive test. Overall UB is doing ok though. 
Knock on wood


----------



## MarzNC

When daily numbers are low, meaning under 20 or so, then contact tracing can be effective to find asymptomatic people and get them out of circulation.

My daughter is in a 3BR/3BA apartmen student apartment. The way the complex works is you lease a bedroom/bathroom and don't need to know roommates. My daughter only sees her roommates in passing every so often. Can't really say they've become friends. The senior who's been in the apartment since July had to get tested in early Sep because her BF's roommate had tested positive. She didn't interact with that young man much at all, and he wasn't really a friend of the BF either. But to be cautious she was asked by Student Health to get tested. No recommendation for her roommates to be tested unless she tested positive, which was considered unlikely. Took a few days to get the results, but happily she was negative.

UNC Asheville has about 4000 students and so far only 15 detected cases, with never more than 5 students in quarantine/isolation. They are set up to handle 100.

Other UNC and NC colleges are doing okay too, including a few with around 15,000 undergrads. But clearly the schools with football teams and Greek houses are having a harder time keeping things under control. That seems to be true all over the country.


----------



## wonderpony

Cornell is doing well. They were even featured on Good Morning America, apparently. Of course, I was out birding when it aired. 

Here is their dashboard. I started a spreadsheet, because the dashboard doesn't track numbers the way I want to see them. There have been 118 cases since August 28.


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> Cornell is doing well. They were even featured on Good Morning America, apparently. Of course, I was out birding when it aired.
> 
> Here is their dashboard. I started a spreadsheet, because the dashboard doesn't track numbers the way I want to see them. There have been 118 cases since August 28.


That's good. One of my daughter's classmates from NCS is at Cornell. Family lives in LP.

I started a Google sheet for UNCA. Since the numbers are so small, they don't have any sort of past history or graphics.

These are the type of graphics I like to see. This is based on data for one colleges in the midwest that started classes in early Sept. Plenty of testing and relatively few positive tests except for a couple days in the first week or so.


----------



## MarzNC

Here are comparisons of state stats comparing AZ with two regions, neighboring states with popular ski resorts and New England and the Greater NY region. CovidActNow recently added the ability to pick states to compare. Scroll all the way on any state webpage. These graphs show normalized data to account for the fact that these states have very different populations. In general, testing really didn't ramp up until April or even May. There were clearly undetected cases in March that don't show up in the graphs.


----------



## MarzNC

One more comparison . . . looking at the actual number of deaths in AZ compared to NM. NM has had pretty strong precautions and restrictions from early on. Not so much in AZ. From mid-July to mid-August there were over 50 deaths per day in AZ that were directly attributed to COVID-19. Daily deaths in NM have stayed until 10 since testing was useful starting around mid-April.


----------



## MarzNC

People who like to have open windows in their cars or houses will like the recommendations in this article as winter approaches.









How to Keep the Coronavirus at Bay Indoors (Published 2020)


Tips for dodging the virus as Americans retreat from colder weather: Open the windows, buy an air filter — and forget the UV lights.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## Harvey

Looks like Wisconsin is the hot spot...












Coronavirus in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count


A detailed county map shows the extent of the coronavirus outbreak, with tables of the number of cases by county.



www.nytimes.com


----------



## MarzNC

The midwest took over as the region with uncontrolled community spread weeks ago. When colleges in the southeast had students going back in August, that's when those states started having decreasing numbers. Several large universities in the midwest initiated community spread by early September. In April and May, the problem areas in the midwest were around meat packing plants.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> darn kids



You aren't kidding!!!!!





__





Home | Cortland Standard


Homepage



cortlandstandard.net


----------



## XTski

MarzNC said:


> One more comparison . . . looking at the actual number of deaths in AZ compared to NM. NM has had pretty strong precautions and restrictions from early on. Not so much in AZ. From mid-July to mid-August there were over 50 deaths per day in AZ that were directly attributed to COVID-19. Daily deaths in NM have stayed until 10 since testing was useful starting around mid-April.
> 
> View attachment 6252


New Mexico has 1/3 the population of Arizona, this is totally bogus, do you write stuff just to get on the board here, wtf


----------



## XTski

XTski said:


> New Mexico has 1/3 the population of Arizona, this is totally bogus, do you write stuff just to get on the board here, wtf


New York was the hotspot because of the higher population, but you say nothing of population only that New Mexico had better precautions, BS


----------



## XTski

Damn fake news here really makes this site go to hell, boring reading that I wish I didn’t read all from same person


----------



## Harvey

Vermont Travel Map applied to the entire US:


----------



## Harvey

XTski said:


> Damn fake news here really makes this site go to hell, boring reading that I wish I didn’t read all from same person



The forum has an "ignore" feature so you if you don't want to see what a person posts you don't have to see it.


----------



## marcski

XTski said:


> Damn fake news here really makes this site go to hell, boring reading that I wish I didn’t read all from same person



I am passing no judgment as to the veracity of what you called "fake news" here. But, I do believe that if you are getting any "news" whether real of fake from an online ski forum... that is probably the real issue/problem.


----------



## Warp daddy

Damn straight Marky !!!
Marz : you are free to post at will , those that cannot abide it , don't read it !


----------



## XTski

marcski said:


> I am passing no judgment as to the veracity of what you called "fake news" here. But, I do believe that if you are getting any "news" whether real of fake from an online ski forum... that is probably the real issue/problem.


the only issue on info on this site is you putting out info that fits your narrative , Harvey gave information that is useful on how to not see your posts anymore, that is helpful, you are not helpful and you continue that saying that someone taking what you write as “news” is the issue, I get plenty of useful ”news” information off this site . I see quite a few smart people on this site who give useful “news” information and respect them they make this site legitimate


----------



## Peter Minde

Some people feel the need to be right no matter what.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Peter Minde said:


> Some people feel the need to be right no matter what.



Are you hanging out with my X?


----------



## Peter Minde

Campgottagopee said:


> Are you hanging out with my X?


LOLZ


----------



## Campgottagopee




----------



## Peter Minde

Lest anyone think we're returning to "normal" any time soon.









NCAA season faces significant obstacles


Last week, the New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC), which includes schools, such as Middlebury, Bates, Colby, and Williams, announced cancellation of all winter sports as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. “Given these institutional policies and calendar changes, the NESCAC...




skiracing.com


----------



## Harvey

Telluride converting gondola cars into dining cabins for the winter
					

People will be able to order from 12 restaurant options from the gondola.




					theknow.denverpost.com


----------



## Warp daddy

Peter Minde said:


> Lest anyone think we're returning to "normal" any time soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NCAA season faces significant obstacles
> 
> 
> Last week, the New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC), which includes schools, such as Middlebury, Bates, Colby, and Williams, announced cancellation of all winter sports as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. “Given these institutional policies and calendar changes, the NESCAC...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skiracing.com


 SUNYAC conference cancels allwinter sports


----------



## Harvey

Here's the latest NY map from nytimes.com ...


----------



## marcski

XTski said:


> the only issue on info on this site is you putting out info that fits your narrative , Harvey gave information that is useful on how to not see your posts anymore, that is helpful, you are not helpful and you continue that saying that someone taking what you write as “news” is the issue, I get plenty of useful ”news” information off this site . I see quite a few smart people on this site who give useful “news” information and respect them they make this site legitimate



A little touchy, aren't we? 

You used the term "fake news", (with all of its political connotations) I just responded with your words. Also, just because someone says something you may not agree with or you don't think is correct does not necessarily mean it is fake news. 

In this case, MarzNC, was correct. The scientific data backs up her statements that when comparing the rates of infection/100k people, AZ has a much higher infection rate taking total population into account. 









How New Mexico Controlled the Spread of COVID-19


The state went after the disease with widespread testing and science-based targets. Now it is in better shape than its neighbors




www.scientificamerican.com





You responded to a thread in the "off-topic" section of a ski forum. It would be more collegial of you to take things with a grain of salt and not attack someone that may have a different view than yours. 

If anyone in this thread has a narrative or agenda, it is clearly you.


----------



## XTski

marcski said:


> A little touchy, aren't we?
> 
> You used the term "fake news", (with all of its political connotations) I just responded with your words. Also, just because someone says something you may not agree with or you don't think is correct does not necessarily mean it is fake news.
> 
> In this case, MarzNC, was correct. The scientific data backs up her statements that when comparing the rates of infection/100k people, AZ has a much higher infection rate taking total population into account.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How New Mexico Controlled the Spread of COVID-19
> 
> 
> The state went after the disease with widespread testing and science-based targets. Now it is in better shape than its neighbors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You responded to a thread in the "off-topic" section of a ski forum. It would be more collegial of you to take things with a grain of salt and not attack someone that may have a different view than yours.
> 
> If anyone in this thread has a narrative or agenda, it is clearly you.


Apparently you are the touchy one, giving directions , how funny Harv gave the solution, no reason for you to chime in other than backing up your buddy, I just called him out and you repli with different information then he gave


----------



## MarzNC

marcski said:


> In this case, MarzNC, was correct. The scientific data backs up her statements that when comparing the rates of infection/100k people,


In Post #221 the first graph is normalized data comparing NM to neighboring states. The actual numbers are in Post #222.

But given how fast things are changing, both graphs are somewhat obsolete in terms of the trend in the last couple weeks. I use CovidActNow to compare states of personal interest. The Trends function makes it easy to compare one state to any others. I live in NC. I have a trip planned to Taos in February. So that's why I'm keeping on eye on NM. Plus my primary ski buddy lives in Albuquerque, as well as a few new friends I've met at Taos in the last few years.

I'm happy that Percent Positive has stayed in the 6-7% range in NC for the past few months. Lower would be better, but it beats the percentages that are happening in the midwest and Mountain West. TN and VA are in the same range as NC. SC has been higher all along, currently has gone up to around 9%. Several of the counties in NC with the highest Percent Positive are along the SC border.


----------



## MarzNC

Looking at graphs for NYS and neighboring states would be better if it were possible to start around May. Then could see trends since Labor Day better. Of course would be even better to split the state into at least two sections, if not more. The NYC metropolitan area skews the stats a lot.

Looking at normalized data, per 100K, does seem as if CT and NJ are heading in the wrong direction. The real question is whether the number of hospitalizations and deaths will increase in the next few weeks or stay relatively stable. With more people under age 45 getting tested, that could mean more detected cases but hopefully not a similar increase in the number of people with serious symptoms or deaths. Every detected case of COVID-19 means one less person wandering around infecting others without even knowing they are infectious.


----------



## marcski

MarzNC said:


> Looking at graphs for NYS and neighboring states would be better if it were possible to start around May. Then could see trends since Labor Day better. Of course would be even better to split the state into at least two sections, if not more. The NYC metropolitan area skews the stats a lot.
> 
> Looking at normalized data, per 100K, does seem as if CT and NJ are heading in the wrong direction. The real question is whether the number of hospitalizations and deaths will increase in the next few weeks or stay relatively stable. With more people under age 45 getting tested, that could mean more detected cases but hopefully not a similar increase in the number of people with serious symptoms or deaths. Every detected case of COVID-19 means one less person wandering around infecting others without even knowing they are infectious.
> 
> View attachment 6524


One of the graphs did not have the normalization box checked. The problem with all of this is that you have to rely upon others to do the right thing. But, as we have been seeing, a lot of our country is too worried about themselves to care about the greater good for all.


----------



## MarzNC

marcski said:


> One of the graphs did not have the normalization box checked.


To clarify, the graph in Post #246 is normalized, as noted in the title that says "CASES PER 100K POPULATION." It's just that the screen shot for NY didn't include the top like the screen shots in Post #245. My laptop screen is small. Can only get so much into a screen shot depending on the graph.

I post screen shots every so often just as a record. Same reason I sometimes post a screen shot of snow total predictions.


----------



## MarzNC

marcski said:


> The problem with all of this is that you have to rely upon others to do the right thing. But, as we have been seeing, a lot of our country is too worried about themselves to care about the greater good for all.


I think it's very hard to understand a disease that is both potentially dangerous to some people and not a big deal for others. It's certainly not as simple as saying that COVID-19 is only a problem for people over 60.

Add the fact that someone infected with SARS-CoV-2 can have no symptoms and be contagious for several days. That's just very unusual, even for a coronavirus. Usually just staying away from someone with symptoms is sufficient to break the chain of transmission. As happened for SARS, MERS, and Ebola. But by the time someone tests positive for COVID-19 they usually have been shedding virus for at least 2-3 days. That's also why False Positives can happen if someone gets tested very soon after exposure. Two tests about 2 days apart is a much better way to confirm someone has COVID-19 if they don't develop symptoms.

I know of small colleges that are testing students twice a week. That works. But obviously not practical except for a relatively small number of people.

The percentage of people who have had COVID-19 (some of whom don't even know it) who have recovered is undoubtedly much higher than the percentage who have died, had serious medical problems, or continuing to have lingering medial issues (long haulers). But what makes headlines? Total daily counts of cases, with little mention of the estimate of the number of people who have recovered even on a weekly or monthly basis.


----------



## marcski

Total numbers mean a lot, but certainly don't tell the whole story.


----------



## Harvey

The deaths are easy to comprehend and "sensational" but certainly don't tell the whole story.

I'm wondering about long term effects. Virus stay with humans for a long time. You got chicken pox as a kid NBD, but it can come back as shingles later. HPV can live with you a long time and (especially in women) cause some serious stuff. Chris Cross the singer "got over" covid but now is having issues walking and was almost paralyzed for a while. His docs think it is related.

To me the risk of being too cautious seems lower than the risk of the opposite. I'm working from home (actually at the office, but all alone) wearing a mask doing my best. Seems like we are probably halfway to a vaccine, might as well keep on going. To me it's not a huge inconvenience.


----------



## XTski

Harvey said:


> The deaths are easy to comprehend and "sensational" but certainly don't tell the whole story.
> 
> I'm wondering about long term effects. Virus stay with humans for a long time. You got chicken pox as a kid NBD, but it can come back as shingles later. HPV can live with you a long time and (especially in women) cause some serious stuff. Chris Cross the singer "got over" covid but now is having issues walking and was almost paralyzed for a while. His docs think it is related.
> 
> To me the risk of being too cautious seems lower than the risk of the opposite. I'm working from home (actually at the office, but all alone) wearing a mask doing my best. Seems like we are probably halfway to a vaccine, might as well keep on going. To me it's not a huge inconvenience.


No doubt being too cautious is a great idea! having the right info to make those choices is key,


----------



## NYSnowflake

XTski said:


> No doubt being too cautious is a great idea! having the right info to make those choices is key,






This is why we had to make a very painful decision not to go away for the weekend and share lodging with friends. It sucks but I want to live to enjoy life post-pandemic.


----------



## Harvey

Yea. I know they are saying school is pretty safe but I'm not convinced.

My folks are in their upper 80s. Saw them for the first time FTF since March yesterday. In the back yard, distanced chairs and masks. Maybe overkill but not really any inconvenience for me, and it was what they wanted.


----------



## Warp daddy

We saw my son from Manhattan and my Grandson from Burlington for 5 hrs in the last 9 months ,socially distanced , masked and at Whiteface . We haven't seen my daughter from Massachusetts or her family since Christmas . Yes it is tough but we all understand the need to be responsible and we all either JITSI meet or use other cyber connections weekly


----------



## Warp daddy

Harvey said:


> Yea. I know they are saying school is pretty safe but I'm not convinced.
> 
> My folks are in their upper 80s. Saw them for the first time FTF since March yesterday. In the back yard, distanced chairs and masks. Maybe overkill but not really any inconvenience for me, and it was what they wanted.


The RIGHT thing to do Harv !!!??


----------



## MarzNC

Meant to post this when it came out.

Oct. 3, NY Times








						Identify the Different Symptoms of the Flu and Covid-19 (Published 2020)
					

With fears of a “twindemic” in the United States this fall, here’s a guide to understanding what’s making you feel terrible.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Peter Minde

Harvey said:


> Yea. I know they are saying school is pretty safe but I'm not convinced.
> 
> My folks are in their upper 80s. Saw them for the first time FTF since March yesterday. In the back yard, distanced chairs and masks. Maybe overkill but not really any inconvenience for me, and it was what they wanted.


People saying schools are safe? I disagree. Child's school already has had 2 cases of covid. And they're going for just 2 half days per week. Fortunately, The Child opted to go 100% remote learning about a month ago.


----------



## MarzNC

Peter Minde said:


> People saying schools are safe? I disagree. Child's school already has had 2 cases of covid. And they're going for just 2 half days per week. Fortunately, The Child opted to go 100% remote learning about a month ago.


It's not the school environment that's the problem, it's how the families who are sending the children act in their daily lives. I know of a few private K-8 or high schools that have successfully handled in-person classes since the beginning of the fall semester. One friend is impressed that even the preschool kids are perfectly fine with mask usage all day. He noted that when his 8th grade son had a few friends over to play outside in their yard, the boys naturally wore their masks the entire time.

I can certainly understand why some teachers in public schools are pretty nervous about teaching in-person classes. A friend who is a retired teacher opted to keep her tween daughter in remote learning for the fall semester. Our local county is starting hybrid classes in the next week or two. We'll see how that works out.


----------



## Peter Minde

MarzNC, I agree with your premise. Poor practice at home leads to Rona at school. But I also believe that schools have the potential to be super-spreading locations. The idea of doing interscholastic sports at this time is crazy, yes schools here are doing them.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Warp daddy said:


> We saw my son from Manhattan and my Grandson from Burlington for 5 hrs in the last 9 months ,socially distanced , masked and at Whiteface . We haven't seen my daughter from Massachusetts or her family since Christmas . Yes it is tough but we all understand the need to be responsible and we all either JITSI meet or use other cyber connections weekly



My parents always have a huge dinner on T-Day with both my sisters, their kids, aunts, uncles, etc. This year I'll be the only one there with them. I'm only a couples miles from them and see them regularly so nothing much different for us. Everyone else, as painful as it is, has decided to not get together this year. My parents are sill in good health but they ain't no spring chickens anymore, no sense in taking the risk. 

This shit still sucks.


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> My parents always have a huge dinner on T-Day with both my sisters, their kids, aunts, uncles, etc. This year I'll be the only one there with them. I'm only a couples miles from them and see them regularly so nothing much different for us. Everyone else, as painful as it is, has decided to not get together this year. My parents are sill in good health but they ain't no spring chickens anymore, no sense in taking the risk.
> 
> This shit still sucks.


Couldn't agree more Camp,it's a hardship for all of us,BUT the wise and right thing to do . Wishing u and your parents continued good health. I know just how much they mean to you,you have freely shared that here many time .....a Good Son ??


----------



## MarzNC

Peter Minde said:


> MarzNC, I agree with your premise. Poor practice at home leads to Rona at school. But I also believe that schools have the potential to be super-spreading locations. The idea of doing interscholastic sports at this time is crazy, yes schools here are doing them.


From what I've read about schools in other countries, K-8 schools aren't really that likely to become super-spreaders. Even when a few cases are detected, it has rarely become an outbreak. The classroom or school shuts down for a couple weeks, but there isn't a spike in the local community that is traced to the school. Outbreaks at workplaces like meat packing plants or long-term care facilities are much more likely to be the start or part of a noticeable increase in community spread.

However, high schools can be a different story.

The ACC has been playing college football. A few games were cancelled or postponed when one team had at least one positive COVID test, but enough have gone on that it can be called a full season I think. In NC, the football stadiums are allowed 7% capacity with fans spread all over the seating. It's mostly so families and friends of the players can attend. Not sure any tickets are being sold.

For the schools in NY that have active sports programs, is it all fall sports or did they cancel some and keep others?


----------



## Warp daddy

Warp daddy said:


> Couldn't agree more Camp,it's a hardship for all of us,BUT the wise and right thing to do . Wishing u and your parents continued good health. I know just how much they mean to you,you have freely shared that here many time .....a Good Son ??


 We typically host the entire family including my bachelor BIL for a week in the summer , another week at Christmas and 3 days at Thanksgiving . Forunately we have big enough home and really look forward to the warmth and lunacy that occurs ........NOT Having any of that this year is a real downer , but we will all soldier on and stay connected and pray for a favorable outcome this coming year .

THIS is a common pain shared by so many and my heartfelt sympathy goes out to everyone , but we WILL endure and eventually " manage " this at least transformining it into an Endemic not a Pandemic .


----------



## Peter Minde

@ MarzNC, our kid is in high school, one of the covid cases was from a fall sport. Football, lacrosse, soccer, the school didn't say.

@ Warp and Camp, we aren't preparing Thanksgiving for a crowd this year, and likely won't prepare Christmas either. It sucks, but I think it's prudent.


----------



## Harvey

We've got three schools, elementary, middle and high school. Each school is doing half the kids each day in person, so kid goes to school MWF and the next week TT. The other days are remote.

About once every two weeks a kid tests positive. The close that school (only) for 3 days, clean the school, contract trace everyone, and reopen.

I think they should use the schools as the "medium" for testing. Test every kid once a week, any kid who is positive, would probably lead to an infected family.


----------



## Harvey

Boston is testing waste water for covid:


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Boston is testing waste water for covid:


Has been done for some university dorms.

At one point evidence of SARS-CoV-2 fragments were found in the sewage of the town that is a base for staff and people who ski at Perisher (owned by Vail Resorts) and Thredbo in Australia. The discussion by on the Aussie ski forum made it clear that detecting something didn't necessarily mean there were active cases in the area. Caused a brief stir because of the news headlines. Ultimately no one ever tested positive in that town, or at either ski resort.

In northern Italy (don't remember the city), daily samples of waste water was checked for SARS-CoV-2 going back to early December. Provided evidence that COVID-19 was in that region by late December, even though the first confirmed cases based on PCR testing wasn't found until quite a few weeks later. Exponential uncontrolled and undetected growth for 8-10 weeks is why the number of deaths in Italy in that period was scary.


----------



## MarzNC

A comment in another thread prompted me to look at the NY Dashboard. There is a webpage for Percent Positive by Region. Couldn't fit the full table in one screen shot, but here's the data for Central New York. While the number of cases is increasing, PP is under 2% in general. However, have to be concerned about the fact that Reff is over 1.0 and has been for a while. Presumably the level of community spread varies widely across NYS, so places are okay while others could be headed for trouble again.

As a state, NJ trends are not good at all.









New Jersey Rt


Up-to-date values for Rt — the number to watch to measure COVID spread.



rt.live













COVID-19







forward.ny.gov


----------



## MarzNC

Don't want to clutter up the Coronavirus & Skiing thread, so putting graphs here in the OT thread. Per usual the comparison comes from CovidActNow using Trends. Colorado was the base state. First graph shows the trends based on normalized data while the second are actual numbers. The trends in the last few weeks are clearly not good.

Population in millions (rounded)
Colorado: 5.8
Utah: 3.2
New Mexico: 2.0
Montana: 1.0
Wyoming: 0.6


----------



## MarzNC

The situation in Colorado for deaths attributed to COVID-19 is quite different than in the spring. The general thinking is there are several likely reasons. People are getting tested somewhat earlier in their illness and treatment is better than in the spring. While there are probably a few hospitals feeling the strain of increasing admissions, overall the ICU bed usage for the state is well under 50%.

My sense is that Utah has a much bigger problem than Colorado. There are areas of Utah where hospitals may soon be overwhelmed. The Percent Positive has been almost 20% in recent days.


----------



## Harvey

In addition to the positive vaccine news yesterday, some other good news.

We are getting better at keeping people alive. Death rate has dropped from 7% to under 2%.


----------



## jasonwx

Still 1000 deaths a day on avg.


----------



## raisingarizona

You gotta admit, getting vaccine news two days after Biden has been officially declared our new president is curious.


----------



## Brownski

raisingarizona said:


> You gotta admit, getting vaccine news two days after Biden has been officially declared our new president is curious.


Ixnay on the politay- but yeah, sure. Whatever. Give me the shot and I’m headed to MRG, receipt in hand


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> We are getting better at keeping people alive. Death rate has dropped from 7% to under 2%.


Yes. But it's also true that a much larger percentage of detected cases of COVID-19 are people ages 20-49. Deaths continue to mostly be people over 60.

The high death rate in Feb-Apr when some hospitals were overwhelmed was artificially high. Unfortunately that's happening again, just in different states. El Paso is as bad as NYC was in the early weeks. Also increasing deaths in many European countries that thought the problem was over in by July.

The fatality rate is generally accepted to be in the 2-3% range, perhaps a little lower. That's about 10 times of the rate for seasonal flu. That doesn't even take into account the "long haul" issues that being noted by a small but significant percentage of people who don't recover within a few weeks. That includes younger patients ages 15-40.

Suppose 80% of those who get COVID-19 recover. 20% is a big number of really sick people given that the population of the U.S. is 330 million. The infection rate I've see lately are something like only 10% of Americans have been infected so far. Probably a lot lower in the northeast. The regions like the Mountain West where exponential growth is taking hold are in big trouble if people don't start taking public health recommendations for wearing face masks, keeping distance, and avoiding social gatherings over the upcoming holidays. Utah and Colorado are in the national news for the wrong reasons right now given that ski resorts are opening in November.


----------



## Campgottagopee

The Rona is all around us now here in CNY. For the first time people I know are testing positive. Now that we'll be moving indoors due to the weather is even more concerning. God I hope we don't shut down again.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> But it's also true that a much larger percentage of detected cases of COVID-19 are people ages 20-49.


Good point.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> The Rona is all around us now here in CNY. For the first time people I know are testing positive. Now that we'll be moving indoors due to the weather is even more concerning. God I hope we don't shut down again.


I past a local burger/ bar restaurant Friday night. It was packed!! Zero distancing zero masks.
No bueno


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> Ixnay on the politay- but yeah, sure. Whatever. Give me the shot and I’m headed to MRG, receipt in hand


I know, I know......

But, it’s hard to talk about this situation without some political observations as part of the discussion.

one of the trail faeries here is from Australia. He told me that they went on a serious lock down for a good while, now there’s no covid problem there. It sounds like that if our leadership had made a tough call that wouldn’t have been popular with his supporters we might be in a better place. The catch though is that his poor leadership is what imho sealed the deal on him losing.

This isn’t an emotional, one sided political opinion, more of just an observation. It’s interesting to me.


----------



## raisingarizona

I’ve been working in southern Utah since August. You wouldn’t know there’s a pandemic going on down there. They haven’t been wearing masks or closing any businesses until now, the numbers are going up and hospitals are filling up too.


----------



## Warp daddy

True RA , what we lacked was National Leadership


----------



## Campgottagopee

We had amazing leadership here in NY, imo, and it's back. It's a pandemic. It's here now in CNY more than ever and I'm very cautious about it. My gut tells me we're in for trouble. Hope I'm completely wrong.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> one of the trail faeries here is from Australia. He told me that they went on a serious lock down for a good while, now there’s no covid problem there.


To be clear, there were two lock down periods. The first one was for the entire country for a few months. Later on one state out of six in Australia had a 4 month lock down. Really a "lock down." People in Melbourne (city of several million) in the state of Victoria weren't supposed to go farther than about 3 miles from their house even for solo exercise like riding a bike or taking a walk. VR decided to close Falls Creek and Hotham after only 4 days because of the situation in Victoria. Perisher (owned by VR) and Thredbo (indy, on Ikon) were the only larger resorts that stayed open all season (June-Sep).

There is no international travel out of Australia for citizens right now without a very specific reason. They aren't expecting to be able to travel to Japan or N. America to ski until 2022. That would be like people in DC, VA, PA not being able to ski anywhere but the mid-Atlantic this season and perhaps next season too. Mountains in Australia aren't that high.

Population of Australia is about 26 million, for the entire continent. Of course most of the Aussies lives in a few large cities (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth) that are all smaller than 5 million.

I've been active on the large Aussie ski forum for a few years. A lot of knowledge there about traveling for skiing in Canada, Japan, Europe, and the Rockies.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> I’ve been working in southern Utah since August. You wouldn’t know there’s a pandemic going on down there. They haven’t been wearing masks or closing any businesses until now, the numbers are going up and hospitals are filling up too.


I know several Ski Divas who lives in Utah. They aren't very happy with the situation. Apparently there was a Halloween gathering of around 10,000 people. Only broken up by police who someone called because there was a fight that got out of hand.

Gov. of Utah issued a mask mandate recently. But I wonder how many people will actually change their habits. Although when the number of deaths goes up, that's usually what it takes to get more people's attention. SLC medical staff have been warning of disaster for weeks.









Utah Gov. Announces Statewide Mask Mandate, Citing Steep Spike In COVID-19 Cases


Gov. Gary Herbert has declared a new state of emergency, limiting social gatherings and putting K-12 extracurricular activities on hold for the next two weeks.




www.npr.org


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> We had amazing leadership here in NY, imo, and it's back. It's a pandemic. It's here now in CNY more than ever and I'm very cautious about it. My gut tells me we're in for trouble. Hope I'm completely wrong.


Definitely not good that NY and all the New England states are showing not only increases in number of cases, the Reff is going up and not leveling off. That means community spread is getting out of control in some neighborhoods.

Remember "flatten the curve"?

Take a look at Rt Live and compare the latest summary to 3 months ago. Scroll down to see the curves for all the states. Very different patterns. Not sure what the deal is for MS is but I suspect they simply aren't testing much.









Rt COVID-19


Up-to-date values for Rt — the number to watch to measure COVID spread.



rt.live





Somehow NC, SC, and TN are all doing okay in comparison to other regions. Not really handling the situation in the same way either. So there is clearly more than one approach that can be effective. I'm certainly happy I live in NC instead of VT or NM.


----------



## MarzNC

The CDC published a brief report this week that pulls together the evidence that mask usage is highly effective when most, if not all, people are using face coverings consistently and correctly (covering mouth and nose). There are plenty of references for those who want to read the original scientific reports or journal articles. Some of the conclusions of the report are based on "observational and epidemiological studies" done since January 2020 in multiple countries.

I remember reading the NY Times article about the two hair stylists in Missouri who worked while they had COVID-19 before they were tested, but didn't infect any customers. Everyone was required to wear a face mask back in May while in the salon, both employees and customers.









2 Stylists Had Coronavirus, but Wore Masks. 139 Clients Didn’t Fall Sick. (Published 2020)


A new study looks at what might have been a dangerous outbreak — had it not been for vigilant mask wearing.




www.nytimes.com





Headlines this week point to the idea that this is the first time that the CDC has mentioned that a person wearing a decent face mask gets some level of protection. However, when it comes to cloth face masks reducing community spread is based on universal usage so that people who are infected are much less likely to infect someone else. In particular people who have no idea that they are shedding SARS-CoV-2 because they don't have any symptoms--yet--or mild symptoms that they think are due to another cause.

Nov. 10, CDC
Scientific Brief: Community Use of Cloth Masks to Control the Spread of SARS-CoV-2
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html
_" . . .
Conclusions
Experimental and epidemiological data support community masking to reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2. The prevention benefit of masking is derived from the combination of source control and personal protection for the mask wearer. The relationship between source control and personal protection is likely complementary and possibly synergistic14, so that individual benefit increases with increasing community mask use. Further research is needed to expand the evidence base for the protective effect of cloth masks and in particular to identify the combinations of materials that maximize both their blocking and filtering effectiveness, as well as fit, comfort, durability, and consumer appeal. Adopting universal masking policies can help avert future lockdowns, especially if combined with other non-pharmaceutical interventions such as social distancing, hand hygiene, and adequate ventilation."_


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> The CDC published a brief report this week that pulls together the evidence that mask usage is highly effective when most, if not all, people are using face coverings consistently and correctly (covering mouth and nose). There are plenty of references for those who want to read the original scientific reports or journal articles. Some of the conclusions of the report are based on "observational and epidemiological studies" done since January 2020 in multiple countries.
> 
> I remember reading the NY Times article about the two hair stylists in Missouri who worked while they had COVID-19 before they were tested, but didn't infect any customers. Everyone was required to wear a face mask back in May while in the salon, both employees and customers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Stylists Had Coronavirus, but Wore Masks. 139 Clients Didn’t Fall Sick. (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> A new study looks at what might have been a dangerous outbreak — had it not been for vigilant mask wearing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Headlines this week point to the idea that this is the first time that the CDC has mentioned that a person wearing a decent face mask gets some level of protection. However, when it comes to cloth face masks reducing community spread is based on universal usage so that people who are infected are much less likely to infect someone else. In particular people who have no idea that they are shedding SARS-CoV-2 because they don't have any symptoms--yet--or mild symptoms that they think are due to another cause.
> 
> Nov. 10, CDC
> Scientific Brief: Community Use of Cloth Masks to Control the Spread of SARS-CoV-2
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html
> _" . . .
> Conclusions
> Experimental and epidemiological data support community masking to reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2. The prevention benefit of masking is derived from the combination of source control and personal protection for the mask wearer. The relationship between source control and personal protection is likely complementary and possibly synergistic14, so that individual benefit increases with increasing community mask use. Further research is needed to expand the evidence base for the protective effect of cloth masks and in particular to identify the combinations of materials that maximize both their blocking and filtering effectiveness, as well as fit, comfort, durability, and consumer appeal. Adopting universal masking policies can help avert future lockdowns, especially if combined with other non-pharmaceutical interventions such as social distancing, hand hygiene, and adequate ventilation."_


Shame that our leaders don’t believe in science.


----------



## Tjf1967

Its a shame our scientists can't come up with something to cure stupid.


----------



## Brownski

When your only tool is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail


----------



## JTG

Speaking of Australian lockdowns.....

One of the top guys on Biden’s COVID task force recently advocated a national 4-6 week COVID lockdown, which could be completed just as a vaccine becomes widely available, which would save the economy and squash COVID, like the Aussies did. He said there is a “big pot of money” to pay workers wages during such a lockdown.

So, a national lockdown may become our new normal once Biden is sworn in.....


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

It's never too late to the right thing. 

(Unless you're one of the 225,000 dead people, I suppose.)


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Taiwan had the best response. They did early screening and travel bans, lots of testing and aggressive contact tracing, and strict quarantines for infected people. About 1% were quarantined, and they were checked on 3 times a day, but there was never any general lockdown and most people went on more or less normally. They have had 7 deaths in a population 25 million. 

mm


----------



## MarzNC

JTG said:


> , like the Aussies did.


The continent of Australia and the Australian culture is very, very different from N. America and how Americans operate. Even with early success, it still required a 4-month lock down in the state of Victoria to gain the level of control that was thought to be necessary. Other states didn't do the same even though there were a few cases of community spread popping up.

One thing that Australians and Americans have in common is that a face mask is considered unacceptable for assorted reasons for "cultural" reasons. Also true in Europe. Very different from many Asian counties where face masks have been commonly worn during flu season ever since SARS in 2003. Japan has the type of culture that has made face mask standard practice to the point that even subways are operating pretty normally. Japan has used very few restrictions, and those were mainly in the large cities for a short period of time.


----------



## XTski

Asian countries certainly have reasons to wear masks before this current virus started there, it’s unfortunate their practices have to effect the rest of the world


----------



## ScottySkis

Milo Maltbie said:


> Taiwan had the best response. They did early screening and travel bans, lots of testing and aggressive contact tracing, and strict quarantines for infected people. About 1% were quarantined, and they were checked on 3 times a day, but there was never any general lockdown and most people went on more or less normally. They have had 7 deaths in a population 25 million.
> 
> mm


Plus they did not make it political in my opinion


----------



## Milo Maltbie

ScottySkis said:


> Plus they did not make it political in my opinion


The Asian culture places great value on the common good, and Asians mostly trust their leaders. The English speaking world is mostly the opposite, so everything is politicized. Simply announcing a plan automatically generates opposition in response. That's no way to secure public health, but that's where we are.

mm


----------



## MarzNC

Milo Maltbie said:


> The Asian culture places great value on the common good, and Asians mostly trust their leaders. The English speaking world is mostly the opposite,


Not just English speaking, a lot of European countries are a mess right now. They didn't keep mask mandates or even try to encourage mask usage after getting control in the late spring or early summer.

Turns out the Swiss had reasons to make face masks illegal in the 1990s in a few regions so there is a strong negative bias against the idea of wearing a face covering. Also have been anti-mask laws in other European countries in the last 30 years.

In NC, the anti-mask law had to be "suspended indefinitely" before the state-wide mandate started. It was a carry over decades ago because of the KKK.


----------



## XTski

With it being known that the prettiest women in the world it’s a good thing America and Europe didn’t keep them masked up for no reason , ?


----------



## Campgottagopee

I think we need to do away with mandatory mask wearing. Speaking for myself, I'd rather know who the idiots are right up front.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Our county has done away with announcing possible COVID exposures. They are no telling us that it's everywhere and to take the necessary precautions. It is everywhere around here now. I know people who have had it, who are hospitalised because of it. I had to get tested due to contact tracing, thankfully I tested negative.
It's only a matter of time before we shut down again. It's worse around here now than when it all started.


----------



## Brownski

New Rochelle shut their schools either yesterday or today.


----------



## Peter Minde

On 4 November, The Child's high school "paused" for 2 weeks as 3 members of the "school community" tested positive for 'Rona. All virtual until 18 November.

On 17 November, school announced that 8 more community members tested positive, all virtual until 1 December. Thankful The Child opted to go 100% virtual. Close the damn schools already.

EDIT: According to school principal, then positives all resulted from interactions outside school.


----------



## Brownski

We’ve had some positive cases and done a 2 week 100% remote period but mostly they just let people who were in contact with the positive cases isolate for 2 weeks.


----------



## Harvey

I found this interesting:









Aerodynamics of Infectious Disease: Airflow Studies Reveal Strategies to Reduce Indoor Transmission of COVID-19


Scientists studying the aerodynamics of infectious disease share steps to curb transmission during indoor activities. Wear a mask. Stay six feet apart. Avoid large gatherings. As the world awaits a safe and effective vaccine, controlling the COVID-19 pandemic hinges on widespread compliance with



scitechdaily.com





Singing and tubas bad. Yelling worse than coughing. If you have to share a car with one person, driver in drivers seat, passenger in back on opposite side, windows cracked in unoccupied spots.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Singing and tubas bad. Yelling worse than coughing. If you have to share a car with one person, driver in drivers seat, passenger in back on opposite side, windows cracked in unoccupied spots.


Well known info from late spring and certainly by summer. This graphic was in an article published in late August. Researchers were in the UK. Can find the link later if anyone is interested. I've essentially stayed in the green zone while continuing to do fun stuff away from home in the last six months. That includes eating indoors under special circumstances with my husband who is at high risk. Always his idea when it comes to eating in a restaurant and he didn't start until September. He pretty much stayed at home March thru May.

The factors include: 

Face mask usage: yes or no by everyone in the same area/room
Ventilation: outdoors, indoors and well ventilated, poorly ventilated
Duration: short time, long time
Actions by people: silent, speaking, shouting or singing




V


----------



## MarzNC

Peter Minde said:


> On 4 November, The Child's high school "paused" for 2 weeks as 3 members of the "school community" tested positive for 'Rona. All virtual until 18 November.
> 
> On 17 November, school announced that 8 more community members tested positive, all virtual until 1 December. Thankful The Child opted to go 100% virtual. Close the damn schools already.
> 
> EDIT: According to school principal, then positives all resulted from interactions outside school.


There are very few documented cases of transmission in the school setting. Can't really think of one in fact. All the reports I've seen it's been pretty clear that the infection happened outside of school. True for employees, teachers, and students.

Have heard of parents out west sending their kids to school WHILE KNOWING that there had been exposure (without masks) to people who had tested positive. If kids and employees only wear face masks at school, that obviously increases the risk of exposure that results in COVID-19 outside of school quite a bit. Could well be other family members who are the source for the kids.

For other countries, the approach can be to keep schools open while closing or severely limiting the hours of restaurants, bars, or other businesses where adults gather to relax while drinking, talking, or singing. Of course, if those adults just move their gatherings into someone's home, then there is still plenty of opportunity for community spread.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Well known info



I thought it was interesting that they tested different instruments (not sure why).

The car thing, while it makes total sense, not sure I would think of it. Not planning on sharing a car, but still.

Hey if the internet was limited to original ideas it would be a lot smaller.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I thought it was interesting that they tested different instruments (not sure why).
> 
> The car thing, while it makes total sense, not sure I would think of it. Not planning on sharing a car, but still.
> 
> Hey if the internet was limited to original ideas it would be a lot smaller.


Didn't mean to pick on you. Always good to have other reference articles about the same topic. The list of abstracts sounds pretty interesting.

I'm testy because lately I'm finding more and more people in other forums who weren't paying attention outside their local region until after October when they usually think about buying a season pass or deciding where to go skiing during the upcoming season. Even on forums where I've posted the graphic in #306 before, it's clear that is new information to some people.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I found this interesting:
> If you have to share a car with one person, driver in drivers seat, passenger in back on opposite side, windows cracked in unoccupied spots.


Portland Oregon city commissioner had a problem with the window being open for her Lyft ride home from the casino recently. Got figure.








Portland city commissioner pushing to defund police called 911 over a Lyft ride


A Portland politician pushing to defund the police, claiming that most calls are not real crimes, recently called 911 herself — over an argument with a Lyft driver who refused to close his wi…




nypost.com


----------



## jasonwx

tirolski said:


> Portland Oregon city commissioner had a problem with the window being open for her Lyft ride home from the casino recently. Got figure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Portland city commissioner pushing to defund police called 911 over a Lyft ride
> 
> 
> A Portland politician pushing to defund the police, claiming that most calls are not real crimes, recently called 911 herself — over an argument with a Lyft driver who refused to close his wi…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


It's time to sing a verse from the great Slade song, Mama weer all crazee now


----------



## Peter Minde

MarzNC said:


> There are very few documented cases of transmission in the school setting. Can't really think of one in fact. All the reports I've seen it's been pretty clear that the infection happened outside of school. True for employees, teachers, and students.
> 
> Have heard of parents out west sending their kids to school WHILE KNOWING that there had been exposure (without masks) to people who had tested positive. If kids and employees only wear face masks at school, that obviously increases the risk of exposure that results in COVID-19 outside of school quite a bit. Could well be other family members who are the source for the kids.
> 
> For other countries, the approach can be to keep schools open while closing or severely limiting the hours of restaurants, bars, or other businesses where adults gather to relax while drinking, talking, or singing. Of course, if those adults just move their gatherings into someone's home, then there is still plenty of opportunity for community spread.



Then there's this: 









						8 counties report new school coronavirus outbreaks, bringing total to 66 across N.J.
					

At least 269 coronavirus cases have been linked to students and school staff catching the virus at school, new stats say.




					www.nj.com


----------



## MarzNC

Peter Minde said:


> Then there's this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 counties report new school coronavirus outbreaks, bringing total to 66 across N.J.
> 
> 
> At least 269 coronavirus cases have been linked to students and school staff catching the virus at school, new stats say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nj.com


Good to know. Good contact tracing is only possible on a statewide basis in the northeast at this point.

Can't get used to the idea that the definition of an "outbreak" is 2 or more cases tied to the same location. Back in August, NC colleges were using the term "cluster" when there were 5 or more cases tied to one building, which usually was a dorm or Greek house. But the CDC definition is pretty clear that it only takes 2. In general usage "cluster" and "outbreak" have become interchangeable.


----------



## tirolski

The PCR tests used assay for fragments of SAR-CoV2. The dude who discovered it said it shouldn’t be used for diagnostic purposes. Hard to find info on what NY uses for assay, but found this. Go figure. https://healthandmoneynews.wordpres...rona-test-is-a-fraud-the-epidemic-that-wasnt/


----------



## Campgottagopee

It's getting bad, real bad around here. My wife, being a nurse, is getting exhausted. The biggest issue is staffing, so many are out with COVID. Not sure what the hell these hospitals are going to do. The first round missed us, now it's here and it's everywhere.


----------



## Warp daddy

THESE ARE OPINIONS , NOT FACTS : 
The upstate hospitals will most likely see a continual surge until the vaccine arrives and healthcare workers and the elderly receive the first priority . 

The problem Campy cites is very real , staff has been living these horrors since March . Early on it was the stress of constant vigil , preparedness, training, coordination with other public health agencies , shortage of PPE etc, altho the initial wave admissions numbers were not as dire as it potentially is now . But that constant vigilence and design and redesign of protocols against a heretofore unknown enemy was enervating for all in the healthcare industry 

Now with those issues being resolved , the Post Holiday surges resulting from peoples inability to self discipline/regulate , it is capable of reaching CRISIS proportions statewide . Heretofore small upstate community hospitals backstopped the Metro region where the initial surge impacted . BUT Now the surge is impacting those same small community hospitals .

There NEEDS to be a coherent national plan to manage , mobilize and distribute resources

The vaccines will be reportedly here in late Dec , ????Campy your wife like all her colleagues is a HERO of epic proportions


----------



## Campgottagopee

The truly scary part is how this virus effects people differently. One of our crew was hospitalized with it for almost 2 weeks. For a man in his early 50's he's in primo shape, works out daily. In fact, other that Peter I'd put his fitness level up against anybody. COVID knocked his dick right in the dirt, as he says he was steamrolled. His wife and son had zero symptoms and were positive too. We didn't get together with my parents over T-day, nor will we for X-mas. It's tough going for everyone. ?


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> It's getting bad, real bad around here. My wife, being a nurse, is getting exhausted. The biggest issue is staffing, so many are out with COVID.


Camp, Are the staff out with symptoms of CoViD or out due to tested positive by assay? Hopefully the staff doesn’t have a lot of cases of CoViD. Hope your wife stays strong and healthy.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Camp, Are the staff out with symptoms of CoViD or out due to tested positive by assay? Hopefully the staff doesn’t have a lot of cases of CoViD. Hope your wife stays strong and healthy.



I'm not sure, I'd guess a combo of both. I just got a text from her, "It's pure hell". Not only is she and her co-workers physically exhausted, they are mentally exhausted. The bruises on her face from all the PPG is down right sad. I know, without a doubt, I could not do what they do.


----------



## wonderpony

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm not sure, I'd guess a combo of both. I just got a text from her, "It's pure hell". Not only is she and her co-workers physically exhausted, they are mentally exhausted. The bruises on her face from all the PPG is down right sad. I know, without a doubt, I could not do what they do.


That just sucks, on so many levels. I am so sorry.


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm not sure, I'd guess a combo of both. I just got a text from her, "It's pure hell". Not only is she and her co-workers physically exhausted, they are mentally exhausted. The bruises on her face from all the PPG is down right sad. I know, without a doubt, I could not do what they do.


Absolutely the mental strain of constant stress with 11-12 hr days with gravely sick people with no relief in sight and having to deal with more patients as a result of some people's inability to self regulate is enervating


----------



## wonderpony

I have been keeping track of COVID cases at Cornell since mid-August, when they created their dashboard. In the past 6 weeks, the number of staff/faculty cases has pretty much equaled the students' cases. 

This afternoon, I start supplemental testing. It's completely optional, because I work from home, but I think it's a good idea.

WP


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm not sure, I'd guess a combo of both. I just got a text from her, "It's pure hell". Not only is she and her co-workers physically exhausted, they are mentally exhausted. The bruises on her face from all the PPG is down right sad. I know, without a doubt, I could not do what they do.


You’re with a good woman Camp. She’s on the front lines. Let me know if I can help y’all out.


----------



## Harvey

I get the New York Times digest (email) every morning. It's free, and it's got links to articles, the idea is if you click on them you'd need to subscribe to read the full article. So it's promotional.

I used to read the NYTimes every day, we had a company subscription to the printed edition. But some genius cancelled it. Since then I only read the digest.

The digest is, in my opinion, some of the most valuable free content you can get. Because this content is free and Times will be ok will me reposting this excerpt from todays email about the potential vaccination timeline. Also I left in all the links.


Who goes first?​
A panel of scientific advisers yesterday released its initial guidelines for who should receive the first coronavirus vaccines — recommendations that will influence states’ policies across the country.

The obvious question on many people’s minds is: When can I expect to be vaccinated? While there is still a lot of uncertainty, it’s possible to lay out a rough expected timeline. I’ve done so below, with help from public health experts and colleagues who are covering the virus.

December: Health care workers and nursing home residents will likely be the first people to receive the vaccine, as the panel recommended.

Up to 40 million doses could be available to Americans before the end of this year, from a combination of Pfizer’s and Moderna’s vaccines. That would be enough to vaccinate the three million people who live in long-term-care facilities, as well as most of the country’s 21 million health care workers.

January: Keep in mind that both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines require a second dose a few weeks later to be effective. So an initial batch of 40 million doses would be enough to vaccinate only 20 million people.

By early next year, Pfizer and Moderna are likely to be able to ship about 70 million doses per month, Moncef Slaoui, a top federal vaccine official, told The Washington Post yesterday. People will likely receive the shots at doctor’s offices, hospitals and pharmacies, as well as at specially created clinics in some places, my colleague Katie Thomas says.

February and March: The next priority groups are likely to be people over the age of 65 (and especially those over 75); people with medical conditions that put them at risk of death if infected; and essential workers, like those in education, food, transportation and law enforcement.

One exception to this second wave of vaccine recipients may be people who have already had the virus, making them immune from it for at least some period of time.

If other companies in addition to Pfizer and Moderna receive approval for their vaccines, the total number shipped each month could reach 150 million by March, Slaoui said.

April, May and June: The most likely scenario is that even people who don’t qualify as a priority — like healthy, nonessential workers younger than 65 — will begin receiving the vaccine by the spring. The vast majority of Americans could be vaccinated by early summer.

Once that happens, life will still not immediately return to normal, partly because the vaccines are not 100 percent effective. “There will still be risks to people,” as Caitlin Rivers, a Johns Hopkins epidemiologist, told me.

But those risks will be small compared with today’s risks. Treatments continue to improve, reducing the death rate for people who get the virus. And widespread vaccination will sharply reduce the spread, helping protect even people for whom a vaccine is ineffective. Rivers predicted that social gatherings will again be common and largely safe by the summer.

All things considered, the spring isn’t that far away, which is yet another reason for people to make extra efforts to avoid unnecessary risks — like eating inside restaurants and gathering indoors with friends — for the next few months.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> You’re with a good woman Camp. She’s on the front lines. Let me know if I can help y’all out.



Thanks tirolski, really. I think the only thing we (non front line workers) can do is appreciate those who are. I had a glass of wine ready for her when she got home last night. That seemed to help


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I get the New York Times digest (email) every morning. It's free, and it's got links to articles, the idea is if you click on them you'd need to subscribe to read the full article. So it's promotional.
> 
> I used to read the NYTimes every day, we had a company subscription to the printed edition. But some genius cancelled it. Since then I only read the digest.
> 
> The digest is, in my opinion, some of the most valuable free content you can get. Because this content is free and Times will be ok will me reposting this excerpt from todays email about the potential vaccination timeline. Also I left in all the links.
> 
> 
> Who goes first?​
> A panel of scientific advisers yesterday released its initial guidelines for who should receive the first coronavirus vaccines — recommendations that will influence states’ policies across the country.
> 
> The obvious question on many people’s minds is: When can I expect to be vaccinated? While there is still a lot of uncertainty, it’s possible to lay out a rough expected timeline. I’ve done so below, with help from public health experts and colleagues who are covering the virus.
> 
> December: Health care workers and nursing home residents will likely be the first people to receive the vaccine, as the panel recommended.
> 
> Up to 40 million doses could be available to Americans before the end of this year, from a combination of Pfizer’s and Moderna’s vaccines. That would be enough to vaccinate the three million people who live in long-term-care facilities, as well as most of the country’s 21 million health care workers.
> 
> January: Keep in mind that both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines require a second dose a few weeks later to be effective. So an initial batch of 40 million doses would be enough to vaccinate only 20 million people.
> 
> By early next year, Pfizer and Moderna are likely to be able to ship about 70 million doses per month, Moncef Slaoui, a top federal vaccine official, told The Washington Post yesterday. People will likely receive the shots at doctor’s offices, hospitals and pharmacies, as well as at specially created clinics in some places, my colleague Katie Thomas says.
> 
> February and March: The next priority groups are likely to be people over the age of 65 (and especially those over 75); people with medical conditions that put them at risk of death if infected; and essential workers, like those in education, food, transportation and law enforcement.
> 
> One exception to this second wave of vaccine recipients may be people who have already had the virus, making them immune from it for at least some period of time.
> 
> If other companies in addition to Pfizer and Moderna receive approval for their vaccines, the total number shipped each month could reach 150 million by March, Slaoui said.
> 
> April, May and June: The most likely scenario is that even people who don’t qualify as a priority — like healthy, nonessential workers younger than 65 — will begin receiving the vaccine by the spring. The vast majority of Americans could be vaccinated by early summer.
> 
> Once that happens, life will still not immediately return to normal, partly because the vaccines are not 100 percent effective. “There will still be risks to people,” as Caitlin Rivers, a Johns Hopkins epidemiologist, told me.
> 
> But those risks will be small compared with today’s risks. Treatments continue to improve, reducing the death rate for people who get the virus. And widespread vaccination will sharply reduce the spread, helping protect even people for whom a vaccine is ineffective. Rivers predicted that social gatherings will again be common and largely safe by the summer.
> 
> All things considered, the spring isn’t that far away, which is yet another reason for people to make extra efforts to avoid unnecessary risks — like eating inside restaurants and gathering indoors with friends — for the next few months.



I wonder how many gazillions of dollars will be made on this, and who will make it. Sorry to sound syndical but that's just me.


----------



## Harvey

Surely Moderna and Pfizer will score billions. But they did take some risk, although I'm sure much less than normal because I'm sure they had US Govt money to fund this effort.

IMO the REASON this has happened "so fast" (feels like forever, but it is much faster than usual, average for a new vaccine is 4 years) is because of the potential to make billions, and the govt also removed a lot of red tape.

The real rub, again IMO is that those billions that will be made are relatively little compared to the 3 trillion we've already spent on economic rescue. This may is one of the best investments the govt has ever made, assuming we are all vaccinated by June.


----------



## trackbiker

Harvey said:


> Surely Moderna and Pfizer will score billions. But they did take some risk, although I'm sure much less than normal because I'm sure they had US Govt money to fund this effort.


From the NYTimes: "In July, Pfizer got a $1.95 billion deal with the government’s Operation Warp Speed, the multiagency effort to rush a vaccine to market, to deliver 100 million doses of the vaccine. The arrangement is an advance-purchase agreement, meaning that the company won’t get paid until they deliver the vaccines. Pfizer did not accept federal funding to help develop or manufacture the vaccine, unlike front-runners Moderna and AstraZeneca."


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> Surely Moderna and Pfizer will score billions. But they did take some risk, although I'm sure much less than normal because I'm sure they had US Govt money to fund this effort.
> 
> IMO the REASON this has happened "so fast" (feels like forever, but it is much faster than usual, average for a new vaccine is 4 years) is because of the potential to make billions, and the govt also removed a lot of red tape.
> 
> The real rub, again IMO is that those billions that will be made are relatively little compared to the 3 trillion we've already spent on economic rescue. This may is one of the best investments the govt has ever made, assuming we are all vaccinated by June.


The reason it happened so fast is that government took all the risk. The ordinary drug approval process is: find a drug > lab tests > clinical trials> scale up manufacturing> distribute. Each step is costly and requires approval before committing to the next. For this vaccine, manufacturing began before approval or even before complete clinical trials, because the government guaranteed the purchase. 
If the government is the only buyer, normal economics don't apply. The government will tell the drug companies what they will pay (ask anyone who has a business that depends on Medicare patients), and that will be far less than what a market price would be if twenty different insurance companies or foreign governments had to separately negotiate for a vaccine that would restore normal life.
But yeah, $1.95 billion is a bargain, even if it only ends the pandemic a few months earlier.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> I wonder how many gazillions of dollars will be made on this, and who will make it. Sorry to sound syndical but that's just me.


You object to making money? Have you gone all socialist?

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> You object to making money? Have you gone all socialist?
> 
> mm



No and no --- sorry but anytime the government and big drug companies get together my ears perk up. Don't trust either one to do what's best for you and I. Like I said, that's just me.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> I wonder how many gazillions of dollars will be made on this, and who will make it. Sorry to sound syndical but that's just me.


Being as the government subsidized the research in a significant way I think we should have some transparency. I don't need everything but I would like to know how much they were awarded, and how much they are going to charge per dose. They deserve to make money, lots of it. However, I don't much trust anyone, show me the numbers. Emergency work on roads the contractors get costs plus 20%, pretty close. They love those jobs, and good for them they should get it. This vaccine development should work similar.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> No and no --- sorry but anytime the government and big drug companies get together my ears perk up. Don't trust either one to do what's best for you and I. Like I said, that's just me.


That's the attitude that drives the anti-vaxxers, and it's not just you. You can hide from the virus in your house or we can all get vaccinated. Get over it.

FWIW my ears perk up whenever a car dealer tells me I need to paint protection to a perfectly good new car, but that's just me.



mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> That's the attitude that drives the anti-vaxxers, and it's not just you. You can hide from the virus in your house or we can all get vaccinated. Get over it.
> 
> FWIW my ears perk up whenever a car dealer tells me I need to paint protection to a perfectly good new car, but that's just me.
> 
> 
> 
> mm



Dude, why are you being such a dick? Get over your grumpy self.

And FWIW, regardless whether or not the paint protection works, they pay claims. See it everyday. Douche.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Dude, why are you being such a dick? Get over your grumpy self.


My grumpy self is all that is left.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

My grumpy self is all I got left, but I agree that was a dickish thing to write.

mm


----------



## Warp daddy

Hey everybody's antsy these days : No harm , no foul ....Now bump gloves and get back in your respective corners ???


----------



## gorgonzola

I'm no anti vaxxer by any means - been getting flu shots since my imuno suppressed daughter came home form the hospital 26 years ago, but with so much money and political gain in the pot rushing this vaccine to market scares the shit out of me


----------



## Milo Maltbie

gorgonzola said:


> I'm no anti vaxxer by any means - been getting flu shots since my imuno suppressed daughter came home form the hospital 26 years ago, but with so much money and political gain in the pot rushing this vaccine to market scares the shit out of me


Really? $2 billion frightens you more than the pandemic? Government may not be efficient, but no other organization can bring the resources necessary for these kinds of disasters. The cost of the vaccine is likely to be a small fraction of what has already been spent to support the economy.

mm


----------



## gorgonzola

Milo Maltbie said:


> Really? $2 billion frightens you more than the pandemic? Government may not be efficient, but no other organization can bring the resources necessary for these kinds of disasters. The cost of the vaccine is likely to be a small fraction of what has already been spent to support the economy.
> 
> mm


No it's not the $2B that scares me but the long term affects of a vaccine rushed to market, not so much for me as I'm almost as old and ornery as you but for my kids & future grandkids


----------



## MarzNC

gorgonzola said:


> . . . but the long term affects of a vaccine rushed to market, not so much for me as I'm almost as old and ornery as you but for my kids & future grandkids


What I did professionally was work at a company in the Biostatistics Dept. that did clinical trials for drug development. I worked on more than one project that went thru FDA approval. Several of my Biostatistics graduate school schoolmates went to work for the FDA. I don't have any experience with a vaccine protocol though.

That said, I don't have a sense that the actual clinical trials in terms of patient recruitment and follow up was rushed. At least not by the companies based in the U.S. or western Europe. Those regulatory agencies will prioritize review of any reports submitted for vaccine trials. Each country does their own review. Ironically it was the countries with too much community spread that allowed the trials to finish the efficacy phases sooner rather than later. My sense is that finding willing volunteers wasn't that difficult in more than one country. Granted you can't have safety evaluations for more than about 6 months for a novel disease like COVID-19. I don't know how long is normally required for a vaccine. I think the followup is at least 2 years for the on-going clinical trials for the current vaccine candidates.

I think if you read the adverse effect list for any drug, there are more potential complications than for vaccines in general.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> I wonder how many gazillions of dollars will be made on this, and who will make it. Sorry to sound syndical but that's just me.


If you want to participate in the gazillions being made you can the stock - Moderna (MRNA) and Pfizer (PFE).


----------



## Harvey

Regarding transparency: the vaccine effort is pretty high profile so it is getting attention. Probably will get far more attention per dollar than the 3 trillion spent over the summer.

I'm not a market timer but now might not be the time to buy those stocks with optimism so high? Maybe wait until some people start to grow another head or something.

?


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> If you want to participate in the gazillions being made you can the stock - Moderna (MRNA) and Pfizer (PFE).


LOL

Nah, I have a guy who does that. I pay zero attention to it.


----------



## Harvey

gorgonzola said:


> No it's not the $2B that scares me but the long term affects of a vaccine rushed to market, not so much for me as I'm almost as old and ornery as you but for my kids & future grandkids



I'm ok with not being first. But I'll take it when they tell me it's my turn.

IMO if you are willing get covid, you probably should be willing to take the vaccine. Both have risks I'm sure but no way to tell which risk is higher.

I'm sick of this f'ing PANDEMIC so shoot me up, doc.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I'm sick of this f'ing quarantine


You’re not in quarantine. If I were pre-kids I might wait but as is, I’m all in for the vaccine as soon as it’s available. Enough people will be onboard that, together with the people that were infected and recovers, we’ll be in a better place pretty fast, I think.


----------



## Peter Minde

Brownski said:


> You’re not in quarantine. If I were pre-kids I might wait but as is, I’m all in for the vaccine as soon as it’s available. Enough people will be onboard that, together with the people that were infected and recovers, we’ll be in a better place pretty fast, I think.



Indeed. European countries had way stricter quarantines than the stuff mandated in NJ. Like, you couldn't leave your house for anything. Exercise? You could go 1 kilometer and had to remain close by your house.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

gorgonzola said:


> No it's not the $2B that scares me but the long term affects of a vaccine rushed to market, not so much for me as I'm almost as old and ornery as you but for my kids & future grandkids


The reason the vaccines are available so soon is that the smartest people have been working overtime on it, but mostly because the government guaranteed all the cost. Instead of doing several costly steps on after another, they were able to do them concurrently. That's different than rushing by cutting corners, and it's the big advantage of a free spending government.

OTOH most vaccines have at least a little risk, and I'll accept more risk than usual to control rona. I'm satisfied the an American vaccine is safe enough. Maybe I would wait a little longer before taking a vaccine from some authoritarian country without a record of transparency. but that's just me.

mm


----------



## wonderpony

I'm all for it. I am always skeptical about the flu vaccine, but the Covid vaccines are coming in at 97 per cent. That sounds pretty good to me. 

I am pretty far down the line in when I will get one, and I'm ok with that. I can't imagine being a front-line worker in this crap.

WP


----------



## Campgottagopee

wonderpony said:


> I'm all for it. I am always skeptical about the flu vaccine, but the Covid vaccines are coming in at 97 per cent. That sounds pretty good to me.



I've never had a flu shot but plan on getting one this year at my next doc appointment. I'll also get the Covid juice when the time comes.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> You’re not in quarantine.


OK I fixed it. You didn't know what I meant?


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> OK I fixed it. You didn't know what I meant?


Yeah. I know you well enough to discount what you actually say and insert what you meant to say. The clarification was for the kids. You’re welcome


----------



## Warp daddy

Like some of you ,With several healthcare pros in our family i am very thankful they are being prioritized . 

The Queen of the Hop and i will get the shot as soon as it becomes availble


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> what you meant to say


maybe prison


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> maybe prison


Exactly. Hopefully the under age crew will still be able to go to a bar someday. I miss the comradery of good friends, hanging out sharing laughs and a beer. 
That's why camp has been so much fun this year. I miss these guys.


----------



## Harvey

Dude I want to come back to Trax. Never forget asking the bartender if "Camp" was here and you were practically standing next to me. Like two feet taller, but yeah, right there.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Dude I want to come back to Trax. Never forget asking the bartender if "Camp" was here and you were practically standing next to me. Like two feet taller, but yeah, right there.


You need to come back. Fun just happens there.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Dude I want to come back to Trax. Never forget asking the bartender if "Camp" was here and you were practically standing next to me. Like two feet taller, but yeah, right there.


More or less how I located him too


----------



## wonderpony

Campgottagopee said:


> I've never had a flu shot but plan on getting one this year at my next doc appointment. I'll also get the Covid juice when the time comes.


I don't think the flu shot has ever had better than a 50 percent efficacy rate. That's a solid F, if you look at it in terms of academic grades, for as many years as they have been pumping it out. That's where my skepticism comes in. However, if the COVID vaccine is looking to be at 97 percent effective, I'm all in.


----------



## Harvey

Looks like we are getting to one 9/11 each day. 2700 deaths today, and we're not done.

I remember back in July we are arguing over 1000 a day and was it going to go up or down.


----------



## Brownski

It looks like it went down, then back up.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> It looks like it went down, then back up.
> View attachment 7044


The majority of the deaths were in very different regions between March and May, as compared to September thru November.









True Pandemic Toll in the U.S. Reaches 377,000 (Published 2021)


Since coronavirus struck, more people have died than usual in every state of the country, with 23 states seeing deaths above normal peaking in the last two months, according to a New York Times analysis.



www.nytimes.com


----------



## x10003q

wonderpony said:


> I don't think the flu shot has ever had better than a 50 percent efficacy rate. That's a solid F, if you look at it in terms of academic grades, for as many years as they have been pumping it out. That's where my skepticism comes in. However, if the COVID vaccine is looking to be at 97 percent effective, I'm all in.


Except the flu shot is not an academic test - it is a way to decrease your odds of getting the flu. Also, the flu shot can lower the severity of the flu if you do get it.
I will be getting the covid vaccine as soon as possible.


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> I don't think the flu shot has ever had better than a 50 percent efficacy rate. That's a solid F, if you look at it in terms of academic grades, for as many years as they have been pumping it out. That's where my skepticism comes in. However, if the COVID vaccine is looking to be at 97 percent effective, I'm all in.


My impression is that flu shots are designed to cover a deliberate subset of all possible flu strains. Which means predicting in advance which ones are likely to be more common for an upcoming flu season. Very different from a vaccine designed to deal with one specific coronavirus.


----------



## wonderpony

MarzNC said:


> My impression is that flu shots are designed to cover a deliberate subset of all possible flu strains. Which means predicting in advance which ones are likely to be more common for an upcoming flu season. Very different from a vaccine designed to deal with one specific coronavirus.


Exactly. I believe that they predict the strains in the spring, and hope for the best. Also, last I knew the flu vaccine doesn't help prevent the flu, it only lessens the chances of you being hospitalized.

I never used to get the flu vaccine, but then I had a great ski season one year and figured that I could do whatever I could to have another great season the following year. Priorities.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

I listened to a continuing education program on COVID for nurses last night. (I live with a board certified registered nurse-dominatrix,) There was a lot of good information.

The flu vaccine is 60 or 70% effective in a good year, less in other years. It prevents the spread of disease and may reduce the severity. It didn't keep me out of the hospital 2 years ago.

The US the highest per capita number of infections and deaths in the world. Worse than Brazil, worser then Turkey. Some of the treatments still touted by wingnuts are competely ineffective. Reading between the lines, it was a real indictment of public health leadership.

Vaccines are the answer.

Expect between 80 and 100 thousand COVID deaths by the end of the year.

mm


----------



## Peter Minde

The first time I had a flu shot, I felt like crap for a couple days after. Since then, no worries. And no flu. I'll be getting a 'Rona shot but I'm prolly way down the priority list.


----------



## MarzNC

Peter Minde said:


> The first time I had a flu shot, I felt like crap for a couple days after. Since then, no worries. And no flu. I'll be getting a 'Rona shot but I'm prolly way down the priority list.


Since you brought up the priority list . . . here's what people started fiddling with recently. Even had a relative email the link to the entire extended family. My husband is a bit older than I am and has underlying medical conditions that put him at high risk if he gets COVID-19. The modeling puts more than twice as many people ahead of him compared to me. Even he has a pretty long wait given the population of North Carolina and how many doses are likely to be available this winter. He'd be much closer to the head of the line if we lived in Salt Lake City County in Utah.

The modeling wasn't done by the NY Times, but by some research lab. What the article provides is a much simpler front-end with only a few pieces of input data required: Age, County, front line profession? (no, health care, teacher, etc.), Health Risk (Yes/No).









Vaccine Allocation Planner


When COVID-19 vaccines become available in the US, states will need to allocate them to their highest priority populations. The Vaccine Allocation Planner for COVID-19 helps state and county decision makers by estimating the size of these populations in every county of the US, the number of...




covid19vaccineallocation.org





Dec. 3, NY Times
Find Your Place in the Vaccine Line








Opinion | Find Your Place in the Vaccine Line (Published 2020)


See when you might be able to get a shot.



www.nytimes.com





* * * * EXAMPLE OF THE ANSWER USING NY TIMES ARTICLE
Based on your risk profile, we believe you’re in line behind XXXXXX people across the United States.

When it comes to NAME OF STATE, we think you’re behind XXXX others who are at higher risk in your state.
And in NAME OF COUNTY, you’re behind XXX others.
* * * *


----------



## Peter Minde

MarzNC said:


> Since you brought up the priority list . . . here's what people started fiddling with recently. Even had a relative email the link to the entire extended family. My husband is a bit older than I am and has underlying medical conditions that put him at high risk if he gets COVID-19. The modeling puts more than twice as many people ahead of him compared to me. Even he has a pretty long wait given the population of North Carolina and how many doses are likely to be available this winter. He'd be much closer to the head of the line if we lived in Salt Lake City County in Utah.
> 
> The modeling wasn't done by the NY Times, but by some research lab. What the article provides is a much simpler front-end with only a few pieces of input data required: Age, County, front line profession? (no, health care, teacher, etc.), Health Risk (Yes/No).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine Allocation Planner
> 
> 
> When COVID-19 vaccines become available in the US, states will need to allocate them to their highest priority populations. The Vaccine Allocation Planner for COVID-19 helps state and county decision makers by estimating the size of these populations in every county of the US, the number of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid19vaccineallocation.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dec. 3, NY Times
> Find Your Place in the Vaccine Line
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | Find Your Place in the Vaccine Line (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> See when you might be able to get a shot.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * * * * EXAMPLE OF THE ANSWER USING NY TIMES ARTICLE
> Based on your risk profile, we believe you’re in line behind XXXXXX people across the United States.
> 
> When it comes to NAME OF STATE, we think you’re behind XXXX others who are at higher risk in your state.
> And in NAME OF COUNTY, you’re behind XXX others.
> * * * *


I'm *almost* a senior citizen, but in reasonably good shape. Current line of work, in NJ wine stores are considered an essential business, LOL. Not nearly as essential as health care / first responders.

Speaking of essential work, the local grocery store is so desperate for help that they've significantly raised starting hourly rates. Unclear if they're losing people to normal turnover or covid.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Red pants wearin MF'r ---- wish I was there ---- Canada, eh?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

WTF!!?!! If Canadians are doing that, we're all doomed.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> WTF!!?!! If Canadians are doing that, we're all doomed.
> 
> mm



LOL ---- that's what I was thinking


----------



## Warp daddy

Calling SBR and TD say it ain't so mates ??!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Here we go --- come Jan 1st he'll start shutting us down again. I can just feel it.










NY orders hospitals to increase bed capacity, calls back doctors/nurses from retirement


New York is ordering hospitals statewide to increase bed capacity by 25 percent, Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced Monday. The state is also calling all able nurse and doctor retirees to return to service. The announcement comes as virus-related hospitalizations in Upstate New York rise to previously...




cnycentral.com


----------



## Warp daddy

People's behavior will determine the outcome. I have little faith in these ignorant science denier bastards who see it as a game or a ploy


----------



## Campgottagopee

Warp daddy said:


> People's behavior will determine the outcome. I have little faith in these ignorant science denier bastards who see it as a game or a ploy



Agree. As I've said before good buddy of mine is knee deep in the NYS Health Dept. His comments to me yesterday were that CNY is on COVID fire and to plan on shutting down again. Local banks have already begun drive-thru only services. Hopefully there's snow.


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> Agree. As I've said before good buddy of mine is knee deep in the NYS Health Dept. His comments to me yesterday were that CNY is on COVID fire and to plan on shutting down again. Local banks have already begun drive-thru only services. Hopefully there's snow.


Local banks here are also drive up only . Our county is also ramping up especially in one particular nursing home chain in Ogdensburg and Canton over half the residents were positive and about 40 staff members. There was a fire at one of their garage bulidings and people rushed in to move move a section of the residents that were in a POD closest to the fire . The home is a series of interconnected PODS


It was a very dangerous and huge conflagration driven by whipping winds off the River . Towns People , GOOD Samaritans rushed to help with the effort. In the panic several were apparently unmasked . Good intentions , but unfortunately horrible outcome now ,

Stay well my friend and best to that hero you live with ! Johnboy's hospital is ramping up too
????????For all our essential workers , may they be protected from on high .


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Campgottagopee said:


> Red pants wearin MF'r ---- wish I was there ---- Canada, eh?


Aside from the nature of the video, the guy can't even punch. He would get an ass whoopin' in a bar fight. And why is everybody standing around?


----------



## Tjf1967

D.B. Cooper said:


> Aside from the nature of the video, the guy can't even punch. He would get an ass whoopin' in a bar fight. And why is everybody standing around?


Cause their 
Canadians hey


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Too polite to interrupt anything.

mm


----------



## gorgonzola

D.B. Cooper said:


> Aside from the nature of the video, the guy can't even punch. He would get an ass whoopin' in a bar fight. And why is everybody standing around?


yea they weren't hockey players lol, no "you wanna go?!"


----------



## Campgottagopee

gorgonzola said:


> yea they weren't hockey players lol, no "you wanna go?!"



LOL


----------



## Campgottagopee

D.B. Cooper said:


> And why is everybody standing around?



That bothered me as well. Guess that's the new thing, rather than help someone you video it.


----------



## tirolski

gorgonzola said:


> yea they weren't hockey players lol, no "you wanna go?!"


Reminds me of the Canadian TV show Letterkenny. New episodes are allegedly coming out around Christmas so we got that goin for us.


----------



## wonderpony

Campgottagopee said:


> That bothered me as well. Guess that's the new thing, rather than help someone you video it.


Sadly, no. Humans have been like that for a long time.


----------



## Peter Minde

Meanwhile, one of my co-workers tested positive for 'rona yesterday.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Peter Minde said:


> Meanwhile, one of my co-workers tested positive for 'rona yesterday.


How's he/she doing?


----------



## Peter Minde

D.B. Cooper said:


> How's he/she doing?


Unknown whether he's got a mild case, or is headed for the ICU, or somewhere in between. We learned this at work at 3 PM Friday. Owners immediately closed the store and had someone come in to do rapid results testing. Everyone there tested negative. I ordered groceries for my dad online this week and had them delivered. Didn't want to take a chance.


----------



## Harvey

Dodged it for another day:





My biz partner got wicked sick Friday night, tested Saturday, came up positive Sunday. Rough way to wake up early Sunday, with a call from her telling me to get tested. Killed a major buzz I had from skiing Plattekill for sure. Got tested Monday, just got the results now.

I do keep my distance and have kind of a reputation for being hyper-vigilant, paranoid, whatever you call it.

*The moral of the story is ALWAYS blow off work to ski. *

I was off chasing the Nor'easter Weds and Thurs when we would have been in the office together. We were together Friday, but our space is big (3000 sq feet) and like I said I really try to keep my distance.

I AM VERY PUMPED.


----------



## ScottySkis

Harvey said:


> Dodged it for another day:
> 
> View attachment 7303
> 
> My biz partner got wicked sick Friday night, tested Saturday, came up positive Sunday. Rough way to wake up early Sunday, with a call from her telling me to get tested. Killed a major buzz I had from skiing Plattekill for sure. Got tested Monday, just got the results now.
> 
> I do keep my distance and have kind of a reputation for being hyper-vigilant, paranoid, whatever you call it.
> 
> *The moral of the story is ALWAYS blow off work to ski. *
> 
> I was off chasing the Nor'easter Weds and Thurs when we would have been in the office together. We were together Friday, but our space is big (3000 sq feet) and like I said I really try to keep my distance.
> 
> I AM VERY PUMPED.


Harvey I very glad u don't have it
My cousin who is corrections officer had it and only 40 yrears old he just recorved last week
Still has very annoying cough


----------



## marcski

Harvey said:


> Dodged it for another day:
> 
> View attachment 7303
> 
> My biz partner got wicked sick Friday night, tested Saturday, came up positive Sunday. Rough way to wake up early Sunday, with a call from her telling me to get tested. Killed a major buzz I had from skiing Plattekill for sure. Got tested Monday, just got the results now.
> 
> I do keep my distance and have kind of a reputation for being hyper-vigilant, paranoid, whatever you call it.
> 
> *The moral of the story is ALWAYS blow off work to ski. *
> 
> I was off chasing the Nor'easter Weds and Thurs when we would have been in the office together. We were together Friday, but our space is big (3000 sq feet) and like I said I really try to keep my distance.
> 
> I AM VERY PUMPED.



I hope your partner is o.k. And, please get tested again in a few days just to be sure and let us know the results. Thanks.


----------



## wonderpony

I kinda feel like we're dodging it every day. Or, more accurately, juggling how to stay safe without just hiding in our bathrooms. I just got tested for the second time in a week because I was on campus last week and want to see my dad for Christmas. I should know within 48 hours if I am positive. Assuming I am not, I will do Christmas with my dad, who is 80, then with my son. 
Stay safe, Harvey!


----------



## Harvey

marcski said:


> I hope your partner is o.k.


She had a tough time Friday night and Saturday. Uncontrollable shivers, couldn't get warm, even in the shower. Sunday she sounded better to me, and said she felt better. Yesterday and today I don't think she was feeling as well. Somehow I feel like she will be ok, but it's not based on anything scientific.

I texted her tonight, I know she wanted to know about me, but if she was sleeping I didn't want to wake her up. We'll talk again in the am.

And thanks wonderpony.


----------



## Harvey

Listen if I sounded callous about my partner I'm sorry. I was so focused on myself I guess, and my relief, I guess got carried away. My daughter was so happy it choked me up.

I just spoke to my partner and she is still feeling badly, about a 101.5 temp. Looks like her husband and son are sick too, waiting on results but they have symptoms. Daughter has no symptoms, they have a place at the shore and sent her there.

Maybe this is TMI, but here we are.


----------



## Harvey

Thanks for the well wishes @ScottySkis .

I had been told the first time that the test was 85% accurate the inaccuracies being half (7.5%) false positive and half false negative. Of the false negs, half of those will exhibit symptoms, so that would push the effective "accuracy" higher. Today I learned that it is actually over 94% accurate.


----------



## jasonwx

I have taken 7 covid tests...fortunately negative..but i have confidence in their accuracy


----------



## Peter Minde

I've now had two negative tests. You really don't want that pipe cleaner jammed up your nose.


----------



## jasonwx

jasonwx said:


> I have taken 7 covid tests...fortunately negative..but i have confidence in their accuracy


meant to say I DON'T have confidence
they don't ram it all the way up anymore


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> She had a tough time Friday night and Saturday. Uncontrollable shivers, couldn't get warm, even in the shower. Sunday she sounded better to me, and said she felt better. Yesterday and today I don't think she was feeling as well. Somehow I feel like she will be ok, but it's not based on anything scientific.
> 
> I texted her tonight, I know she wanted to know about me, but if she was sleeping I didn't want to wake her up. We'll talk again in the am.
> 
> And thanks wonderpony.


That’s exactly how it hit me.

I don’t know if any of you remember me thinking that I had had the vid last mid January but I’m 99% sure I did. The media at that point had the majority of us believing it hadn’t gotten here until later but we know better now that it was here in December I’ve been told.

I hope your partner the best Harv, it definitely felt like it was trying to kill me. I had weird pains and swelling in my stomach and chest for a few months after the initial 8 day flu like junk. It also has had effects on my breathing/lung capacity as well.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> I hope your partner the best Harv, it definitely felt like it was trying to kill me. I had weird pains and swelling in my stomach and chest for a few months after the initial 8 day flu like junk. It also has had effects on my breathing/lung capacity as well.



Thanks man. So it was 8 days for you? She's on day 8 and still feeling like shit. Told me not to call her today, first time she said that. She's older than you, and has some pre-existing issues too.

Your lungs are still an issue?

In other news second test was neg. They really didn't understand why I was getting retested so soon since I had no symptoms. I guess I didn't either. They didn't hassle me really just asked me three different times to clarify I had no symptoms.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider

I haven't posted in this thread because COVID has been laying low in our town, despite all the tourists. All of sudden shit got real when well-loved member of our local community died from COVID complications in ICU two days ago. Please read this heartbreaking message from his wife and learn from it. Be safe, be extra careful, avoid unnecessary travel, get tested if you have symptoms. For geographical reference, flying to Edmonton is like flying to Denver from NYC. The people in the story live in a small town, about three hours drive from Toronto.



> I have been asked quite a few times where
> Dave
> got the virus and who he was in contact with. I understand for some the virus became very real and you are scared it is in our community. I am copying simething I wrote to another person over a week ago.
> Long story short I gave it to him.
> My Mom ended up on the hospital on Nov 16 and they called the immediate family to come. I flew to Edmonton the next day, rented a car and drove 8 hours north. They figure I picked the virus up somewhere on my travels. I was so careful double masked, used sanitizer, gloves, when I was touching something I hadnt wiped down. I didnt want to expose my Mom to COVID in case she pulled through.
> I found out she passed when I landed in Edmonton. Spent the week with my brother and sister.
> On Nov 21st I noticed I was slightly congested and had a weird runny nose and slight headache but I usually get these symptoms as Dave and I are non smokers and my family are heavy smokers and smoke inside. The air is also really dry up in Northern Alberta.
> I flew back to TORONTO on the 24th and Dave picked me up at the airport. I didn't feel 100% but still thought the stress of Mom passing, 2 hour time difference, smoke and -30 weather were the cause.
> At work we have been very cautious with the virus so I wanted to get tested before I went back as I didn't want anyone to worry or get sick. I booked a COVID test in Bracebridge on Nov 25th. The morning of the 25th, when I was getting ready I couldn't remember if I had sprayed perfume on or not and took a whiff. Dave was in the bedroom and teased me when I picked up the perfume bottle to spray some on as he could smell it in the bedroom. I had zero sense of smell and we both were pretty sure then I had COVID.
> Got my results back on Friday morning. The Bracebridge hospital called me around 10 and then Ontario Health called about 530 to confirm it was COVID.
> Dave was starting to have body aches, tiredness and a headache on Friday and we mentioned it to the nurse. She wanted him to get tested but as we were isolating already, he decided not too.
> About 5 days later he developed a dry cough and fever. His symptoms were very different from mine. He had vomiting, zero appetite, chills, all that yucky stuff.
> 5 days after that we called our family doctor to see if we could do anything to help with the cough and weakness he was feeling. She suggested lots of fluids and very small snack like meals. Which we did. He started to feel better but at night his coughing was so bad. I asked him each morning if we should go to Emerg but his symptoms always seemed to get better during the day.
> Friday night before I forced him to go in, he woke up and thought he was having a panic attack.. he was hyperventilating. Dave has never had an attack.
> I told him that morning we were going to Emerg. Called the hospital to find out the protocol and where they wanted us to go as I believed Dave had COVID. I had already received my attestation report saying I was no longer Contagious the week prior.
> I wheeled him into the hospital, they took his oxygen reading and he was immediately put in ICU.
> He wasn't in contact with anyone other than me. He never left the house as we were first self isolating and then he was too sick.
> My family in Alberta all tested negative.


----------



## Harvey

SBR, I'm sorry your friend died. It sounds like he was more careful than many others.

My business partner has gone through hell. Fever going up and down between 99 and 102, and brutal shivering. Blood O2 dropped really low. Every day, twice a day I have been texting her, asking if she was ok to talk. On Monday and Tuesday am I got no response and was fearing the worst.

She was insistent on not going to the hospital. She kept saying that "people don't come back from the hospital." I get that and felt the same way, even thought that might not be rationale.

Then yesterday something odd happened. Cell service for Verizon is improving up here, my phone rang while I was on the Straightbrook (summit) chair. It was ML and he was pushing me to get her to go to the hospital.

I went into one of the lodges and just called her. To my surprise she picked right up an said her fever was gone for the last 12 hours. She would not tell me her 02.

She was bitching about the employees and I thought "She's back!" Hope so. I will try her again today.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

My condolences on the loss of your friend SBR. 

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

So sorry for your loss SBR


----------



## Warp daddy

My sincere condolences SBR . Losing close friends is tragic


----------



## Sick Bird Rider

Harvey, Milo, Camp and Warp - really appreciate the comments. Dave was a friend of many of my friends but I did not really know him well. No less tragic.


----------



## Harvey

This idea of changing the way the vaccine is administered is insane. All of the science was done with a 21 day interval between doses.

So after following the science all the way, the health experts are now going to panic and improvise?

Total fucking stupidity.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> This idea of changing the way the vaccine is administered is insane. All of the science was done with a 21 day interval between doses.
> 
> So after following the science all the way, the health experts are now going to panic and improvise?
> 
> Total fucking stupidity.



I agree, but it also makes me wonder how much of this is politics. Who the hell knows. I do know that my wife received the vaccine 2ish weeks ago and experienced all the nasty side effects. She was hurting. To say the least she isn't looking forward to the next shot.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Have a good second lockdown everybody









						U.K. strain of coronavirus found in Upstate New York
					

The more contagious strain of coronavirus widely reported in the United Kingdom has been found in a COVID-positive patient in Upstate New York. Gov. Andrew Cuomo said the strain was found in Saratoga Springs. The man in his 60's who came down with it has not traveled recently, Cuomo said. During...




					cnycentral.com


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> I agree, but it also makes me wonder how much of this is politics. Who the hell knows. I do know that my wife received the vaccine 2ish weeks ago and experienced all the nasty side affects. She was hurting. To say the least she isn't looking forward to the next shot.


What are her coworkers’ experiences? Does she think the incidence of those side effects is higher than initially reported? Just curious. I’ll get it as soon as possible, regardless.

I went for my first test this morning as a precaution because I’m gonna be spending a lot of time in the car with my dad pretty soon. No symptoms or reported contact but it’s hard to believe I haven’t been close to infected people at some point, considering where I live and what I do.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> What are her coworkers’ experiences? Does she think the incidence of those side effects is higher than initially reported? Just curious. I’ll get it as soon as possible, regardless.


I'll have to ask her. I do know that one of her coworkers had it bad too, just not sure if any others did or not. I'll get it too.


Brownski said:


> I went for my first test this morning as a precaution because I’m gonna be spending a lot of time in the car with my dad pretty soon. No symptoms or reported contact but it’s hard to believe I haven’t been close to infected people at some point, considering where I live and what I do.



I've been tested twice. First one came back negative. Second one came back positive, I damn near shit my pants! I had, what I thought, was your run of the mill head cold. I felt tired, headache, cold chills etc. I was taking your over the counter cold meds until one morning I noticed my coffee tasted weird, that's when I went and got tested. I'd lost my sense of taste and smell. Luckily I was working from home anyway, and being sick my wife decided to stay with her mom just in case. I'm super glad she stayed there, gawd that would've sucked. This all happened 2 weeks prior to Xmas. Merry Xmas to me!!! LOL
The only thing I'm fighting now is fatigue. I helped a buddy yesterday do a little firewood and you would think I ran the NYC marathon.


----------



## Warp daddy

Oh man Camp so sorry to hear your wife has had such a rough go of it . Damn shes been taking care of patients under duresss for the past 11 months ,if anyone deserves relief it is folks like her ????


Campgottagopee said:


> I agree, but it also makes me wonder how much of this is politics. Who the hell knows. I do know that my wife received the vaccine 2ish weeks ago and experienced all the nasty side effects. She was hurting. To say the least she isn't looking forward to the nex


----------



## Brownski

Damn, sorry to hear that Camp. Hope you feel better soon


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Damn, sorry to hear that Camp. Hope you feel better soon



Thanks. No worries. This too shall pass.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Warp daddy said:


> Oh man Camp so sorry to hear your wife has had such a rough go of it . Damn shes been taking care of patients under duresss for the past 11 months ,if anyone deserves relief it is folks like her ????



That's sooooo true!


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> I'll have to ask her. I do know that one of her coworkers had it bad too, just not sure if any others did or not. I'll get it too.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been tested twice. First one came back negative. Second one came back positive, I damn near shit my pants! I had, what I thought, was your run of the mill head cold. I felt tired, headache, cold chills etc. I was taking your over the counter cold meds until one morning I noticed my coffee tasted weird, that's when I went and got tested. I'd lost my sense of taste and smell. Luckily I was working from home anyway, and being sick my wife decided to stay with her mom just in case. I'm super glad she stayed there, gawd that would've sucked. This all happened 2 weeks prior to Xmas. Merry Xmas to me!!! LOL
> The only thing I'm fighting now is fatigue. I helped a buddy yesterday do a little firewood and you would think I ran the NYC marathon.


Did you figure out where you got it from? It's a catchy bug.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Did you figure out where you got it from? It's a catchy bug.


No, zero idea where I got it from. My gut tells me it was from appraising vehicles while at work. But it's everywhere here now so who the hell really knows. I consider myself lucky, very lucky. It took a buddy of mine out like a TKO. Knocked his junk right in the dirt, and he is in incredible shape too.


----------



## jasonwx

I know 3 pp that have taken the first dose..No side effects , aside from sore arm..


----------



## Tjf1967

jasonwx said:


> I know 3 pp that have taken the first dose..No side effects , aside from sore arm..


From a big wig at a hospital.

There has been very few out of the 9000 vaccines we have given so far. 

9-10 have been nausea and flu like symptoms. 

1 major reaction but the person was known to have reactions to other vaccines

Sore arms mostly. 
...

Glad your feeling better. Really. Do you feel dirty? To early?


----------



## Face4Me

Campgottagopee said:


> Thanks. No worries. This too shall pass.


Glad it didn't hit you too hard!


----------



## Warp daddy

Geebus i just read that YOU had it Camp , damn that sux goad u r feeling a little better


----------



## Warp daddy

The Queen of The Hop gets her vaccine Thursday , Jb got his last week , i hope i can get mine soon


----------



## Milo Maltbie

The Woman Of My Dreams got the Moderna vaccine last week. She reported a sore arm simillar to other vaccinations. The incidence of serious reactions seems to be very low.

mm


----------



## DomB

Sorry to hear what folks are going through, and glad to hear about loved ones who put themselves on the line for all of us starting to get access to vaccines.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Glad your feeling better. Really. Do you feel dirty? To early?


LOL
It's not easy being an outcast


----------



## Campgottagopee

This is great!









Petition calls to ban Gov. Cuomo from Buffalo Bills playoff game


More than 14,000 fans have signed apetitionto ban Gov. Andrew Cuomo from attending the Buffalo Bills playoff game. The petition says the governor should not get one of the coveted seats since the state is only allowing 6,700 fans to attend in person. This comes after an announcement in Gov...




cnycentral.com


----------



## Warp daddy

Got my Moderna Covid 19 vaccine shot 45 minutes ago , The Queen gets hers Thursday


----------



## Harvey

Good news Warp. Did they schedule you for the 21 or 28 day followup shot?

Really hoping they don't fuck around with the schedules or doses.


----------



## Harvey

It's like _everything_ pisses you off somehow. I've been pretty cantankerous, so sorry for that.

Milo seems pretty durable but I think I drove the Unholy off. Anyway I'll try to keep my head down, and don't take me too seriously.

I am feeling better than a few days ago. Thurs, Fri, Sat were the worst. I've never experienced that kind of head pain ever.

Sunday, Mon, today are still probably the worst I've felt in my life, if you don't count Thurs, Fri, Sat. So, an improvement.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> It's like _everything_ pisses you off somehow. I've been pretty cantankerous, so sorry for that.
> 
> Milo seems pretty durable but I think I drove the Unholy off. Anyway I'll try to keep my head down, and don't take me too seriously.
> 
> I am feeling better than a few days ago. Thurs, Fri, Sat were the worst. I've never experienced that kind of head pain ever.
> 
> Sunday, Mon, today are still probably the worst I've felt in my life, if you don't count Thurs, Fri, Sat. So, an improvement.


Hope ya get to feelin better. This ship needs a healthy happy captain.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey Did you get the virus? Get better soon,

mm


----------



## Warp daddy

Harvey said:


> Good news Warp. Did they schedule you for the 21 or 28 day followup shot?
> 
> Really hoping they don't fuck around with the schedules or doses.


Basically 4 weeks i go back on Feb 2


----------



## JTG

Harvey said:


> It's like _everything_ pisses you off somehow. I've been pretty cantankerous, so sorry for that.
> 
> Milo seems pretty durable but I think I drove the Unholy off. Anyway I'll try to keep my head down, and don't take me too seriously.
> 
> I am feeling better than a few days ago. Thurs, Fri, Sat were the worst. I've never experienced that kind of head pain ever.
> 
> Sunday, Mon, today are still probably the worst I've felt in my life, if you don't count Thurs, Fri, Sat. So, an improvement.


Is this from the vaccine, or did I somehow miss that you got the ‘rona?


----------



## Harvey

Yes I am sick. I guess I over estimated the cross pollination between the front page and the forum.

If the vaccine was that bad, they should probably just set up a firing squad instead.


----------



## Harvey

Warp daddy said:


> Basically 4 weeks i go back on Feb 2


Glad to hear they are sticking to the plan.


----------



## wonderpony

tirolski said:


> Hope ya get to feelin better. This ship needs a healthy happy captain.


Hang in there, Harvey! We need you! I am actually surprised that you are posting at all!


----------



## Harvey

wonderpony said:


> Hang in there, Harvey! We need you! I am actually surprised that you are posting at all!


Thanks for saying that WP. The last few days I feel best about an hour after taking tylenol. The "good times" last an hour or two.

Par. Tee.


----------



## JTG

Sorry to hear you are sick. Hang in there!


----------



## Warp daddy

Harv hope this passes for you , take care man !


----------



## Face4Me

Here's hoping you're back on the snow real soon.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Glad you're feeling some better.


----------



## Peter Minde

Harvey said:


> Yes I am sick. I guess I over estimated the cross pollination between the front page and the forum.
> 
> If the vaccine was that bad, they should probably just set up a firing squad instead.


Harv, the first year I got the flu vaccine, it totally sucked. Since then, it's been a breeze. Feel better.


----------



## Harvey

Thanks everyone.

I seem to be in this new phase.

As it gets close to the end of the day, I prep for sleep by drinking the last of my water. Doc wants me to drink (4) 24 bottles a day. Easier said than done.

Invariably as I try to fall asleep I'm comfortable enough if slightly warm, on top of the sheets, with none of my shivering gear on. (I have down booties and a hat that I wear when I get the shivers.)

I fall asleep and starts to sweat like crazy, but for some reason I don't wake up. At some level I know what's going on, but can't wake up. It's accompanied by the most horrible nightmares.

On the upside, it's different so I hoping it's progression to something normal.

This am, I'm here in guest room prison hearing my wife unload the dishwasher. I can smell the coffee. All I want is to go out into the kitchen and have cup and talk to her.


----------



## Harvey

Peter Minde said:


> Harv, the first year I got the flu vaccine, it totally sucked. Since then, it's been a breeze. Feel better.


I never intended to imply this was about the flu vaccine. It's covid.

I had the flu vaccine last summer. It makes no sense that it would, all of a sudden, effect me now, all at once, with symptoms that line up perfectly with covid, during the height of a covid pandemic. I have covid.

I seem to have been responsible for a lot of misinformation. My apologies.


----------



## Peter Minde

Harvey said:


> I never intended to imply this was about the flu vaccine. It's covid.
> 
> I had the flu vaccine last summer. It makes no sense that it would, all of a sudden, effect me now, all at once, with symptoms that line up perfectly with covid, during the height of a covid pandemic. I have covid.
> 
> I seem to have been responsible for a lot of misinformation. My apologies.


I'm sorry I misunderstood Harv. Holy Sh&t. Take care of yourself.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey, please do me a favor. Please. OK? According to my wife the biggest issue is shortness of breath. She made me promise her that if I experienced shortness of breath I was to immediately call my doctor and follow instructions. She was adamant about that. My buddy who was in ICU due to covid did not do that, he will tell you he waited 2 days too long to address his shortness of breath.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> This am, I'm here in guest room prison hearing my wife unload the dishwasher. I can smell the coffee. All I want is to go out into the kitchen and have cup and talk to her.



You're lucky. My wife left me to go to her mothers house ---- LOL

(totally joking, she had to because of her work)


----------



## Ripitz

I’m sorry to hear what you’re going through. I hope you find some comfort sooner than later.


----------



## gorgonzola

oh snap, take care of your self Harvey and know that you are in our thoughts


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Harvey, please do me a favor. Please. OK? According to my wife the biggest issue is shortness of breath. She made me promise her that if I experienced shortness of breath I was to immediately call my doctor and follow instructions. She was adamant about that. My buddy who was in ICU due to covid did not do that, he will tell you he waited 2 days too long to address his shortness of breath.


Camp no shortness of breath. One thing that is odd is that my Blood 02, measured by one of those finger things has remained relatively high. My reading just now is 98, which about normal for me. Only had a few readings below 95. Doc seemed content with that.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Camp no shortness of breath. One thing that is odd is that my Blood 02, measured by one of those finger things has remained relatively high. My reading just now is 98, which about normal for me. Only had a few readings below 95. Doc seemed content with that.


Rt on!!!

It is so amazing how this virus effects each person differently. Heck, I was riding sled thru it all thinking I had a cold. Go figure.


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> Camp no shortness of breath. One thing that is odd is that my Blood 02, measured by one of those finger things has remained relatively high. My reading just now is 98, which about normal for me. Only had a few readings below 95. Doc seemed content with that.


I think that's the thing to pay attention to. Good levels you got there


----------



## Milo Maltbie

I get Saratoga County pandemic updates from my partner who is a registered nurse/dominatrix. She's volunteering to vaccinate hospital employees. 
Things are still getting worse around here.
Monitoring O2 saturation is better than waiting for shortness of breath, which sometimes isn't apparent until you are very sick. 
Get better soon.

mm


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

Harvey, I hope you feel better. You will. See what your Dr. thinks about taking some vitamin D supplements.
I got tested Monday (with a negative result an hour ago) and the Dr. Says people who haven't been sick often in their lifetime are doing better with Covid. Hence children doing well with it. People who have had several pneumonia's, flu's, etc. don't fare so well because their immune system sees the problem and reacts drastically??? Who knows.
It seems like we are in a huge spike right now. Everyone I talk to either has it or knows someone who does.


----------



## Harvey

Thanks Johnny.

I am taking Vitamin C, D and Zinc.

What your doc says sounds like it may make some sense.

Since I went public Monday a lot of people have told me they are sick too. I was insanely careful. I can think of only 3 incidents when someone got too close or violated regs in some way. In each case I had an N95 on. 

I don't fully understand how the immune system works. If the fever is the body fighting the infection, then why wouldn't taking meds to bring the fever down, hinder the bodies response?


----------



## Brownski

Don’t overthink it. You’ll drive yourself crazy. Nothing is 100% either way. You may have had a mask on when you got it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Since I went public Monday a lot of people have told me they are sick too. I was insanely careful. I can think of only 3 incidents when someone got too close or violated regs in some way. In each case I had an N95 on.



It's everywhere now. Like you I have no clue where I got it from. Who knows.


----------



## G.ski

Feel better Harvey.


----------



## Brownski

Well, my test was negative at least, which is what I expected


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Don’t overthink it.


Not even close. Was really making Camp's point above, it's everywhere.


----------



## Endoftheline

Harvey said:


> Thanks Johnny.
> 
> I am taking Vitamin C, D and Zinc.
> 
> What your doc says sounds like it may make some sense.
> 
> Since I went public Monday a lot of people have told me they are sick too. I was insanely careful. I can think of only 3 incidents when someone got too close or violated regs in some way. In each case I had an N95 on.
> 
> I don't fully understand how the immune system works. If the fever is the body fighting the infection, then why wouldn't taking meds to bring the fever down, hinder the bodies response?


Harvey, Sorry you are ill, hopefully you will recover and not have any lasting after effects. This is one scary virus. Just had one relative pass from this, their spouse is positive but a symptomatic, both over 90. their daughter is also positive and having fever symptoms. Started at a family get together weekend before Christmas.


----------



## Harvey

Hope I'm not speaking too soon.

All of a sudden, I'm feeling physically MUCH better. I'm sure it's not over, but I feel like I've turned a corner. Still have zero appetite, but not a big deal, I got the surplus I need to get through. 

I'm happy (and honestly stunned) that my family isn't showing symptoms. They are getting tested tomorrow. Can't wait to get out of quarantine.

Thank you for well wishes.


----------



## Brownski

I think it’s a good sign that you could smell coffee earlier. Has it affected your sense of taste any?


----------



## jasonwx

Harvey said:


> Hope I'm not speaking too soon.
> 
> All of a sudden, I'm feeling physically MUCH better. I'm sure it's not over, but I feel like I've turned a corner. Still have zero appetite, but not a big deal, I got the surplus I need to get through.
> 
> I'm happy (and honestly stunned) that my family isn't showing symptoms. They are getting tested tomorrow. Can't wait to get out of quarantine.
> 
> Thank you for well wishes.


Great news...


----------



## Harvey

Never lost sense of smell. Had a small list of the top symptoms. Really just fever/chills, headache (CRUSHING), incredibly tired, body ache.

No sore throat, no cough, no shortness of breathe or low 02. No running nose, nausea or vomiting.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## wonderpony

I am kinda, sorta rethinking my skiing for the rest of the year. I am on vacation this week. Greek Peak has been pretty empty, so I have felt pretty safe. I also tend to leave by 11:30 regardless, because that's when it becomes crowded. I think that I will ski tomorrow, Friday, maybe the weekend, and Monday, my last day off, then reevaluate.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> This is great!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Petition calls to ban Gov. Cuomo from Buffalo Bills playoff game
> 
> 
> More than 14,000 fans have signed apetitionto ban Gov. Andrew Cuomo from attending the Buffalo Bills playoff game. The petition says the governor should not get one of the coveted seats since the state is only allowing 6,700 fans to attend in person. This comes after an announcement in Gov...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnycentral.com


I just read that Cuomo announced he won’t be attending because he needs to stay in Albany and work on his state of the state address


----------



## Brownski

wonderpony said:


> I am kinda, sorta rethinking my skiing for the rest of the year. I am on vacation this week. Greek Peak has been pretty empty, so I have felt pretty safe. I also tend to leave by 11:30 regardless, because that's when it becomes crowded. I think that I will ski tomorrow, Friday, maybe the weekend, and Monday, my last day off, then reevaluate.


Doesn’t Greek have night skiing? Have you considered that?


----------



## wonderpony

Brownski said:


> Doesn’t Greek have night skiing? Have you considered that?


That's past my bedtime. ? I get up early to ride my horse.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Hope I'm not speaking too soon.
> 
> All of a sudden, I'm feeling physically MUCH better. I'm sure it's not over, but I feel like I've turned a corner. Still have zero appetite, but not a big deal, I got the surplus I need to get through.
> 
> I'm happy (and honestly stunned) that my family isn't showing symptoms. They are getting tested tomorrow. Can't wait to get out of quarantine.
> 
> Thank you for well wishes.


Good to hear!!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I just read that Cuomo announced he won’t be attending because he needs to stay in Albany and work on his state of the state address


I saw that too. He also has given his ticket to a nurse from the Buffalo area. Good for him.


----------



## 2000yroldskier

Best wishes for a full recovery, I am planning a Platty, Magic, Saddleback trip sometime in this decade. My goal is to ski with Harvey.


----------



## marcski

Shit, I'm freakin' late to the party, again! Harv, I hope you're still feeling better and yesterday was just the beginning. ??


----------



## Harvey

wonderpony said:


> I am kinda, sorta rethinking my skiing for the rest of the year.


Further thoughts?


----------



## wonderpony

Harvey said:


> Further thoughts?


Well, every day, I check the Tompkins County Health Department website, which is where I live. I have started checking the Cortland County site, because that's where GP is. 

This week has been a godsend, because I am on vacation for skiing and a) GP is not crowded and b) I don't have to get there until at least 9:30. I usually leave GP around 11:30, which I always have because that's when it gets crowded and I hate having people skiing out of control behind me. Once I see those kids bombing straight down, it's time for me to leave. 

I got to see my dad today for the first time in a week, and I think that was ok. He's 80 and has vertigo, so I helped him take his outside lights down. I haven't seen my son, other than for a few minutes in ten days, so that should be ok.

I just really, really have this feeling that it's time to stay home for a bit. We are so close to the end, that I don't want to do anything stupid. I think that skiing is reasonably safe. But, OTOH, is it worth it? I could quite easily and safely stay at home, ride my pony, go jogging around my block (2.25 miles and hills), do my online yoga and wait for this thing to pass. I have x-c skis and a couple of places to go within walking distance. I also picked up some uses snowshoes. I suck going down the slightest of hills on x-c skis and don't know much about snowshoeing. Of course, we need actual snow for those.  I have passed my break even point on my pass, so that's not a big deal.

OTOH, tomorrow should be a nice day. I'm on skication. Crowds should be limited, and I can always change my mind.


----------



## Harvey

wonderpony said:


> I suck going down the slightest of hills on x-c skis


This kind of setup will make all the difference in the world, and is a LOT of fun.

Changed my wife's view of nordic.


----------



## wonderpony

Harvey said:


> This kind of setup will make all the difference in the world, and is a LOT of fun.
> 
> Changed my wife's view of nordic.


I used to be completely fine and happy going down hills and through all sorts of stuff on x-c skis. When I was in college, I could head out the back of my dorm into some woods and bushwhack for hours. I loved it. 

My x-c skis are about twelve years old, and not heavily used, because I got back into downhill. I probably skied about the same amount of downhill and x-c until I was about 25. My ex-husband didn't ski, so I just did x-c. After my divorce, when my son was in middle school, he went downhill skiing with the school ski program. I went with him one night, and was immediately hooked again. I don't think I stopped smiling the entire time. The following year, we had season's passes and our own skis. I still make sure that I get out once or twice a year on my x-c skis, just to keep up with it, but I miss the edges when going downhill, for sure. 

Actually, I have two pairs of x-c skis: one waxable, and the other non-wax. The waxable skis are from when I was in HS. I loved waxing them prior to skiing. I picked up the non-wax for when the snow is thinner and the ground not frozen underneath. I also just snagged a used pair of boots to replace those that are falling apart.

I guess I am in good shape to stay home, huh? Maybe after this weekend...


----------



## Harvey

wonderpony said:


> I miss the edges when going downhill


Definitely get nordic skis with edges. No reason not too.


----------



## Harvey

I continue to feel much better.

Yesterday I finally got vertical and took a shower. I started to feel dizzy and turned off the water and sat down. I called out to Zelda. Still in quarantine (until tomorrow) but I was pretty sure that lack of food was catching up to me. She made me two milkshakes and a large plate of pasta and I felt better.

For reasons I won't go into we don't really use a scale around here. But we do have one and my wife found it and left it out for me. In nine days I lost 20 lbs, I'm down to 170. I'm kind of stunned.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Harv, I'm really happy that you're doing better. That's great.

For Harv and Camp - and I don't mean to sound callous about this - but is there some relief now that you're toward the end? I mean, there's a lot of concern about this, but as you reach daylight do you think, "It really sucked, wish it didn't happen, but now I should be all set for a while now that I have the antibodies."


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I continue to feel much better.
> In nine days I lost 20 lbs, ... I'm kind of stunned.


I found some lbs if ya need some.
Glad to hear you’re feeling better.
Happy Birthday Harvey.


----------



## Campgottagopee

D.B. Cooper said:


> Harv, I'm really happy that you're doing better. That's great.
> 
> For Harv and Camp - and I don't mean to sound callous about this - but is there some relief now that you're toward the end? I mean, there's a lot of concern about this, but as you reach daylight do you think, "It really sucked, wish it didn't happen, but now I should be all set for a while now that I have the antibodies."



For me I'm almost glad I had it and got it over with. That might sound weird but that's how I feel. It certainly didn't effect me as bad as Harv or others I know so for that I'm grateful.


----------



## Harvey

Camp you had it last spring, not recently right?

Tomorrow night I am out of prison!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Camp you had it last spring, not recently right?
> 
> Tomorrow night I am out of prison!



I had it in early December, like a month ago.


----------



## wonderpony

What scares me it that Camp and Harvey got it. I imagine that you two are reasonably careful. Camp's wife is a nurse, but he didn't get it from her. Harvey was wearing his N-95. It's just crazy. This morning, I was thinking about the time that there was an employee at Wegmans who tested positive. Their shift started three minutes after I checked out. I guess that being in the lift line is pretty much the same gamble, except that you are outside, which is better.

Next week, I will go back to going to Cornell's supplemental testing It's free for all of their employees who work from home. I just don't want to have a commitment for the last three days of my vacation.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> I continue to feel much better.
> 
> Yesterday I finally got vertical and took a shower. I started to feel dizzy and turned off the water and sat down. I called out to Zelda. Still in quarantine (until tomorrow) but I was pretty sure that lack of food was catching up to me. She made me two milkshakes and a large plate of pasta and I felt better.
> 
> For reasons I won't go into we don't really use a scale around here. But we do have one and my wife found it and left it out for me. In nine days I lost 20 lbs, I'm down to 170. I'm kind of stunned.


Brutal choice for a diet. Glad you are feeling better.


----------



## Brownski

I wouldn’t drive myself crazy trying to figure it out WP. There’s a certain amount of randomness and luck to it. I am a salesman that lives in Rockland county and works in Westchester. They’ve both been at the center of this thing pretty much from the beginning. I go out and visit 6-10 retail stores 5 days a week. There’s no way I haven’t been in direct contact with lots of infected people, at least for short periods. My wife’s office isn’t very disciplined about masks and has had positive tests and she occasionally has to visit correctional facilities. It’s astounding that we have t gotten it but neither of us have. I say keep your fingers crossed and take precautions and don’t overthink it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'm going to agree with Broski. Do this day I can't tell you where I got it, heck maybe I did get it from my wife and she is asymptomatic. Don't know. Then there's someone like my mom who hade every single symptom of Covid, went to the hospital because she had a hard time breathing, got tested 3 times, and all came back negative. Granted her bout with this stuff was just when all of this was making the news here in the states. Her doctor is 100% convinced it was Covid regardless of what the test results were. My buddy who was in icu becasue of it said it the best, "we don't get to choose our symptoms". Heck, I rode sled, drank beer, and smoked weed the entire time I had it not knowing I had it. I thought it was just a cold.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Brutal choice for a diet.


Maybe hard to understand. The idea of eating was alien, it made me ill even thinking about it. 

I stood up for the first time in days and got in the shower. I knew I was in trouble in a few minutes, I was wobbly, I needed something I could take in with a straw. The entire family is quarantined and our supplies are limited, we haven't been shopping for over a week.

She improvised and came up with a combination of ice cream, milk, banana and choc sauce. It worked. It tasted good to me and made me feel much better. I asked for another. Then we looked for something more substantial, which ended up being some fresh pasta.

Maybe we could have done better, we did the best we could.


----------



## wonderpony

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm going to agree with Broski. Do this day I can't tell you where I got it, heck maybe I did get it from my wife and she is asymptomatic. Don't know. Then there's someone like my mom who hade every single symptom of Covid, went to the hospital because she had a hard time breathing, got tested 3 times, and all came back negative. Granted her bout with this stuff was just when all of this was making the news here in the states. Her doctor is 100% convinced it was Covid regardless of what the test results were. My buddy who was in icu becasue of it said it the best, "we don't get to choose our symptoms". Heck, I rode sled, drank beer, and smoked weed the entire time I had it not knowing I had it. I thought it was just a cold.


Well, there's the new treatment, then, Camp! All you have to do is market it and you'll be rich!


----------



## Campgottagopee

LOL

I figured may as well stick with what got me here


----------



## wonderpony

And, thanks, Camp and Brownski. I feel better with the idea of knowing not to overthink it. I guess I will just carry on as I have been and hope for the best.

BTW, I am big fan of echinacea tea to help with strengthening your immune system. I start drinking it daily every spring when the students come back. Last spring, I started early because it seemed that everyone was sick. Then, there is the fact that am I spend a couple hours a day in a barn and share carrots with my horse. Dirt is good for you.


----------



## Campgottagopee

WOW!









Vaccine rollout hits snag as health workers balk at shots


The desperately awaited vaccination drive against the coronavirus in the U. S. is running into resistance from an unlikely quarter: Surprising numbers of health care workers who have seen firsthand the death and misery inflicted by COVID-19 are refusing shots. It is happening in nursing homes...




cnycentral.com


----------



## Brownski

I’ll take it. Let’s stop trying to micromanage who is the highest priority and get it out there. If a high enough percentage of the population gets it, it protects the others too right?


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> ... I can't tell you where I got it, ... Heck, I rode sled, drank beer, and smoked weed the entire time I had it not knowing I had it. I thought it was just a cold.


Camp, Have ya noticed any Covid related brain-fog?
Just sayin .


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Camp, Have ya noticed any Covid related brain-fog?
> Just sayin .


LOL!!
That was funny AF!

Nah, woulda killed a normal man. It's a lifestyle.


----------



## JTG

Campgottagopee said:


> WOW!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine rollout hits snag as health workers balk at shots
> 
> 
> The desperately awaited vaccination drive against the coronavirus in the U. S. is running into resistance from an unlikely quarter: Surprising numbers of health care workers who have seen firsthand the death and misery inflicted by COVID-19 are refusing shots. It is happening in nursing homes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnycentral.com


It’s not that surprising that many aren’t lining up, really. That medical professionals are reluctant only highlights why, given that they are in a better position than others to understand medical risks. As good as it will be if the vaccines bring the virus under control, the reality is there are a lot of unknowns surrounding messenger RNA vaccine, used for the first time, and even the traditional vaccine, all developed and brought to market at warp speed. When it come to medical stuff like this I believe fear of the unknown is not only warranted, but prudent. Doesn’t necessarily mean we won’t get the vaccine, but I’m not all that upset that it will be some time before we can, give us more time to figure out how we feel about it.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> WOW!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine rollout hits snag as health workers balk at shots
> 
> 
> The desperately awaited vaccination drive against the coronavirus in the U. S. is running into resistance from an unlikely quarter: Surprising numbers of health care workers who have seen firsthand the death and misery inflicted by COVID-19 are refusing shots. It is happening in nursing homes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnycentral.com


I have 3 doc friends that took it 10 days ago
RNA vac has been in the works for many years


----------



## JTG

Yeah, they’ve been working on them for years, but this is the first time they’ve ever been used. As for things medical, not really sure I want to be in on the first. When the time comes that I can get it, and I decide to get it, hope I can get traditional and not mRNA,


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> Camp you had it last spring, not recently right?
> 
> Tomorrow night I am out of prison!


Am I the only one that pays attention?? He had it like 4 weeks ago.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Hope I'm not speaking too soon.
> 
> All of a sudden, I'm feeling physically MUCH better. I'm sure it's not over, but I feel like I've turned a corner. Still have zero appetite, but not a big deal, I got the surplus I need to get through.
> 
> I'm happy (and honestly stunned) that my family isn't showing symptoms. They are getting tested tomorrow. Can't wait to get out of quarantine.
> 
> Thank you for well wishes.


Glad you are feeling better!


----------



## Harvey

Harvey said:


> Really hoping they don't fuck around with the schedules or doses.


 
I sense cracks in commitment to following vaccine protocols. How stupid are we? Time will tell.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I sense cracks in commitment to following Science. How stupid are we? Time will tell.


Hopefully not


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> I continue to feel much better.
> 
> Yesterday I finally got vertical and took a shower. I started to feel dizzy and turned off the water and sat down. I called out to Zelda. Still in quarantine (until tomorrow) but I was pretty sure that lack of food was catching up to me. She made me two milkshakes and a large plate of pasta and I felt better.
> 
> For reasons I won't go into we don't really use a scale around here. But we do have one and my wife found it and left it out for me. In nine days I lost 20 lbs, I'm down to 170. I'm kind of stunned.


This sounds a lot like how it effected me. I don’t know if anyone remembers but I had it last January, before we thought it was even here. Every health care person I know says that I definitely had it when I describe the signs and symptoms I had.

it was gnarly af man! I could barely move for 8 days. The pools of sweat I woke up in every morning were massive. I couldn’t taste anything or eat.


----------



## Harvey

RA, I thought about you a lot during my ordeal. Your description of the shivering. My whole body was sore and moving was really tough. I'd go between shivering and sweat quickly, and have no easy way of adjusting my clothing/temp, and no one could come in and help me.

It sounds like you suffered quite a bit, maybe more than I did.

The fact that my blood 02 stayed high the whole time, helped me feel I would make it.

I found the whole thing to be very emotional too. Even the slightest criticism of how we (Zelda and I) handled it made me say "f you" under my breath.

I took a bike ride yesterday and I actually found the lack of the 20 lbs pretty amazing, climbing I felt no pressure on my knees. Every bit of push seemed to translate into forward movement, vs any pain.


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> RA, I thought about you a lot during my ordeal. Your description of the shivering. My whole body was sore and moving was really tough. I'd go between shivering and sweat quickly, and have no easy way of adjusting my clothing/temp, and no one could come in and help me.
> 
> It sounds like you suffered quite a bit, maybe more than I did.
> 
> Somehow, deep down, the fact that my blood 02 stayed high the whole time, helped me feel I would make it.
> 
> I found the whole thing to be very emotional too. Even the slightest criticism of how we (Zelda and I) handled it made me say "fuck you" under my breath.
> 
> I took a bike ride yesterday and I actually found the lack of the 20 lbs pretty amazing, climbing I felt no pressure on my knees. Every bit of push seemed to translate into forward movement, vs any pain.


Yup. I needed 3 hours of sleep after getting up and walking 25 feet into the kitchen to heat up soup I could barely slurp down .

The shivers and sweats......good god it was insane.

I had that post covid crap too btw, for two months after that initial 8 days I had a hard time hiking up hill and breathing, there were also all kinds of strange pain and swelling inside my core body. I’m pretty sure my heart swelled up. I couldn’t sleep on my stomach because of the discomfort against my sternum.

I never got tested but it sure wasn’t the standard flu.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Good to hear you two are feeling better.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> This sounds a lot like how it effected me. I don’t know if anyone remembers but I had it last January, before we thought it was even here. Every health care person I know says that I definitely had it when I describe the signs and symptoms I had.
> 
> it was gnarly af man! I could barely move for 8 days. The pools of sweat I woke up in every morning were massive. I couldn’t taste anything or eat.


I remember when that was going on. You had crazy high temperature too.


----------



## raisingarizona

The first day I hit 102.5 but after that it hovered around 100 to 101 for a week. It crushed me.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Yep, my mom had a temp of over 100 for 3 months --- but three tests showed she was negative


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> Yep, my mom had a temp of over 100 for 3 months --- but three tests showed she was negative


If I’ve learned anything from this pandemic it’s to take expert medical advice and media releases with a very large grain of salt.

100 for 3 months? F that sounds awful. Sorry to hear Camp.


----------



## jasonwx

Got my vaccine date
March 22 ?

wish it was sooner


----------



## DomB

Also, just FYI in case folks have not seen, it looks like at noon the CDC will rec distribution of the vaccine to anyone over 65 or with preexisting conditions. That might cover a chunk of folks on the blog. 
Note that NYS would have to choose to implement this recommendation (unclear though my guess is NYS would).


----------



## Tjf1967

jasonwx said:


> Got my vaccine date
> March 22 ?
> 
> wish it was sooner


How did you do it? I provide care for my 78 year old pop with Dementia and when I went through the website it said not high risk, vaccine not available at this time. GEEZ. Groups with strong unions take precedence over the elderly. Really ticks me off.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> anyone over 65 or with preexisting conditions. That might cover a chunk of folks on the blog.


Slightly over 65 but only preexisting condition is running out of beer occasionally. I believe that wouldn’t count. I still have back up cider. Thank God.


----------



## jasonwx

Money honey


----------



## Campgottagopee

My wife is off to get her second shot


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Slightly over 65 but only preexisting condition is running out of beer occasionally. I believe that wouldn’t count. I still have back up cider. Thank God.



Yes, thank God.


----------



## jasonwx

Just joking
I’m in education


----------



## Milo Maltbie

My girlfriend was vaccinated by the hospital where she works. If you work in an institution that is a qualified provider and gets a direct allocation of vaccine, it's easy. For the general public not so much. I'm eligible but so are 7 million others in NY. The state is getting 300,000 doses per week. Do the math, it's gonna be six months unless something changes.

mm


----------



## sig

a friend had round two of the vaccine yesterday. while round 1 had no adverse side effects, round 2 produced nausea, aches, chills and slight fever.


----------



## JTG

My wife (she’s a teacher) has an appointment for the first dose next week. She’s still not sure how she feels about it.....


----------



## Campgottagopee

JTG said:


> She’s still not sure how she feels about it.....



To be honest I'm not either. My wife is now on day 2 of the second round. Day 4 is when shit hit the fan for her with the first one, man I hope that doesn't happen again.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> To be honest I'm not either. My wife is now on day 2 of the second round. Day 4 is when shit hit the fan for her with the first one, man I hope that doesn't happen again.


Well hell, we shouldn't know what to really think or how to feel about it imo. They rolled that thing out really fast and like I've said before, if this last year has taught us anything it's to question every bit of information we are being fed to by the US media. Unfortunately, critical thinking skills are not the majorities forte, that's why I think that in part, this country is so harshly divided today. 

That being said I'll probably get the vaccine here in a few months. If it helps us get back to normal again I think I'm steering towards taking the risk. This "new normal" crap needs to go away.


----------



## Campgottagopee

My cousins national guard unit is at the Capitol. They will be there until January 30th, sleeping wherever they can.
"New normal" crap definitely needs to go away. 
I just got this picture.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> My cousins national guard unit is at the Capitol. They will be there until January 30th, sleeping wherever they can.
> "New normal" crap definitely needs to go away.
> I just got this picture.View attachment 7510


at least set up some temporary barrack for the guys and girls


----------



## Campgottagopee

LOL, right? If you didn't have a bad back before you will in 2 weeks!!


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Woo hoo! Got a vaccine appointment on February 14!

mm


----------



## jasonwx

Milo Maltbie said:


> Woo hoo! Got a vaccine appointment on February 14!
> 
> mm


i'm on the 13th


----------



## G.ski

raisingarizona said:


> That being said I'll probably get the vaccine here in a few months. If it helps us get back to normal again I think I'm steering towards taking the risk. This "new normal" crap needs to go away.


My feeling as well. Not in any rush I'd prefer to let those who need to be first or who are truly scared get it first. Some folks here are freaking out that they have to wait and are scouring vaccination sites to try to get it no matter the cost or time involved. I'm not high risk and I just don't get that type of behavior.


----------



## Harvey

Personally I'm willing to wait until I'm sure I can get the second shot at the recommended time. Seems like a lot of unscientific panic going on... "shoot em up!" I think they have to be sure about the supply of second doses, the messaging I'm hearing doesn't give me a lot of confidence.


----------



## jasonwx

Harvey said:


> Personally I'm willing to wait until I'm sure I can get the second shot at the recommended time. Seems like a lot of unscientific panic going on... "shoot em up!" I think they have to be sure about the supply of second doses, the messaging I'm hearing doesn't give me a lot of confidence.


harv
you have been vaccinated...the hard way


----------



## Harvey

There's no real proof of that. 

My doc is saying "you probably has some amount of immunity for some amount of time. No one knows what that is."


----------



## Brownski

i think you’re doctor is saying “yes, you’re immune” but is leaving enough wiggle room in case you’re the 1 in a 1000 who isn’t. You suffered for it, I say go ski


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> Personally I'm willing to wait until I'm sure I can get the second shot at the recommended time. Seems like a lot of unscientific panic going on... "shoot em up!" I think they have to be sure about the supply of second doses, the messaging I'm hearing doesn't give me a lot of confidence.


I'm thinking in 4 weeks we'll know if the second shot is reliably available. If it's not, I'll cancel my appointment.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

G.ski said:


> Not in any rush I'd prefer to let those who need to be first or who are truly scared get it first. Some folks here are freaking out that they have to wait and are scouring vaccination sites to try to get it no matter the cost or time involved. I'm not high risk and I just don't get that type of behavior.


I thought about that but I decided that if the CDC determined that I was qualified, I'm gonna get it. Still, maybe their criteria might be too tilted toward old people because they are using political logic on a math problem. Maybe waitresses, bartenders and teachers should be at the head of the line, but those decisions are above my pay grade.

mm


----------



## jasonwx

In 1947
Nyc vaccinated 6 million pp in a month 
What the f are we going wrong


----------



## wonderpony

I am so far down the food chain, that I think that it will be pushing September before I can get vaccinated. And, I'm ok with that. My dad, who is 80, and my son, who works in construction and has been onsite throughout the pandemic, need it way before I do. I can continue to work from home. With a wee bit of luck, I won't get it, and if I do, hopefully my daily diet of barn dirt has strengthened my immune system.


----------



## wonderpony

jasonwx said:


> In 1947
> Nyc vaccinated 6 million pp in a month
> What the f are we going wrong


Just not enough vaccine...


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> i think you’re doctor is saying “yes, you’re immune” but is leaving enough wiggle room in case you’re the 1 in a 1000 who isn’t. You suffered for it, I say go ski



I didn't expect you to understand. And as my friend, I hope you never do.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I didn't expect you to understand. And as my friend, I hope you never do.


I get it. Just trying to help


----------



## wonderpony

I think of you, every day, Harvey. I think about the fact that it was a struggle to drink 4 liters of water a day. I think about my six crazy chickens, and who would take care of them, if I were laid up for a week. There are all these little things that we take for granted, but then what if you suddenly can't?


----------



## x10003q

jasonwx said:


> In 1947
> Nyc vaccinated 6 million pp in a month
> What the f are we going wrong


Really? You can't figure it out?


----------



## Harvey

wonderpony said:


> I think of you, every day, Harvey. I think about the fact that it was a struggle to drink 4 liters of water a day. I think about my six crazy chickens, and who would take care of them, if I were laid up for a week. There are all these little things that we take for granted, but then what if you suddenly can't?



Sorry if this is corny, but I find this touching. Thank you.

The thing that worried me the most was not that different... what would our 14yo do if both Zelda and I were incapacitated?


----------



## wonderpony

Harvey said:


> Sorry if this is corny, but I find this touching. Thank you.
> 
> The thing that worried me the most was not that different... what would our 14yo do if both Zelda and I were incapacitated?


It's not corny. I get it. After my crash and burn off of Draco that resulted in screws and plates to stabilize a fractured L1, I was dependent on everybody. I remember how carefully I had to roll out of bed, just to get up. My son was 14 at the time.

I have a friend who told me that once something like that happens, you become mortal. That doesn't mean I quit riding, but I am a lot more cautious than I used to be. 

Hang in there, Harvey! And, please keep the ski forum going! We need it!


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> There's no real proof of that.
> 
> My doc is saying "you probably has some amount of immunity for some amount of time. No one knows what that is."


Research is ongoing about immunity after recovery from COVID-19. Here's a recent report from the UK.

Jan. 14, Public Health England
Past COVID-19 infection provides some immunity but people may still carry and transmit virus
_Study finds past coronavirus (COVID-19) infection provides some immunity for at least 5 months, but people may still carry and transmit the virus._









						Past COVID-19 infection provides some immunity but people may still carry and transmit virus
					

Study finds past coronavirus (COVID-19) infection provides some immunity for at least 5 months, but people may still carry and transmit the virus.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> The thing that worried me the most was not that different... what would our 14yo do if both Zelda and I were incapacitated?


My friend who is in my pod is a single parent of a tween. She definitely worries differently because of that reality.

My daughter in college started a job a month ago that involves work that is medically related enough that she'll get vaccinated sooner rather than later. Definitely makes me feel better even though she's been careful and lucky enough to stay healthy for the past year.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Research is ongoing about immunity after recovery from COVID-19. Here's a recent report from the UK.
> 
> Jan. 14, Public Health England
> Past COVID-19 infection provides some immunity but people may still carry and transmit virus
> _Study finds past coronavirus (COVID-19) infection provides some immunity for at least 5 months, but people may still carry and transmit the virus._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Past COVID-19 infection provides some immunity but people may still carry and transmit virus
> 
> 
> Study finds past coronavirus (COVID-19) infection provides some immunity for at least 5 months, but people may still carry and transmit the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk



I actually read that article and several others. Based on what I've read the odds of a second infection seem low for some period of time.

I'm not saying my fear, or the concerns of my family, are based in science. It's fear, by definition not always rational.

When I got out of quarantine I went on a mtb ride, and came to this one pinch point on my ride. My route goes over a dam, and there is no way to ditch into the woods or do any of the various tricks I've developed to avoid clueless, maskless, loud pedestrians. I came across the largest group I've ever seen on the dam - about 30. (Usually a large group might be 6.) It took several minutes for the group to dissipate. I'm tired of people looking at me funny when I'm not willing to weave through a gaunlet 18 inches wide that they graciously provide.

Yea I know it all sounds irrational. It's fear. If you go through it the way I did, and you have no fear, that's awesome. The first real snow in a while, on holiday weekend just didn't seem appealing to me. I'm thinking a weekday a Plattekill or some bc in the Siamese Wilderness might be my reentry.

Also I get tired, and feel that my usual driving insanity might best postponed for a while.

Skiing should be fun.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Skiing should be fun.



Amen 

It has not been fun for me since I blew my knee out.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I actually read that article and several others. Based on what I've read the odds of a second infection seem low for some period of time.
> 
> Also I get tired, and feel that my usual driving insanity might best postponed for a while.
> 
> Skiing should be fun.


Getting exercise is good. Over doing it actually lowers your immune system’s defenses. In college years ago was feeling really tired, went and got a test for mono. Got a call back saying test was negative, so I went to play hoops figuring just needed to get some exercise. Got back to dorm from hoops and there was a message, sorry, the results were positive for mono. Went to bed for a bit after that.

Skiing is fun. Lots of ways and places to do it.


----------



## Ripitz

Barn dirt and skiing are two of the best things for the mind, body and spirit


----------



## jasonwx

x10003q said:


> Really? You can't figure it out?


I guess in 47 we knew how to work together as a country and we had competent leaders


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> No, zero idea where I got it from. My gut tells me it was from appraising vehicles while at work. But it's everywhere here now so who the hell really knows. I consider myself lucky, very lucky. It took a buddy of mine out like a TKO. Knocked his junk right in the dirt, and he is in incredible shape too.


Camp, Benny posted this in a TGR forum. It’s not been peer reviewed yet but it’s a study of live virus in a vehicle. To be fair it was an older Honda. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.12.21249603v1


----------



## wonderpony

I chose to stay home and do online yoga, rather than go to GP on a holiday weekend. Maybe tomorrow...


----------



## Ripitz

We had dinner at the Pine Hill Arms after skiing the Belle on Friday. It felt safe since the place was a virtual ghost town.


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

wonderpony said:


> I think of you, every day, Harvey. I think about the fact that it was a struggle to drink 4 liters of water a day. I think about my six crazy chickens, and who would take care of them, if I were laid up for a week. There are all these little things that we take for granted, but then what if you suddenly can't?


I adore chickens. Let me know if you ever need help.


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

Ripitz said:


> We had dinner at the Pine Hill Arms after skiing the Belle on Friday. It felt safe since the place was a virtual ghost town.


In fairness, Pine Hill always feels a bit like a ghost town.


----------



## Ripitz

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> I adore chickens. Let me know if you ever need help.


That’s what the fox and red tailed hawk has been saying about our flock


----------



## wonderpony

Ripitz said:


> That’s what the fox and red tailed hawk has been saying about our flock


Yeah. I woke up a couple of weeks ago at 5:30 to a crazy noise. It took me a bit to figure out it was the chickens. I went running outside in my bathrobe with a flashlight. A weasel had wandered underneath the coop. My son and I had secured the attached run after last spring's raccoon attack. The coop, however, was raised enough for the weasel to get in. I was outside, in the dark, in my bathrobe with a flashlight. Every time the weasel popped its head out, I yelled at it and banged on the fence with the flashlight. Eventually, I figured out that I had to kill it and found a metal fence post. It never got where I could whack it, though. At some point, I got annoyed and used the fence post to scrape around under the coop. Eventually, the weasel scampered off. I stopped at Agway on the way home from skiing and picked up a bunch of hardware cloth and closed off the underside of the coop. So far, so good. Maybe the sight of a crazy woman in a bathrobe, with a flashlight and a metal bar will stick in its brain. The only thing that would have made it better was pink bunny slippers. ?


----------



## Ripitz

He’ll be back. They’ve got nothing better to do.
A few years back we had a skunk kill all 48 of our broilers on pasture. Went under an electric fence and tunneled under the chicken tractor. When confronted it just hissed at me and went back to its frenzied work. Went back to the house to fetch my 410 which sent him to the great chicken house in the sky


----------



## wonderpony

What does one use to shoot a weasel?


----------



## Brownski

#6?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> A few years back we had a skunk kill all 48 of our broilers on pasture.



I bet you were pissed!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> #6?


LOL
I'm thinking whatever is laying around will work just fine


----------



## Tjf1967

wonderpony said:


> What does one use to shoot a weasel?


Something a little stronger than a flash light. I've been watching a lot of life below zero. Set up a snare for him where he got in. Then you can leave him there for all his friends to see in case they get any bright ideas.


----------



## tirolski

wonderpony said:


> What does one use to shoot a weasel?


Pony, Our old neighbors relatives were owners of Havahart traps.
Ya can catch ‘em if ya can.
Less blood than shootin and be careful as the little killing bandits could carry the vid.





						Baits for Weasels | Weasel Baits | Havahart®
					

Once you have decided upon live weasel trapping as a means of removing a weasel, you'll have to figure out which weasel bait works the best.  Check here for weasel baiting tips and tricks from the pros at Havahart.




					www.havahart.com
				



and https://www.nytimes.com/1979/03/25/...ss-is-sold-after-142-years-but-its-heart.html


----------



## Brownski

I just found out through the grapevine that the owner of one of my biggest customers (read somebody I am in contact with weekly) got the covid. She’s been home for a week already. So much for contact tracing


----------



## Campgottagopee

Crap
Hopefully you don't get it. Then again it's only a matter of time.


----------



## Ripitz

I too just found out my work partner was in contact with someone who tested positive... scary stuff


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> I just found out through the grapevine that the owner of one of my biggest customers (read somebody I am in contact with weekly) got the covid. She’s been home for a week already. So much for contact tracing


"Grapevines" have been around a lot longer than phones and/or computers.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I miss reading all the TR's

Just sayin


----------



## Ripitz

I used dirty tuna cans in the havaheart for weasels with no luck. There are very smart and avoid traps. They can go through holes the size of a quarter so it’s hard to keep things buttoned up. When I catch raccoons I take them on a ride across the Hudson where it’s a mile wide and say good luck you cute little bastard. A game camera may help to know your enemy. Ultimately I have found a Savage 22/410 over under is best for farm chores


----------



## wonderpony

Ripitz said:


> I used dirty tuna cans in the havaheart for weasels with no luck. There are very smart and avoid traps. They can go through holes the size of a quarter so it’s hard to keep things buttoned up. When I catch raccoons I take them on a ride across the Hudson where it’s a mile wide and say good luck you cute little bastard. A game camera may help to know your enemy. Ultimately I have found a Savage 22/410 over under is best for farm chores


I have a Ruger.  The hardware cloth has 1/2 inch holes and is stapled to the ground with six-inch long crampons. I also covered the windows in the coop with the hardware cloth. There are two openings that are about six feet above ground that I still need to cover.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> I used dirty tuna cans in the havaheart for weasels with no luck. There are very smart and avoid traps. They can go through holes the size of a quarter so it’s hard to keep things buttoned up. When I catch raccoons I take them on a ride across the Hudson where it’s a mile wide and say good luck you cute little bastard. A game camera may help to know your enemy. Ultimately I have found a Savage 22/410 over under is best for farm chores



You got a farm bro?


----------



## Ripitz

Just a small hobby farm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Just a small hobby farm


Awesome

I love that work

My first job I ever had was on a dairy farm filling grain shoots and doing hay


----------



## Ripitz

The new normal sure has changed a lot of things. Farming and gardening has given us a much needed reprieve


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> Farming and gardening has given us a much needed reprieve



pics or it didn’t happen


----------



## ScottySkis

Harvey said:


> I actually read that article and several others. Based on what I've read the odds of a second infection seem low for some period of time.
> 
> I'm not saying my fear, or the concerns of my family, are based in science. It's fear, by definition not always rational.
> 
> When I got out of quarantine I went on a mtb ride, and came to this one pinch point on my ride. My route goes over a dam, and there is no way to ditch into the woods or do any of the various tricks I've developed to avoid clueless, maskless, loud pedestrians. I came across the largest group I've ever seen on the dam - about 30. (Usually a large group might be 6.) It took several minutes for the group to dissipate. I'm tired of people looking at me funny when I'm not willing to weave through a gaunlet 18 inches wide that they graciously provide.
> 
> Yea I know it all sounds irrational. It's fear. If you go through it the way I did, and you have no fear, that's awesome. The first real snow in a while, on holiday weekend just didn't seem appealing to me. I'm thinking a weekday a Plattekill or some bc in the Siamese Wilderness might be my reentry.
> 
> Also I get tired, and feel that my usual driving insanity might best postponed for a while.
> 
> Skiing should be fun.


This from my friend on Facebook

"Yes! Owen tested positive in October and now again. "
Her young son got it twice


----------



## Harvey

Ugh.

My wife told me tonight she was worried about me. Not so much that I'll get covid again, but that I'll get punched in the nose by someone I asked to put on a mask.

Moving on, maybe it's the new snow or maybe time heals. I am heading north early Friday am, hoping to find some snow. Both afraid and excited.


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> pics or it didn’t happen


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I've read the odds of a second infection seem low for some period of time.


I've read first-hand reports of people testing positive for a few months after recovering from COVID-19. Meaning people who no longer have any symptoms but get tested for other reasons such as for work. It's also possible to have a second bout that involves symptoms that are different from the first infection. But that's relatively rare.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Ugh.
> 
> My wife told me tonight she was worried about me. Not so much that I'll get covid again, but that I'll get punched in the nose by someone I asked to put on a mask.


Good for you for doing that. I've had to do it a couple times here at work.


----------



## Peter Minde

Campgottagopee said:


> Good for you for doing that. I've had to do it a couple times here at work.


I had to ask a customer to put on a mask. He goes, what are you, brainwashed? This customer is always right thing is outta control.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Peter Minde said:


> I had to ask a customer to put on a mask. He goes, what are you, brainwashed? This customer is always right thing is outta control.



Isn't it crazy

I read a comment that I really liked, can't remember who said it, maybe Chris Rock??? Anyway, it was said that we should do away with mask requirements that way we can tell who the stupid F'rs are right away. LOL


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz, Nice! Neighbor put up some greenhouses recently and started up a roadside veggie selling stand too.


----------



## raisingarizona

The vid is everywhere round here.

I’m just doing my own thing and trying to keep contact with others down. My job makes that pretty easy.

we are finally getting cycled down here and this weekend is looking good. While I’m excited to ski some pow I have mixed feelings about dealing with the ski area on busy weekends.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Good for you for doing that. I've had to do it a couple times here at work.



Hahaha I think if I was you, my wife'd be WAY less scared, big guy.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> I've read first-hand reports of people testing positive for a few months after recovering from COVID-19... It's also possible to have a second bout that involves symptoms that are different from the first infection. But that's relatively rare.


The WHO just came out with some “news” telling folk ya can get false positives if ya run the PCR cycler too many cycles.


----------



## Harvey

We won't get fooled again.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Hahaha I think if I was you, my wife'd be WAY less scared, big guy.


 Lol 

Nah, I'm a lover, not a fighter.


----------



## Harvey

Even better.


----------



## lukoson

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/...ng-new-york.html?referringSource=articleShare


----------



## Ripitz

“We saw a lot of beer”?


----------



## marcski

lukoson said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/...ng-new-york.html?referringSource=articleShare


Nice Article.


----------



## tirolski

lukoson said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/...ng-new-york.html?referringSource=articleShare


..."country of Austria is any example. Even though its third national lockdown was recently extended to February, shuttering museums and many shops, its ski lifts remain open.” 
Gotta ❤️ Tiroleans.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> ..."country of Austria is any example. Even though its third national lockdown was recently extended to February, shuttering museums and many shops, its ski lifts remain open.”
> Gotta ❤️ Tiroleans.


Italy’s Alps remain closed to skiing except for locals. Lifts aren’t running. Skin it to win it only, except for racers. https://planetski.eu/2021/01/18/italys-ski-areas-remain-closed/


----------



## Brownski

My customer that tested positive is back in the store. She’s one of those people that you can’t tell how old she is. I’ve known her for 15 years and her appearance has hardly changed but she’s definitely in the danger zone. She said her only symptoms were fatigue. Still felt a little funny interacting. I kept my distance


----------



## wonderpony

Cuomo just said 6 - 9 months to get everyone vaccinated. That is kind of what I was thinking. It will be five months just to get through this current phase.


----------



## Ripitz

What’s going on with these variants? It seems like by the time we all get vaccinated there will be new and improved pathways to misery to contend with.


----------



## Tjf1967

If you go back to last March when they were throwing out timelines it seems they were spot on. I do believe we have seen the worst of it. I am very angry that people are getting shots because of Unions. Health Care workers should have gotten it then it all should have been age based.


----------



## MC2

Tjf1967 said:


> If you go back to last March when they were throwing out timelines it seems they were spot on. I do believe we have seen the worst of it. I am very angry that people are getting shots because of Unions. Health Care workers should have gotten it then it all should have been age based.


Do you mean healthcare workers in unions? What unions are getting them?


----------



## Tjf1967

MC2 said:


> Do you mean healthcare workers in unions? What unions are getting them?


Teachers... Prison guards.. every group pleading their case. It's bs. Old people are significantly more likely to die if they get it. Why aren't we taking care of them first


----------



## JTG

Teachers? Perhaps some, but not all. My wife’s a teachers, had an appointment, they cancelled and said nobody under 65. That said, teachers should be higher priority (after elderly, healthcare workers) than the general public.


----------



## Tjf1967

JTG said:


> Teachers? Perhaps some, but not all. My wife’s a teachers, had an appointment, they cancelled and said nobody under 65. That said, teachers should be higher priority (after elderly, healthcare workers) than the general public.


If course they should. One kid gets covid two building over and they go remote. Give me a break


----------



## Brownski

They should open it up to anybody over 65 that wants it. Then open it to everyone soon after that. I’m way more likely to get it and spread it then a teacher and I’ll be the last one eligible.


----------



## Tjf1967

It already is. The old people are getting bumped back by other groups that are eligible. They are better on computers. Its like getting a tee time at a municipal golf course on a Saturday morning.


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> What’s going on with these variants? It seems like by the time we all get vaccinated there will be new and improved pathways to misery to contend with.



I don't think this is known yet.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tjf1967 said:


> Old people are significantly more likely to die if they get it. Why aren't we taking care of them first


What’s the goal? Is it to keep old people alive or to stop the pandemic? Maybe the answer isn’t simple. 

mm


----------



## Tjf1967

It already is. The old people are getting bumped back by other groups that are eligible there are better on computers. Its li e getting a tee time at a municipal golf course in a Saturday morning.


Milo Maltbie said:


> What’s the goal? Is it to keep old people alive or to stop the pandemic? Maybe the answer isn’t simple.
> 
> mm


Both


----------



## Brownski

I guess catching up the production is the real answer. My understanding is the next version coming out is supposed to be single dose and be more easily transported so it will be able to be distributed to drug stores. That should help.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tjf1967 said:


> Both


Nope. You gotta pick one. This stuff is hard but you need to make choices. 

mm


----------



## Tjf1967

Milo Maltbie said:


> Nope. You gotta pick one. This stuff is hard but you need to make choices.
> 
> mm


Wrong


----------



## jasonwx

A very close friend of mine 
Who happens to be a doc
Was able to get his wife a shot. He said she worked at his office. She’s a accountant. I thought it was bad juju. 
but it’s a dog eat dog world people and we are wearing milkbone underwear.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tjf1967 said:


> Wrong


Have you been paying attention? Where is this unlimited supply of vaccine that allows us to avoid hard choices? What serious issue doesn’t require difficult decisions? 

mm


----------



## XTski

Tjf1967 said:


> If course they should. One kid gets covid two building over and they go remote. Give me a break


Massachusetts had teachers set up to be among 1st to get vaccinated but fortunately the reversed that decision, in Va they must do the same, the teachers refuse to go in person they shouldn’t get the vaccine


----------



## Milo Maltbie

jasonwx said:


> A very close friend of mine
> Who happens to be a doc
> Was able to get his wife a shot. He said she worked at his office. She’s a accountant. I thought it was bad juju.
> but it’s a dog eat dog world people and we are wearing milkbone underwear.


At the hospital where my gf works, vaccinations were given strictly on exposure risk. Doctors were sometimes behind housekeepers, and Some managers were completely out. That’s the right way. Sucks for me because I have to drive almost to Canada to get mine, but it’s still right. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

I got mine because I’m old, but if I’m being honest teachers and bartenders probably should be high on the list. It seems to me that young people spread it and their grandparents die from it, so apparently the decision is to save old people more than stop the pandemic. I hope that was the right decision, but...

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> A very close friend of mine
> Who happens to be a doc
> Was able to get his wife a shot. He said she worked at his office. She’s a accountant. I thought it was bad juju.
> but it’s a dog eat dog world people and we are wearing milkbone underwear.



This is true.
It's not what you know but who you know. My second covid test was a complete monkey F'n a football experience. My first test I drove right up (no appointment needed) and tested within 2 minutes. My second test took me 2 days to schedule and the only reason I got in was because of my wife. 

Seems like we (the media) concentrate on different numbers. We concentrate on the 95% effective rate of the vaccine, yet concentrate only on the 2% of death rate.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Teachers... Prison guards.. every group pleading their case. It's bs. Old people are significantly more likely to die if they get it. Why aren't we taking care of them first



Yep --- my parents are waiting too. I guess their in some virtual line somewhere that who knows pays attention to.


----------



## XTski

Campgottagopee said:


> Yep --- my parents are waiting too. I guess their in some virtual line somewhere that who knows pays attention to.


It’s the union’s that helps them get away with the bs , maybe their should be an old person union


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

XTski said:


> It’s the union’s that helps them get away with the bs , maybe their should be an old person union


Like the AARP?


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Seems like we (the media) concentrate on different numbers. We concentrate on the 95% effective rate of the vaccine, yet concentrate only on the 2% of death rate.


There are other serious long term side effects from Covid besides death. With the vaccine, who knows, it’s newer.


----------



## XTski

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> Like the AARP?


are they fighting to get the elderly the vaccine? Not familiar with them other then seeing the commercials,


----------



## XTski

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> Like the AARP?


No , I see that’s for people 50 and older, I am thinking of the elderly,


----------



## Brownski

My wife was able to navigate the system for her dad (old) and herself (job qualifies). They got their first shots a week ago. I did a little research and it seems I’m going to be eligible March 1 which is still before it goes to the wider public. If they’re still having these production problems at that time I’ll have to think about what the right thing to do is. I really believe that just rushing to get as many people inoculated as possible is the right thing. The scarcity of supply complicates things.


----------



## jasonwx

I feel confident that in the next month or so supplies will increase dramatically


----------



## Tjf1967

I tried navigating the system for my dad but went into it wrong. It really is like making tee times. I went in a different direction, my dad had his first shot last Saturday.


----------



## Tjf1967

jasonwx said:


> I feel confident that in the next month or so supplies will increase dramatically


Agree


----------



## wonderpony

I know a woman in my horse club, who may have just turned 70, with no health issues, who got her first shot. That annoys me. There are other people who need it more, IMO.


----------



## Ripitz

Tjf1967 said:


> The old people are getting bumped back by other groups that are eligible there are better on computers.


I’ve seen this first hand with my mother and mother-in-law. They think their doctor is just going to call them up on their land line when it’s their turn. Any other scenario seems dubious to them


----------



## DomB

TLDR: folks, please check hospital systems that are not NYS official sites. I have at least anecdotal evidence that that is a route to vaccine distribution:

Hey everyone - in addition to state sites (driving far) or job preference (union/hc worker), if folks are in the eligible NY list, you should check what hospital systems are doing. This is a third source of vaccine, which while subject to eligibility rules, gets allocated vaccine and is not a NYS executed sight. 

My parents have passed, but after we convinced my inlaws to get the vaccine, they were able to get the first shot quickly without us having any 'ins' by going through Columbia Presbyterian, which releases slots daily. 

The 'in' my inlaws had was the resource of my wife putting in time to figure out the best option. Which I freely admit is a valuable resource. My now deceased first generation grandparents would not have had that in the form of my parents, who didn't know how to research, etc., and certainly didn't have the free time to do so. 

I was pushing my wife to just get them an appointment in the North Country (maybe 6 hours away), but she found this resource, which was quicker. 

Good luck to everyone.


----------



## Harvey

Am I crazy to hang back?

I figure I'll do my best to stay out of the way, not get sick and get mine when there are a lot available. I think in the next two months, cases will get better, many will get vaccinated, and there will be more supply.

I also want to make sure my second dose comes at the designed time of 21 or 28 days.

Nuts?


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'm doing the same, Harv. I'll get it when I can.


----------



## wonderpony

I think that there are people who should get the vaccine before me. I can lay low and wait.


----------



## Campgottagopee

NY AG report finds nursing home deaths vastly undercounted


(WHAM) - A report released Thursday by the New York Attorney General's Office finds nursing homes may have undercounted the number of deaths by as much as 50 percent. The 76-page report is the culmination of several months of investigating the response of nursing homes in New York state, both...




cnycentral.com


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Am I crazy to hang back?
> I figure I'll do my best to stay out of the way, not get sick and get mine when there are a lot available. I think in the next two months, cases will get better, many will get vaccinated, and there will be more supply.
> Nuts?



Thinkin of who gets vaxed first, wise words of Soggy Sweat come to mind.
Consideration of deference, altruistically, to: 
(if they want vaccinated under Emergency Use Authorization)
Front line workers and folks in nursing homes...
High risk ethnic groups...
Descriminated LBGTQ+ folks...
Other women not included above...
Due to limited supply these folks can have at it first.
“This is my stand. I will not retreat from it. I will not compromise.” Judge Sweat.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> NY AG report finds nursing home deaths vastly undercounted
> 
> 
> (WHAM) - A report released Thursday by the New York Attorney General's Office finds nursing homes may have undercounted the number of deaths by as much as 50 percent. The 76-page report is the culmination of several months of investigating the response of nursing homes in New York state, both...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnycentral.com



Anybody who has really looked at the numbers and is being honest knows the numbers are undercounted. The death rate in the US is remarkably stable year to year. While covid deaths are 400,000 or whatever the total death rate is even higher than when you compare 2020 to 2019. I'm not sure by how much, but I know it's not a trivial amount.


----------



## DomB

I don't know if I am in a position to criticize anyone who is eligible and is waiting. 

You could make a pretty good argument that if you are eligible it makes sense to get vaccinated. I don't know enough to know whether someone is 'taking' a vaccine that someone else needs if they are following the guidelines/requirements. 

And every situation is different. At least some folks here have some kind of immunity (likely though we don't know how long. 

If I were a policy maker, I am not sure I would have set the priorities precisely how they are, but from a societal perspective, since we have this priority handed to us, if I were within the priority I would get vaccinated as soon as I could following the rules. 

More people vaccinated means less time to heard immunity. As others have said, there is no easy way to deal with choosing priorities, but we have them set for us by the state.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Anybody who has really looked at the numbers and is being honest knows the numbers are undercounted... I'm not sure by how much, but I know it's not a trivial amount.


Also from the article dealing with $ numbers.
"_One of the more complex findings of the report is the way the state currently reimburses for-profit nursing homes, which the report says gives them a financial incentive to transfer money to related parties instead of using the money to buy more PPE and add staff_."

How dare they?


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> While covid deaths are 400,000 or whatever the total death rate is even higher than when you compare 2020 to 2019. I'm not sure by how much, but I know it's not a trivial amount.


I’ve heard people use the excess deaths number to argue that covid is really killing more people then is being reported but I’ve also heard that some regions are reporting anybody that dies “with” covid as dying “of” covid which would imply that the covid death numbers are actually inflated. I think we should also be careful not to ascribe deaths that are caused by the lockdowns to covid. Increased suicides and overdoses, people that die from heart disease or cancer because they were afraid to go to the hospital or maybe a drug trial was delayed that might have helped them. I don’t consider shutdown deaths to be covid deaths. That’s something else.


----------



## Harvey

I'm saying that the total number of deaths this year vs 19, is up more than the number of covid deaths. I believe that to be true, if wrong, I'll desist. How to describe what that is, is up to the individual I guess.

Personally if it's 400k or 500k it doesn't change any of my basic assumptions about covid.


----------



## Brownski

I understood what you were saying. It doesn’t affect what I do to protect myself but it is important to know the truth about what worked and what didn’t going forward and it’s important to understand how many people got hurt as unintended victims of bad decisions. The nursing home deaths is a good example. Plenty of people objected to that as it was happening but were ignored so it is important to understand what the thinking was behind that and to understand if that decision caused unnecessary deaths and how many.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Anybody who has really looked at the numbers and is being honest knows the numbers are undercounted. The death rate in the US is remarkably stable year to year. While covid deaths are 400,000 or whatever the total death rate is even higher than when you compare 2020 to 2019. I'm not sure by how much, but I know it's not a trivial amount.


Looking at deaths in the U.S. over the last five years. There are graphs by state of weekly deaths for 2020 from mid-March thru Dec. Can find similar graphs for other countries.









574,000 More U.S. Deaths Than Normal Since Covid-19 Struck (Published 2021)


Since the coronavirus pandemic began sweeping across the country last year, deaths have been 21 percent above normal. See the breakdown by state.



www.nytimes.com


----------



## Harvey

So it's only an additional 24k?

I admit it's less than I thought.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> So it's only an additional 24k?
> 
> I admit it's less than I thought.


?? Article I posted said 424K more than the usual, based on data from the last five years. The graph is showing the Percent over/under with the range going from 10-40% starting around March 2020.


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> I’ve also heard that some regions are reporting anybody that dies “with” covid as dying “of” covid which would imply that the covid death numbers are actually inflated..


Be careful where you get your information.









Fact check: How are COVID-19 deaths counted, do hospitals get money for COVID-19 deaths?


(WLUK) -- Since the pandemic started, FOX 11 has received questions from viewers asking if hospitals are being paid for every COVID-19 death, and questions about how COVID deaths are counted. How COVID-19 deaths are counted. Determining the cause of death is up to a coroner, medical examiner or...




fox11online.com


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> ?? Article I posted said 424K more than the usual, based on data from the last five years. The graph is showing the Percent over/under with the range going from 10-40% starting around March 2020.


So it's double? That seems high. OK I will actually read the article.


----------



## tirolski

There’s more to covid effects than counting dead folks. Ask the many long haulers, and it hasn’t been that long yet.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> There’s more to covid effects than counting dead folks. Ask the many long haulers, and it hasn’t been that long yet.


Yep, there is still much to be learned about COVID-19. Not really any good estimate of the true fatality rate, much less a break down by age and medical history. The impact for serious and long term symptoms varies a great deal.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Looking at deaths in the U.S. over the last five years. There are graphs by state of weekly deaths for 2020 from mid-March thru Dec. Can find similar graphs for other countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 574,000 More U.S. Deaths Than Normal Since Covid-19 Struck (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Since the coronavirus pandemic began sweeping across the country last year, deaths have been 21 percent above normal. See the breakdown by state.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 7735


I think I read that right. Official covid count 425,000, actual rise in total death 446,000?


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

Harvey said:


> I think I read that right. Official covid count 425,000, actual rise in total death 446,000?


That seems bad. 

Think about how many car accidents didn't happen because nobody was driving, how many fewer people didn't catch the flu because their kid's school was closed, how many people failed to fall headfirst into a manhole because they were locked down at home, etc.


----------



## raisingarizona

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> That seems bad.
> 
> Think about how many car accidents didn't happen because nobody was driving, how many fewer people didn't catch the flu because their kid's school was closed, how many people failed to fall headfirst into a manhole because they were locked down at home, etc.


Good point.

but, what would the covid death numbers be without any intervention?


----------



## Brownski

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> That seems bad.
> 
> Think about how many car accidents didn't happen because nobody was driving, how many fewer people didn't catch the flu because their kid's school was closed, how many people failed to fall headfirst into a manhole because they were locked down at home, etc.


That’s what I’m interested in seeing; what’s up, what’s down, which approach ultimately worked better when it’s all said and done. Real data is hard to find.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> Real data is hard to find.


Hmmm, wonder why? I thought they said this was the Information Age.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Both my parents are scheduled to get their first vaccinations early next week.


----------



## Brownski

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> Think about how many car accidents didn't happen because nobody was driving, how many fewer people didn't catch the flu because their kid's school was closed, how many people failed to fall headfirst into a manhole because they were locked down at home, etc.


I found this. I’m kind of surprised the numbers per mile driven got worse even though the overall numbers improved.








						Report: 2020 Roadway Deaths are Way Higher Than Normal
					

Car drivers are killing people — pedestrians, cyclists, their own passengers, themselves — at a much higher rate this year compared to last, even though total travel is down dramatically because of…




					usa.streetsblog.org


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> I found this. I’m kind of surprised the numbers per mile driven got worse even though the overall numbers improved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report: 2020 Roadway Deaths are Way Higher Than Normal
> 
> 
> Car drivers are killing people — pedestrians, cyclists, their own passengers, themselves — at a much higher rate this year compared to last, even though total travel is down dramatically because of…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> usa.streetsblog.org


Brown- I am not surprised at all. I was taking a lot of time in Spring of 20 because my dad was in hospice. This was full on stay at home (hospice was exempt and followed the rules, because I am a rule follower). There would be almost no one on major arteries on LONG ISLAND, which almost always seems to have traffic. Yet, people would pass me doing 90 mph more than once on each 30 minute drive. I don't know how to explain it but I kind of felt their anger in their driving. 

Apparently my experience was not unique. I have seen numerous stories/articles about police asking people to tone it down on their driving when downstate NY was at the high point of the first 'pause'/lockdown. 

I have no data to support it, but I would guess that time of driving per a mile was much more dangerous.


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> Yet, people would pass me doing 90


The cross country cannonball record has been broken multiple times during the pandemic. A brazen one was completed in the beginning during the lockdown. The fastest known time is now 25hours 39 minutes... talk about reckless


----------



## Harvey

That's so funny, I went totally the other way.

With no one on the road, I started hyper-miling on the drive to work.

It became a game. In my CRV I could get 40mpg on the 8 mile drive from work to home.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> I found this. I’m kind of surprised the numbers per mile driven got worse even though the overall numbers improved.


In North Carolina, the number of accidents was down for 2020 but the incidence of fatalities was up. Not much of a surprise to me. My observation was that there was a far higher percentage of people going well over 80 mph in places with speed limits of 60 or 65, or over 90 mph when the speed limit was 70. Same speed differential on 2-lane highways. I typically drive 5-10 mph over speed limits on major highways. Traffic was lighter July-Sept but picked up starting in October. With my daughter in college in Asheville, I was on I-40 between Raleigh and Asheville several times. Saw similar situations on I-40 and the other major highways in the Triangle (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill).

As an aside, NC accident stats and info are some of the best in the country. I know because I worked at the UNC Highway Safety Research Center while I was in college and grad school. Accident report forms evolved in the 1970s to help provide more comprehensive data for accidents on all roads including minor roads in the middle of nowhere. Helped that NC has more state-maintained road than most other states, as opposed to leaving it up to local jurisdictions. We could even do research on how many accidents were caused by flying insects or fiddling with the radio back when a text search required running a special computer program overnight on a mainframe.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Crap









'Get used to the idea' that COVID isn't going away completely, says doctor


WASHINGTON (SBG) - “I don’t think we’re going to ever eradicate this virus,” said Dr. Jeffrey Singer of the CATO Institute to The National Desk’s Jan Jeffcoat Friday morning. “We’ve only eradicated one virus against humans in history, and that's smallpox, and that took 200 years. ” Dr. Singer...




cnycentral.com


----------



## Harvey

I saw that, but I'm choosing to ignore it.


----------



## Brownski

That is just an alarming headline. Did anybody think Covid would be stamped out 100%? I didn’t. There’s a lot to be encouraged by in there too
“Getting reinfected with a new variant seems to be a much milder version of the infection,” said Dr. Singer. “There are at least 27 million people who've been infected in this country with confirmed cases, and the CDC tells us that actually maybe four to five times that amount, and then we already have 27 million people who've gotten at least one dose of the vaccine We might be up to 40% of the population that already has some degree of immunity.”


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> That is just an alarming headline. Did anybody think Covid would be stamped out 100%? I didn’t. There’s a lot to be encouraged by in there too
> “Getting reinfected with a new variant seems to be a much milder version of the infection,” said Dr. Singer. “There are at least 27 million people who've been infected in this country with confirmed cases, and the CDC tells us that actually maybe four to five times that amount, and then we already have 27 million people who've gotten at least one dose of the vaccine We might be up to 40% of the population that already has some degree of immunity.”


Something is bringing down our cases and somehow I don't think it's our awesome social distancing game.


----------



## JTG

Brownski said:


> That is just an alarming headline.


Yes, the author is trying to be alarmist, but the idea, no the fact, that COVID isn’t ever going away isn’t alarming at all. While I may not agree with my nurse brother that COVID is just a bad flu, it has been apparently from day one that in the future we will always have the cold, flu, and COVID season....as opposed to just the cold and flu season we used to have.


----------



## tirolski

JTG said:


> ... the fact, that COVID isn’t ever going away isn’t alarming at all... it has been apparently from day one that in the future we will always have the cold, flu, and COVID season...


Yup. Best to find therapies and/or vaccines ASAP and continue to study SARS-CoV2. I for sure don’t mean dragging bats from caves to labs and doing Gain of Function studies on the viruses.


----------



## Campgottagopee

This is a good sign. Right?









Great Escape announces reopening plan following Cuomo announcement to open theme parks


Following a recent announcement by Gov. Cuomo to allow outdoor venues to reopen, the Great Escape has announced a reopening plan. Six Flags Great Escape will be open weekends and select dates beginning May 1, and weekday operation starting June 24th. The indoor waterpark, according to the park...




cnycentral.com


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Something is bringing down our cases and somehow I don't think it's our awesome social distancing game.


Ever look at the graphs for other pandemics? Or a deadly local epidemic? Human nature hasn't changed much in the past 200+ years. When things get really bad, more people start changing their behavior to avoid getting sick. Those who are most at risk get sick and die sooner. The survivors figure out how to stay healthy and a population moves towards "herd immunity." These days that includes vaccination.

A lot of factors related to the spread of COVID-19 and SARS-CoV-2 just happened a lot faster in 2020 than a hundred years ago. For instance, by the time the Spanish flu made it to Australia during the 1918-20 pandemic, doctors and nurses working in hospitals already knew that it was important to keep symptomatic patients isolated from other patients. People weren't flying all over the world back then.

From an R&D standpoint, the speed at which multiple types of vaccines were developed since early 2020 is truly amazing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Our local hospital lost one of it's doctors yesterday due to Covid. He got Covid while treating a patient of his. According to my wife he was a great man and in his career saved many lives.


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> Our local hospital lost one of it's doctors yesterday due to Covid. He got Covid while treating a patient of his. According to my wife he was a great man and in his career saved many lives.


So sad indeed . JB lost 3 colleagues in his hospital , one a world class surgeon who had separated con joined twins . These health care heroes and your wife is one Camp are THE BEST of what we have to offer in America .They put it on the line everyday now for over a year in conditions that would psycholgically break most people . God bless them all! ????


----------



## ScottySkis

Governor finally letting my favorite deli in Middletown more hours unfortunately it to late for so many other business es"
"""???NEW HOURS ??? Happy to say that were back from 6am-8pm ONLY Thursday’s- Saturday’s !!! Thank you all for your support ??!""


----------



## Campgottagopee

I saw on the morning news that TX is opening up all business's with zero restrictions. I'll be interested to see what their numbers do. If they stay relatively level, or even continue to decrease, maybe it's time for NYS to end this 3mo pause?


----------



## Harvey

Cases in the whole country have stopped declining, we are flat or maybe a little up. This is true for Texas too.

IMO both the businesses reopening and the mask thing are big factors, but the business are so much more important, livelihood vs inconvenience (masks). I think if you are going to be bold you reopen business and leave masks in place for now. See how it goes.


----------



## Tjf1967

My governor could tell me anything he want's. I am still going to do what I feel is right. These sheep people drive me nuts. I wonder what the MLB is going to do. NY they can have like 12 people in Yankee stadium and down in Texas they will be allowed 70k. 12 or 70k does not matter to me I am not going!!


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> I saw on the morning news that TX is opening up all business's with zero restrictions. I'll be interested to see what their numbers do. If they stay relatively level, or even continue to decrease, maybe it's time for NYS to end this 3mo pause?


According to most of the medical community, this is a mistake. They are only a little over 7% vaccinated. That % will go up substantially in the next 6-8 weeks. They cannot wait another 8 weeks? Forget about the wall with Mexico, we need a wall around Texas.


----------



## Brownski

Yeah, I would bet most people in Texas keep wearing masks while socializing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

My line of thinking is very similar to both Harv and TJ's. I think it's time to start opening things up, I mean it has to start sometime or people will go under. Anyway, leave it up to the business and it's patrons to do what they feel is best for them. If I don't feel comfortable somewhere I will simply leave and not go back until whatever it was that bothered me is taken care of. It's time to let the people decide what they feel comfortable doing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> we need a wall around Texas



LOL --- that was good.



x10003q said:


> According to most of the medical community, this is a mistake. They are only a little over 7% vaccinated. That % will go up substantially in the next 6-8 weeks.



I don't disagree with you, but I do understand that at some point shit needs to get open. Too soon? Maybe.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Yeah, I would bet most people in Texas keep wearing masks while socializing



Some will. Most? That place is pretty wild.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I was in our little local store this AM getting coffee and this Amish dude walks in (stanky bastard too), with no mask. I gave him the stank eye and told him I hoped our store wouldn't have to close due to him being an ignorant stump. He gave me that stank eye back. Hopefully he didn't curse me somehow --- lol


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> LOL --- that was good.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree with you, but I do understand that at some point shit needs to get open. Too soon? Maybe.


How about open certain areas but lets keep the masks for another 8 weeks? Why both? It is just not that hard to wear a mask, unless you live in Texas. Thankfully, nobody told them boiling water was a hoax during the blackouts.


----------



## wonderpony

I was at the feed store on Saturday. Some yahoo walked in without his mask and was chatting with the owners, who were masked. What happens to store owners who need the business, but patrons don't wear their masks? I then saw the same guy at the grocery store, with a mask. Maybe he was vaccinated...


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> LOL --- that was good.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree with you, but I do understand that at some point shit needs to get open. Too soon? Maybe.


Texas has 13.4 % of their population vaccinated. I don't know the percentage that actually had it. We are getting close IMO but it will be another month. I a still holding onto hope to get on a lift this year.


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> Yeah, I would bet most people in Texas keep wearing masks while socializing.


Probably not, but they will mock those that do wear a mask.


----------



## x10003q

Tjf1967 said:


> Texas has 13.4 % of their population vaccinated. I don't know the percentage that actually had it. We are getting close IMO but it will be another month. I a still holding onto hope to get on a lift this year.


around 7% according to multiple sites








						As Gov. Abbott prepares to reopen Texas, state ranks 48th in COVID vaccination rate
					

On Tuesday, Gov. Greg Abbott announced that Texas would be lifting all COVID-19 restrictions currently in place, including the statewide mask mandate, next week.




					cbsaustin.com
				












						A look at Texas's COVID numbers and how they’ve changed over the past few months
					

Gov. Greg Abbott thinks now is the right time to end some statewide COVID-19 restrictions.




					www.khou.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Why both?


Because it's Texas. I lived there for a year which was long enough to realize they do stuff in a different way.


----------



## Tjf1967

x10003q said:


> around 7% according to multiple sites
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Gov. Abbott prepares to reopen Texas, state ranks 48th in COVID vaccination rate
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, Gov. Greg Abbott announced that Texas would be lifting all COVID-19 restrictions currently in place, including the statewide mask mandate, next week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cbsaustin.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A look at Texas's COVID numbers and how they’ve changed over the past few months
> 
> 
> Gov. Greg Abbott thinks now is the right time to end some statewide COVID-19 restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.khou.com


I get my number off the WSJ map. 













Covid-19 Live Updates: New U.S. Cases Ease, but Deaths Tick Higher - WSJ.com


Newly reported Covid-19 cases in the U.S. were down from a day earlier, but deaths continued their upward trend.




www.wsj.com


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Because it's Texas. I lived there for a year which was long enough to realize they do stuff in a different way.


My wife's family all moved to Houston about 30 years ago. I am very familiar with Texas from years of visiting. She is the black sheep East Coaster.


----------



## x10003q

Tjf1967 said:


> I get my number off the WSJ map. View attachment 8459View attachment 8459
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 Live Updates: New U.S. Cases Ease, but Deaths Tick Higher - WSJ.com
> 
> 
> Newly reported Covid-19 cases in the U.S. were down from a day earlier, but deaths continued their upward trend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com


I see that. NJ WSJ% matches other sources, but Texas does not. Crazy. Every other Texas # I see is around 7%.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> My wife's family all moved to Houston about 30 years ago. I am very familiar with Texas from years of visiting. She is the black sheep East Coaster.



There you go
You know exactly what I mean


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> My wife's family all moved to Houston about 30 years ago



Have you asked them how they feel about it? 

I know I'll be elated when restrictions are lifted for us here in NY. It bugs me that we the people can't make our own decisions.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> There you go
> You know exactly what I mean


You got that right.


----------



## Tjf1967

x10003q said:


> I see that. NJ WSJ% matches other sources, but Texas does not. Crazy. Every other Texas # I see is around 7%.


I saw Austin in one of your links and my cynical side came out. Whatever the percentage is I think we can all agree to tell people to stop wearing masks is just makes no sense. Just let business open if that is your position and keep your mouth shut.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Have you asked them how they feel about it?
> 
> I know I'll be elated when restrictions are lifted for us here in NY. It bugs me that we the people can't make our own decisions.


Not yet. 
The problem with taking masks off is, for many people, they do not even know they have it.


----------



## MarzNC

Not just Texas. A few other states have also lifted mask mandates. Pretty much the places that didn't have a state-wide mask mandate until relatively late in 2020.

NM and PA have dropped travel restrictions. Waiting to see how long it takes that to happen in the northeast.

I'm happy to be in NC. Gov. Cooper is keeping the mask mandate while increasing the capacity limits without jumping to being completely open. Also eliminated the overnight curfew that was in place when the numbers got bad in Nov-Dec.


----------



## MarzNC

Any sense of what percentage of people in NY have no interest in getting vaccinated for COVID-19? From what I'm seeing based on assorted polls, the national average is a bit lower than then percentage of people who don't bother with annual flu shots.

Are places in upstate NY getting J&J shipments this week?


----------



## Harvey

Tjf1967 said:


> I get my number off the WSJ map. View attachment 8459View attachment 8459
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 Live Updates: New U.S. Cases Ease, but Deaths Tick Higher - WSJ.com
> 
> 
> Newly reported Covid-19 cases in the U.S. were down from a day earlier, but deaths continued their upward trend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com


I think the 7% number is a two does number and 13% one dose?


----------



## MarzNC

@Harvey : an article about vaccine efficacy

Phase 3 vaccine trials involve tens of thousands of subjects. J&J included 45,000 people in their trials. Considering confidence intervals along with the point estimate gives a better idea of what clinical trial data show.

March 3, NY Times
What Do Vaccine Efficacy Numbers Actually Mean?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/03/03/science/vaccine-efficacy-coronavirus.html
_" . . .
What’s clear is that all three vaccines authorized in the United States — made by Johnson & Johnson, Moderna, and Pfizer and BioNTech — greatly reduce the risk of getting Covid-19.

What’s more, all the vaccines look as if they have a high efficacy against more serious outcomes like hospitalization and death. For example, no one who got Johnson & Johnson’s vaccine had to go to the hospital for a Covid-19 infection 28 days or more after getting an injection. Sixteen people who got the placebo did. That translates to 100 percent efficacy, with a confidence interval of 74.3 percent to 100 percent.
. . ."



_


----------



## Warp daddy

This anecdotally From a Nurse practitioner friend in Houston area : Actually deaths per capita in Texas are among the worst in the states and they are near the bottom in vaccinations . Several hospitals and now even major businesses are REJECTING the Governor's plan as lunacy !

It is a massive political DEFLECTION strategy to ameliorate the EPIC SYSTEMIC FAILURE of the state ERCOT strategy during the past several weeks. Abbot is being used as a pawn in this , he is not the sharpest knife in the set.


----------



## wonderpony

Warp daddy said:


> This anecdotally From a Nurse practitioner friend in Houston area : Actually deaths per capita in Texas are among the worst in the states and they are near the bottom in vaccinations . Several hospitals and now even major businesses are REJECTING the Governor's plan as lunacy !
> 
> It is a massive political DEFLECTION strategy to ameliorate the EPIC SYSTEMIC FAILURE of the state ERCOT strategy during the past several weeks. Abbot is being used as a pawn in this , he is not the sharpest knife in the set.


I don't know if Texas is a place I would be visiting any time soon. They have a fair number of counties on the NYT hotspots list. Plus, there is the heat, which I am not a fan of.


----------



## Warp daddy

More Grist : ERCOT just filed for bankruptcy ! See what I mean about DEFLECTION , the Gov and his cronies are looking like fools. Everything in TEX ASS is bigger , even the incompetency !?


----------



## Brownski

Not for nothing but the only state that did a worse job then NY of handling Covid is dirty jersey. I wouldn’t be throwing rocks....




__





States ranked by COVID-19 death rates


As of October 29, more than 743,000 people in the U.S. had died after contracting COVID-19, according to The New York Times.




www.beckershospitalreview.com


----------



## Tjf1967

Warp daddy said:


> This anecdotally From a Nurse practitioner friend in Houston area : Actually deaths per capita in Texas are among the worst in the states and they are near the bottom in vaccinations . Several hospitals and now even major businesses are REJECTING the Governor's plan as lunacy !
> 
> It is a massive political DEFLECTION strategy to ameliorate the EPIC SYSTEMIC FAILURE of the state ERCOT strategy during the past several weeks. Abbot is being used as a pawn in this , he is not the sharpest knife in the set.


Is NY doing any better. Stats don't seem to indicate we are. I don't agree with the stooge in texas. Just saying


----------



## Harvey

Don't usually lift copy from NYT, but this is public health, so I am hoping it is ok:

_Many Americans are worried that Johnson & Johnson’s Covid-19 vaccine is an inferior product that may not be worth getting. Gov. Doug Burgum of North Dakota recently told The Washington Post that he was now seeing not only “vaccine hesitancy” but also “the potential for brand hesitancy.”

The perception stems from the headline rates of effectiveness of the three vaccines: 72 percent for Johnson & Johnson, compared with 94 percent for Moderna and 95 percent for Pfizer. But those headline rates can be misleading in a few ways.

*The most important measure — whether the vaccine prevents serious illness — shows the Johnson & Johnson vaccine to be equally effective as the other two. All work for nearly 100 percent of people. The picture is murkier for mild cases, but they are not particularly worrisome.*

Today, I want to unpack the statistics about the three vaccines and explain why the current perception is a problem.

I’ll start with an anecdote that this newsletter has included once before: Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious-disease expert at Vanderbilt University, was recently talking with some colleagues about what they would tell a family member who could choose between getting the Johnson & Johnson tomorrow and one of the other vaccines in three weeks.

“All of us said, ‘Get the one tomorrow,’” as Schaffner recounted to my colleague Denise Grady. “The virus is bad.”

Mild Covid means victory

The headline effectiveness numbers — like 72 percent — describe a vaccine’s ability to prevent all infections from this coronavirus, known as SARS-Cov-2. But preventing all infections is less important than it may sound. The world is not going to eliminate SARS-Cov-2 anytime soon. Coronaviruses circulate all the time, causing the common cold and other manageable illnesses.

The trouble with this virus is its lethality. It has killed 15 times as many Americans as an average flu season. Turning Covid into something more like a mild flu or common cold means victory over the pandemic.

All three vaccines being used in the U.S. are accomplishing that goal. *In the research trials, none of the people who received a vaccine died of Covid. And after the vaccines had taken full effect, none were hospitalized, either.*

In the real world, the vaccines won’t achieve quite as stellar outcomes. Still, the results are excellent — and equally excellent across the three, as Dr. Cody Meissner of the Tufts School of Medicine said during a recent F.D.A. meeting.

Like running into the wind

But why doesn’t Johnson & Johnson appear to be as good at preventing mild illness?

There are a few possible answers. For one, *Johnson & Johnson’s research trials seem to have had a greater degree of difficulty.* They occurred later than Moderna’s or Pfizer’s — after one of the virus variants had spread more widely. The variant appears to cause a greater number of mild Covid cases among vaccinated people than the original virus.

Second, Johnson & Johnson is currently only one shot, while Moderna and Pfizer are two shots. That happened mostly because of how strong the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is. Initial testing showed it to deliver impressive levels of immunity after only one shot, while the others required a booster, as Dr. Robert Wachter, chair of the department of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco, explained to me.

The truth is that all of the vaccines seem to provide significant protection after a single shot. (Look at Britain, which is not rushing to give second shots and where cases and deaths continue to plummet.) Similarly, all three vaccines may benefit from a second shot.

I recognize that may make some people anxious about getting the single Johnson & Johnson shot, but it shouldn’t. If further data suggest that a second Johnson & Johnson shot would help, regulators can change their recommendation. Regardless, follow-up Covid shots may be normal in the future.

What’s the bottom line? A single Johnson & Johnson shot may indeed allow a somewhat larger number of mild Covid cases than two shots of Moderna or Pfizer. It’s hard to be sure. And it isn’t very important.

*“The number that we should all truly care about is what are the chances I’m going to get this thing and get really sick or die,” Wachter said. After any of the three vaccines, he added, “There’s essentially no chance you will die of Covid, which is breathtaking.”*_


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> “The number that we should all truly care about is what are the chances I’m going to get this thing and get really sick or die,” Wachter said. After any of the three vaccines, he added, “There’s essentially no chance you will die of Covid, which is breathtaking.”



Concur

I'll go to Texas for a visit, heck I'm going as soon as the open the SXSW music fest again. 

I'm def going to FL this fall too

It's time to move forward


----------



## Brownski

We kind of suck at administering vaccines too... 40th out of 50 states




__





States ranked by percentage of COVID-19 vaccines administered: Nov. 30


Wisconsin has administered the highest percentage of COVID-19 vaccines it has received, according to the CDC's COVID-19 vaccine distribution and administration data tracker.




www.beckershospitalreview.com


----------



## MarzNC

Just learned that overnight summer camps will be allowed to operate in NY. That's a very good sign that the coming summer will be nothing like Summer 2020.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> We kind of suck at administering vaccines too... 40th out of 50 states


I'm guessing, but I have a feeling that since most vaccination reports are being based on CDC data, there may be a difference in the timeliness of reporting among states.


----------



## Harvey

Interesting.

I read that the flu was only 1% of a normal year because of masks social distancing etc





__





Covid-19 Story Tip: Flu Cases Dramatically Low So Far This Season






www.hopkinsmedicine.org


----------



## Brownski

MarzNC said:


> I'm guessing, but I have a feeling that since most vaccination reports are being based on CDC data, there may be a difference in the timeliness of reporting among states.


So we rank 40th in filing our paperwork?


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> So we rank 40th in filing our paperwork?


Maybe, maybe not.

The overall figure in this article for NY is 16.1%. The map in the NY Times based on CDC data says 15.7%. The differences between states isn't that much on a percentage basis. The difference in actual numbers are obviously more significant between states like NY, CA vs WY, ND, or RI. With the mass vaccination sites ramping up in NYC, numbers and overall percentage for NY is going to go up pretty fast in the next week or two. Trends are more important than a point in time.









						Cuomo Kills Domestic Travel Rules for Fully Vaccinated People, Sets More Key Reopening Dates
					

Gov. Andrew Cuomo reestablished his COVID briefing routine Wednesday after a nearly two-week hiatus from on-camera newsers with Q&As. It came a day after state legislators reached a deal to strip him of pandemic emergency powers. Cuomo acknowledged that deal but didn’t immediately address the...




					www.nbcnewyork.com


----------



## Brownski

Sure


----------



## Campgottagopee

CT lifting all restrictions on biz and keeping masks.
This makes sense to me.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'm seeing where many covid shot appointments are being missed and or cancelled. It's all over the news. I'm thinking if it was easier to get the damn thing this wouldn't be the case. I had to drive 45 minutes to get mine and was more than happy to do so. Not everyone will/can do that. It's time to get this thing so you can get it local, without having to fill out a bunch of BS paperwork on a stupid computer that nobody even cares about, or looks at, when you show up.
Rant over ✌️


----------



## Brownski

I’m with you. Drop the screening and just get on with it


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I’m with you. Drop the screening and just get on with it


Exactly. I have breakfast at a local diner every Friday. I know most of the old timers that are there. I asked one of them if he had gotten his shot yet, he's 88. He said no because his doctor wasn't doing them yet. This guy is not driving to Cuse to get it, not does he have a computer to sign up online to get one.
Kinda sad.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Exactly. I have breakfast at a local diner every Friday. I know most of the old timers that are there. I asked one of them if he had gotten his shot yet, he's 88. He said no because his doctor wasn't doing them yet. This guy is not driving to Cuse to get it, not does he have a computer to sign up online to get one.
> Kinda sad.


At least he's getting it.

I didn't get mine yet either.


----------



## G.ski

I just became eligible.

But I'll wait until May to get stabbed. Not going to go through the BS required right now to get an appointment. I just don't have the patience for that. I always laugh at the American tendency to lie about being eligible, or pay someone to cut a line.

Bottom line there are many others who need this more than me right now. Have at it!


----------



## ScottySkis

I get it get mine a week from today
My program for Mental illness and substance (mostly pot) theapartment set up for everyone who wants it in our program


----------



## wonderpony

G.ski said:


> I just became eligible.
> 
> But I'll wait until May to get stabbed. Not going to go through the BS required right now to get an appointment. I just don't have the patience for that. I always laugh at the American tendency to lie about being eligible, or pay someone to cut a line.
> 
> Bottom line there are many others who need this more than me right now. Have at it!


Exactly. My son has been on site in construction since this started. He was in NJ from April until last January. He is now on site in Rochester. At least he doesn't have the drive.

My farrier has been working through the pandemic, sometimes with his small child accompanying him. 

I think they are way more up the food chain than me. I can wait.


----------



## Sick Bird Rider

The same vaccine gong show is in effect up here in the Hinterlands. My boss, the potential superspreader, logged on to some portal I didn't even know existed, got a last minute appointment yesterday and drove two hours to get vaccinated. Meanwhile, another colleague's wife, a nurse, hasn't got a shot yet through normal channels. Strangely enough, I got a call out of the blue today from my new family doctor at 4 pm (old one quit due to sexual misconduct allegations, who know?) offering me an appointment at 5:40 today because someone cancelled. I had to decline because of the short notice and drive time after work. I didn't even know that shots were available in our area, and I actually pay attention to such things. I guess that I am back to the bottom of the list (in the 60 to 65 age group). And it is the Astral Zenica vaccine, which comes with baggage.


----------



## Brownski

Since my company’s management ceased allowing us to work from home on June 1, I’ve been out on the road in Westchester County (including New Rochelle where it all started) visiting 6-10 liquor stores a day. It’s virtually impossible that I haven’t been in the same room with many non-symptomatic infected people. On the other hand, the nature of things means that I don’t get picked up by any contact tracers and if I picked it up someplace, I would almost certainly be a super spreader before I knew I had it. But New York has decided to micromanage the 1B group eligibility and somebody decided to leave the liquor/ wine industry out until further notice. I would get the shot in a minute. I would take a personal day (or 2) if that was required. Until then I’m just going to work and rolling the dice. I wear the mask, wash my hands and hope for the best. So if I end up giving it to you, I apologize in advance.


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

I think things have changed pretty drastically in the last few days. I got several notifications today for times/places to get stabbed after weeks of silence. In the past few days, they've opened (or announced that they'll be opening) vaccinations sites in Kingston, New Paltz, Oneonta, and Middletown. And probably a lot of other places too but those are the ones in my neighborhood. The end may be in sight.


----------



## tirolski

Sick Bird Rider said:


> Strangely enough, I got a call out of the blue today from my new family doctor at 4 pm (old one quit due to sexual misconduct allegations, who know?) offering me an appointment at 5:40 today because someone cancelled. I had to decline because of the short notice and drive time after work. I didn't even know that shots were available in our area, and I actually pay attention to such things. I guess that I am back to the bottom of the list (in the 60 to 65 age group). And it is the Astral Zenica vaccine, which comes with baggage.


Astral Zenica is unknown, but Astrazenica’s jab has yet to obtain Emergency Use Authorization approval in the USA.








						Will the US approve the AstraZeneca vaccine amid Europe suspensions?
					

AstraZeneca plans to file for US emergency use authorization next month for its COVID-19 vaccine — but the process could be under intense scrutiny with several European countries pausing its …




					nypost.com


----------



## jasonwx

I drove 1.5 hrs for mine
My daughter seems to able to find appts at will. 
they need to open it up to everyone


----------



## Campgottagopee

Bowling alleys, pool halls, and movie theaters now do not have a cerfew but bars and restaurants still have to close at 11. 
NYS can fuck anything up


----------



## jasonwx

Is there really any enforcement ?
Do u think the ski areas operated at the alleged guide lines? Who’s counting ?


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Is there really any enforcement ?
> Do u think the ski areas operated at the alleged guide lines? Who’s counting ?



Most def there's enforcement. The state has been and still is sending people into places just looking for violations. Just a couple weeks ago a local VFW (friggin VFW) got written up, and fined, because they were using potato chips as food. Now seriously, wtf does it matter if it's a bag of chips, cheese and crackers, or a hotdog. It's the dumbest thing ever. One of my closest friends owns the bowling alley right across the street from my office. 2 or tree times a week I'd pop in there for a couple beers after work. Now I don't dare to. I don't want to be the reason he gets fined or written up or whatever the state man has up his ass that day. I don't want anything to eat, I just want a couple beers and shoot the shit with my friend. That's it. But somehow, magically, if I have food it's OK. Fuck that --- it's time for this to be done with. I'm not suggesting doing away with all covid guidelines, but is there anything wrong with common sense?


----------



## Brownski

The state has their inspectors and any law enforcement that will cooperate checking in on restaurants constantly. The Saloon in Pearl River had their liquor license suspended for a couple weeks


----------



## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> The state has their inspectors and any law enforcement that will cooperate checking in on restaurants constantly. The Saloon in Pearl River had their liquor license suspended for a couple weeks


Wow
I stand corrected


----------



## Brownski

jasonwx said:


> Wow
> I stand corrected


We live in crazy times for sure


----------



## XTski

How about any strange questions asked when trying to purchase a lift ticket, a friend getting a buddy pass at the Beast was questioned like their was a light bulb hanging overhead, questions I expected but then out of the blue “have you ever lived in Michigan “.?? Now my friend had been patient until then and under normal situation I would have chimed in some wise comment but it was full on “soup nazi” shit and I didn’t want to hear “no skiing for you!” (That happened to the people in front of us) So I shut up and cringed and just kept calm like that was normal question.
Now I say to my friend that since he is in the system all he needs for future bud passes is to give a vial of blood
wtf, enjoy the spring; (he had never even been to Michigan in his life)


----------



## JTG

My daughter has been working retail in a small consignment shop. Businesses take this seriously, you don’t know when big bro is watching, and they are at times.

Especially when people are drunk during St. Patty’s day weekend before day drinking it leads to nonsense like this. Sign on the door (every store door in NY) says no mask, no entry. Guy comes in to the shop with his girlfriend, tells his girlfriend he’s gonna punch my daughter in the head if she tells him he has to put his mask on. Daughter hears that and gives him the usual bit (I didn’t make the rules, the sign’s on the door, my boss has cameras to make sure us min wage workers enforce it, lest the shop gets closed, I’m just doing my job). He backs down and puts his mask on, girlfriend apologizes to my daughter for his behavior, daughter tells girlfriend she needs to get a better boyfriend because the one she has now obviously doesn’t know how to treat people with respect.


----------



## Brownski

That is nuts


----------



## Campgottagopee

JTG said:


> daughter tells girlfriend she needs to get a better boyfriend because the one she has now obviously doesn’t know how to treat people with respect.



Good for her
Chicks dig gentlemen


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm seeing where many covid shot appointments are being missed and or cancelled. It's all over the news. I'm thinking if it was easier to get the damn thing this wouldn't be the case. I had to drive 45 minutes to get mine and was more than happy to do so. Not everyone will/can do that. It's time to get this thing so you can get it local, without having to fill out a bunch of BS paperwork on a stupid computer that nobody even cares about, or looks at, when you show up.
> Rant over ✌️


News for NY or national? As with everything else for the pandemic, there are a lot of regional, state, county, and even city differences for the vaccine rollout.

As the national pharmacy chains increase the number of locations and states where COVID-19 vaccinations are available, that will make a difference. Know of someone in Boston who was working to get her father an appointment a few weeks ago since he qualified by age. Found that the local pharmacy (Walgreens?) that was under 2 miles from his house had available appointments. The nearest MA clinic was about an hour away.


----------



## MarzNC

Sick Bird Rider said:


> And it is the Astral Zenica vaccine, which comes with baggage.


Only if you think like some Europeans. The EU has made a complete mess out of the vaccine rollout. All they seem to believe in is lock downs. Some countries never allowed ski lifts to operate at all.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Astral Zenica is unknown, but Astrazenica’s jab has yet to obtain Emergency Use Authorization approval in the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will the US approve the AstraZeneca vaccine amid Europe suspensions?
> 
> 
> AstraZeneca plans to file for US emergency use authorization next month for its COVID-19 vaccine — but the process could be under intense scrutiny with several European countries pausing its …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


Normal for the FDA to wait until the U.S. clinical trial is complete. In general, evidence from other countries for efficacy can only be supportive, not the core evidence. Statistics from other countries to demonstrate safety is required. The idea is to combine data for as many subjects as possible when looking for the incidence of adverse reactions.

I didn't work on vaccine trials, but did work on submissions to the FDA for drugs that had been used in Europe for decades before a submission to the FDA for as a treatment for a new use.


----------



## MarzNC

Here are the two sources I've been looking at to get a sense of how vaccinations are going by state. All reports are based on CDC data for vaccinations. So states that are slow to transfer info have more of a time lag. That's been a factor for GA, and perhaps a few other states that were less prepared from an IT standpoint.

Overall percentage just over 20% for the first shot by March 17, with a range of about 15-30% on a state basis. Most states will get to 25% by the end of the week. People who get the 1-shot J&J are counted for both First Shot and Fully Vaccinated.









Tracking COVID-19 vaccine distribution by state: How many people have been vaccinated in the US?


See how many COVID-19 vaccines your state received, and how many people have been given one so far.




www.usatoday.com













See How Vaccinations Are Going in Your County and State


See where doses have gone, and who is eligible for a shot in each state.



www.nytimes.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Normal for the FDA to wait until the U.S. clinical trial is complete. In general, evidence from other countries for efficacy can only be supportive, not the core evidence. Statistics from other countries to demonstrate safety is required. The idea is to combine data for as many subjects as possible when looking for the incidence of adverse reactions.
> 
> I didn't work on vaccine trials, but did work on submissions to the FDA for drugs that had been used in Europe for decades before a submission to the FDA for as a treatment for a new use.


AstraZeneca jab trial had a faux pas relating to dosage. So there’s that. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...about-dosing-error-letter-shows-idUSKBN2A1263


----------



## professor

Never had the desire to comment on any of this until today. While looking through the craft beer selection at the local mini-mart here in Hunter I over heard a conversation that makes me think America is doomed. Some guy at the counter was telling the cashier that he wasn't getting the vaccine. His reasoning was that it's not a vaccine but a genetic altering drug and it changes your genes forever. He claimed to personally knew of 3 people that died from the vaccine. He left before I made it to the register. From their conversation I could tell the cashier was concerned about the safety of the vaccine. I told her I didn't believe a word this guy said...she asked me where I got my information from .... I said "the CDC"... her reply was "I don't trust main stream media" and she also mentioned she knew of someone that died from the vaccine.


----------



## Warp daddy

professor said:


> Never had the desire to comment on any of this until today. While looking through the craft beer selection at the local mini-mart here in Hunter I over heard a conversation that makes me think America is doomed. Some guy at the counter was telling the cashier that he wasn't getting the vaccine. His reasoning was that it's not a vaccine but a genetic altering drug and it changes your genes forever. He claimed to personally knew of 3 people that died from the vaccine. He left before I made it to the register. From there conversation I could tell the cashier was concerned about the safety of the vaccine. I told her I didn't believe a word this guy said...she asked me where I got my information from .... I said "the CDC"... her reply was "I don't trust main stream media" and she also mentioned she knew of someone that died from the vaccine.


Invincible Ignorance ! Hard to convince " true believers" of ................( insert the conspiracy theory du jour) ??? I'm thinking Social Darwinism is at hand , The dumbing down of ' Murrica '


----------



## Campgottagopee

professor said:


> Never had the desire to comment on any of this until today. While looking through the craft beer selection at the local mini-mart here in Hunter I over heard a conversation that makes me think America is doomed. Some guy at the counter was telling the cashier that he wasn't getting the vaccine. His reasoning was that it's not a vaccine but a genetic altering drug and it changes your genes forever. He claimed to personally knew of 3 people that died from the vaccine. He left before I made it to the register. From there conversation I could tell the cashier was concerned about the safety of the vaccine. I told her I didn't believe a word this guy said...she asked me where I got my information from .... I said "the CDC"... her reply was "I don't trust main stream media" and she also mentioned she knew of someone that died from the vaccine.



You see! That craft beer crap will mess your mind up but good!


----------



## x10003q

professor said:


> Never had the desire to comment on any of this until today. While looking through the craft beer selection at the local mini-mart here in Hunter I over heard a conversation that makes me think America is doomed. Some guy at the counter was telling the cashier that he wasn't getting the vaccine. His reasoning was that it's not a vaccine but a genetic altering drug and it changes your genes forever. He claimed to personally knew of 3 people that died from the vaccine. He left before I made it to the register. From their conversation I could tell the cashier was concerned about the safety of the vaccine. I told her I didn't believe a word this guy said...she asked me where I got my information from .... I said "the CDC"... her reply was "I don't trust main stream media" and she also mentioned she knew of someone that died from the vaccine.


Russian spin via Macedonia is always more trustworthy than the US govt. 

I know that since i got my first shot I can pickup KHL play by play in English if I hold my jaw in a certain position and face North. 
Also, I have been hearing a Bill Gates Podcast whenever I turn on the lights in my basement. Do you think they are related?


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Russian spin via Macedonia is always more trustworthy than the US govt.
> 
> I know that since i got my first shot I can pickup KHL play by play in English if I hold my jaw in a certain position and face North.
> Also, I have been hearing a Bill Gates Podcast whenever I turn on the lights in my basement. Do you think they are related?



That was good ?


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

professor said:


> Never had the desire to comment on any of this until today. While looking through the craft beer selection at the local mini-mart here in Hunter I over heard a conversation that makes me think America is doomed. Some guy at the counter was telling the cashier that he wasn't getting the vaccine. His reasoning was that it's not a vaccine but a genetic altering drug and it changes your genes forever. He claimed to personally knew of 3 people that died from the vaccine. He left before I made it to the register. From their conversation I could tell the cashier was concerned about the safety of the vaccine. I told her I didn't believe a word this guy said...she asked me where I got my information from .... I said "the CDC"... her reply was "I don't trust main stream media" and she also mentioned she knew of someone that died from the vaccine.



How did we get so damn dumb?


----------



## Brownski

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> How did we get so damn dumb?


I don’t know about you but I started out dumb


----------



## G.ski

Idiocracy


----------



## raisingarizona

I like money.


----------



## gorgonzola

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> How did we get so damn dumb?


The older I get the less I know and the better I was


----------



## tirolski

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> How did we get so damn dumb?


What do you mean we? ... Tonto replied to Lone Ranger after he said, “Tonto, we’re surrounded by Indians!”


----------



## trackbiker

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> How did we get so damn dumb?


*"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."*
H.L Menken


----------



## Low Angle Life

My girlfriend teaches and has two aids in her classroom that both believe in the power of crystals and wont shut the fuck up about the vaccine killing people. Ironically they both have gotten their first doses. I can't quite understand people who believe in eastern medicine and magic rocks but but won't give this vaccine a shot. 

George Carlin sums it up best, 
_"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."_


----------



## Campgottagopee

Low Angle Life said:


> I can't quite understand people who believe in eastern medicine and magic rocks but but won't give this vaccine a shot.



right?


----------



## XTski

trackbiker said:


> *"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."*
> H.L Menken


Makes sense coming from Menken who it’s noted was a racist and anti semetic, his hometown Baltimore being the hotbed of such


----------



## XTski

XTski said:


> Makes sense coming from Menken who it’s noted was a racist and anti semetic, his hometown Baltimore being the hotbed of such too bad he didn’t stay in Germany


----------



## Campgottagopee

Dang!









Scientist behind coronavirus shot says next target is cancer


BERLIN (AP) — The scientist who won the race to deliver the first widely used coronavirus vaccine says people can rest assured the shots are safe, and the technology behind it will soon be used to fight another global scourge — cancer. Ozlem Tureci, who founded the German company BioNTech with...




cnycentral.com


----------



## trackbiker

Low Angle Life said:


> I can't quite understand people who believe in eastern medicine and magic rocks but but won't give this vaccine a shot.


I know people who never met a conspiracy theory that they didn't believe. But the one's who have a condition that makes them more vulnerable to the virus wore their masks and were first in line for the vaccine. Funny how their actions changed when their life could depend on it.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Russian spin via Macedonia is always more trustworthy than the US govt.


Putin wants to have a teleconference live with no delays with POTUS, allegedly. 
Put it on pay per view and folks all over the world would watch it. 
$ received could help with balancing budgets, pay for hospitals, nurses, education...


----------



## tirolski

Low Angle Life said:


> I can't quite understand people who believe in eastern medicine and magic rocks but but won't give this vaccine a shot.
> 
> George Carlin sums it up best,
> _"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."_


Eastern medicine is a thing and has been around longer than western medicine.
Magic rocks is a much tougher sell and placebo powered at best.


----------



## Low Angle Life

tirolski said:


> Eastern medicine is a thing and has been around longer than western medicine.
> Magic rocks is a much tougher sell and placebo powered at best.


I do Acupuncture from time to time and have my reservations about western cultures use of prescription drugs. There is definitely some real ancestral knowledge floating around in the universe that could help our world. That said there is no excuse for science in the face of global issues like pandemics and climate change.

My point was really to say if your willing to give those anecdotally proven remedies a try, why not also be open to a vaccine?


----------



## jasonwx

My 26 yr old daughter walked into the county health center at 330 and got a shot. No questions asked.


----------



## tirolski

Low Angle Life said:


> I do Acupuncture from time to time and have my reservations about western cultures use of prescription drugs. There is definitely some real ancestral knowledge floating around in the universe that could help our world. That said there is no excuse for science in the face of global issues like pandemics and climate change.
> 
> My point was really to say if your willing to give those anecdotally proven remedies a try, why not also be open to a vaccine?


I’m all for crystals. Snow is one type. Magic rocks is new one. I pick up rocks a lot and not anti jabs.


----------



## Campgottagopee

1/2" plywood just hit $63/sheet ?‍♂️

Not the best timing to be looking into an addition on the house --- lol


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> Eastern medicine is a thing *we no nothing about* and has been around longer than western medicine.
> Magic rocks is a much tougher sell and placebo powered at best.


FIFY. But sure, let's go with that instead of vaccines that have been proven to safe and effective for over a hundred years.

mm


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> 1/2" plywood just hit $63/sheet


What was the price two years ago?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> What was the price two years ago?



I'm not sure.
I spoke with a buddy of mine who just built a house last year. According to his contractor if he were to build that same house today, the materials would be 3x what they were a year ago.


----------



## tirolski

> tirolski said:
> Eastern medicine is a thing *we no nothing* *about* and has been around longer than western medicine.
> Magic rocks is a much tougher sell and placebo powered at best.





> FIFY. But sure, let's go with that instead of vaccines that have been proven to safe and effective for over a hundred years.
> 
> mm



Mr mm, Pharma has been formally studying eastern medicine for leads for at least the last forty years. To say we know nothing about is untrue.

Regarding the mRNA jabs, it codes for the SARS-CoV2 spike protein and those are in fact new. They've yet to go thru a formal FDA vaccine approval process. They're use is governed in the USA by an Emergency Use Authorization. I’m not an anti-vaxer.
Just stating what’s true.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> Mr mm, Pharma has been formally studying eastern medicine for leads for at least the last forty years. To say we know nothing about is untrue.


And what they learn of Eastern traditional medicine by the scientific method can be incorporated into Western practice. I'm sticking with science and vaccines over internet rumors about Chinese traditions.

mm


----------



## JTG

Listen, I don’t partake of Eastern medicine, and although I don’t know exactly how I feel about the COVID vaccines I do have an appointment to get one.

MM....did tirolski say he was shunning all vaccines for Eastern remedies? I don’t recall seeing that.

tirolski does make a good point that Eastern remedies, for some things at least, have validity.

Makes an even better point that the COVID vaccines don’t fall into your category of vaccines that have been proven to be safe and effective for over a hundred years.

Just sayin.....


----------



## Milo Maltbie

JTG said:


> tirolski does make a good point that Eastern remedies, for some things at least, have validity.
> 
> Makes an even better point that the COVID vaccines don’t fall into your category of vaccines that have been proven to be safe and effective for over a hundred years.


If Eastern remedies are valid, that can be proven by science. Most of the evidence for Eastern medicine seems to be the same kind is internet rumors that fuel the whole anti-vax ignorance, which started long before the new COVID vaccines. COVID vaccines may not yet have been proven as safe as some others, but still safe enough given the risk of COVID. The evidence against them is just ordinary stupid vaccine denialism and internet garbage.

mm


----------



## wonderpony

I get acupuncture, and so do my horses. I had one that couldn't walk without coughing. We tried all sorts of Western medicine. After her first acupuncture treatment (from my vet, who also does acupuncture), she was MUCH better. There is no placebo effect there, IMO. I get acupunctured for cold-weather asthma. I used to not be able to run in anything much lower that 45 degrees, without having a hard time breathing. Now, I am fine. I ran outside in as cold as 25 this winter, with no issues and no inhaler.

I will also be getting my vaccine this afternoon.


----------



## Campgottagopee

wonderpony said:


> I will also be getting my vaccine this afternoon.



I get my second shot one week from tomorrow. I'll be glad to have it over and done with.


----------



## tirolski

Full Moon helped big ship get unstuck. Gotta love full moons.


https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article250282120.html


----------



## JTG

Milo Maltbie said:


> internet garbage.
> 
> mm


Lots of that around, yeah. Biggest problem with that is a lack of objective discussion. Most people are (or assume others are) in one camp or another. Mostly ends of the spectrum, it seems. News is manipulated, social media somewhat scrubbed. That’s always been a problem, even pre-COVID. It’s probably worse now. Then people beat down anyone who might discuss something that contradicts their beliefs, educated or otherwise. Big heaping pile o’ garbage, agreed.

Yes, Eastern remedies can be, and have been, proven by/incorporated into Western medicine. However, the were used effectively elsewhere long before proven to your scientific satisfaction, so it seems silly to discount the concept of Eastern medicine entirely, no?

What “evidence against” COVID vaccines are you talking about? Problem is, there’s not really much evidence FOR them being safe (and effective), much less AGAINST them. That’s the point. For over a hundred years there have been vaccine protocols in place....protocols that were abandoned to rush a never before used (on humans) kind of vaccine to market. Like I said, I have an appointment, and my wife has had her first shot. We aren’t deniers. That said, if the circumstances don’t lead one to at least be a little hesitant and ask questions.....well, I guess I have quote my younger brother’s favorite word. Sheeple. 

If people have reasonable questions or concerns and they want to talk about, I don’t think anyone should squash that.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm not sure.
> I spoke with a buddy of mine who just built a house last year. According to his contractor if he were to build that same house today, the materials would be 3x what they were a year ago.


There have been calls for Biden from builders and contractors groups to remove the Canadian tariffs. In 2017, Trump implemented tariffs of up to 24% on lumber imports from Canada.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> There have been calls for Biden from builders and contractors groups to remove the Canadian tariffs. In 2017, Trump implemented tariffs of up to 24% on lumber imports from Canada.


My buddy built his house in 2020
It isn't even a year old yet and the materials are triple the cost. All I'm saying is it's super expensive to build right now, and the only reason I'm aware of it is because I'm looking into an addition for my house. Well, not anymore --- LOL


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> My buddy built his house in 2020
> It isn't even a year old yet and the materials are triple the cost. All I'm saying is it's super expensive to build right now, and the only reason I'm aware of it is because I'm looking into an addition for my house. Well, not anymore --- LOL


We just had our planning board variance meeting for an addition and our plans where approved.


----------



## Harvey

I'm counting on things settling down before we build in 3 years. At these prices we'd have to come up with a different plan.


----------



## tirolski

Have y’all considered steel. Doesn’t rot or burn. 
It’s also straighter and faster, kinda like how some folks ski.








Lumber Prices Skyrocket, Steel Provides Cost-Effective Solution - Light Steel Framing Studs & Connectors- The Steel Network


Originally published March 4, 2021 Updated May 3, 2021 According to the Wall Street Journal, lumber prices have shot to fresh records, defying the normal winter slowdown in wood-product sales in a sign that the pandemic building boom is bowling into 2021. The last week of February (2021), the...




steelnetwork.com


----------



## x10003q

JTG said:


> What “evidence against” COVID vaccines are you talking about? Problem is, there’s not really much evidence FOR them being safe (and effective), much less AGAINST them. That’s the point. For over a hundred years there have been vaccine protocols in place....protocols that were abandoned to rush a never before used (on humans) kind of vaccine to market. Like I said, I have an appointment, and my wife has had her first shot. We aren’t deniers. That said, if the circumstances don’t lead one to at least be a little hesitant and ask questions.....well, I guess I have quote my younger brother’s favorite word. Sheeple.
> 
> If people have reasonable questions or concerns and they want to talk about, I don’t think anyone should squash that.


So what are your questions?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

JTG said:


> What “evidence against” COVID vaccines are you talking about?


Just to clarify, I don't know of any evidence against COVID vaccines, and the evidence for them is more than adequate given the serious problems caused by the pandemic. I thought I was clear about that.

mm


----------



## JTG

x10003q said:


> So what are your questions?


What are the long term implications of introducing an mRNA vaccine into the human body?

Nobody knows. Not saying that’s enough to push me off the vaccine....but it’s a valid question.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I'm counting on things settling down before we build in 3 years. At these prices we'd have to come up with a different plan.



We're lucky in that we aren't in a hurry, just like you. We are also looking at possibly purchasing a different house but time will tell. Either the right place will come along or we'll wait until material prices settle down.


----------



## JTG

Milo Maltbie said:


> I thought I was clear about that.
> 
> mm


Not really. The evidence FOR consists of limited and rushed clinical trials, far less than has been done for most vaccines, trials that show most of the people who got the vaccine, none more than a few months ago, haven’t contracted COVID? Am I missing something? That’s evidence, but I’m not sure how adequate it is. There is no evidence that a new and never before used mRNA vaccine won’t have side effects we don’t know about. Right now the vaccine is as much a well intentioned and necessary experiment than it is pure, proven, science. I’m sure you disagree, based on what little info is available.


----------



## x10003q

Milo Maltbie said:


> Just to clarify, I don't know of any evidence against COVID vaccines, and the evidence for them is more than adequate given the serious problems caused by the pandemic. I thought I was clear about that.
> 
> mm


agree


----------



## x10003q

JTG said:


> What are the long term implications of introducing an mRNA vaccine into the human body?
> 
> Nobody knows. Not saying that’s enough to push me off the vaccine....but it’s a valid question.


So take the J&J vaccine.


----------



## x10003q

JTG said:


> Not really. The evidence FOR consists of limited and rushed clinical trials, far less than has been done for most vaccines, trials that show most of the people who got the vaccine, none more than a few months ago, haven’t contracted COVID? Am I missing something? That’s evidence, but I’m not sure how adequate it is. There is no evidence that a new and never before used mRNA vaccine won’t have side effects we don’t know about. Right now the vaccine is as much a well intentioned and necessary experiment than it is pure, proven, science. I’m sure you disagree, based on what little info is available.


Are you a virologist?


----------



## Low Angle Life

Man ski season must really be winding down here...


----------



## JTG

No evidence the J&J shot is better/safer (given what we don’t know) than the mRNA vaccines. J&J is not a “traditional” vaccine. While it does incorporate weakened virus, given that it’s a viral vector shot it uses that viral material in a different way than traditional vaccines. Seems that viral vectors use weakened virus not to produce antibodies, but rather it’s used to introduce double stranded genetic code (via Adenovirus 26/HAdv-D26) into human cells. That adenovirus is encoded with DNA instruction for building coronavirus spiked proteins. So, even though it’s different, it acts in a somewhat similar manner to the mRNA vaccines. Or so I’ve read.

Again, not saying any of that is a reason to not take any of the shots, but it’s a fair question what long term effects circumventing our natural immunities via genetic response to this particular Coronavirus may have on our bodies’ abilities to respond to other Coronaviruses, and Coronaviruses are pretty common.

Maybe I ask too many questions, maybe I misunderstand the science...but asking question doesn’t seem imprudent. Being able to talk about it with others who might know more, without being hushed and slammed down as a denier, would seem like a good thing...


----------



## JTG

x10003q said:


> Are you a virologist?


No. Apparently because I’m not I should shut up and not ask questions?

I guess you are a virologist, and the fact that none of these vaccines have been thru the typical clinical cycle that most vaccines go thru doesn’t concern you. Regarding the J&J viral vector shot, they won’t be done with (typical) clinical trials until 2023, apparently....


----------



## Campgottagopee

I told myself I would get whatever shot they had available. I also felt it was my duty to get vaccinated.


----------



## x10003q

JTG said:


> No. I guess you are, and the fact that none of these vaccines have been thru the typical clinical cycle that most vaccines go thru doesn’t concern you. Regarding the J&J viral vector shot, they won’t be done with (typical) clinical trials until 2023, apparently....


Nope, not a virologist and I don't pretend to be one either. You don't even know what you don't know.
I will continue to trust the FDA advisory board of virologists who decided to approve these vaccines on an emergency order.


----------



## JTG

Campgottagopee said:


> I told myself I would get whatever shot they had available. I also felt it was my duty to get vaccinated.


I appreciate that. Same reason my wife got it. Same reason I will. However, would you say your choice to get the vaccine was based more on your duty, or your comfort level with the process/science?


----------



## JTG

x10003q said:


> Nope, not a virologist and I don't pretend to be one either. You don't even know what you don't know.
> I will continue to trust the FDA advisory board of virologists who decided to approve these vaccines on an emergency order.


Yeah, I get that. I’m trying to get myself more comfortable being there as well....trusting in virologists that know a bazillion times more than I do, but also knowing they don’t really know (what they don’t know) either.


----------



## Warp daddy

I m having a new roof put on and plywood materials costs are up signifcantly . 

Using Same contractor (i skied with the guy and he has an Engineering degree from VA TECH ) and is the best roofing and general contractor in our immediate region with all the right lift gear and a swat team of installers .we are high end shingles and job bid allows for up to two 4x8 sections of plywood IF NECESSARY within the bid .

My point here is IF additional sections are needed ( i doubt any will be needed ) BUT those will be 70 bucks a piece installed . Offffh 

I was pleasantly surprised his overall bid was only up 23 percent from 17 years ago whereas standard inflation ( per inflation calculator ) over that period was 39 percent


----------



## Face4Me

From my own perspective, a friend of mine has worked in Pfizer's clinical vaccine trials program for over 20 years. I had seen her last June and she was very excited about what they were seeing in the clinical trials they were running. For me, and this is strictly a personal decision, I trust her, and knowing that she would get the vaccine and would have her family vaccinated, is good enough for me. I had my first dose last Thursday ... funny enough though ... Moderna not Pfizer! 

On another thought, I'm always amazed by our "selectivity" when it comes to worrying about things that can harm us, like the COVID vaccines. The truth is, we don't know for sure what, if any, the long term consequences of these vaccines could be. Having said that, we DO KNOW the harmful effects that drinking alcohol, smoking, marijuana, etc. have on our bodies, yet we choose to ignore that harm! If you consider a vaccine COULD quite literally save your life, maybe it's worth the risk.


----------



## Campgottagopee

JTG said:


> I appreciate that. Same reason my wife got it. Same reason I will. However, would you say your choice to get the vaccine was based more on your duty, or your comfort level with the process/science?


Duty

Like many others I'm skeptical on how this stuff was thrown together, if this is the new norm why can't all meds be that way? Right?

Plus the people I know who work in the medical field also gave it the thumbs up, and I know I've done way dumber things to my body in the past.


----------



## gorgonzola

Face4Me said:


> I'm always amazed by our "selectivity" when it comes to worrying about things that can harm us


Likewise, years ago a family friend was trying to sell me copper jewelry touting how it aligns the electrons in the body and provides great health benefits. I listened to his spiel and asked him if that's why he lived so close to the high tension line near his house. He responded that they don' have any effect, and we went back and forth - my argument being that, good or bad, one can't be true without the other. He still is stand-offish to me to this day....


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Like many others I'm skeptical on how this stuff was thrown together, if this is the new norm why can't all meds be that way? Right?


It's not right to say it was "thrown together." The approval process is long and costly, and ordinarily is conducted one step at a time, each step requirjng its own approval. Those steps were conducted concurrently in the case of COVID vaccines, but that required the government to guarantee the cost if failures. The idea that there was no time for adequate review is anti-vaxer horseshit.

I'm comfortable taking ny FDA approved vaccine. Russion or Chinese approved vaccines, maybe not before FDA approval.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> It's not right to say it was "thrown together."



Tough shit -- I said it


----------



## Face4Me

Milo Maltbie said:


> Those steps were conducted concurrently in the case of COVID vaccines, but that required the government to guarantee the cost if failures.


This ... As I understand it, there's a federally funded program that was created to set aside funds to deal with potential claims made due to these vaccines.


----------



## Tjf1967

I'm pretty comfortable with the vaccine. They went through a pretty thorough process. Moderna had the vaccine 3 days after China gave us the code. It took an entire year with multi stage trials going on. That's a lot to me. 
I'm not impressed with society as a whole. Not surprised.


----------



## Campgottagopee

One thing is this was certainly a race to the finish line for big pharma, lots of cash to be made. That said, I would imagine these companies had the best of the best on this thing. That can't be bad.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I'm not impressed with society as a whole. Not surprised.



Yeah, I know what you mean and somewhat agree. I know a handful of people who aren't getting the vax, for one reason or another. As much as I feel it's our duty to protect or neighborhood, I have to respect their decision. In saying that, what I mean is, there are a lot of these kinds of issues that I understand but just don't agree with.


----------



## G.ski

x10003q said:


> So take the J&J vaccine.


This is my plan when I get stuck in May.


----------



## Harvey

Face4Me said:


> The truth is, we don't know for sure what, if any, the long term consequences of these vaccines could be. Having said that, we DO KNOW the harmful effects that drinking alcohol, smoking, marijuana, etc. have on our bodies, yet we choose to ignore that harm! If you consider a vaccine COULD quite literally save your life, maybe it's worth the risk.


Also the long term risk of covid. It ain't over for me.


----------



## XTski

wonderpony said:


> I get acupuncture, and so do my horses. I had one that couldn't walk without coughing. We tried all sorts of Western medicine. After her first acupuncture treatment (from my vet, who also does acupuncture), she was MUCH better. There is no placebo effect there, IMO. I get acupunctured for cold-weather asthma. I used to not be able to run in anything much lower that 45 degrees, without having a hard time breathing. Now, I am fine. I ran outside in as cold as 25 this winter, with no issues and no inhaler.
> 
> I will also be getting my vaccine this afternoon.


does Abigal (acupuncturist) work with your horses?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Also the long term risk of covid. It ain't over for me.



Same. I get headaches every. single. day. since I had covid. I never had gotten them before. I pound Tylenol like they're M&M's


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Same. I get headaches every. single. day. since I had covid. I never had gotten them before. I pound Tylenol like they're M&M's


Dang. Long haulers is a thing. And not good. 
SARS-CoV2 can cause more than respiratory troubles, but it’s named for it.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Same. I get headaches every. single. day. since I had covid. I never had gotten them before. I pound Tylenol like they're M&M's


I have vertigo, but that seems to be getting better now.

I had a fever come on a few weeks ago, brutal chills and I was like "ut oh" here we go again. It went away in about a day, and I tested negative. It felt exactly like the original onset of covid, but who knows. I was wondering if I got a variant and beat it quick because of some immunity from the first time.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Dang. Long haulers is a thing. And not good.



I'm hoping they go away just like they showed up, out of nowhere. My Doc says they can last for months.


----------



## JohnF

'Long-Haulers' Are Finding Relief After Getting Their COVID-19 Vaccine
					

An estimated 10% to 30%  of people who get COVID-19 don't fully recover, but have chronic symptoms. Now some of these "long-haulers" are finding relief after getting the COVID-19 vaccine.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Campgottagopee

That's what I'm hoping for once I get me second shot next week ^^^^^^^^ ?


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> That's what I'm hoping for once I get me second shot next week ^^^^^^^^ ?


Sure hoping you feel much better , damn you and harv both been thru some shit with this .


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> My buddy built his house in 2020
> It isn't even a year old yet and the materials are triple the cost. All I'm saying is....


I love it when someone tells camp a reason for something, then he just says “All I know is...” and doesn’t take into account any new information that he is given, preferring instead to just make uninformed base observations about the world around him, completely incurious as to why things are the way they are.

I guess you can go too far in the other direction, though. Americans specifically (including people in this thread), seem to have no idea about basic facts on the virus (https://fee.org/articles/americans-...zation-from-covid-19-survey-shows-here-s-why/). It probably has to do with the sensationalist media, which amplifies man-bites-dog stories (“this 20-year old DIED!”, “this long hauler STILL CAN’T SMELL”, etc.) and not the normal stories (“this dude got it, had a sore throat, then got over it”). Even today, NPR had a doctor on that said that the 60,000 cases (in a country of 350,000,000) is terrible & alarming and that everyone should hunker down, even if they are vaccinated.

I think we have to have a more positive attitude here. Every day, good news comes out about the virus (today: Pfizer’s vaccine is 100% effective for kids aged 12-15 and Pfizer & Moderna have shown that the vaccines cut both infection AND transmission) and every day I just hear doom & gloom. It’s wild.

Take a break from the news sometimes, guys. Go outside. Read a book. Fly a kite.

Note: I got my second vax shot last week you suckers so maybe I’m just feeling invincible.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> I love it when someone tells camp a reason for something, then he just says “All I know is...” and doesn’t take into account any new information that he is given, preferring instead to just make uninformed base observations about the world around him, completely incurious as to why things are the way they are.


Sorry D-bag

I'm not getting into politics with anyone, and that's the direction that conversation was going to go, so I dismissed it. You too can fuck off.


----------



## MarzNC

Milo Maltbie said:


> If Eastern remedies are valid, that can be proven by science. Most of the evidence for Eastern medicine seems to be the same kind is internet rumors that fuel the whole anti-vax ignorance, which started long before the new COVID vaccines. COVID vaccines may not yet have been proven as safe as some others, but still safe enough given the risk of COVID. The evidence against them is just ordinary stupid vaccine denialism and internet garbage.
> 
> mm


Haven't been reading this thread . . . having too much fun skiing at Taos last week.

Put "clinical studies acupuncture" into a Search engine and plenty of studies will turn up. Studies were initiated by western medical researchers soon after China opened up in the 1970s. Fair to say that most physicians were totally skeptical until they saw surgery done with only acupuncture.

A key reason that the clinical studies for COVID-19 vaccines could be completed relatively quickly was that it was easy to find enough subjects. Enrolling 30,000+ subjects when there is no guarantee that someone will get the test vaccine, but might just get a placebo can take years. The situation was different during a pandemic. Plus the research for SARS-CoV-2 was based on previous research for other coronavirus vaccines. That research was puttering along very slowly in terms of clinical studies due to lack of funding and other factors. But the lab work was pretty well defined.


----------



## MarzNC

Milo Maltbie said:


> I'm comfortable taking ny FDA approved vaccine. Russion or Chinese approved vaccines, maybe not before FDA approval.


Note that FDA requires a clinical trial done in the U.S. before reviewing the complete data available for any drug, vaccine, or medical device. Data from other countries can be supportive but not the basis for approval of efficacy. Data from all clinical trials worldwide must be included in the "safety data," which covers all reports of adverse effects.

One reason it takes longer and costs more to obtain FDA approval is that the regulatory approach is different than for other countries. For what it's worth, I worked in the pharma/biotech industry for 15 years and participated as a large database specialist on a few FDA submissions. Ph.D. is in Biostatistics.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Sorry D-bag
> 
> You too can fuck off.


Nice attitude, man. I’d rather hear a thousand political conversations than treat people like this. But you keep doing you, I guess.


----------



## Brownski

I think I’m finally getting a shot tomorrow


----------



## MarzNC

The UNC School of Medicine in Chapel Hill, NC has opened up a clinic specifically for COVID-19 long haulers.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> I think I’m finally getting a shot tomorrow


I have to wait until my trip to Alta in early April. NC is opening up to everyone 16+ on April 7.

My ski buddy in NM who is over 65 got an appointment. But it's when he'll be at Alta. So he'll have to wait until he gets home after that ski trip too. He paid to do an At-Home PCR test after the ski trips in Dec and Feb. Tested negative both times. It hasn't been that hard to avoid close contact (over 15 min) with strangers when at ski resorts. Especially when only doing take-out for meals.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> Nice attitude, man. I’d rather hear a thousand political conversations than treat people like this. But you keep doing you, I guess.



F off

You haven't been involved around here, and when you are it's only to make fun of someone's post. Fuck off. Anymore I have zero tolerance for your petty BS.


----------



## wonderpony

XTski said:


> does Abigal (acupuncturist) work with your horses?


No, Jeff LaPoint of Finger Lakes Equine Practice.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> F off
> 
> You haven't been involved around here, and when you are it's only to make fun of someone's post. Fuck off. Anymore I have zero tolerance for your petty BS.


Absolutely wrong. You saw my Greek Peak video & liked it.

But it’s true that I don’t find this place as much fun anymore. Part of the reason is that certain people on this forum (like you) can give it, but they can’t take it.

I can’t believe that you feel the need to curse and namecall for such dumb reasons. Amazing


----------



## Campgottagopee

Back on ignore goes the bully

Such a nice feature of this new software


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Back on ignore goes the bully
> 
> Such a nice feature of this new software


Lol. You’ll see this post because you can’t help yourself.

And when you do, realize this: if you think everyone else is an asshole (and need to block people to protect yourself from them), it’s possible that you, yourself, are the asshole (you know, the guy calling people Douchebags and telling them to fuck off for no reason)


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I think I’m finally getting a shot tomorrow



Good for you


----------



## D.B. Cooper

MarzNC said:


> Haven't been reading this thread . . . having too much fun skiing at Taos last week.


Marz, I'm ready to go all Camp-MC2 on you for that comment. ?


----------



## XTski

MC2 said:


> I love it when someone tells camp a reason for something, then he just says “All I know is...” and doesn’t take into account any new information that he is given, preferring instead to just make uninformed base observations about the world around him, completely incurious as to why things are the way they are.
> 
> I guess you can go too far in the other direction, though. Americans specifically (including people in this thread), seem to have no idea about basic facts on the virus (https://fee.org/articles/americans-...zation-from-covid-19-survey-shows-here-s-why/). It probably has to do with the sensationalist media, which amplifies man-bites-dog stories (“this 20-year old DIED!”, “this long hauler STILL CAN’T SMELL”, etc.) and not the normal stories (“this dude got it, had a sore throat, then got over it”). Even today, NPR had a doctor on that said that the 60,000 cases (in a country of 350,000,000) is terrible & alarming and that everyone should hunker down, even if they are vaccinated.
> 
> I think we have to have a more positive attitude here. Every day, good news comes out about the virus (today: Pfizer’s vaccine is 100% effective for kids aged 12-15 and Pfizer & Moderna have shown that the vaccines cut both infection AND transmission) and every day I just hear doom & gloom. It’s wild.
> 
> Take a break from the news sometimes, guys. Go outside. Read a book. Fly a kite.
> 
> Note: I got my second vax shot last week you suckers so maybe I’m just feeling invincible.


When you say “Americans etc seem to have no idea....” are you putting down Americans? are you American?


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> I guess you can go too far in the other direction, though. Americans specifically (including people in this thread), seem to have no idea about basic facts on the virus...
> I think we have to have a more positive attitude here. Every day, good news comes out about the virus...
> Note: I got my second vax shot last week you suckers so maybe I’m just feeling invincible.


SARS-CoV2 sucks.


----------



## Ripitz

MarzNC said:


> Haven't been reading this thread . . . having too much fun skiing at Taos last week.


I love this...
nothing like a fresh face slap before getting served some good info


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Good for you


----------



## MC2

XTski said:


> When you say “Americans etc seem to have no idea....” are you putting down Americans? are you American?


Did you read the article I linked to? Or are you just rising to the defense of Americans(?) because you’re offended by something you read?


----------



## XTski

MC2 said:


> Did you read the article I linked to? Or are you just rising to the defense of Americans(?) because you’re offended by something you read?


I asked a simple question, as I don’t like your attitude towards Americans , not rising to anything or anyone, I don’t give a crap what article you post, after seeing you lecture people who block you I don’t care to read any article you post


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I think I’m finally getting a shot tomorrow



Did you get it?


----------



## Harvey

MC2 said:


> I don’t find this place as much fun anymore.



I'm finding it more fun. I don't really get the "johnny hurt my feelings" email anymore. Also the number of members participating is higher, always a good thing. To my knowledge, only had one person quit this year with hurt feelings.


----------



## Warp daddy

Btw : wtf happened to PTEX ?


----------



## MC2

one of the reasons that I don’t find it fun around here is because people attack me out of nowhere, and instead of allowing me to say anything, I find that I am blocked from responding to the thread.

it’s fine if that’s how you want to run the site, but I just don’t feel the need to contribute anything if I don’t get the chance to say my piece.

also, RA, the only person “virtue signaling” in that other thread is the guy who said “What the hell do you mean, Americans are dumb? No I won’t read the article you posted showing that Americans are dangerously uninformed about the virus, I know in my heart that all Americans are geniuses”

Also, that conversation was completely in the bounds of the thread, unlike the other conversations that were happening... like the petty sniping at me.


----------



## raisingarizona

I like it more now. Even though it seems like it’s trying to creep back in there’s been no or very little identity political bs. That gets seriously old.

Stick to ski stuff Matt. You’re a great skier but your political posturing and virtue signaling wears everyone down.


----------



## tirolski

Warp daddy said:


> Btw : wtf happened to PTEX ?


Should be sellin like hotcakes what with snow melt lately.


----------



## gorgonzola

I had to look up virtue signaling...


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Did you get it?


I did. I thought it was no big deal but last night my son told me I looked really tired and when I got up this morning the injection site hurts like hell and I do fell legitimately wiped out. I guess the nanobots are doing their thing in there.


----------



## Harvey

I get that.

We all know that covid has become a political issue and that people's ideas on it line up — to some extent — with their political views. It's unfortunate, but it's reality. The New Normal thread has the most potential to become political, so it's kind of an experiment. Can we talk about this thing that has been hanging over our heads for a year? It's arguably the biggest issue of the day.

Many of us know where others stand politically from the past days of PolitiCrap, and we can often read between the lines when someone posts something. To a large extent it seems like members here understand where I want to go and are helping me. At the end of the old forum 70% of posts were you and PeeTex and Coach arguing (granted it was summer) and it was really boring.

You've contributed some great content over the years, and you know more about skiing than most of us. Still, empirically I've found that one thing, removing you from The New Normal thread, makes my life easier. I understand that that means you won't post as much or any great on topic content. The trade off is worth it, to me.

ETA: Every time I post this ^^ sentiment I feel obligated to add that your request to kill the politics is what convinced me to do it. I certainly had been thinking about it, but that pushed me to do it.


----------



## Harvey

Warp daddy said:


> Btw : wtf happened to PTEX ?


He's fine. PT and Coach both quit.

Coach is now a regular at Skiology.


----------



## Warp daddy

Harvey said:


> He's fine. PT and Coach both quit.


I knew Coach quit but was not certain about PT , thanx Harv


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> PT and Coach both quit.


Brother gave up beer for lent. I ain’t a quitter.
Still using foam from beer as soap to keep oral cavity clean and spirits lifted.


----------



## raisingarizona

tirolski said:


> Brother gave up beer for lent. I ain’t a quitter.
> Still using foam from beer as soap to keep oral cavity clean and spirits lifted.


I’m moving away from beer in preference for legal and edible thc. I’m sleeping better, it manages my anxiety better, I’m not hung over and unproductive and I’m quickly losing weight. I’m feeling so much healthier. It may not work for everyone but it sure works for me!

I’m not giving beer up completely but I’m doing my best to not use it to manage my anxiety. That gets a little out of control tbh.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> I did. I thought it was no big deal but last night my son told me I looked really tired and when I got up this morning the injection site hurts like hell and I do fell legitimately wiped out. I guess the nanobots are doing their thing in there.


I’d get the same reaction from flu shots.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> legal and edible thc



Legal in NY now too


----------



## JTG

raisingarizona said:


> I’m moving away from beer in preference for legal and edible thc. I’m sleeping better, it manages my anxiety better...


Then you’ll be happy when you finally make it back east and ski Platty. NY finally approved recreational, although it will probably take a while before dispensaries open.

I don’t drink beer much any more, unfortunately not much impact on my problem areas. Weight has never been my problem, as much as a small old dad gut.

Juice has never been my go to for stress, but liquor is more efficient for that purpose!

....I see Camp beat me to that one by mere seconds.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Can we talk about this thing that has been hanging over our heads for a year?



Yes
We most certainly can and should talk about it. The vast majority can leave politics out of it.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Legal in NY now too


Bout time for this one but it’s not 4:20 yet.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> Legal in NY now too


This is great news!

I wonder how long the feds will keep it federally illegal as more and more states legalize its use.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> This is great news!


This place is in our neighborhood. Nice folks too.








						Tap Root Fields CBD
					

Tap Root Fields is a craft farm that makes affordable craft CBD products for everyday use. Choose from a wide variety of CBD Gummies, Tinctures, Hydroboost, Black Garlic and Hemp merchandise




					taprootfields.com


----------



## Tjf1967

MC2 said:


> one of the reasons that I don’t find it fun around here is because people attack me out of nowhere, and instead of allowing me to say anything, I find that I am blocked from responding to the thread.
> 
> it’s fine if that’s how you want to run the site, but I just don’t feel the need to contribute anything if I don’t get the chance to say my piece.
> 
> also, RA, the only person “virtue signaling” in that other thread is the guy who said “What the hell do you mean, Americans are dumb? No I won’t read the article you posted showing that Americans are dangerously uninformed about the virus, I know in my heart that all Americans are geniuses”
> 
> Also, that conversation was completely in the bounds of the thread, unlike the other conversations that were happening... like the petty sniping at me.


How did you get the vaccine? Guess your skiing is more important than old people living. Just cause you can doesn't mean you should


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> I wonder how long the feds will keep it federally illegal as more and more states legalize its use.



Hopefully soon. The amount of money spent for the war on drugs is staggering.


----------



## MC2

Tjf1967 said:


> How did you get the vaccine? Guess your skiing is more important than old people living. Just cause you can doesn't mean you should


I have a comorbidity. Are you the vaccine police?


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> He's fine. PT and Coach both quit.
> 
> Coach is now a regular at Skiology.


Now I want to go see what coach has to say over there. I was half expecting him to pop back up to scold me for mounting my old bindings on my old skis


----------



## Kingslug

Quit drinking for a year..felt better..but the stress is the same..and i miss beer..so now i have some here and there..screw it..lifes too short..


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> ETA: Every time I post this ^^ sentiment I feel obligated to add that your request to kill the politics is what convinced me to do it. I certainly had been thinking about it, but that pushed me to do it.


I thought that the politics thread was making me hate people I otherwise would like because of their dumb political opinions.

I now realize those people are just assholes in regards to everything and I probably wouldn’t like them anyway. I can’t imagine just being in constant sniping mode. Nobody was even talking to tjf and he comes out of nowhere to try to blast me in this thread. It’s amazing.


----------



## tirolski

I quit beer for a bit once. Folks gave me a spoon of whiskey for some reason when I came home from being born, allegedly.
Don’t touch whiskey but a cold brew does seem to hit the right spots.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I like a shot and a beer. They go together for me.


----------



## Tjf1967

MC2 said:


> I have a comorbidity. Are you the vaccine police?


Lol. Sorry. I should have just kept my mouth shut. I didn't realize being a dick was a comorbility. Carry on. Bazinga


----------



## wonderpony

MC2 said:


> I thought that the politics thread was making me hate people I otherwise would like because of their dumb political opinions.
> 
> I now realize those people are just assholes in regards to everything and I probably wouldn’t like them anyway. I can’t imagine just being in constant sniping mode. Nobody was even talking to tjf and he comes out of nowhere to try to blast me in this thread. It’s amazing.


I think that one of the hardest things to learn to accept is that someone's "dumb political opinion" makes sense to them. Not everyone who disagrees with you is an asshole. I grew up in a divided household. My ex and I used to go vote together and then cancel each other out. He did his research, I did mine, and we disagreed.


----------



## G.ski

This is why I post a lot less on AZ now.


----------



## raisingarizona

Kingslug said:


> Quit drinking for a year..felt better..but the stress is the same..and i miss beer..so now i have some here and there..screw it..lifes too short..


Fkna right! I haven’t quit, just tweaking my self medicating approach is all.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> I like a shot and a beer. They go together for me.


I love sipping on some good Canadian whiskey with my pint!


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> Now I want to go see what coach has to say over there. I was half expecting him to pop back up to scold me for mounting my old bindings on my old skis


I like coach. I even enjoyed his crotchety old school conservative look at the world. I dunno, I like people that have different ways of seeing things and independent opinions. It keeps life interesting and there’s always room to learn from others. It would be a shame to go through life being so sure of my own opinions that I become hateful towards people that are different. That’s often the funniest thing about extreme lefties. They can be just like the ones that they are protesting. I can’t imagine you learn very much with that sort of attitude.


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> I thought that the politics thread was making me hate people I otherwise would like because of their dumb political opinions.
> 
> I now realize those people are just assholes in regards to everything and I probably wouldn’t like them anyway. I can’t imagine just being in constant sniping mode. Nobody was even talking to tjf and he comes out of nowhere to try to blast me in this thread. It’s amazing.


It’s the internet. 
Folks aren’t talkin. 
Folks just post stuff. 
Hopefully somethin of interest for others.
As for soapbox political stuff, there’s more than enough of that BS flyin, in my highly esteemed worthless opinion.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> I like coach. I even enjoyed his crotchety old school conservative look at the world. I dunno, I like people that have different ways of seeing things and independent opinions. It keeps life interesting and there’s always room to learn from others. It would be a shame to go through life being so sure of my own opinions that I become hateful towards people that are different. That’s often the funniest thing about extreme lefties. They can be just like the ones that they are protesting. I can’t imagine you learn very much with that sort of attitude.


I like Coach Z too. I met him at WF once. Good dude. I really wish he'd come back and give us an update on how lil Z's racing season went. Ski racing is something I never got into but wish I had.


----------



## Harvey

I guess blame me for the disappearance of Coach. It was my 2 word post that sent him packing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I guess blame me for the disappearance of Coach. It was my 2 word post that sent him packing.


Meh, we're all adults. He should've just dealt with it. Like the rules say, fight your own battles.


----------



## Harvey

Hence the "I guess." Not really taking the blame.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Hence the "I guess." Not really taking the blame.


Do I have to guess what the two words were?
Could use them for future fightin on internet BS battlefields.
Too much winning or is it whining?


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'm fully vaxed and I'm happy about that


----------



## tirolski

COVID-19 survivors have significant neurological effects in ~1/3 of peeps, new study reports. 








						The Lancet Psychiatry: Largest study to date suggests link between COVID-19 infection and subsequent mental health and neurological conditions
					

One in three COVID-19 survivors received a neurological or psychiatric diagnosis within six months of infection with the SARS-CoV-2 virus, an observational study of more than 230,000 patient health records published in The Lancet Psychiatry journal estimates. The study looked at 14 neurological...



					www.eurekalert.org


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm fully vaxed and I'm happy about that


I am too
But when you watch the news it’s still all doom and gloom


----------



## MC2

jasonwx said:


> I am too
> But when you watch the new it’s still all doom and gloom


Easy solution to that problem.

I used to like watching the news because I liked to “be informed”. But I think that people should realize that the news isn’t in the business of informing us anymore. They are in the business of trying to scare the shit out of us so that we’ll watch more news.


----------



## jasonwx

MC2 said:


> Easy solution to that problem.
> 
> I used to like watching the news because I liked to “be informed”. But I think that people should realize that the news isn’t in the business of informing us anymore. They are in the business of trying to scare the shit out of us so that we’ll watch more news.


Totally agree
Fam is moving forward
Booked a week in Montana and Wyoming in June


----------



## D.B. Cooper

MC2 said:


> I used to like watching the news because I liked to “be informed”. But I think that people should realize that the news isn’t in the business of informing us anymore. They are in the business of trying to scare the shit out of us so that we’ll watch more news.


Absolutely, 100% right.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> I am too
> But when you watch the news it’s still all doom and gloom


Screw the news. People were congratulating each other yesterday after being fully vaxed. It was a good feeling.


----------



## Kingslug

There is no news anymore ...its all opinions


----------



## Milo Maltbie

TV news, especially cable news, is nothing but sensationalism. You need to read writers who make logical arguments based on verifiable evidence. Reading actual logically constructed arguments activates the smart part of your brain. Watching TV does the opposite.

You need to ignore anonymous interweb posters. (I know that's ironic, but after several late night drunken rants about clients I need to remain incognito.) Avoid Google and Facebook, which use algorhythms to steer you to things you like to hear, but in reality they are only giant confirmation bias machines.



mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Kingslug said:


> There is no news anymore ...its all opinions


So true 
The really good reporters just read the news. It doesn't matter to me what their opinion is of said news.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> So true
> The really good reporters just read the news. It doesn't matter to me what their opinion is of said news.


Ugh
Just got a txt from good friend. Big time heart surgeon in cali
He said the vaccine isn’t a pass. We are still in the weeds. 
I don’t know what the f to do


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> especially cable news


This. My wife watches like regular old ABC news and it is much more reasonable.

The thing about cable... if people didn't watch it they wouldn't do it. So we all have some responsibility.


----------



## Harvey

jasonwx said:


> Ugh
> Just got a txt from good friend. Big time heart surgeon in cali
> He said the vaccine isn’t a pass. We are still in the weeds.
> I don’t know what the f to do


I am confused. What are you saying.


----------



## jasonwx

Harvey said:


> I am confused. What are you saying.


He said no airl travel unless absolutely necessary


----------



## Harvey

jasonwx said:


> He said no airl travel unless absolutely necessary


CDC has been saying this for weeks. Why does this one guy saying it bum you out more?


----------



## jasonwx

I have been friends with him for 50 yrs


----------



## Harvey

Harvey said:


> I am confused. What are you saying.


----------



## gorgonzola




----------



## Low Angle Life

Harvey said:


> CDC has been saying this for weeks. Why does this one guy saying it bum you out more?


Stay out of nightclubs in Miami beach and avoid spitting in others mouths when possible. Other than that make responsible decisions and go on living your life. It is misguided to think that just because we are a year in and vaccines are readily available that we are "out of the woods". We are all just lab rats in this global experiment from here on out.


----------



## Brownski

jasonwx said:


> I have been friends with him for 50 yrs


I guess my question is what does he say is the danger for a vaccinated person getting on an airplane? And I’m sure he’s a smart guy but what is he basing it on? His gut? Better safe then sorry?


----------



## Harvey

Really easy and organized. 

I'm in my 15 minute waiting period.


----------



## Brownski

Which one did you get?


----------



## G.ski

Brownski said:


> Which one did you get?


lol to me this is like asking if you prefer sativa or indica.


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

I'm getting my second shot on Sunday and I can only think of a couple of times in my life when I was more excited to have somebody stick something in me.


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> I have been friends with him for 50 yrs


You said he is a heart surgeon. What is his background in infectious diseases and clinical trials? Or the ways in which ventilation and air flow impact the likelihood of COVID-19 transmission? (no answer expected)

My ski buddy who is a family physician and professor at a well known medical school decided back in the fall it was safe to fly. With proper precautions of course. I've known him for 20 years, my husband's family has known his family for 50+ years. His father was a physician. We've done three ski trips that involved flying this season.

My other ski buddy who has a Ph.D. in immunology has flown several times this season. Has tested negative after every trip using the Vault At Home PCR test. Needed to test because the state of residence had travel restrictions.

I researched the risk of community spread at airports and in airplanes for months before making my decision to go ahead with the Dec ski trip. For what it's worth, I feel more comfortable in any airport than in many places that are within an hour of my house. Meaning places that I haven't gone to and won't go for a while longer.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> View attachment 8974
> 
> Really easy and organized.
> 
> I'm in my 15 minute waiting period.


When I first looked at the pic I figured it was a new social distanced place to wait b4 getting on a plane. 
Then figured it out to be what it really is a pic of. 
I don’t get out much.


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> You said he is a heart surgeon. What is his background in infectious diseases and clinical trials? Or the ways in which ventilation and air flow impact the likelihood of COVID-19 transmission? (no answer expected)
> 
> My ski buddy who is a family physician and professor at a well known medical school decided back in the fall it was safe to fly. With proper precautions of course. I've known him for 20 years, my husband's family has known his family for 50+ years. His father was a physician. We've done three ski trips that involved flying this season.
> 
> My other ski buddy who has a Ph.D. in immunology has flown several times this season. Has tested negative after every trip using the Vault At Home PCR test. Needed to test because the state of residence had travel restrictions.
> 
> I researched the risk of community spread at airports and in airplanes for months before making my decision to go ahead with the Dec ski trip. For what it's worth, I feel more comfortable in any airport than in many places that are within an hour of my house. Meaning places that I haven't gone to and won't go for a while longer.


He was passing advice along from his infectious disease friends. 
I’m sure airplanes and airports are fine
But you have to leave the airports.


----------



## Campgottagopee

As mentioned earlier I got my second shot on Tuesday. Yesterday I was TKO'd, it knocked me right in the dirt. I had the chills and felt like my head was in a vise, to the point I had to stay home. I'm at work now but feel like I was dragged behind a truck. I'm still glad to be fully vaxed.


----------



## XTski

MarzNC said:


> You said he is a heart surgeon. What is his background in infectious diseases and clinical trials? Or the ways in which ventilation and air flow impact the likelihood of COVID-19 transmission? (no answer expected)
> 
> My ski buddy who is a family physician and professor at a well known medical school decided back in the fall it was safe to fly. With proper precautions of course. I've known him for 20 years, my husband's family has known his family for 50+ years. His father was a physician. We've done three ski trips that involved flying this season.
> 
> My other ski buddy who has a Ph.D. in immunology has flown several times this season. Has tested negative after every trip using the Vault At Home PCR test. Needed to test because the state of residence had travel restrictions.
> 
> I researched the risk of community spread at airports and in airplanes for months before making my decision to go ahead with the Dec ski trip. For what it's worth, I feel more comfortable in any airport than in many places that are within an hour of my house. Meaning places that I haven't gone to and won't go for a while longer.





jasonwx said:


> He was passing advice along from his infectious disease friends.
> I’m sure airplanes and airports are fine
> But you have to leave the airports.


Good advice Jas,


----------



## Harvey

Harvey said:


> View attachment 8974
> 
> Really easy and organized.
> 
> I'm in my 15 minute waiting period.



This hit me pretty good yesterday. Not even close to real covid, but I did feel like shit.

Today I am feeling better.

Tomorrow choosing between earning 'em at Belle, Hunter or Gore.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> I had the chills and felt like my head was in a vise,



This. For me, the real covid was head in a vise, brutal for three straight days. Chills too, and not fun, but the headache was the killer.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> This. For me, the real covid was head in a vise, brutal for three straight days. Chills too, and not fun, but the headache was the killer.


That's crazy. I honestly can't imagine feeling that way for 3 day's, that's brutal. My reaction from the shot was monumentally worse than when I had covid. I felt like I had a head cold when I had covid, that's it.
This thing is so weird how it affects everyone so differently.


----------



## XTski

Campgottagopee said:


> As mentioned earlier I got my second shot on Tuesday. Yesterday I was TKO'd, it knocked me right in the dirt. I had the chills and felt like my head was in a vise, to the point I had to stay home. I'm at work now but feel like I was dragged behind a truck. I'm still glad to be fully vaxed.





Campgottagopee said:


> That's crazy. I honestly can't imagine feeling that way for 3 day's, that's brutal. My reaction from the shot was monumentally worse than when I had covid. I felt like I had a head cold when I had covid, that's it.
> This thing is so weird how it affects everyone so differently.


Damn! what shots are you guys getting?. are we talking a ski vice? ? or an Acme style heavy ass metal vice?? I don’t mind when pain spontaneously happens, but pre-meditated pain! Not so much


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> That's crazy. I honestly can't imagine feeling that way for 3 day's, that's brutal. My reaction from the shot was monumentally worse than when I had covid. I felt like I had a head cold when I had covid, that's it.
> This thing is so weird how it affects everyone so differently.



It doesn't make sense (to me) that someone who had it would have a worse reaction to the vax, but I have been hearing some stories that back that up.


----------



## tirolski

Everyones immune system is different. 
It’s why transplanted parts are watched for rejection even from close relatives.
It’s related to how yer born, your age, your gene’s, what ya’ve been exposed to and whatcha eat. Quite a mix of conditions.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Met a doctor at Gore today and he told us that his experience was that esome of the worst reactions to the vaccine are among people who were previously infected. I don't know enough about to even question him.

mm


----------



## Brownski

A doctor told me that anti bodies react to the vaccine as they would to the virus and the bad reaction is most likely due to that. Essentially the anti bodies and the vaccine are having a little battle inside of you. He was a basic MD, though, not a specialist so I’m not sure that’s a high level explanation. It’s also possible he was dumbing it down for my little brain of course.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Dang
Pausing the J&J shot
We didn't need this to happen


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> Dang
> Pausing the J&J shot
> We didn't need this to happen


Redic
6 pp out of 6 million
More po have worse reactions to advil


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Redic
> 6 pp out of 6 million
> More po have worse reactions to advil



Correct
That's what I meant by we didn't need this now, it's ridiculous.


----------



## Kingslug

Oh..can't wait for this. I don't want to get one but the side effects can't be worse than the harassment from my wife if I don't get it...I told her if I die from it..wel..at least I tried..under duress..but I tried.


----------



## MarzNC

Pausing is normal during the early phases of a vaccine rollout. Happens during an active clinical trial too. Essentially the research into safety issues (side effects) is on-going once a vaccine or drug is approved for use in the general public. Warnings about side effects are updated as needed.

Having the eyes of the world on a new vaccine is not normal.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> Having the eyes of the world on a new vaccine is not normal.



Good point


----------



## ScottySkis

I getting 2 nd vaccine shot on April 21 in Orange County
They told it was going on 420 email was day after


----------



## Brownski

For what it’s worth, came across this


----------



## tirolski

It was fun while it lasted. Stimulus-Schwimulus. 








						Update: Onondaga County restaurant gift card program sells out in five hours
					

Program doubles customers' money and could give a $1 million boost to the local dining industry




					www.syracuse.com


----------



## ScottySkis

28 hours after vaccine shot and card I feeling fine I know few people on Facebook having bad side effects I think my constant drinking water helps big time


----------



## Brownski

I got shot #2 today. We’ll see how it goes I guess


----------



## MarzNC

ScottySkis said:


> 28 hours after vaccine shot and card I feeling fine I know few people on Facebook having bad side effects I think my constant drinking water helps big time


Staying well hydrated is definitely a good idea from everything I've read.

Got Moderna shot #1 this afternoon. Was easy to get an appointment thru my health care system, which is a large system that serves most of North Carolina with a concentration in central NC. NC opened up to every 16+ while I was skiing at Alta.


----------



## Face4Me

Moderna #2 yesterday afternoon for me too ... So far ... So good ... No problems ... Arm isn't anywhere near as sore as it was after #1.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Face4Me said:


> Moderna #2 yesterday afternoon for me too ... So far ... So good ... No problems ... Arm isn't anywhere near as sore as it was after #1.


It's so amazing how these shots effect everyone so differently. My wife had a reaction to her first shot, and I had one on my second shot.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> It's so amazing how these shots effect everyone so differently. My wife had a reaction to her first shot, and I had one on my second shot.


I was tired as hell the day after the first shot and I’m tired as hell again today


----------



## Endoftheline

I was one of the luckier ones, Phizer(already had both) shots and other than a minor sore arm for a day, absolutely no side effects. My sister, in her 50s had minor side effects after the second shot(tired, chills, low fever) but only for about 12 hours. My mom in her mid 90s had no side effects at all.


----------



## gorgonzola

on a roll, no reaction to Pfizer 1 or 2. Signed up for shingles #1 next Thursday 

oh yea and donating blood Monday morning, I'm like a frikkin' human pin cushion.... does anybody even know what that means anymore?


----------



## MarzNC

Other than sleeping for about 11 hours last night instead of the usual 7-8, not really having much in the way of side effects after Moderna #1. May be something to the idea that older people (over 60) have less of a reaction.

My husband, age 66, didn't have much reaction to Pfizer #1 or #2, other than being a bit more tired for about a day.



gorgonzola said:


> on a roll, no reaction to Pfizer 1 or 2. Signed up for shingles #1 next Thursday


That's the shot that gave me a really sore arm!


----------



## gorgonzola

yea my wife was sick as a dog after her 2nd shingles shot a few weeks ago


----------



## x10003q

2 modernas and zero problems.


----------



## Tjf1967

gorgonzola said:


> on a roll, no reaction to Pfizer 1 or 2. Signed up for shingles #1 next Thursday
> 
> oh yea and donating blood Monday morning, I'm like a frikkin' human pin cushion.... does anybody even know what that means anymore?


Aren't those the heavy set women that have a lot of sex?


----------



## jasonwx

gorgonzola said:


> yea my wife was sick as a dog after her 2nd shingles shot a few weeks ago


i heard the 2nd shingles shot is a beast..
i only had a moderate reaction after the 2nd pfizer..


----------



## G.ski

jasonwx said:


> i heard the 2nd shingles shot is a beast..
> i only had a moderate reaction after the 2nd pfizer..


My first shot of Shingrix made my arm sore for a day or two but the second shot I had no noticeable reaction to.


----------



## Harvey

I had no side effects from shingles vax. My first was on the same day a my first ever flu vax too, last fall.

You don't hear much about shingles vaccine hesitancy. I googled it and couldn't find too much either.

What all do we get vaxxed for when we are little kids? I think you can't enter school without it.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> You don't hear much about shingles vaccine hesitancy. I googled it and couldn't find too much either.


Apples and oranges. The current shingles vaccine is only recommended for adults age 50 and over. Shingles is not contagious. I would guess that most people who get the a shingles vaccination are encouraged by their physician.

Very few people die as a result of complications from shingles, something like 100 in a year in the U.S. Most of those cases are elderly people who have other medical issues as well. It hurts like hell. I had it as a young adult. Was lucky that the doctor at student health made a quick diagnosis. My mother had it in her 70s. Took quite a while to get over it completely.


----------



## Sbob

Shingles has been a nightmare for my wife. She requested a shot but was turned down because she wasn’t 50. Ironically she worked in the vaccine division of the company that makes it. Well two bouts later she has Transgeminal Neuralgia. It’s an ongoing nerve irritation on the left side of her face. She has no idea of what triggers flare ups. Comes and goes, sometimes by a simple cool breeze on her face . If she has a flare up she has to take extra meds which wipes her out. 
Get the shot if you can!


----------



## Harvey

Sorry to hear that Sbob. I never thought about the vax and my doc really pushed me so I did it. Not even sure which one I got. After reading about it today, it looks like one vax is much better than the other.

Covid is rising dramatically worldwide:





The biggest issue is India, where they are at the levels we were at in the winter.


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

India is a mess. What a tragedy.


----------



## Harvey

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> India is a mess. What a tragedy.


There's a ripping black market for Remdesivir the special expensive med they gave pres Trump. Somehow they have vaxxed less than 2% of the country,

I don't see how we can hide from it. Can we?


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I don't see how we can hide from it. Can we?


Who is we and what do you mean by hide?


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Covid is rising dramatically worldwide:


What I don't quite understand is why Canada is such a mess. They have more cases than Dec2020-Jan2021. ND is offering to vaccinate Canadian truck drivers who are crossing the border regular as essential workers.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Who is we and what do you mean by hide?


I mean I don't think anyone has beaten it unless everyone has beaten it.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I mean I don't think anyone has beaten it unless everyone has beaten it.


Certainly makes opening up international travel unlikely as long as so many countries are struggling with community spread and ineffective vaccination efforts.

Japan still plans to hold the Summer Olympics. But numbers there aren't looking good in a few metropolitan regions.


----------



## ScottySkis

I glad I got my 2 vaccine shots I know maybe 30%of om Facebook who absolutely reuse to get it I understand where they coming from I glad I personally got vaccine shots


----------



## saratogahalfday

MarzNC said:


> What I don't quite understand is why Canada is such a mess. They have more cases than Dec2020-Jan2021. ND is offering to vaccinate Canadian truck drivers who are crossing the border regular as essential workers.
> 
> View attachment 9166


Canada's issue is they simply don't have any vaccine. Like most drugs, they rely on us to supply them with what they need, and the US hasn't been sharing COVID vaccines with them yet. I have family in Toronto.


----------



## saratogahalfday

ScottySkis said:


> I glad I got my 2 vaccine shots I know maybe 30%of om Facebook who absolutely reuse to get it I understand where they coming from I glad I personally got vaccine shots


Just out of curiosity, how do you "understand where they're coming from" by refusing to get vaccinated?


----------



## Campgottagopee

saratogahalfday said:


> Just out of curiosity, how do you "understand where they're coming from" by refusing to get vaccinated?


Not speaking for Scotty, but I understand it too. I have several close friends who haven't gotten vaxed yet. It's a personal choice. 
What I don't understand is people who will walk right by multiple signs saying masks required without a mask. I've run into this several times, mainly from the Amish. I find that very disrespectful to the business owner who is trying to run his business during a pandemic.


----------



## Harvey

saratogahalfday said:


> Canada's issue is they simply don't have any vaccine. Like most drugs, they rely on us to supply them with what they need, and the US hasn't been sharing COVID vaccines with them yet. I have family in Toronto.



This hadn't occurred to me thanks for pointing it out. I'm guessing that is the issue in India too. Plus their population is huge. 

The way I understand it, the US taxpayer played a significant role in the speed of vax development by guaranteeing the cost and reducing the risk for big pharma so I get that we would be first in line for it. But asap we've got to be all in on getting the rest of the world vaxxed.

I read an article yesterday that said that there is a lot of vax resistance in Texas, so the vaccine availability is high. Mexicans and other Central Americans, affluent mostly and some middle class, are traveling to Texas and showing up a clinics and getting shots. Those that can afford it are staying a month to get their second shot. I didn't know that you could just travel to do it.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Not speaking for Scotty, but I understand it too.



I get it too. It's one of the reasons I was ok "waiting my turn." I knew I would get it, I feel it's my patriotic duty, and I also have a hard time going against my doctors strong recommendations. But I also thought a few extra months to let 100 million go before me was ok. I know a lot of people who were on eight or ten lists trying, or working the system in other ways, to get it asap. I've got high BP and could probably have used that to get vaxxed sooner.


----------



## Sbob

Well my wife did a bunch of research on the vaccine and her TJN issue . It seems that a high number of people who suffer from her disease have large flare ups and they are ongoing . She works at home and is electing for now not to get the vaccine.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> This hadn't occurred to me thanks for pointing it out. I'm guessing that is the issue in India too. Plus their population is huge.


Their population is huge but they make their own vax and have the Astra-Zeneca jab approved as well. More folks vaxed there than here albeit smaller % of pop. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56345591


----------



## MarzNC

saratogahalfday said:


> Canada's issue is they simply don't have any vaccine. Like most drugs, they rely on us to supply them with what they need, and the US hasn't been sharing COVID vaccines with them yet. I have family in Toronto.


I understand the delay in vaccinations in Canada. That's the issue in Australia as well since they are relying mostly on A-Z.

What I'm more surprised at for Canada is the sharp increase in detected cases in the last month or two. After all, W-B was forced to shut down early. But then the same is happening in many European countries.


----------



## Campgottagopee

We have a guy here at work who had covid about a month ago. Did his quarantine and all that. Last week he felt very weak and dizzy. He ended up in the ICU, can't walk, talk without stuttering, or even feed himself due to his shaking. Still like that today and he's heading to rehab. Doc's say it's all due to having covid. Scary shit.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Last week he felt very weak and dizzy. He ended up in the ICU, can't walk, talk without stuttering, or even feed himself due to his shaking. Still like that today and he's heading to rehab. Doc's say it's all due to having covid. Scary shit.


Covid-19 is neurological as much or more than is respiratory. Long haulers more so.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Covid-19 is neurological as much or more than is respiratory. Long haulers more so.


By the Fall 2020, it was pretty well recognized by medical researchers that COVID-19 was not a respiratory disease but instead involved the vascular system. Cardiovascular issues, neurological, and vascular issues in the feet and legs are all possible. It's a really weird disease.









Is COVID-19 Primarily a Heart and Vascular Disease?


Infection preventionists need to be able to articulate to those who feel that the young are safe just because their fatality rate is extremely low, that even in this age group there are major concerns regarding long-term consequences of this virus.



www.infectioncontroltoday.com


----------



## Harvey

I feel like my memory is problematic. I am all about lists now. Lists with checks √ at work.

I can remember my best ski days though


----------



## Green light

Harvey said:


> I feel like my memory is problematic now. I am all about lists now. Lists with checks √ at work.
> 
> I can remember my best ski days though


Ski days are all that matter


----------



## Kingslug

After a certain age...brain is full.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> I feel like my memory is problematic now. I am all about lists now. Lists with checks √ at work.


Lay off the hippie lettuce, telemark skier. ?


----------



## sig

Kingslug said:


> After a certain age...brain is full.


Unfortunately mine is full of useless information


----------



## MC2

Shamelessly copied from mcsweeneys.net:

VACCINE SIDE EFFECT, OR HAVE YOU JUST BEEN ALIVE FOR 40 YEARS?​by TALIA ARGONDEZZI​ 
Did you get the COVID-19 vaccine?​A) Yes, because I’m ready to get back out there and start partying again!
B) Yes, because I am haunted by the prospect of accidentally killing my parents or saddling my children with lifelong health complications.
Does your arm hurt?​A) Yup, right where I got the shot.
B) Yup. Both arms, actually. A few days ago, I lifted something that weighed more than two pounds.
If you have a headache, is that unusual for you?​A) Yes, it’s unusual: I rarely get headaches.
B) I have continuously recurring headaches that I escape only in sleep. Unclear whether they’re overlapping successive tension headaches, or if it’s because I’ve accumulated lowkey addictions to so many substances that at any given moment I may be experiencing withdrawal symptoms from caffeine, ibuprofen, alcohol, and/or sugar.
*You may be feeling fatigued — not ordinary tiredness, but a profound, bone-deep weariness, like you’re clothed in a suit of chainmail, or like the air has suddenly become as heavy as a truck pressing you into your couch. Even to reach your arm toward the adult sippy cup on the coffee table to briefly wet your parched lips would take the concentrated effort of 1,000 Hercules. When’s the last time you felt this way?*
A) Never.
B) At around 8:30 pm the night before I got the vaccine. And the night before that, around 8:30 pm. And the night before that, around 8:30 pm. And the night before that, around 8:30 pm. And the night before that, around 8:30 pm.
Are you experiencing muscle aches?​A) Yes, I’m so achy.
B) Yes, but to be fair, I think that’s the literal definition of what muscles are? The achy things all over your body?
Are you experiencing unusual nausea?​A) Yes, I usually only feel this nauseous from hangovers due to my awesome social life.
B) I am nauseous, but it could be because I ate some fried food yesterday. Fried food upsets my stomach. So does spicy food. So does too much fiber. So does not enough fiber. So do fresh fruits, especially citrus. So does too much sugar — also artificial sugar. Also, dairy upsets my stomach. And tomatoes. But yeah, I am experiencing nausea.
Are you experiencing brain fog?​A) Yes! I just said, “Water, can you hand me my Dan?” when of course I meant, “Dan, can you hand me my water?” LOL.
B) Sure, but that could be because of my age. I’m… oh, wow, I always forget exactly how old I am, haha. Somewhere between 38 and like 56, I think? Let’s see, my kid is — what? 8? — and we had her when I was… wait, was I 35 or 45? Shoot. I remember thinking at the time that I was too old to be having a kid, but would I think that when I was 35? Or 45? Anyway, what was the question again?
- - -
ANSWER KEY​*Mostly A’s:* You have mild side effects from the COVID-19 vaccine. They should subside within the next day or so.
*Mostly B’s:* You’ve been alive for at least 40 years. Congratulations on getting the vaccine, which comes with a free 24-hour excuse for feeling like the complete fucking garbage you always do


----------



## Brownski

Pretty good, MC. Original composition?


----------



## marcski

Harvey said:


> I feel like my memory is problematic. I am all about lists now. Lists with checks √ at work.
> 
> I can remember my best ski days though



You had that issue before Covid. (Among others).


----------



## Campgottagopee

marcski said:


> You had that issue before Covid. (Among others).


QFT


----------



## Campgottagopee

I went my buddies bowling alley after work. Had 2 shots and 2 beers with him then went home. We were celebrating not having to order food ?


----------



## Jon951

Best was when I went out after dinner one night during the restriction to have a few beers. Bartended said I had to choose between a deviled egg or a meatball. I replied, "I don't do deviled eggs and I just ate 5 meatballs for dinner (honest). Bartender put a dirty plate in front of me and served me my beer.


----------



## gorgonzola

damn love me some deviled eggs! some dive bars still have the big jar of pickled hard boiled eggs on the back bar...


----------



## Campgottagopee

gorgonzola said:


> damn love me some deviled eggs! some dive bars still have the big jar of pickled hard boiled eggs on the back bar.



You just described our gun club
I'll be heading there today for a celebration of life --- think I'll have me one of them there pickled eggs for lunch


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> You just described our gun club
> I'll be heading there today for a celebration of life --- think I'll have me one of them there pickled eggs for lunch


I feel sorry for your wife tonight


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> I feel sorry for your wife tonight


Right! Pickled eggs and cheap beer  ?


----------



## gorgonzola

mine too, having a leftover falafel with brussels sprout salad for lunch!
Maybe I'll borrow @Ripitz ' moniker for the day


----------



## sig

Campgottagopee said:


> Right! Pickled eggs and cheap beer  ?


I don't eat eggs. i prefer that red piece of sausage in the jar next to the pickled eggs. i am sure whatever chemicals make it turn red enhance the flavor. yum


----------



## Kingslug

Life's too short for cheap beer.


----------



## Kingslug




----------



## jasonwx

Kingslug said:


> Life's too short for cheap beer.


Not hijack the thread but I would take a ice cold PBR over all that micro crap


----------



## Brownski

jasonwx said:


> Not hijack the thread but I would take a ice cold PBR over all that micro crap


Was about to say the same thing about Utica Club


----------



## x10003q

I always bought Matt's Lager when I could find it.


----------



## marcski

Kingslug said:


> View attachment 9199


Just looking at this makes me gag!


----------



## tirolski

marcski said:


> Just looking at this makes me gag!


Red 40 and yellow 6 on casing with red 40 and red 3 in solution of Mechanically separated chicken, pork and pork hearts passed USDA inspection.
Wonder what the “flavorings” is or is it a trade secret?
Might be better to just roll with eggs.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Not hijack the thread but I would take a ice cold PBR over all that micro crap


Word


----------



## Campgottagopee

Kingslug said:


> View attachment 9199


Mystery meat!


----------



## gorgonzola

tirolski said:


> Red 40 and yellow 6 on casing with red 40 and red 3 in solution of Mechanically separated chicken, pork and pork hearts passed USDA inspection.
> Wonder what the “flavorings” is or is it a trade secret?
> Might be better to just roll with eggs.


and some beet juice for color!


----------



## Kingslug

If you want a good beer that gets the job done in 1 can..I found this..from CT 9%\


----------



## Green light

Kingslug said:


> View attachment 9199


Makes a vegan drool


----------



## Campgottagopee

Kingslug said:


> If you want a good beer that gets the job done in 1 can..I found this..from CT 9%\
> View attachment 9200


Who drinks 1 beer?
Lol


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Who drinks 1 beer?
> Lol


Ya gotta got go thru 1 to get to get to more than 1.
It’s how old math works.


----------



## Kingslug

well..drink 2 then...I unfortunately had 3..and woke up on the couch at 1 AM...sneaky beer....


----------



## Brownski

Kingslug said:


> If you want a good beer that gets the job done in 1 can..I found this..from CT 9%\
> View attachment 9200


I had to put on my reading glasses and zoom in to find the size. I thought maybe it was one of the oversized cans like Fosters uses. I always hated oversized packaging cause I drink too slow. It’s body temperature and full of backwash by the time I get through the last swallow. 3 pints at 9.1% will do the trick though.


----------



## sig

not a fan of strong beer. ruins the taste. beer is for the long haul. if i want to get loaded I'll drink whiskey.


----------



## raisingarizona

MC2 said:


> Easy solution to that problem.
> 
> I used to like watching the news because I liked to “be informed”. But I think that people should realize that the news isn’t in the business of informing us anymore. They are in the business of trying to scare the shit out of us so that we’ll watch more news.


Fear can be addictive. In most people’s mundane, day to day lives they rarely get to exercise the fight or flight response.

I have to agree, tv news is sleazy and they are after viewers and advertising dollars, not creating informative and accurate information. It’s all shock and awe.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> I had to put on my reading glasses and zoom in to find the size. I thought maybe it was one of the oversized cans like Fosters uses. I always hated oversized packaging cause I drink too slow. It’s body temperature and full of backwash by the time I get through the last swallow. 3 pints at 9.1% will do the trick though.


Yup, I remember drinking 40 ounces in high school and feeling sick trying to drink the last few ounces.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> Who drinks 1 beer?
> Lol


I often have 8 “just one more’s”


----------



## Kingslug

tThis stuff doesn't taste strong..Thats why its sneaky. And you don't feel like you drank a loaf of bread like some IPS's do.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> I often have 8 “just one more’s”


Yep, then switch to vodka


----------



## Scrundy

I ♥️ BEER


----------



## Kingslug

BEER=GOOD....


----------



## tirolski

Kingslug said:


> BEER=GOOD....


The foam on the top acts like soap but tastes much better.


----------



## Kingslug

I drink the IPA's right out of the can..keeps the flavor in..or something like that. Heady Topper even says it on the can. And never let it get warm...ever...


----------



## Harvey

Pfizer vaccine for adolescents to get FDA authorization; much-anticipated decision opens door for teens 12-15


The Food and Drug Administration is likely to authorize the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for adolescents within the next week, according to the New York Times and CNN.



www.usatoday.com


----------



## Sbob

Kingslug said:


> If you want a good beer that gets the job done in 1 can..I found this..from CT 9%\
> View attachment 9200


I'm loving the labels on all these pint IPA's . Peel em off and stick em on your skis!!!


----------



## XTski

Harvey said:


> Pfizer vaccine for adolescents to get FDA authorization; much-anticipated decision opens door for teens 12-15
> 
> 
> The Food and Drug Administration is likely to authorize the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for adolescents within the next week, according to the New York Times and CNN.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


They will have it in nasal spray form, maybe pills bye the end of the year, that might work better, could push the people hesitant to wait longer


----------



## Harvey

Seemed like lots of compliance with new guidance out on the trails today. No masks on anyone except the kids really. Six feet still in play, in practice.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Campgottagopee said:


> We have a guy here at work who had covid about a month ago. Did his quarantine and all that. Last week he felt very weak and dizzy. He ended up in the ICU, can't walk, talk without stuttering, or even feed himself due to his shaking. Still like that today and he's heading to rehab. Doc's say it's all due to having covid. Scary shit.


To date not much has changed. He's still trying to learn how to walk with a walker. This dude isn't old, maybe late 30's. He's in good shape too. Big BMX rider.
You read about this shit but man it's pretty scary stuff.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> To date not much has changed. He's still trying to learn how to walk with a walker. This dude isn't old, maybe late 30's. He's in good shape too. Big BMX rider.
> You read about this shit but man it's pretty scary stuff.


Covid brain fry? It gets some like that. 30 something seems crazy young though.


----------



## wonderpony

Campgottagopee said:


> To date not much has changed. He's still trying to learn how to walk with a walker. This dude isn't old, maybe late 30's. He's in good shape too. Big BMX rider.
> You read about this shit but man it's pretty scary stuff.


----------



## wonderpony

That just sucks. I hope he gets better soon.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> Covid brain fry? It gets some like that. 30 something seems crazy young though.


I'm not sure what the Doc's are calling it. Certainly sounds like it though.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Guess proof is in the pudding








Masks off: Officials reevaluating mandates for indoor mask use


Leading public health figures suggested over the weekend that it was time to reevaluate requirements for wearing masks indoors as COVID-19 cases continue to decline and more than half of all American adults have received at least one dose of a vaccine. On CBS's "Face the Nation" Sunday, former...




cnycentral.com


----------



## CNY Skier

Had a sales meeting at another company today and was relieved that no mask wearing was required...almost seemed normal for a change. Nine people sitting around a table discussing sales strategies, naked faces smiling, frowning, etc. I left the meeting with some hope that we'll get back to the _Old Normal_ sometime soon.

On another matter, the thought of giving children an _experimental_ vaccine sickens me.


----------



## jasonwx

CNY Skier said:


> Had a sales meeting at another company today and was relieved that no mask wearing was required...almost seemed normal for a change. Nine people sitting around a table discussing sales strategies, naked faces smiling, frowning, etc. I left the meeting with some hope that we'll get back to the _Old Normal_ sometime soon.
> 
> On another matter, the thought of giving children an _experimental_ vaccine sickens me.


Give me a break.. M rna vac has been in development for almost 10 yrs... here's a blurb about the polio vac...this was 70 yrs ago. I think we test better today..


the first effective polio vaccine was developed in 1952 by Jonas Salk and a team at the University of Pittsburgh that included Julius Youngner, Byron Bennett, L. James Lewis, and Lorraine Friedman, which required years of subsequent testing. Salk went on CBS radio to report a successful test on a small group of adults and children on 26 March 1953; two days later, the results were published in _JAMA_.[57] Leone N. Farrell invented a key laboratory technique that enabled the mass production of the vaccine by a team she led in Toronto.[65][66] Beginning 23 February 1954, the vaccine was tested at Arsenal Elementary School and the Watson Home for Children in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.[67]


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> Had a sales meeting at another company today and was relieved that no mask wearing was required...almost seemed normal for a change. Nine people sitting around a table discussing sales strategies, naked faces smiling, frowning, etc. I left the meeting with some hope that we'll get back to the _Old Normal_ sometime soon.



It's interesting that TX did away with mask mandates back in March and their numbers have done nothing but decline, just like ours.
As someone who wears glasses, I am so ready to be done with masks.


----------



## tirolski

The vid may effect eye nerves too. 
neuro-ophthalmological manifestations of novel coronavirus​


----------



## MC2

?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

CNY Skier said:


> ... the thought of giving children an _experimental_ vaccine sickens me.


In some sense everything in life is an experiment, but there's a difference between "emergency" and "experimental." COVID vaccines were approved on an emergency basis, but that doesn't imply that safety criteria were changed or ignored. The emergency process allowed the steps of the approval process to proceed concurrently, rather than the normal finish one, wait for approval, go on to the next, repeat. The stepwise process was developed because each step is costly, and going one step at a time limits possible losses. The emergency process was only possible because the government guaranteed much of the cost. 
I don't know of any evidence that mRNA vaccines are riskier than other vaccines, but the risk of a COVID infection, or even spreading an infection, seem much worse than the risk of chicken pox, or even measles, which children are already required to be vaccinated for. What's the risk of losing one or two years of in-person school and socialization? 
Even if children don't typically get serious COVID disease, as long as there is a large number of unvaccinated people it is only a matter of time before a vaccine-resistant variant emerges that rips through elimentary schools the way the flu did in 1958. That's where where ignorant vaccine fear will take us.

mm


----------



## Brownski

Yeah, I’m gonna get my 14 year old the vaccine as soon as possible. New or emergency isn’t the same as experimental, as MM said. People need to learn how to assess risk again.


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> It's interesting that TX did away with mask mandates back in March and their numbers have done nothing but decline, just like ours.
> As someone who wears glasses, I am so ready to be done with masks.


There are studies being done on a regular basis in the UK using antibody tests to get a sense of the what percentage of people have antibodies related to fighting off COVID-19. Those can be detected whether a person has had COVID-19, perhaps without knowing it, or has been vaccinated. The estimates are between 40-60% with some regional differences for the testing period in late April.

The detected case numbers in TX in 2020 and early 2021 were quite high. The likelihood is that the actual numbers were undoubtedly much higher given the surges in hospitalization and death numbers. I would guess that the prevalence of antibodies may be higher there than in NY and New England. Vaccination is not the only way to build up to "herd immunity" within a community. It's the best way to achieve the goal without a lot of people getting sick with COVID-19 and high numbers of avoidable deaths.


----------



## Brownski

One of the things I am most frustrated with in the US is that there’s been zero effort to determine how many unvaccinated people have the antibodies. I understand that we don’t 100% understand the level of immunity they provide but I haven’t seen anybody make a convincing case that they don’t provide some level of immunity. Even a vaccinated person MIGHT still get it but the likelihood is low enough for me to ignore.


----------



## marcski

Brownski said:


> One of the things I am most frustrated with in the US is that there’s been zero effort to determine how many unvaccinated people have the antibodies. I understand that we don’t 100% understand the level of immunity they provide but I haven’t seen anybody make a convincing case that they don’t provide some level of immunity. Even a vaccinated person MIGHT still get it but the likelihood is low enough for me to ignore.


I've read there are like 10,000 confirmed cases of a vaccinated person getting Covid. Those are damn good odds considering there are what? 150-200 million people vaccinated.


----------



## Brownski

marcski said:


> I've read there are like 10,000 confirmed cases of a vaccinated person getting Covid. Those are damn good odds considering there are what? 150-200 million people vaccinated.


Yes
Exactly
Hindsight is 20/20 of course but I think England’s approach to vaccination will ultimately prove to be the right one.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Yeah, I’m gonna get my 14 year old the vaccine as soon as possible. New or emergency isn’t the same as experimental, as MM said. People need to learn how to assess risk again.



I don't have kids, thank gawd for that, but if I did I would listen to my family Doc and go on their advise.


----------



## Campgottagopee

One thing I can't wrap my head around is the outrage, by some, over schools requiring vaccination for enrollment. I mean, this isn't anything new. Schools have required vaccinations for what, 100 years or so?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> I don't have kids, thank gawd for that, but if I did I would listen to my family Doc and go on their advise.


Vaccines are arguably the most important achievement of medical science. Anyone who doesn't believe in science has no business in the medical professions. I've been asking all my doctors if they will get vaccinated. I'm gonna fire all the ones who won't vaccinate, even if their practice has nothing to do with infectious diseases.

mm


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> One thing I can't wrap my head around is the outrage, by some, over schools requiring vaccination for enrollment. I mean, this isn't anything new. Schools have required vaccinations for what, 100 years or so?


Agree!

Perhaps people are getting hung up on the word "required." I'm pretty sure there are provisions for most, if not all, schools that allow for exceptions for the standard childhood vaccinations. The vaccination rate has never been 100% for all kids for any vaccine. Not all of the unvaccinated kids are homeschooled.

With COVID-19, there was the option for a few months of a "medical exemption" related to mask usage people who boarded planes. But didn't take long for all the airports and airlines to decide that it was clear too many people were taking advantage of the loophole and the risk to their employees was too high. Plus to risk of a potential outbreak (2+ cases) or a cluster (5+ cases) being traced back to a flight. Had that ever happened, the U.S. airline industry would've completely come to a halt for weeks or months.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> One of the things I am most frustrated with in the US is that there’s been zero effort to determine how many unvaccinated people have the antibodies. I understand that we don’t 100% understand the level of immunity they provide but I haven’t seen anybody make a convincing case that they don’t provide some level of immunity. Even a vaccinated person MIGHT still get it but the likelihood is low enough for me to ignore.


There were a few antibody studies done in 2020, but once things went out of control in the late fall that seemed to be relegated to back burner status. I think most of the studies were for very small populations. Would've been nice to do proper sampling on a few of the large college campuses that actually had dorms open and in-person classes. With comparison to colleges that went completely virtual for at least a full semester.

Here's a report from Nov 2020 that was based on "convenience" samples from July through September 2020. About 175,000 samples were analyzed from all 50 states, DC, and Puerto Rico. The situation as of March 2021 after the surges in Nov-Jan was probably quite different in many areas of the U.S.









						Estimated SARS-CoV-2 Seroprevalence in the US
					

This cross-sectional study examines the prevalence of persons with SARS-CoV-2 antibodies across the US and changes from July to September 2020.




					jamanetwork.com


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Yeah, I’m gonna get my 14 year old the vaccine as soon as possible.


Us too.

The kids at our school seem take the science behind all of it at face value, don't question it, wear their masks, want a vaccine, whatever. 

To me they don't seem too worried about the future, they just want to get back to "dating." 

Now the gas shortage is different... "omg dad am I going to be able to get to gymnastics?!?"


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> To me they don't seem too worried about the future, they just want to get back to "dating."
> 
> Now the gas shortage is different... "omg dad am I going to be able to get to gymnastics?!?"



That's excellent!


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Yes
> Exactly
> Hindsight is 20/20 of course but I think England’s approach to vaccination will ultimately prove to be the right one.


Are you thinking about focusing on giving 1st doses to as many people as possible and delaying 2nd doses? Keep in mind that the size of the population, having a national distribution process (by the UK National Health Service), and the mix of vaccines are quite different in the UK. In addition to Pfizer and Moderna (starting in April), the UK based their vaccination program on Astra-Zeneca, for which the second dose doesn't happen in 3-4 weeks any way.









What Covid vaccines does the UK have and which are in the works?


As Valneva recruits volunteers for final stage trials of its vaccine, here is the current state of play in Britain




www.theguardian.com





Population of the UK is about 67 million. There are about 15 million New England, 30 million in the mid-Atlantic (includes NY, VA, WV), plus another 26 million for NC and SC. Combined that's about the equivalent population. Total for the US is 330 million.


----------



## Brownski

Yes. I’m sure it would be harder for us to implement but we also have much greater resources then the UK. Unless I’m mistaken they also prioritized people that hadn’t had covid yet.


----------



## Tjf1967

I think we did it properly. Now getting the nay sayers to get it done. A lot will jump on board when they get the you can't come to ... If you don't have a shot. The others will just get covid and hopefully get over it.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Yes. I’m sure it would be harder for us to implement but we also have much greater resources then the UK. Unless I’m mistaken they also prioritized people that hadn’t had covid yet.


Hmm, hadn't heard that. From what I can find the eligibility was based on age and underlying medical conditions for the general public. Health care and essential workers were first priority.

There were U.S. states that emphasized getting seniors over 65 vaccinated well before opening up to younger age bracket. Maine went with age only and didn't bother with all the other possible categories. Some states worked from early on to get people without transportation vaccinated in their homes. As with everything with the pandemic, lots of variation between regions and states, or even between counties.









Covid booster: Who can get another jab this autumn?


Over-50s can get another Covid booster, as can younger people who are at higher risk, and NHS staff.



www.bbc.com










COVID-19 vaccination first phase priority groups







www.gov.uk


----------



## Campgottagopee

Alrighty now!!!









CDC: Fully vaccinated people can largely ditch masks indoors


WASHINGTON (AP) — In a move to send the country back toward pre-pandemic life, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Thursday eased indoor mask-wearing guidance for fully vaccinated people, allowing them to safely stop wearing masks inside in most places. “Today is a great day for...




cnycentral.com


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Alrighty now!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC: Fully vaccinated people can largely ditch masks indoors
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — In a move to send the country back toward pre-pandemic life, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Thursday eased indoor mask-wearing guidance for fully vaccinated people, allowing them to safely stop wearing masks inside in most places. “Today is a great day for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnycentral.com


That's good news, but I wonder how the science deniers respond. I assume they will just stop wearing masks as well. I'm good with letting anti-vaxxers put each other at risk, but what about unvaccinated children? The best outcome here is that the effectiveness of vaccination becomes obvious without a major outbreak.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> but what about unvaccinated children?



Won't that be left up to the parents?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Won't that be left up to the parents?


Children under 12 are not eligible. OTOH maybe idiot parents will improve the gene pool.

mm


----------



## wonderpony

*HOORAY!!!! * CDC says no more masks for us who have been fully vaccinated, except in certain circumstances!

*  !!!!!!!!!!! *(Harvey, you need a happy dance icon!)

I am looking forward to in person yoga and an actual life again!


----------



## Campgottagopee

wonderpony said:


> *HOORAY!!!! * CDC says no more masks for us who have been fully vaccinated, except in certain circumstances!
> 
> * !!!!!!!!!!! *(Harvey, you need a happy dance icon!)
> 
> I am looking forward to in person yoga and an actual life again!


Yeeee haw 
Now we just need the OK from Cuomo. ?


----------



## wonderpony

Campgottagopee said:


> Yeeee haw
> Now we just need the OK from Cuomo. ?


Pish posh. We should be good.


----------



## Campgottagopee

No mo masks starting tomorrow 

I'm pretty psyched about that


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> No mo masks starting tomorrow
> 
> I'm pretty psyched about that


I still think masks should be in place for ever on planes and other mass transit

nothing worse then sitting in the cigar tube while someone is hacking away in the seat behind you


----------



## Kingslug

At work..still masks..on trains..still masks. My house..no masks...Guess thats something.


----------



## jasonwx

Kingslug said:


> At work..still masks..on trains..still masks. My house..no masks...Guess thats something.


What do you mean? I don’t have to wear a mask in my house. ?


----------



## Kingslug

At the moment its the only place..except my short walk to the trains every day. Well at the racetrack almost no one wore them.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I wear a mask wherever it's asked to wear one, and I'll still comply with that. At work, we're ditching them as are most other businesses (that I know of) are too in the area.


----------



## G.ski

Many business owners I speak to here will still require mask usage regardless of vaccination status. It's all well and good that the CDC says it's OK to not wear masks indoors for vaccinated people but there is no standard for how to prove vaccination status. So while the CDC looks like heroes their guidance really means nothing. Pretty typical government "guidance" that leaves the policing to individual businesses. Useless IMO.

Now we will get to hear vaccinated people complaining about wearing masks instead of the science deniers.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'm sure many businesses will require masks. I'll do my best to avoid them, if I can. Not out of spite, or anything like that, I wear glasses and can't stand these masks. 

I/we followed the science to wear them now I'll follow the science to not wear them.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

G.ski said:


> Many business owners I speak to here will still require mask usage regardless of vaccination status. It's all well and good that the CDC says it's OK to not wear masks indoors for vaccinated people but there is no standard for how to prove vaccination status. So while the CDC looks like heroes their guidance really means nothing. Pretty typical government "guidance" that leaves the policing to individual businesses. Useless IMO.
> 
> Now we will get to hear vaccinated people complaining about wearing masks instead of the science deniers.


I think the CDC is throwing unvaccinated people under the bus a little. They've given up on herd immunity and they'll let the science deniers infect each other while the rest of us get back to our lives safely. That's OK for me but it's tough on young children and others who can't be vaxxed for medical reasons. I'm hoping that hoping that the benefits of the vaccine become so obvious that the whole anti-vax ignorance disappears before some vaccine resistant child friendly variant develops.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> I wear a mask wherever it's asked to wear one, and I'll still comply with that. At work, we're ditching them as are most other businesses (that I know of) are too in the area.


That's pretty much where I am. I wear a mask whenever not wearing would make others uncomfortable. I think of it as a courtesy rather than a constitutional crisis. OTOH I try avoid places where I need to wear a mask. 

mm


----------



## marcski

Milo Maltbie said:


> That's pretty much where I am. I wear a mask whenever not wearing would make others uncomfortable. I think of it as a courtesy rather than a constitutional crisis. OTOH I try avoid places where I need to wear a mask.
> 
> mm



As others have said, I am still not comfortable going inside somewhere with others that I don't know. There seem to just be too many variables, so at least for the time being, I think I'm still going to be wearing masks when inside. When I am outside, I never wore a mask; it wasn't/isn't hard to stay 6' + away from others. I pretty much don't go inside anywhere other than a market or other stores where I really need something. (Which is the way I normally live other than perhaps restaurants, a movie theater, baselodges and vacations. (I know, I know, I'm boring, what can I say).


----------



## G.ski

I get my second shot in a week. By early June I'll be considered vaccinated. 

I got vaccinated solely to stop people from asking why I'm not vaccinated. I don't want to be bothered with those questions or the people who ask them. I don't mind wearing a mask if requested and I won't avoid places that require them. I spend the majority of my time outdoors where I have never worn a mask.

So the CDC "guidance" does not really affect me. I only brought it up to show how inept and useless such "guidance" is and how our government abdicates responsibility to the private sector to do the dirty work. Asking private enterprise to play COVID cops just means we all wear masks probably forever in some cases. And this is a major reason why many will choose to not get vaccinated. It's a case of "why bother?" for those folks. 

The messaging here is an abomination. I spent my career in sales and the COVID vaccination pitch I've seen so far is the classic "buy it asshole" approach.


----------



## Brownski

I don’t get the angst. Take care of your own shit and stop worrying about everybody else. If a business wants you to wear a mask, wear it. It’s not complicated


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I don’t get the angst. Take care of your own shit and stop worrying about everybody else. If a business wants you to wear a mask, wear it. It’s not complicated



Man I wish more people would live by this.


----------



## Harvey

I have no idea if CDC is right or wrong, but I'm going with the guidance to some extent. 

I'm no longer wearing a mask outdoors as I have been all pandemic. When I was riding my bike, if I was pushing hard, I'd pull it down below my nose, and pull it up if others were around. Now I'm riding maskless and it's a lot of fun. It reminded me of the time I hurt my knee 30 years ago and I couldn't walk. When I could finally walk again it was awesome, and I still appreciate walking more to this day. Simple pleasure.

Skiing I was wearing a mask at all times, with the helmet, taking it on and off was a PITA. When bumps season came around I couldn't get enough air while bumping, so I ditched my mask as I would drop in, back on when I got to the lift.

Indoors, yea I'm not indoors in public much, but I'm still wearing an n95 when I am. It's not like I think I will get covid again, although I'm sure it's a possibility. It just seems to make sense. I am still seeing most everyone around here do the same. I want the unvaxed to wear a mask indoors, so I am doing it too.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> When bumps season came around I couldn't get enough air while bumping, ...


Just got push off when ya hit the top and don’t absorb the bumps.


----------



## gorgonzola

^ needs to add a crotch grab in there


----------



## marcski

G.ski said:


> I get my second shot in a week. By early June I'll be considered vaccinated.
> 
> I got vaccinated solely to stop people from asking why I'm not vaccinated.


You didn't want to get a vaccine that is 95 % effective from getting a virus that could kill you and which you may never know where or when you picked it up to protect yourself? You only got it so people wouldn't ask you why you didn't get it? Perhaps you didn't have an answer to that question?


----------



## Campgottagopee

marcski said:


> virus that could kill



In all fairness the vaccine could kill you as well


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I want the unvaxed to wear a mask indoors, so I am doing it too.


For me I don't care if they do or if they don't. My understanding is that the only ones they can hurt is themselves? Here at work we're going on the honor system, can't think of any other way to do it. We do have some employees that aren't vaxed and they're required to wear masks.


----------



## Brownski

A few people taking advantage isn’t likely to cause a huge outbreak, right? 60% of adults have gotten at least one shot plus all the people that got sick and recovered... it adds up. Even for unvaccinated people, the risk has to be way way down at this point.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> A few people taking advantage isn’t likely to cause a huge outbreak, right? 60% of adults have gotten at least one shot plus all the people that got sick and recovered... it adds up. Even for unvaccinated people, the risk has to be way way down at this point.


Right, and especially this time of year. We saw a massive dip last year at this time.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> In all fairness the vaccine could kill you as well


Really? Is there any evidence of that? Probably my biggest risk related to vaccination was the two 400 mile round trips I took through the Dacks to get the shot. You can get killed on the road.

mm


----------



## marcski

Campgottagopee said:


> In all fairness the vaccine could kill you as well


How many people died from the Vax? How many people had the vax? The #'s are clearly beyond compare in favor of getting the vax.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> For me I don't care if they do or if they don't. My understanding is that the only ones they can hurt is themselves? Here at work we're going on the honor system, can't think of any other way to do it.


At the Y today they took my temperature and asked for my vax card when I checked in.
Leaving the science deniers to infect each other is a cold policy, but I'm OK with it if the rest of us can get back to normal. Sadly, that puts people who can't be vaxxed for medical reasons and young children at greater risk. My grandson is a chick magnet but I won't be taking him to any bars anytime soon.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Really? Is there any evidence of that? Probably my biggest risk related to vaccination was the two 400 mile round trips I took through the Dacks to get the shot. You can get killed on the road.
> 
> mm


Sure there is


----------



## Campgottagopee

marcski said:


> How many people died from the Vax? How many people had the vax? The #'s are clearly beyond compare in favor of getting the vax.


Not disagreeing
I got my vax ASAP
Just saying it can happen. Just like covid put a coworker of mine in rehab learning to function as a human again.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Sure there is


Care to provide a citation? Innernet rumors don't count.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Care to provide a citation? Innernet rumors don't count.
> 
> mm


 https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc...deaths-may-be-linked-to-jj-covid-vaccine.html


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc...deaths-may-be-linked-to-jj-covid-vaccine.html


Just got back from food shopping and the Home Depot 
Everyone still had a mask on.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc...deaths-may-be-linked-to-jj-covid-vaccine.html


So 3 deaths out of 9 million shots
So approx .00000027 % chance of dying 
?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc...deaths-may-be-linked-to-jj-covid-vaccine.html


So 3 deaths out of 16 million? Pretty much the random probably, and it doesn't prove causation. Still less dangerous than driving through the Adiirondacks.

mm


----------



## Tjf1967

jasonwx said:


> So 3 deaths out of 9 million shots
> So approx .00000027 % chance of dying
> ?


got to be in it to win it. MM go get yourself a J&J shot


----------



## Milo Maltbie

jasonwx said:


> So 3 deaths out of 9 million shots
> So approx .00000027 % chance of dying
> ?


Or maybe that's just the random probability of a blood clot. Less dangerous than driving though the Adirondacks. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tjf1967 said:


> got to be in it to win it. MM go get yourself a J&J shot


I got the Pfizer, but I'd take the J&J in a NY minute.

mm


----------



## Tjf1967

Milo Maltbie said:


> I got the Pfizer, but I'd take the J&J in a NY minute.
> 
> mm


me to


----------



## Brownski

To be fair, nobody said there was a high chance of dying from it. It was apparently alarming enough to somebody to pause distribution for a week or so.


----------



## Harvey

I'm not a scientist but I play one on TV.

I'm assuming that the big risk is India (and other unvaxed countries with big outbreaks) where it could  create a breakthrough variant. I'm hoping we SELL (vs give) the vax to other countries at a fair price, and people jump on it.

This is worth checking out, under the "What We Are Still Learning" section:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> To be fair, nobody said there was a high chance of dying from it. It was apparently alarming enough to somebody to pause distribution for a week or so.


It's a dilemma for policy makers. If they pause distribution, it creates the suspicion that it's unsafe. If they don't pause, it creates the impression that they are not paying attention. It's a lose/lose situation.

mm


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> To be fair, nobody said there was a high chance of dying from it. It was apparently alarming enough to somebody to pause distribution for a week or so.


The worst kind of argument is: “This [statistically nearly impossible] thing is dangerous, and [some dumb schmuck/some overintrusive government body/etc.] was concerned enough about it to do [overreactionary bullshit] so it’s a valid thing to bring up”

We don’t have to talk about lightning strikes or shark attacks or people drowning in bathtubs just because some dumb shmuck did some stupid shit, so we can pretty easily dismiss the “but someone might have died from a vaccine (unless the blood clot was from something completely unrelated to the vaccine)” talk.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> So 3 deaths out of 9 million shots
> So approx .00000027 % chance of dying
> ?


Right
I've learned to never say never


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> To be fair, nobody said there was a high chance of dying from it. It was apparently alarming enough to somebody to pause distribution for a week or so.


Exactly
And as Marz said apparently it's common practice for them to be paused, it's that the worlds eyes are on this now so it's "a big deal".
I wanted to get the J&J shot simply because it's 1 and done.


----------



## Brownski

MC2 said:


> We don’t have to talk about lightning strikes or shark attacks or people drowning in bathtubs just because some dumb shmuck did some stupid shit,


Agreed but To be fair, every time I take my surf kayak out in the actual ocean, all I can think about is sharks so I try to be understanding when people get obsessed with low probability/ high consequence events. It’s not how I live my life but I’m all about building bridges here, know what I mean? I’m into listening and understanding, not arguing. We’re all the same on this Earth. Amiright?


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> Agreed but To be fair, every time I take my surf kayak out in the actual ocean, all I can think about is sharks so I try to be understanding when people get obsessed with low probability/ high consequence events. It’s not how I live my life but I’m all about building bridges here, know what I mean? I’m into listening and understanding, not arguing. We’re all the same on this Earth. Amiright?


Sounds like you agreed with me, then spent the rest of the post starting an argument, so no, I don’t know what you mean.


----------



## Brownski

I’m just trying to listen and understand


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> I’m just trying to listen and understand


Here’s an example:

This [Skiing] thing is dangerous, and [ski area management] was concerned enough about it to [put up orange fencing in various places] so my idea to [put orange fencing down the sides of every trail and around every obstacle] is perfectly valid

We could spend all day arguing about it, or we could not waste our time and do literally anything else with our lives. By engaging with the argument (“well, skiing *really is* dangerous, and I *do* see orange fencing occasionally), you’re just getting involved in something that should have been dismissed in its entirety from the beginning because of the shitty conclusion that it leads to.

Putting orange fencing down every trail or not getting vaccinated because of [whatever bullshit] are shitty destinations and I usually don’t start in on journeys to shitty destinations (especially when they are based on shitty premises).


----------



## Brownski

Yeah, alright


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Yeah, alright


Exactly


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> It’s not how I live my life but I’m all about building bridges here, know what I mean


I do
My uncle got hit by lightning while playing golf -- true story
I still play golf
So does he


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> I do
> My uncle got hit by lightning while playing golf -- true story
> I still play golf
> So does he



What happened to him?

Statistically, now, I'd think he would be in good shape.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> What happened to him?
> 
> Statistically, now, I'd think he would be in good shape.



He and my dad were playing when the horn sounded for everyone to come in due to a storm in the area. They dumped their clubs under a tree, while walking back to the clubhouse lightning had struck the ground near them both, It knocked my uncle to the ground, unconscious. My dad hightailed it to the clubhouse for help. When they got back he was alert and had zero clue what had happened. They took him to the hospital to get checked out, found nothing too major. He did have some burns. Doc said he was one luck mo-fo.


----------



## Brownski

When I was in my twenties, I rented an apartment in a dump of a building in the Bronx. One day, I was taking a shower and the shower head came off and hit me in the head. The pipe had corroded to the point where the water pressure was enough to break it. Pretty low probability event. I don’t know anybody else who e er experienced it. Well, a year later I moved into a dumpy little cottage in Mohegan Lake. The exact same thing happened again. I was astounded. What are the odds of seeing that twice? I don’t know. I still take showers- almost every day.


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> He and my dad were playing when the horn sounded for everyone to come in due to a storm in the area. They dumped their clubs under a tree, while walking back to the clubhouse lightning had struck the ground near them both, It knocked my uncle to the ground, unconscious. My dad hightailed it to the clubhouse for help. When they got back he was alert and had zero clue what had happened. They took him to the hospital to get checked out, found nothing too major. He did have some burns. Doc said he was one luck mo-fo.


Amazing . I had a former Dean at the college now deceased who was a cracker jack , a great guy he is now deceased . Poor guy WAS HIT TWICE with lighting,once on beach on Lake Ontario ' the other incident while mowing his lawn . He survived both with little physical effects 


BUT We broke his balls unmercifully for the rest of his life .

his name was .......WRIGHT , and when the students were not around we'd bust on him calling him "Dean WRONG. ? :usually with the tag line " ah hell you aint' been RIGHT since you got lit up"

.. I worked with some REAL ball breakers , great peeps but serious ball busters. Trust me he got his shots back on us many times ??


----------



## marcski

Warp daddy said:


> Amazing . I had a former Dean at the college now deceased who was a cracker jack , a great guy he is now deceased . Poor guy WAS HIT TWICE with lighting,once on beach on Lake Ontario ' the other incident while mowing his lawn . He survived both with little physical effects
> 
> 
> BUT We broke his balls unmercifully for the rest of his life .
> 
> his name was .......WRIGHT , and we'd bust on him calling Dean WRONG whenever the students were not around .. I worked with some REAL ball breakers , great peeps but serious ball busters


You fit right in with them! ?


----------



## Warp daddy

True dat Markie ?


----------



## gorgonzola

Campgottagopee said:


> He and my dad were playing when the horn sounded for everyone to come in due to a storm in the area. They dumped their clubs under a tree, while walking back to the clubhouse lightning had struck the ground near them both, It knocked my uncle to the ground, unconscious. My dad hightailed it to the clubhouse for help. When they got back he was alert and had zero clue what had happened. They took him to the hospital to get checked out, found nothing too major. He did have some burns. Doc said he was one luck mo-fo.


shoulda just held up his two iron, even god can't hit a two iron....

(rimshot)


----------



## Warp daddy

gorgonzola said:


> shoulda just held up his two iron, even god can't hit a two iron....
> 
> (rimshot)


Thats why i bought a 2 hybrid ?


----------



## Campgottagopee

gorgonzola said:


> shoulda just held up his two iron, even god can't hit a two iron....
> 
> (rimshot)


WORD!


----------



## wonderpony

I went to the Farmer's Market (outside) and Walgreens last night. Everyone was wearing masks, except for one guy who had his mask around his neck. I kind of think that he may just have forgotten to pull it up. 

I will probably continue to wear my mask indoors for a little bit to see how the numbers go. Classes at both Cornell and Ithaca College ended last week, which were probably accompanied by a few parties. Both schools are both hosting in person commencements on Memorial Day weekend. In order to attend Cornell's, you have to have either proof of vaccine or a negative COVID test prior to commencement. Each student is given two guest tickets, but you know that there will be other people coming along for the celebration, even if they can't attend the ceremony. 

Even though I am fully vaccinated with Pfizer, I think I am still going to be a little bit careful for a while, at least inside and near crowds.


----------



## G.ski

marcski said:


> You didn't want to get a vaccine that is 95 % effective from getting a virus that could kill you and which you may never know where or when you picked it up to protect yourself? You only got it so people wouldn't ask you why you didn't get it? Perhaps you didn't have an answer to that question?


No, I don't want to hear from folks like you so I got the vaccination.


----------



## x10003q

gorgonzola said:


> shoulda just held up his two iron, even god can't hit a two iron....
> 
> (rimshot)


This is a classic, but the club in the version I was told was a 1 iron.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> This is a classic, but the club in the version I was told was a 1 iron.


A Lee Trevino classic!


----------



## Warp daddy

wonderpony said:


> I went to the Farmer's Market (outside) and Walgreens last night. Everyone was wearing masks, except for one guy who had his mask around his neck. I kind of think that he may just have forgotten to pull it up.
> 
> I will probably continue to wear my mask indoors for a little bit to see how the numbers go. Classes at both Cornell and Ithaca College ended last week, which were probably accompanied by a few parties. Both schools are both hosting in person commencements on Memorial Day weekend. In order to attend Cornell's, you have to have either proof of vaccine or a negative COVID test prior to commencement. Each student is given two guest tickets, but you know that there will be other people coming along for the celebration, even if they can't attend the ceremony.
> 
> Even though I am fully vaccinated with Pfizer, I think I am still going to be a little bit careful for a while, at least inside and near crowds.


Wise move WP


----------



## marcski

G.ski said:


> No, I don't want to hear from folks like you so I got the vaccination.


I believe you proved my point.


----------



## JohnF

Campgottagopee said:


> In all fairness the vaccine could kill you as well


Incorrect


----------



## poindexter

wonderpony said:


> I went to the Farmer's Market (outside) and Walgreens last night. Everyone was wearing masks, except for one guy who had his mask around his neck. I kind of think that he may just have forgotten to pull it up.
> 
> I will probably continue to wear my mask indoors for a little bit to see how the numbers go. Classes at both Cornell and Ithaca College ended last week, which were probably accompanied by a few parties. Both schools are both hosting in person commencements on Memorial Day weekend. In order to attend Cornell's, you have to have either proof of vaccine or a negative COVID test prior to commencement. Each student is given two guest tickets, but you know that there will be other people coming along for the celebration, even if they can't attend the ceremony.
> 
> Even though I am fully vaccinated with Pfizer, I think I am still going to be a little bit careful for a while, at least inside and near crowds.


CMR and I will both be at Cornell's graduation, with our Excelsior passes and admission tickets. We are grateful that the students are able to have an in-person ceremony this year. As of now, I think they are still requiring masks, even though the ceremony is outside. I wonder if they will change that given the revised NYS guidelines. The dashboard indicates that 75% of the on-campus population is now fully vaccinated.


----------



## MarzNC

Went with my husband to an outdoor gathering this week. It was the annual catered picnic for the local Garden Club with perhaps 75 people. Average age of the attendees was probably over 60. Also included a few young adults who received scholarships in 2020-21. The only people with masks were the staff of the catering company. From what I know of the long time members, probably over 95% of the people who came got vaccinated. Perhaps 100% had at least the first shot since NC opened up to all adults on April 7.

At one point we were watching an informal presentation so everyone was gathering around to see. I decided to move back a bit, mostly to be. little farther away from the young adults. They are very responsible university students and probably vaccinated but . . .


----------



## MarzNC

Stopped by Target to pick up a couple things today (Raleigh, NC). No more signs on the doors about a mask requirement. Still have a hour first thing in the morning on a couple weekdays for the "most vulnerable." Presumably that includes seniors or people with underlying medical conditions.

All the staff were still masked. Most of the customers were masked as well. Not particularly crowded. Probably didn't see more than 10 people without masks, mostly adults who are probably under 40 plus a couple of teens with family.


----------



## CNY Skier

marcski said:


> You didn't want to get a vaccine that is 95 % effective from getting a virus that could kill you and which you may never know where or when you picked it up to protect yourself? You only got it so people wouldn't ask you why you didn't get it? Perhaps you didn't have an answer to that question?


[Just logged in on a whim and was surprised that the covid conversation was still going on]

Have any of you actually read the clinical trial studies from the vaccine makers? Out of curiosity I _did _read them and was surprised by the results. It is true that they have roughly 95% efficacy, but if you look at the test results you might conclude that in the bigger picture they don't do much. I think that it was 16/15,000 that got the shot got Covid while 160/15,000 that took the placebo got Covid. That's a 10x reduction but in reality the numbers are this: Get the shot and your chances of getting Covid are 0.1067%, don't get the shot and chances of getting Covid are 1.067%.

Let's say, based on an average of all age groups, that your odds of dying from Covid (if you get it) is 2%. If you get the shot then your odds of dying are 0.02134%; if you don't get the shot then your odds are 0.2%. Of course you would have to factor in the increased odds due to comorbidities and age.

In any case, you are taking a vaccine that uses new (untested) technology to reduce your chances of dying from0.02134% to 0.2%. What if the vaccine has long term effects that greatly increase future health problems? According to VAERS, around 4,500 people have died from taking these vaccines so far.

On a related subject, I was stunned when I walked into a grocery on Thursday (in NYS) and realized that I was the only person (other than my cashier) that was wearing a mask. The signs (to wear a mask) were gone but everyone was wearing one.


----------



## Tjf1967

Ah bending numbers to support your narrative.


----------



## Face4Me

CNY Skier said:


> According to VAERS, around 4,500 people have died from taking these vaccines so far.


No ... not "died from taking these vaccines" ... "died after being vaccinated". There's quite a difference.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Probability isn’t that simple. If most people vaccinate your chance of exposure is reduced as well as your chance of getting sick once exposed. If no one vaccinates everyone is eventually exposed. So 2% is 7 million Americans. Also any number of chronically sick people.
mm


----------



## MarzNC

Milo Maltbie said:


> Probability isn’t that simple. If most people vaccinate your chance of exposure is reduced as well as your chance of getting sick once exposed. If no one vaccinates everyone is eventually exposed. So 2% is 7 million Americans. Also any number of chronically sick people.
> mm


Agree.

A conclusion related to a vaccine's effectiveness or safety that should be based on a statistical analysis based on a statistical plan put in place beforehand. Context matters too. That's one reason that the FDA requires that the primary clinical trial for a vaccine is done in the U.S. Trials in other countries are supportive, but not sufficient. After a vaccine is approved, data about side effects and deaths are collected but isn't nearly as rigorous as the monitoring done of subjects in a clinical trial.

In the case of the COVID vaccines, the real world data from places where vaccination rates are over 50% are pretty clear. Fewer hospitalizations and fewer deaths within a few weeks, with most of the hospitalizations being of people who weren't vaccinated.

The new term lately is "breakthrough infections." Like what happened for the NY Yankees because all MLB teams are being tested regularly. No cluster beyond the team. Mostly no symptoms with two having mild symptoms. 









New York Yankees' breakthrough infections demonstrate the Covid-19 vaccine works. Here's why


Nine New York Yankees players or staff who were fully vaccinated caught Covid anyway. But that doesn't mean people should be worried the vaccine doesn't work.




www.cnn.com


----------



## raisingarizona

Anyone catch South Parks Vaccine Special? It’s a good one.


----------



## G.ski

marcski said:


> I believe you proved my point.


And you've proved mine.

Not good enough for you I got the vaccine, I have to want it and like it as well.
It is no wonder so many folks just don't want it at all. Who wants to be nagged and henpecked even after doing the right thing?


----------



## Campgottagopee

The number of help wanted signs around town is staggering. I don't mean those little ones in the window either. Big ass banners staked in the ground. Finding a job isn't an issue, if someone wants to work.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> The number of help wanted signs around town is staggering. I don't mean those little ones in the window either. Big ass banners staked in the ground. Finding a job isn't an issue, if someone wants to work.


Jobs are a plenty. Jobs that pay enough to actually live comfortably and pay off student loan debt? not so much.

it seems like people are getting squeezed so tightly that there’s a loss of hope for a lot of younger folks.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> Jobs are a plenty. Jobs that pay enough to actually live comfortably and pay off student loan debt? not so much.
> 
> it seems like people are getting squeezed so tightly that there’s a loss of hope for a lot of younger folks.



Too many people live way above their means, imo.


----------



## marcski

Here's another good reason to get the vax.









Michigan father of 5 dies after refusing vaccine


A Michigan family is mourning the loss of their beloved patriarch who passed from COVID-19 after refusing the vaccine. Antwone Rivers, 39, and his wife, Hollie, took COVID-19 preventative methods seriously by wearing masks and social distancing from others, but neither felt comfortable getting...




news.yahoo.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Fully vaccinated people die too, because of Covid. All we can do is keep the odds in our favor by getting vaxed.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Fully vaccinated people die too, because of Covid.


Everyone dies, sometimes right after a vaccination. I haven’t heard of vaccinated people dying of COVID although some small number have been infected. But keep spreading misinformation if you think that helps the effort.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> Too many people live way above their means, imo.


Yeah, that’s definitely a thing but let’s be honest, a lot of the available jobs out there may get your rent covered but don’t leave ya with anything for the other necessary needs. If you can barely eat or see a doctor while working a full time job that job isn’t going to have a whole lot of value to most people.

And then there’s the folks caught up in their “American nightmare”. So many people go into credit card debt because they can’t stand to fall behind the Joneses.....that’s madness!


----------



## raisingarizona

I think it’s fair to be skeptical about the vaccine. I’m not a fan of belittling them or the sort of bullying that the far left vax pushers have been doing.

I think it’s also fair for people to feel it’s important that we get vaccinated as quickly as possible to get back to normal as well.

I don’t think either of these feelings or concerns are wrong, it’s a personal decision and we probably shouldn’t be so quick to judge each other for having different opinions.

see how easy that is? We don’t have to jump to emotional reactionary responses every time someone has a different view point.

Now go watch the South Park Vaccination Special.


----------



## raisingarizona

Milo Maltbie said:


> Everyone dies, sometimes right after a vaccination. I haven’t heard of vaccinated people dying of COVID although some small number have been infected. But keep spreading misinformation if you think that helps the effort.


I haven’t heard of any specific reports but when you get your vaccine they aren’t going to tell you that you can’t still get covid and that you can’t die from it.

For me, the bottom line is that none of this is certain, we are all part of an experiment right now that no one has concrete answers for.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

raisingarizona said:


> ...they aren’t going to tell you that you can’t still get covid and that you can’t die from it.


Yup. No one is gonna try to prove the negative.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Everyone dies, sometimes right after a vaccination. I haven’t heard of vaccinated people dying of COVID although some small number have been infected. But keep spreading misinformation if you think that helps the effort.


Google it yourself this time. It's also been on National news. It's no big deal, shit happens so don't pretend it doesn't.


----------



## MarzNC

For those who want to read the last CDC report did where they summarized breakthrough cases regardless of the severity of illness:






COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC


Information and resources to help public health departments and laboratories investigate and report COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough cases.




www.cdc.gov





Here's an analysis by USA Today as a reaction to some post by someone claiming that the death rate was HIGHER for vaccinated people. Needless to say, that is false.









Fact check: Fatality rate among fully vaccinated people who developed COVID-19 misleading, experts say


An Instagram post claims COVID-19 deaths among fully vaccinated people is significantly higher compared to unvaccinated people. This is false.



www.usatoday.com





Note that Camp is not saying this at all. Just that being vaccinated is not a 100% guarantee. However, the clinical trial statistical analysis does make it clear that the risk of serious illness or death due to COVID-19 is way lower than without a vaccination. Meaning after being fully vaccinated (2 weeks after final shot). The statistical analysis plans for both Pfizer and Moderna Phase 3 trials were not designed to try to detect asymptomatic cases. The follow up is 2 years, both for side effects and to see what evidence there is for on-going immunity by looking at antibodies and T-cells.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> For me, the bottom line is that none of this is certain, we are all part of an experiment right now that no one has concrete answers for.


Yep. Actually no different than taking any approved drug at the recommended dose. For some people, that dose is way too high. That was always true for my mother who was petite and had a very sensitive system. I took a child's dose for common over-the-counter medication like aspirin for a long time, well into my 20s.

The good news is that hospitalization and death numbers are dropping fast in all states overall. However, there are pockets where vaccination rates are relatively low and the hospital numbers are actually going up. Fair to say those are mostly people who were not vaccinated.

A sad case in Michigan is making headlines nationwide. Although given that MI didn't open up to all adults until April 5, that would probably have been too late for this man.









Michigan Father of 5 Dies After Choosing Not to Receive the COVID Vaccine


Antwone Rivers, 39, was described as "a superhero dad" of five kids, ranging in age from one to 13




people.com


----------



## marcski

MarzNC said:


> For those who want to read the last CDC report did where they summarized breakthrough cases regardless of the severity of illness:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC
> 
> 
> Information and resources to help public health departments and laboratories investigate and report COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an analysis by USA Today as a reaction to some post by someone claiming that the death rate was HIGHER for vaccinated people. Needless to say, that is false.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact check: Fatality rate among fully vaccinated people who developed COVID-19 misleading, experts say
> 
> 
> An Instagram post claims COVID-19 deaths among fully vaccinated people is significantly higher compared to unvaccinated people. This is false.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note that Camp is not saying this at all. Just that being vaccinated is not a 100% guarantee. However, the clinical trial statistical analysis does make it clear that the risk of serious illness or death due to COVID-19 is way lower than without a vaccination. Meaning after being fully vaccinated (2 weeks after final shot). The statistical analysis plans for both Pfizer and Moderna Phase 3 trials were not designed to try to detect asymptomatic cases. The follow up is 2 years, both for side effects and to see what evidence there is for on-going immunity by looking at antibodies and T-cells.


I read Moderna is saying that you're going to need a booster 8-9 months after the 1st shot. 









Pfizer, Moderna: 1st COVID-19 vaccine recipients could need booster by September


The CEOs of both Moderna and Pfizer said the first recipients of their companies’ COVID-19 vaccines could require a booster dose as soon as September, dependent upon authorization by the CDC and the FDA.




www.fox4news.com


----------



## MarzNC

marcski said:


> I read Moderna is saying that you're going to need a booster 8-9 months after the 1st shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer, Moderna: 1st COVID-19 vaccine recipients could need booster by September
> 
> 
> The CEOs of both Moderna and Pfizer said the first recipients of their companies’ COVID-19 vaccines could require a booster dose as soon as September, dependent upon authorization by the CDC and the FDA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox4news.com


_" . . .on May 19, both the CEO of Moderna and the CEO of Pfizer said that depending on the research being done on the efficacy and longevity of the vaccines, a booster shot could be needed between either eight to 12 months after the recipient’s initial two-dose vaccine series. 

But the decision is mostly dependent upon health officials at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Food and Drug Administration to approve booster shots, Pfizer told FOX TV Stations in an emailed statement. 
. . ."_

The way I read the article, all the vaccine makers are preparing people for the idea of booster shots. The increased number of variants spreading around the world is something they have been assessing for a while. Of course, what they want from a business standpoint is full FDA approval in 2021 based on the clinical trial data for the studies begun in 2020. At least, that's what the bean counters would like. 

In general, the timing for vaccinations depends on the disease and how a human body reacts to the vaccine. We get flu shots every year because of the big number of flu variations of concern. For shots given to children for contagious diseases like measles or mumps, the schedule is completely different. With the more recent shingles vaccine, it's two shots for older adults and no need for a booster after that.


----------



## MarzNC

A bit more info related to the idea of the timing of booster shots for Pfizer and Moderna. For what it's worth, my ski buddy who is an immunologist thinks a year is probably the most likely timeframe for vaccine immunity to be at a good level.









Covid-19 vaccine boosters may be necessary at some point. Here's what you need to know | CNN


Vaccine makers are preparing for a next possible phase of the Covid-19 vaccine rollout: booster doses.




www.cnn.com




_" . . .
Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told CNN the bottom line is "we don't know." 
"We're preparing for the eventuality that we might need boosters, but I think we've got to be careful not to let the people know that inevitably, x number of months from now, everyone's going to need a booster. That's just not the case," Fauci, chief medical adviser to President Joe Biden, said at a Washington Post Live event. "We may not need it for quite a while."

Scientists at a number of companies that make Covid-19 vaccines have also predicted the need for boosters within a year -- but the scientific community is not in widespread agreement on this.

"We're making extrapolations" from incomplete data, Fauci told The Washington Post on Thursday.
. . ."_









Moderna and Pfizer are already developing COVID-19 vaccine boosters. Do we need a third shot?


It looks like Americans may need to roll up their sleeves for a COVID-19 booster shot, though vaccine makers and federal officials are still trying to detect...




www.marketwatch.com




_" . . .
Moderna and Pfizer have recently said immunity can start to wane between six to eight months after getting the second shot of their vaccines. Dr. Peter Marks, a Food and Drug Administration official, estimates that vaccine-induced immunity is around one year, according to public remarks reported by CNBC. 

“I would project that it’s actually going to be longer than that,” Dr. Mark Mulligan, director of NYU Langone Health’s Vaccine Center, said in a May 3 interview. “It might be a year or even more. But in all likelihood, for boosting of the magnitude of the antibody levels and other immune responses, boosters will be needed.”

If SARS-CoV-2 becomes an endemic virus, as some medical experts have predicted, boosters are one way to keep people protected and also address gaps in immunity caused by powerful variants like B.1.351, first detected in South Africa, and the P.1 first identified in Brazil that are thought to lessen the effectiveness of these vaccines.

However, at this point, it’s all speculation. There is no medical consensus about whether booster shots are necessary to ensure continued protection against this virus or even what the durability of immunity to this virus is. 
. . ."_


----------



## tirolski

Long lived bone marrow plasma cells producing antibodies found in folks recovered from "mild infection".








SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans - Nature


SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells that correlate with anti-SARS-CoV-2 spike protein antibody titres in individuals who have recovered from COVID-19.




www.nature.com


----------



## Brownski

There’s something positive for a change.
Thanks


----------



## marcski

I just hope that the boosters are better at protecting from the variants as the flue shots are. It seems like the flu shots are a crap shoot whether they will be productive or not.


----------



## jasonwx

marcski said:


> I just hope that the boosters are better at protecting from the variants as the flue shots are. It seems like the flu shots are a crap shoot whether they will be productive or not.


The boosters are only for the known variants
Not much they can do with the unknown


----------



## MarzNC

marcski said:


> I just hope that the boosters are better at protecting from the variants as the flue shots are. It seems like the flu shots are a crap shoot whether they will be productive or not.


Flu shots are completely different than the vaccines geared specifically for SARS-CoV-2 from what I understand. A combination shot is created based on a deliberate selection of a few common flu strains. It's known from the start that the list is an educated guess, not a guarantee that those will be the dominant strains in the upcoming flu season.

I don't have a medical background. But have done enough reading to appreciate that how a coronavirus acts in a human body has little in common with influenza other than a few similar symptoms for people with a mild case of COVID-19. Meaning people who actually notice mild symptoms, not people who are asymptomatic.









Influenza Vaccine for the 2020-2021 Season


FDA's Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC) met in Silver Spring, Maryland, on March 4, 2020, to select the influenza viruses for the composition of the influenza vaccine for the 2020-2021 U.S. influenza season.




www.fda.gov


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> The boosters are only for the known variants
> Not much they can do with the unknown


Based on my reading, I don't think that's correct. T-cell/B-cell protection can handle variants. A coronavirus can only mutate so much.

As for developing a booster shot based on an existing vaccine, the research and clinical trials can only be done for existing variants.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> A coronavirus can only mutate so much.


Ya might have forgot there’s folks who know how to engineer changes to RNA and DNA besides what changes naturally .


----------



## Campgottagopee

Campgottagopee said:


> Same. I get headaches every. single. day. since I had covid. I never had gotten them before. I pound Tylenol like they're M&M's


No headaches, as in zero, for over a month now. 
I'll take the booster as soon as it's available.


----------



## CNY Skier

marcski said:


> Here's another good reason to get the vax.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michigan father of 5 dies after refusing vaccine
> 
> 
> A Michigan family is mourning the loss of their beloved patriarch who passed from COVID-19 after refusing the vaccine. Antwone Rivers, 39, and his wife, Hollie, took COVID-19 preventative methods seriously by wearing masks and social distancing from others, but neither felt comfortable getting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com


The above article is tragic but clearly this poor man had a major comorbidity and was already compromised. Covid19 hits those in poor health the hardest. Single point anecdotal evidence is not relevant in a public health policy discussion.

My biggest frustration with this whole thing is that no one actually responded to the data that I presented. If my analysis wrong then prove it and I will instantly change my perspective.

One member stated that I was "bending the truth to fit my narrative". What narrative are they referring to?

Another said that "dying after the shot is different than dying _from_ the shot." Yet if you say "dying from Covid is different than dying _with_ Covid" you are shunned.

Another mentioned that the cases are declining rapidly as a result of the vaccinations. If so then what caused the cases to decline last year when no one was vaccinated? Could it simply be the seasonal nature of viral airborne respiratory infections?

I suggest you all read the actual trial results presented by the Pfizer and other companies and draw your own conclusions. From what I've seen the average person won't take even five minutes to seriously study the issue.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I don't think anyone is here to change your mind. Differing opinions are what makes the world go around.


----------



## Tjf1967

I said bending the numbers to support your narrative. Using your numbers if everyone in the us was vaccinated we would have lost 60000 people instead of 575000.. If you argue we need less people and that's you reason for not getting the shot then I could understand your side. Come to think of it what exactly are you trying to say?


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> I suggest you all read the actual trial results presented by the Pfizer and other companies and draw your own conclusions. From what I've seen the average person won't take even five minutes to seriously study the issue.



I have drawn my own conclusion. My conclusion is I don't have a medical background, so knowing I'm not the smartest guy in the world I am smart enough to listen and adhere to my doctor. She's wicked smart, a farm girl, whom I trust and respect immensely. She told me to get the vaccine, so I did.


----------



## Face4Me

CNY Skier said:


> Another said that "dying after the shot is different than dying _from_ the shot." Yet if you say "dying from Covid is different than dying _with_ Covid" you are shunned.


For the record ... I didn't "say" anything ... 

You stated "According to VAERS, around 4,500 people have died from taking these vaccines". That is factually incorrect. I simply corrected your misstatement.


----------



## marcski

Face4Me said:


> For the record ... I didn't "say" anything ...
> 
> You stated "According to VAERS, around 4,500 people have died from taking these vaccines". That is factually incorrect. I simply corrected your misstatement.


For argument's sake, let's say 4500 people did die from the shot. There have been what 150-200 million people vaxed. If none got vaxed, I bet there would be a whole hell of a lot more deaths than 4500. Aren't those the numbers that count and should be compared?


----------



## G.ski

Well you can bet the pharma cartels will be mighty happy to rake in the cash if booster shots are needed.


----------



## Kingslug

Money maker for sure...


----------



## MarzNC

Vermont looks like it will reach 80% for the 1st shot soon.









						Could Vermont lift all COVID restrictions by Memorial Day? Here's what it would take.
					

Vermont is inching closer to hitting 80% of eligible residents with at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine. Could it reach its goal by Memorial Day?



					www.burlingtonfreepress.com
				




I was happy to see that seniors 65% in NC are pretty well covered. Sometimes it's hard to know what the denominator is for vaccination percentages. The NC Dashboard gives stats based on total population as well as adjusting for age. I expect the age breakdown may change to 12+ at some point. Total population for NC is about 10 million, 9th in the U.S.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Kingslug said:


> Money maker for sure...


I’m not so sure. Governments funded or guaranteed the cost of vaccine development, and they will demand reasonable pricing. There’s already talk of limiting patent rights for the vaccine. The big money in pharma is proprietary allergy medicine and boner pills. All the resources taken away from that to create vaccines means that, while they will (and should) make bank on vaccines, they’ll lose even more money that they would have made with a new boner pill. That’s a huge opportunity cost. Thank god for the greedy pharma industry.

mm


----------



## MarzNC

Any hockey fans? My husband decided to watch the 6th game between the Raleigh Hurricanes and Nashville Predators last night. He only pays attention to hockey when the Canes make it into the playoffs. Hurricanes pulled In off in overtime, 4-3 and won the series. What made me pay attention was the fact that there were thousands of fans in the in stands making lots of noise.

The effort that's gone into having 12,000 fans at the PNC Arena in Raleigh for playoff games is pretty interesting. The capacity is 19,000. The next series will bounce between Raleigh and Tampa Bay.









						How the Hurricanes pulled off having 12,000-plus fans at their playoff games
					

The Canes had three days' notice to get everything ready. The results? Cathartic pandemonium for the thousands in attendance.




					www.espn.com


----------



## CNY Skier

I appreciate all of the comments and am always open to other points of view - the older I get the less I seem to know LOL!

My main point was that some of us have drawn our own conclusions and choose _not_ to get this experimental vaccine. Early on in this pandemic it became clear to me that this virus hit the elderly, obese and other compromised individuals hard...as is typical for respiratory viruses. It also seemed that key vitamin deficiencies (B,C,D,etc.) were a problem. I believe that I got the virus in April of last year but never got tested as I didn't want to get into the "system" and be forced to lose 2-3 weeks of income (self employed) due to quarantine. In any event I started a vitamin regime and finally lost that nagging 15 lbs of excess weight. Also started eating a "clean" diet - mostly vegetarian although I'll occasionally indulge in a steak or sausage meal.

The published results from the vaccine companies are out there - here is Pfizer's:

https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download. 

This link is a bit different then the one I recall seeing but is still relevant. The vaccine seems to help but we are dealing with a "small numbers" problem; that and the fact that the participants are not being intentionally exposed to the virus (in the test) but are rather being exposed in public. From what I understand there is no available Covid-19 isolate that can be used for testing. I guess time will tell.

In any event I hope that the 2021/2022 ski season can get back to normal! Have already purchased my Ikon pass for the upcoming year!


----------



## G.ski

Investing in one's own good health is the best investment of all. I too suspect I had this virus and also did not get tested. I was lucky I guess it didn't do much to me. Never had to stay home to rest or anything like that, just an annoying cough. I thank my continuing investment in good health for that.

For that reason I do not fear it at all.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> I appreciate all of the comments and am always open to other points of view - the older I get the less I seem to know LOL!
> 
> My main point was that some of us have drawn our own conclusions and choose _not_ to get this experimental vaccine. Early on in this pandemic it became clear to me that this virus hit the elderly, obese and other compromised individuals hard...as is typical for respiratory viruses. It also seemed that key vitamin deficiencies (B,C,D,etc.) were a problem. I believe that I got the virus in April of last year but never got tested as I didn't want to get into the "system" and be forced to lose 2-3 weeks of income (self employed) due to quarantine. In any event I started a vitamin regime and finally lost that nagging 15 lbs of excess weight. Also started eating a "clean" diet - mostly vegetarian although I'll occasionally indulge in a steak or sausage meal.
> 
> The published results from the vaccine companies are out there - here is Pfizer's:https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download. This link is a bit different then the one I recall seeing but is still relevant. The vaccine seems to help but we are dealing with a "small numbers" problem; that and the fact that the participants are not being intentionally exposed to the virus (in the test) but are rather being exposed in public. From what I understand there is no available Covid-19 isolate that can be used for testing. I guess time will tell.
> 
> In any event I hope that the 2021/2022 ski season can get back to normal! Have already purchased my Ikon pass for the upcoming year!


That's a long way around the barn for saying you don't want the shot ?


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> That's a long way around the barn for saying you don't want the shot ?


Lol... But give me some of the white lighting you brewed up cause that's safe.


----------



## marcski

CNY Skier said:


> I believe that I got the virus in April of last year but never got tested as I didn't want to get into the "system" and be forced to lose 2-3 weeks of income (self employed) due to quarantine.


So you didn't want to lose 2-3 weeks of income and put others at risk instead.



CNY Skier said:


> The vaccine seems to help but we are dealing with a "small numbers" problem.


590,000 US deaths = small numbers?



CNY Skier said:


> In any event I hope that the 2021/2022 ski season can get back to normal! Have already purchased my Ikon pass for the upcoming year!



We do have some common ground here. Let's look for some more!


----------



## Ripitz

I have a friend who is liberal and one that is conservative and they both refuse to get the vaccine. They both are in good health and say they aren’t afraid of getting sick. Both are eating well, taking vitamins and distancing from others. My question is (if there was a way) can they be intentionally exposed, quarantine and move on with their lives once they receive a negative test, without getting the shot? From what I’ve heard you still need to get the shot even if you’ve had COVID. Just wondering if there could be an alternative that could be developed. I understand people’s reservations about the safety of the vaccine even though I got mine.


----------



## x10003q

CNY Skier said:


> I appreciate all of the comments and am always open to other points of view - the older I get the less I seem to know LOL!
> 
> My main point was that some of us have drawn our own conclusions and choose _not_ to get this experimental vaccine.


The vaccine is not experimental.








						CORRECTED-Fact Check- COVID-19 vaccines are not experimental and they have not skipped trial stages 
					

Correction, April 30, 2021: An earlier version of this check described the Pfizer/BioNtech, Moderna and J&J vaccines as being approved for use in the United States. This has been corrected to say these vaccines have been authorized for emergency use by the FDA. Vaccine makers...




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Ripitz said:


> I have a friend who is liberal and one that is conservative and they both refuse to get the vaccine. They both are in good health and say they aren’t afraid of getting sick. Both are eating well, taking vitamins and distancing from others. My question is (if there was a way) can they be intentionally exposed, quarantine and move on with their lives once they receive a negative test, without getting the shot? From what I’ve heard you still need to get the shot even if you’ve had COVID. Just wondering if there could be an alternative that could be developed. I understand people’s reservations about the safety of the vaccine even though I got mine.


So you know 2 people who would rather be infected and quarantined with the risk of chronic sickness or death than be vaccinated?
Interesting.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

It’s an exponential growth problem, not a small numbers problem. 
Researchers estimate the average infected person infects 3 others. That’s like the magic of compound interest, if the interest rate were 200% every two weeks. Reduce the reinfection rate by 90% by vaccines and the virus dies out. That’s how you get to normal. 
You may think you are healthy enough to survive the virus, but you are certainly not healthy enough to avoid infection or spreading it. If you live in CNY you may not know how bad it’s been in NYC fir the last year.

mm


----------



## Ripitz

Milo Maltbie said:


> So you know 2 people who would rather be infected and quarantined with the risk of chronic sickness or death than be vaccinated?
> Interesting.
> 
> mm


Yes. I’m sure I know more that won’t admit it publicly.


----------



## Harvey

There is more to it than being in good health. Some of it is genetics, and I think some believe that blood type plays a role. (Not positive about that.) Also the AMOUNT of exposure you get seems to affect your bodies ability to fight it.

Maybe I'm not in good health. I feel pretty good. Covid hammered me.


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> The vaccine is not experimental.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CORRECTED-Fact Check- COVID-19 vaccines are not experimental and they have not skipped trial stages
> 
> 
> Correction, April 30, 2021: An earlier version of this check described the Pfizer/BioNtech, Moderna and J&J vaccines as being approved for use in the United States. This has been corrected to say these vaccines have been authorized for emergency use by the FDA. Vaccine makers...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


What matters to me . . . as someone who worked in a Biostatistics department in the pharma/biotech industry for 15 years . . . is that there was a pre-approved statistical plan, complete enrollment, and the efficacy analysis was done as expected. No trials have been stopped early due to concerns about safety (side effects). What was unusual was that finding 30,000 volunteers to join a double-blinded trial where they were just as likely to get a placebo as the test vaccine didn't take very long. That's partially because the risks for someone who gets COVID-19 are still somewhat unknown, even if they are among the majority who don't have serious symptoms. More importantly the risks to the people around an asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic person may be much greater. Those people could be their family members, co-workers, or good friends.

The evidence that the approved vaccines work are pretty clear for the populations that have >50% vaccination rates, both in the UK and the US. The decrease is not only among the vaccinated people but also for the people around them. If anyone is interested I can dig up the paper published recently that studied thousands of residents in long term care facilities owned and operated by one company.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> There is more to it than being in good health. Some of it is genetics, and I think some believe that blood type plays a role. (Not positive about that.) Also the AMOUNT of exposure you get seems to affect your bodies ability to fight it.


Not only the how much exposure, but also how quickly someone who has minor symptoms realizes it might be worth getting tested. Read far too many stories in March-April 2020 of people who waited a week or two before seeking medical care. Meaning people who were ages 20-45. Presumably many of them believed that only people over 60 or 70 needed to worry about COVID-19.

Unfortunately, there are places where even as the number of detected cases is going down steadily as vaccinations increase, the number of hospitalizations is going up slightly. I'm guessing that most of these people being admitted have not been vaccinated at all. Have to look at county-level data in particular regions to see those trends.


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> Yes. I’m sure I know more that won’t admit it publicly.


I've also heard of situations where people who won't admit that they were vaccinated already.


----------



## MarzNC

Milo Maltbie said:


> It’s an exponential growth problem, not a small numbers problem.
> Researchers estimate the average infected person infects 3 others. That’s like the magic of compound interest, if the interest rate were 200% every two weeks. Reduce the reinfection rate by 90% by vaccines and the virus dies out. That’s how you get to normal.
> You may think you are healthy enough to survive the virus, but you are certainly not healthy enough to avoid infection or spreading it. If you live in CNY you may not know how bad it’s been in NYC fir the last year.
> 
> mm


In addition to the concept of exponential growth, what's unusual about COVID-19 is that asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic people who have no idea that they are infected can be contagious. That wasn't true for any of the other more deadly coronaviruses in the last 20 years. SARS and MERS were considered pandemics since multiple countries were involved, but people quickly learned to stay away from anyone with symptoms. SARS-CoV-2 has spread very differently.

The countries that were successful in controlling community spread in 2020 are grappling with community spread. Includes parts of Canada, Taiwan, Singapore, and Australia. There are many reasons that vaccinations were much slower to start in 2021 in those countries. But without vaccines, they would probably have to stayed closed to international travel for years to keep COVID-19 out. Can't get anywhere close to herd immunity without vaccines when very few people have whatever natural immunity recovering from COVID-19 provides.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> There is more to it than being in good health. Some of it is genetics, and I think some believe that blood type plays a role. (Not positive about that.) Also the AMOUNT of exposure you get seems to affect your bodies ability to fight it.
> 
> Maybe I'm not in good health. I feel pretty good. Covid hammered me.


This is true. Earlier in this thread I told y'all about a buddy of ours who was in ICU for a week with covid. He's in amazing shape and it still whooped his ass.


----------



## G.ski

Harvey said:


> There is more to it than being in good health. Some of it is genetics, and I think some believe that blood type plays a role. (Not positive about that.) Also the AMOUNT of exposure you get seems to affect your bodies ability to fight it.
> 
> Maybe I'm not in good health. I feel pretty good. Covid hammered me.


I agree with your mentioning the amount of exposure being very important. I'm retired. I allow people to be around me by choice that is my biggest advantage.


----------



## MarzNC

CDC put out a brief report about breakthrough infections based on data for Jan-Apr 2021. There were about 10,000 reported, with under 1000 hospitalized. Given that the median age of the 160 people who died was 82, there were probably other medical factors involved than COVID-19. During the last week of the period summarized in the report, there were 355,000 detected cases presumably among people who were not fully vaccinated.









						COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Infections Reported to CDC ...
					

COVID-19 vaccines are a critical tool for controlling the ongoing global pandemic.




					www.cdc.gov
				




_" . . .
A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 40–74 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 71–89 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern,§ including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%).

As of April 30, 2021, approximately 101 million persons in the United States had been fully vaccinated against COVID-19.¶ However, during the surveillance period, SARS-CoV-2 transmission continued at high levels in many parts of the country, with approximately 355,000 COVID-19 cases reported nationally during the week of April 24–30, 2021.
. . ."_


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Harvey said:


> Also the AMOUNT of exposure you get seems to affect your bodies ability to fight it.


Yep. Viral load it's called. I don't know about the science to prove it affects you more, but, like exposure to radiation (increased cancer) or millenials (increased selfishness), it makes sense.


----------



## Face4Me

D.B. Cooper said:


> ... or millenials (increased selfishness) ...


I don't know ... I've always thought that the Baby Boomers are/were the most selfish generation. Plenty of articles to be found on that topic.


----------



## G.ski

Hmmmm...different generations picking on each other. Nothing new about that normal.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Face4Me said:


> I don't know ... I've always thought that the Baby Boomers are/were the most selfish generation. Plenty of articles to be found on that topic.


Could be true. Not being part of either it was a coin flip.


----------



## x10003q

Face4Me said:


> I don't know ... I've always thought that the Baby Boomers are/were the most selfish generation. Plenty of articles to be found on that topic.


Written by millenials


----------



## tirolski

D.B. Cooper said:


> Yep. Viral load it's called. I don't know about the science to prove it affects you more, but, like exposure to radiation (increased cancer) or millenials (increased selfishness), it makes sense.


More ain’t better sometimes.


----------



## CNY Skier

Campgottagopee said:


> That's a long way around the barn for saying you don't want the shot ?


LOL that's funny! What I was trying to say is that there may be natural solutions to beating this virus, that's all. I realize that telling vaxed people that there may be an alternative is a delicate process and I respect each person's decision to get the shot or not. 

The human body is an incredible anti-viral machine as long as it has the right tools for the job. Vitamin D deficiency in particular seems to be a big problem here in the Northeast and other northern climates...go figure, we're cooped up inside w/out sunshine for 6 months out of the year.

As for the "small numbers" comment, I was referring to the published Pfizer study: ~15/15,000 vaxed people later ended up getting the virus vs. ~150/15,000 placebo people later ended up getting the virus. Huge reduction for sure but percentage wise (0.1% vs. 1.0%) it's still low for both parties. In another published pharma study the vaxed people actually had a _higher_ incidence of infection (they explained that away through various means).

In the end, it may not be a bad idea to have a control group (no vax) for this process.


----------



## MarzNC

Unfortunately, WY looks like a state where the combination of dropping the statewide mask mandate relatively early and having low vaccination rates is resulting in increased number of people being hospitalized. The vaccination rates is one of the lowest and varies quite a bit by county. WY has about 600,000 people, largest city is the capital Cheyenne with about 60,000 people. The statewide mask mandate was dropped in mid-March. The number of cases starts increasing soon after. The few other restrictions geared to encourage social distancing were gone by May 21, 2021. Jackson Hole is in Teton County, which has been much more pro-active about mask usage and testing. By the time my friends and I skied at JH in Dec 2020, everyone riding lifts was pretty used to masking up consistently. But I heard from my friend who is a long-time ski instructor that the situation in town made her pretty nervous.

The WY COVID Dashboard shows the number of "recovered" cases for those that tested positive. That's about 50,000. Clearly natural immunity from community spread (detected and undetected) among younger adults isn't providing enough protection from "herd immunity" as long as vaccination rates remain well below 50%.

May 25, Casper Star Tribune (USA)
Despite plateauing infections, COVID-19 hospitalizations on rise in Wyoming
https://trib.com/news/state-and-reg...7.html#tracking-source=article-related-bottom
_"New virus infections have been steadily low for months in Wyoming, but the number of people hospitalized with COVID-19 is on the rise.

State health officials aren’t exactly sure what’s behind the increase, but they say it’s clear that those being hospitalized are unvaccinated.

“We don’t fully understand why hospitalizations have increased over the past several weeks despite relatively stable transmission,” State Health Officer Dr. Alexia Harrist said via email Tuesday.

Fifty-eight people in Wyoming were hospitalized with COVID-19 on Monday, the most since late January. On Tuesday, the state announced that six more people had died from the virus, the most in a day since early March. All six patients were hospitalized, though one was hospitalized in another state.
. . ."_


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> Unfortunately, WY looks like a state where the combination of dropping the statewide mask mandate relatively early and having low vaccination rates is resulting in increased number of people being hospitalized. The vaccination rates is one of the lowest and varies quite a bit by county. WY has about 600,000 people, largest city is the capital Cheyenne with about 60,000 people. The statewide mask mandate was dropped in mid-March. The number of cases starts increasing soon after. The few other restrictions geared to encourage social distancing were gone by May 21, 2021. Jackson Hole is in Teton County, which has been much more pro-active about mask usage and testing. By the time my friends and I skied at JH in Dec 2020, everyone riding lifts was pretty used to masking up consistently. But I heard from my friend who is a long-time ski instructor that the situation in town made her pretty nervous.
> 
> The WY COVID Dashboard shows the number of "recovered" cases for those that tested positive. That's about 50,000. Clearly natural immunity from community spread (detected and undetected) among younger adults isn't providing enough protection from "herd immunity" as long as vaccination rates remain well below 50%.
> 
> May 25, Casper Star Tribune (USA)
> Despite plateauing infections, COVID-19 hospitalizations on rise in Wyoming
> https://trib.com/news/state-and-reg...7.html#tracking-source=article-related-bottom
> _"New virus infections have been steadily low for months in Wyoming, but the number of people hospitalized with COVID-19 is on the rise.
> 
> State health officials aren’t exactly sure what’s behind the increase, but they say it’s clear that those being hospitalized are unvaccinated.
> 
> “We don’t fully understand why hospitalizations have increased over the past several weeks despite relatively stable transmission,” State Health Officer Dr. Alexia Harrist said via email Tuesday.
> 
> Fifty-eight people in Wyoming were hospitalized with COVID-19 on Monday, the most since late January. On Tuesday, the state announced that six more people had died from the virus, the most in a day since early March. All six patients were hospitalized, though one was hospitalized in another state.
> . . ."_
> 
> View attachment 9489
> View attachment 9490


wonderful.
i'm going to there in 3 weeks


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> wonderful.
> i'm going to there in 3 weeks


Things can change pretty quickly. Hopefully folks in WY will figure out that getting vaccinated really is a good idea for people of any age, not just seniors.

Honestly, it wasn't that difficult to stay safe back in Dec in Jackson Hole and Grand Targhee (on a busy Saturday). Back then the locals weren't quite in a habit of masking indoors. It was easy to avoid "close contact" even when going to the restroom in one of the base buildings. I just kept moving and didn't stay in any one place for more than 5 minutes, usually less.

At least now you know that masking isn't really worth the effort outdoors.


----------



## sibhusky

And yet, in my neighboring state of Montana, where the mask ordinance was dropped mid-February, cases and hospitalizations are dropping.



Now, there are two other forces at work here. Individual municipalities were not forced to abandon their mask ordinances until May. Since several of those places are tourist destinations or major Montana cities that could have been the biggest problem areas anyway, that could mean that the bulk of the spread was still contained until May. 

The other issue is that vaccine acceptance is low except in the more liberal areas of the state or on the reservations (very hard hit by the virus). The state claims 43% of the population is vaccinated, but here locally the % of population is 27%. And yet our cases are down as well. 



I don't know if that blip was the end of the local ordinances or maybe Easter.


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> Things can change pretty quickly. Hopefully folks in WY will figure out that getting vaccinated really is a good idea for people of any age, not just seniors.
> 
> Honestly, it wasn't that difficult to stay safe back in Dec in Jackson Hole and Grand Targhee (on a busy Saturday). Back then the locals weren't quite in a habit of masking indoors. It was easy to avoid "close contact" even when going to the restroom in one of the base buildings. I just kept moving and didn't stay in any one place for more than 5 minutes, usually less.
> 
> At least now you know that masking isn't really worth the effort outdoors.


we are fully vaccinated, hopefully that will hold some water


----------



## Kingslug

Vitamin D..get yourself a bottle of it and take some in the morning...you'll be surprised at the results...


----------



## raisingarizona

Face4Me said:


> I don't know ... I've always thought that the Baby Boomers are/were the most selfish generation. Plenty of articles to be found on that topic.


I think that’s silly. We are all similar at the core imho, just products of a different time and culture. It’s all circumstantial


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> I think that’s silly. We are all similar at the core imho, just products of a different time and culture. It’s all circumstantial


“We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.”
- Maya Angelou


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> Covid brain fry? It gets some like that. 30 something seems crazy young though.


That's exactly what it was.
Today was his first day back to work. He told me his brain was moving at 300mph but his body couldn't keep up. To hear him tell you his story is scary AF. 
He wasn't vaxed. Is now.


----------



## wonderpony

Campgottagopee said:


> That's exactly what it was.
> Today was his first day back to work. He told me his brain was moving at 300mph but his body couldn't keep up. To hear him tell you his story is scary AF.
> He wasn't vaxed. Is now.


My son is back at work today after quarantining for covid. He has no sense of taste or smell. Hopefully, these will pass. I hope that he follows up with a vaccine in 3 months. 

It makes no sense to me. He could have been vaccinated. It's not like I have been harassing him throughout the pandemic about being safe or anything. But, I guess 23 year olds don't listen to their moms.


----------



## Brownski

Yikes
Hope he gets his taste back soon.

Danger boy gets shot 2 tomorrow


----------



## wonderpony

A while back, I had a horse that got hit with EPM. Basically, it's a neurological thing that happens when the horse is the end host of a protozoa. Where the protozoa hit the CNS depending on how the horse displayed the EPM. Taingeil could never turn to the left after EPM. He always circled to the right.

I have kind of thought of covid in the same way. You never know how it's going to hit you.


----------



## CNY Skier

wonderpony said:


> My son is back at work today after quarantining for covid. He has no sense of taste or smell. Hopefully, these will pass. I hope that he follows up with a vaccine in 3 months.
> 
> It makes no sense to me. He could have been vaccinated. It's not like I have been harassing him throughout the pandemic about being safe or anything. But, I guess 23 year olds don't listen to their moms.


I don't get it - if you had the virus you still don't develop natural immunity? Yikes!!! Maybe I should get the vaccine.


----------



## MarzNC

The question of the level of natural immunity is an important topic being researched. There were a few documented cases of re-infection in the news in 2020 in other countries for sure. The concern is that re-infection by a different variant is more likely. At this point number of highly contagious variants is popping up in a different continent than where they started is up to five.









						What we know about covid-19 reinfection so far
					

With most coronaviruses, recovery confers a degree of immunity to reinfection. But a small number of patients have caught covid-19 for a second time. Chris Stokel-Walker looks at what we know and how worried we should be  “Other things being equal, we can expect to see—even without this new...




					www.bmj.com
				




The first Q&A on the CDC FAQ is about whether or not someone who recovered from COVID-19 should get vaccinated. The answer is "yes."

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...ccine after covid:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen:pTN:FY21


----------



## MarzNC

Occurs to me that in the states or counties that had a lot of community spread in multiple surges, there are probably a fair number of people getting vaccinated who actually had COVID-19 but didn't know it because they never had noticeable symptoms. That's good news because they will be better protected from re-infection and potentially infecting someone they spend a lot of time with in the coming months. What's totally unusual about SARS-CoV-2 is that people who are asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic are contagious for several days.

People with mild symptoms can easily attribute those symptoms to other reasons if they don't have a quality COVID-19 test done at an optimum time after infection. Even a quality PCR test may produce a False Negative in Days 1-2. That's the thinking behind having a second test 4-5 days after a negative test.


----------



## raisingarizona

CNY Skier said:


> I don't get it - if you had the virus you still don't develop natural immunity? Yikes!!! Maybe I should get the vaccine.


I don’t think anyone really knows for sure. I had the vid early January 2020 and it rocked me. I had the post covid affects into early April. This past February I was in an enclosed vehicle for four hours with a coworker who became sick two days later. I didn’t get it again and I feel like I’ve been holding on to those antibodies. I don’t need science to feel confident saying that my immunity isn’t interested in getting the vid again.

still, I’ll be getting my second shot in two weeks. At this point I think it must be safe enough and I’m so done with pandemic protocols, I just want to move on now.


----------



## Tjf1967

Anyone at this point who is unwilling to get the shot (other than special circumstances) who get the virus and dies I will have a hard time feeling sad for them. I feel they lack common sense and if they were removed from the gene pool it may be better in the long run.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Anyone at this point who is unwilling to get the shot (other than special circumstances) who get the virus and dies I will have a hard time feeling sad for them. I feel they lack common sense and if they were removed from the gene pool it may be better in the long run.



I feel the same way.

Sadly I have a few friends that refuse to get it.


----------



## Scrundy

Tjf1967 said:


> Anyone at this point who is unwilling to get the shot (other than special circumstances) who get the virus and dies I will have a hard time feeling sad for them. I feel they lack common sense and if they were removed from the gene pool it may be better in the long run.


????


----------



## Harvey

Boy it is nice being maskless, especially in this heat.


----------



## wonderpony

Harvey said:


> Boy it is nice being maskless, especially in this heat.


It feels weird. I adulted today. No mask at the landfill or farmers market, mask at the grocery store and wine shop. I just felt really, really strange not having a mask on in public.


----------



## Brownski

I’ve been to the gym maskless a couple times and it felt really good. Trying to do cardio in a mask was miserable but seeing the immediate difference that ditching it made was kind of a surprise. Maybe I’ll have a shot at getting back in shape now.


----------



## Harvey

wonderpony said:


> It feels weird. I adulted today. No mask at the landfill or farmers market, mask at the grocery store and wine shop. I just felt really, really strange not having a mask on in public.


I'm still wearing one in the store. Easy enough to do. I think as of today, here, you are good to go anywhere if you are vaxed. I guess that is kind of pointless since anyone over the age of 18 that wants a vax probably already has one.


----------



## wonderpony

Brownski said:


> I’ve been to the gym maskless a couple times and it felt really good. Trying to do cardio in a mask was miserable but seeing the immediate difference that ditching it made was kind of a surprise. Maybe I’ll have a shot at getting back in shape now.


I think wearing a mask to work out would suck. That's why I am tentatively planning to go to work on the days that I jog and work from home on my yoga days, at least for the summer.


----------



## marcski

CDC Says This New Delayed Vaccine Side Effect Is Hitting Mostly Men
					

The CDC just warned that men are more likely to experience a delayed side effect of the COVID vaccine called myocarditis.




					bestlifeonline.com


----------



## raisingarizona

No more masks for me. It’s fantastic


----------



## raisingarizona

Tjf1967 said:


> Anyone at this point who is unwilling to get the shot (other than special circumstances) who get the virus and dies I will have a hard time feeling sad for them. I feel they lack common sense and if they were removed from the gene pool it may be better in the long run.


Well that’s not very nice.


----------



## x10003q

No mask in the gym for a week now - awesome.


----------



## Scrundy

raisingarizona said:


> Well that’s not very nice.


Arrogant I thought


----------



## Tjf1967

Scrundy said:


> Arrogant I thought


No shot?


----------



## Scrundy

Tjf1967 said:


> No shot?


That’s none of your business nor it it your business to worry about anyone else’s business. You just worry about you and yours and leave me to worry about me and mine. It’s a personal decision and everyone has reasons for getting or not getting it, I’m not gonna change your opinion and you won’t change mine, so save your breath and I’ll save mine.


----------



## Tjf1967

Scrundy said:


> That’s none of your business nor it it your business to worry about anyone else’s business. You just worry about you and yours and leave me to worry about me and mine. It’s a personal decision and everyone has reasons for getting or not getting it, I’m not gonna change your opinion and you won’t change mine, so save your breath and I’ll save mine.


Lol. I'll take that as a no. Have a good night


----------



## Campgottagopee

Scrundy said:


> That’s none of your business nor it it your business to worry about anyone else’s business. You just worry about you and yours and leave me to worry about me and mine. It’s a personal decision and everyone has reasons for getting or not getting it, I’m not gonna change your opinion and you won’t change mine, so save your breath and I’ll save mine.


I like it 
Words to live by


----------



## Sbob

A delayed flu season coming? I got the shots a month ago but last weekend I was down for the count and ended up in the ER . I was wiped out for three days with Covid type symptoms except for taste and smell loss. I tested negative for Covid but wasn't tested for the Flu, the mess started with severe allergies and morphed into virus. So it seems like mother nature will not be deprived LOL


----------



## Kingslug




----------



## Brownski

It’s too bad we can’t figure the masks at school thing, since it’s getting hot now. Just got an email that the HS is dismissing early because they’re concerned about the heat combing with the masks to cause problems


----------



## Harvey

Sbob said:


> A delayed flu season coming? I got the shots a month ago but last weekend I was down for the count and ended up in the ER. I was wiped out for three days with Covid type symptoms except for taste and smell loss. I tested negative for Covid but wasn't tested for the Flu, the mess started with severe allergies and morphed into virus. So it seems like mother nature will not be deprived LOL


This does sound pretty covidy. Not everyone gets every symptom. I never lost taste or smell.

How old are you if you don't mind me asking. 3 days is pretty quick to get over it, if you got it bad.

I read an excerpt (as much as I could read for free) in the NYTimes today that said that this Indian variant, called the delta variant, has done some "break-through on people who only had one Pfizer.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> I like it
> Words to live by


Definitely the words of a lot of Americans today.

“Fuck you, mind your own business”

or

“I got mine, Fuck you.”

or

“I’m not responsible for anything that happens as a result of my actions. Fuck you”

Sadly, the people who are so secretive will make it *more* likely that the authorities get more intrusive into our lives. But I bet I know the response to that statement already.


----------



## Sbob

Harvey said:


> This does sound pretty covidy. Not everyone gets every symptom. I never lost taste or smell.
> 
> How old are you if you don't mind me asking. 3 days is pretty quick to get over it, if you got it bad.
> 
> I read an excerpt (as much as I could read for free) in the NYTimes today that said that this Indian variant, called the delta variant, has done some "break-through on people who only had one Pfizer.


Around 60 But people tell me that I look late 40’s .

Leading up to my episode I was sneezing like crazy and had a bad sinus headache. It’s a bad allergy year for me and a lot of friends. Seems like once a decade I end up with a bad virus around allergy season.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> Definitely the words of a lot of Americans today.
> 
> “Fuck you, mind your own business”
> 
> or
> 
> “I got mine, Fuck you.”
> 
> or
> 
> “I’m not responsible for anything that happens as a result of my actions. Fuck you”
> 
> Sadly, the people who are so secretive will make it *more* likely that the authorities get more intrusive into our lives. But I bet I know the response to that statement already.


Not how interpreted Scrudy's comment at all

Not surprised that's how you did


----------



## Kingslug

Brownski said:


> It’s too bad we can’t figure the masks at school thing, since it’s getting hot now. Just got an email that the HS is dismissing early because they’re concerned about the heat combing with the masks to cause problems


so..the whole summer pretty much....


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

Scrundy said:


> That’s none of your business nor it it your business to worry about anyone else’s business. You just worry about you and yours and leave me to worry about me and mine. It’s a personal decision and everyone has reasons for getting or not getting it, I’m not gonna change your opinion and you won’t change mine, so save your breath and I’ll save mine.



I'm assuming you wouldn't push an old lady underneath a train. Yet you have no problem potentially killing an old lady through selfishness and/or negligence?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> I'm assuming you wouldn't push an old lady underneath a train. Yet you have no problem potentially killing an old lady through selfishness and/or negligence?


Good gawd 
I'm not trying to speak for Scrundy but imo he's not saying that at all. I think he's saying the exact opposite of that.


----------



## Ripitz

Is she a mean old lady?


----------



## Tjf1967

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> I'm assuming you wouldn't push an old lady underneath a train. Yet you have no problem potentially





Ripitz said:


> Is she a mean old lady?


Like MM?


----------



## Scrundy

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> I'm assuming you wouldn't push an old lady underneath a train. Yet you have no problem potentially killing an old lady through selfishness and/or negligence?


You assumed correctly. But at this point the old lady should have the vaccine. (should protect her right?) If she doesn’t, she must not be very concerned. I mean really they are just about bribing people to get it. If she didn’t and is concerned, she can always wear the life saving mask. Just imagine how protected the sweet old bag would be if she did both????
Don’t you trust the vaccine to work ?


----------



## raisingarizona

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> I'm assuming you wouldn't push an old lady underneath a train. Yet you have no problem potentially killing an old lady through selfishness and/or negligence?


And some folks have no problem being liberal bullies trying to force their opinions on others.

thing is, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with questioning our government and big pharma on the safety of the rushed release of these vaccines. In fact, I’d say you might be a bit of a moron for jumping right in without any doubt, especially if you are going to call out the suspicious and act so righteous. This liberal lefty shaming of people is exactly why some people hate the left and gravitated towards trump.

seriously, knock it the F off already.


----------



## raisingarizona

And……3, 2, 1……the forum is about to go into political shit.

bummer


----------



## raisingarizona

MC2 said:


> Definitely the words of a lot of Americans today.
> 
> “Fuck you, mind your own business”
> 
> or
> 
> “I got mine, Fuck you.”
> 
> or
> 
> “I’m not responsible for anything that happens as a result of my actions. Fuck you”
> 
> Sadly, the people who are so secretive will make it *more* likely that the authorities get more intrusive into our lives. But I bet I know the response to that statement already.


Or maybe it’s more like, I don’t trust our government or big pharma. I feel that’s just looking at history but hey, you do you.


----------



## Harvey

We are getting busy and advertising for help. Also reaching out to head hunters. Getting nowhere.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

Harvey said:


> We are getting busy and advertising for help. Also reaching out to head hunters. Getting nowhere.


This. All of this. Hope everyone is well here on NYSB.


----------



## MarzNC

CNN did quite an in depth report about how things are going in Vermont.

July 28, 2021








						'I don't feel any fear going out.' How residents are living in America's most vaccinated state | CNN
					

Throughout Vermont, hospital Covid-19 units are mostly empty. Bars and restaurants are hopping again. In remote rural towns, diners, country stores and campgrounds are filling up. This is life in the most vaccinated state in America.




					edition.cnn.com
				




I noticed more people masked up walking around mid-town Manhattan than anywhere else I've been in the last couple months. In general the tourists near Time Square mostly don't have masks on outdoors. I only drove around in Manhattan. Didn't have a reason to park since the actual destination or starting point was on Long Island.


----------



## MarzNC

Finding a restaurant open on a Monday proved to be a bit challenging in western VA or western NC in mid-July. There are Help Wanted signs all over. Along with signs that say something like "closed on XXXday due to lack of staffing" at places that used to be open 7 days a week during the summer season. Also signs on restaurant doors asking people to be patient.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> We are getting busy and advertising for help. Also reaching out to head hunters. Getting nowhere.



It's getting bad, real bad. Many restaurants here are no longer open for lunch, they simply don't have workers. Some have closed all together. 
I'm fearful for the ski areas this winter. 
All that said, our biz is setting records each month, we've already had a record year, and it's only July (end of).


----------



## wonderpony

I'm glad this resurfaced. I was going to start a new thread, with the Delta variant happening. I especially wanted to have MarzNC's stats happening.

I found out that I have a co-worker that is unvaccinated, because she is worried that she can't get pregnant after being vaccinated. Her MIL just died from COVID. She isn't disclosing to most people that she isn't vaccinated. I have this fear that she went to a funeral, with a bunch of other unvaccinated people, to honor a woman who died from COVID, and then show up at work like nothing happened. I only know that the MIL died from COVID complications by finding something online.

I am annoyed by the whole thing because Cornell expects us to come back to work fully for the Fall semester. It will be interesting to see how they modify their plans, however.


----------



## Harvey

I hate to lock threads. Just behave people.

Personal freedom is our strength and weakness.

From what I am reading, we need a delta booster now.


----------



## wonderpony

Harvey said:


> I hate to lock threads. Just behave people.
> 
> Personal freedom is our strength and weakness.
> 
> From what I am reading, we need a delta booster now.


I agree 100 per cent. I am just trying to process how to move forward in my own world. I feel like Ozzy: "Here we go again."

This forum has been a godsend for information for me, as well as some sanity. That's what I am hoping for.


----------



## Brownski

I think changing your daily routine would probably be premature. Just my gut feeling.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> From what I am reading, we need a delta booster now.


I doubt it. There are reports and studies that mention a decrease in antibodies with Pfizer. That's natural. But what really matters is that vaccines activate T-cells/B-cells. Need those to create new antibodies in the future if SARS-CoV-2 gets into the body. My immunologist ski buddy is pretty confident that immunity from vaccination is good for 1-3 years. She thinks even natural immunity is probably good for 1-2 years. We've been discussing this topic for months.

Of course, Delta is shifting thinking in general. I think the emphasis on reporting about breakthrough cases is encouraging a perception that being vaccinated doesn't provide any protection at all. That's not true. The percentage for breakthrough hospitalizations is very low in relation to the 161+ million Americans who are vaccinated.


----------



## tirolski

Rutrow. 
It’s a CDC report bout Delta in the Cape Cod County, so there’s that.








Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...


This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...




www.cdc.gov


----------



## jasonwx

tirolski said:


> Rutrow.
> It’s a CDC report bout Delta in the Cape Cod County, so there’s that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...
> 
> 
> This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


As I read this from cape cod


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Rutrow.
> It’s a CDC report bout Delta in the Cape Cod County, so there’s that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...
> 
> 
> This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


Yep. What's not detailed in the CDC report is the fact that there are hundreds of non-MA residents who also tested positive after visiting the Provincetown July 4th festival. The total size of the "cluster" is approaching 1000. Many tourists were responsible people who were fully vaccinated. That's why they bothered to get tested after hearing from friends about the outbreak. Probably others who were vaccinated, got COVID but didn't have symptoms, and haven't been tested. Looks like about 1/3 local residents, 1/3 MA residents, and 1/3 out-of-state tourists. Of course, harder to have solid numbers about the tourists. MA residents are probably pretty good about cooperating with contract tracers.

July 30, 2021








Provincetown COVID Cluster Now Approaching 900 Cases


Nearly 50 new cases associated with the growing Provincetown COVID-19 cluster were reported over the past 24 hours, bringing the total number to 882. The cluster jumped Thursday after almost 100 new cases were reported Wednesday, bringing the total number to 833. The previous report released...




www.nbcboston.com





Eastern MA has high vaccination rates in general. MA has very good contact tracing, probably some of the best in the country. That's why CDC could get data to analyze in depth.

July 15, 2021








'Pandemic is Still Going On': Vaccinated Chicago Man Who Tested Positive After Vacation Warns Others


Robert Coy has been fully vaccinated for months and was ready to enjoy a vacation with friends after more than a year of uncertainty during the coronavirus pandemic. Then things took a surprising turn.




www.nbcchicago.com




_"
Robert Coy has been fully vaccinated for months and was ready to enjoy a vacation with friends after more than a year of uncertainty during the coronavirus pandemic.

"It was one of those things where, you know, we've been going out to places now at that point, maybe for a week or two, but we were able to take off masks, rejoin society, the CDC guidelines kept getting looser and looser and looser," Coy told NBC Chicago. "So I signed up to go [on a trip], it sounded like a great idea after especially, you know, a year and a half of what we all went through together." 

So, Coy and five other friends traveled to Provincetown, Massachusetts, where they enjoyed a memorable vacation. 

"We were able to go out, have a great time, make a lot of new friends and had really a blast of a trip," he said.

But as they returned, things changed. 

"On Sunday night, all of a sudden, texts started pouring in saying that people who had been fully vaccinated as much as I had were testing positive for COVID," he said, including several members of his group of friends. 

So on Monday, Coy got a test of his own. Positive.
. . ."_


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> As I read this from cape cod


Have you noticed more people masking in the last week? The local news started covering the cluster a couple weeks ago.


----------



## MarzNC

Since @wonderpony wanted stats . . . NY Times has added graphical displays over the last few months. Most recently a map of hospitalizations by county. That count is far more useful in the current situation than detected case counts. Remember that well over 95% of people being hospitalized are unvaccinated. The biggest raw numbers are in FL, TX, MO with AR, MS, LA, NV also in trouble in terms of overwhelming healthcare systems.

Vaccination rates vary widely not only by region by also by county even within states with overall high vaccination rates, can be as much as a 30% spread within a state. Seniors are generally pretty well protected by vaccination, but with Delta changing the situation need to be careful around people who are unvaccinated. Kids under 12 are at higher risk of getting COVID-19 because Delta is so much more transmissible. Once again, multi-generational families who aren't following public health recommendations are putting themselves at higher risk. Difference in July 2021 is that vaccines exist that work to help greatly decrease serious illness, but people still need to know what minor symptoms to look for and be willing to get tested as a precaution.

I tend to look at only the last few months (60, 90, 180 days) when looking at trend graphs.



https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> Have you noticed more people masking in the last week? The local news started covering the cluster a couple weeks ago.


Back in ny 75 % of the pp wear masks indoors 
On the cape it’s more like 25% if that
0% of the older people mask up


----------



## Harvey

Thanks @MarzNC I hope you are right, just a media fixation on reporting breakthroughs. I saw a story yesterday, the first one I've seen, about a vaxed person who got hit hard. (haha in marketing we call that "focus group of one" meaning not statistically relevant).

About to go pick up our daughter from camp. They called last night, someone in her cabin tested positive. She tested negative, not sure what kind of test or whatever.


----------



## marcski

What's really scary is that 74% of those 450 plus infected out on the Cape were fully vaccinated. I am still wearing a mask indoors. No reason not to. Not a big deal to me but getting Covid certainly would be!









						No deaths, few hospitalizations, but 74% of those testing positive for COVID-19 in Massachusetts outbreak were vaccinated
					

A federal investigation into a COVID-19 outbreak earlier this month in a Massachusetts county that's home to Cape Cod found that 74% of the 469 infections...




					www.marketwatch.com


----------



## Harvey

I never stopped wearing a mask indoors. Seems like it is probably coming back.


----------



## MarzNC

marcski said:


> What's really scary is that 74% of those 450 plus infected out on the Cape were fully vaccinated. I am still wearing a mask indoors. No reason not to. Not a big deal to me but getting Covid certainly would be!


Still should keep in mind the denominator. There were 60,000 people at the 3-day July 4th festival. Hard to know what the percent vaccinated was but say it was 50%. That could mean 30,000 people unvaccinated and potentially infectious . . . without knowing it. Vaccinated people who later tested positive probably spent several hours inside bars in close contact with a lot of unvaccinated people. Everyone was probably unmasked. Was probably pretty loud. So the amount of Delta floating around was high on Day 1. By Day 3 the number of people infected had already grown, but most people still had no idea they had COVID-19. In short, everyone had major exposure to a variant that replicates faster and hangs around in an infected person's nose longer . . . without giving them noticeable symptoms.

As in 2020, not really that hard to avoid exposure that puts someone at high risk of getting infected. Being vaccinated greatly decreases the likelihood of being infected under normal day-to-day living. That's what the efficacy results of the large clinical trials showed in 2020. But being vaccinated was never going to provide 100% protection against major exposure. Healthcare folks still need PPE at work. People who get flu shots still sometimes get the flu, but have milder symptoms because of the vaccination.

Anybody remember these graphics? Can't remember if I posted them here or not. The table came from the UK. Probably should consider that avoiding close contact actually means close contact with someone who isn't vaccinated or that is a stranger.


----------



## wonderpony

MarzNC said:


> Have you noticed more people masking in the last week? The local news started covering the cluster a couple weeks ago.


Absolutely. I went to a grocery store today, and about half the people were masked.


----------



## Peter Minde

Definitely seeing more people masking up.


----------



## MarzNC

Oddly, I'm having the most discussion online about the pandemic with Australians. Just ignore my ramblings if you aren't interested.

The problems in Australia with vaccine rollout and hesitancy are very different than in N. America or Europe. The primary vaccine was supposed to be Astra Zeneca but the messaging about the rare blood clot side effect was a mess. Way worse than the pause for the single dose J&J, which was not a primary vaccine for us in any case. Australia produces AZ but a lot of people who are eligible don't want it.

This article from Australia has examples of what people say to help convince someone that getting AZ instead of waiting for Pfizer is a good idea. Or just getting vaccinated in general since up until Delta, there were very few cases in Australia initiated by community spread. 

Aug. 1, 2021








						‘The science swayed her’: how do you convince someone to get vaccinated?
					

Readers relate their Covid vaccine conversations with family and friends, and which they think is the best approach




					www.theguardian.com
				




The international borders have been essentially closed since early 2020, with 14-day hotel quarantine required and limited spaces available (quarantined people pay the bill). In the last 12 months, lockdowns (Stay At Home) that last weeks or months have been started for under 10 detected cases of community spread. As with the rest of the world, Delta has changed the situation for Australia. The latest numbers in the state, New South Wales, that includes Sydney are over 2000 detected cases, mostly by contact tracing.

NSW and Victoria (includes Melbourne) are the two Australian states with ski resorts. There is an Epic Australian Pass for Perisher, Falls Creek, and Hotham, which are in Victoria. Falls and Hotham closed for a few days, but have re-opened. People living in NSW are not allowed to cross the state border into Victoria. A recent negative test was required for a while. The other large ski resort, Thredbo, is on Ikon. Perisher and Thredbo are pretty close together (like Summit County resorts).


----------



## MC2




----------



## wonderpony

Tompkins County has an Indoor Mask Mandate. Apparently, Cornell sent out an email late Friday, after I left work at 4:30.

I am thinking about working from home tomorrow. I kind of feel like a weenie, but I am concerned.


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> Tompkins County has an Indoor Mask Mandate. Apparently, Cornell sent out an email late Friday, after I left work at 4:30.
> 
> I am thinking about working from home tomorrow. I kind of feel like a weenie, but I am concerned.


If you can work from home, why not?

While I'm going to drive up to Lake Placid in a couple weeks, I'm staying very close to my house when I've been home this summer. More so than Summer 2020 in some ways. The arrival of Delta and lack of universal mask requirements means the situation has shifted dramatically since May 2021. Far more is known compared to early March 2020, but the level of uncertainty feels similar to when I had to decide whether or not to let my daughter fly to Boston for a quick visit with a couple adult friends. Meaning just before everything shut down across the country.


----------



## MarzNC

There are people in some regions worrying about going all the way back to using "lockdowns" to slow community spread. Dr. Fauci is saying very clearly he doesn't expect that given the overall vaccination status in most states.

Aug. 1, 2021








Fauci: New lockdowns unlikely despite surge in Delta cases


"But things are going to get worse," Fauci said.




www.axios.com


----------



## MarzNC

MC2 said:


> View attachment 9888


Good summary table but I think the context in the Axios article and the original NBC report is important too. In particular the fact that there are probably a fair number of breakthrough cases that aren't being detected. That's actually a good sign that vaccination is doing what it was designed to do, which is to make COVID-19 a much lower risk. Vaccinated people who get infected are much less likely to have symptoms that would lead them to seek testing or medical care. So they are that much more likely not to ever get counted.

July 31, 2021








Chart: Less than 0.1% of vaccinated Americans have tested positive for COVID-19


The low numbers show that the pandemic is mostly a threat for the unvaccinated population.




www.axios.com





July 30, 2021








Breakthrough Covid cases: Data shows how many vaccinated Americans have tested positive


The 125,682 "breakthrough" cases in 38 states represent less than .08 percent of the 164.2 million-plus people fully vaccinated since January.




www.nbcnews.com





CDC stopped tracking detected breakthrough cases that don't lead to hospitalization or death back in April 2021. The statistics for breakthrough hospitalization and deaths are updated as CDC gets info from states. Most people who were fully vaccinated and then tested positive were over 65 years old, as of late July 2021. Worth remembering that vaccine eligibility for all adults didn't happen until April 2021.






COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC


Information and resources to help public health departments and laboratories investigate and report COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough cases.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## MarzNC

Reporting about breakthrough cases seems as complicated in July 2021 as reporting on cases was for the USA in April 2020. The data based on testing is known to be incomplete for assorted reasons, especially for asymptomatic breakthrough cases. In 2020 I started following stats for states in The NY Times and CovidActNow because at least the data were presented in a consistent format. So spotting trends was possible. Getting a sense of what's really happening with breakthrough cases across the country will take a while longer. It's good that a few states are collecting good relevant data.

NBC News clearly started trying to make sense of breakthrough cases a while ago. They asked all 50 states directly for data and found that some states are keeping track of the vaccination status for people who test positive. The states tracking breakthrough cases that are mentioned in the July 30 article include WA, UT, OK, MN, IL, VA, LA. MA and NY are probably tracking breakthrough cases too. The hot spots like FL, TX, MO probably aren't even trying. <sigh>

July 19, 2021








A tiny fraction of vaccinated people get sick and die from Covid. Who's at risk?


Fully vaccinated people who become seriously ill following breakthrough infections tend be older or have serious medical conditions.




www.nbcnews.com





July 30, 2021








Breakthrough Covid cases: Data shows how many vaccinated Americans have tested positive


The 125,682 "breakthrough" cases in 38 states represent less than .08 percent of the 164.2 million-plus people fully vaccinated since January.




www.nbcnews.com




_"
WASHINGTON — At least 125,000 fully vaccinated Americans have tested positive for Covid and 1,400 of those have died, according to data collected by NBC News.

The 125,682 "breakthrough" cases in 38 states found by NBC News represent less than .08 percent of the 164.2 million-plus people who have been fully vaccinated since January, or about one in every 1,300. The number of cases and deaths among the vaccinated is very small compared to the number among the unvaccinated. A former Biden adviser on Covid estimated that 98 to 99 percent of deaths are among the unvaccinated.

But the total number of breakthrough cases is likely higher than 125,683, since nine states, including Pennsylvania and Missouri, did not provide any information, while 11, like Covid hotspot Florida, did not provide death and hospitalization totals. Four states gave death and hospitalization numbers, but not the full tally of cases.

And vaccinated adults who have breakthrough cases but show no symptoms could be missing from the data altogether, say officials.
. . ."_


----------



## wonderpony

MarzNC said:


> If you can work from home, why not?
> 
> While I'm going to drive up to Lake Placid in a couple weeks, I'm staying very close to my house when I've been home this summer. More so than Summer 2020 in some ways. The arrival of Delta and lack of universal mask requirements means the situation has shifted dramatically since May 2021. Far more is known compared to early March 2020, but the level of uncertainty feels similar to when I had to decide whether or not to let my daughter fly to Boston for a quick visit with a couple adult friends. Meaning just before everything shut down across the country.


Because I miss seeing actual humans. However, several of the few actual humans I saw on campus have had the same thought that I had: Let's enjoy this little bit of normal while we can. I just thought it would last a bit longer.


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> Because I miss seeing actual humans. However, several of the few actual humans I saw on campus have had the same thought that I had: Let's enjoy this little bit of normal while we can. I just thought it would last a bit longer.


Understandable. I would hope that after the students settle in, it will be okay to be on campus.

Best decision I made in April 2020 was to form a "pod" with two other families. The other two families had 3 tweens between them. The kids all enjoy spending time with my daughter since she's a bit older. The single mom really enjoyed it when we got together for a morning hike. The trip to Lake Placid at the lake house in late June 2020 was with them, plus another NCS alum from Boston. Also meant we were very comfortable having turkey together at Thanksgiving since none of us have close relatives who live close by. Having that company in person made a big difference for me.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

Campgottagopee said:


> It's getting bad, real bad. Many restaurants here are no longer open for lunch, they simply don't have workers. Some have closed all together.
> I'm fearful for the ski areas this winter.
> All that said, our biz is setting records each month, we've already had a record year, and it's only July (end of).


Camp, are you setting records as in gross sales or number of units? The used car market is nuts right now.


----------



## MC2

MarzNC said:


> Good summary table but I think the context in the Axios article and the original NBC report is important too. In particular the fact that there are probably a fair number of breakthrough cases that aren't being detected.


I don’t think we should care about that. In fact, any talk about the number of breakthrough infections gives antivaxxers a bunch of fuel for their stupid “see? Vaccines don’t work” arguments. 

Better to highlight how rare breakthrough infections are and reinforce the idea that everyone should be vaccinated than to say dumb shit like “actually, all of the people who got vaccinated might have Covid and not even know it!”

At this point, I don’t give a shit if people get the immunity through vaccination or through getting COVID. Highly vaccinated populations like Vermont and the UK are doing well. Focus on that.


----------



## Brownski

+1 MC is talking sense


----------



## XTski

wonderpony said:


> Because I miss seeing actual humans. However, several of the few actual humans I saw on campus have had the same thought that I had: Let's enjoy this little bit of normal while we can. I just thought it would last a bit longer.


Smart of you to show up at your job Wonder! good bosses see that and reward those who show, ones that stay and work from home show how replaceable they are and very well should be


----------



## Campgottagopee

Adirondack Johnny said:


> Camp, are you setting records as in gross sales or number of units? The used car market is nuts right now.



Both
It's a good problem to have.


----------



## XTski

Forbes and quite a few others are reporting how remote workers are replaceable and they say it’s more important for women to show up and not work remotely.
Unless you’re living off someone else now is the best time to advance your career leapfrog over the lazy


----------



## Harvey

marcski said:


> What's really scary is that 74% of those 450 plus infected out on the Cape were fully vaccinated.



As vaccination rates increase the percentage of cases that are in vaccinated people increases.

Let's say you have 100 people, 99 vaccinated. 2 get covid. The one unvaxed and one of the vaxed.

Both statements are true but one is somewhat misleading:

50% of people who got covid are vaccinated.
1% of vaccinated people got covid, 100% of the unvaccinated got covid.


----------



## Ripitz

XTski said:


> Forbes and quite a few others are reporting how remote workers are replaceable and they say it’s more important for women to show up and not work remotely.
> Unless you’re living off someone else now is the best time to advance your career leapfrog over the lazy


Everyone is replaceable and just because you work remotely doesn’t mean you are lazy. My wife’s company is shedding as much real estate as possible. I’d rather see office space disappear rather than someone’s job. Her work load is bigger than ever and she gets it all done from home.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> As vaccination rates increase the percentage of cases that are in vaccinated people increases.
> 
> Let's say you have 100 people, 99 vaccinated. 2 get covid. The one unvaxed and one of the vaxed.
> 
> Both statements are true but one is somewhat misleading:
> 
> 50% of people who got covid are vaccinated.
> 1% of vaccinated people got covid, 100% of the unvaccinated got covid.


Statistics schmatistics for the win. 
Numbers don’t lie.
Folks been twisting them though since they’ve been invented.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Ripitz said:


> Her work load is bigger than ever and she gets it all done from home.


I'm sure that's working out for her company, but is it gonna work for her in the long run? Long before WFH was a thing, I knew a lot of guys who worked in remote field offices for a large organization. More often than not they were overlooked for raises and promotions. I expect the same thing for home workers unless they are in a very quantifiable business. But if your job can be done from a laptop, someone in India will do it for $8 an hour.

Technology ruins everything it touches.

mm


----------



## Ripitz

Milo Maltbie said:


> Technology ruins everthing it touches.


Consider yourself ruined by using this platform


----------



## Tjf1967

I'm confident


Ripitz said:


> Consider yourself ruined by using this platform


He was ruined long before this. ?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tjf1967 said:


> I'm confident
> 
> He was ruined long before this. ?


Sadly, that's true. Time is undefeated, as you will learn soon enough.

But thanks for thinking of me.

mm


----------



## Ripitz

Milo Maltbie said:


> someone in India will do it


Sadly one of the tech guys my wife works with in India was apologizing the other day for not working through a problem quick enough. He said he was the only one left in the office because everyone else has COVID. Many of his coworkers have died. Consider it a privilege to decide whether or not to get the vaccine and then go get it.


----------



## Harvey

I only recently started working from home. I've been doing a half day home, half day in the office.

It's probably good that I did it, because I am one of two people making the decision about what to do going forward.

Regarding productivity, I do feel like I get just as much done UNLESS my daughter is home. It's harder then, because there isn't really a place for me to work.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Ripitz said:


> Consider it a privilege to decide wether or not to get the vaccine and then go get it.


+1000

mm


----------



## raisingarizona

I think productivity for wfh workers depends a lot on personality. My gf kills it working from home, even if her coworkers were in an office and she was at home she’d still probably bring in the highest amount of sales.

me? I couldn’t do it. I wouldn’t even try to do any sort of office work unless it’s for my own business. That sort of work from home? Oh man, I’d be all over the place. Busy, office work does not compute for me. It feels weird, almost like pretend “work”.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Consider it a privilege to decide wether or not to get the vaccine and then go get it.



I agree with this, and I'm proud to say I got vaxed as soon as I could and I will get any booster this or that that comes along. However, I do have friends (more than a few) who are so dug in on not getting it that I have to respect them for their decision. For whatever their reasoning is I will support them. IMO all the pressure being put on the not vaxed thru TV commercials, news, and politics is making them dig in more. It's time to stop it because I think it's having a reverse effect.


----------



## tirolski

When working at my last position we could run the analytical instruments from home check on em, start and stop them, and process the data to get results for the folks who submitted samples. 
Needed to prep the samples at work before putting them in the instruments.
Sometimes the samples would take days to prepare before putting them in the instrument.
It was mainly glycan analysis.

Being retired (b4 the vid) I work from home on my golf game, hitting shots into the kiddie pool.
Tis better to actually go golfing but I’ve mowed the grass shorter with a 1st cut of rough too on the par 1 course.
The rain keeps it well watered.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> However, I do have friends (more than a few) who are so dug in on not getting it that I have to respect them for their decision. For whatever their reasoning is I will support them. IMO all the pressure being put on the not vaxed thru TV commercials, news, and politics is making them dig in more. It's time to stop it because I think it's having a reverse effect.


I do wonder if people would have the same opinion on other things that their friends do that are harmful to society.

“My friends think drunk driving laws are stupid, so they don’t follow them and I have to respect them for their decision”

“My buddy dumps chemicals in the stream behind his house. Whatever his reasoning is, I support him. Any pressure that the government applies just makes him dig in more”

I think that if you don’t want to mandate the vaccines, at least make it increasingly difficult to operate in society without it (require that people get tested on their own dime every week or something).


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> I do wonder if people would have the same opinion on other things that their friends do that are harmful to society.
> 
> “My friends think drunk driving laws are stupid, so they don’t follow them and I have to respect them for their decision”
> 
> “My buddy dumps chemicals in the stream behind his house. Whatever his reasoning is, I support him. Any pressure that the government applies just makes him dig in more”
> 
> I think that if you don’t want to mandate the vaccines, at least make it increasingly difficult to operate in society without it (require that people get tested on their own dime every week or something).


Typical
I'll sit right next to my buddies in jail ✌️


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Typical
> I'll sit right next to my buddies in jail ✌️


At a safe distance I hope lol.


----------



## Harvey

May be up to the private sector to do the encouraging.

Or maybe you make getting a vax illegal, and let the black market take over. 

I heard a guy on the radio this morning, who was saying that he didn't think it was safe and that's why he held off, but now that he was getting 100 bucks, that changed everything. I don't get that.

On a more serious note, sandwiches have gotten really expensive.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Typical
> I'll sit right next to my buddies in jail ✌️


What are you going to jail for? Drunk driving? Polluting water?

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> What are you going to jail for? Drunk driving? Polluting water?
> 
> mm


Most likely public urination for peeing in a crick drunk.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Most likely public urination for peeing in a crick drunk.


Wait what?!? You can't do that?

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I heard a guy on the radio this morning, who was saying that he didn't think it was safe and that's why he held off, but now that he was getting 100 bucks, that changed everything. I don't get that.


100 bucks is a 100 bucks  

I don't get it either --- lol


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> he didn't think it was safe and that's why he held off, but now that he was getting 100 bucks, that changed everything. I don't get that.
> 
> On a more serious note, sandwiches have gotten really expensive.


Maybe he wanted the $100 to buy sandwiches?

I just got a gyro platter for $7.64.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Wait what?!? You can't do that?
> 
> mm


lol


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Wait what?!? You can't do that?
> 
> mm


Can ya still pee in the ocean and not get picked up? Fish and whales do.


----------



## Ripitz

MC2 said:


> I do wonder if people would have the same opinion on other things that their friends do that are harmful to society.
> 
> “My friends think drunk driving laws are stupid, so they don’t follow them and I have to respect them for their decision”
> 
> “My buddy dumps chemicals in the stream behind his house. Whatever his reasoning is, I support him. Any pressure that the government applies just makes him dig in more”
> 
> I think that if you don’t want to mandate the vaccines, at least make it increasingly difficult to operate in society without it (require that people get tested on their own dime every week or something).


Remember when you would walk into a restaurant and they would ask, “Smoking or non-smoking?”.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Remember when you would walk into a restaurant and they would ask, “Smoking or non-smoking?”.


Remember when folks put tetraethyl lead in gas to keep the motors from knockin.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

I haven't been vaccinated yet.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Remember when you would walk into a restaurant and they would ask, “Smoking or non-smoking?”.


No, he doesn't remember those days. That's just it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Adirondack Johnny said:


> I haven't been vaccinated yet.


I'll sit next to ya bud


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> No, he doesn't remember those days. That's just it.


Of course I remember that.

Doesn’t mean I want to go back to those days, or deal with smokers on planes, have asbestos in my walls, have CFCs in my fridge, etc.

Someday, maybe you guys will realize that regulation is sometimes good.

Also, fucking get vaccinated, Johnny. Christ.


----------



## Harvey

I spoke to a head hunter today. (One of our employees has chosen to retire vs come back to the office in Sept.)

He and his wife were vaxed, and got covid recently, from their son. They were sick for about 10 days, same as me. But unlike me, they were able to work (WFH) through it.


----------



## wonderpony

Does anybody have stats about new infections after recovering from COVID?


----------



## wonderpony

I keep saying that we are all in this great experiment, but I am starting to get tired of it. 

WTF do I do about the fact that I know that one of my coworkers is unvaxxed, had a family member that died of COVID this past week, was probably in contact with a bunch of other family members because of the funeral, who I am guessing are antivax and I have another coworker that will be sitting with her in a shared space, although 6 feet apart???? At least Cornell is making masks mandatory, but I still feel like this is a complete shit show. If I were my coworker who had no idea what was going on, I would be super pissed.


----------



## Ripitz

Ripitz said:


> Remember when you would walk into a restaurant and they would ask, “Smoking or non-smoking?”.


I’m glad those days are over. Looking forward to this COVID bullshit to be over too.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Ripitz said:


> Looking forward to this COVID bullshit to be over too.


It will never be over. It’s just not possible to vaccinate enough people to prevent new variants from developing among the unvaccinated. That’s true even if anti-vax ignorance goes away. 
It took 200 years to eliminate smallpox. Polio is almost eliminated after 70 years. 
Expect to need a new COVID vaccine every year or so for the rest of your life. 

mm


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I spoke to a head hunter today. (One of our employees has chosen to retire vs come back to the office in Sept.)
> 
> He and his wife were vaxed, and got covid recently, from their son. They were sick for about 10 days, same as me. But unlike me, they were able to work (WFH) through it.


Yep, that's the advantage of getting vaccinated for COVID-19. If someone does get enough exposure to pick up COVID-19, much more likely to have milder symptoms than if they were unvaccinated.

The best data I've found so far about breakthrough cases is by KFF. Like NBC, they asked for data from states. Webpage has a table with the numbers for anyone interested.









COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States


We reviewed the websites and other official state sources for all 50 states and D.C. to see which are providing data on COVID-19 breakthrough cases, hospitalizations and deaths, how regularly, and …




www.kff.org




_" . . .
*The data reported from these states indicate that breakthrough cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are extremely rare events among those who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 (see Figure 1). *The rate of breakthrough cases reported among those fully vaccinated is well below 1% in all reporting states, ranging from 0.01% in Connecticut to 0.29% in Alaska._

_The hospitalization rate among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 ranged from effectively zero (0.00%) in California, Delaware, D.C., Indiana, New Jersey, New Mexico, Vermont, and Virginia to 0.06% in Arkansas. (Note: Hospitalization may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)_
_The rates of death among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 were even lower, effectively zero (0.00%) in all but two reporting states, Arkansas and Michigan where they were 0.01%. (Note: Deaths may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)_
_. . ."_


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> Does anybody have stats about new infections after recovering from COVID?


Can't help with that.

You might find this interview of interest.









What We Can Glean From Rare COVID-19 Reinfections


Lulu Garcia-Navarro talks with Amesh Adalja, an infectious disease doctor from Johns Hopkins University, about COVID-19 reinfections.




www.npr.org


----------



## Harvey

wonderpony said:


> WTF do I do about the fact that I know that one of my coworkers is unvaxxed, had a family member that died of COVID this past week, was probably in contact with a bunch of other family members because of the funeral, who I am guessing are antivax and I have another coworker that will be sitting with her in a shared space, although 6 feet apart???? At least Cornell is making masks mandatory, but I still feel like this is a complete shit show. If I were my coworker who had no idea what was going on, I would be super pissed.



This is a tough spot to be in. Are you bound by some kind of confidentiality?


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> I agree with this, and I'm proud to say I got vaxed as soon as I could and I will get any booster this or that that comes along. However, I do have friends (more than a few) who are so dug in on not getting it that I have to respect them for their decision. For whatever their reasoning is I will support them. IMO all the pressure being put on the not vaxed thru TV commercials, news, and politics is making them dig in more. It's time to stop it because I think it's having a reverse effect.


I totally agree, The extreme lefts shaming, virtue signaling and even down right shit talking isn’t helping convince the extreme anti Vaccers, it totally does the opposite!


----------



## Tjf1967

wonderpony said:


> I keep saying that we are all in this great experiment, but I am starting to get tired of it.
> 
> WTF do I do about the fact that I know that one of my coworkers is unvaxxed, had a family member that died of COVID this past week, was probably in contact with a bunch of other family members because of the funeral, who I am guessing are antivax and I have another coworker that will be sitting with her in a shared space, although 6 feet apart???? At least Cornell is making masks mandatory, but I still feel like this is a complete shit show. If I were my coworker who had no idea what was going on, I would be super pissed.


Wear a mask social distance and you have virtual zero chance of catching it. You sound a little fun shy. Can't stay home forever may as well jump in.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> Also, fucking get vaccinated, Johnny. Christ.


Perfect example of what I was talking about.


----------



## MC2

raisingarizona said:


> I totally agree, The extreme lefts shaming, virtue signaling and even down right shit talking isn’t helping convince the extreme anti Vaccers, it totally does the opposite!


How about this to convince extreme anti-vaxxers:

Most of the “leaders” of the anti-vax movement are out-of-work actors who go to rallies 5 days a week and have no visible income:


You guys are getting played: 








						Meet the media startups making big money on vaccine conspiracies
					

"This is a disinformation industry"




					fortune.com


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Perfect example of what I was talking about.


How is that talking down to him?

Let’s go back to a buddy of yours who had 12 beers in 2 hours and wants to drive home. Do you just say “Great, I’ll be sitting in prison next to you!” Or do you say something like “Get a fucking Uber, Joe, Christ”


----------



## Campgottagopee

Because that's what you do 


MC2 said:


> How is that talking down to him?


----------



## Tjf1967

MC2 said:


> How about this to convince extreme anti-vaxxers:
> 
> Most of the “leaders” of the anti-vax movement are out-of-work actors who go to rallies 5 days a week and have no visible income:
> 
> 
> You guys are getting played:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meet the media startups making big money on vaccine conspiracies
> 
> 
> "This is a disinformation industry"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fortune.com


There is no convincing them. Just ignore.. They have their reason. I don't agree. Carry on. Nothing else you can do.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Because that's what you do


Sounds like you are talking down to me right now and acting like you are better than me.

But that’s what I expect from you. Accusing other people of doing what you do to them.

Now is about the time in our conversation where you call me a “bully” even though you have done nothing but be aggressive towards me for no reason.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Lmao
You're not being a bully Mr Sensitive
TJ is correct. Read what he wrote.
Enjoy your day. I have to go buy shit ✌?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Why I got vaxed:
#1 my wife told me I had too 
#2 I felt it was my duty to do so 
#3 I wanted to go out to dinner, attend concerts, and go on trips as soon as I could.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Why I got vaxed:
> #1 my wife told me I had too
> #2 I felt it was my duty to do so
> #3 I wanted to go out to dinner, attend concerts, and go on trips as soon as I could.


Yeah, so anti-vaxxers aren’t motivated by #2, but it seems like #1 and #3 are fair game. People are still people. They will respond to:
• Social pressure (especially from loved ones) and
• Losing the ability to participate in their favorite activities (whether it’s concerts or SEC football games or whatever)


----------



## Harvey

Everyone was busy while I was snoozing. Guess I need a west coast moderator.



Tjf1967 said:


> Wear a mask social distance and you have virtual zero chance of catching it.



I disagree with this, unless unless the word "virtual" means "greater than."

Look it's pretty clear that no one is going to convince anyone to change their mind on this. I think everyone knows that. 

Time for another 24hr break. Too bad, I am appreciating the data posted.


----------



## raisingarizona

MC2 said:


> Sounds like you are talking down to me right now and acting like you are better than me.
> 
> But that’s what I expect from you. Accusing other people of doing what you do to them.
> 
> Now is about the time in our conversation where you call me a “bully” even though you have done nothing but be aggressive towards me for no reason.


This is the classic young, extreme liberal move, say some judgy insulting shit and then if anyone calls you out on it, pull the victim card.


----------



## Ripitz

Wait! Before we get locked out again, I’d like to point out that name calling is about as effective as injecting bleach.


----------



## G.ski

Sorry, I'm having a tough time calling any of this normal.

Unless "new normal" means abnormal.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> I’d like to point out that name calling is about as effective as injecting bleach.


Right. It's also like comparing not being vaxed to criminal activity. It's just plain stoooopid.


----------



## Sbob

G.ski said:


> Sorry, I'm having a tough time calling any of this normal.
> 
> Unless "new normal" means abnormal.







New Abbey normal ?


----------



## gorgonzola

Campgottagopee said:


> Why I got vaxed:
> #1 my wife told me I had too
> #2 I felt it was my duty to do so
> #3 I wanted to go out to dinner, attend concerts, and go on trips as soon as I could.


#1 Daughter at home with suppressed immune system (transplant recipient)
#2 Wanted to spring ski in Vermont and be legit
#3 Felt it was my duty to do so


----------



## Tjf1967

I have yet to hear anyone who got vaccinated say they regret it. Why is that.
I think the boss has a trigger finger on the lock button. Geez. Loosen up Sally. And for the record masks and social distancing most certainly work.


----------



## Campgottagopee

gorgonzola said:


> #1 Daughter at home with suppressed immune system (transplant recipient)
> #2 Wanted to spring ski in Vermont and be legit
> #3 Felt it was my duty to do so


Rt on


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I have yet to hear anyone who got vaccinated say they regret it. Why is that.


Legit
I'm hopeful that when we need to get vaxed again (whenever that is) I don't have to drive 45 minutes to get one. That's my only bitch, and I like to bitch!


----------



## Harvey

There are about 10 words you can avoid and this thread will stay open.

If you don't like the way the is forum is run, start your own and do it differently.

TGR is the wild west, go there, do whatever, no one will care. You only get moderated there if you criticize skiers who died in an avalanche.

If we are listing reasons we got vaxxed or not, I'm not sure. Maybe I'm a sheep.

#1 I had covid, it sucked
#2 I don't think the govt is organized enough to conspire against me
#3 I don't see what "they" would gain by tricking me into getting vaxxed
#4 I guess I'm a rule follower (haha mostly) and I like not wearing a mask outdoors
#5 Seems like you have a better chance of living to retirement age if you get it
#6 Skiing is awesome, I want to ski and share chairlifts


----------



## trackbiker

Campgottagopee said:


> Legit
> I'm hopeful that when we need to get vaxed again (whenever that is) I don't have to drive 45 minutes to get one. That's my only bitch, and I like to bitch!


I drove an hour to get mine when appointments were hard to get in the beginning. Now I could walk 5 minutes and get one.
I think it's ironic that the antivax people who are the most likely to bitch about mask wearing and social distancing are the ones that are lengthening the time to reach herd immunity so we can do away with mask wearing and social distancing.


----------



## Harvey

I waited until they called me and drove 15 mins.

All these people I knew were "workin it" getting on ten different lists. Seemed pointless to me. As long as vax wasn't being tossed in the garbage it's all good.


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> I waited until they called me and drove 15 mins.
> 
> All these people I knew were "workin it" getting on ten different lists. Seemed pointless to me. As long as vax wasn't being tossed in the garbage it's all good.


Mine was on my way to work. Easy peasy. I may bring my dad in for a third shot. No lines right now. Hell I think they are passing them out at the McDonald's drive though.


----------



## Harvey

I think the Sabrett's hot dog guy has them.


----------



## Campgottagopee

trackbiker said:


> I think it's ironic that the antivax people who are the most likely to bitch about mask wearing



True, but I got my vax asap and I bitched about wearing masks the whole entire time. I wear glasses and it pisses me off walking around with fogged up glasses!!!

Told you I like to bitch --- lol


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Drove to Potsdam for mine, after skiing Gore then Whiteface. I hadn't been to Potsdam since my first retirement, but I was happy to do that drive again.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Foggy glasses are the worst, but masks are surpisingly comfortable for skiing on cold days.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> #1 I had covid, it sucked



I had it too and it was nothing. That said, I was still nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, because my wife repeatedly would tell me people with covid can turn on a dime. That uneasy feeling def sucked.


----------



## Sbob

Well distressing news from Daughter in-law . She went on a vacation and while gone all of her co workers have tested positive for the variant. She’s back and feeling lousy, she had Covid and got the vaccine months later. Said she feels worse now than when she had Covid. Rapid test is negative but she’s waiting on another test. So far my son’s fine and no kid issues. Just hoping that this ski season doesn’t go to S$&t


----------



## MarzNC

The 1918 pandemic lasted into 1920. This pandemic is probably more widespread globally. It could last longer even with the availability of vaccines for rich countries. That said, there is little justification for lock downs in countries that have enough vaccine supply and a reasonable distribution approach. Every county had hiccups during the early stages of vaccination for the general public.

Aug. 1, 2021








What We Can Glean From Rare COVID-19 Reinfections


Lulu Garcia-Navarro talks with Amesh Adalja, an infectious disease doctor from Johns Hopkins University, about COVID-19 reinfections.




www.npr.org




_" . . .
ADALJA: COVID is going to be with us forever. This is a new respiratory virus that's established itself in the human population. It efficiently spreads. It's not something that can be eliminated. So we will have COVID cases. And it is going to become tamer, more like other respiratory viruses because of the impact of the vaccine. But it's going to be with us. There's no way that COVID magically goes back into bats, and we go back to 2019. And I think that reinfections are going to be something that people deal with, but they're mostly going to be mild. And I even think breakthrough infections in people who get vaccinated are something that most of us are going to experience at some period in time, and most of them are going to be mild because what the goal - the overarching goal - and I think many people forget this - was not to eradicate COVID-19 - that's not possible - but to defang it.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: So you feel that we're well on our way to that being the case and that perhaps in a few years, this might look different?

ADALJA: I do think we're well on the way to defanging and taming this virus. As more people get vaccinated and more people get natural immunity, we are going to see this turn itself into a seasonal coronavirus that we deal with year in and year out but aren't threatened in the way we have been in the past.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Dr. Amesh Adalja, infectious disease doctor at Johns Hopkins University, thank you very much._


----------



## Harvey

Sbob said:


> tested positive for the variant


Do they tell you if you have Delta? I was feeling crappy last week, kind of covidy (who knows) got tested, came up neg. I asked if they could tell me if I had Delta. They said no. I was hoping that if I was positive it would be Delta.


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> Well distressing new from Daughter in-law . She went on a vacation and while gone all of her co workers have tested positive for the variant. She’s back and feeling lousy, she had Covid and got the vaccine months later. Said she feels worse now than when she had Covid. Rapid test is negative but she’s waiting on another test. So far my son’s fine and no kid issues. Just hoping that this ski season doesn’t go to S$&t



Eep! I felt bad for one afternoon/evening a couple weeks ago and opted to do a PCR test. Felt fine by the next morning. Don't have results yet. Was towards the end of a driving trip that included a little time inside American Dream mall. Fully vaccinated by mid-June. Never had any reason to suspect COVID-19 during 2020 or the ski season thru mid-April.

Have heard some stories about people feeling bad, getting tested, and finding out they had a standard crud, not COVID-19. Hope she feels better soon in any case.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Do they tell you if you have Delta? I was feeling crappy last week, kind of covidy (who knows) got tested, came up neg. I asked if they could tell me if I had Delta. They say no. I was hoping that if I was positive it would be Delta.


No, genomic testing isn't standard. It's extra effort and expense. The states and CDC are sampling regularly to try to have a sense of the variants that are active in various areas.

For example, NC is working on a comprehensive surveillance program to have an organized approach to sampling for COVID-19 variants and other infectious diseases. My grad school keeps sending alumni news about pandemic related projects.









Carolina to lead $15 million statewide COVID-19 surveillance program funded by NC Policy Collaboratory - UNC Gillings School of Global Public Health


July 26, 2021 A new surveillance program, led by UNC-Chapel Hill's Dirk Dittmer, Amir Barzin and Audrey Pettifor, will collect, sequence and share data on SARS-CoV-2 samples from across the state, providing real-time information on variants circulating in North Carolina.




sph.unc.edu


----------



## MarzNC

Yale Medicine put together a good overview of Delta based on recent news from July. Bottom line is that vaccination is important because people of any age who are unvaccinated and get COVID-19 are at the highest risk of serious illness that leads to hospitalization, or death. Getting tested based on even very minor symptoms is worth while for both vaccinated and unvaccinated people, assuming they want to protect people around them. Unvaccinated seniors, say over 60, are at the highest risk of death as was the case in early 2020. Delta is that much more contagious then earlier strains of SARS-CoV-2 even when someone doesn't have symptoms.

Aug. 3, 2021








5 Things To Know About the Delta Variant


Delta was a highly contagious SARS-CoV-2 virus strain that was first identified in India, and also circulated in the United States and other countries. The vaccines have proven to be highly effective against Delta, but anyone who is unvaccinated is at risk for infection by the variant.




www.yalemedicine.org


----------



## D.B. Cooper

I understand why people don't want to get vaccinated. I disagree with them, but I understand. I think the following reasons can contribute to being hesitant:

people don't like being told what to do, especially by those of a different political opinion
governments have been deceptive before in ways almost unimaginable (Gulf of Tonkin)
the emergency approval was not unanimous
other medication was deemed, at the time of authorization, to be safe (thalydomide)
religious reasons
I put the list up there not for debate material, but because I think those can be reasons that are understandable......note that I did say I disagree with them.


----------



## Sbob

Do they tell you if you have Delta? I was feeling crappy last week, kind of covidy (who knows) got tested, came up neg. I asked if they could tell me if I had Delta. They said no. I was hoping that if I was positive it would be Delta.




Not sure yet, I’ll ask her. She’s a nurse in a rehab facility. The last time they had staff issues was when they got there second vaccinations ,half the staff was out for 3 days.

I’m curious as to how the patients fare vs first round that hit her facility.


----------



## Harvey

I heard this morning that 93% of new cases are delta so there is that. If true. (Gulf of Tonkin and all).


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I heard this morning that 93% of new cases are delta so there is that. If true. (Gulf of Tonkin and all).


OK, I missed something. If they can't tell you if it's the delta variant how do they know it's the delta variant?


----------



## Harvey

I think the 93% is some kind of general statistical estimate. They could probably tell every person, but it's probably expense and doesn't gain you much.

Just a guess.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I was hoping that if I was positive it would be Delta.


Why?


----------



## Campgottagopee

D.B. Cooper said:


> specially by those of a different political opinion



I don't disagree with this, but I don't get it. Imo this should be something to bring us together, not divide. As a country we should all want this shit gone ASAP.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Why?



You're teasing right?

Would you want to find out you got the same thing again, and were still susceptible to delta, or would you rather find out that a case of covid and two vaxes protected you somewhat, so that you felt a little sick but were basically fine? In the second case maybe now you won't get delta again, and maybe you be cool until epsilon comes along.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Campgottagopee said:


> I don't disagree with this, but I don't get it. Imo this should be something to bring us together, not divide. As a country we should all want this shit gone ASAP.


Just look at the math. 
That's all I got


----------



## tirolski

The SARS-CoV-2 ain’t gonna go away soon. 
SOB mutates as it’s what viruses do.
Folks are learning about it daily. 
Gotta be careful what media ya get exposed to as well as who yer around.
Should peter out eventually. 
Stay well.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I heard this morning that 93% of new cases are delta so there is that. If true. (Gulf of Tonkin and all).





Campgottagopee said:


> OK, I missed something. If they can't tell you if it's the delta variant how do they know it's the delta variant?



Individuals who get tested are not being told whether or not they have Delta. But for a batch of tests, it's possible to sample and see what variants are found. So it's possible to have evidence that a given location has a lot of Delta. Does that help?

Back in 2020, there were tests done on wastewater samples that had been collected in Italy months before COVID-19 caused hospitals to be overwhelmed. Provided evidence that SARS-CoV-2 was in Europe by late 2019.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> Does that help?



Yes.

Thanks MarzNC --- I asked my wife and she gave me the same answer you did. I know you're right, because she always is ?‍♂️


----------



## Harvey

I could find no proof that this was true (with 2 mins of google lol):


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423011131841470470
If true, seems like it might not hold up in court.

I'm wondering about the insurance companies. I'd think if you rack up half a mil in bills for covid and you turned down the vax, they might push back. Surprised we haven't heard more about that.


----------



## Brownski

Come on man; that’s obviously bullshit. Be real.


----------



## Harvey

I didn't say it was true or I thought it was true or whatever. Like I said I couldn't find any proof of it.

Will be interesting to see what private companies do in "at will" states.


----------



## Tjf1967

With the labor shortage reality is they won't do anything


----------



## Tjf1967

Funny we need people to work. Our borders are busting with people who want to work. Yet we can't figure out how to get them in working and paying taxes.


----------



## Harvey

Tjf1967 said:


> labor shortage


Good point.


----------



## Scrundy

Brownski said:


> Come on man; that’s obviously bullshit. Be real.


And definitely against the law


----------



## Scrundy

Tjf1967 said:


> Funny we need people to work. Our borders are busting with people who want to work. Yet we can't figure out how to get them in working and paying taxes.


Labor shortage? I believe we have a shortage of people willing to work. Why work when they get paid more not to work, can’t really blame them. How can you know the people crossing the border want to work? 
FYI I’m not against immigration just would like to see it done legally, so we know they want to work.


----------



## Harvey

Scrundy said:


> I believe we have a shortage of people willing to work.



Sounds like labor shortage to me.

We've definitely come up against the "enhanced" unemployment issue at our company. One employee's husband got pretty cranky that we offer his wife her job back. IMO it's short sighted not to take a job because unemployment pays more at this moment. 

Be very interesting to see what effect the expiration of it will have. I guess we will see.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Nursing home to workers: Get vaccine or lose your job


NEW YORK (AP) — The U. S. nursing home industry’s resistance to forcing workers to get vaccinated against COVID-19 for fear that too many of them might quit began to crack this week when its biggest player announced its employees must get the shot to keep their jobs.




cnycentral.com


----------



## Harvey

That article ^^ sites two examples where about 5% quit.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> That article ^^ sites two examples where about 5% quit.


Yep, there are people who will quit. But the list of companies that are requiring vaccination or very regular testing as an alternative is getting longer. There are even a few unions supporting vaccination.









After Months of Avoiding the Vaccine Issue, Companies Begin to Mandate (Published 2021)


Tyson and Microsoft were the latest to require employees to be vaccinated. Other major employers have tried less sweeping approaches.




www.nytimes.com













Why Tyson's employee vaccine requirement stands out
 

Meat producer Tyson Foods' announcement Tuesday that it will require all its workers to be fully vaccinated against Covid-19 by November 1 is hardly the norm when it comes to vaccine rules for frontline employees.




www.cnn.com





The list of colleges requiring vaccination for faculty and staff, as well as students is also growing. The alternative is usually weekly testing.

What some small business owners said to their employees is that if everyone gets vaccinated, then they wouldn't require masking at work. Of course, in a location with low vaccination rates and rampant Delta, that could change. But even if it doesn't the small business is probably less likely to have staff out for weeks with COVID-19.


----------



## MarzNC

People in states that are at risk of overwhelming more than one hospital are starting to understand that COVID-19 didn't go away. Vaccinations are up in the states with the lowest rates as of late July 2021.

Here's an example:








Arkansas vaccination rate sees dramatic increase


CONWAY, Ark. – Monday, Arkansas saw a dramatic increase of more than 30,000 new doses of the COVID-19 vaccine given out across the state. But even after that influx of shots, the fight …




www.nwahomepage.com


----------



## MarzNC

Related to the question of whether or not an employer can require a COVID-19 vaccination. There are situations where the answer is "yes."









What Can Employers Do to Require or Encourage Workers to Get a COVID-19 Vaccine?


This fact sheet reviews what employers can and cannot do under current rules and guidance to require or encourage their workers to get vaccinated against COVID-19.




www.kff.org













Yes, employers can require workers get vaccinated—and it might help them attract top talent


For months, many employers have held off on requiring the vaccine. Now, as public health and economic pressures mount, some are starting to.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Yep, there are people who will quit.



I thought 5% was surprisingly low, considering the labor market now.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I thought 5% was surprisingly low, considering the labor market now.


I would guess that like everything else about COVID-19, there will be a wide range depending on region, profession, and how much people are being paid. Have heard interviews with people who don't ever intend to return to the hospitality industry for any amount of money. Meaning people who managed to find a pretty decent job doing something completely different.

Many people are scared of change. The people who are quick to leave because of a vaccination requirement may well have been thinking about going elsewhere since before the pandemic started. It would be the last straw that would make them take the leap, especially if there isn't a new job already lined up. When COVID-19 is making everything seem so unpredictable, switching jobs could seem less scary.


----------



## sig

MarzNC said:


> Have heard interviews with people who don't ever intend to return to the hospitality industry for any amount of money. Meaning people who managed to find a pretty decent job doing something completely different.


I spent 15 years bartending, its a grind. my guess is some of these jumped to better paying or similar paying jobs just to have nights and weekends off.


----------



## sibhusky

Why I jumped at the chance to get the shots:

#1- I had 8 classmates and two childhood friends lose parents to it, along with my former boss's wife and my 1st steady boyfriend's wife. And that was all pre-Delta.
#2 - I want life to return to normal and dealing with masks skiing last winter pretty much ruined the skiing for me. When jerks weren't masking in the locker rooms and in the liftline right next to me or wanting to ride next to me the discussions put a damper on the whole day.
#3 - I really wanted to spend time with my daughter without worrying about weather, ventilation, what the heck friends she'd been hanging with and THEIR habits, etc. Fortunately, she wanted to see her parents, too, and got vaccinated within days of when I did. Plus I really wanted to hug her hard.

I had a friend who had polio as a child. The vaccine saved my childhood. 2 adults I knew got it as well.

I own probably $500 worth of masks at this point, for various kinds of activities, and have no issue wearing them. I also now own 2 very pricey pairs of ABOM goggles. So, I'm ready, but hoping that we get over this stuff by next winter.


----------



## Harvey

College students are buying fake vaccine cards to skirt admission requirements


The FBI is cracking down on similar schemes elsewhere




www.nj.com


----------



## MarzNC

Canadian citizens don't always follow rules.









2 travelers who used fake vaccine cards to enter Canada from U.S. fined nearly $16,000


The airline passengers also submitted fraudulent test results, Canadian officials said.




www.nbcnews.com


----------



## MC2

Good thing you put me on a time out from this thread or I might have discussed politics ?


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Come on man; that’s obviously bullshit. Be real.


That tweet got so much traction, Lowe's felt they had to respond.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423344564178493444


----------



## Brownski

It’s so dumb. Why can’t people just be sensible and decent? I guess it’s not as bad as celebrating the death of somebody that was anti-mask or anti- vax or whatever, which seems to still be a thing so…


----------



## raisingarizona

sibhusky said:


> Why I jumped at the chance to get the shots:
> 
> #1- I had 8 classmates and two childhood friends lose parents to it, along with my former boss's wife and my 1st steady boyfriend's wife. And that was all pre-Delta.
> #2 - I want life to return to normal and dealing with masks skiing last winter pretty much ruined the skiing for me. When jerks weren't masking in the locker rooms and in the liftline right next to me or wanting to ride next to me the discussions put a damper on the whole day.
> #3 - I really wanted to spend time with my daughter without worrying about weather, ventilation, what the heck friends she'd been hanging with and THEIR habits, etc. Fortunately, she wanted to see her parents, too, and got vaccinated within days of when I did. Plus I really wanted to hug her hard.
> 
> I had a friend who had polio as a child. The vaccine saved my childhood. 2 adults I knew got it as well.
> 
> I own probably $500 worth of masks at this point, for various kinds of activities, and have no issue wearing them. I also now own 2 very pricey pairs of ABOM goggles. So, I'm ready, but hoping that we get over this stuff by next winter.


The crowded runs and long lift lines were my #2 last season. If that doesn’t chill this year or next I won’t be skiing here for much longer. It was that bad imo, I’d rather quit skiing then deal with that. It ruins everything for me.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> It’s so dumb. Why can’t people just be sensible and decent? I guess it’s not as bad as celebrating the death of somebody that was anti-mask or anti- vax or whatever, which seems to still be a thing so…


Like some of the hateful posters on AZ. Some people are so extreme!


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> Like some of the hateful posters on AZ. Some people are so extreme!


Holy shit!! AZ is still a thing? Wow


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> The crowded runs and long lift lines were my #2 last season. If that doesn’t chill this year or next I won’t be skiing here for much longer. It was that bad imo, I’d rather quit skiing then deal with that. It ruins everything for me.


Word 
When I ski, I ski until it gets crowded. Here at GP, for me, crowded is having to wait in line for more than 3 groups. If I can't lap the place I'll head to the bar. I mean, it opens at 11 and someone has to help them take the barstools off the bar.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> Word
> When I ski, I ski until it gets crowded. Here at GP, for me, crowded is having to wait in line for more than 3 groups. If I can't lap the place I'll head to the bar. I mean, it opens at 11 and someone has to help them take the barstools off the bar.


11 is kind of late tho no? ?


----------



## Harvey

I just checked out AZ. 

Seems like their "VT skier visits" thread is the equivalent of this thread, the place to get angry about the state of things.

I remained convinced:

You really can't change people's opinions by posting your opinion on the internet.


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> I just checked out AZ.
> 
> Seems like their "VT skier visits" thread is the equivalent of this thread, the place to get angry about the state of things.
> 
> I remained convinced:
> 
> You really can't change people's opinions by posting your opinion on the internet.


The points not to change their options its to fire them up and watch the act like buttholes.


----------



## Sbob

Harvey said:


> I just checked out AZ.
> 
> Seems like their "VT skier visits" thread is the equivalent of this thread, the place to get angr



Lol not even remotely close.

Disagree 
A civilized conversation can sway people if you don’t attack them.


----------



## Brownski

Tjf1967 said:


> The points not to change their options its to fire them up and watch the act like buttholes.


Sig worthy


----------



## sibhusky

raisingarizona said:


> The crowded runs and long lift lines were my #2 last season. If that doesn’t chill this year or next I won’t be skiing here for much longer. It was that bad imo, I’d rather quit skiing then deal with that. It ruins everything for me.


We dId have record crowds IasI season. There was one day that after 20 minutes I had moved less than 20 feet. I returned to the locker room. Vert for the day: 10 feet. I've never done that before.

I just feel like Whitefish is suddenly "in" and they will go back to Vail soon. I'm hoping we are going to have an absolutely brutal winter.


----------



## Harvey

Sbob said:


> Lol not even remotely close.
> 
> Disagree
> A civilized conversation can sway people if you don’t attack them.


Ha! You're right. I changed my mind.

That graphic from the NY Post Broski posted impacted me. And some of the stats from Marz and MC.

What has changed your mind? Anyone...


----------



## Harvey

I know skiing was "popular" last year, but I didn't feel like I did much waiting in lines.

One day, Christmas week at Gore I did. The price of skiing with my over scheduled kid I guess.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> That graphic from the NY Post Broski posted impacted me. And some of the stats from Marz and MC


I didn’t post that. Thought it might be too political. I texted it to you.


----------



## G.ski

raisingarizona said:


> Like some of the hateful posters on AZ. Some people are so extreme!


Pissing me off those folks.


----------



## tirolski

Tjf1967 said:


> The points not to change their options its to fire them up and watch the act like buttholes.


Illusions exist in folks heads.

All these balls are actually brown (zoom in.) from
      interestingasfuck


----------



## tirolski

Figured this goes here.
She has cabins and lives near Stowe so there’s that.








The New Normal


~ A new time is ringing in ~ There is so much talk of the “new normal” and it is coming! But it WON’T look the way THEY think it will with micro chips, vaccines and complete surveillance. WE are ringing in the new time, a time of massive change, that is desperately needed. A time truly when OUR...




www.churchoftheraginglight.com


----------



## MC2

tirolski said:


> Figured this goes here.
> She has cabins and lives near Stowe so there’s that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The New Normal
> 
> 
> ~ A new time is ringing in ~ There is so much talk of the “new normal” and it is coming! But it WON’T look the way THEY think it will with micro chips, vaccines and complete surveillance. WE are ringing in the new time, a time of massive change, that is desperately needed. A time truly when OUR...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.churchoftheraginglight.com


Come on, dude. Seriously?


----------



## Harvey

Am I really going to say this: I can't make those ^^ balls look brown. ? 

That other lady on Twitter was fake news, this looks like a more credible source. Vax a condition of employment after 10/1:









United Airlines to Require All U.S. Employees Be Vaccinated Against Covid-19


The company said its 67,000 U.S. employees need to be vaccinated this fall, the first major airline to take this step as the Delta variant drives a nationwide increase in Covid-19 infections.




www.wsj.com


----------



## MarzNC

The list of companies requiring employees to mask up while working is growing. At least in the southeast. My experience in Costco last week was that 30-50% of the customers and perhaps 50% of the employees were masked. It was a lot more crowded than I expected mid-afternoon on a weekday.

Latest list for requiring vaccinations. Of course, medical exemptions will be possible with proper documentation.

August 9, 2021








Covid vaccine mandates sweep across corporate America as delta variant spurs action


The U.S. government may not require that everyone get Covid vaccines, but large employers are stepping into the void.




www.cnbc.com





The U.S. military are moving towards requiring vaccination.

August 9, 2021








COVID vaccines to be required for military under new US plan


WASHINGTON (AP) — Members of the U.S. military will be required to get the COVID-19 vaccine beginning next month under a plan laid out by the Pentagon Monday and endorsed by President Joe Biden. In memos distributed to all troops, top Pentagon leaders said the vaccine is a necessary step to...




apnews.com





A private university in NC is quite serious about requiring student vaccination. Classes start around August 16 in NC. Took years to get used to that idea after moving from NYC in high school.

July 15, 2021








Wake Forest University to begin 'removing' students with no proof of COVID-19 vaccine from enrolled courses and housing in August


The private university made the announcement Wednesday saying it will begin unenrolling students without the required documentation on August 1.




www.wfmynews2.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> At least in the southeast. My experience in Costco last week was that 30-50% of the customers and perhaps 50% of the employees were masked. It was a lot more crowded than I expected mid-afternoon on a weekday.


Costco around here was giving out food samples last week. Not may folks in masks, wasn’t crowded.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Costco around here was giving out food samples last week. Not may folks in masks, wasn’t crowded.


There were samples in Raleigh too.

I also went on Tuesday morning last week during the senior hour. Mostly just to satisfy my curiosity. Not as many seniors as there were back in April 2020. I went to Costco weekly on the same morning during senior hours for a couple months. The changes over time were interesting. Last week most seniors were masked but not all. A fair number of seniors in the Triangle moved south when they retired. Tend to be pretty well off and highly educated. My mother was ahead of the crowd back in the early 1970s when she decided Chapel Hill would be better than NYC as a retirement home.

There was plenty of toilet paper.


----------



## Ripitz

MarzNC said:


> There was plenty of toilet paper.


Like a shit ton of it??


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> There was plenty of toilet paper.


? really is back to normal.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> A fair number of seniors in the Triangle moved south when they retired. Tend to be pretty well off and highly educated. My mother was ahead of the crowd back in the early 1970s when she decided Chapel Hill would be better than NYC as a retirement home.


Triangle area used to have the most PhD’s per square mile in the USA. Almost moved there but they wanted me to start before Christmas a while back. My grandmother came to live with us before she got a new hip before Christmas and I didn’t want to move at that time.
It’s seemed like a nice place and people.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Triangle area used to have the most PhD’s per square mile in the USA. Almost moved there but they wanted me to start before Christmas a while back. My grandmother came to live with us before she got a new hip before Christmas and I didn’t want to move at that time.
> It’s seemed like a nice place and people.


Still a lot of PhD's, plus MDs, JDs, MBAs, and techie types. Our neighborhood is full of them. My parents, myself, and my husband all had/have PhDs. I went to UNC-Chapel Hill for undergrad and grad school. What there wasn't in the 1970s was traffic or a wide selection of restaurants. If you wanted anything besides pizza, burgers, fried chicken, or steak, pretty much had to drive to Atlanta or DC. Although the bigger culture shock moving from NYC was that the airport was tiny. There was one small terminal that had only 4 gates! Chapel Hill had 4 traffic lights in the entire town back then. Although Chapel Hill hasn't changed that much, the rest of the Triangle is very different. The Triangle is quite different from most of the rest of North Carolina. Can be hard to find a native Tarheel.

UNC-Chapel Hill has a lot of researchers working on assorted projects related to the pandemic. One of studies I'm more curious about is following college students and young adults. A local UNC grad helped develop Moderna.

July 6, 2021








Study testing how well COVID-19 vaccine prevents spread of SARS-CoV-2 among university students expands to include young adults not in college - UNC Gillings School of Global Public Health


July 6, 2021 The Prevent COVID U study, which launched in late March 2021 to evaluate SARS-CoV-2 infection and transmission among university students vaccinated with the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine, has expanded beyond the college setting. The study is now enrolling young adults ages 18 through 29...




sph.unc.edu





Jan. 27, 2021








Orange County native and lead scientist for Moderna vaccine honored by county


UNC alumna Dr. Kizzmekia Corbett is one of the lead scientists for Moderna's coronavirus vaccine. The Board of Commissioners honored the Orange County native by declaring Jan. 20 "Dr. Kizzmekia S. Corbett Day."




www.dailytarheel.com


----------



## MarzNC

Seems pretty clear that universities will be using a some combination of vaccination, indoor masking, and/or regular testing (usually weekly) to try to stay in control of community spread when classes start in a few weeks. No one wants to have to close a campus within weeks of students arriving, as happened for the 2020-21 fall semester at several large campuses. Everyone prefers to have in-person classes at this point. While there are close to 700 campuses that will require vaccination, there are other approaches being set up. This article has examples of both carrots and sticks (incentives, disincentives).

August 9, 2021








At This West Virginia Campus, There’s a $750 Fee for Unvaccinated Students


Rather than offering a reward for students to get vaccinated, this college will charge a fee for those who won’t.




www.chronicle.com


----------



## raisingarizona

MarzNC said:


> Seems pretty clear that universities will be using a some combination of vaccination, indoor masking, and/or regular testing (usually weekly) to try to stay in control of community spread when classes start in a few weeks. No one wants to have to close a campus within weeks of students arriving, as happened for the 2020-21 fall semester at several large campuses. Everyone prefers to have in-person classes at this point. While there are close to 700 campuses that will require vaccination, there are other approaches being set up. This article has examples of both carrots and sticks (incentives, disincentives).
> 
> August 9, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At This West Virginia Campus, There’s a $750 Fee for Unvaccinated Students
> 
> 
> Rather than offering a reward for students to get vaccinated, this college will charge a fee for those who won’t.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chronicle.com


Yeah, good luck with that. The junk is everywhere right now.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> Yeah, good luck with that. The junk is everywhere right now.


When the vaccination rate is high, meaning well over 80% and preferably 90%, there will obviously be some people who get COVID-19. But for the small percentage of people who are vaccinated and end up with symptoms, they won't be at risk of ending up in the hospital with serious illness. That was the case for vaccinated people who were in Provincetown in early July. Only 7 people were hospitalized and I think two were vaccinated. That's 2 out of 60,000 people, with perhaps 75% fully vaccinated, and few people taking any precautions like social distancing or masking.

There were colleges that successfully had in-person classes in the northeast during the 2020-21 school year. Mandatory testing multiple times a week for everyone who went to campus worked. Granted these were small private colleges, but the point is that when a particular community is cooperative, life doesn't have to be that different from how things were pre-pandemic.


----------



## MarzNC

Jeremy Lin was fully vaccinated before he left for his annual tour in China in early August. He tested negative twice before leaving the USA. But had minor symptoms during mandatory quarantine in Shanghai and tested positive. He was treated in a hospital to be extra safe. Delta is clearly very sneaky and contagious. Jeremy is very careful but can only do so much on a long trans-Pacific flight. Usually end up on the plane for at least 12 hours.

August 7, 2021








Jeremy Lin tests positive for COVID-19, in quarantine in Shanghai


Jeremy Lin said he is fully vaccinated, which is why he believes his case is a mild one.




sports.yahoo.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

We were going to the state fair but now they're requiring masks. Screw that. Damn.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> We were going to the state fair but now they're requiring masks. Screw that. Damn.


When we were kids the folks didn’t ever take us to the state fair. Said something bout catchin polio.
I've been to the state fair 3 or 4 times in total. 
Last time we went we took the bus and just hung around a beer tent with picnic tables talkin and hearin music. 

I can do that at home easier.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> When we were kids the folks didn’t ever take us to the state fair. Said something bout catchin polio.
> I've been to the state fair 3 or 4 times in total.
> Last time we went we took the bus and just hung around a beer tent with picnic tables talkin and hearin music.
> 
> I can do that at home easier.



My parents never took us either.
Wife and I enjoy going for the music, food, beer, and people watching. I enjoy the Center of Progress Building for the gadgets. Love me some good gadets.


----------



## gorgonzola




----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Wife and I enjoy going for the music, food, beer, and people watching. I enjoy the Center of Progress Building for the gadgets. Love me some good gadets.


Yup.
The animals and plants were interesting too. 
Also saw Doobie Bros and BB King.
I like people, I just don’t like a lot of people.


----------



## Ripitz

The Dutchess County Fair is the best fair in the state. Everyone should know that.


----------



## wonderpony

I have just kind of, sort of accepted the fact that I will be exposed. I have the unvaccinated coworker, who had the funeral this past weekend for her MIL who died of COVID. I have an incoming international grad student who is unvaccinated, but at least has asked for information about getting the vaccine. At least my coworker seems to be pretty consistent about wearing a mask and I can close my office door. "It's going to get worse before it gets better."


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> The Dutchess County Fair is the best fair in the state. Everyone knows that.


I have visited this and agree. We had a great time.


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> I have just kind of, sort of accepted the fact that I will be exposed. I have the unvaccinated coworker, who had the funeral this past weekend for her MIL who died of COVID. I have an incoming international grad student who is unvaccinated, but at least has asked for information about getting the vaccine. At least my coworker seems to be pretty consistent about wearing a mask and I can close my office door. "It's going to get worse before it gets better."


Unfortunately, that is the reality for people who are working and need to do some stuff in person. The best that you could do is using masking and distancing as much as practical to avoid close contact indoors.

Any idea what percentage of the students are vaccinated? Will there be regular testing for people who are unvaccinated?

Based on how students registered for the fall semester, apparently 90% said they were vaccinated for UNC-Chapel Hill. That's better than the faculty, who were at 82% last week. The staff were the lowest, at 55%.


----------



## MarzNC

Towards the end of my trip in July, there was one afternoon/evening I didn't feel great. Took a nap, which I never do unless I'm sick. Felt fine in the morning. Since there is a small private lab near my house that does free testing, I did a PCR test based on a nasal swab while sitting in the car. The timing from the start of symptoms seemed about right after I got home. Result was negative. But I still stayed a bit farther away from my husband for a week or so. We have a big house so that's pretty easy.


----------



## wonderpony

Cornell has a great dashboard. Total vaccinate on campus is 94%. If you hover over the percentage of people on campus who are vaccinated, it shows the breakdown of those on campus. Staff are up to 90%. That's where we were lagging. Students have to be vaccinated. 

Maybe I don't have to be so much in panic mode. Other than the fact that I ran into a guy I talk with occasionally on the road. His daughter is at BU. Someone in her group tested positive and they all had to quarantine. 

I kinda sorta think that breakthroughs are our newer new normal. I have always ramped up the echinacea tea when the students came back in the spring, but it may be a year round thing.


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> Cornell has a great dashboard. Total vaccinate on campus is 94%. If you hover over the percentage of people on campus who are vaccinated, it shows the breakdown of those on campus. Staff are up to 90%. That's where we were lagging. Students have to be vaccinated.


Very nice Dashboard! Noticed that yesterday there were over 500 tests and only 2 positive. That's a good sign.

For UNC-Chapel Hill the faculty are behind compared to students too. But it's the staff who really need to be pushed. I wonder if they are counting the food service employees since they work for the company with the food service contract. And then there are the staff who work at the Greek houses.

Haven't looked at college Dashboards since last fall. Be interesting to see how many include vaccination stats.


----------



## MarzNC

Video with the British view of Americans being able to drive to Canada again. Mostly interviews with Canadians near Niagra Falls. Also shows what an American family had to do in order to go from Buffalo to their cottage in Ontario.

August 9, 2021








Canada opens its border to vaccinated Americans


We asked Canadians how they feel about the move, which lifts a pandemic-long restriction.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Thacheronix

Pre-existing condition: belief in your own immortality








Fitness enthusiast, 42, who rejected vaccine, dies of Covid


John Eyers had been climbing mountains four weeks before his death in intensive care




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Brownski

I don’t think you intended it this way so don’t take this as an attack but I don’t think all these “covid skeptic ignoramus gets covid and dies” stories are very helpful. The implication is that he deserved it. You could probably find a case of somebody who was first in line for the vaccine, got covid later on and unfortunately passed away. It wouldn’t prove anything.


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> I don’t think you intended it this way so don’t take this as an attack but I don’t think all these “covid skeptic ignoramus gets covid and dies” stories are very helpful. The implication is that he deserved it. You could probably find a case of somebody who was first in line for the vaccine, got covid later on and unfortunately passed away. It wouldn’t prove anything.


Weird that the story offended you so much that you felt compelled to post this.


----------



## Tjf1967

We are going back down the rabbit Whole because people don't want to help each other. Wonderful world we live in.


----------



## trackbiker

Tjf1967 said:


> We are going back down the rabbit whole because people don't want to help each other. Wonderful world we live in.


I find it ironic that people most opposed to mask wearing, lock downs, and social distancing are the ones who are extending the mask wearing, social distancing, and potential lock downs.


----------



## marcski

Brownski said:


> I don’t think you intended it this way so don’t take this as an attack but I don’t think all these “covid skeptic ignoramus gets covid and dies” stories are very helpful. The implication is that he deserved it. You could probably find a case of somebody who was first in line for the vaccine, got covid later on and unfortunately passed away. It wouldn’t prove anything.



Of course they didn't deserve it, I think the jist of his post was that all of the science and statistics point to the fact that the vaccines work and are very, very safe. All logic would lead any reasonable person to get the vaccine.


----------



## Tjf1967

trackbiker said:


> I find it ironic that people most opposed to mask wearing, lock downs, and social distancing are the ones who are extending the mask wearing, social distancing, and potential lock downs.


I'm not picking up what your putting down.


----------



## Tjf1967

Tjf1967 said:


> I'm not picking up what your putting down.


I figured it out. Lol I'm not that bright


----------



## Tjf1967

I can tell you this. When someone tells me to do something I have the "you can go shit in a hat attitude". When someone asks for help I'm all in.


----------



## Brownski

Tjf1967 said:


> I can tell you this. When someone tells me to do something I have the "you can go shit in a hat attitude". When someone asks for help I'm all in.


You’re not alone. I’m in sales and I don’t suck at it. You know what never works? Calling your customer stupid.


----------



## trackbiker

Tjf1967 said:


> I'm not picking up what your putting down.


If all of the people who refuse to get the vaccine got the vaccine the mask wearing and social distancing would go away sooner and lock downs would not be as likely to happen again. They are ones who are causing "herd immunity" to be delayed but they're the ones bitching about masks and social distancing the most. They're also the ones least likely to practice mask wearing and social distancing.
The Bethlehem Musik Fest is going on right now and I usually go with my daughter and son-in-law and was really looking forward to it this year. Now I'm thinking that won't happen this weekend with a 9 month old grandson who cannot get vaccinated yet.


----------



## G.ski

Brownski said:


> You’re not alone. I’m in sales and I don’t suck at it. You know what never works? Calling your customer stupid.


That's what I call the "buy it asshole" sales pitch.


----------



## ScottySkis

US study: Moderna vaccine far better than Pfizer at preventing Delta infection


Mayo Clinic research finds both inoculations have dropped in efficacy, but Pfizer's decline has been much steeper; both remain highly effective against severe illness




www.timesofisrael.com





Moderna seems much better against delta fyi


----------



## MarzNC

A recent "scary" story circulating around the English speaking world is that vaccinated and unvaccinated people are equally contagious. That isn't true from what I can tell. Partially because the amount of time that someone who is vaccinated has enough virus in their nose to be contagious is shorter, meaning by days.

Here's the latest about breakthrough cases and Delta. I expect new info to shoe up weekly, if not more often. That's the flip side of a pandemic with scientists paying attention all over the world because cases are increasing everywhere.

August 11, 2021








What to Know About Breakthrough Infections and the Delta Variant


Scientific understanding of the coronavirus variant is changing quickly. Here’s a recap of the most important findings.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## MarzNC

ScottySkis said:


> US study: Moderna vaccine far better than Pfizer at preventing Delta infection
> 
> 
> Mayo Clinic research finds both inoculations have dropped in efficacy, but Pfizer's decline has been much steeper; both remain highly effective against severe illness
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moderna seems much better aginyt delta fyi


Thanks for the heads up. Here are a couple other related links. The thought that comes to mind is that the study period was Jan-July 2021. The restrictions related to mask usage in MN were quite different in Jan-May compared to Jun-Jul. Does seem to be evidence that Moderna did better during the later period than Pfizer. I'll read the pre-print more carefully later.

August 10, 2021








New data suggests Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines may be less effective against Delta


A senior Biden official called the preprint study "a wakeup call."




www.axios.com





August 6, 2021
Comparison of two highly-effective mRNA vaccines for COVID-19 during periods of Alpha and Delta variant prevalence


https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v1.full.pdf


----------



## CNY Skier

MarzNC said:


> A recent "scary" story circulating around the English speaking world is that vaccinated and unvaccinated people are equally contagious. That isn't true from what I can tell. Partially because the amount of time that someone who is vaccinated has enough virus in their nose to be contagious is shorter, meaning by days.
> 
> Here's the latest about breakthrough cases and Delta. I expect new info to shoe up weekly, if not more often. That's the flip side of a pandemic with scientists paying attention all over the world because cases are increasing everywhere.
> 
> August 11, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What to Know About Breakthrough Infections and the Delta Variant
> 
> 
> Scientific understanding of the coronavirus variant is changing quickly. Here’s a recap of the most important findings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


No, cases are _not_ increasing everywhere...in many countries "cases" (whatever the hell that means anymore) are decreasing as are deaths. What perplexes me most is that we are having a surge in the US _in the middle of summer_. This goes against the normal respiratory disease pattern. I'm starting to wonder if the vaccines are the main driver of the increased "cases".


----------



## CNY Skier

Brownski said:


> I don’t think you intended it this way so don’t take this as an attack but I don’t think all these “covid skeptic ignoramus gets covid and dies” stories are very helpful. The implication is that he deserved it. You could probably find a case of somebody who was first in line for the vaccine, got covid later on and unfortunately passed away. It wouldn’t prove anything.


Indeed. There are always outliers in human health...the child who develops cancer, the fitness buff that has a heart attack, etc. However, if we look at this in a comprehensive matter (i.e. big picture), the view is pretty clear. Covid is most harmful for people with comorbidities: obesity, vitamin deficiency, old age, etc. For whatever reason public health officials seem to be afraid to advise the public to get healthy. Instead, they say "take the shot".


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> Indeed. There are always outliers in human health...the child who develops cancer, the fitness buff that has a heart attack, etc. However, if we look at this in a comprehensive matter (i.e. big picture), the view is pretty clear. Covid is most harmful for people with comorbidities: obesity, vitamin deficiency, old age, etc. For whatever reason public health officials seem to be afraid to advise the public to get healthy. Instead, they say "take the shot".


The big picture is this shit can take anyone out. We don't get to pick our symptoms. I've said this before and here it is again. A buddy of mine who is in amazing shape had covid, it put him in the ICU for a week. He thought he was going to die. He'll be the first to tell you to get the shot.


----------



## MC2

CNY Skier said:


> . What perplexes me most is that we are having a surge in the US _in the middle of summer_. This goes against the normal respiratory disease pattern.


Almost as if the disease spreads more easily indoors and, since the US has more air conditioning than other countries, it spikes in the hotter areas during the summer.


----------



## Tjf1967

My gut tells me it's spreading so quickly because people are running around like drunken sailors.


----------



## sig

Tjf1967 said:


> My gut tells me it's spreading so quickly because people are running around like drunken sailors.


guilty. I have cooled my jets a little. been laying low at my camp or drinking in outdoor bars. the past year was hard on us bar flies.


----------



## MC2

Tjf1967 said:


> My gut tells me it's spreading so quickly because people are running around like drunken sailors.


I’m running around like a drunken sailor (bars, concerts, restaurants, etc.). 

I was told that, once I got vaccinated, things would “return to normal”, so I’m operating under the belief that the vaccine will keep the virus away and, in the off chance that I do get infected, the vaccine will make it so that I don’t get really sick and that I am
not contagious for as long.

As far as I can tell, the vaccine has effectively made a very dangerous, very contagious disease into something probably less dangerous than the yearly flu (barring the chance of further, vaccine-resistant mutation).

I say vaccinated people should feel free to act like drunken sailors. And to the unvaccinated: may the odds be forever in your favor.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> I say vaccinated people should feel free to act like drunken sailors. And to the unvaccinated: may the odds be forever in your favor.



Concur

I'm not down with the whole show me your papers thing. It should be left up to the people, imho.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

MC2 said:


> I’m running around like a drunken sailor (bars, concerts, restaurants, etc.).
> 
> I was told that, once I got vaccinated, things would “return to normal”, so I’m operating under the belief that the vaccine will keep the virus away and, in the off chance that I do get infected, the vaccine will make it so that I don’t get really sick and that I am
> not contagious for as long.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the vaccine has effectively made a very dangerous, very contagious disease into something probably less dangerous than the yearly flu (barring the chance of further, vaccine-resistant mutation).
> 
> I say vaccinated people should feel free to act like drunken sailors. And to the unvaccinated: may the odds be forever in your favor.


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Brownski

Yeah I agree as far as that goes but I think one of the side effects of the pervasive vilifying of the unvaccinated is that un-vaxed people are going maskless. I would just like to see the temperature lowered and hear more from the real scientists that developed them and are working towards full FDA approval. That would do more to win people over than pissing on their shoes.


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> Yeah I agree as far as that goes but I think one of the side effects of the pervasive vilifying of the unvaccinated is that un-vaxed people are going maskless. I would just like to see the temperature lowered and hear more from the real scientists that developed them and are working towards full FDA approval. That would do more to win people over than pissing on their shoes.


We have heard from the real scientists. The answers are clear.


----------



## Brownski

x10003q said:


> We have heard from the real scientists. The answers are clear.


I am fully satisfied. I don’t need to be convinced. My whole family is vaccinated. I’m suggesting ways to convince young women who are concerned about how it affects their reproductive ability, whatever is causing 50% of the Bronx’s population to not get the shot. I don’t know how to overcome religious objections to vaccines but maybe they could be convinced to wear a mask. If having recovered from it doesn’t provide immunity somebody should be out front explaining why and citing the research. Nobody is trying to address peoples concerns. They’re just vilifying the other side. That just causes people to dig in. We always hear “we need to have a conversation” about whatever the topic of the day might be but nobody ever has a conversation about anything. That would require listening to people that disagree with you, which seems to be a dead art.


----------



## MarzNC

Since I don't have little kids any more, and even my friends' kids that I ski with are old enough to be vaccinated, I don't care too much what vaccinated folks do. However, my husband is in the high risk group that probably needs another shot. That should be approved by FDA and recommended by CDC before next week. So I'm masking up more when I go shopping just to be extra careful.

Plus I've read enough stories about people who were breakthrough cases. Meaning people who had symptoms. With full vaccination, still possible to have feel pretty bad for several days. I'd rather keep the risk of that happening as low as possible.

When traveling, at this point I am cautious and assume anyone who is unmasked is unvaccinated. That means they could be contagious and have no clue. At least that's how I'll be think when driving up to Lake Placid in the next week via I-81/I-88. Did that last summer and had little trouble keeping safe. It's about situational awareness.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Nobody is trying to address peoples concerns. They’re just vilifying the other side. That just causes people to dig in. We always hear “we need to have a conversation” about whatever the topic of the day might be but nobody ever has a conversation about anything. That would require listening to people that disagree with you, which seems to be a dead art.


Are you thinking about online discussions or in-person conversations?

I don't know people who are anti-vax because of misinformation. But I've need carefully discussing vaccination for months with two people I have monthly appointments with for personal health and care. I have enough history talking with them so that they would listen. They were hesitant but for very different reasons. In the last couple months, both have gotten vaccinated. In one case, her employer (small business) said that if everyone got vaccinated then they wouldn't have to mask up at work. In the other, he was ready to read more recent articles about the vaccine development and Delta. I'd sent a few articles to him back in Fall 2020 too.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I am fully satisfied.



Same here. I'm convinced that getting vaxed is the right thing to do, for many reasons. A co-worker of mine isn't and we've talked about it more than once. He claims he's still waiting to see if those of us that are vaxed start dropping like flies. Seems weird to me, but hey, I know I've done weird shit before too, so there's that.


----------



## gorgonzola

Brownski said:


> , which seems to be a dead art.


along with merging on to the highway


----------



## Brownski

gorgonzola said:


> along with merging on to the highway


Goddamned right!!!


----------



## Brownski

MarzNC said:


> Are you thinking about online discussions or in-person conversations?


I guess both but mainly the “national conversation” I’d like to see less partisanship and acrimony and more detail from real researchers. When we keep seeing the same people over and over again and can predict what each and every one of them is going to say, that’s not useful. If somebody tracked down a couple of the people that started researching MRNA twenty years ago and laid the groundwork for what we have now, that would be more effective


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> I am fully satisfied. I don’t need to be convinced. My whole family is vaccinated. I’m suggesting ways to convince young women who are concerned about how it affects their reproductive ability, whatever is causing 50% of the Bronx’s population to not get the shot. I don’t know how to overcome religious objections to vaccines but maybe they could be convinced to wear a mask. If having recovered from it doesn’t provide immunity somebody should be out front explaining why and citing the research. Nobody is trying to address peoples concerns. They’re just vilifying the other side. That just causes people to dig in. We always hear “we need to have a conversation” about whatever the topic of the day might be but nobody ever has a conversation about anything. That would require listening to people that disagree with you, which seems to be a dead art.


There have been reasonable conversations since the vaccines became available. I know this because I was paying attention in order to make decisions for my family. Now there is a group of people that would rather listen to ANYBODY but the people who know about vaccines. These clowns would rather believe a Russian psyops meme on FB than the US CDC. 

Stop pretending that there has been name calling and vilifying from scientists. The only fraud is coming from certain politicians and lawmakers and their supporting charlatans. 

Now please excuse me so I can go back to listening to the Mets game in my head because of the 2 Gates chips that were injected into me when I got my vaccines.


----------



## Harvey

To me the clearest data are the hospitalization numbers (%) on vaccinated vs unvaccinated. The information I've seen seems pretty convincing. But that data doesn't seem to be convincing anyone who wasn't already convinced.

I've had covid and it was brutal. I guess that means I've got co-morbidities. Still not willing to say oh well, I'm not healthy enough to deserve to live.

Everything is a gamble. Driving a car. Skiing. Whatever. If I get long term side affects, I'll might never know if they are from covid or the vax. But if it is from the vax, I won't beat myself up about it. I made the call and I'll live (hopefully!) with it. We've got a three pack a day smoker in our company who doesn't want to come back to the office because she is concerned about the health risk. We all make our own judgements.

IMO it's unfortunate that people view this vaccine differently than the 15 shots they had to get to go to kindergarten.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> MO it's unfortunate that people view this vaccine differently than the 15 shots they had to get to go to kindergarten.



I know!!!??? Right? this shit isn't anything new.


----------



## Sbob

COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov
				




There have been a few deaths related to the vaccine. It’s “New” 
is an impediment to a lot of people.

I waited some time for the vaccine but was motivated by my business partner getting covid 
I used to tease him about being fat an overweight and a goner if he got it. He still hasn’t fully recovered his sense of taste from three months ago.


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> I am fully satisfied. I don’t need to be convinced….


Consider the possibility that the “vilification” is working on some people and different people can be convinced in different ways.



Part of “having a conversation” is not taking offense on other people’s behalf.

If the stories about healthy people dying convince more people to get vaccinated, great. If the stories full of data & facts convince more people to get vaccinated, great. If people think that COVID is an alien conspiracy to depopulate the planet and the only way to prevent an “Independence Day”-style takeover is to get the vaccine, fucking who cares? As long as people get vaccinated, I’m for it.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> If having recovered from it doesn’t provide immunity somebody should be out front explaining why and citing the research. Nobody is trying to address peoples concerns. They’re just vilifying the other side. That just causes people to dig in. We always hear “we need to have a conversation” about whatever the topic of the day might be but nobody ever has a conversation about anything. That would require listening to people that disagree with you, which seems to be a dead art.


The big tech social media folks ban folks who disagree with their narrative so the art of discussing is lost.
The Haudenosaunee didn’t have writing but they had oratory and had discussions until opposing folks agreed what’s best for 7 generations down the road.


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> There have been a few deaths related to the vaccine. It’s “New”
> is an impediment to a lot of people.


Yep, the people who are scared by a headline with the words "death" or "hospitalized" together with "vaccinated" aren't likely to have any idea what the statistics that come out of a clinical trial really mean. Or what "emergency approval" by FDA means in comparison to "full approval."

Given my academic and professional background working in a Biostatistics Dept. of a company that did clinical trials, it was easy to understand that enrolling 40,000 people in a Phase 3 trial in just a few months in 2020 was a major reason that there could be sufficient efficacy results by fall. Also true that severe adverse events directly related to a vaccine are unlikely to happen after a few months. Usually 2-8 weeks is enough to get a sense that a new vaccine is "safe" in the sense of "safe and effective". A decision to approve a vaccine or drug by a regulatory agency doesn't mean it's perfect, but that it's better than no medication and worth the risk of the known side effects.

I wonder how many people who are vaccine hesitant have a regular doctor who they trust. Even with good health insurance, it took me several years to find a family practice doctor who I felt completely comfortable with. And then she moved on after about 15 years. The search for a new PCP took several years after that.


----------



## MC2

tirolski said:


> .
> The Haudenosaunee didn’t have writing but they had oratory and had discussions until opposing folks agreed what’s best for 7 generations down the road.


You think that they had discussions until *all* the “opposing folks” agreed?

Or do you think they were outvoted by a majority of the tribe?

Have you ever tried to get 100% agreement on anything in a group of people?

70% of people have at least 1 shot. It’s actually pretty impressive. Hard to get 70% of people to do anything:


----------



## MarzNC

Once there was enough vaccine supply, Canadians really stepped up for vaccinations. Was only 20% in mid-June. Percentages are for total population. About 10% higher for 12+. I think the target for re-opening the border was 75%, but it wasn't a hard number.


----------



## CNY Skier

Harvey said:


> To me the clearest data are the hospitalization numbers (%) on vaccinated vs unvaccinated. The information I've seen seems pretty convincing. But that data doesn't seem to be convincing anyone who wasn't already convinced.
> 
> I've had covid and it was brutal. I guess that means I've got co-morbidities. Still not willing to say oh well, I'm not healthy enough to deserve to live.
> 
> Everything is a gamble. Driving a car. Skiing. Whatever. If I get long term side affects, I'll might never know if they are from covid or the vax. But if it is from the vax, I won't beat myself up about it. I made the call and I'll live (hopefully!) with it. We've got a three pack a day smoker in our company who doesn't want to come back to the office because she is concerned about the health risk. We all make our own judgements.
> 
> IMO it's unfortunate that people view this vaccine differently than the 15 shots they had to get to go to kindergarten.


Well, it IS different than the shots we had in kindergarten. A traditional vaccine uses a weakened or dead virus to compel the human immune system into action. These new vaccines (all of them) do not. Why? This issue is what makes most of us "vaccine hesitant" uneasy. Even the more traditional J&J vax uses the Adenovirus (not Covid-19) as it's core mechanism. If Covid-19 is truly a virus than why not use it (in weakened form) as a basis for a vaccine? Honestly, if someone could provide a coherent explanation of this than most of us would be at the vax clinic tomorrow, me included. I have had all of my traditional vaccines and boosters and cannot by any means be labeled "anti-vax".

There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.

Something about this whole thing just seems a bit off. It used to be that if you got a disease and survived then you would obtain immunity for a decent length of time. Now "the experts" are saying no, that doesn't apply anymore. So they expect us to believe that thousands of years of human evolution and immunology is no longer valid? Occam's razor.


----------



## XTski

CNY Skier said:


> Well, it IS different than the shots we had in kindergarten. A traditional vaccine uses a weakened or dead virus to compel the human immune system into action. These new vaccines (all of them) do not. Why? This issue is what makes most of us "vaccine hesitant" uneasy. Even the more traditional J&J vax uses the Adenovirus (not Covid-19) as it's core mechanism. If Covid-19 is truly a virus than why not use it (in weakened form) as a basis for a vaccine? Honestly, if someone could provide a coherent explanation of this than most of us would be at the vax clinic tomorrow, me included. I have had all of my traditional vaccines and boosters and cannot by any means be labeled "anti-vax".
> 
> There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.
> 
> Something about this whole thing just seems a bit off. It used to be that if you got a disease and survived then you would obtain immunity for a decent length of time. Now "the experts" are saying no, that doesn't apply anymore. So they expect us to believe that thousands of years of human evolution and immunology is no longer valid? Occam's razor.


this is why so many Americans are skeptical, not as many sheep here like in communist countries, hopefully all works out but things are looking sketchy


----------



## Tjf1967

CNY Skier said:


> Well, it IS different than the shots we had in kindergarten. A traditional vaccine uses a weakened or dead virus to compel the human immune system into action. These new vaccines (all of them) do not. Why? This issue is what makes most of us "vaccine hesitant" uneasy. Even the more traditional J&J vax uses the Adenovirus (not Covid-19) as it's core mechanism. If Covid-19 is truly a virus than why not use it (in weakened form) as a basis for a vaccine? Honestly, if someone could provide a coherent explanation of this than most of us would be at the vax clinic tomorrow, me included. I have had all of my traditional vaccines and boosters and cannot by any means be labeled "anti-vax".
> 
> There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.
> 
> Something about this whole thing just seems a bit off. It used to be that if you got a disease and survived then you would obtain immunity for a decent length of time. Now "the experts" are saying no, that doesn't apply anymore. So they expect us to believe that thousands of years of human evolution and immunology is no longer valid? Occam's razor.


You are entitled to your opinion. You have the same access to info we do. That said if that is your choice. You obviously believe there is a virus. You also know how catchy it is. Is it safe to assume you keep your distance? That is the rub. It's not happening


----------



## Harvey

As I said, I could be wrong. And if I am I'll forgive myself for it. Like I said, covid hit me hard so the vaccine seems like a risk worth taking to me. I hope CNY is right and having covid once has me good to go.

I am skeptical of X's point that this is the most common reason that people aren't getting the vaccine. I'll admit that's a gut feeling, not based on research or data.

I agree with what I think TJ is saying. If you don't want to get vaccinated, wear a mask and avoid close contact. I find the hardest part of this is others who don't seem to take it seriously and unexpectedly get close to me. Work is the hard part. Once retired and living in the mountains I think it would be a lot easier to keep my distance.


----------



## MC2

CNY Skier said:


> There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.


There’s a weird thing that people do where they say “It’s not political, I just don’t trust [government/industry/any large system organized by people that invariably contain some levels of politics].”

Anyway, all we can do is offer facts





from: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html


----------



## ScottySkis

Harvey said:


> As I said, I could be wrong. And if I am I'll forgive myself for it. Like I said, covid hit me hard so the vaccine seems like a risk worth taking to me. I hope CNY is right and having covid once has me good to go.""
> 
> I got it spring for few reasons


1 I not healthy I have few comidety s 
2 for 2 mom and uncle and other in family to be with them again
3 having bad asthma it impossible for me to breathe in them after few minutes
4 I know others old er family that passed from it 
5 to go back to where we where before

My 2 cousins( like brother s) will not get it the vaccine because 1 he'd th e virus is 40 ish is kind of health then me. My other cousin mid 40
Very healthy nut
He he always took care
They both conservatives I understand why they would not get totally


----------



## XTski

Harvey said:


> As I said, I could be wrong. And if I am I'll forgive myself for it. Like I said, covid hit me hard so the vaccine seems like a risk worth taking to me. I hope CNY is right and having covid once has me good to go.
> 
> I am skeptical of X's point that this is the most common reason that people aren't getting the vaccine. I'll admit that's a gut feeling, not based on research or data.
> 
> I agree with what I think TJ is saying. If you don't want to get vaccinated wear a mask and avoid close contact. I find the hardest part of this is others who don't seem take it seriously and unexpectedly get close to me. Work is the hard part. Once retired and living in the mountains I think it would be a lot easier to keep my distance.


I didn’t see where anyone said it was “the most common reason “ just one of many as we are a country of independent thinkers fortunately we have the freedom to do so


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> I wonder how many people who are vaccine hesitant have a regular doctor who they trust.


I'd guess this is the reason for a lot of people's hesitation towards getting the vax. I feel very lucky that my doc is super cool, wicked smart, and I trust her on every level.


----------



## Tjf1967

XTski said:


> I didn’t see where anyone said it was “the most common reason “ just one of many as we are a country of independent thinkers fortunately we have the freedom to do so


You are correct. Freedom. You don't have the right to endanger others


----------



## Scrundy

CNY Skier said:


> Something about this whole thing just seems a bit off. It used to be that if you got a disease and survived then you would obtain immunity for a decent length of time. Now "the experts" are saying no, that doesn't apply anymore. So they expect us to believe that thousands of years of human evolution and immunology is no longer valid? Occam's razor.


Agree, I’ve felt this way since the start of this whole mess. Some people trust their gut. My gut tells me something bigger is going on.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> most of us would be at the vax clinic tomorrow


The majority have been


----------



## tirolski

Scrundy said:


> ... this whole mess. Some people trust their gut. My gut tells me something bigger is going on.


Follow the $ and connect the dots. Learned to as a child. Just sayin.


----------



## MC2

Scrundy said:


> Agree, I’ve felt this way since the start of this whole mess. Some people trust their gut. My gut tells me something bigger is going on.


What if there’s a simple explanation like:
1. A disease somewhat similar to bird flu (2005) or swine flu (2009) started in China (doesn’t much matter how)
2. It was more contagious & deadly than those previous diseases
3. World Governments wanted to eradicate the disease, initially hoped that masking & distancing would do it, but ultimately, at least three multinational companies created vaccines that passed clinical trials & were approved for use.
4. World governments started pushing the vaccine because they really want a “return to normal” so that citizens don’t get all pissed off and government officials can get re-elected.

Everything doesn’t have to be a conspiracy. Are rich people getting even more rich during COVID? Of course. Rich people always get more rich. 

Anyway, here’s a good article on why people believe conspiracy theories. Maybe that guy from California should have read it before he killed his kids with a spear gun because “his gut” told him they had serpent DNA:








						Why People Fall For Conspiracy Theories
					

You might not believe in QAnon, but you could still fall down the rabbit hole.




					fivethirtyeight.com


----------



## Harvey

XTski said:


> I didn’t see where anyone said it was “the most common reason “ just one of many as we are a country of independent thinkers fortunately we have the freedom to do so


Fair enough. All you said was "this is why" referring to CNY's post. I misunderstood what "this" referred to. Still don't know what refers to, TBH.


----------



## x10003q

CNY Skier said:


> Well, it IS different than the shots we had in kindergarten. A traditional vaccine uses a weakened or dead virus to compel the human immune system into action. These new vaccines (all of them) do not. Why? This issue is what makes most of us "vaccine hesitant" uneasy. Even the more traditional J&J vax uses the Adenovirus (not Covid-19) as it's core mechanism. If Covid-19 is truly a virus than why not use it (in weakened form) as a basis for a vaccine? Honestly, if someone could provide a coherent explanation of this than most of us would be at the vax clinic tomorrow, me included. I have had all of my traditional vaccines and boosters and cannot by any means be labeled "anti-vax".
> 
> There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.
> 
> Something about this whole thing just seems a bit off. It used to be that if you got a disease and survived then you would obtain immunity for a decent length of time. Now "the experts" are saying no, that doesn't apply anymore. So they expect us to believe that thousands of years of human evolution and immunology is no longer valid? Occam's razor.


Are you a virologist?


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Are you a virologist?


Don’t wanna speak for CNYskier but I did stay at Holiday Inn Express once upon a time.


----------



## Campgottagopee

At our worst we had 15 covid pos in our hospital. Yesterday we had 3. Today there is 6.


----------



## MarzNC

Back in 2020, the phrase "novel coronavirus" was seen a lot. Not so much in 2021. Very little was known about SARS-CoV-2 when it devastated northern Italy starting in late 2019. The first cases in Boston were seeded by a meeting of Biogen senior management in Feb 2020 that included execs from Italy. One man who attended then went to the Biogen office near Raleigh (where I live) before going home to the midwest. He exposed people in both places who tested positive after contact tracing was done. SARS, MERS, SARS-CoV-2 are the coronaviruses that have jumped to humans since 2000.

There are other coronaviruses that circulate among humans often. Common cold symptoms can be traced to coronaviruses known as HCoVs. Those presumably jumped into homo sapiens and mutated to cause mild symptoms a long, long, long time ago.

Warning . . . this got long. It's an attempt to explain why the development of the Moderna mRNA vaccine took much less time than usual back in 2020. Hard to condense the process of vaccine development and approval regulatory into a few paragraphs.

mRNA research has been around for 20 years or so. Mostly was focused on cancer. My immunologist ski buddy knew all about them in grad school. One reason Moderna could come up with a vaccine candidate so quickly in 2020 was that mRNA as a basis for a vaccine was what Moderna has been doing for a decade. They had the necessary genetic info about SARS-CoV-2 by Jan 2020, a candidate for Phase 1 testing in humans by Feb 2020. That's not possible as quickly with other approaches to vaccine development.

Usually vaccine development in the lab is followed by months and years of clinical trials (Phases 1, 2, 3). After approval by a regulatory agency like the FDA, then a company gears up for manufacturing. While they might start that towards the end of Phase 3 trials, would be too risky from a business standpoint to start much sooner. Obviously the pandemic in 2020 changed everything in terms of the importance of setting up manufacturing at the same time the Phase 3 trials were ongoing. The Phase 2 lab results made it clear that the vaccine candidate worked or else Phase 3 couldn't start. Big money from the federal government made it possible for Moderna and Pfizer to go ahead with manufacturing set up in 2020, probably other companies too.

Phase 3 vaccine trials require thousands of subjects. The volunteers go about their daily life and in 2020 that meant only a few would get exposed enough to catch COVID-19 during the efficacy study period (months, not weeks or years). Moderna needed about 30,000 for the primary trial in the U.S., with 15,000 getting placebo and 15,000 getting both shots of Moderna. Dosing was based on Phase 1/2 results. Need a big enough dose to see useful changes based on lab results, but still low enough to minimize adverse effects. The FDA bases approval on statistical evidence of "safety and efficacy" from at least one U.S. study. Fair to say that finding 30,000 volunteers and 40,000 volunteers for Pfizer in 2020 didn't take long. I think enrollment was completed in a few months, starting in March 2020. Studies in other countries are helpful for safety, and can support efficacy. With a novel coronavirus, testing in other countries can be helpful for variants that show up elsewhere before they get to the U.S.

For those who don't know me, my Ph.D. is in Biostatistics from the UNC-Chapel Hill School of Public Health. I worked in the pharma/biotech industry on clinical trials research for 15 years. I didn't write statistical analysis plans but know how to interpret one. I joined when Quintiles was still a startup right out of grad school. The CEO and co-founder was one of my professors before he started Quintiles as a small biostatistics and data management company in 1982. My first boss was one of the original 7 staff. Clinical services were added in 1988. Quintiles became a leading full-service international CRO after a successful IPO in 1993. That's why I could retire early to be a relaxed older parent and had time for online ski forums after my daughter got on skis in 2004.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> For those who don't know me, my Ph.D. is in Biostatistics from the UNC-Chapel Hill School of Public Health


I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and knowledge during this pandemic.


----------



## Brownski

Hey Marz, do you have any insight into what might be happening now regarding “full” or “final” FDA approval? That’s something I hear people citing as what they’re waiting for.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Hey Marz, do you have any insight into what might be happening now regarding “full” or “final” FDA approval? That’s something I hear people citing as what they’re waiting for.


All the news reports I've seen say that the FDA is pushing hard to finish the review for Pfizer by early September. What's not that obvious is the other stuff that has to be reviewed that has to do with manufacturing, not the "safety and efficacy" of the vaccine.

As I understand it, Moderna is not at the same stage in terms of providing data to the FDA.

The other important regulatory review coming up will be for the clinical trials for kids under 12. FDA asked that the trial enrollments be expanded a bit in order to have more safety data. Want to give as much chance as possible to detect adverse events. Those trials are much smaller in terms of how many subjects are included. Mostly checking that a lower dose is still effective and to assess safety (adverse events) in the different age groups.


----------



## MarzNC

I know there are public university systems that are likely to require vaccination for students once there is full approval by the FDA. For NC, has to do with how the law is written. There are obviously vaccinations that are required, like for measles and other highly contagious diseases that are kept in check by vaccination.

The number of colleges requiring vaccination shot up over 700 in the last week. Mostly private colleges but there are a few public colleges too. In general, getting tested weekly is the alternative to being vaccinated. 

According to the local news last night, Carolina has 85% of students attesting that they are vaccinated. Vaccination stats have been added to the Carolina Dashboard. But NC State down the road only had 55% yesterday as students started moving into dorms. Duke is requiring vaccination and says 99% of students, faculty, and staff are vaccinated. Meaning 1% were granted exemptions. Delta is clearly causing more breakthrough cases. Both Carolina and Duke have already had clusters identified where the students were vaccinated and only have mild symptoms. Two of the situations were for graduate students.


----------



## XTski

Tjf1967 said:


> You are correct. Freedom. You don't have the right to endanger others


Who said anything about endangering others, maybe I missed something


----------



## XTski

MarzNC said:


> Once there was enough vaccine supply, Canadians really stepped up for vaccinations. Was only 20% in mid-June. Percentages are for total population. About 10% higher for 12+. I think the target for re-opening the border was 75%, but it wasn't a hard number.
> 
> View attachment 10037


Canada closed their borders, if we were strong on that front as well things would be different, we have very weak leadership


----------



## jasonwx

I have 2 friends that work for Big Pharma.. One is a Phd the other MD.. All they want to do is develop drugs that help people.
We need these companies and they need to make a profit too. Yes they charge to much cause business can and do get greedy. 
With out them most us older folks 50 + would be dead..


----------



## Tjf1967

XTski said:


> Who said anything about endangering others, maybe I missed something


I did. People have rights. One of them is not too endanger others. If you choose not to get vaccinated then keep your distance. Wear a mask. It's not too much to ask


----------



## Campgottagopee

XTski said:


> Canada closed their borders, if we were strong on that front as well things would be different


You certainly make a very valid point. Heck, VT did it and their numbers are some of the best.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Back in 2020, the phrase "novel coronavirus" was seen a lot. Not so much in 2021. Very little was known about SARS-CoV-2 when it devastated northern Italy starting in late 2019. The first cases in Boston were seeded by a meeting of Biogen senior management in Feb 2020 that included execs from Italy.
> For those who don't know me, my Ph.D. is in Biostatistics from the UNC-Chapel Hill School of Public Health. I worked in the pharma/biotech industry on clinical trials research for 15 years.


Marz, While at UNC did ya ever cross paths with Ralph Baric who is a world expert on the the coronaviruses?
He’s worked a lot on those little things.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Marz, While at UNC did ya ever cross paths with Ralph Baric who is a world expert on the the coronaviruses?
> He’s worked a lot on those little things.


Nope. Looks like Baric came to UNC-Chapel Hill just about the time I finished grad school in 1987. We are about the same age. He was in California for a few years before joining UNC-CH School of Public Health, now known as the Gillings School of Global Public Health. Dennis Gillings was the CEO and co-founder of Quintiles, where I worked.

That's pretty cool that Baric has been working on research related to SARS-CoV-2 for most of his career. He got interested in coronaviruses a few years before SARS. The following interview is from March 2020, soon after the first clusters were identified in the U.S. His comment about "contemporary human coronaviruses" caught my eye. He was talking about coronaviruses that case common cold symptoms. I just found a good article from 2016 about those, but had heard about them over a year ago.

March 2020





						Ralph Baric: On the Front Lines of Coronavirus for Three Decades - UNC General Alumni Association
					






					alumni.unc.edu
				



" . . .
“There’s lots of viruses that jump between species — flu is the best example — which is a disease of birds and mammals” that then spills over into humans. “But there had not been any major human pandemic virus that was in our recent memory. It turns out the contemporary human coronaviruses — of which there are four that you’ve been infected with and I’ve been infected with — they emerged 100 to about 800 years ago. And there’s no recorded information about what disease they caused or whether they caused any disease. And even if they caused disease, it probably would have been written off as flu.
. . ."


----------



## MarzNC

There are lots of UNC-CH alumni actively involved in COVID-19 research. It's a major research university with a huge medical research complex, along with the Gillings School of Public Health. A key scientist in the development of Moderna is Kizzmekia Corbett. She's actually from the county that UNC-CH is in and got her Ph.D. from UNC in microbiology and immunology. She and Dr. Fauci were the UNC-CH commencement speakers in May 2021.


----------



## x10003q

XTski said:


> Canada closed their borders, if we were strong on that front as well things would be different, we have very weak leadership


Didn't Desantis close the international borders of Florida? Despite his border closing actions, Covid is exploding in Florida. It can be so confusing.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Heck, VT did it and their numbers are some of the best.


Vermont has at least 2 advantages. Limited urban areas. And VT is easier to "cut off" vs NY. NY Metro isn't easy to unravel.


----------



## Sbob

Confusing yes . The news seems to be all about the Delta variant but since there is no test other than genome testing which isn’t being done , So are numbers just an estimate? There was a disagreement between the CDC and Florida state reporting of the stats.

Also Pfizer seems to be only 60% effective. So how does the vaccine brand distribution by state come into play?


Since I had the Pfizer shot I’m thinking about getting a Moderna shot too ? Bad idea?


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> Confusing yes . The news seems to be all about the Delta variant but since there is no test other than genome testing which isn’t being done , So are numbers just an estimate? There was a disagreement between the CDC and Florida state reporting of the stats.
> 
> Also Pfizer seems to be only 60% effective. So how does the vaccine brand distribution by state come into play?
> 
> 
> Since I had the Pfizer shot I’m thinking about getting a Moderna shot too ? Bad idea?


Genomic testing is being done in many states. Also in many countries. Where Delta moved in more than a couple months ago, it's coming up as well over 95% of the samples tested. In the U.S. it's true that not all test samples are checked for which variant it is but my impression is that it's being done for a lot of the samples from patients in a hospital. Keep in mind that not all states report all of their data to the CDC. For instance, Texas won't share county-level data with the CDC. Florida hasn't been wanting to share data publicly for quite a while. That's one reason I don't bother to check stats for Florida that often. I have no confidence that the stats are meaningful.

January 18, 2021








						Fired Florida data scientist Rebekah Jones turns herself in to jail and tests positive for Covid-19 | CNN
					

The former Florida data analyst who has accused state officials of covering up the extent of the pandemic has turned herself in, days after a warrant was issued for her arrest, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) said.




					www.cnn.com
				




If you are referring to the one study that was reported recently, that's the first report comparing Pfizer and Moderna in the period after May 2020 when Delta was starting to spread fast in most regions of the U.S. Did you read the actual pre-print or a news report?

I wouldn't start second guessing FDA and CDC recommendations. While there are studies in the UK being done for "mix and match" those are because of concerns with Astra Zeneca. While a third shot is probably useful for a small percentage of high risk people, there is no basis for thinking that mixing two different mRNA vaccines offers more protection. Add an mRNA vaccine to another vaccine based on a different approach to vaccine development may be useful, but there isn't enough known yet.

Here's the pre-print I mentioned. The study was a case-control study done in several states. As with any statistical analysis, it pays to understand the population involved and what questions were of primary interest. For instance, when I researched knee injuries after I messed up a knee in 2012 (not skiing) I didn't pay much attention to studies done with adults ages 20-40.

August 6, 2021, pre-print of Mayo Clinic study (copy&paste may have missed some text)
Comparison of two highly-effective mRNA vaccines for COVID-19 during periods of Alpha and Delta variant prevalence 


https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v1.full.pdf


" . . .
_Discussion
The occurrence of breakthrough infections and reports of diminished neutralization of emergent variants by vaccine-elicited sera mandate the continual monitoring of the comparative effectiveness and durability of COVID-19 vaccines.8,9 Overall, we find that
in our study population from Minnesota, both vaccines strongly reduce the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe
COVID-19, but individuals vaccinated with mRNA-1273 were about half as likely to experience
breakthrough infections as individuals vaccinated with BNT162b2. This relative risk reduction
conferred by mRNA-1273 was also observed in other states, including in Florida during a recent
COVID-19 outbreak. The effectiveness of both vaccines, particularly BNT162b2, was lower in July
compared to prior months. Finally, the rates of complications experienced by patients with
breakthrough infections were similar between those vaccinated with mRNA-1273 or BNT162b2.

mRNA-1273 and BNT162b2 were originally designed, tested, and proven to reduce the
burden of symptomatic disease, hospitalization, and death related to SARS-CoV-2 infection. This
study further supports the effectiveness of both vaccines in doing so, even despite the evolution
of more transmissible viral variants. It is important to realize that most vaccines are not 100%
effective, particularly against asymptomatic infections. For example, the estimated effectiveness
of seasonal influenza vaccines has ranged from 19-60% over the past decade.16 While COVID-
19 mRNA vaccines have been shown to be drastically more effective than this, the occurrence of
breakthrough infections is indeed still expected. We observed a pronounced reduction in the
effectiveness of BNT162b2 coinciding with the surging prevalence of the Delta variant in the
United States, but this temporal association does not imply causality, and there are likely
several factors contributing to changes in vaccine effectiveness over time. Consistent with
our findings, a previous test-negative case-control study found that full vaccination with
BNT162b2 was less effective in preventing symptomatic infection with the Delta variant
(88.0%, 95% CI: 85-90.1%) than with the Alpha variant (93.7%, 95% CI: 91.6-95.3%),
although it was highly effective against both.17

Several factors could contribute to the observed differences in effectiveness of mRNA- 1273 and BNT162b2. Although both are nucleoside-modified mRNA vaccines encoding the prefusion stabilized SARS-CoV-2 Spike protein, there are differences in the vaccination regimen and formulation.18,19 BNT162b2 is administered as 30μg/0.3mL (100 μg/mL) doses 21 days apart20 and the Moderna vaccine is administered as 100μg/0.5mL (200 μg/mL) doses 28 days apart.21 Assuming similar sized constructs, this means that each mRNA-1273 dose provides three times more mRNA copies of the Spike protein than BNT162b2, which could result in more effective priming of the immune response. There has not been a head-to-head comparison of the neutralizing antibody titers elicited by BNT162b2 versus mRNA-1273, but such a study could provide important context for our results. Certain adverse effects, such as myalgia and arthralgia, were observed more frequently after vaccination with mRNA-1273 than BNT162b2 in their respective clinical trials, and it can be speculated that this increased reactogenicity is paralleled by increased immunogenicity.3,4 Furthermore, there are differences in the lipid composition of the nanoparticles used for packaging the mRNA content of There are some limitations of this study. First, these cohorts are not demographically representative of the American population (Table 1, Table S1), which may limit the generalizability of our findings. Similar real world clinical studies on larger and more diverse populations from various health systems are needed to more robustly compare the effectiveness of mRNA-1273 and BNT162b2. Second, although this study accounts for geographic variability by matching individuals from the same state, these conclusions should continue to be tested longitudinally throughout the United States and globally. Third, it is
(DSPC), and cholesterol whereas the lipid nanoparticle of mRNA-1273 is composed of SM-102,
PEG-DMG, DSPC, and cholesterol.22 The structures of the cationic lipids (ALC-0315 and SM-
mRNA-1273 and BNT162b2. BNT162b2 has a lipid nanoparticle composed of ALC-0315, ALC-0159, distearolyphosphatidycholine
102) in each formulation are shown in Figure S5.

There are some limitations of this study. First, these cohorts are not demographically representative of the American population (Table 1, Table S1), which may limit the generalizability of our findings. Similar real world clinical studies on larger and more diverse populations from various health systems are needed to more robustly compare the effectiveness of mRNA-1273 and BNT162b2. Second, although this study accounts for geographic variability by matching individuals from the same state, these conclusions should continue to be tested longitudinally throughout the United States and globally.
Third, it is possible that our vaccine effectiveness estimates are impacted by unknown exposure risk variables which were missed in the matching procedure, although the similar risks for infection, hospitalization, ICU admission,
and death in the week following the first dose suggest that all of the compared cohorts had similar
baseline risks for the defined outcomes at the time of study enrollment. Finally, while we did
observe a recent reduction in vaccine effectiveness in July, we did not analyze the risk of infection
relative to the date of vaccination. The reduced effectiveness could be due to waning immunity
over time, the dynamic landscape of SARS-CoV-2 variants, or other factors that were not
considered here.

Our observational study suggests that while both mRNA COVID-19 vaccines strongly protect against infection and severe disease, there are differences in their real-world effectiveness relative to each other and relative to prior months of the pandemic. Larger studies with more diverse populations are warranted to guide critical pending public and global health decisions, such as the optimal timing for booster doses and which vaccines should be administered to individuals who have not yet received one dose. As we continue to vigilantly monitor longitudinal and comparative vaccine effectiveness in the coming months, this study emphasizes the importance of vaccination to reduce the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection and its associated complications."
. . ."_


----------



## CNY Skier

x10003q said:


> Are you a virologist?





MC2 said:


> There’s a weird thing that people do where they say “It’s not political, I just don’t trust [government/industry/any large system organized by people that invariably contain some levels of politics].”
> 
> Anyway, all we can do is offer facts
> 
> View attachment 10038
> 
> from: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html


CDC. A stellar institute LOL!


----------



## CNY Skier

No, a scientist. You don't need to be a virologist to read. Anyone with a brain can read the published studies.

I noticed that no one commented on the content of my post. And herein lies the problem. Today the US had 600-700 covid deaths/day...every day the US has an average of 7,000 deaths for various reasons - the US loses around 1% of it's population per year. We (as a country) are making (bad) policy on a purported sickness that causes 10% of the daily deaths. Suicide, teen depression, overall despair??? Not important. Only Covid deaths matter. Then there is the masking of children...for me this amounts to child abuse.


----------



## Sbob

Interesting take





So quarantine right after being vaccinated ?


----------



## x10003q

CNY Skier said:


> No, a scientist. You don't need to be a virologist to read. Anyone with a brain can read the published studies.


Yet you admit you do not understand about the vaccine and that is why you hesitate. Maybe you need to reread the studies.


CNY Skier said:


> I noticed that no one commented on the content of my post.


Your post was staggeringly arrogant.


CNY Skier said:


> And herein lies the problem. Today the US had 600-700 covid deaths/day...every day the US has an average of 7,000 deaths for various reasons - the US loses around 1% of it's population per year. We (as a country) are making (bad) policy on a purported sickness that causes 10% of the daily deaths. Suicide, teen depression, overall despair??? Not important. Only Covid deaths matter.


Try and stay on topic. We are talking about easily preventing COVID deaths. All it takes is a couple of shots.


CNY Skier said:


> Then there is the masking of children...for me this amounts to child abuse.


Wow. You might want to read up on what constitutes child abuse. Wearing a mask is not included.


----------



## jasonwx

CNY Skier said:


> No, a scientist. You don't need to be a virologist to read. Anyone with a brain can read the published studies.
> 
> I noticed that no one commented on the content of my post. And herein lies the problem. Today the US had 600-700 covid deaths/day...every day the US has an average of 7,000 deaths for various reasons - the US loses around 1% of it's population per year. We (as a country) are making (bad) policy on a purported sickness that causes 10% of the daily deaths. Suicide, teen depression, overall despair??? Not important. Only Covid deaths matter. Then there is the masking of children...for me this amounts to child abuse.


Every little one I have meet doesn’t mind the masks and most like them. 
also the amount of strept throat is way down etc


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> The news seems to be all about the Delta variant but since there is no test other than genome testing which isn’t being done , So are numbers just an estimate?


Here are articles from Dallas as examples of the type of info I've been seeing about genomic testing to check the COVID-19 variant. I was curious about children, and that led to the second article from August 5.

I found last year that looking at recent news from local sources is often more useful than just reading national or international headline news. There were reports in mid-July that Delta was showing up as just over 80% of tested samples. The Delta variant has shown the same pattern of taking over as the dominant strain in other countries, including the island nations with closed borders and very good testing and contact tracing.

August 12, 2021








North Texas Pediatric COVID-19 Hospitalizations Are Up 600 Percent Since June


The number of children in the hospital with COVID-19 now exceeds the height of the pandemic.




www.dmagazine.com




_" . . .
The pediatric hospitals aren’t sequencing patient genes to see how much of the rise in infections is due to the more contagious delta variant, but they are assuming that the sequencing done by UTSW is reflected in their patient population as well. D Magazine’s Matt Goodman spoke with Dr. Joseph Chang, Parkland’s chief medical officer, who said that 90 percent of its patients are sick with the highly contagious delta variant. “We assume all (patients) are delta at this point,” Chang wrote. UT Southwestern said that percentage held true for their patients as well. The good news is that the delta variant doesn’t seem to be any more deadly than the ancestral variant, but its higher viral load means more people are at greater risk of infection. 
. . ."_

August 5, 2021








At Hospitals Across Dallas-Fort Worth, COVID-19 Has Returned With a Fury


Since January, just seven of Parkland’s more than 1,100 hospitalized COVID-19 patients have been vaccinated.




www.dmagazine.com




_" . . .
According to Dr. Joseph Chang, Parkland’s chief medical officer, the county has informed the hospital that about 90 percent of its patients are sick with the highly contagious delta variant. “We assume all (patients) are delta at this point,” he writes. UT Southwestern said the same thing about its patients. There are currently 85 patients in Parkland; five weeks ago there were seven, the lowest in the pandemic. (The high point came in the winter, when 200 were being treated.)

Since January, Parkland has treated more than 1,100 patients. Of those, only seven have been vaccinated. That’s .6 percent total. Across all of Parkland’s points of care, the positivity rate for COVID-19 is 22 percent. Its high was 33 percent.

UT Southwestern’s Clements University Hospital is currently treating 47 patients; in the height of last summer, before the vaccines were available, Southwestern’s peak was 61. We’re right back in this, but the vaccinated will more than likely avoid hospitalization even if they are infected with the virus. That’s rare in itself: according to data analyzed by NBC News, just .08 percent of the 164 million Americans who are fully vaccinated have tested positive. (Of course, in some cases, the symptoms or so mild or nonexistent that the vaccinated individual may not get tested before they pass.)_
. . ."


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> Interesting take
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So quarantine right after being vaccinated ?


Do you know much about Bossche? He was discussed on another ski forum a while back. He's a veterinarian in Belgium. I also discussed the topic with my immunologist friend. She understands what NK cells do, as well as T-cells/B-cells, a lot better than I do. She took the time to read his "open letter" to WHO carefully, as well as the Snopes article.









Geert Vanden Bossche Stokes Fear of COVID-19 Vaccine To Promote His Own Flawed ‘Solution’


A veterinarian suspiciously says the only way to prevent a COVID-19 vaccine-related calamity is through a product he claims to have invented.




www.snopes.com





Masking and the 3 Cs is always a good idea because of Delta, whether vaccinated or not. The idea is to avoid Closed Spaces, Crowded Spaces, and Close Contact. That's based on new data and research in the past two months since this particular variant entered the U.S. Bottom line is that Delta stays in the nose more and that makes it more transmissible for at day or two even by people who are vaccinated but have so much exposure that they get infected with SARS-CoV-2. If more people understood how to avoid adding to community spread, having 30-50% unvaccinated people in a community wouldn't be overloading so many hospitals.


----------



## Face4Me

CNY Skier said:


> I noticed that no one commented on the content of my post.


I'm guessing that's because most of us thought your post was silly and not worth responding to, but since you've asked ...


CNY Skier said:


> Well, it IS different than the shots we had in kindergarten. A traditional vaccine uses a weakened or dead virus to compel the human immune system into action. These new vaccines (all of them) do not. Why? This issue is what makes most of us "vaccine hesitant" uneasy. Even the more traditional J&J vax uses the Adenovirus (not Covid-19) as it's core mechanism. If Covid-19 is truly a virus than why not use it (in weakened form) as a basis for a vaccine? Honestly, if someone could provide a coherent explanation of this than most of us would be at the vax clinic tomorrow, me included. I have had all of my traditional vaccines and boosters and cannot by any means be labeled "anti-vax".


Why? Well, perhaps it would be best to answer that question like this. Do you still ski in leather boots on wooden skis with no metal edges and cables or straps to attach the boots to the skis? Do you use a horse-drawn carriage to go to work, or the store, or to visit family? Do you use candles to light your home? Do surgeons cut your knee open to repair a torn ACL or do they use a laparoscope? Do doctors perform exploratory surgery to find out what's wrong with you or do they use a CAT-scan or MRI? Are people forced to wear eye-glasses or contact lenses for their entire lives or has LASIK eye surgery freed them from that? Do you use the internet to express your thoughts and opinions, or do you write them down on a piece of paper and hang it in the public square?


CNY Skier said:


> You don't need to be a virologist to read. Anyone with a brain can read the published studies.


mRNA vaccines have been researched and under development since the mid-1980's. They are easier to produce, quicker to produce, can be scaled up for large-scale production quickly and, in the end, produce the same result as traditional vaccines ... they enable the body to provide an immune response to a virus.


CNY Skier said:


> There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.


Awesome ... good for you. Whether or not you get vaccinated for COVID-19 should be your decision. If you make that decision, and don't end up contracting COVID-19, good for you. If you make that decision, and do contract COVID-19 and survive, good for you. If you make that decision, and do contract COVID-19 and die, good for you. I don't really think anyone cares what you do. What they do care about, however, is that you'll be respectful of other people's liberties, and do everything possible to avoid transmitting the virus to others. Put another way ... if you want to get into your car on an empty road and drive into a tree at 120 miles per hours, go for it ... just make sure you don't take out anyone else with you.


CNY Skier said:


> Something about this whole thing just seems a bit off. It used to be that if you got a disease and survived then you would obtain immunity for a decent length of time. Now "the experts" are saying no, that doesn't apply anymore. So they expect us to believe that thousands of years of human evolution and immunology is no longer valid?


Believe what you want ... once again ... no one cares. As to your question, I believe what "the experts" are saying is quite simply, "We're not sure" ... we believe the vaccine works, so whether you've had COVID-19 or not, if you get vaccinated, we believe that you'll have a greater degree of immunity, but do what you want.


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> We are talking about easily preventing COVID deaths. All it takes is a couple of shots.


The most important issue for any community hasn't changed since March 2020. To avoid unnecessary deaths, everyone must do what it takes to "flatten the curve." Masking works. So does vaccination for the vast majority of the almost 200 million Americans who are fully vaccinated as of early August 2021. When hospitals in a local area are overwhelmed because local folks don't understand that people with no symptoms can be contagious for days and/or ignore minor symptoms for a week or more, that's when healthy people of all ages start dying of complications due to COVID-19.

I don't post the individual stories I find about preventable deaths or hospitalizations because it's too depressing. They are easy to find for any of the states with low vaccination rates. Also happening in high vaccination states because there are still low vaccination counties.


----------



## MarzNC

Like last fall, I'm paying close attention to colleges across the U.S. 

North Carolina was quite a mixed bag for the 2020 Fall semester. Luckily my daughter is at a smaller college with no football team or large Greek houses. While classes ended up virtual, overall there wasn't a huge disruption to her education. Classes start next week in NC, unlike in NY and New England. My impression is that masking will be required indoors pretty much on all campuses, whether or not vaccination is required. I gather that students are moving in to Cornell next week. Looks like Boston colleges have students moving in the week of August 23.

Here's what I came across last night.

August 11, 2021








Montana campuses prep for another COVID fall


From face mask recommendations to mobile vaccine clinics, here’s a look at how campuses across Montana are prepping for another coronavirus-shadowed semester.




montanafreepress.org





August 11, 2021








Here Is What Colleges in Dallas-Fort Worth Are Doing About COVID This Fall


Most area colleges are urging students and faculty to wear masks, but only one (so far) is requiring it.




www.dmagazine.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> When hospitals in a local area are overwhelmed because local folks don't understand that people with no symptoms can be contagious for days and/or ignore minor symptoms for a week or more, that's when healthy people of all ages start dying of complications due to COVID-19.


Our local hospital just put up their covid bubble.....again. my wife shared with me that the feeling is very ominous, and certainly mentally taxing because they know what's coming next. They're so short staffed to begin with and some are talking of straight up quitting because they don't want to go through this again.


----------



## Sbob

MarzNC said:


> Do you know much about Bossche? He was discussed on another ski forum a while back. He's a veterinarian in Belgium. I also discussed the topic with my immunologist friend. She understands what NK cells do, as well as T-cells/B-cells, a lot better than I do. She took the time to read his "open letter" to WHO carefully, as well as what the Snopes article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Geert Vanden Bossche Stokes Fear of COVID-19 Vaccine To Promote His Own Flawed ‘Solution’
> 
> 
> A veterinarian suspiciously says the only way to prevent a COVID-19 vaccine-related calamity is through a product he claims to have invented.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Masking and the 3 Cs is always a good idea because of Delta, whether vaccinated or not. The idea is to avoid Closed Spaces, Crowded Spaces, and Close Contact. That's based on new data and research in the past two months since this particular variant entered the U.S. Bottom line is that Delta stays in the nose more and that makes it more transmissible for at day or two even by people who are vaccinated but have so much exposure that they get infected with SARS-CoV-2. If more people understood how to avoid adding to community spread, having 30-50% unvaccinated people in a community wouldn't be overloading so many hospitals.


The two videos I watched Bossche didn’t appear to be selling anything. I am somewhat familiar with natural killer cells. A while ago I invested in a company that is heavy into the technology. Nantkwest now Immunity Bio . Sorrento therapeutics I believe is also working on a NK based treatment for covid. If he an invented NK cell treatment he’s not the first. 
Always good to get information from as many sources as possible and sort it out.


----------



## Harvey

The internet is worthless up here at night, but I had a feeling you guys were cranking out the pages here!

I definitely haven't done the kind of reading that CNY asks about. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some side affects that aren't fully understood now. 

I'm making my best guess as to which has lower risk, vax or not? Isn't everyone doing that? IMO it's normal to get different answers from people who come from a different place, and get their information from different places.

Also IMO it's normal for me to want you to come to the same conclusion I did, and visa versa.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if there are some side affects that aren't fully understood now.


That was true in Dec 2020 when the people in multiple countries starting getting shots for Pfizer and Moderna. Given that was over 6 months ago, and millions of adults have had these vaccines, the safety profile is unlikely to has missed any serious adverse events.

What changed after the blood clot issue surface is that the list of adverse events was expanded, and the type and timing of symptoms related to that rare issue were clarified. My understanding is that if someone notices those symptoms and is treated promptly, the risk of serious complications or death is very low. That's true for all sorts of reactions to medication. Every drug or vaccine has potential side affects.

The CDC continues to update the webpage about potential side effects for Covid vaccines.









What to Expect after Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine


Learn about the potential side effects of the COVID-19 vaccine.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## MarzNC

AP did some fact checking after a school board meeting in Indiana. In Tennessee, doctors and nurses who spoke in favor of requiring masks for K-12 schools were actively threatened as they left the building. <sigh>

August 13, 2021








FACT FOCUS: Indiana doctor’s speech spreads COVID falsehoods


An Indiana doctor’s recent appearance at a small community school board meeting northeast of Indianapolis has racked up tens of millions of views across social media this week, with users falsely claiming it included facts about COVID-19 that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and...




apnews.com


----------



## Harvey

a


Harvey said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if there are some side affects that aren't fully understood now.


I also wouldn't be surprised is there are none beyond those already reported.

How many billions served?


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> How many billions served?


Not going to pass McD any time soon. 

August 13, 2021








More Than 12.4 Billion Shots Given: Covid-19 Tracker


Bloomberg counted up the shots administered in 184 countries and 59 US states and territories




www.bloomberg.com





This article in Nature was based on 1.7 billion doses around the world as of early June. Some of the findings may be outdated because the research was done well before Delta was everywhere.

June 4, 2021








Six months of COVID vaccines: what 1.7 billion doses have taught scientists


At a pivotal moment in the pandemic, Nature explores key questions about the vaccines that countries are racing to deliver while viral variants spread around the globe.




www.nature.com





Graph is for the U.S. only, as of Aug. 13. An average of 1 million doses per day for 5 months would be about 150 million for Pfizer only.


----------



## MarzNC

@Sbob : here's an example of a genomic report for Maine. Over 5000 samples have been analyzed since March. In July 2021, 86% of the samples were Delta.



https://www.maine.gov/dhhs/mecdc/infectious-disease/epi/airborne/documents/SARS-CoV-2-Sequencing-Summary-8-6.pdf


----------



## Harvey

It's just a song:






I wish it was funnier, at least it's only 3 minutes.


----------



## CNY Skier

Face4Me said:


> I'm guessing that's because most of us thought your post was silly and not worth responding to, but since you've asked ...
> 
> Why? Well, perhaps it would be best to answer that question like this. Do you still ski in leather boots on wooden skis with no metal edges and cables or straps to attach the boots to the skis? Do you use a horse-drawn carriage to go to work, or the store, or to visit family? Do you use candles to light your home? Do surgeons cut your knee open to repair a torn ACL or do they use a laparoscope? Do doctors perform exploratory surgery to find out what's wrong with you or do they use a CAT-scan or MRI? Are people forced to wear eye-glasses or contact lenses for their entire lives or has LASIK eye surgery freed them from that? Do you use the internet to express your thoughts and opinions, or do you write them down on a piece of paper and hang it in the public square?
> 
> mRNA vaccines have been researched and under development since the mid-1980's. They are easier to produce, quicker to produce, can be scaled up for large-scale production quickly and, in the end, produce the same result as traditional vaccines ... they enable the body to provide an immune response to a virus.
> 
> Awesome ... good for you. Whether or not you get vaccinated for COVID-19 should be your decision. If you make that decision, and don't end up contracting COVID-19, good for you. If you make that decision, and do contract COVID-19 and survive, good for you. If you make that decision, and do contract COVID-19 and die, good for you. I don't really think anyone cares what you do. What they do care about, however, is that you'll be respectful of other people's liberties, and do everything possible to avoid transmitting the virus to others. Put another way ... if you want to get into your car on an empty road and drive into a tree at 120 miles per hours, go for it ... just make sure you don't take out anyone else with you.
> 
> Believe what you want ... once again ... no one cares. As to your question, I believe what "the experts" are saying is quite simply, "We're not sure" ... we believe the vaccine works, so whether you've had COVID-19 or not, if you get vaccinated, we believe that you'll have a greater degree of immunity, but do what you want.


Yeah, this online posting is hard because you don't know me, I don't know you, etc. Apologize if I come off arrogant but assure you that I am always trying to learn and discover the truth. My favorite quote (Keynes?) is "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" And of course, medicine changes and we benefit from the new-found knowledge.

Your comment ... "the expert's" are saying "We're not sure but we believe the vaccine works...greater degree of immunity, etc." is what troubles me. Based on my county's website two days ago, the immunity argument is shot. 45% of all new "cases" are from vaccinated people. That is pretty close to 50/50 and implies that the vaccine does nothing to prevent new cases. Their argument is that you may get infected but a vaccine will prevent you from getting sick, etc. I haven't been able to find enough data to prove or disprove this claim. That said, I do know what _will_ help prevent you from getting sick - staying fit/trim and making sure you have a good immune system. This is the low cost low-hanging fruit so to speak.

I should have know better to enter this foray. Once someone gets the vaccination they have a natural inclination to defend their decision. I get that. All I was trying to do is explain why some of us have chosen otherwise. We are facing a scary mob mentality situation but most of us will refuse to be part of this experiment. Let the cards fall where they may.

Skiing, anyone? I just booked a two week AirBNB in Vermont for this Winter and am looking forward to having a great time! Family and friend will visit and I will have the pleasure of teaching my two grandchildren to ski! That will be two generations for me and I could not be happier!


----------



## sibhusky

CNY Skier said:


> That said, I do know what _will_ help prevent you from getting sick - staying fit/trim and making sure you have a good immune system. This is the low cost low-hanging fruit so to speak.


And yet, there is one tale after another of extremely fit people ending up in the hospital. While, IN THE HOSPITAL over 90% of the cases are unvaccinated. Now, it may be that it's only the fit people that the media wants to tell us about, but being fit is clearly not as good a shield against Delta as you seem to think. And we've got KIDS who can't get vaccinated ending up there. We have to take responsibility not just for ourselves, but for all with whom we come in contact. Because that perfectly fit looking person in the chair six feet away from you at the car dealer may not even be aware that they are immunocompromised. 

I'm vaccinated. I still wear a mask, I've got plenty and I have found quite a few that don't bother me in the least to wear. I do this because it's my duty as a human to my fellow humans. I'm not much on organized religion, but just as I help people who look like they are in trouble when I'm skiing, I don't wish to inadvertently spread this damn disease any more and I want to resume a normal life. The sooner we all start pulling together, the sooner we win.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I'm making my best guess as to which has lower risk, vax or not?


That just it, we don't have to guess. Math doesn't lie and why someone wouldn't want to improve their odds of not dying from covid by 10,000 blows my mind. I'm no scientist, pretty good at math, and I certainly know damn good odds when I see them.


----------



## Harvey

I agree you. Still others look at those same numbers and come to a different conclusion. Something has them calculating risk differently. CNY is considering information that I don't have, or I don't view as credible.

The numbers I've seen on hospitalizations make it a no-brainer, for me. From what I can tell, C doesn't accept those numbers as true. Like I said before, I don't see the logic in the cdc trying to trick me. I don't see what they are gaining.


----------



## Tjf1967

CNY Skier said:


> Yeah, this online posting is hard because you don't know me, I don't know you, etc. Apologize if I come off arrogant but assure you that I am always trying to learn and discover the truth. My favorite quote (Keynes?) is "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" And of course, medicine changes and we benefit from the new-found knowledge.
> 
> Your comment ... "the expert's" are saying "We're not sure but we believe the vaccine works...greater degree of immunity, etc." is what troubles me. Based on my county's website two days ago, the immunity argument is shot. 45% of all new "cases" are from vaccinated people. That is pretty close to 50/50 and implies that the vaccine does nothing to prevent new cases. Their argument is that you may get infected but a vaccine will prevent you from getting sick, etc. I haven't been able to find enough data to prove or disprove this claim. That said, I do know what _will_ help prevent you from getting sick - staying fit/trim and making sure you have a good immune system. This is the low cost low-hanging fruit so to speak.
> 
> I should have know better to enter this foray. Once someone gets the vaccination they have a natural inclination to defend their decision. I get that. All I was trying to do is explain why some of us have chosen otherwise. We are facing a scary mob mentality situation but most of us will refuse to be part of this experiment. Let the cards fall where they may.
> 
> Skiing, anyone? I just booked a two week AirBNB in Vermont for this Winter and am looking forward to having a great time! Family and friend will visit and I will have the pleasure of teaching my two grandchildren to ski! That will be two generations for me and I could not be happier!


That sounds valid. Are you doing anything to protect others?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I agree you. Still others look at those same numbers and come to a different conclusion. Something has them calculating risk differently. CNY is considering information that I don't have, or I don't view as credible.
> 
> The numbers I've seen on hospitilizations make it a no-brainer, for me. From what I can tell, C doesn't accept those numbers as true. Like I said before, I don't see the logic in the cdc trying to trick me. I don't see what they are gaining.


Yes, I knew you agreed with me. I just can't see how math lies, or is even confusing, at all. 
Over the weekend we had a covid death in our local ICU. Fuck me.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> I agree you. Still others look at those same numbers and come to a different conclusion. Something has them calculating risk differently. CNY is considering information that I don't have, or I don't view as credible.
> 
> The numbers I've seen on hospitalizations make it a no-brainer, for me. From what I can tell, C doesn't accept those numbers as true. Like I said before, I don't see the logic in the cdc trying to trick me. I don't see what they are gaining.


People look for the facts that support their own pre-existing opinions. Because if the innernets, there are "facts" that support every possible opinion. "Do your own research" is code for "follow every crazy conspiracy theory."
I'm old enough that I had childhood friends who were crippled by polio, a kindergarten friend who died (I believe) of meningitis and I even knew someone whose face was scarred by smallpox. All that was stopped by vaccinations, with no apparent side effects in anyone I ever met.
I'm going with vaccination every time.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Campgottagopee said:


> At our worst we had 15 covid pos in our hospital. Yesterday we had 3. Today there is 6.


And.....just like that our hospital is now full of covid and is on diversion


----------



## tirolski

Mathematicians came up with the concept of imaginary numbers, so there’s that.
The square root of -1. 
Identified as _i._


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> Mathematicians came up with the concept of imaginary numbers, so there’s that.


Which is just one of the non-obvious and difficult to understand ideas that underlie advanced technology, like the electric power system. So there's that.

You're welcome.

mm


----------



## tirolski

Electricity is somewhat easy to understand. Flows of electrons.
Magnetism is a subset and a tad harder at it’s core.
Light being both particles and waves is fascinating. 

Gracie.


----------



## Brownski

I have sympathy for CNY’s POV even though I don’t share it. The fact is that the communications on this have been terrible. In the very beginning it was probably because nobody knew which way was up and they thought they had to project a sense of authority and control that didn’t exist. Then it got political and all our leaders on both sides had a dual mission- whatever their actual job was + whatever helped them win politically.

For whatever reason there still seems to be some dissembling going on. I honestly don’t understand why the powers that be can’t have an honest discussion about natural immunity for instance. And I don’t understand why we seem to be pushing for 100% vaccination rates. 100% has never been required to defeat previous diseases. So I have questions, yeah.

All that being said, just because you think somebody is a liar doesn’t man that everything they say is a lie. Maybe because I work for a huge corporation, I’m just accustomed to sifting lies and half truths apart from useful information I can use to make reasonably good decisions. In this case, whatever questions I have about any of our leaders past or present isn’t enough to undermine my faith in modern medicine so, as I’ve said before, I got myself and the rest of my family vaccinated as soon as we were eligible.

Also, it does seem like some people are on the verge of hitting the panic button again, which I think is understandable because we are clearly going through another surge in cases. But it’s useful to think back on where we were a year ago and compare. My opinion is that we’ll get through this one faster and cleaner then the last one and that the next surge, which is surely coming, will be smaller and less deadly then this one.

This is a little old now but I think it’s still helpful for perspective, though some may find it political.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> But it’s useful to think back on where we were a year ago and compare.


Hospitals over capacity. Not enough nurses to provide care. We're back.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Hospitals over capacity. Not enough nurses to provide care. We're back.


I know. That sucks but I don’t think nationally the numbers are anywhere near what they were. My ex BIL got admitted and put on oxygen this week in NJ.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Hospitals over capacity. Not enough nurses to provide care. We're back.


That's what exponential growth is all about. It all looks like small numbers until it's not. By the time you see how bad it can be, it's too late to do much about it. If public health authorities intervene early and a catastrophe is avoided, then they're ignored the next time a threat is identified. 

We're screwed.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> Electricity is somewhat easy to understand....


... is what everyone who doesn't know anything about it says.

But what was your original point? That we should ignore the knowledge gained by actual geniuses because we don't understand it? Is the anti-vax movement a corollary of that? If Ignoring math and science becomes the new educational standard civilization will devolve back to subsistence farming. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Here's something Tim Miller wrote in a newsletter that found my in box. It pretty much sums up what I think about the whole vaccination issue.










The Triad


Three things to read, from JVL. Click to read The Triad, a Substack publication with hundreds of thousands of readers.




thetriad.thebulwark.com





​*1. The Vaxxed are Pissed *​_At this point, just having to talk about the state of the unvaccinated gets me pissed. And clearly, I’m not alone.

Whether it is hearing from friends who work in hospitals and are getting worn down by patients and family members who aren’t heeding their professional advice on the vaccine; worrying about a kid entering school this fall and having to mask; or looking at the death chart and finding hundreds of totally unnecessary deaths every day.

It’s all rage-inducing.

Consider this - despite having a damn miracle drug that all but eliminates deadly risk from the virus - there are still more deaths every single day in this country than assholes with massive platforms claimed there would be for the *entire pandemic*! And yet these same human sphincters continue spreading their lies, utterly remorseless.

Just typing this shit has my blood boiling.

So when I read JVL in this space last week calling for the end of the vaccine wars, I had a visceral negative reaction. As the saying goes, even a clock that is always right, is wrong twice a day (or something like that).

I utterly reject his call to let the unvaxxed lay down their unjabbed arms in peace.

We cannot continue to sit idly by as thousands die a week for no damn reason. We cannot continue to let our lives be hijacked by anti-vax charlatans and their enablers.

The politicians who facilitate such carnage must pay the price politically.

It’s past time for Democrats and the smattering of actively pro-vax GOP governors to up the ante and wage a pro-vaccine culture war of their own.

It starts with additional vaccine mandates, ASAP._


----------



## MarzNC

Here's one way "math" can be confusing. Suppose a population has 100,000 people. A local news report states that there are 25 people in the hospital with COVID-19, with 15 who are unvaccinated and 15 who are vaccinated. Sounds like being vaccinated doesn't help, doesn't it? What's missing is the vaccination rate for that population. Consider two situations:

1). 65% are vaccinated -> 0.65 x 100,000 = 65,000 vaccinated -> 15/65000 = 0.0002 = 0.02%
2). 35% are unvaccinated -> 0.04%

In this simplistic model, being unvaccinated means being twice as likely to be hospitalized.

Here's a real world situation where it seemed to some people that vaccination wasn't helpful but in fact the rate of infection was much higher for the unvaccinated people at Provincetown in early July. Overall, there were only 7 people hospitalized out of about 60,000 who partied on Cape Code that week. 90% of residents were vaccinated and perhaps 75% of travelers.

August 1, 2021, Medium, by physician who was at Provincetown








The Provincetown outbreak is actually good news (if you are vaccinated)


August 1, 2021 — by Ingu Yun, MD




inguyun.medium.com


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> Here's something Tim Miller wrote in a newsletter that found my in box. It pretty much sums up what I think about the whole vaccination issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Triad
> 
> 
> Three things to read, from JVL. Click to read The Triad, a Substack publication with hundreds of thousands of readers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thetriad.thebulwark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​*1. The Vaxxed are Pissed *​_At this point, just having to talk about the state of the unvaccinated gets me pissed. And clearly, I’m not alone.
> 
> Whether it is hearing from friends who work in hospitals and are getting worn down by patients and family members who aren’t heeding their professional advice on the vaccine; worrying about a kid entering school this fall and having to mask; or looking at the death chart and finding hundreds of totally unnecessary deaths every day.
> 
> It’s all rage-inducing.
> 
> Consider this - despite having a damn miracle drug that all but eliminates deadly risk from the virus - there are still more deaths every single day in this country than assholes with massive platforms claimed there would be for the *entire pandemic*! And yet these same human sphincters continue spreading their lies, utterly remorseless.
> 
> Just typing this shit has my blood boiling.
> 
> So when I read JVL in this space last week calling for the end of the vaccine wars, I had a visceral negative reaction. As the saying goes, even a clock that is always right, is wrong twice a day (or something like that).
> 
> I utterly reject his call to let the unvaxxed lay down their unjabbed arms in peace.
> 
> We cannot continue to sit idly by as thousands die a week for no damn reason. We cannot continue to let our lives be hijacked by anti-vax charlatans and their enablers.
> 
> The politicians who facilitate such carnage must pay the price politically.
> 
> It’s past time for Democrats and the smattering of actively pro-vax GOP governors to up the ante and wage a pro-vaccine culture war of their own.
> 
> It starts with additional vaccine mandates, ASAP._


I get you are pissed. I think you went too far with this. Post the link, and not all the text and I probably let it go.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Here's one way "math" can be confusing. Suppose a population has 100,000 people. A local news report states that there are 25 people in the hospital with COVID-19, with 15 who are unvaccinated and 15 who are vaccinated. Sounds like being vaccinated doesn't help, doesn't it? What's missing is the vaccination rate for that population. Consider two situations:
> 
> 1). 65% are vaccinated -> 0.65 x 100,000 = 65,000 vaccinated -> 15/65000 = 0.0002 = 0.02%
> 2). 35% are unvaccinated -> 0.04%
> 
> In this simplistic model, being unvaccinated means being twice as likely to be hospitalized.
> 
> Here's a real world situation where it seemed to some people that vaccination wasn't helpful but in fact the rate of infection was much higher for the unvaccinated people at Provincetown in early July. Overall, there were only 7 people hospitalized out of about 60,000 who partied on Cape Code that week. 90% of residents were vaccinated and perhaps 75% of travelers.
> 
> August 1, 2021, Medium, by physician who was at Provincetown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Provincetown outbreak is actually good news (if you are vaccinated)
> 
> 
> August 1, 2021 — by Ingu Yun, MD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> inguyun.medium.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 10090


Even when I understand it, it escapes me. I get it, but partly on faith.

It's better to be part of the 57,000 and risk being one of the 6, vs being part of the 3,000 and risk being the 1.


----------



## Brownski

This is also somewhat comforting to me. It’s not over yet and this doesn’t make any individual’s suffering easier but things are generally getting better. Honestly, based on my own memory I would have thought the spring numbers were bigger but I think that’s just based on my personal experience since I’m so close to the city and was working from home for two and a half months at the beginning.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Even when I understand it, it escapes me. I get it, but partly on faith.
> 
> It's better to be part of the 57,000 and risk being one of the 6, vs being part of the 3,000 and risk being the 1.


What's important is to account for a reasonable estimate of the denominator. Knowing that there are 10 people hospitalized doesn't mean much if you don't know if they are part of a subpopulation of 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000. Now that over 150,000 million Americans are vaccinated, there will be breakthrough cases that make news every so often. Unfortunately there will also be a lot of news about unvaccinated people of all ages who are overwhelming hospitals in places with low vaccinations rates (under 40% for adults).

I check the CDC summary for serious breakthrough cases every so often. About 8000 cases when there were 166 million people vaccinated.






COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC


Information and resources to help public health departments and laboratories investigate and report COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough cases.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> This is also somewhat comforting to me. It’s not over yet and this doesn’t make any individual’s suffering easier but things are generally getting better.


Clearly vaccinating over 160,000 million people in just a few months has made a big difference. We were lucky to have opened up vaccination eligibility to all adults just before Delta arrived.

As has been the case from the beginning, there is a lot of variation between regions and states. With vaccination, it's down to the county level. It's pretty clear to me that the counties in southwest Texas and along the Gulf that had overwhelmed hospitals in the winter have much higher vaccination rates. The mess is mostly in the counties of Texas that weren't in dire straights before.

I looked at Maine recently. The northern counties have pretty low vaccination rates even though overall the state vaccination rate is pretty good. The case numbers are rising there. Northern Maine didn't have many cases before Delta. I'm guessing that there are people there who thought they were "safe" and didn't need to be vaccinated. <sigh>

I use CovidActNow to look at an individual state. Trends (scroll down) is good for comparing a few states. I like being able to look at just the last 60 or 180 days.


----------



## CNY Skier

Tjf1967 said:


> That sounds valid. Are you doing anything to protect others?


If I feel sick (i.e. cold, etc.) I stay home for a few days just to be safe. I'm just getting over a "summer" cold (cough and congestion) and have laid low for awhile. I get a cold every summer but in this day and age I decided to play it safe. On any given day I am congested every morning when I wake up (especially in these hot, humid summer days) so it's hard to tell what might be going on. Plus I'm allergic to pollen...last year was brutal.

I'd ask, very respectfully, what are people doing to protect themselves? Staying fit/trip, taking vitamin supplements, etc.? Am I responsible for your well being?

This epidemic largely affects the unhealthy and the elderly (a condition that I am rapidly approaching!). The elderly are always susceptible to death from many causes and sadly none of us can live forever.

For the CDC worshippers in the crowd: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/cov...le-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html

The headline is "CDC study finds about 78% of people hospitalized for Covid were overweight or obese". I realize that this statistic is not definitive because 40% of the US falls into this category, but it makes sense that an obese person is already in an inflammatory condition and breathing can be tough on a good day. However the numbers work out, I think we (as a nation) would have done better if we were all a lot healthier.

I realize that we are "all in this together". My main concern is that the only focus is on covid; all other conditions (suicide, business closures, school shutdowns, despair, etc.) have been shoved aside. No one gives a shit about the restaurant owner that spent his/her whole life building a business only to be shut down by some bureaucrat that knows better.

Look at it this way: the world has close to 7.9 billion people and (if you believe the numbers) covid has killed 4.4 million people in the past year and a half. That amounts to 0.056% of the world population. In a sane world this would not even be talked about.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> It's pretty clear to me that the counties in southwest Texas and along the Gulf that had overwhelmed hospitals in the winter have much higher vaccination rates. The mess is mostly in the counties of Texas that weren't in dire straights before.


That's encouraging in a way.


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> ... is what everyone who doesn't know anything about it says.
> 
> But what was your original point? That we should ignore the knowledge gained by actual geniuses because we don't understand it? Is the anti-vax movement a corollary of that? If Ignoring math and science becomes the new educational standard civilization will devolve back to subsistence farming.
> 
> mm


Are you accusing me of not knowing anything about electricity?--Wrong if you assume this.
My point was math uses imaginary sometimes.--It’s a fact.
I’m not an anti-vexer.--Wrong to assume this.
Have a double major undergraduate degree in both Mathematics & Chemistry., & a graduate degree--I’ll never ignore Math & Science.
Farmers are the backbone of civilization.--I enjoy eating good food.

Gracie, prego, scusi


----------



## Tjf1967

CNY Skier said:


> If I feel sick (i.e. cold, etc.) I stay home for a few days just to be safe. I'm just getting over a "summer" cold (cough and congestion) and have laid low for awhile. I get a cold every summer but in this day and age I decided to play it safe. On any given day I am congested every morning when I wake up (especially in these hot, humid summer days) so it's hard to tell what might be going on. Plus I'm allergic to pollen...last year was brutal.
> 
> I'd ask, very respectfully, what are people doing to protect themselves? Staying fit/trip, taking vitamin supplements, etc.? Am I responsible for your well being?
> 
> This epidemic largely affects the unhealthy and the elderly (a condition that I am rapidly approaching!). The elderly are always susceptible to death from many causes and sadly none of us can live forever.
> 
> For the CDC worshippers in the crowd: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/cov...le-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html
> 
> The headline is "CDC study finds about 78% of people hospitalized for Covid were overweight or obese". I realize that this statistic is not definitive because 40% of the US falls into this category, but it makes sense that an obese person is already in an inflammatory condition and breathing can be tough on a good day. However the numbers work out, I think we (as a nation) would have done better if we were all a lot healthier.
> 
> I realize that we are "all in this together". My main concern is that the only focus is on covid; all other conditions (suicide, business closures, school shutdowns, despair, etc.) have been shoved aside. No one gives a shit about the restaurant owner that spent his/her whole life building a business only to be shut down by some bureaucrat that knows better.
> 
> Look at it this way: the world has close to 7.9 billion people and (if you believe the numbers) covid has killed 4.4 million people in the past year and a half. That amounts to 0.056% of the world population. In a sane world this would not even be talked about.


I'm fitter than most. Sticking with your logic. 2.5 billion vaccines have been administered. .0002 have had negative effects. You must see the positive impacts of it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

COVID Vaccine Hesitancy: 90 Million Still On the Fence
					

While some of these still unvaccinated people may actually be hesitant -- that is, they have serious questions about the safety or effectiveness of the vaccines -- many just outright refuse to get vaccinated.




					www.webmd.com
				




"While stereotypes about those with higher education levels or certain ethic groups more likely to get the vaccine abound, the new research did not always fit those notions. During the 5-month study period, those with a high school education showed the most movement toward vaccination and away from their previous hesitancy. The eye-opener: By May, the group with PhDs were more hesitant than those with lower educational levels."


----------



## Harvey

Sources: US to recommend COVID vaccine boosters at 8 months
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. experts are expected to recommend COVID-19 vaccine boosters for all Americans, regardless of age, eight months after they received their second dose of the shot, to ensure lasting protection against the coronavirus as the delta variant spreads across the country.




					apnews.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Sources: US to recommend COVID vaccine boosters at 8 months
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. experts are expected to recommend COVID-19 vaccine boosters for all Americans, regardless of age, eight months after they received their second dose of the shot, to ensure lasting protection against the coronavirus as the delta variant spreads across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


I'll be getting mine
My wife adores this one doc she works with. He's more concerned/scared now than the first go around due to how much more contagious this variant is. 
Take that for what it's worth.


----------



## Brownski

I hope that doesn’t slow down getting the rest of the world caught up on the first round of shots.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I hope that doesn’t slow down getting the rest of the world caught up on the first round of shots.


Honestly?!??? This shit has been around long enough. If someone isn't vaxed by now, oh well. Don't mean to sound harsh but that's the truth of it.


----------



## Harvey

Quick google yields this too:









						Alabama Just Tossed 65,000 Vaccines. Turns Out It's Not Easy To Donate Unused Doses
					

Alabama is one of the states throwing away COVID-19 doses as they expire. But other nations desperately need vaccines — and public health experts would like to see vaccines used instead of wasted.




					www.npr.org


----------



## tirolski

Latest excerpts from our FDA bout Pfizer-BioNTech’s vaccine:

_The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is a vaccine and may prevent you from getting COVID-19. There is no U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19.
It is your choice to receive the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine may not protect everyone.
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19. There is no FDA-approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19.
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine. In clinical trials, approximately 23,000 individuals 12 years of age and older have received at least 1 dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.
In an ongoing clinical trial, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine has been shown to prevent COVID-19 following 2 doses given 3 weeks apart. The duration of protection against COVID-19 is currently unknown.
Revised: 12 August 2021_

See:


https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Quick google yields this too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alabama Just Tossed 65,000 Vaccines. Turns Out It's Not Easy To Donate Unused Doses
> 
> 
> Alabama is one of the states throwing away COVID-19 doses as they expire. But other nations desperately need vaccines — and public health experts would like to see vaccines used instead of wasted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


This isn't cool


----------



## CNY Skier

Milo Maltbie said:


> Here's something Tim Miller wrote in a newsletter that found my in box. It pretty much sums up what I think about the whole vaccination issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Triad
> 
> 
> Three things to read, from JVL. Click to read The Triad, a Substack publication with hundreds of thousands of readers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thetriad.thebulwark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​*1. The Vaxxed are Pissed *​_At this point, just having to talk about the state of the unvaccinated gets me pissed. And clearly, I’m not alone.
> 
> Whether it is hearing from friends who work in hospitals and are getting worn down by patients and family members who aren’t heeding their professional advice on the vaccine; worrying about a kid entering school this fall and having to mask; or looking at the death chart and finding hundreds of totally unnecessary deaths every day.
> 
> It’s all rage-inducing.
> 
> Consider this - despite having a damn miracle drug that all but eliminates deadly risk from the virus - there are still more deaths every single day in this country than assholes with massive platforms claimed there would be for the *entire pandemic*! And yet these same human sphincters continue spreading their lies, utterly remorseless.
> 
> Just typing this shit has my blood boiling.
> 
> So when I read JVL in this space last week calling for the end of the vaccine wars, I had a visceral negative reaction. As the saying goes, even a clock that is always right, is wrong twice a day (or something like that).
> 
> I utterly reject his call to let the unvaxxed lay down their unjabbed arms in peace.
> 
> We cannot continue to sit idly by as thousands die a week for no damn reason. We cannot continue to let our lives be hijacked by anti-vax charlatans and their enablers.
> 
> The politicians who facilitate such carnage must pay the price politically.
> 
> It’s past time for Democrats and the smattering of actively pro-vax GOP governors to up the ante and wage a pro-vaccine culture war of their own.
> 
> It starts with additional vaccine mandates, ASAP._





Tjf1967 said:


> I'm fitter than most. Sticking with your logic. 2.5 billion vaccines have been administered. .0002 have had negative effects. You must see the positive impacts of it.





Campgottagopee said:


> COVID Vaccine Hesitancy: 90 Million Still On the Fence
> 
> 
> While some of these still unvaccinated people may actually be hesitant -- that is, they have serious questions about the safety or effectiveness of the vaccines -- many just outright refuse to get vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "While stereotypes about those with higher education levels or certain ethic groups more likely to get the vaccine abound, the new research did not always fit those notions. During the 5-month study period, those with a high school education showed the most movement toward vaccination and away from their previous hesitancy. The eye-opener: By May, the group with PhDs were more hesitant than those with lower educational levels."





Tjf1967 said:


> I'm fitter than most. Sticking with your logic. 2.5 billion vaccines have been administered. .0002 have had negative effects. You must see the positive impacts of it.


It's early in the game. I'd rather wait a year or two - not unreasonable as most vaccines must undergo several years of testing. Think Thalidomide (i.e. "flipper arms")...or the drug that my wife's mother took that greatly increases my wife's chance of getting cervical cancer. That said, stay fit my friend...better than any drug IMHO!


----------



## CNY Skier

tirolski said:


> Latest excerpts from our FDA bout Pfizer-BioNTech’s vaccine:
> 
> _The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is a vaccine and may prevent you from getting COVID-19. There is no U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19.
> It is your choice to receive the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.
> The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine may not protect everyone.
> The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19. There is no FDA-approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19.
> The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine. In clinical trials, approximately 23,000 individuals 12 years of age and older have received at least 1 dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.
> In an ongoing clinical trial, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine has been shown to prevent COVID-19 following 2 doses given 3 weeks apart. The duration of protection against COVID-19 is currently unknown.
> Revised: 12 August 2021_
> 
> See:
> 
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download





Campgottagopee said:


> COVID Vaccine Hesitancy: 90 Million Still On the Fence
> 
> 
> While some of these still unvaccinated people may actually be hesitant -- that is, they have serious questions about the safety or effectiveness of the vaccines -- many just outright refuse to get vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "While stereotypes about those with higher education levels or certain ethic groups more likely to get the vaccine abound, the new research did not always fit those notions. During the 5-month study period, those with a high school education showed the most movement toward vaccination and away from their previous hesitancy. The eye-opener: By May, the group with PhDs were more hesitant than those with lower educational levels."


Hmm...imagine that! Why on earth would a PhD be vaccine hesitant? Educated idiots???


----------



## Harvey

CNY Skier said:


> Thalidomide


I dodged that bullet. Doc was against it unlike most of his peers.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> Hmm...imagine that! Why on earth would a PhD be vaccine hesitant? Educated idiots???


Your words 
Not mine 
But I agree


----------



## tirolski

CNY Skier said:


> Hmm...imagine that! Why on earth would a PhD be vaccine hesitant? Educated idiots???


To be fair, grad schools have been filled for years with folks who couldn’t get a great job with a bachelors degree. 
I wouldn’t call them educated idiots though. 
Maybe just folks who’d rather learn & hang at campuses than work ("at a job that’s beneath them”).


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> I wouldn’t call them educated idiots though.


Not all, but some. I know a few. Great people but have the common sense of a door knob, and god help them if they have to change a flat tire. A dude in our camp graduated Cornell with a 3.9 --- smartest dumb guy you'll ever meet in your life!! lol


----------



## trackbiker

There's big difference between a PhD in Chemistry, Physics, or Engineering verses a PhD in Italian Literature, Art History, or Philosophy. Some of the later haven't had a science course since high school.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Amid new virus surge, Florida skeptics reconsider vaccines


CALLAHAN, Fla. (AP) — In a rural stretch of northeastern Florida where barely half the people have gotten a coronavirus shot, Roger West had no problem telling others he was "adamantly anti-vaccination. " The co-owner of the Westside Journal weekly newspaper used his voice as a columnist to...




cnycentral.com


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> Not all, but some. I know a few. Great people but have the common sense of a door knob, and god help them if they have to change a flat tire. A dude in our camp graduated Cornell with a 3.9 --- smartest dumb guy you'll ever meet in your life!! lol


Lol
My kid went to Cornell and MIT. The other day 
I had to change the wax ring on the toilet
She looked at me like I fixed the space shuttle.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Lol
> My kid went to Cornell and MIT. The other day
> I had to change the wax ring on the toilet
> She looked at me like I fixed the space shuttle.


EXACTLY!!! You get it....lol


----------



## MarzNC

As with any topic, much depends on how people pay attention to an issue. There were plenty of people who were surprised when the first wave of COVID-19 hit the U.S. It was no surprise to people who knew what had happened in Italy and around Boston by early March. The first detected COVID-19 cases in Colorado happened in Feb 2020, but weren't making national headlines.

The primary reason that people in other continents or countries are behind on vaccination is vaccine supply or access. Canada was slow to start their vaccine rollout because shipments weren't expected to be needed so soon given that the non-pharmaceutical approaches like masking were keeping community spread from getting out of control. Australia and New Zealand got behind the Delta curve because they didn't think it would matter if the majority of their citizens didn't get vaccinated until late 2021. They have had to resort to "lock downs" because of Delta. Most countries in Africa are dependent on COVAX, which in turn depends on donations of money and/or vaccines from relatively rich countries.

Staying safe from being infected by COVID-19 is not that complicated. Assuming someone understands knows the definition of "aerosols" and how SARS-CoV-2 can grab a ride in them. That was a major source of confusion early on. Still not well understood by people who refuse to believe that masking for K-12 schools is important to help keep kids and teachers safe.

May 13, 2021, Wired








The 60-Year-Old Scientific Screwup That Helped Covid Kill


All pandemic long, scientists brawled over how the virus spreads. Droplets! No, aerosols! At the heart of the fight was a teensy error with huge consequences.




www.wired.com


----------



## wonderpony

> As with any topic, much depends on how people pay attention to an issue. There were plenty of people who were surprised when the first wave of COVID-19 hit the U.S. It was no surprise to people who knew what had happened in Italy and around Boston by early March. The first detected COVID-19 cases in Colorado happened in Feb 2020, but weren't making national headlines.


COVID information was on NPR in early 2020. I was hearing about it on the way to GP. I figured that it was only a matter of time before it made its way to Cornell, because we are such an international community. One of my coworkers had no clue what was going on. In early March, I checked with my supervisor about whether or not my coworkers had remote access capability for working from home. She didn't think we needed to do that. About a week later, we received the information that we would be fully remote within a week.


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> Lol
> My kid went to Cornell and MIT. The other day
> I had to change the wax ring on the toilet
> She looked at me like I fixed the space shuttle.


Reminds of the saying that a physician makes the worst patient. Some think they know better than the doctor or nurse who is trying to help them when they are sick.

Academic background doesn't always help in real world situations. Some of the academics being quoted about the pandemic suggest solutions that are impractical because they don't take into account human behavior. Doesn't mean that their advice is inherently bad, but it may cause unanticipated issues.


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> Amid new virus surge, Florida skeptics reconsider vaccines
> 
> 
> CALLAHAN, Fla. (AP) — In a rural stretch of northeastern Florida where barely half the people have gotten a coronavirus shot, Roger West had no problem telling others he was "adamantly anti-vaccination. " The co-owner of the Westside Journal weekly newspaper used his voice as a columnist to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnycentral.com


Interesting to see news about FL in central NY. There have been articles like this for a couple months in Arkansas, Missouri, Louisiana, and even the parts of California that have low vaccination rates . But they were in local papers and not making national headlines until recently.

Delta is making a huge difference because it's so much more transmissible. For places with low vaccination rates, it's back to "flatten the curve." Doesn't matter if it's a town, a county, or a country that had very few detected cases in 2020. The difference is that vaccination is an option if there is access and availability for people who want to decrease the risk of serious illness. The risk of death is only high for those who are unvaccinated and do not take recommended precautions like masking or avoiding crowds. Those who don't take precautions and also don't understand when to get tested, and wait too long after minor symptoms start put themselves at higher risk of hospitalization. No wonder people working in hospitals are frustrated.


----------



## MarzNC

Even when vaccines became more available, many Australians thought there was no reason to get vaccinated since they believed COVID-19 had been all but eliminated there. But once Delta arrived, the fact that so many people are tired of lock downs has meant that the numbers of detected cases grew exponentially after a few super spreader events. One was a birthday party attended by 40+ people. In the early news, the 6 vaccinated people there were the only ones who didn't test positive. The unvaccinated people also infected members of their households in the few days after the party. After a week or so, it was clear there were people who didn't want to admit to being at the party. So they didn't get tested and probably added to community spread. The situation in August 2021 in Australia seems quite unreal given how much more is known about COVID-19 compared to a year ago. 

August 18, 2021








NSW Covid update: daily cases surge to 633 as Gladys Berejiklian dismisses calls to tighten lockdown rules


Non-urgent elective surgery at private hospitals postponed as staff redeployed to public system that government admits is ‘under stress’




www.theguardian.com





The ski resorts in New South Wales had to shut down. Includes Perisher and Thredbo, which are on Epic/Ikon. There is an Epic Australia pass. This is the best part of the Australian season. But there are pretty intense travel restrictions against crossing state lines for non-essential travel.


----------



## MarzNC

Colleges are a good indication of a shift in attitudes about masking and the risk of community spread of COVID-19. As has happened before in the last 18 months, the situation is changing fast. The difference is that more people have experience with the impact that public health measures can make. There are far more ways to get tested and more people willing to be tested. Hopefully that will help given that it takes several weeks for someone to be fully vaccinated. Protection against Delta is much better after two shots of Moderna/Pfizer, which most people seem to prefer over the 1-shot J&J.

August 18, 2021








Clemson, U. of South Carolina Require Masks After State Supreme Court Ruling


The South Carolina Supreme Court ruled on Tuesday that public colleges could implement mask requirements.




www.chronicle.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Delta is making a huge difference because it's so much more transmissible. For places with low vaccination rates, it's back to "flatten the curve." Doesn't matter if it's a town, a county, or a country that had very few detected cases in 2020. The difference is that vaccination is an option if there is access and availability for people who want to decrease the risk of serious illness. The risk of death is only high for those who are unvaccinated and do not take recommended precautions like masking or avoiding crowds. Those who don't take precautions and also don't understand when to get tested, and wait too long after minor symptoms start put themselves at higher risk of hospitalization. No wonder people working in hospitals are frustrated.


What bout Israel havin a very high vaccination rate and high increase in hospitalizations now?




__





Science | AAAS







www.sciencemag.org


----------



## Scrundy

Campgottagopee said:


> Amid new virus surge, Florida skeptics reconsider vaccines
> 
> 
> CALLAHAN, Fla. (AP) — In a rural stretch of northeastern Florida where barely half the people have gotten a coronavirus shot, Roger West had no problem telling others he was
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnycentral.com


"I do not trust the Federal Government," West wrote recently. "I do not trust Dr. Fauci, I do not trust the medical profession, nor the pharmaceutical giants

This^^^ haven’t for years.

The Feds for their policies.

The whole medical field included big pharma, reason being people are treated like cash cows not humans. 

Fauci… well wait a week I could change my mind ?


----------



## wonderpony

I started a spreadsheet last year to keep track of Cornell's numbers. From August 18, 2020 - August 16 2021, they picked up a total of 1,148 cases in their mandatory testing program. This does not include those who actually had COVID and got tested. Cornell's population last year was 23620. That means that 4.86 percent of Cornell's population tested positive last year. I guess that's not tooooo bad, considering that the vaccine wasn't available for half of that time.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> What bout Israel havin a very high vaccination rate and high increase in hospitalizations now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencemag.org


Yep, Delta is more transmissible. Are the Israelis using any other public health measures besides thinking that vaccination is enough? Meaning masking indoors or social distancing? Non-pharmaceutical precautions work but depend on human behavior. Most people just want to "get a shot" and then do whatever they like after that.

From the article:
_"What is clear is that “breakthrough” cases are not the rare events the term implies. As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older."_

The thinking seems to be that 8 months may be an appropriate timeframe for a booster shot. Probably more important for vulnerable people like seniors. They were the first to get vaccinated in most countries. Will also be important for healthcare workers.


----------



## MarzNC

We are in the midst of a pandemic of a novel coronavirus. Viruses mutate. SARS-CoV-2 has unusual properties. Being contagious with no symptoms is a major difference from the other novel coronaviruses of the 21st century (SARS, MERS). Also seems to be the case that SARS-CoV-2 mutates more often.

We are lucky that vaccine development and research methods related to detection, treatment, epidemiology can move faster than 10-20 years ago. The amount that has been learned in the last 18 months is amazing. But the general public is not usually aware of all the twists and turns that happen during medical or scientific research. Nor do they care for the most part. <sigh>


----------



## Campgottagopee

Scrundy said:


> "I do not trust the Federal Government," West wrote recently. "I do not trust Dr. Fauci, I do not trust the medical profession, nor the pharmaceutical giants
> 
> This^^^ haven’t for years.
> 
> The Feds for their policies.
> 
> The whole medical field included big pharma, reason being people are treated like cash cows not humans.
> 
> Fauci… well wait a week I could change my mind ?


I can't disagree with anything you're saying.

That's why I listen to my own doc.


----------



## CNY Skier

MarzNC said:


> We are in the midst of a pandemic of a novel coronavirus. Viruses mutate. SARS-CoV-2 has unusual properties. Being contagious with no symptoms is a major difference from the other novel coronaviruses of the 21st century (SARS, MERS). Also seems to be the case that SARS-CoV-2 mutates more often.
> 
> We are lucky that vaccine development and research methods related to detection, treatment, epidemiology can move faster than 10-20 years ago.  The amount that has been learned in the last 18 months is amazing. But the general public is not usually aware of all the twists and turns that happen during medical or scientific research. Nor do they care for the most part. <sigh>


From what I can gather your background includes way more statistical analysis than I have so I'll try to lay things out as best I can. 

What irks me is that the narrative on this whole mess changes daily and is not consistent with proper scientific method. We started with "flatten the curve", moved on to "stay away from people" then "wear a mask" (useless). Then we were subjected to the PCR test (proven to be nearly useless and the FDA recently admitted that it _does not_ differentiate between covid and influenza) and for the first time that I can remember we begged _all _people (not just symptomatic people) to get a "test". Our mentally challenged County Executive today said "Our positive rate is high but once the SU students get back and get tested I'm sure the rate will drop." No shit, Sherlock.

Then we asked test-positive people (even those without symptoms) to isolate/quarantine. Next we heard "the vaccine" (it _is not_ a vaccine) will save us; "if you get the vaccine then life will get back to normal." Then we heard that "95% of hospitalizations were from the un-vaxed." We then learned that close to half of the hospitalizations are from the vaxed - in Israel it's closer to 80%. Now the public health officials/media are talking about a booster shot like it was always part of the plan...nothing to see here.

Then there's the vaccine. None of them use Covid-19 as a base; Moderna & Pfizer shots instruct the body to produce spike proteins...but wait, aren't spike proteins what cause the majority of the physiological problems from covid? You know, blood clots, etc.? Sure, the body mounts a response but you're basically giving covid to everyone who gets the shot. It's already been observed that these spike proteins _do not_ stay at the injection site but travel to all organs of the body. Genius...what could possibly go wrong?

I suspect that a large number of people that got the vaccine will decline to get the promoted booster shots. I am also quite confident that the "cases" will subside for the next month or two and then balloon come October...just like last year. IMHO natural immunity is the only thing that will save us. Human beings have a propensity to think they can outwit nature, God, etc.


----------



## Harvey

Scrundy said:


> The whole medical field included big pharma, reason being people are treated like cash cows not humans.


+1

Healthcare is a business. Regulated to some degree, but still a business. And in this case it was certainly subsidized.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> We then learned that close to half of the hospitalizations are from the vaxed


I don't recall hearing that the vax would keep you from getting covid, rather improve your odds of not dying by 300%. I'll take those odds. 
We had a covid death in our local hospital just a couple days ago. Not vaxed. As MC said, may the odds forever be in your favor. Yours, my 2 BIL's, and the handful of my friends that won't get vaxed.
With college students returning soon it will be an even bigger shit show than it is now. We're done going out to dinner at places we can't sit outside. This thing spreads like wildfire.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Healthcare is a business. Regulated to some degree, but still a business. And in this case it was certainly subsidized.


Tis highly regulated. Think of FDA and it’s laws. 
Science is highly subsidized too.
Patents protect “intellectual property” for a period of time as a tradeoff to keepin trade secrets.


----------



## Harvey

CNY Skier said:


> We then learned that close to half of the hospitalizations are from the vaxed



Where is this? In what location? Link?


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> We are in the midst of a pandemic of a novel coronavirus. Viruses mutate. SARS-CoV-2 has unusual properties. Being contagious with no symptoms is a major difference from the other novel coronaviruses of the 21st century (SARS, MERS).


Asymptomatic spread has been a factor fueling contagious conditions for SARS-CoV-2.

What if havin more folks vaxed, amelioratin their symptoms, allows for more spread?


----------



## MC2

jasonwx said:


> Lol
> My kid went to Cornell and MIT. The other day
> I had to change the wax ring on the toilet
> She looked at me like I fixed the space shuttle.





MarzNC said:


> As with any topic, much depends on how people pay attention to an issue.


I also didn’t know shit about wax rings on toilets until I had to replace a toilet, then YouTubed the solution & fixed it.

You don’t know what you don’t know.

I’m more upset about people who “know” something that is absolute bullshit.


----------



## MC2

MarzNC said:


> . Most people just want to "get a shot" and then do whatever they like after that.


Hell yes this is what I’m doing. Can’t live life in fear forever.

If they say I need a booster shot, I’ll get one, but perpetual masking & distancing is:
1. Not realistic
2. Depressing as hell
3. Probably going to backfire and make populations more susceptible to disease (this point is just speculation, but I feel like a population that doesn’t expose itself to occasional stresses is highly vulnerable)


----------



## MC2

tirolski said:


> What if havin more folks vaxed, amelioratin their symptoms, allows for more spread?


What is the alternative in this scenario, just so I can figure out what you are saying?


----------



## tirolski

Did ya read the article recently published in Science & posted here yesterday bout Israel?

I’m not gonna do alternative realities for ya, yer on yer own there.


----------



## x10003q

CNY Skier said:


> From what I can gather your background includes way more statistical analysis than I have so I'll try to lay things out as best I can.
> 
> What irks me is that the narrative on this whole mess changes daily and is not consistent with proper scientific method. We started with "flatten the curve", moved on to "stay away from people" then "wear a mask" (useless). Then we were subjected to the PCR test (proven to be nearly useless and the FDA recently admitted that it _does not_ differentiate between covid and influenza) and for the first time that I can remember we begged _all _people (not just symptomatic people) to get a "test". Our mentally challenged County Executive today said "Our positive rate is high but once the SU students get back and get tested I'm sure the rate will drop." No shit, Sherlock.
> 
> Then we asked test-positive people (even those without symptoms) to isolate/quarantine. Next we heard "the vaccine" (it _is not_ a vaccine) will save us; "if you get the vaccine then life will get back to normal." Then we heard that "95% of hospitalizations were from the un-vaxed." We then learned that close to half of the hospitalizations are from the vaxed - in Israel it's closer to 80%. Now the public health officials/media are talking about a booster shot like it was always part of the plan...nothing to see here.
> 
> Then there's the vaccine. None of them use Covid-19 as a base; Moderna & Pfizer shots instruct the body to produce spike proteins...but wait, aren't spike proteins what cause the majority of the physiological problems from covid? You know, blood clots, etc.? Sure, the body mounts a response but you're basically giving covid to everyone who gets the shot. It's already been observed that these spike proteins _do not_ stay at the injection site but travel to all organs of the body. Genius...what could possibly go wrong?
> 
> I suspect that a large number of people that got the vaccine will decline to get the promoted booster shots. I am also quite confident that the "cases" will subside for the next month or two and then balloon come October...just like last year. IMHO natural immunity is the only thing that will save us. Human beings have a propensity to think they can outwit nature, God, etc.


Oh look, another long screed full of falsehoods by a scientist.
What you wrote about Isreal is completely wrong (as of yesterday, basic vaccinated hospitalization in Israel
is 58.4% which is nothing like 80%), although who among us is not surprised by your inability to understand data. 
Here is a link that you might try to read that will explain:









						Israeli data: How can efficacy vs. severe disease be strong when 60% of hospitalized are vaccinated?
					

A surge involving the rapidly-transmitting Delta variant in heavily vaccinated countries has led to much hand-wringing that the vaccines are not effective against Delta, or vaccine effectivenss wanes after 4-6 months.  This has fueled anti-vaccine sentiment suggesting the vaccines are not...




					www.covid-datascience.com
				




Read it or not - just know that, once again, you are wrong.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Where is this? In what location? Link?


Read this for the answer, by the way it is 58.4%, not 80%.








						Israeli data: How can efficacy vs. severe disease be strong when 60% of hospitalized are vaccinated?
					

A surge involving the rapidly-transmitting Delta variant in heavily vaccinated countries has led to much hand-wringing that the vaccines are not effective against Delta, or vaccine effectivenss wanes after 4-6 months.  This has fueled anti-vaccine sentiment suggesting the vaccines are not...




					www.covid-datascience.com


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Israeli data: How can efficacy vs. severe disease be strong when 60% of hospitalized are vaccinated?
> 
> 
> A surge involving the rapidly-transmitting Delta variant in heavily vaccinated countries has led to much hand-wringing that the vaccines are not effective against Delta, or vaccine effectivenss wanes after 4-6 months.  This has fueled anti-vaccine sentiment suggesting the vaccines are not...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.covid-datascience.com



This is incredibly helpful thank you.

So the unvaxed group was 3.1x more likely to get hospitalized than the vaxed group.

And because of the way the vax has rolled out, the vaxed group is way more vulnerable than the unvaxed group. Far older is the big thing. For example nobody under 12 is in the vaxed group. And over 90% of people 50+ are vaxed.

And also the vax is not as good against Delta vs Alpha.


----------



## MC2

tirolski said:


> I’m not gonna do alternative realities for ya, yer on yer own there.


I’m just wondering what the alternative is, in your thinking, to having more people vaccinated, which you seem to think is causing more spread.

What would you like to see (from our leaders, from the CDC, etc.) to solve the issue that you raised?


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> I’m just wondering what the alternative is, in your thinking, to having more people vaccinated, which you seem to think is causing more spread.
> 
> What would you like to see (from our leaders, from the CDC, etc.) to solve the issue that you raised?


Just asked a hypothetical question and didn’t say it was true.

If true, then the segregation of folks by vaccination status may be a red herring, just sayin.

To answer yer question, I’m not in a position to see a final solution to the issue, if true. 
I would like to see more dissemination of information on how folks can have a strong immune system, but many would still ignore. 

Best is to respect & help others and be aware of yer surroundings and health.


----------



## MC2

tirolski said:


> Just asked a hypothetical question and didn’t say it was true



Yikes.


tirolski said:


> If true….



Double yikes.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Best is to respect & help others and be aware of yer surroundings and health.


Concur


----------



## Campgottagopee

We could do this



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/covid-new-zealand-lockdown-ardern/2021/08/17/c92dc658-ff11-11eb-87e0-7e07bd9ce270_story.html


----------



## D.B. Cooper

jasonwx said:


> My kid went to Cornell and MIT. The other day
> I had to change the wax ring on the toilet
> She looked at me like I fixed the space shuttle.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> We could do this
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/covid-new-zealand-lockdown-ardern/2021/08/17/c92dc658-ff11-11eb-87e0-7e07bd9ce270_story.html



That is amazing: 26 deaths all time from covid with a 20% vax rate.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> That is amazing: 26 deaths all time from covid with a 20% vax rate.


Much to be said for keep your circle small


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Harvey said:


> That is amazing: 26 deaths all time from covid with a 20% vax rate.


Dictatorship is an effective form of government.....but it's a dictatorship.
https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/alert-level-4/


----------



## Harvey

I don't know much about the govt of NZ. I guess the dictators don't believe in the vax.

Being an island probably doesn't hurt.


----------



## tirolski

Got milk?








						Existing drugs kill SARS-CoV2 in cells
					

A groundbreaking study from U-M reveals several drug contenders already in use for other purposes—including one dietary supplement—that have been shown to block or reduce SARS-CoV2 infection in cells.



					www.eurekalert.org


----------



## wonderpony

Deep thought while vacuuming...

Really COVID is here to stay, at least for a while. That seems to be a fact. Therefore, you seem to have a few options about how to deal with it:

1) Ignore it and hope it will go away - no masking or social distancing 
2) Choose not to get vaccinated for whatever reason
3) Acknowledge that we are in a pandemic and hide by not going out into the world, maybe vaccinated, maybe not
4) Get vaccinated and hide anyhow
5) Accept the fact that COVID is here to stay. Adjust your lifestyle to the fact that this totally sucks, but if you sit in front of one more zoom meeting, you and your monitor are going to have major issues. A new monitor is expensive, and apparently, computer chips are hard to come by because of the pandemic. Buy more masks. Accept that yoga in a mask sucks. Look forward to ski season, knowing you will be wearing a mask in the lift line.

I'm gong with number 5.


----------



## Harvey

I hate zoom.

THIS IS AWESOME, click through and watch the video...









Military medical team arrives at Ochsner LGMC







www.katc.com


----------



## D.B. Cooper

wonderpony said:


> Really COVID is here to stay, at least for a while. That seems to be a fact. Therefore, you seem to have a few options about how to deal with it:
> 
> 1) Ignore it and hope it will go away - no masking or social distancing
> 2) Choose not to get vaccinated for whatever reason
> 3) Acknowledge that we are in a pandemic and hide by not going out into the world, maybe vaccinated, maybe not
> 4) Get vaccinated and hide anyhow
> 5) Accept the fact that COVID is here to stay. Adjust your lifestyle to the fact that this totally sucks, but if you sit in front of one more zoom meeting, you and your monitor are going to have major issues. A new monitor is expensive, and apparently, computer chips are hard to come by because of the pandemic. Buy more masks. Accept that yoga in a mask sucks. Look forward to ski season, knowing you will be wearing a mask in the lift line.


I'll take no. 1. I don't care if someone doesn't get the vaccination, but I really don't understand why we cater to them.


----------



## Harvey

D.B. Cooper said:


> I'll take no. 1. I don't care if someone doesn't get the vaccination, but I really don't understand why we cater to them.



It's expensive (more than just $$) when they get sick?

I assume it's about the variants. Delta seems to have started in India, so even if the US was 90% vaxed it would exist. But how different would life be? I don't know.


----------



## Campgottagopee

D.B. Cooper said:


> I'll take no. 1. I don't care if someone doesn't get the vaccination, but I really don't understand why we cater to them.



I can't disagree with you, but my feelings are mixed. I totally get the "my body my choice", but it's hard to want to help someone who seemingly doesn't want to help him or herself.





__





Loading…






www.washingtonpost.com


----------



## Harvey

I saw that article. That's one approach.

We did a million doses yesterday which is quite a jump. I guess there's nothing like seeing your family/friends/neighbors die to change your mind.

I was looking at the cases for New York. Cases up a lot, but deaths only slightly.


----------



## Warp daddy

And HERE we go and so it begins ! Health insurance costs to rise for unvaxxed .

Next will be employers who raise the participant premium cost for health insurance










COVID-19 hospitalizations are getting more expensive for patients


With vaccines readily available, many patients are once again on the hook for deductibles and co-pays.




www.axios.com


----------



## Warp daddy

Bottom line : You cannot protect a fool from their destiny and that is what is now playing out


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I assume it's about the variants. Delta seems to have started in India, so even if the US was 90% vaxed it would exist. But how different would life be? I don't know.


To get an idea of how the "new normal" can be when there is a high vaccination rate before Delta spreads, look at Canada. I haven't had time to look lately since I'm on a very fun trip, but I don't have the sense that there are places with deaths that are because hospitals are overwhelmed.

The counties in the U.S. that have the biggest problems in hospitals right now mostly have vaccination rates below 40%. Detected case numbers aren't the best measure to check because of Delta. Hospitalization and death numbers are unfortunately the best indicators of how bad the situation is or will be in the coming weeks for a given town/county/city/state.


----------



## MarzNC

Warp daddy said:


> Bottom line : You cannot protect a fool from their destiny and that is what is now playing out


Also called "culling the herd." A friend who is a nurse in New England said that back in early March 2020.

My worry are the children who are too young to be vaccinated and are surrounded by adults who have no clue about COVID-19 and how it's transmitted by people who have no symptoms. In some counties in NC, my guess is that the Percent Positive is super high most of the testing is being done on patients in the hospital. Meaning many people in those counties who aren't vaccinated also aren't getting tested for minor symptoms. A few counties have Percent Positive over 20%. That never happened in NC in 2020 with the original strain.


----------



## MC2

Tjf1967 said:


> There is a lot that is known. I have to believe that if it came from an animal than somewhere where it originated would have had covid. They can't find any cases like that. I don't care if it did come from the lab. Shit happens. I don't see how it could have come from any other place.


What’s your educational background in infectious disease origins, bud?

Is it possible that you don’t know shit about it, and other people know more?


----------



## Tjf1967

MC2 said:


> What’s your educational background in infectious disease origins, bud?
> 
> Is it possible that you don’t know shit about it, and other people know more?



I am not schooled in infectious disease.. My reading comprehension is in tact. What's your opinion where it originated..


----------



## MC2

1. Who gives a fuck where I, a geologist, think it originated?
2. I don’t know shit about it

(I wish more people would just admit that, so the internet wasn’t full of dumb speculation by people who don’t know shit about Wuhan, couldn’t point it out on a map, and have no idea how viruses come into being)


----------



## Harvey

MC2 said:


> (I wish more people would just admit that, so the internet wasn’t full of dumb speculation by people who don’t know shit about Wuhan, couldn’t point it out on a map, and have no idea how viruses come into being)



So basically cancel the internet?


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> So basically cancel the internet?


It is often offensive, to someone, somewhere


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> It is often offensive, to someone, somewhere


I heard that the aliens don’t give a shit.


----------



## CNY Skier

Campgottagopee said:


> I don't recall hearing that the vax would keep you from getting covid, rather improve your odds of not dying by 300%. I'll take those odds.
> We had a covid death in our local hospital just a couple days ago. Not vaxed. As MC said, may the odds forever be in your favor. Yours, my 2 BIL's, and the handful of my friends that won't get vaxed.
> With college students returning soon it will be an even bigger shit show than it is now. We're done going out to dinner at places we can't sit outside. This thing spreads like wildfire.


Agreed - I knew this as well because I read a lot. However my wife and kids thought it was like...a vaccine. I think if you ask most people they would say the same thing. Or maybe not - my sample size (acquaintances) is very small these days.


----------



## CNY Skier

Harvey said:


> Where is this? In what location? Link?


Clearly I made a mistake on that comment - should have said "40% of all new cases are from vaccinated people". Based on a comment made by our County Executive. 









40% of local Covid-19 cases are in the vaccinated. What does that say about the vaccines?


Onondaga County won't say how many fully vaccinated people end up in the hospital.




www.syracuse.com


----------



## CNY Skier

x10003q said:


> Oh look, another long screed full of falsehoods by a scientist.
> What you wrote about Isreal is completely wrong (as of yesterday, basic vaccinated hospitalization in Israel
> is 58.4% which is nothing like 80%), although who among us is not surprised by your inability to understand data.
> Here is a link that you might try to read that will explain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli data: How can efficacy vs. severe disease be strong when 60% of hospitalized are vaccinated?
> 
> 
> A surge involving the rapidly-transmitting Delta variant in heavily vaccinated countries has led to much hand-wringing that the vaccines are not effective against Delta, or vaccine effectivenss wanes after 4-6 months. This has fueled anti-vaccine sentiment suggesting the vaccines are not...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.covid-datascience.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read it or not - just know that, once again, you are wrong.


I read it - seems you are correct and I'm now not sure were I got 80% instead of ~ 60%. May need some new eye glasses! In any event it struck me as odd that over 1/2 of the hospitalizations were from "vaccinated" people. I realize that Israel has a very high number of people that took the shot so by default the numbers will skew that way. Not sure why you'd make the comments about my scientific abilities but no big deal - just trying to understand this strange time in history. We all have a tendency to beat on each other but in the end it's more important to find the truth.

Were there other "falsehoods" that you would like to discuss?


----------



## CNY Skier

D.B. Cooper said:


> I'll take no. 1. I don't care if someone doesn't get the vaccination, but I really don't understand why we cater





wonderpony said:


> Deep thought while vacuuming...
> 
> Really COVID is here to stay, at least for a while. That seems to be a fact. Therefore, you seem to have a few options about how to deal with it:
> 
> 1) Ignore it and hope it will go away - no masking or social distancing
> 2) Choose not to get vaccinated for whatever reason
> 3) Acknowledge that we are in a pandemic and hide by not going out into the world, maybe vaccinated, maybe not
> 4) Get vaccinated and hide anyhow
> 5) Accept the fact that COVID is here to stay. Adjust your lifestyle to the fact that this totally sucks, but if you sit in front of one more zoom meeting, you and your monitor are going to have major issues. A new monitor is expensive, and apparently, computer chips are hard to come by because of the pandemic. Buy more masks. Accept that yoga in a mask sucks. Look forward to ski season, knowing you will be wearing a mask in the lift line.
> 
> I'm gong with number 5.


2. Use natural means to boost your immunity (vitamins, minerals, etc) and try to not be in the group of comorbidities with the highest death rate.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> So basically cancel the internet?


Just like, maybe people should cut down on the wild speculation about things they know absolutely nothing about. Or at least have the balls to say “I don’t know”

Doesn’t seem like a big ask.


----------



## Harvey

CNY Skier said:


> try to not be in the group of comorbidities with the highest death rate


Haha solid advice. I'm tryin ?


----------



## Harvey

In one of the other threads someone admitted they were wrong so maybe there's hope.


----------



## Tjf1967

MC2 said:


> 1. Who gives a fuck where I, a geologist, think it originated?
> 2. I don’t know shit about it
> 
> (I wish more people would just admit that, so the internet wasn’t full of dumb speculation by people who don’t know shit about Wuhan, couldn’t point it out on a map, and have no idea how viruses come into being)


I read your first bullet and have to agree with you in that. Carry on.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> I think my point was, nobody knows shit about shit, so posts like this are irresponsible at best:


Wrong 
Somebody, somewhere knows exactly what happened. I for one would like to know how, who, and why started this fucking pandemic. Don't you? 
What we have now is like having your house burn down and the only answer you get is, something got hot.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Wrong
> Somebody, somewhere knows exactly what happened. I for one would like to know how, who, and why started this fucking pandemic. Don't you?
> What we have now is like having your house burn down and the only answer you get is, something got hot.


I think the “we MUST BLAME SOMEONE” sentiment is misguided, especially because you don’t know that your first “fact” is true.

Maybe something you couldn’t control (a forest fire?) started burning the house down. I’m more concerned with putting the fire out than with assigning blame.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Wrong
> Somebody, somewhere knows exactly what happened. I for one would like to know how, who, and why started this fucking pandemic. Don't you?
> What we have now is like having your house burn down and the only answer you get is, something got hot.


Accidents happen. If it was known and covered-up, folks have some explainin to do.
Possibly coming from a lab was a conspiracy theory in the beginning. 
If ya let folks go pick up viral bat shit to study them, shit happens.
If it was intentional some know, but doubt many do, and we may never.
Wuhan ain’t the only place with them there viralability labs.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> I think the “we MUST BLAME SOMEONE” sentiment is misguided, especially because you don’t know that your first “fact” is true.
> 
> Maybe something you couldn’t control (a forest fire?) started burning the house down. I’m more concerned with putting the fire out than with assigning blame.


Where did I say I wanted to place blame? You enjoy putting words in others mouth's. In case you haven't noticed this pandemic is kind of a big deal. If we can identify the who, how, and why maybe we can prevent this bullshit from happening again. And no, I won't accept the something got hot answer.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Where did I say I wanted to place blame?


I’m sorry, this looked like you wanted to place blame:


Campgottagopee said:


> Somebody, somewhere knows exactly what happened. I for one would like to know how, who, and why started this fucking pandemic. Don't you?


Also, the rest of your post made it sound like you wanted to place blame because you wanted to “prevent this bullshit from happening again”, when it’s possible that you can’t prevent this bullshit from happening again, any more than you could prevent bird flu or swine flu.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> I’m sorry, this looked like you wanted to place blame:
> 
> Also, the rest of your post made it sound like you wanted to place blame because you wanted to “prevent this bullshit from happening again”, when it’s possible that you can’t prevent this bullshit from happening again, any more than you could prevent bird flu or swine flu.


Right. Do we know where bird flu and swine flu originated?
It is possible that we'll never know, that is true. It's also possible that we can find out, but you don't seem to want to accept that and just shrug it off. The way this pandemic has effected those around me, I want to know the who, and why, if we can.
Does that better explain my position?


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> .
> Does that better explain my position?


Not really, but I kinda stopped caring about this conversation, so I’m going to go over to the golf thread and see how people are playing lately.


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> I’m going to go over to the golf thread and see how people are playing lately.


ICYM, A world speed golf record was set in the upstate recently by the golf coach at Hamilton College.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> Not really, but I kinda stopped caring about this conversation, so I’m going to go over to the golf thread and see how people are playing lately.


I understand. I know it's difficult for you to see, or understand, any opinion other than yours.


----------



## Harvey

I think the Chinese could shed some more light on what happened. It seems like they knew what was going on, or at least that something was going on, way before we did. 

Still don't think it was done purposefully. If that guy in the video is right - the only thing the Chinese govt cares about is retaining power - no way to they want to create that much turmoil in China or in the US. We are their biggest customers.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I think the Chinese could shed some more light on what happened. It seems like they knew what was going on, or at least that something was going on, way before we did.
> 
> Still don't think it was done purposefully. If that guy in the video is right - the only thing the Chinese govt cares about is retaining power - no way to they want to create that much turmoil in China or in the US. We are their biggest customers.


I too think China knows more than they are letting on.
I don't think it was done purposefully as well. Hopefully that's true.
It's so sad, but yes, we are their biggest customer. Hopefully someday, somehow, we can change that and return to being our own workforce.


----------



## Brownski

The problem is they’re obviously hiding/covering up something and they’re doing so effectively. Covering up a mistake looks the same as covering up a crime and the absence of hard facts leads to speculation and conspiracy theories.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Yes, the other problem as I see it is our government should be doing more to find out the truth. Almost seems as if they want to shrug it off as something got hot too.


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> The problem is they’re *obviously* hiding/covering up something and they’re doing so effectively. .


???? Are they? Are you involved in the conversations that other countries have with them? That their infectious disease experts have with pharmaceutical companies? Is this a fact, or is it just speculation on your part?

Like, I’m no fan of China, but saying things like this is exactly what I was talking about with “casting blame”.

Like, I could say “Brownski is acting very suspicious and obviously covering something up. Maybe his father killed JFK, maybe he didn’t. Who’s to say?”

I didn’t make any accusations, but talking like that is a weird way to put thoughts out there. If you want to say “fuck China, they did it, and I can prove it”, go ahead and try to prove it (if that’s how you want to spend your time), but the baseless accusations are strange.


----------



## raisingarizona

The last few pages have taken on a completely different tone for some reason. It’s like it went from a respectful conversation to a heated argument and I don’t know why.


----------



## Brownski

Yes
The Chinese government is acting like they’re hiding something. I don’t think I offered an opinion as to what


----------



## MC2

(Deleted because I linked to an obvious Military/Industrial Complex propaganda page. Gotta be careful who you trust out there. Dig into every internet link.)


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> It’s weird that you say weird so much. Hugs & kisses


I said it once in the last 3 pages, but okay? Is there a word you want me to use instead? I think “weird” is a pretty good descriptor of behavior that I don’t understand because it seems like people desperately want to have their assumptions verified by others (instead of trying to collect data and use that as the basis for their opinions).

EDIT: See, now you edited your post and it looks like I made up the quote here. But this was your original comment, so hugs and kisses to you too!


----------



## Brownski

Sorry
Somebody got between the posts so I thought it looked weird. When are you gonna post a Big Snow TR? Did I miss it?


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> Sorry
> Somebody got between the posts so I thought it looked weird. When are you gonna post a Big Snow TR? Did I miss it?


I made another video, so maybe Monday (but I have some van work to do so maybe Tuesday).

My main point in this thread is to say you have to be careful who you believe. Did you know that millions of people around the world think the US introduced the disease to China to make it look like the Chinese did it?









						Anatomy of a conspiracy: With COVID, China took leading role
					

BRUSSELS (AP) — The rumors began almost as soon as the disease itself. Claims that a foreign adversary had unleashed a bioweapon emerged at the fringes of Chinese social media the same day China first reported the outbreak of a mysterious virus.




					apnews.com


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I too think China knows more than they are letting on.


Fgetabout Camp. I’m doin ya a favor.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> The last few pages have taken on a completely different tone for some reason. It’s like it went from a respectful conversation to a heated argument and I don’t know why.


The hell you don't know why


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> My main point in this thread is to


Your main point is to start shit with someone who has a different point of view than you do. Then again, I don't think anyone, including myself, is one bit surprised by it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> (instead of trying to collect data and use that as the basis for their opinions).


In another thread this is exactly what TJ was saying. He's saying there's information out there for people to draw their own conclusion. You step in and try to immediately dismiss that by asking him what his education level was, simply because he may have a different opinion than you.
Talk about weird


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Your main point is to start shit….


Three posts in a row bashing me (plus the one that started it this morning) Are you sure you are clear on who is “starting shit”?


----------



## MarzNC

@Harvey : here's another example where it's important to keep the denominator in mind when looking at detected case numbers. At first glance it can seem as if UNC-CH students tested on 8/19 were three times more likely to test positive compared to employees (9 vs 3). But looking at the Campus Testing By Type table that includes the number of tests performed, it's clear that employees have a lower Percent Positive rate. For context, the attested vaccinated rate for students as of late last week was 88%, while 82% of the employees say they are fully vaccinated. Faculty and staff are lumped together under "employees."

One dorm on campus has a detected cluster (5 connected cases). Students in that dorm will be tested twice a week for a while to try to detect asymptomatic cases. Good contact tracing makes a big difference when a subpopulation is cooperative. There is a much higher chance of detecting asymptomatic cases quickly enough to keep them from unknowingly infecting other people.


----------



## wonderpony

My vaccinated coworker's cousin and spouse have tested positive. They are both vaccinated. Their daughter is not positive. This is going to be interesting...


----------



## Campgottagopee

wonderpony said:


> My vaccinated coworker's cousin and spouse have tested positive. They are both vaccinated. Their daughter is not positive. This is going to be interesting...


Following


----------



## x10003q

I guess all the people still doing reasearch can close up their labs as the Food and Drug Administration has formally approved Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine.








						Pfizer-BioNTech's COVID Vaccine Gets Full Approval From The FDA
					

The approval replaces the emergency use authorizations granted last December and could make it easier for employers, the military and universities to mandate vaccination.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Following


I was trying to find the original post so I could remember the back story.


----------



## wonderpony

I have an unvaccinated coworker. This isn't her. This is someone completely vaccinated, whose family members have had breakthroughs.


----------



## sibhusky

wonderpony said:


> I have an unvaccinated coworker. This isn't her. This is someone completely vaccinated, whose family members have had breakthroughs.


Are they sick or they tested positive but feel fine?


----------



## gorgonzola

We have a similar scenario - vaxed son in law felt like crap, tested positive, sick for a day then fine. My daughter was with him until he felt sick, tested negative... go figure


----------



## Brownski

Provided for context only. Things are getting better. It’s not over by any means but look at how the relationship between these statistics has changed. Covid continues and we’re in a tough place right now but it’s killing fewer people at least.


----------



## wonderpony

sibhusky said:


> Are they sick or they tested positive but feel fine?


I have no idea. All they know is that they are positive.


----------



## wonderpony

The total numbers at Cornell for the past week are: 16 faculty and staff and 15 students. All the students need to be vaccinated, or have a medical or religious exemption. The grad students I have been meeting this week have all been tested upon arrival, I think. I could be wrong. 

But, what's up with the numbers of faculty and staff? 99% of faculty, and 91 percent of staff are vaccinated. So, either that means that those 9% of unvaccinated staff are getting hit hard, or there are breakthroughs happening. Enquiring minds want to know.

Regardless, I have a camera at home and could work from home in a heartbeat if I had to. My only fail in this plan is I went back to my usual stock of TP for when I was working AT work. If I have to quarantine, it's not looking so good.


----------



## sibhusky

I saw a headline about TP supplies at Costco and ordered another case of this Scott JRT single ply from Amazon. Each roll lasts two weeks. I may never return to normal TP.


----------



## tirolski

Can’t make chips for cars but we innovated that.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Can’t make chips for cars but we innovated that.


Right?


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Right?


If yer asking it’s:
Super quick home delivery of 1-ply. TP by the Amazonians.
Made big $ with that system, allegedly.


----------



## Warp daddy

sibhusky said:


> I saw a headline about TP supplies at Costco and ordered another case of this Scott JRT single ply from Amazon. Each roll lasts two weeks. I may never return to normal TP.


TP IS the new currency .........Who Knew ! ??


----------



## Warp daddy

sibhusky said:


> I saw a headline about TP supplies at Costco and ordered another case of this Scott JRT single ply from Amazon. Each roll lasts two weeks. I may never return to normal TP.


Omg !!! NO !! DO NOT DO IT !!!

True story : to set the scene : ok so my dad was a very gentile , dignified guy , professorial in nature but my MOM WAS a piece o work ! An artist , an Irish colleen with a wicked sense of humor and a bent on deviltry and very little filter on her descriptive utterances ?.

So i always remebered her little self reflexive ditty about her childhood experience WITH single ply , Which btw she oft repeated whenever the spirit moved her ( she was not a drinker , so one or two was all it took at parties) ?

It goes like this : the scene an IRISH wake .
" Poor Margy Baker
Went to the john at the Undertakers
The PAPER WAS THIN
Her finger went in
Poor Margy Baker "

No single ply has been purchased in our family since that time ??????


----------



## tirolski

Warp daddy said:


> True story : to set the scene : ok so my dad was a very gentile , dignified guy , professorial in nature but my MOM WAS a piece o work ! An artist , an Irish colleen with a wicked sense of humor and a bent on deviltry and very little filter on her descriptive utterances ?.


Maureen O’Hara as Mary Kate Danahar gives Irish women the respect they’ve earned. 
Yer lucky ta have some Irish blood in ya Warp.








						'I have a fearful temper. You might as well know about it now instead of findin' out about...' - The Quiet Man
					

Mary Kate Danaher: I have a fearful temper. You might as well know about it now instead of findin' out about it later. We Danahers are a fightin' people.  Thornton: I can think of a lot of things I'd rather do to one of the Danahers - Miss Danaher.  Mary Kate Danaher: Shhh, Mr. Thornton! What...




					clip.cafe


----------



## Warp daddy

tirolski said:


> Maureen O’Hara as Mary Kate Danahar gives Irish women the respect they’ve earned.
> Yer lucky ta have some Irish blood in ya Warp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'I have a fearful temper. You might as well know about it now instead of findin' out about...' - The Quiet Man
> 
> 
> Mary Kate Danaher: I have a fearful temper. You might as well know about it now instead of findin' out about it later. We Danahers are a fightin' people.  Thornton: I can think of a lot of things I'd rather do to one of the Danahers - Miss Danaher.  Mary Kate Danaher: Shhh, Mr. Thornton! What...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clip.cafe


Sure n begoorah, Ole Margaret Mary would give her a run for the money?⚡


----------



## sibhusky

Warp daddy said:


> Omg !!! NO !! DO NOT DO IT !!!
> 
> True story : to set the scene : ok so my dad was a very gentile , dignified guy , professorial in nature but my MOM WAS a piece o work ! An artist , an Irish colleen with a wicked sense of humor and a bent on deviltry and very little filter on her descriptive utterances ?.
> 
> So i always remebered her little self reflexive ditty about her childhood experience WITH single ply , Which btw she oft repeated whenever the spirit moved her ( she was not a drinker , so one or two was all it took at parties) ?
> 
> It goes like this : the scene an IRISH wake .
> " Poor Margy Baker
> Went to the john at the Undertakers
> The PAPER WAS THIN
> Her finger went in
> Poor Margy Baker "
> 
> No single ply has been purchased in our family since that time ??????


I have a septic system. I'm not into surprise back ups. I've had them at 3:30 AM and even worse as I walked out the door to go skiing. We tried the 2 ply for a few months. It didn't dissolve last enough.


----------



## Warp daddy

sibhusky said:


> I have a septic system. I'm not into surprise back ups. I've had them at 3:30 AM and even worse as I walked out the door to go skiing. We tried the 2 ply for a few months. It didn't dissolve last enough.


?As a kid we had septics ugh no thanks especially in hard pan clay subsoil.

We are on sewer system but im thinkin' a Bidet next bathroom remodel ?


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> I guess all the people still doing reasearch can close up their labs as the Food and Drug Administration has formally approved Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pfizer-BioNTech's COVID Vaccine Gets Full Approval From The FDA
> 
> 
> The approval replaces the emergency use authorizations granted last December and could make it easier for employers, the military and universities to mandate vaccination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


?? Pfizer's vaccine may be considered the "gold standard" by some people but it's probably the most expensive and complicated to deal with from an operational basis. The "cold chain" required for shipment and storage is not typical.

While the mRNA approach has advantages, the other approaches to developing a vaccine have other advantages. Being cheap to produce and store would make a huge difference for most of the countries of the world.

What will be interesting to see is if Pfizer starts spending money on commercials now that the BLA is approved.


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> The total numbers at Cornell for the past week are: 16 faculty and staff and 15 students. All the students need to be vaccinated, or have a medical or religious exemption. The grad students I have been meeting this week have all been tested upon arrival, I think. I could be wrong.
> 
> But, what's up with the numbers of faculty and staff? 99% of faculty, and 91 percent of staff are vaccinated. So, either that means that those 9% of unvaccinated staff are getting hit hard, or there are breakthroughs happening. Enquiring minds want to know.
> 
> Regardless, I have a camera at home and could work from home in a heartbeat if I had to. My only fail in this plan is I went back to my usual stock of TP for when I was working AT work. If I have to quarantine, it's not looking so good.


Could well be some breakthrough cases for the faculty/staff. I would guess that folks around Cornell are more likely to get tested if they have any symptoms or find out they may have had close contact to someone who tested positive. While there are masking rules on campus, people are clearly not masking consistently away from workplaces.

Community spread is often happening because of situations where people think a social setting that's not a public space is a safe place. A super spreader event that was the start of Delta spreading in Australia was a birthday party attended by 40+ people, with only 6 fully vaccinated because they worked in healthcare. Contact tracing was thorough so the linkages were well documented. Total number of people who had to self-quarantine was in the hundreds after just a few days.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> What will be interesting to see is if Pfizer starts spending money on commercials now that the BLA is approved.


Can ya say Comirnaty?
Folks make big $ thinkin of those weird names.
If they got to make a new mRNA vax for a new mutant strain, they’ll have to come up with another new name for it.
Jab job security.
This has yet to be peer reviewed but...








The SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant is poised to acquire complete resistance to wild-type spike vaccines


mRNA-based vaccines provide effective protection against most common SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, identifying likely breakthrough variants is critical for future vaccine development. Here, we found that the Delta variant completely escaped from anti-N-terminal domain (NTD) neutralizing...




www.biorxiv.org


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Can ya say Comirnaty?
> Folks make big $ thinkin of those weird names.
> If they got to make a new mRNA vax for a new mutant strain, they’ll have to come up with another new name for it.
> Jab job security.


Beats BNT162b2. That's what is used in Europe more than "Pfizer" or "Pfizer-BioNTech" on official websites.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> Can ya say Comirnaty?


My grandfather's name was Padraigh Comirnaty. Maybe I'll hit them up for royalties.



tirolski said:


> This has yet to be peer reviewed but...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant is poised to acquire complete resistance to wild-type spike vaccines
> 
> 
> mRNA-based vaccines provide effective protection against most common SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, identifying likely breakthrough variants is critical for future vaccine development. Here, we found that the Delta variant completely escaped from anti-N-terminal domain (NTD) neutralizing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.biorxiv.org


Can anyone explain the abstract in English?

mm


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> My grandfather's name was Padraigh Comirnaty. Maybe I'll hit them up for royalties.


Did he copyright it?
If not, could be thought of bein in the public domain.
Ya could still try for *Name* Image and Likeness cash as the other athletes are gettin some now.
Pfizer should have lots. 
Sounds to be Irish. 
If ya get even a small percent yer buyin first round at the pub.


----------



## MarzNC

Milo Maltbie said:


> My grandfather's name was Padraigh Comirnaty. Maybe I'll hit them up for royalties.


Hmm, the folks who wrote these articles didn't look to see if "Comirnaty" existed before 2020. But then I thought "Marz" didn't exist as a name when I made it up either. I did that for something else long before I started using it for ski forums.

Comirnaty has been in use in Europe for a while because Pfizer got full approval in late 2020. The generic name is "tozinameran." The Dec article explains how that came to be.

August 23, 2021
The Most Famous Drug in the United States Is Named … Comirnaty?


https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/comirnaty-pfizer-vaccine.html



August 24, 2021








It's Pronounced Koe-mir'-na-tee. How The Pfizer-BioNTech Vaccine's Name Came To Be


Pfizer and BioNTech's COVID-19 vaccine has been given full approval by the Food and Drug Administration. Along with that approval process is the companies' new brand name for the vaccine: Comirnaty.




www.npr.org





Dec. 23, 2020








The inside story behind Pfizer and BioNTech's new vaccine brand name, Comirnaty


Comirnaty. It’s a name we’ll all know soon. | Comirnaty. It’s a name we’ll all know soon. The new brand for Pfizer and BioNTech's COVID-19 vaccine, Comirnaty mashes up community, immunity, mRNA and COVID—pretty much everything that could fit into the moniker for the world's most high-profile...




www.fiercepharma.com


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Can anyone explain the abstract in English?
> 
> mm


Japanese scientists did some lab work, made some observations and guesses. 
Some of em have filed patent application on something. 
It’s a preprint but it’s got some folks concerned and others not.
Time will tell.
Ya can tweeterize it to view it’s discussion if ya want. 
Tweeterize isn't English, yet.


----------



## wonderpony

MarzNC said:


> Could well be some breakthrough cases for the faculty/staff. I would guess that folks around Cornell are more likely to get tested if they have any symptoms or find out they may have had close contact to someone who tested positive. While there are masking rules on campus, people are clearly not masking consistently away from workplaces.
> 
> Community spread is often happening because of situations where people think a social setting that's not a public space is a safe place. A super spreader event that was the start of Delta spreading in Australia was a birthday party attended by 40+ people, with only 6 fully vaccinated because they worked in healthcare. Contact tracing was thorough so the linkages were well documented. Total number of people who had to self-quarantine was in the hundreds after just a few days.


These numbers are coming from the surveillance testing sites, not testing for cause.


----------



## wonderpony

Meanwhile, I just learned that my son has had his first Moderna. I am thrilled. He has been on job sites throughout the pandemic, had covid and has resisted getting the vaccine. Apparently, it takes a prospective gf to convince him. Whatever.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Comirnaty has been in use in Europe for a while because Pfizer got full approval in late 2020.


It was BioNTech Manufacturing GmbH who is the European Marketing Authorisation (EMA) Holder for Comirnaty in Europe, obtained in late 2020.
Not Pfizer.
Pfizer helped em but isn’t the “Holder”.
See page 31.


https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/product-information/comirnaty-epar-product-information_en.pdf



See also FDA's press release yesterday. 
The sentence just above "related information”. 
"The approval was granted to BioNTech Manufacturing GmbH."








FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine


FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine, now marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.




www.fda.gov


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> These numbers are coming from the surveillance testing sites, not testing for cause.


Routine testing on college campuses are going to be very useful in the next few months. Only going to be required for unvaccinated folks, although it would actually be a good idea to be sampling vaccinated people too get try to detect asymptomatic breakthrough cases.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> See also FDA's press release yesterday.
> The sentence just above "related information”.
> "The approval was granted to BioNTech Manufacturing GmbH."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine, now marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fda.gov


It's a bit funny to see that the way to pronounce Comirnaty in the press release.

_"Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty (koe-mir’-na-tee), for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older. The vaccine also continues to be available under emergency use authorization (EUA), including for individuals 12 through 15 years of age and for the administration of a third dose in certain immunocompromised individuals.
. . ."_

I wonder how many parents of young teens who are vaccine hesitant will figure out that the full approval doesn't include ages 12-15 yet. I would think it won't take long to get full approval for them too. Perhaps waiting for a bit more time to collect safety data given that the younger age group wasn't enrolled until a few months after the start of the 16+ Phase 3 clinical trial.


----------



## Ripitz




----------



## CNY Skier

tirolski said:


> Can ya say Comirnaty?
> Folks make big $ thinkin of those weird names.
> If they got to make a new mRNA vax for a new mutant strain, they’ll have to come up with another new name for it.
> Jab job security.
> This has yet to be peer reviewed but...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant is poised to acquire complete resistance to wild-type spike vaccines
> 
> 
> mRNA-based vaccines provide effective protection against most common SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, identifying likely breakthrough variants is critical for future vaccine development. Here, we found that the Delta variant completely escaped from anti-N-terminal domain (NTD) neutralizing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.biorxiv.org


Interesting. I'm seeing more and more articles where journalists/doctors/etc are starting to hedge their bet on the so-called vaccines. (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...p-up-with-virus-creating-worry-for-vaccinated for example) There's always people who see things early in the game - they are often called kooks and ridiculed. At some point the evidence hits a tipping point and then a fight ensues as to who can get out in front of the news first. Not sure if we are there quite yet but we seem to be getting close.


----------



## Tjf1967

CNY Skier said:


> Interesting. I'm seeing more and more articles where journalists/doctors/etc are starting to hedge their bet on the so-called vaccines. (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...p-up-with-virus-creating-worry-for-vaccinated for example) There's always people who see things early in the game - they are often called kooks and ridiculed. At some point the evidence hits a tipping point and then a fight ensues as to who can get out in front of the news first. Not sure if we are there quite yet but we seem to be getting close.


I'm vaccinated and I'm not confused. I forget the exact wording in the second paragraph it states the vaccine in having powerful positive effect. So there's that. It's approved to be safe. That's good too. You ready my friend to help the rest of us?


----------



## Brownski

I’m the first guy to say that everybody‘s entitled to their own POV and that we should never get locked in to one way of looking at things, that we should always be on the lookout for confirmation bias and group think but that article actually says in it:

“All that said, some facts are well established at this point. Vaccinated people infected with the virus are much less likely to need to go to the hospital, much less likely to need intubation and much less likely to die from the illness. There’s no doubt that vaccines provide significant protection.”

Did you not read the whole thing or what?


----------



## wonderpony

Quite honestly, I haven't read the last few posts. Things have been a bit chaotic with the start of the semester. But... Driving home tonight, I was thinking about the long term way out of this pandemic. It seems to me that until young children are approved for the vaccine and get the vaccine and whatever boosters are required, the pandemic is sticking around. Kind of like the other vaccines kids get. I am 56. It would be nice if this were over before I retire.


----------



## Harvey

CNY Skier said:


> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...p-up-with-virus-creating-worry-for-vaccinated



The worry is essentially created by the unvaccinated. The Delta variant is a result of a huge population of unvaccinated in India.

Without higher vaccination rates, IMO it's logical to expect more variants that will be less responsive to current vaccine. Come to think of it, the unvaccinated are the ticket to ride for big pharma. As long as 20-30 percent resist, Pharma will be printing money.

Imagine having a product where most of the world wants it, and the government believes it is essential, so the end user doesn't have to actually pay for it. And to keep the whole thing cooking forever all you need is a certain percentage of skeptics.


----------



## Harvey

Couldn't find the original post about insurance, but it's happening at Delta.









Delta Air Lines is raising health insurance premiums for unvaccinated employees by $200 a month to cover higher Covid costs


Delta is the latest company to issue new rules for employee vaccinations, but stopped short of an outright mandate.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## MarzNC

Workers Fired for Being Unvaccinated May Not Be Able to Collect Unemployment Benefits


As people continue to return to the office amidst the surging Delta variant, more employers are requiring employees to get the COVID-19 vaccination or risk losing their jobs. However, if you are fired...




www.yahoo.com


----------



## MarzNC

More colleges are requiring the COVID-19 vaccine. Some are starting to kick out unvaccinated students.
					

Students who don't get vaccinated against COVID-19 risk paying thousands for coronavirus testing, loss of WiFi on campus and even disenrollment.



					www.usatoday.com
				




Here are other vaccines typically required for college students.


----------



## sibhusky

CNY Skier said:


> Interesting. I'm seeing more and more articles where journalists/doctors/etc are starting to hedge their bet on the so-called vaccines. (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...p-up-with-virus-creating-worry-for-vaccinated for example) There's always people who see things early in the game - they are often called kooks and ridiculed. At some point the evidence hits a tipping point and then a fight ensues as to who can get out in front of the news first. Not sure if we are there quite yet but we seem to be getting close.


Here's the "meat" of the article aside from stories of people being nervous:

"All that said, some facts are well established at this point. *Vaccinated people infected with the virus are much less likely to need to go to the hospital, much less likely to need intubation and much less likely to die from the illness. *There’s no doubt that vaccines provide significant protection. But a large proportion of the nation -- almost 30% of U.S. adults -- have not been vaccinated, a fact that has conspired with the highly contagious delta variant to push the country into a new wave of outbreaks.

“The big picture here is that the vaccines are working and *the reason for the spike in the U.S. is we have too little vaccine uptake*,” Frieden said.
--
Instead, we've got an INCREDIBLE WASTE OF HUMAN LIFE going on because people are inventing excuses not to get a shot.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/25/us/florida-covid-deaths.html


----------



## Campgottagopee

sibhusky said:


> --
> Instead, we've got an INCREDIBLE WASTE OF HUMAN LIFE going on because people are inventing excuses not to get a shot.


A couple of my buddies that weren't vaxed, and against it, are now. With the FDA approval and some begging they changed their minds. Hopefully this is the new trend.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> It's a bit funny to see that the way to pronounce Comirnaty in the press release.
> 
> Perhaps waiting for a bit more time to collect safety data given that the younger age group wasn't enrolled until a few months after the start of the 16+ Phase 3 clinical trial.


Some folks have questions relating to the most recent FDA’s press release data.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> The worry is essentially created by the unvaccinated. The Delta variant is a result of a huge population of unvaccinated in India.


True, not many folks in the world were vaccinated when the delta variant was first observed.








						Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations
					

Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. Population estimates for per-capita metrics are based on the United Nations World Population Prospects. Income groups are based on the World Bank classification. A full list of our...




					ourworldindata.org
				




Do you believe the virus doesn’t mutate in folks vaccinated and are SARS-CoV-2 infected?


----------



## Brownski

The idea is that vaxed folks spread it less. When spread slows down, mutations slow down. I think the current booster is just another dose of the original but I’m sure there are folks working on tweaking it to address Delta, Lambda and other new strains. Maybe a new version will be approved by the time I’m ready for my booster.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> The idea is that vaxed folks spread it less.


Yup, that’s an idea for folks.


----------



## x10003q

CNY Skier said:


> Interesting. I'm seeing more and more articles where journalists/doctors/etc are starting to hedge their bet on the so-called vaccines. (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...p-up-with-virus-creating-worry-for-vaccinated for example) There's always people who see things early in the game - they are often called kooks and ridiculed. At some point the evidence hits a tipping point and then a fight ensues as to who can get out in front of the news first. Not sure if we are there quite yet but we seem to be getting close.


No matter what you call it - it is an approved vaccine. You seem to still have issues with your reading. It seems you skipped the relevant statement mentioned by others above. Here it is:
*"All that said, some facts are well established at this point. Vaccinated people infected with the virus are much less likely to need to go to the hospital, much less likely to need intubation and much less likely to die from the illness."*
Now, in case you had an issue reading this statement, read the next one:
*"All that said, some facts are well established at this point. Vaccinated people infected with the virus are much less likely to need to go to the hospital, much less likely to need intubation and much less likely to die from the illness."*

Maybe the 4th time is the charm.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> The idea is that vaxed folks spread it less. When spread slows down, mutations slow down. I think the current booster is just another dose of the original but I’m sure there are folks working on tweaking it to address Delta, Lambda and other new strains. Maybe a new version will be approved by the time I’m ready for my booster.


Pretty sure that no new version of any vaccine has been submitted for FDA review yet. Pfizer seems more intent on coming out with a new version and pushing booster shots.

I have a feeling that Moderna is having to scramble more than Pfizer in order to pull together all the documentation required to complete the BLA submission. Pfizer has far more experience with the regulatory process than Moderna. Probably has more staff that could be pulled onto the project.

July 8, 2021








						Pfizer says it is developing a Covid booster shot to target the highly transmissible delta variant
					

Clinical studies could begin as early as August, subject to regulatory approvals, Pfizer says.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> A couple of my buddies that weren't vaxed, and against it, are now. With the FDA approval and some begging they changed their minds. Hopefully this is the new trend.


This tracks with national data. Vaccinations are up, particularly 1st shots:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/24/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> I have a feeling that Moderna is having to scramble more than Pfizer in order to pull together all the documentation required to complete the BLA submission. Pfizer has far more experience with the regulatory process than Moderna. Probably has more staff that could be pulled onto the project.


Pfizer got huge by merging and buying other companies as many do.
And have much more experience what it takes for an FDA and EMA approval(s) than the much smaller Germany’s BioNTech.
But BioNTech is the “Holder" of the recent approval(s) of Comirnaty both here and in Europe for some reason(s).
Go figure, I can’t. 
Folks in the US of A have been offshoring Pharma stuff for years.


----------



## Brownski

tirolski said:


> Pfizer got huge by merging and buying other companies as many do.


They had to do something with all the boner pill money- might as well buy the competition I guess.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> They had to do something with all the boner pill money- might as well buy the competition I guess.


When I was in Italy and went up to Tirol one Sunday to look for the place where the grand folks were from I stoped in the village at the hotel next to the closed information center.
The only one who spoke English of the owners was the son.
He told me he bought Pfizer stock cause of the little blue pill.
We did discuss other topics. 
They served great gelato.
Want to go back.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Pfizer got huge by merging and buying other companies as many do.
> And have much more experience what it takes for an FDA and EMA approval(s) than the much smaller Germany’s BioNTech.
> But BioNTech is the “Holder" of the recent approval(s) of Comirnaty both here and in Europe for some reason(s).
> Go figure, I can’t.
> Folks in the US of A have been offshoring Pharma stuff for years.


Probably made regulatory approval a bit easier in Europe because BioNTech was the filing company. Got it in Dec 2020.

As noted, Pfizer has been around and multi-national for a long time. Founded in 1849 by a couple of immigrants from Germany. Has probably always had an international outlook. The company I worked for does contract work for pharma/biotech companies and was founded by a professor who came from the UK. That made his interest in having connections and offices outside the U.S. very strong even when there were only a few dozen employees. When I joined there were about 40 people in NC and 1 in London. Seemed to work considering it grew to 17,000 employees worldwide in about 10 years.

The FDA requires efficacy trials done in the U.S. while European regulatory agencies probably want trials done in European countries. A U.S. patent only lasts 17 years, that the start date isn't when FDA approval is given. The sooner there is regulatory approval somewhere in the world, the sooner a company starts bringing in revenue after years of research.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> The sooner there is regulatory approval somewhere in the world, the sooner a company starts bringing in revenue after years of research.


Yup. But why do the approval(s) go BioNTech?


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Yup. But why do the approval(s) go BioNTech?


Just guessing, but since BioNTech is focused on the mRNA approach, could be that the thinking was that they would get along better with the European regulators (EMA). Like Moderna, BioNTech had more reason to make the COVID-19 vaccine development a top priority for pretty much everyone in the company. Presumably Pfizer had to keep other drug development going at the same time that work for the pandemic vaccine was proceeding.

I've paid more attention to news about Moderna partially because it's simpler to follow one company instead of an international partnership. Wading through the Pfizer website is not worth the effort.









						BioNTech - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




December 4, 2021








						Here are 5 things to know about BioNTech and the married couple behind the COVID-19 vaccine developed with Pfizer
					

Co-founded by Turkish-German scientists Uğur Şahin and his wife Özlem Türeci, BioNTech is now worth $25 billion.




					www.marketwatch.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Wading through the Pfizer website is not worth the effort.


Here’s their agreement.
It’s in legalese. 
Pfizer owns a licensing agreement.
BioNTech knows the mRNA technology and it’s manufacture better.
Pfizer knows how to make drug product, has distribution and marketing network(s) and deeper pockets,


https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1776985/000119312520195911/d939702dex1045.htm


----------



## wonderpony

Cornell has moved to yellow alert.. Move in was last week. 98% of undergrads are vaccinated. Sigh.


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> Cornell has moved to yellow alert.. Move in was last week. 98% of undergrads are vaccinated. Are these breakthrough cases, or the remaining unvaccinated 2%? Enquiring minds still want to know.


Given that everyone is being tested regardless of whether or not they have any symptoms, sounds like there are breakthrough cases among the students. For Aug. 20-26, the total number of positive test was 60 and most were students. Percent Positive was 0.33% since most tests were required as part of the surveillance approach and not based on someone having symptoms or thinking there was close contact.

The infections that started after students moved in were probably from social activities, not work or classes. Presumably some infections started before students made it to Ithaca and were undetected. When did classes start?

I noted the extra comment about "Greek houses" as part of the recommendation that students living off-campus mask indoors.

Cornell announcement, August 27, 2021
_" . . .
While the number of cases is concerning, we want to emphasize that our system is working. Virtually all of our students are fully vaccinated; as such, it is the case that those who are infected will almost all be vaccinated. And as has been seen across the country, the vaccine is proving effective in preventing severe illness — the vast majority of our identified cases are asymptomatic or experiencing only mild symptoms and would likely not have been identified were it not for our extensive testing program. Importantly, the knowledge gained from our testing program also provides us with information as to where infections are occurring; to date, these are overwhelmingly associated with informal social events and activities and are not linked to organized university events.
. . ."_


----------



## wonderpony

It' s only the students who are being tested regularly at the moment. I am not sure if that includes grad students. Of course, I could read for comprehension. 

I kind of wonder if the email is a warning to the students to start behaving or go back to zoomland. And, the statement that there were no transmissions in the classroom is misleading, IMO. I have a grad student who was exposed while being a TA. Thankfully, the distancing and masking last year kept her safe.


----------



## CNY Skier

Brownski said:


> I’m the first guy to say that everybody‘s entitled to their own POV and that we should never get locked in to one way of looking at things, that we should always be on the lookout for confirmation bias and group think but that article actually says in it:
> 
> “All that said, some facts are well established at this point. Vaccinated people infected with the virus are much less likely to need to go to the hospital, much less likely to need intubation and much less likely to die from the illness. There’s no doubt that vaccines provide significant protection.”
> 
> Did you not read the whole thing or what?


(Respectively, to all - Of course I read it!)
My point is that the media is following a predictable pattern here...where there's smoke there's fire. Two months ago you would have never seen an article like this in major media. In a few weeks there will be another headline that will yield ground on the "covid shots are great" narrative.

“All that said, some facts are well established at this point. Vaccinated people infected with the virus are much less likely to need to go to the hospital, much less likely to need intubation and much less likely to die from the illness. There’s no doubt that vaccines provide significant protection.”

Unless you live in Israel..."What is clear is that “breakthrough” cases are not the rare events the term implies. As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older. “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,” says Uri Shalit, a bioinformatician at the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion) who has consulted on COVID-19 for the government." https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta

Israel has incredible transparency concerning covid data. I'm having trouble finding that level of transparency in the US data.

Could it be that these vaccines just aren't that effective? From what I can tell they do little or nothing to stop the virus from spreading. I don't recall a vaccine in my lifetime (55+) that required a booster within the first year or being on the market. There's a reason that the flu shot is call a "shot"...does not imply that it is a vaccine in any manner. These covid shots seem to be falling into the same category. Unfortunately, the long term effects (if any) of these shots is yet to be known.


----------



## Tjf1967

CNY Skier said:


> (Respectively, to all - Of course I read it!)
> My point is that the media is following a predictable pattern here...where there's smoke there's fire. Two months ago you would have never seen an article like this in major media. In a few weeks there will be another headline that will yield ground on the "covid shots are great" narrative.
> 
> “All that said, some facts are well established at this point. Vaccinated people infected with the virus are much less likely to need to go to the hospital, much less likely to need intubation and much less likely to die from the illness. There’s no doubt that vaccines provide significant protection.”
> 
> Unless you live in Israel..."What is clear is that “breakthrough” cases are not the rare events the term implies. As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older. “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,” says Uri Shalit, a bioinformatician at the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion) who has consulted on COVID-19 for the government." https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta
> 
> Israel has incredible transparency concerning covid data. I'm having trouble finding that level of transparency in the US data.
> 
> Could it be that these vaccines just aren't that effective? From what I can tell they do little or nothing to stop the virus from spreading. I don't recall a vaccine in my lifetime (55+) that required a booster within the first year or being on the market. There's a reason that the flu shot is call a "shot"...does not imply that it is a vaccine in any manner. These covid shots seem to be falling into the same category. Unfortunately, the long term effects (if any) of these shots is yet to be known.


514 out of 9 million. Is miniscule. The large percentage you present are very deceptive. Here is the deal. I can tolerate people who refuse to get the shots. I hope it's not too much to ask that people who won't get the shot social distance and wear. a mask when in crowds. Fair?


----------



## Harvey

Does anyone dispute that:

Vaccines that were developed for alpha are less effective on Delta?
Delta is dominant because the vaccination for Alpha is far from complete?

No doubt its a game of whack-a-mole. And the chances of success against Delta and other variants go down if vaccine is in short supply or people won't get vaxxed. Time to start over, create a Delta vax and try to get it into 90%.

I'm with TJ. If you are antivax wear a mask.


----------



## Brownski

I believe this is what Marz was refering to before when she was talking about denominators. When close to everybody is vaccinated a larger percentage of the cases will naturally be “breakthroughs”.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Does anyone dispute that:
> 
> Vaccines that were developed for alpha are less effective on Delta?
> Delta is dominant because the vaccination for Alpha is far from complete?
> 
> No doubt its a game of whack-a-mole. And the chances of success against Delta and other variants go down if vaccine is in short supply or people won't get vaxxed. Time to start over, create a Delta vax and try to get it into 90%.
> 
> I'm with TJ. If you are antivax wear a mask.


The clinical trials done in 2020 happened in multiple countries. In some trials Alpha wasn't even around that much. In others, the original strain and then Alpha were out in the general population during the study period. The vaccines developed in the first half of 2020 for Phase 1/2 trials were designed to induce an immune reaction to the original strain, not Alpha.

Delta has become dominant because it's far more transmissible than Alpha or any other variant. Has little to do with vaccination rollout, which has varied a great deal not only in the U.S. but all around the world.

Did I post the CDC webpage about variants in this thread? Here's how the chart looked a week ago. VOI=Variant of Interest, VOC=Variant of Concern. There have been a few news reports about Lambda, which came from S. America. Lambda is a VOI, not a VOC.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> No doubt its a game of whack-a-mole. And the chances of success against Delta and other variants go down if vaccine is in short supply or people won't get vaxxed. Time to start over, create a Delta vax and try to get it into 90%.


Don't think there is any reason to abandon the existing vaccine based on what I'm hearing from friends who know a lot more about the human immune system than I want to know. After high school biology I was done with that sort of science class. Many of the news reports and even some of the research articles are focused on a particular kind of antibody. I gather there are a lot more elements to a robust immune reaction to a particular virus like SARS-CoV-2.

To get a sense of why T-cells are important when considering variants, can start with these links.





__





T-cells | Ask A Biologist


back to comicT-Cells[caption align="right"][/caption]T-cells are a type of white blood cell that work with macrophages. Unlike macrophages that can attack any invading cell or virus, each T-cell can fight only one type of virus. You might think this means macrophages are stronger than T-cells...




askabiologist.asu.edu





February 12, 2021








How ‘killer’ T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants


In the race against emerging coronavirus variants, researchers are looking beyond antibodies for clues to lasting protection from COVID-19.




www.nature.com





July 1, 2021, Science
Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines prime T cells to fight SARS-CoV-2 variants, study finds
_Researchers highlight the importance of T cell cross reactivity in stopping severe COVID-19 cases_








Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines prime T cells to fight SARS-CoV-2 variants, study finds: Researchers highlight the importance of T cell cross reactivity in stopping severe COVID-19 cases


Researchers have found that T cells from people who have recovered from COVID-19 or received the Moderna or Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines are still able to recognize several concerning SARS-CoV-2 variants.



www.sciencedaily.com


----------



## wonderpony

Horses who travel off the farm get vaccinated every six months for flu/rhino (respiratory diseases). Maybe it's not such a stretch that humans will need to be vaccinated every six months for a respiratory disease, unless you don't go anywhere.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tjf1967 said:


> I hope it's not too much to ask that people who won't get the shot social distance and wear. a mask when in crowds. Fair?


No.

If you aren't vaccinated, don't go to crowded indoor spaces, don't serve in the military, don't work in a hospital and, most of all, don't send your kid to school with my granddaughter. 

I don't even understand why that's controversial. I threw a student out of my classroom for not being vaxxed for hepatitus 25 years ago, and I was happy to do it.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

CNY Skier said:


> I don't recall a vaccine in my lifetime (55+) that required a booster within the first year or being on the market... Unfortunately, the long term effects (if any) of these shots is yet to be known.


WTF? You're 55 and you're worried about the long term? I can tell you the long term. You're in the third quarter. If you get vaccinated, your health is gonna suck compared to what it was when you were in your 30s. If you don't get vaxxed, it's still gonna suck and maybe you end up in the ICU on a ventilator.

And why put vaccine in quotes? Is that some kind of extreme vaccine denialism by denying that vaccines are in fact vaccines? Does that make you think you are smarter than the average ignorant anti-vaxxer? Changing what you name something doesn't change its effectiveness, which so far these vaccines have proven to be the best thing we have.

mm


----------



## sibhusky

The shingles shot requires two doses weeks apart.

The pneumonia shot I got required two doses a year apart. 

Many of my kid's childhood vaccines were multiple doses as well.

If I think back in time many other vaccines required two doses as well, but these I remember because I've gotten them recently. 

I'm actually hard put to think of single dose vaccines. Heck my dog gets things annually.

Flu shots are vaccines. Why would you even think otherwise?


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> When close to everybody is vaccinated a larger percentage of the cases will naturally be “breakthroughs”.


There’s nothing natural about the new mRNA vaccines, just sayin. Other than humans coming up with the tech and controlling the robots manufacturing them for mass production.


----------



## Tjf1967

tirolski said:


> There’s nothing natural about the new mRNA vaccines, just sayin. Other than humans coming up with the tech and controlling the robots manufacturing them for mass production.





Milo Maltbie said:


> No.
> 
> If you aren't vaccinated, don't go to crowded indoor spaces, don't serve in the military, don't work in a hospital and, most of all, don't send your kid to school with my granddaughter.
> 
> I don't even understand why that's controversial. I threw a student out of my classroom for not being vaxxed for hepatitus 25 years ago, and I was happy to do it.
> 
> mm


Does mm stand for me me. Everything is always about you.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> The clinical trials done in 2020 happened in multiple countries. In some trials Alpha wasn't even around that much. In others, the original strain and then Alpha were out in the general population during the study period. The vaccines developed in the first half of 2020 for Phase 1/2 trials were designed to induce an immune reaction to the original strain, not Alpha.
> 
> Delta has become dominant because it's far more transmissible than Alpha or any other variant. Has little to do with vaccination rollout, which has varied a great deal not only in the U.S. but all around the world.
> 
> Did I post the CDC webpage about variants in this thread? Here's how the chart looked a week ago. VOI=Variant of Interest, VOC=Variant of Concern. There have been a few news reports about Lambda, which came from S. America. Lambda is a VOI, not a VOC.
> 
> View attachment 10248



What is PI%?

I'm not abandoning the vax just assuming that at some point, like the flu vax, there will be a new version, modified to account for Delta or other variants. True or false?

I got sucked down the ivermectin rabbit hole last night on Facebook, wow.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> What is PI%?





MarzNC said:


> Did I post the CDC webpage about variants in this thread? Here's how the chart looked a week ago. VOI=Variant of Interest, VOC=Variant of Concern. There have been a few news reports about Lambda, which came from S. America. Lambda is a VOI, not a VOC.


Good question. It's Prediction Interval. Something that data scientists use that is a bit broader than a Confidence Interval. The percentages for the variants is based on samples of COVID-19 tests that are mostly "convenience samples" so a true confidence interval can't be estimated. Bottom line is that the evidence is pretty clear that Delta became the dominant variant in the U.S. by early July, if not a little sooner in some places with a lot of community spread.





__





Prediction Interval, the wider sister of Confidence Interval | DataScience+







datascienceplus.com


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I'm not abandoning the vax just assuming that at some point, like the flu vax, there will be a new version, modified to account for Delta or other variants. True or false?


Yes, it's true there will be modified vaccines for COVID-19 at some point.

There are Phase 1/2 studies in progress for a new version of Pfizer and Moderna that were adjusted to deal with known variants. Using the mRNA approach means that modifying a vaccine is a much faster process. Of course, the clinical trials process once a vaccine candidate is ready for careful testing in humans will take just as long as necessary based on approved statistical analysis plans for safety and efficacy.

I saw a video by a UK physician yesterday where he complained that reports about the approval of Pfizer didn't change for efficacy for months. He obviously has no idea that efficacy results must be calculated based on a pre-designed and approved statistical analysis plan. You can't just run a stat analysis any time you want. The underlying assumptions get violated and then the statistical results become invalid. Safety data gets updated as followup continues for clinical trial subjects, as well as information for vaccinated people after release to the public. It was quite clear he has no clue what biostaticians due who work for a regulatory agency that approves medications. The stories my grad school classmates had to tell about working with physicians in the Consulting Lab were pretty funny . . . to a statistician.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I got sucked down the ivermectin rabbit hole last night on Facebook, wow.


For what it's worth, there are different versions of ivermectin. Some dosages are designed for horses or dogs. Needless to saw, a horse needs a LOT more of any medication that is also used for a human. A horse weighs 900-2000 lbs.

Medication dosage is usually based more on weight than any other factor. That's why clinical studies for children are usually done well after the dosage for adults has been around for a while. Also why the ongoing studies for COVID-19 vaccines in younger children are broken down into multiple age groups, not just 0-11. I don't have a medical background, but being petite I took the child dose for over-the-counter medications for years after I was considered an adult. For the rare times I needed aspirin, I used children's aspirin because it was easier to adjust the dose down. Pill cutters were that common 20-30 years ago.

Here's a what a Ski Diva who is a physician had to say in response to a mutual FB Friend who was making fun of people using ivermectin. My immunologist ski buddy pays attention to Facebook.

Posted on Facebook in late August 2021 by a physician who is over 65
_"Ivermectin has a boatload of science behind it for numerous human medical conditions, and it's gaining data in treatment of COVID. Just like lisinopril was developed for treatment of high blood pressure, now it's used to reverse cardiomyopathy, keep diabetics off dialysis, and even shows potential for a COVID treatment. Can't write ivermection off just yet. The main problem with it is it's a dirt cheap generic that Big Pharma can't control, so less research will be done on it."_


----------



## Sbob

MarzNC said:


> For what it's worth, there are different versions of ivermectin. Some dosages are designed for horses or dogs. Needless to saw, a horse needs a LOT more of any medication that is also used for a human. A horse weighs 900-2000 lbs.
> 
> Medication dosage is usually based more on weight than any other factor. That's why clinical studies for children are usually done well after the dosage for adults has been around for a while. Also why the ongoing studies for COVID-19 vaccines in younger children are broken down into multiple age groups, not just 0-11. I don't have a medical background, but being petite I took the child dose for over-the-counter medications for years after I was considered an adult. For the rare times I needed aspirin, I used children's aspirin because it was easier to adjust the dose down. Pill cutters were that common 20-30 years ago.
> 
> Here's a what a Ski Diva who is a physician had to say in response to a mutual FB Friend who was making fun of people using ivermectin. My immunologist ski buddy pays attention to Facebook.
> 
> Posted on Facebook in late August 2021 by a physician who is over 65
> _"Ivermectin has a boatload of science behind it for numerous human medical conditions, and it's gaining data in treatment of COVID. Just like lisinopril was developed for treatment of high blood pressure, now it's used to reverse cardiomyopathy, keep diabetics off dialysis, and even shows potential for a COVID treatment. Can't write ivermection off just yet. The main problem with it is it's a dirt cheap generic that Big Pharma can't control, so less research will be done on https://journals.lww.com/americanth...mectin_for_prevention_and_treatment_of.7.aspx_











Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19... : American Journal of Therapeutics


mortality, in secondary outcomes, and in chemoprophylaxis, among people with, or at high risk of, COVID-19 infection. Data sources: We searched bibliographic databases up to April 25, 2021. Two review authors sifted for studies, extracted data, and assessed risk of bias. Meta-analyses were...




journals.lww.com





Long read and I’m not a scientist but my takeaway it’s 62% effective?


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Good question. It's Prediction Interval. Something that data scientists use that is a bit broader than a Confidence Interval. The percentages for the variants is based on samples of COVID-19 tests that are mostly "convenience samples" so a true confidence interval can't be estimated. Bottom line is that the evidence is pretty clear that Delta became the dominant variant in the U.S. by early July, if not a little sooner in some places with a lot of community spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prediction Interval, the wider sister of Confidence Interval | DataScience+
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> datascienceplus.com



So why is that one Delta variant so much higher than everything else?


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> There’s nothing natural about the new mRNA vaccines, just sayin. Other than humans coming up with the tech and controlling the robots manufacturing them for mass production.


That could be said about any medical research that didn't start until technology allowed looking at DNA or poking around a knee from the inside without having to make a huge incision to fix an ACL or badly damaged meniscus.

Moderna was found in 2010. By then mRNA research had been around since the 1990s.









The story of mRNA: From a loose idea to a tool that may help curb Covid


Scientists have dreamed about the possibilities of custom-made messenger RNA. The pandemic may turn those possibilities into realilty.




www.statnews.com


----------



## MarzNC

Gotta go . . . will answer the other questions later.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tjf1967 said:


> Everything is always about you.


Really? I got vaccinated, I didn't travel or even leave the house for anything but outdoor recreation for a year, I wear a mask whenever I'm asked and generally follow public health advice (which my partner gets directly from the health department). The only thing I object to is the idea that your "freedom" means you can ignore science, treat the virus as a political problem and not a public health issue, and do things that put others at risk. 

Maybe you are projecting a little?

mm


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Bottom line is that the evidence is pretty clear that Delta became the dominant variant in the U.S. by early July, if not a little sooner in some places with a lot of community spread.


CDC just put this up bout their study of Delta @ a school outbreak in Cali in May.








						Outbreak Associated with SARS-CoV-2 B.1.617.2 (Delta)...
					

COVID-19 outbreak associated with an unvaccinated infected teacher in an elementary school from May–June 2021 in Marin County, California.




					www.cdc.gov
				



Most if not all of the data released by the FDA and EMA for approval of BioNTech’s Comirnaty was from clinical trials prior to Delta.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Yes, it's true there will be modified vaccines for COVID-19 at some point.
> 
> There are Phase 1/2 studies in progress for a new version of Pfizer and Moderna that were adjusted to deal with known variants. Using the mRNA approach means that modifying a vaccine is a much faster process.
> 
> I saw a video by a UK physician yesterday where he complained that reports about the approval of Pfizer didn't change for efficacy for months. He obviously has no idea that efficacy results much be calculated based on a pre-designed and approved statistical analysis plan. You can't just run a stat analysis any time you want. The underlying assumptions get violated and then the statistical results become invalid. Safety data gets updated as followup continues for clinical trial subjects, as well as information for vaccinated people after release to the public. It was quite clear he has no clue what biostaticians due who work for a regulatory agency that approves medications. The stories my grad school classmates had to tell about working with physicians in the Consulting Lab were pretty funny . . . to a statistician.


The one by the UK physician I put up yesterday here?
Sometimes flu shots work and sometimes they miss due to viral mutations vs predictions.
SARS-CoV-2 has mutated. 
Can regulatory folks write their "statistical analysis plans" to effectively account for this? 
Or isn’t it worth it?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I got sucked down the ivermectin rabbit hole last night on Facebook, wow.


We have a tech at work that takes that shit. He also believes the world is flat and wears a tinfoil hat.
The only part I made up is about the hat.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> The only thing I object to is the idea that your "freedom" means you can ignore science, treat the virus as a political problem and not a public health issue, and do things that put others at risk.
> 
> 
> 
> mm


But you can. Doesn't matter who you are or what you believe. That's freedom.


----------



## x10003q

I think the Apple Flavor is driving usage. "Keep out of reach of children" and some adults, too!


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> The one by the UK physician I put up yesterday here?
> Sometimes flu shots work and sometimes they miss due to viral mutations vs predictions.
> SARS-CoV-2 has mutated.
> Can regulatory folks write their "statistical analysis plans" to effectively account for this?
> Or isn’t it worth it?


Could be. I watched one video and per usual YouTube had suggestions. I wasn't paying close attention since I was doing something else while the video was on. I much prefer reading than watching videos.

A statistical analysis plan is written by biostatisticians who are on the industry side, whether they work for a pharma/biotech company or a CRO (Contract Research Organization). My experience is with projects for drugs, not vaccines. What I know is that you can't change how you analyze efficacy data once patient enrollment starts.

The UNC Biostatistics professor and founder of Quintiles used to say that if a statistical analysis plan was so complicated that a Ph.D. level biostatistician was required to explain the results, then it was a bad idea. Most of the people in my department doing analyses after a clinical trial was completed were Master's level biostatisticians supported by SAS programmers. The company had a few people fully qualified to be high level "consultants" who would help work with client companies to come up with Phase 3 placebo-controlled analysis plans. Meaning biostatisticians who could charge $400+ per hour as a consulting fee (back in the 1990s). FDA biostatisticians would review the plans but I don't remember hearing about a situation where they suggested changes. Quintiles was too good for that to happen. The first few years, Quintiles was unusual because it only provided Biostatistics and Data Management services. The growth beyond 50 people happened after clinical services were added. Meaning CRAs (Clinical Research Associates) who would go around to research sites (often a doctor's office) to help make sure data was begin collected correctly for a given clinical trial.

My impression is that what Pfizer and Moderna did in the last 6 months or so is to work towards setting up separate research to address Delta. That includes lab studies that are are necessary before coming up with plans for Phase 1/2 and Phase 3 trials in humans. What's unusual is that setting up a small study in a country where Delta arrived sooner than the USA was another way to get some evidence of how a vaccine performed before doing an American clinical trial. There is also a lot of research being done in other countries.

Can't read most of the article but here's a relevant news report for Pfizer. The upcoming trial is for a new version of the vaccine.

August 9, 2021








						Pfizer partner tests COVID vaccine targeting Delta variant
					

Germany's BioNTech believes it can switch production to combat the spread of mutations within 100 days.




					fortune.com


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19... : American Journal of Therapeutics
> 
> 
> mortality, in secondary outcomes, and in chemoprophylaxis, among people with, or at high risk of, COVID-19 infection. Data sources: We searched bibliographic databases up to April 25, 2021. Two review authors sifted for studies, extracted data, and assessed risk of bias. Meta-analyses were...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> journals.lww.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Long read and I’m not a scientist but my takeaway it’s 62% effective?


Effective for what? I only read the Abstract, which is what I normally do.

That's the article my immunologist ski buddy had sent me recently. I noticed the UK researchers who wrote the report are funding the effort using GoFundMe. Hmmm . . .

My take away is this sentence: "Low-certainty evidence found that ivermectin prophylaxis reduced COVID-19 infection by an average 86% (95% confidence interval 79%–91%)." Note the clear statement of "low-certainly evidence."

Given that a doctor has to prescribe ivermectin, not much risk for people who don't mind taking low-dose medication for an "off-label" purpose. Personally I don't like the list of minor side effects. I'm happy enough having had shots of an mRNA vaccine that's gone through FDA review. Combined with sensible public health precautions, I don't see the need to take a drug. YMMV

Using a drug off-label happens all the time after a drug has been on the market for a while. Ivermectin has been around since the 1980s.

Sounds like when it comes to treatment for someone who already has symptoms for COVID-19, in particular to avoid serious symptoms, it's less clear whether Ivermectin can help or not. There is only so much that can be learned from a meta-analysis. 

FDA and other regulatory agencies require clinical trials when a company wants to add to the list of approved indications for a drug. I worked on a project for several years for a new indication for a drug that had been on the market for decades. As I remember the Phase 3 studies didn't show any effectiveness for the new indication of interest. One reason Quintiles did well as a company is that a CRO makes money as long as the client company pays for services. Meaning it doesn't matter if a drug doesn't actually turn out to be effective when the Phase 3 analysis is done. Of course, success would have led to more business to put together the NDA safety databases and summary statistics.


----------



## Sbob

MarzNC said:


> Effective for what? I only read the Abstract, which is what I normally do.
> 
> That's the article my immunologist ski buddy had sent me recently. I noticed the UK researchers who wrote the report are funding the effort using GoFundMe. Hmmm . . .
> 
> My take away is this sentence: "Low-certainty evidence found that ivermectin prophylaxis reduced COVID-19 infection by an average 86% (95% confidence interval 79%–91%)." Note the clear statement of "low-certainly evidence."
> 
> Given that a doctor has to prescribe ivermectin, not much risk for people who don't mind taking low-dose medication for an "off-label" purpose. Personally I don't like the list of minor side effects. I'm happy enough having had shots of an mRNA vaccine that's gone through FDA review. Combined with sensible public health precautions, I don't see the need to take a drug. YMMV
> 
> Using a drug off-label happens all the time after a drug has been on the market for a while. Ivermectin has been around since the 1980s.
> 
> Sounds like when it comes to treatment for someone who already has symptoms for COVID-19, in particular to avoid serious symptoms, it's less clear whether Ivermectin can help or not. There is only so much that can be learned from a meta-analysis.
> 
> FDA and other regulatory agencies require clinical trials when a company wants to add to the list of approved indications for a drug. I worked on a project for several years for a new indication for a drug that had been on the market for decades. As I remember the Phase 3 studies didn't show any effectiveness for the new indication of interest. One reason Quintiles did well as a company is that a CRO makes money as long as the client company pays for services. Meaning it doesn't matter if a drug doesn't actually turn out to be effective when the Phase 3 analysis is done. Of course, success would have led to more business to put together the NDA safety databases and summary statistics.


Read the conclusion!


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> My experience is with projects for drugs, not vaccines. What I know is that you can't change how you analyze efficacy data once patient enrollment starts.
> 
> The UNC Biostatistics professor and founder of Quintiles used to say that if a statistical analysis plan was so complicated that a Ph.D. level biostatistician was required to explain the results, then it was a bad idea. Most of the people in my department doing analyses after a clinical trial was completed were Master's level biostatisticians supported by SAS programmers. The company had a few people fully qualified to be high level "consultants" who would help work with client companies to come up with Phase 3 placebo-controlled analysis plans. Meaning biostatisticians who could charge $400+ per hour as a consulting fee (back in the 1990s). FDA biostatisticians would review the plans but I don't remember hearing about a situation where they suggested changes. Quintiles was too good for that to happen. The first few years, Quintiles was unusual because it only provided Biostatistics and Data Management services. The growth beyond 50 people happened after clinical services were added. Meaning CRAs (Clinical Research Associates) who would go around to research sites (often a doctor's office) to help make sure data was begin collected correctly for a given clinical trial.
> 
> My impression is that what Pfizer and Moderna did in the last 6 months or so is to work towards setting up separate research to address Delta. That includes lab studies that are are necessary before coming up with plans for Phase 1/2 and Phase 3 trials in humans. What's unusual is that setting up a small study in a country where Delta arrived sooner than the USA was another way to get some evidence of how a vaccine performed before doing an American clinical trial. There is also a lot of research being done in other countries.


Folks also use SAS software daily to determine and later study Critical Process Parameters (CPP’s) when developing and manufacturing medicines.
SAS is powerful validated software for analyzing big data and making sense out of it.
It would be interesting to see trend-line data for the vaccines.

I’m retired too and focus on critical in-process parameters for golfing and skiing mainly. 
Humans invented mathematics, puzzles and games.
It’s fun to figure stuff out, especially good stuff.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> So why is that one Delta variant so much higher than everything else?


For the week of August 15, Alpha was 0.2% with a range of 0.0% to 0.7% while Delta was 98.8% with a range of 97.6% to 99.8%. So the range for the Prediction Interval was 0.7% for Alpha and 2.2% for Delta. Not sure that's really much different. But then I tend to think in round numbers. Drives my husband nuts when he asks me how much something cost at the grocery store so he can compare to a different store.

Bottom line is that a most of the samples that week were Delta, well over 98%.

The genomic sample data is coming from a lot more places in August 2021 than early in 2021. In general, testing was slow to get organized in 2020. That applied to all types of testing including PCR, rapid antigen, and genomic sequencing.


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> Read the conclusion!


Found it.

Here's what stuck out for me based on a quick look at the section titled All Cause Mortality. I do not have the patience to read that long a report. Especially when I have a friend with more relevant knowledge who is paying close attention to the topic.

_"Meta-analysis of 15 trials, assessing 2438 participants, found that ivermectin reduced the risk of death by an average of *62% (95% CI 27%–81%) *compared with no ivermectin treatment [average RR (aRR) 0.38, 95% CI 0.19 to 0.73; I2 = 49%]; risk of death 2.3% versus 7.8% among hospitalized patients in this analysis, respectively (SoF Table 2 and Figure 3)."_

The 62% figure you noted has a Confidence Interval from 27% to 81%. It's a meta-analysis, no matter how quantitative the report makes the analysis appear. Perhaps Ivermectin is worth investigating, but to start using it on a regular basis as a treatment for people who are hospitalized just based on this report would be a stretch.

Have you searched for lab studies related to Ivermectin and COVID-19?


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Folks also use SAS software daily to determine and later study Critical Process Parameters (CPP’s) when developing and manufacturing medicines.
> SAS is powerful validated software for analyzing big data and making sense out of it.
> It would be interesting to see trend-line data for the vaccines.
> 
> I’m retired too and focus on critical in-process parameters for golfing and skiing mainly.
> Humans invented mathematics, puzzles and games.
> It’s fun to figure stuff out, especially good stuff.


I started using SAS software long before it was possible to process large datasets. Taught the Introduction to SAS course a few times as a grad student. Had to help friends when they took the course from someone else debug their program . . . on punched cards. Wasn't until the SAS '82 version came out that I convinced my Highway Safety co-workers it was worth creating a permanent SAS dataset to analyze NC highway accident data.

SAS Institute is happily helping with COVID-19 research. The corporate headquarters and campus is 20 min from my house. The cafeteria food is really good. Or was when I was working. Used to co-author a paper every year with a friend who worked there. We'd have our meetings just before lunch. 

May 12, 2020








SAS powers response to COVID-19 by health organizations globally


SAS works with health and government organizations across the globe to respond to COVID-19’s unique challenges by putting data to work and supporting analytics-based decisions.




www.sas.com





June 10, 2021








SAS delivers free analytics training for COVID researchers


/PRNewswire/ -- Analytics leader SAS is increasing its support of COVID researchers through new, free analytics training options. A year ago, SAS provided free...




www.prnewswire.com





When it comes to figuring out skiing, I'm a visual learner. Reading about ski technique does very little. Following a really good skier or an instructor is much more effective.


----------



## Warp daddy




----------



## Sbob

MarzNC said:


> Found it.
> 
> Here's what stuck out for me based on a quick look at the section titled All Cause Mortality. I do not have the patience to read that long a report. Especially when I have a friend with more relevant knowledge who is paying close attention to the topic.
> 
> _"Meta-analysis of 15 trials, assessing 2438 participants, found that ivermectin reduced the risk of death by an average of *62% (95% CI 27%–81%) *compared with no ivermectin treatment [average RR (aRR) 0.38, 95% CI 0.19 to 0.73; I2 = 49%]; risk of death 2.3% versus 7.8% among hospitalized patients in this analysis, respectively (SoF Table 2 and Figure 3)."_
> 
> The 62% figure you noted has a Confidence Interval from 27% to 81%. It's a meta-analysis, no matter how quantitative the report makes the analysis appear. Perhaps Ivermectin is worth investigating, but to start using it on a regular basis as a treatment for people who are hospitalized just based on this report would be a stretch.
> 
> Have you searched for lab studies related to Ivermectin and COVID-19?


Guess I’m late to the joke? First I’ve heard ivermectin was used for Covid was yesterday. I searched it and that journal article came up. 

I like to plan ahead in case I have a breakthrough from Pfizer vax . Must say I’m a Merck fan as my wife spent 15yrs in the vaccine division. They donated tons of ivermectin to Africa , it prevents river blindness. So treating humans doesn’t seem like a stretch.


----------



## x10003q

Table: Ivermectin Clinical Data | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines


Review clinical data on the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19.



www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov





no better than a placebo


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> I like to plan ahead in case I have a breakthrough from Pfizer vax


So far, my sense is that except for a relatively small number of seniors (out of hundreds of millions vaccinated) who had underlying medical issues, people who are breakthrough cases recover at home in a few days. 

Being aware that breakthrough infections can happen with enough exposure is important. No COVID-19 vaccine is going to be 100% effective at preventing infection. I'm taking about the same precautions now as I did a year ago. I wasn't the type to wear a mask outdoors in 2020. I carry a cloth mask in my pocket when I go shopping and use it as appropriate depending on my surroundings.

August 26, 2021








Breakthrough Covid Cases: Uncommon and Often Mild, but Not Always


Vaccination remains the best defense, health experts say. But some infections occur regardless, and can come as a traumatic surprise.




www.nytimes.com





Asymptomatic cases of COVID-19 were happening all over the world in 2020. But without routine testing, most were probably never detected. Before Delta, or even Alpha, the thinking was that the percentage of asymptomatic people who would never develop noticeable symptoms was between 20-40%. A few reports said 80% but that didn't hold up because there is another category to consider, which is "pre-symptomatic." Meaning someone who tests positive, but has no symptoms . . . yet.

November 2020








What the data say about asymptomatic COVID infections


People without symptoms can pass on the virus, but estimating their contribution to outbreaks is challenging.




www.nature.com


----------



## MarzNC

For a different viewpoint on why public health precautions are still needed even with vaccines available, check out this interview by an Australian. I learn about the pandemic from the Aussie ski forum. She interviewed a American public health leader in mid-August. He had experience with Ebola and many other public health initiatives in the last few decades. I'm guessing he didn't really know that much about the situation in Australia before the interview. Usually Australians are more interested in advice from someone who is British. What he said about the need to still be careful made sense to me.

The recent lock downs due to community spread of Delta have really messed up the Australian ski season. I think all the ski resorts were forced to shut down. Even when they were open, travel restrictions between Australian states that started in July meant a lot of people cancelled ski vacations. Vaccinations are only up to about 30% overall for fully vaccinated and 50% for first dose. Mostly using Astra Zeneca, which has a 12 week gap between doses. Also using Pfizer but very limited supplies until a few weeks ago. Since the numbers were so low with closed international borders, Australians were in no hurry to get vaccinated. Delta changed the situation by mid-June 2021.

I found the interviewer very annoying. At the same time, I realized she probably is a good representation of how many Australians are thinking right now. After I made a comment, an Aussie posted that she "is a notorious tabloid-tv ‘personality’ who adds a special histrionic _frisson_ to everything."


----------



## Harvey

Louisiana is bracing for a big hit from Hurricane IDA. There is a lot to contend with, including the fact that hospitals are jammed full throughout the southeast and there is no nearby capacity to evacuate patients. Right now the plan is to leave all the patients in place, run the hospitals on huge generators and try to get power back on as quickly as possible. 10,000 lineman have been brought in to try to "quickly" fix the storm damage.


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> Table: Ivermectin Clinical Data | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines
> 
> 
> Review clinical data on the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no better than a placebo


Good to see several Phase 2 double-blind studies, along with the retrospective studies. Lots of countries involved. It's amazing that anyone can keep up with all the research happening for COVID-19.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> But you can. Doesn't matter who you are or what you believe. That's freedom.


Everyone is free to believe anything they want. Your freedom does not extend to putting public health at risk regardless of your beliefs. It’s pretty clear now that beliefs about vaccines, masks and unproven horse drugs are making the pandemic worse in places where those beliefs are prevalent and where people value “freedom “ over science and public health. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> Louisiana is bracing for a big hit from Hurricane IDA. There is a lot to contend with, including the fact that hospitals are jammed full throughout the southeast and there is no nearby capacity to evacuate patients. Right now the plan is to leave all the patients in place, run the hospitals on huge generators and try to get power back on as quickly as possible. 10,000 lineman have been brought in to try to "quickly" fix the storm damage.


There has been a push to have hospitals install big generators ever since Superstorm Sandy. The idea is the hospital provides its own power and power for the immediate neighborhood. That keeps lots of services running and at least some residences livable. You hope that is enough to avert a disaster like Katrina. 
Maybe next week will prove if it works. 

mm


----------



## wonderpony

Harvey said:


> What is PI%?
> 
> I'm not abandoning the vax just assuming that at some point, like the flu vax, there will be a new version, modified to account for Delta or other variants. True or false?
> 
> I got sucked down the ivermectin rabbit hole last night on Facebook, wow.


Just in case you're curious, we don't use ivermectin that much anymore. It's primarily used for bots. Most of the horse people I know do fecals and adjust any deworming accordingly. I haven't wormed in years, due to a closed herd.

Botflies were a big issue when I was a kid. Ivermectin helped get rid of them. I haven't seen a bot fly egg on a horse's leg in years. I guess I can share my ivermectin.


----------



## Brownski

wonderpony said:


> I haven't wormed in years


That’s awesome... trying to worm 20 horses in a day is a PITA. One of my least favorite horse memories


----------



## wonderpony

Brownski said:


> That’s awesome... trying to worm 20 horses in a day is a PITA. One of my least favorite horse memories


I am also not around cows. Cows are a big carrier of bots, if I remember correctly.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> In general, testing was slow to get organized in 2020. That applied to all types of testing including PCR, rapid antigen, and genomic sequencing.


If ya remember, testing sucked in the beginning.
We were flying blind.
Tis a bit better now but there’s gaps.
There’s OTC pregnancy tests as well as real time BAC tests sold OTC.
Technological advances should have had quick tests mass produced and cheap by now if not sooner.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Technological advances should have had quick tests mass produced and cheap by now if not sooner.


Yep, relatively cheap but reliable PCR tests should have been under development before March 2020.

The tricky part with the antigen rapid tests is that False Negatives are pretty common because the timing of when someone takes a test matters. That's why having a second test a few days later was important. On the NC Dashboard when antigen tests became more widely used, the stats were kept separate.

Rutgers came up with a saliva-based test early on. It was approved for emergency use by the FDA in April 2020. As I remember the cost if mass production had happened was estimated to be under $10. At least one other university developed a saliva-based test that was used for mass testing of students on a regular basis for the 2020-21 school year. Broad Institute in Boston was doing mass testing for a bunch of New England colleges. A ski buddy had a daughter in a small private college who was being tested three times a week because she lived off campus.

The express delivery approach by Vault for a home PCR test uses a saliva sample. Not cheap at about $120 last winter, but very convenient for my ski buddies who wanted/needed to be tested before and after a ski trip out west. Telemedicine was used so make sure the sample was taken properly. Alta Lodge had Vault test kits available at the desk in April 2021.


----------



## G.ski

Whew! These COVID threads are exhausting to read through.

Can't wait for the snow to fly!


----------



## Harvey

That's the cool thing, read it or don't, if you don't want to.

This made me chuckle, the dude retires on the spot:









						UGA professor quits on the spot after student refuses to wear mask properly in class
					

The Red & Black reported that Irwin Bernstein, who is an 88-year-old retiree-rehire, resigned on Tuesday. Bernstein was teaching an upper division psychology seminar when a student arrived at a 25-person class without a mask.




					www.wsbtv.com


----------



## G.ski

Harvey said:


> That's the cool thing, read it or don't, if you don't want to.


Quite a bit of good info here and more trustworthy than many other sources. 
So it's worth the read.


----------



## Harvey

I can't follow it all, but I do appreciate it too.


----------



## XTski

G.ski said:


> Whew! These COVID threads are exhausting to read through.
> 
> Can't wait for the snow to fly!


yeah some snoozers there, reaction scoze:zzzzz… won’t be long till the white stuff is flying around


----------



## CNY Skier

Milo Maltbie said:


> WTF? You're 55 and you're worried about the long term? I can tell you the long term. You're in the third quarter. If you get vaccinated, your health is gonna suck compared to what it was when you were in your 30s. If you don't get vaxxed, it's still gonna suck and maybe you end up in the ICU on a ventilator.
> 
> And why put vaccine in quotes? Is that some kind of extreme vaccine denialism by denying that vaccines are in fact vaccines? Does that make you think you are smarter than the average ignorant anti-vaxxer? Changing what you name something doesn't change its effectiveness, which so far these vaccines have proven to be the best thing we have.
> 
> mm


Well, my kids are grown adults so I can assure you that I won't send them to school with your granddaughter!

As to your other comments, I will go where I please as I always have. I say this with the utmost of respect (as we have never met) but your fear of a virus that affects a miniscule proportion of society is irrational. A society cannot function when the health of less than 1% of the population dictates the behavior of the remaining 99%.

Yes, I am in my third quarter as are many of us. I've already had Covid but if I get it again I'll take my chances as it is preferable to living in constant fear. I'll repeat my mantra - stay healthy, stay thin, eat well and supplement as needed.

vaccine is in quotes because this new vaccine does not prevent sickness. Simple as that. And no, I'm no smarter than the average ignorant anti-vaxxer. Despite my education (BS, MBA) I'm part of a stupid bunch of people who can't help themselves.

And no, I will not wear a face mask. You are delusional if you think they have any impact whatsoever.


----------



## CNY Skier

x10003q said:


> Table: Ivermectin Clinical Data | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines
> 
> 
> Review clinical data on the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no better than a placebo


Perhaps, but perhaps not. Why are people not open to the possibility that this disease can be defeated early before it develops into a serious condition? This obsession with these so-called vaccines is baffling.


----------



## CNY Skier

Brownski said:


> I believe this is what Marz was refering to before when she was talking about denominators. When close to everybody is vaccinated a larger percentage of the cases will naturally be “breakthroughs”.


Just think about what you are saying here...


----------



## Ripitz

Want freedom? If it’s all good, would you go into this thing at the County Fair?



There was a line. Sounds like you are in it from a distance. What’s your comfort zone?


----------



## Tjf1967

CNY Skier said:


> Well, my kids are grown adults so I can assure you that I won't send them to school with your granddaughter!
> 
> As to your other comments, I will go where I please as I always have. I say this with the utmost of respect (as we have never met) but your fear of a virus that affects a miniscule proportion of society is irrational. A society cannot function when the health of less than 1% of the population dictates the behavior of the remaining 99%.
> 
> Yes, I am in my third quarter as are many of us. I've already had Covid but if I get it again I'll take my chances as it is preferable to living in constant fear. I'll repeat my mantra - stay healthy, stay thin, eat well and supplement as needed.
> 
> vaccine is in quotes because this new vaccine does not prevent sickness. Simple as that. And no, I'm no smarter than the average ignorant anti-vaxxer. Despite my education (BS, MBA) I'm part of a stupid bunch of people who can't help themselves.
> 
> And no, I will not wear a face mask. You are delusional if you think they have any impact whatsoever.


----------



## Tjf1967

Geez doesn't want to get a shot... Doesn't want practice being safe. Glad I don't live around you. You're a real winner


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Geez doesn't want to get a shot... Doesn't want practice being safe. Glad I don't live around you. You're a real winner


Common bro. All you have to do is stay healthy, be thin, eat well, and supplement when needed....lol
I'm fucked!


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> Yes, I am in my third quarter as are many of us. I've already had Covid but if I get it again I'll take my chances as it is preferable to living in constant fear. I'll repeat my mantra - stay healthy, stay thin, eat well and supplement as needed.


Respectfully, I feel you may be confusing being respectful with fear.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> As to your other comments, I will go where I please as I always have. I say this with the utmost of respect (as we have never met) but your fear of a virus that affects a miniscule proportion of society is irrational. A society cannot function when the health of less than 1% of the population dictates the behavior of the remaining 99%.


Yes, the odds are in all of our favors. However, the 1% is completely taxing our healthcare workers. They're at their wits end. My wife is now coming home with bruises on her face (again) from 13 to 14 hours of wearing masks taking care of that 1%, most of whom aren't vaxed. That's disrespectful and frankly I'm sick of people disrespecting our doctors and nurses.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> And no, I will not wear a face mask. You are delusional if you think they have any impact whatsoever.


Do you not respect the store, grocery, gas, lumber etc owners? By not wearing them you are disrespecting them because every store I go into says unvaxxed must wear a mask. If that's the case you get no respect from me. I fucking hate wearing masks but I did it, and I'm doing it again when inside out of respect for my fellow Americans.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Yes, the odds are in all of our favors. However, the 1% is completely taxing our healthcare workers. They're at their wits end. My wife is now coming home with bruises on her face (again) from 13 to 14 hours of wearing masks taking care of that 1%, most of whom aren't vaxed. That's disrespectful and frankly I'm sick of people disrespecting our doctors and nurses.


They have rights you know!!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> They have rights you know!!


For sure. That's why I used the word respectfully more than once. Antivaxxers have rights but lose all respect from me.


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> Want freedom? If it’s all good, would you go into this thing at the County Fair?
> View attachment 10265
> There was a line. Sounds like you are in it from a distance. What’s your comfort zone?


Lost me on this one bro?


----------



## Warp daddy

Harvey said:


> That's the cool thing, read it or don't, if you don't want to.
> 
> This made me chuckle, the dude retires on the spot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UGA professor quits on the spot after student refuses to wear mask properly in class
> 
> 
> The Red & Black reported that Irwin Bernstein, who is an 88-year-old retiree-rehire, resigned on Tuesday. Bernstein was teaching an upper division psychology seminar when a student arrived at a 25-person class without a mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsbtv.com


 Professor B , FTW !!!


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> This made me chuckle, the dude retires on the spot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UGA professor quits on the spot after student refuses to wear mask properly in class
> 
> 
> The Red & Black reported that Irwin Bernstein, who is an 88-year-old retiree-rehire, resigned on Tuesday. Bernstein was teaching an upper division psychology seminar when a student arrived at a 25-person class without a mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsbtv.com


Congrats to the student! Freedom FTW!

mm


----------



## Harvey

The prof had actually come out of retirement to help with the teacher shortage.

He was 88. If I was 88 not sure there is anything that could get me to work.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

CNY Skier said:


> ... I will go where I please as I always have.


If you won't wear a mask, you can't fly naywhere or go to theYMCA, if you don't vax you can't go to Canada, serve in the military, study at SUNY or work in a hospital. Soon you won't be able to go to Europe regardless of vaccination.


CNY Skier said:


> And no, I will not wear a face mask. You are delusional if you think they have any impact whatsoever.


Science FTW:








An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19


The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission...




www.pnas.org












Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2


This JAMA Insights CDC review summarizes accumulating evidence that mask wearing reduces spread of SARS-CoV-2 infection and that universal mandatory mask wearing policies reduce infections and deaths and emphasizes face masks are one component of pandemic control measures, including physical...




jamanetwork.com












Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus


We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.




www.ucsf.edu












Do face masks work? Here are 49 scientific studies that explain why they do


Reasons for mask hesitancy and doubt include conflicting data from health officials, political biases and cultural unfamiliarity (studies showed mask wearing was lower in countries where face maski…




www.kxan.com





Is it delusional or just ignorant to ignore science?

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> The prof had actually come out of retirement to help with the teacher shortage.
> 
> He was 88. If I was 88 not sure there is anything that could get me to work.


Teaching can be really gratifying, but some students are just assholes. I know I had a hard time relating to younger students as I got older. That's why I got out of it. I still do a seminar once in a while but that's only because they spend the whole time telling me how great I am to get me to do it.
IT was probably something like that for Professor B.

mm


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> He was 88. If I was 88 not sure there is anything that could get me to work.


Yup, but ta reiterate, if you do what you love you will never work a day in your life.
Maybe he loved to teach college folks, up to a point.


----------



## wonderpony




----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> but some students are just assholes


My dad taught HS for 30+ years. He'll be the first to tell you the majority of students are awesome, the parents are the challenging ones. With that, that the biggest change he noticed throughout his career would be how the parents had changed, not the kids.


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> Teaching can be really gratifying, but some students are just assholes. I know I had a hard time relating to younger students as I got older. That's why I got out of it. I still do a seminar once in a while but that's only because they spend the whole time telling me how great I am to get me to do it.
> IT was probably something like that for Professor B.
> 
> mm



I taught high school art (pottery and photography) for a year in a private school.

Parts of it were good. The students who took it seriously were great. They were a minority (in more ways than one). There were a few who were jerks, spoiled rich kids who didn't give an F.

At the end of my first term I learned that I was not allowed to fail kids who did nothing, because they wouldn't graduate. I gave them Ds.

The pay was ridiculously low. I'm embarrassed to say how much it was. I quit.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I taught high school art (pottery and photography) for a year in a private school.
> 
> Parts of it were good. The students who took it seriously were great. They were a minority (in more ways than one). There were a few who were jerks, spoiled rich kids who didn't give an F.
> 
> At the end of my first term I learned that I was not allowed to fail kids who did nothing, because they wouldn't graduate. I gave them Ds.
> 
> The pay was ridiculously low. I'm embarrassed to say how much it was. I quit.


Attaboy.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> My dad taught HS for 30+ years. He'll be the first to tell you the majority of students are awesome, the parents are the challenging ones. With that, that the biggest change he noticed throughout his career would be how the parents had changed, not the kids.


Camp, What’d yer dad teach, besides you?


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Camp, What’d yer dad teach, besides you?


LOL
He taught chemistry and physics.
He was also the one who brought the computer lab into our school district. 
My mom says he was that nerdy dude walking around in college with a pocket protector and slide ruler. Physics majors, ya know?


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> LOL
> He taught chemistry and physics.
> He was also the one who brought the computer lab into our school district.
> My mom says he was that nerdy dude walking around in college with a pocket protector and slide ruler. Physics majors, ya know?


My high school chemistry teacher was much better than most of the profs I had in undergrad college.
Nerds can be and have fun too.


----------



## Joneski73

Campgottagopee said:


> My dad taught HS for 30+ years. He'll be the first to tell you the majority of students are awesome, the parents are the challenging ones. With that, that the biggest change he noticed throughout his career would be how the parents had changed, not the kids.


My wife has taught for 20 plus years and she would agree with this 100%.


----------



## Endoftheline

Harvey said:


> Lost me on this one bro?


Lots of people crying about their freedom somehow being infringed on for various reasons, but I think their spelling of freedom is more like FREEDUMB. Just my observation.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I taught high school art (pottery and photography) for a year in a private school.
> I quit.


Didn’t know ya is an artist. Helps to explain yer ❤️ for nice pics.
Do ya still throw pots?
I’d like a mug with skiing art on it.
Could help support yer ski blog-forum.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> ... the majority of students are awesome, the parents are the challenging ones.


I taught at the college level so I didn't have any contact with parents, but I was the asshole parent. When my son was in HS, we got into a fight with his guidance counselor over a course he wanted to take. I think he was impressed with the way I stood up for him and won, but the guidance counselor called in sick every time we scheduled a meeting with her after that. I thought I was just applying the ethical negotiation principles that I learned on my job, in a non-threteaning way, but apparently the intensity was too much for her. I lost a lot of respect for her after that, and for the whole school administration for the way they handled subsequent meetings.

mm


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> Didn’t know ya is an artist. Helps to explain yer ❤️ for nice pics.
> Do ya still throw pots?
> I’d like a mug with skiing art on it.
> Could help support yer ski blog-forum.



I don't throw anymore. I actually sold off my entire studio before we moved two years ago. 

Blogging is a much easier way to work for no money than ceramics. It's much more compatible with skiing. More social too.

I love eating and drinking out of handmade stuff. I have a pretty good supply of things, some made by me and some by the master I studied under: 





__





Byron Temple - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org









__





Byron Temple


Byron Temple was first exposed to handcrafted pottery through the ceramic pots his family used on a rural farm in Indiana. His interest in ceramics led him to study at Ball State University, the Brooklyn Museum Art School, and the Art Institute of Chicago.




americanart.si.edu





He was a great person, with a legit place in ceramics history. He was a little guy and pretty old, I would do his grunt work in the morning, lifting heavy stuff, loading kilns, making clay, etc and he would teach me in the afternoon. He had this thing for gourmet snacks and would feed me some great stuff from some place he called Zabar's (?).

Eventually pottery breaks (it's part of the potters business model!) And slowly my collection is getting smaller. Some of my favorites have been superglued!

My mom has a twelve piece dinner set she bought from Byron that she wants to pass on to me.


----------



## Brownski

God bless the teachers- really. It’s a hard job that is absolutely vital for everyone’s future. That being said, I can only remember one teacher from my whole career as a student who I would consider sitting down with to catch up. Most of them were unremarkable clock punchers. A few were remarkable for being clueless, uncaring assholes. I have teachers in my family too who seem like good caring professionals. Really- I look at my cousin and aunt who are teachers and they seem saintly almost. But it’s hard to square with what I remember from school. It’s hard to square with what an utter failure our educational system is overall too.


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> . It’s hard to square with what an utter failure our educational system is overall too.


I feel like this is one of those “I hate Congress, but I like *my* congressman” things.

What would you say we’re failing in the most? And, if we’re such a failure, why do so many people from around the world want to come here to learn?


----------



## Harvey

What are the criteria that determine success or failure of an educational system?

I really enjoyed my college education. The second best part was catholic school k-4. I guess that means I like the private better than the public.

I'm probably not the best person to judge my own education. It certainly didn't train me for a specific job, I had to figure that out for myself. But college taught me how to write — which in my mind is teaching someone to think.


----------



## Brownski

Probably too hard not to make it political but we’re completely failing at providing a basic K-12 education to kids who aren’t naturally gifted or lucky enough to get the basics at home. Social promotion or whatever it is. Our literacy rate is way too low. It obviously varies a great deal district to district but a HS diploma should at least mean that a kid can read and write and do basic math, know a decent bit of history, civics, economics- basically be a person who is ready to be a productive member of society. A HS diploma should say to an employer “this person is at least teachable”.
It has less harmful impacts but schools also do a terrible job of helping C & B student underachievers really reach their potential.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Probably too hard not to make it political but we’re completely failing at providing a basic K-12 education to kids who aren’t naturally gifted or lucky enough to get the basics at home. Social promotion or whatever it is. Our literacy rate is way too low. It obviously varies a great deal district to district but a HS diploma should at least mean that a kid can read and write and do basic math, know a decent bit of history, civics, economics- basically be a person who is ready to be a productive member of society. A HS diploma should say to an employer “this person is at least teachable”.
> It has less harmful impacts but schools also do a terrible job of helping C & B student underachievers really reach their potential.


Laid down the 420 post ✌️


----------



## Low Angle Life

Brownski said:


> It has less harmful impacts but schools also do a terrible job of helping C & B student underachievers really reach their potential.


Growing up with a learning disability that went unnoticed until high school I can confirm that under achievers are often left behind or to fend for themselves. 

My partner teaches in a multiple disability classroom ages 7-9, I can also confirm that they are similarly not given the appropriate resources to succeed to their fullest potential, keep in mind this is in a top 10 school district in NJ. The irony that her classroom is in a moldy basement is a great illustration of this.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Laid down the 420 post ✌️


Didn’t even realize


----------



## JTG

On the way down to the beach at Marconi today I heard a scary thing…..as a father was probably trying to explain the ‘keep off the dunes’ signs to his maybe 8 year old daughter…..this girls says “but dad, grass isn’t a living thing”.

Zoinks.

As my wife, a second grade teacher, sits at 8pm on a summer Monday and does school work preparing for her year I can say that, as much as there may be breakdowns in the system, there are great dedicated teachers out there. Sadly, too few….


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

Natural immunity for the win?








Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot


People who recovered from a bout of Covid-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic appear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE.




www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Harvey

Adirondack Johnny said:


> Natural immunity for the win?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot
> 
> 
> People who recovered from a bout of Covid-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic appear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 10277


Looks like a nice bike. The crocs are a nice touch too.

What about those who got covid and Moderna? ?

I actually saw another article that said just the opposite. Who knows, I don't.


----------



## Brownski

JTG and Johny both posting! Welcome back, men


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

Brownski said:


> JTG and Johny both posting! Welcome back, men


I have one other comment to make.






?


----------



## Harvey

I think that ^^ is two comments.

The people who are worried got vaxed? Or maybe they care about others. Who knows.

It's actually not hard to find people who are unvaxed and worried.





__





LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You


For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.




bfy.tw


----------



## Sbob

Judge strips Chicago mother of parental rights for not being vaccinated


A Chicago mother is appealing a court order that revoked her parental visiting rights because she declined to be vaccinated against the coronavirus.




news.yahoo.com





Way too far people !!!!


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> . Our literacy rate is way too low..


I don’t know, man. I read this whole Wikipedia article and came away thinking we are doing pretty good for a nation of immigrants:









Literacy in the United States - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





And what defines a “productive member of society”? As judge smails says in Caddyshack, the world needs ditchdiggers, too.


----------



## MarzNC

Adirondack Johnny said:


> Natural immunity for the win?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot
> 
> 
> People who recovered from a bout of Covid-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic appear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com


The human body is pretty complicated and amazingly adaptable. I gather from my friends who have medical or immunology backgrounds that there is a lot more to fighting off a COVID-19 infection than some antibodies, which are known not to hang around for too long once the infection is cleared. The thinking for a while has been that natural immunity after someone recovers from COVID-19 is pretty good protection against a future infection, even from a different variant. Although people can end up with symptoms from a later infection. Research about re-infection started in 2020. The big question is how long natural immunity lasts. Same question as for vaccine-induce protection against serious illness and death. Hard to predict what will be known 2-3 years into the future.

The studies that are more interesting at this point are those that include a timeframe when Delta was around.

August 25, 2021, medRxiv (pre-print)
Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections




__





Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections


Background Reports of waning vaccine-induced immunity against COVID-19 have begun to surface. With that, the comparable long-term protection conferred by previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 remains unclear. Methods We conducted a retrospective observational study comparing three groups...




www.medrxiv.org





July 13, 2021, (Israel)
Natural infection vs vaccination: Which gives more protection?








Natural infection vs vaccination: Which gives more protection?


Nearly 40% of new COVID patients were vaccinated - compared to just 1% who had been infected previously.




www.israelnationalnews.com





May 28, 2021
Assessment of SARS-CoV-2 Reinfection 1 Year After Primary Infection in a Population in Lombardy, Italy








Assessment of SARS-CoV-2 Reinfection 1 Year After Primary Infection in a Population in Lombardy, Italy


This cohort study examines the rate of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection among people in Lombardy, Italy, who previously recovered from COVID-19.




jamanetwork.com


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Looks like a nice bike. The crocs are a nice touch too.


I'm partial to the above redhead, just sayin.


----------



## Brownski

If my reading comprehension is adequate I believe that MarzNC’s articles all lean toward natural immunity being better. 
Something I’m curious about is how well the J&J vaccine is working against the variants. Initial reports indicated it wasn’t as efficacious as the 2-shot MRNA vaccines. Is that still the consensus?


----------



## tirolski

Life forms have existed in somewhat balance since life started on this beautiful blueish rock.
When the folks cracked the human genome most were amazed humans have fewer genes than plants.
Microbes and plants also have immune systems to afford protection from pathogens.
The human body contains more non-human genetic material than they do human.
Keep yer good bugs happy. 

Why do little kids like to eat dirt?


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Something I’m curious about is how well the J&J vaccine is working against the variants. Initial reports indicated it wasn’t as efficacious as the 2-shot MRNA vaccines. Is that still the consensus?


J&J is planning on asking for FDA approval for a booster shot. The efficacy is clinical trials was a bit lower than the mRNA vaccines. However, J&J was tested in South Africa when Delta was around and it did quite well.

My ski buddy opted for J&J because she has allergies that might have meant slightly more potential for side effects with Pfizer or Moderna. She's been happy with the decision.

August 25, 2021








Johnson & Johnson Announces Data to Support Boosting its Single-Shot COVID-19 Vaccine | Johnson & Johnson


Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine booster, after single dose primary regimen, provided rapid and robust increase in spike-binding antibodiesNew studies build on data demonstrating strong durability through eight months after immunization




www.jnj.com





August 10, 2021




__





J&J shot highly effective against delta variant, South African study finds


Johnson & Johnson's COVID-19 vaccine was up to 71 percent effective against hospitalization from infection with the delta variant of the coronavirus in a South African study, The Wall Street Journal reported.




www.beckershospitalreview.com


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I don't throw anymore. I actually sold off my entire studio before we moved two years ago.
> Blogging is a much easier way to work for no money than ceramics.
> I love eating and drinking out of handmade stuff. I have a pretty good supply of things, some made by me and some by the master I studied under:
> He was a great person, with a legit place in ceramics history. He was a little guy and pretty old, I would do his grunt work in the morning, lifting heavy stuff, loading kilns, making clay, etc and he would teach me in the afternoon.
> Eventually pottery breaks (it's part of the potters business model!) And slowly my collection is getting smaller. Some of my favorites have been superglued!
> My mom has a twelve piece dinner set she bought from Byron that she wants to pass on to me.


Nice!
Are ya familiar with what an upstater has done in the pottery field? .
Have yet to meet him but he seems like a good guy. He’s from Owego not Oswego as incorrectly stated in the article




__





The Chipstone Foundation






www.chipstone.org


----------



## Thacheronix

Speaks to me








Vaccine Refusers Don’t Get to Dictate Terms Anymore


People who opt out of shots shouldn’t expect their employers, health insurers, and fellow citizens to accommodate them.




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Thacheronix said:


> Speaks to me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine Refusers Don’t Get to Dictate Terms Anymore
> 
> 
> People who opt out of shots shouldn’t expect their employers, health insurers, and fellow citizens to accommodate them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


People start paying attention when it effects their wallet. Instead of paying people to get the shot they should charge those who don't?


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> People start paying attention when it effects their wallet. Instead of paying people to get the shot they should charge those who don't?


What about making obese pay more and folks with other somewhat controllable health risks?
Ya might want to be careful running down that road.


----------



## Tjf1967

tirolski said:


> What about making obese pay more and folks with other somewhat controllable health risks?
> Ya might want to be careful running down that road.


I'm for that. I paid more when I used to smoke.


----------



## Harvey

Insurance does all kinds of charging for risk. (Age, driving record, smoking etc). Certainly people with co-morbidities affect all of us with cost of care. But you can't catch obesity from someone else.

This is a little bit more like second-hand smoke and less like wearing a seatbelt.


----------



## tirolski

One thing America has been great at is consuming i.e. (shopping).
If ya could find an effective way to shop for the best effective healthcare we’d all be winners.
Co-pays hide true costs.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> What about making obese pay more and folks with other somewhat controllable health risks?
> Ya might want to be careful running down that road.


Hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. Slippery slope. As Harv says you can't get phat from someone else.


----------



## Harvey

What is the cost of being in an ICU for a month before you die? Who pays that? We all do.


----------



## MC2

tirolski said:


> One thing America ha been great at is consuming i.e. (shopping).
> If ya could find an effective way to shop for the best effective healthcare we’d all be winners.
> Co-pays hide true costs.


You think when you break your leg, you should call several ambulance services & several hospitals to try to get the best “deal” on healthcare while you go into shock?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> What is the cost of being in an ICU for a month before you die? Who pays that? We all do.


.Also don’t forget the long haulers. Costs for them continue cause they don’t die.

We all “paid" for the vaccines too but the first vaccine shots were given “free” to the consumer. 0$ copay and some folks got paid to get em.
Vaccine protection has been shown to wane most likely due to the transcribed spike protein generated antibody level observed decrease over time along with viral variant mutations.
Y'all gonna subscribe to vaccine updates as we go forward if ya got to pay for the true costs for em?
What if the vaccine causes antibody dependent enhancements?
Who be paying for that? BioNTech? They own the vaccine approvals.


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> You think when you break your leg, you should call several ambulance services & several hospitals to try to get the best “deal” on healthcare while you go into shock?


Wouldn’t have to time shop so no.
For stroke care there’s hospitals touting their record for stroke treatments. They just don’t include the costs in their ads, just sayin.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

MC2 said:


> You think when you break your leg, you should call several ambulance services & several hospitals to try to get the best “deal” on healthcare while you go into shock?


Absolutely! You'll never have more leverage to negotiate a deal than when you are lying on the floor with a debilitating and painful injury.
The truth is that individual negotiation- either for direct health care or for insurance- will never work because there is little competition in the health care industry. Most hospitals have merged into regional monopolies, and very few counties have have competitive insurance markets, at least for individual coverage. The only way to control costs is Medicare for everyone, then tell doctors they're gonna have to take a pay cut and tell 90-year-olds they can't have heart transplants or knee replacements. That's a political choice, and despite all the grumbling we have pretty clearly chosen to have costly medical care.

mm


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> I’d like a mug with skiing art on it.


Me too


----------



## tirolski

Don’t forget about the lawyering industry gatherin some cash from it too.
Ole Miss’ own old Dickie Skruggs made some taking on tobacco and asbestos lawsuits.








Conversations | Richard "Dickie" Scruggs | Season 15 | Episode 1505


Dickie Scruggs talks about his time in prison and future plans since his release.




www.pbs.org


----------



## wonderpony

Cornell has had 232 cases in two weeks, 182 (177 students, 5 staff/faculty) of them from August 26 - 29. The numbers from yesterday aren't in yet.


----------



## Campgottagopee

wonderpony said:


> Cornell has had 232 cases in two weeks, 182 (177 students, 5 staff/faculty) of them from August 26 - 29. The numbers from yesterday aren't in yet.


WOW!
I'm already dreading the reports from SUNY


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> WOW!
> I'm already dreading the reports from SUNY


The Percent Positives I'm seeing on the few colleges I'm following are fine. Well under 1% for students. No one has more than mild symptoms so far. Detected case numbers going up is to be expected, especially on campuses that require testing once or twice a week. That means people with no symptoms are being detected. Breakthrough infection will happen for a small percentage of the vaccinated students. I think students are more aware in 2021 and more likely to get tested if they have any symptoms or a sense that they might have been exposed to COVID-19. That's good because those individuals who test positive will go into isolation and that's how to slow down community spread.

For UNC-Chapel Hill, only people who test positive are required to isolate or quarantine. Slightly different rules depending on whether a students lives in a dorm or off-campus. What's different from the spring semester is that people identified as close contacts who test negative are not required to isolate. The vaccination rate among students is just over 80%. That means 20% are either unvaccinated or didn't want to attest one way or another. That's potentially about 5000 people being tested regularly, including the 20% of faculty and staff who aren't vaccinated yet.

The small NC county where UNC-Chapel Hill is located has pretty much the lowest Percent Positive out of all 100 NC counties. Fair to say a good chunk of the people who are in Orange County are involved with UNC-CH in some way. Chapel Hill is usually very empty the first two weeks of August when there are no classes between summer session and the start of the fall semester.


----------



## tirolski

Looks like a couple top dogs are getting out of the FDA.
Doubt they’ll be hired by the CDC any time soon.




__





Two FDA Vaccine Officials to Leave After Covid Clearances






www.msn.com


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Looks like a couple top dogs are getting out of the FDA.
> Doubt they’ll be hired by the CDC any time soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two FDA Vaccine Officials to Leave After Covid Clearances
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


Isn't that a bit of a cheap shot? One of them got his M.D. in 1984. Could be a well deserved retirement. Some headlines scream "resignation" with negative overtones in the articles. A career in public health is not an easy one.

I have grad school classmates to worked at FDA for all or part of their career.


----------



## sibhusky

I'm sure that like a lot of public health people in the last year they are just worn out. At least they stuck it out through the real tough period of their job. We had people quitting in county health offices right during the worst of it.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Isn't that a bit of a cheap shot? One of them got his M.D. in 1984. Could be a well deserved retirement. Some headlines scream "resignation" with negative overtones in the articles. A career in public health is not an easy one.
> 
> I have grad school classmates to worked at FDA for all or part of their career.


Maybe they’ll write a book if allowable.
I’d read it.
Where’s the cheap shot?

I forgot they're “free" (as of now) and some folks get paid to get ‘em so it’s better than a cheap shot.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Looks like a couple top dogs are getting out of the FDA.
> Doubt they’ll be hired by the CDC any time soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two FDA Vaccine Officials to Leave After Covid Clearances
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com





tirolski said:


> Maybe they’ll write a book if allowable.
> I’d read it.
> Where’s the cheap shot?
> 
> I forgot they're “free" (as of now) and some folks get paid to get ‘em so it’s better than a cheap shot.


The way I read the second sentence about "hired by the CDC" came off as dissing the people leaving FDA and the CDC. Not sure I understand your last statement either. But I won't lose sleep over it.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> The way I read the second sentence about "hired by the CDC" came off as dissing the people leaving FDA and the CDC. Not sure I understand your last statement either. But I won't lose sleep over it.


They didn’t leave the CDC they left the FDA.

The other was just playin with the words "cheap shot”.
Have a nice night.

Here’s more spin on their FDA departures.








In a major blow to vaccine efforts, senior FDA leaders stepping down


Two of the FDA's most senior vaccine leaders are exiting from their positions, raising fresh questions about the Biden administration and the way that it's sidelined the FDA. Marion Gruber, director of the FDA's Office of Vaccines Research & Review and 32-year veteran of the agency, will leave...




endpts.com


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> They didn’t leave the CDC they left the FDA.
> 
> The other was just playin with the words "cheap shot”.
> Have a nice night.
> 
> Here’s more spin on their FDA departures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a major blow to vaccine efforts, senior FDA leaders stepping down
> 
> 
> Two of the FDA's most senior vaccine leaders are exiting from their positions, raising fresh questions about the Biden administration and the way that it's sidelined the FDA. Marion Gruber, director of the FDA's Office of Vaccines Research & Review and 32-year veteran of the agency, will leave...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> endpts.com


Yeah, I understood they were leaving FDA.

After reading the second article your comments make more sense. The relationship between FDA decisions and CDC recommendations has been a bit unusual. But then everything about the vaccine development for COVID-19 is completely different than the usual process.


----------



## CNY Skier

Campgottagopee said:


> Yes, the odds are in all of our favors. However, the 1% is completely taxing our healthcare workers. They're at their wits end. My wife is now coming home with bruises on her face (again) from 13 to 14 hours of wearing masks taking care of that 1%, most of whom aren't vaxed. That's disrespectful and frankly I'm sick of people disrespecting our doctors and nurses.


I'm sorry but I don't understand your previous post about confusing respect with fear. I fear little except tyranny and mob mentality. I respect the opinions of all on this forum - even the ones who launch personal attacks toward a person they have never met. It's a forum of ideas so it's all good and I can take the beating, deserved or not.

Anyway, it sounds like your wife is a nurse and that's great - I've known a few and could not do their job for a day. That said, I just checked in on Cortland County stats (presumably your home) and they are reporting a total of 8 Covid hospitalizations. That's hardly an overwhelming number of covid patients for a county of that size. Nurses often have to put on full PPE for a variety of diseased patients - it just sucks. We both know that nurses pretty much everywhere are overworked. The fact that they are forced to wear masks full time is a tragedy. If your wife is fully vaccinated then technically she should have no worries, correct?


----------



## CNY Skier

tirolski said:


> What about making obese pay more and folks with other somewhat controllable health risks?
> Ya might want to be careful running down that road.


Agreed. There are many personal choices people make that can jeopardize their long term health. However, group life insurance only works if all risks are normalized throughout the pool. I'm willing to cut my fellow citizen some slack and pay a little more for their transgressions; hopefully they will return the favor every now and then.


----------



## CNY Skier

Milo Maltbie said:


> If you won't wear a mask, you can't fly naywhere or go to theYMCA, if you don't vax you can't go to Canada, serve in the military, study at SUNY or work in a hospital. Soon you won't be able to go to Europe regardless of vaccination.
> 
> Science FTW:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19
> 
> 
> The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pnas.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2
> 
> 
> This JAMA Insights CDC review summarizes accumulating evidence that mask wearing reduces spread of SARS-CoV-2 infection and that universal mandatory mask wearing policies reduce infections and deaths and emphasizes face masks are one component of pandemic control measures, including physical...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamanetwork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus
> 
> 
> We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ucsf.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do face masks work? Here are 49 scientific studies that explain why they do
> 
> 
> Reasons for mask hesitancy and doubt include conflicting data from health officials, political biases and cultural unfamiliarity (studies showed mask wearing was lower in countries where face maski…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kxan.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it delusional or just ignorant to ignore science?
> 
> mm


Wrong. I can fly anywhere in the US. I don't need to go to the YMCA - have my own home gym. Will never go back to Canada - not much there worth seeing and the country is a tyrannical mess. Too old to serve in the military. Have enough degrees so no need for SUNY. Not a medical person. Already have seen most of Europe so no need to go back.

As for the mask thing, I could match your five studies with 20 studies that show that mask do basically nothing. Let's face it - it's not settled science.

What's troubling is that you seem to be proud of the fact that some of my freedoms have been limited. Where will you stop?


----------



## CNY Skier

Tjf1967 said:


> Geez doesn't want to get a shot... Doesn't want practice being safe. Glad I don't live around you. You're a real winner





Tjf1967 said:


> Geez doesn't want to get a shot... Doesn't want practice being safe. Glad I don't live around you. You're a real winner


If you would just read a little bit you may understand why many of us don't want to get the shots. I do practice being safe by taking care of my own health - you might try to do the same. You may live around me - how would I know? And thank you for realizing that I am a winner!


----------



## CNY Skier

Harvey said:


> I think that ^^ is two comments.
> 
> The people who are worried got vaxed? Or maybe they care about others. Who knows.
> 
> It's actually not hard to find people who are unvaxed and worried.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You
> 
> 
> For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bfy.tw


I find it odd that people who are vaccinated are worried a bit at all that there are unvaccinated amongst them. The PM of Canada the other day said something to the effect that "unvaccinated people are unnecessarily put the vaccinated at risk." Is there not some level of insanity in that statement? 

If you truly believe in the Covid vaccination then you should have no worries - you're good to go.


----------



## G.ski

Can't wait to pick this up again tomorrow, it's like a COVID soap opera.


----------



## x10003q

CNY Skier said:


> Wrong. I can fly anywhere in the US.


You cannot enter an airport or fly on a commercial flight without a mask. 




__





TSA extends face mask requirement at airports and throughout the transportation network | Transportation Security Administration


WASHINGTON – The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is extending the face mask requirement for individuals across all transportation networks throughout the United States, including at airports, onboard commercial aircraft, on over-the-road buses, and on commuter bus and rail systems...




www.tsa.gov






CNY Skier said:


> I don't need to go to the YMCA - have my own home gym. Will never go back to Canada - not much there worth seeing and the country is a tyrannical mess. Too old to serve in the military. Have enough degrees so no need for SUNY. Not a medical person. Already have seen most of Europe so no need to go back.


You sound like a reasonable person. Canada is the center of the tyranny universe.


CNY Skier said:


> As for the mask thing, I could match your five studies with 20 studies that show that mask do basically nothing. Let's face it - it's not settled science.
> 
> What's troubling is that you seem to be proud of the fact that some of my freedoms have been limited. Where will you stop?



Hey Mr Science, how about some links to those 20 "studies" that say masks "do basically nothing"? Here's a hint: Youtube videos do not count as studies.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> I'm sorry but I don't understand your previous post about confusing respect with fear. I fear little except tyranny and mob mentality. I respect the opinions of all on this forum - even the ones who launch personal attacks toward a person they have never met. It's a forum of ideas so it's all good and I can take the beating, deserved or not.
> 
> Anyway, it sounds like your wife is a nurse and that's great - I've known a few and could not do their job for a day. That said, I just checked in on Cortland County stats (presumably your home) and they are reporting a total of 8 Covid hospitalizations. That's hardly an overwhelming number of covid patients for a county of that size. Nurses often have to put on full PPE for a variety of diseased patients - it just sucks. We both know that nurses pretty much everywhere are overworked. The fact that they are forced to wear masks full time is a tragedy. If your wife is fully vaccinated then technically she should have no worries, correct?


Apologies if you took any of my words as an attack. Not my intention. 
It seemed as though you think folks are getting vaxed out of fear of getting covid. I think the vast majority who get vaxed do it out of respect for their fellow American and not fear.
The issue isn't the number of people who are sick, it's the number that are there to take care of them, and there ain't enough. Therefore those who are there are most certainly overwhelmed.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> I respect the opinions of all on this forum


This is interesting. You strive to be Mr. Respect here, yet every single day you disrespect every business owner and health care professional simply by not wearing a mask when asked too. Winners don't do that. That shit is bush league.


CNY Skier said:


> If your wife is fully vaccinated then technically she should have no worries, correct?


This isn't about her, you, me, or any other individual. It's way bigger than that. The concern would be giving covid to my parents, her mom, or our neighbors who are a whisker under 90. 
Also, this isn't about being right or wrong. You can be right! You win!!! YAY!!!!! I don't care. It's more about doing what's right. Nobody can do it alone. ✌️


----------



## Harvey

CNY Skier said:


> If you truly believe in the Covid vaccination then you should have no worries - you're good to go.


I worry about others, the economy and govt spending.

I'd like to get back to business. Covid is making commerce tough for us and others too. (we're in the travel biz). Our company has gotten a govt handout to help us survive. I really appreciate it, but imo it would be better for all if we didn't have to spend that money. Also I'd rather spend my time doing work as it used to be defined, not dealing with covid protocols and employee fear.



CNY Skier said:


> The PM of Canada the other day said something to the effect that "unvaccinated people are unnecessarily put the vaccinated at risk." Is there not some level of insanity in that statement?


As I said my livelyhood is at risk.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> You cannot enter an airport or fly on a commercial flight without a mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TSA extends face mask requirement at airports and throughout the transportation network | Transportation Security Administration
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON – The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is extending the face mask requirement for individuals across all transportation networks throughout the United States, including at airports, onboard commercial aircraft, on over-the-road buses, and on commuter bus and rail systems...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tsa.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like a reasonable person. Canada is the center of the tyranny universe.
> 
> 
> Hey Mr Science, how about some links to those 20 "studies" that say masks "do basically nothing"? Here's a hint: Youtube videos do not count as studies.


Add the Syracuse Crunch to the list too









Syracuse Crunch will require proof of Covid vaccinations, masks at home games


The Crunch opens its home season on Oct. 23.




www.syracuse.com





I've also heard there's a push to stop unemployment benefits for those who refuse to get vaxed.


----------



## Tjf1967

CNY Skier said:


> If you would just read a little bit you may understand why many of us don't want to get the shots. I do practice being safe by taking care of my own health - you might try to do the same. You may live around me - how would I know? And thank you for realizing that I am a winner!


I assume from your handle you live in CNY. No a big leap there. I also addressed fitness. Read well I've read plenty. Both sides. I've formed my opinion of you..


----------



## Campgottagopee

yikes








Ohio judge orders hospital to give COVID-19 patient ivermectin


WEST CHESTER, Ohio (WKRC) — Right now, an Ohio man is being treated with ivermectin, a drug commonly used as an animal dewormer. This comes after his wife filed a lawsuit to make it happen. The Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention both strongly warn against...




cnycentral.com


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> yikes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ohio judge orders hospital to give COVID-19 patient ivermectin
> 
> 
> WEST CHESTER, Ohio (WKRC) — Right now, an Ohio man is being treated with ivermectin, a drug commonly used as an animal dewormer. This comes after his wife filed a lawsuit to make it happen. The Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention both strongly warn against...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnycentral.com


Here's a more detailed report. The patient tested positive on July 9, was hospitalized in mid-July, and has been on a ventilator since early August. Most of the COVID-19 patients in ICU in Ohio are unvaccinated.

August 30, 2021








Butler County judge orders West Chester Hospital to treat COVID-19 patient with ivermectin, despite CDC warnings


Both the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have warned Americans against the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19



www.cincinnati.com





The doctor who prescribed a 5-day treatment with ivermectin co-founded the organization that is the primary source of information about the value of ivermectin as part of a combination treatment. That website pushes a treatment for hospitalized patients that includes ivermectin plus a long list of vitamins and other medications, like melatonin. They have three "protocols" with cute names for different situations. If you like, there is plenty of swag on in their e-store.

I'm not convinced that I should go out and ask my doctor for a prescription.


----------



## wonderpony

I can't tell you how funny I find the fact that people are taking ivermectin for COVID. That stuff is gross, even the apple flavored version. Ask any of the horses that I have wormed with it. It's kind of like a chalky, thick toothpaste and the trick is to get them to keep their mouths shut and actually swallow it. I can't tell you how much has been spit on me or ended up on the floor. They won't eat anything for a while afterwards, not even treats.

But, maybe people who don't believe that the vaccine works somehow believe that a product which is designed for getting rid of worms in the gut will believe that said product will work on a respiratory virus.


----------



## MarzNC

After a bit more reading, I understand better why the NIH is keeping an eye on research related to ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19. Any drug development program has to start in the lab. Successful Phase 1 and Phase 2 studies are needed to check safety and to determine a "safe and effective" dose. All drugs are toxic above a certain dose. Assuming there is evidence of efficacy, that leads to an analysis plan for Phase 3 studies, ideally two separate clinic trials for a new drug. I would guess one well-designed Phase 3 trial would be sufficient for a potential treatment for COVID-19. But so far the Phase 2 trial results are inconclusive.

I came across this article in a chemistry journal. The co-authors are very clear in their conclusion that what they suggest is that researching " . . . explore the suggested drugs within permissible levels in clinical trial to unearth their potential in combination therapy for the better treatment of COVID-19." 

March 2020


https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acsptsci.0c00140


----------



## Brownski

wonderpony said:


> That stuff is gross, even the apple flavored version. Ask any of the horses that I have wormed with it. It's kind of like a chalky, thick toothpaste and the trick is to get them to keep their mouths shut and actually swallow it.


Can confirm


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> I can't tell you how funny I find the fact that people are taking ivermectin for COVID. That stuff is gross, even the apple flavored version. Ask any of the horses that I have wormed with it. It's kind of like a chalky, thick toothpaste and the trick is to get them to keep their mouths shut and actually swallow it. I can't tell you how much has been spit on me or ended up on the floor. They won't eat anything for a while afterwards, not even treats.
> 
> But, maybe people who don't believe that the vaccine works somehow believe that a product which is designed for getting rid of worms in the gut will believe that said product will work on a respiratory virus.


Sounds nasty! I've only had to deal with worms in cats or dogs.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> I've also heard there's a push to stop unemployment benefits for those who refuse to get vaxed.





MarzNC said:


> Here's a more detailed report. The patient tested positive on July 9, was hospitalized in mid-July, and has been on a ventilator since early August. Most of the COVID-19 patients in ICU in Ohio are unvaccinated.
> 
> August 30, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Butler County judge orders West Chester Hospital to treat COVID-19 patient with ivermectin, despite CDC warnings
> 
> 
> Both the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have warned Americans against the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> www.cincinnati.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The doctor who prescribed a 5-day treatment with ivermectin co-founded the organization that is the primary source of information about the value of ivermectin as part of a combination treatment. That website pushes a treatment for hospitalized patients that includes ivermectin plus a long list of vitamins and other medications, like melatonin. They have three "protocols" with cute names for different situations. If you like, there is plenty of swag on in their e-store.
> 
> I'm not convinced that I should go out and ask my doctor for a prescription.


So the crowd that doesn't trust vaccinations recommended by the scientific community and medical profession wants government judges to make decisions about medical treatment? 
Interesting.

mm


----------



## MarzNC

Ivermectin was approved by the FDA for use against certain parasites at a pretty low dose. Apparently Merck has been donating it to people in Africa to combat "river blindness" for 30 years. There is a prescription topical lotion approved for use on head lice. Apparently taking ivermectin as a pill to help get rid of head lice seems to help, but that is an off-label use.









35 Years: The Mectizan® Donation Program - Merck.com


The Mectizan Donation Program is the longest-running, disease-specific drug donation program of its kind.




www.merck.com





I think some naturally cautious people want to believe that ivermectin is helpful is because they are looking for whatever protection they can get against infection. Even fully vaccinated people since breakthrough infections clearly are happening a bit more because of Delta when universal masking or social distancing isn't happening. The idea of having to mask up whenever a stranger or someone you don't see often is around is not of interest to anyone. But anyone, vaccinated or not, could be infectious if they haven't been tested recently. For that matter False Negatives happen.

At this stage vaccines are being developed and tested to minimize serious illness and death since SARS-CoV-2 is so new. The mRNA approach and parallel effort to set up manufacturing meant the time having all the data and documentation for full FDA approval was faster than usual. Plus it was pretty easy in 2020 to recruit 30,000-40,000 volunteers for the Phase 3 clinical trials for multiple vaccine candidates simultaneously. Extra funding meant doing a few trials in other countries could happen at the same time. That was useful as the variants surfaced. Research related to come up with something that will prevent infection or decrease the chance of transmission by someone who is infected is happening, but will take a while.


----------



## MarzNC

Milo Maltbie said:


> So the crowd that doesn't vaccinations recommended by the scientific community and medical profession wants government judges to make decisions about medical treatment?
> Interesting.
> 
> mm


Not exactly. In this case the wife was grasping at anything to try to save her husband. He'd already had all the approved treatment medications and protocols for 3 weeks in July before he was put on a ventilator. She "researched" online and found the ivermectin proponents, who are physicians too. So she believed them over the doctors who had been treating her husband for weeks. It's possible the idea of a lawsuit was suggested by the doctor who wrote the ivermectin prescription. It's not the first time. He's obviously getting a lot of press from the story.


----------



## MarzNC

@Campgottagopee : here's my reaction to the post in the other thread about the Mu variant.

There are only four Variants of Concern as identified by WHO and followed by CDC. The ones that really spread across continents are Alpha and Delta. There are currently four Variants of Interest. Mu became one of them recently. Note that Mu is not the 8th variant to be identified, it's the 12th letter of the Greek alphabet (had to look that up). That means four identified variants faded away. Every time a new variant is identified, there is a concern the mutation that makes it different could be problematic in one way or another. I know people who have been panicked by headlines about Lambda for a while.

Viruses mutate. My understanding is that coronaviruses usually mutate less often than flu viruses. But SARS-CoV-2 is a novel coronavirus that is easily transmitted for days by people with no symptoms. This pandemic is very unusual because of that fact.









Tracking SARS-CoV-2 variants


Tracking SARS-CoV-2 variants




www.who.int





Alpha was estimated at around 65% of the detected cases in the USA in late May 2021. As of last week, Delta is probably over 98%. With the genomic testing of samples going on, not too likely that a new variant will sneak in undetected.









COVID Data Tracker


CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



covid.cdc.gov


----------



## Milo Maltbie

MarzNC said:


> Not exactly. In this case the wife was grasping at anything ...


My response was too cold. I've seen too many in my own family chasing crazy treatments that all end sadly. I hope when my time comes I don't go off looking for quack remedies, but...

mm


----------



## MC2

MarzNC said:


> Ivermectin was approved by the FDA for use against certain parasites at a pretty low dose. Apparently Merck has been donating it to people in Africa to combat "river blindness" for 30 years. There is a prescription topical lotion approved for use on head lice. Apparently taking ivermectin as a pill to help get rid of head lice seems to help, but that is an off-label use.


Okay, but here’s what Merck says about taking it for COVID:


> KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 for evidence of efficacy and safety. It is important to note that, to-date, our analysis has identified:
> 
> 
> No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;
> No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;
> A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.
> We do not believe that the data available support the safety and efficacy of ivermectin beyond the doses and populations indicated in the regulatory agency-approved prescribing information


----------



## Sbob

MC2 said:


> Okay, but here’s what Merck says about taking it for COVID:


Yea but they can make more $$$
Selling this?








Merck Announces Supply Agreement with U.S. Government for Molnupiravir, an Investigational Oral Antiviral Candidate for Treatment of Mild to Moderate COVID-19 - Merck.com


U.S. government commits to purchase approximately 1.7 million courses of Molnupiravir upon issuance of Emergency Use Authorization or approval by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today announced it has entered into a...




www.merck.com





I’m a Merck fan but?


----------



## tirolski

Merck’s a world leader in vaccine R&D, clinical, manufacturing and marketing.
They stopped their SARS-CoV-2 vaccine program a while ago.


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> Yea but they can make more $$$
> Selling this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Merck Announces Supply Agreement with U.S. Government for Molnupiravir, an Investigational Oral Antiviral Candidate for Treatment of Mild to Moderate COVID-19 - Merck.com
> 
> 
> U.S. government commits to purchase approximately 1.7 million courses of Molnupiravir upon issuance of Emergency Use Authorization or approval by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today announced it has entered into a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.merck.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m a Merck fan but?


I looked at the basic info for the trials that NIH considered worth reviewing to see what potential there is for using ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19. There are quite a few in the NIH table (under the Clinical Data tab). If there had been solid evidence in even 1-2 trials, I would expect NIH to be quite interested.

I worked on three full drug development programs during 15 years at Quintiles. Meaning starting with the Phase 3 clinical trials and the projects were supposed to go all the way to the NDA (New Drug Application) submission. Only one drug made it. It was in use in Europe but well designed American trials are always required by the FDA. I was a member of the project team for a long time. The work after the Phase 3 efficacy analysis was done took at least another year, maybe more. The other two companies spent a lot of money on Phase 3 trials but there was no significant difference between placebo and the drug candidate for the indication of interest. The advantage Quintiles had as a CRO was that it still made money several years of working for the client companies. The founder often said that a CRO was "recession proof" as a business.

From NIH webpage about treatment with ivermectin, as of Feb 2021:


----------



## MarzNC

As an aside, Merck has been donating ivermectin, brand name Mectizan, for use to prevent river blindness in Africa for 30 years. 









35 Years: The Mectizan® Donation Program - Merck.com


The Mectizan Donation Program is the longest-running, disease-specific drug donation program of its kind.




www.merck.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> gotten a govt handout to help us survive


So many businesses and people are very thankful for what was done for us. That said, when should it stop? Right now there are help wanted signs everywhere, and owners are upping their starting pay so the message of low wages is getting out. Why on earth does this make sense to those in charge?









NY eviction moratorium will be extended through January


Governor Kathy Hochul announced Tuesday evening that the state’s eviction moratorium will be extended once again, through January 15th. Hochul announced she is calling the state legislature back into a special session Wednesday to discuss the extension, which is one of three priorities on the...




cbs6albany.com


----------



## XTski

Campgottagopee said:


> So many businesses and people are very thankful for what was done for us. That said, when should it stop? Right now there are help wanted signs everywhere, and owners are upping their starting pay so the message of low wages is getting out. Why on earth does this make sense to those in charge?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NY eviction moratorium will be extended through January
> 
> 
> Governor Kathy Hochul announced Tuesday evening that the state’s eviction moratorium will be extended once again, through January 15th. Hochul announced she is calling the state legislature back into a special session Wednesday to discuss the extension, which is one of three priorities on the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cbs6albany.com


Sounds like Kathy is just another lazy state employee trying to give hand outs to be popular instead of working her ass off , I have not taken one cent of money from any kind of coved relief, I work for a living not living off of others


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> So many businesses and people are very thankful for what was done for us. That said, when should it stop? Right now there are help wanted signs everywhere, and owners are upping their starting pay so the message of low wages is getting out. Why on earth does this make sense to those in charge?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NY eviction moratorium will be extended through January
> 
> 
> Governor Kathy Hochul announced Tuesday evening that the state’s eviction moratorium will be extended once again, through January 15th. Hochul announced she is calling the state legislature back into a special session Wednesday to discuss the extension, which is one of three priorities on the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cbs6albany.com


My lawn and plow service yesterday announced a 70.3 per cent price increase on THIS argument .

So I told them sayonnara baby , the CPI is projected at 5.4 and peeps on fixed incomes MAY see that in their ss checks come January, but no one is getting that kind of raise ( 70%) in the real world .The annualized new price would be more than i pay in property taxes .

A 70.3 percent increase is a bridge too far , i can buy a riding lawn mower a damn good one on what i 'll save and i already have an Ariens 9hp snowblower . I got lazy after hip replacement i HAD to have this service during recovery period and just continued it .......BUT that just changed


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Merck’s a world leader in vaccine R&D, clinical, manufacturing and marketing.
> They stopped their SARS-CoV-2 vaccine program a while ago.


Merck is actively involved in COVID-19 research and vaccine production. They are partnering with J&J for manufacturing. Merck is still researching oral medication for treatment of mild-to-moderate COVID-19 symptoms.

March 10, 2021, Merck








Why we’re excited to partner on Johnson & Johnson’s COVID-19 vaccine - Merck.com


Our company has teamed with Johnson & Johnson to ramp up vaccine production - here’s what it means




www.merck.com





April 15, 2021, Merck - an FAQ








COVID-19 - Merck.com


Merck is committed to advancing research and development efforts for our investigational oral antiviral COVID-19 medicine and making a meaningful impact on the pandemic.




www.merck.com


----------



## MarzNC

Hopefully a last post about ivermectin. Feel free to ignore. Ivermectin may be worth investigating as part of combination treatment for mild/moderate cases of COVID-19, but the folks pushing it hard in social media and claiming they are being censored right now are not trustworthy in my opinion.

Found that a key research article touted on the website of the proponents of a specific ivermectin treatment approach was rejected in March 2021 by an international journal. Essentially it didn't pass the peer review process. Frontiers is a non-profit founded by a neuroscientists in Switzerland in 2007. It stays in business because in 2021 "Frontiers becomes financially self-sustainable with the Article Processing Charges business model." Not exactly in the same class as the New England Journal of Medicine or the Lancet.

April 2021, The Conversation
Ivermectin: why a potential COVID treatment isn’t recommended for use








Ivermectin: why a potential COVID treatment isn’t recommended for use


The antiparasitic drug was thought to be a potential treatment for COVID-19, but there isn’t sufficient evidence to recommend its use, despite widespread support online.




theconversation.com





March 2, 2021, The Scientist
Frontiers Removes Controversial Ivermectin Paper Pre-Publication








Frontiers Removes Controversial Ivermectin Paper Pre-Publication


A review article containing contested claims about the tropical medicine drug as a COVID-19 treatment was listed as "provisionally accepted" on the journal's website before being removed this week.




www.the-scientist.com





March 2, 2021, Frontiers




__





2 March 2021 – Media statement - Science & research news | Frontiers


Article rejection: Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19. Dr. Frederick Fenter, Chief Executive Editor of Frontiers: “Regardless of the publication stage or subject of a manuscript, if the integrity of an article is...




blog.frontiersin.org




_" 
Article rejection: Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19.

Dr. Frederick Fenter, Chief Executive Editor of Frontiers:

“Regardless of the publication stage or subject of a manuscript, if the integrity of an article is called into question, our policy is to investigate. Upon further scrutiny by our Research Integrity team about the objectivity of this paper during the provisional acceptance phase, it was revealed that the article made a series of strong, unsupported claims based on studies with insufficient statistical significance, and at times, without the use of control groups. Further, the authors promoted their own specific ivermectin-based treatment which is inappropriate for a review article and against our editorial policies.

“In our view, this paper does not offer an objective nor balanced scientific contribution to the evaluation of ivermectin as a potential treatment for COVID-19. Frontiers’ has published more than 2,000 rigorously peer-reviewed articles on COVID-19 since the pandemic erupted via our Coronavirus Knowledge Hub, and we are acutely aware of just how critical high-quality, objective research in this area is at this time. Frontiers takes no position on the efficacy of ivermectin as a treatment of patients with COVID-19, however, we do take a very firm stance against unbalanced or unsupported scientific conclusions.
. . ."_


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> So many businesses and people are very thankful for what was done for us. That said, when should it stop? Right now there are help wanted signs everywhere, and owners are upping their starting pay so the message of low wages is getting out. Why on earth does this make sense to those in charge?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NY eviction moratorium will be extended through January
> 
> 
> Governor Kathy Hochul announced Tuesday evening that the state’s eviction moratorium will be extended once again, through January 15th. Hochul announced she is calling the state legislature back into a special session Wednesday to discuss the extension, which is one of three priorities on the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cbs6albany.com


I can't kick people out but the major of Albany was on TV telling the general public landlords had to stop the tenants from having parties in the street. She pretty much put in rent control last year. She really annoys me.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I can't kick people out but the major of Albany was on TV telling the general public landlords had to stop the tenants from having parties in the street. She pretty much put in rent control last year. She really annoys me.


I was thinking about you when I read this. Right, can't pay rent so lets party!!
A buddy of mine here has a few, like 4, who haven't paid him shit for over a year now. He's feeling it, can't do anything about it, to say the least he's pissed.


----------



## Harvey

XTski said:


> Sounds like Kathy is just another lazy state employee trying to give hand outs to be popular instead of working her ass off , I have not taken one cent of money from any kind of coved relief, I work for a living not living off of others



I didn't exactly take the money. I passed it from the government to our employees, like a middleman. It was all used for wages for people we let go in March 2020, and brought back when we got it. They'd be on enhanced unemployment if we didn't bring them back.

At the time we didn't have the work for those people we let go, but now we really need them and are trying to hire too (not easy). I'm glad we were able to keep people because if we didn't we'd be telling our clients we can't deliver for them now.

FWIW we've given almost everyone except owners a raise. Business is pretty good for now and we believe we can afford it. If we go back to travel lockdowns we'll be in trouble. One thing that is really helping us is that most of our customers rely on DOMESTIC travel.


----------



## Harvey

Tjf1967 said:


> the major of Albany


Is the army running the NY state govt now? ?


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> Is the army running the NY state govt now? ?


Sorta


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

You ever notice how commercials that say "You may be entitled to financial compensation..." often refer to something the FDA has approved?


----------



## Tjf1967

Adirondack Johnny said:


> You ever notice how commercials that say "You may be entitled to financial compensation..." often refer to something the FDA has approved?


Like cigarettes or priests touching boys. Good try. Get your shot


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Merck is actively involved in COVID-19 research and vaccine production. They are partnering with J&J for manufacturing. Merck is still researching oral medication for treatment of mild-to-moderate COVID-19 symptoms.


Yup. Merck has a lot of vaccine manufacturing capacity.
A point was they opted on doing R&D on SARS-CoV-2 infection therapeutics instead of R&D on SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> The foam on the top acts like soap but tastes much better.


Beer foam looks and acts like soap but mouthwash is promising too.
Ya can swallow beer too legally if yer old enough.








Two mouthwashes disrupt COVID-19 virus under laboratory conditions


Researchers at Rutgers School of Dental Medicine have found evidence that two types of mouthwash disrupt the COVID-19 virus under laboratory conditions, preventing it from replicating in a human cell.




www.news-medical.net


----------



## MC2

It’s amazing what politics talk gets a pass on this forum and what gets a ban.

Extremely interesting.


----------



## wonderpony

I started my Cornell COVID spreadsheet for the semester on August 16. We are currently at 354 cases 17 days in. 305 of those are from the last 8 days. We had a total of 591 cases for spring 2021 and 557 for Fall 2020. Cornell still insists that what it is doing is working, but I am not so sure.


----------



## jasonwx

Here ya go









						Oh My Fucking God, Get the Fucking Vaccine Already, You Fucking Fucks
					

Hi, if you are reading this essay then congratulations, you are still alive. And if you are alive, then you have either gotten the COVID-19 vaccine...




					www.mcsweeneys.net


----------



## Harvey

MC2 said:


> It’s amazing what politics talk gets a pass on this forum and what gets a ban.



Not sure what this refers to, things seem pretty tame right now.

I'm hearing this from both left and right. Basically being told I am blind to politics to the left, and I assume based on the source in this comment also blind to it on the right. I'm not sure what this post is referring to in this case. Another quote via PM: "they only reason all hell isn't breaking loose is because the right has been so restrained" or something close.

I may have mentioned this, there are several admins in the XF forum who have banned all discussion of vax and masks because politics can't be avoided.

I hate to do it, because covid is on the mind of many of us, and I personally like to see the data posted. But this thread is locked.

It seems everything that really matters is now political, so I guess we can't really talk about anything important here.


----------



## Low Angle Life

CDC said if you can pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time and are vaccinated you can return to work immediately even if showing symptoms. 

In all seriousness though, the GET BACK TO WORK bullshit for essential workers is getting insensitive. My lady is being told she has to return to teaching even if she tests positive and is only showing mild symptoms after 2 days of "quarantine". I know things change but we are on full steam with the "gotta keep the machine running no matter how many of you get run through the wood chipper shit".


----------



## Campgottagopee

Low Angle Life said:


> CDC said if you can pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time and are vaccinated you can return to work immediately even if showing symptoms.
> 
> In all seriousness though, the GET BACK TO WORK bullshit for essential workers is getting insensitive. My lady is being told she has to return to teaching even if she tests positive and is only showing mild symptoms after 2 days of "quarantine". I know things change but we are on full steam with the "gotta keep the machine running no matter how many of you get run through the wood chipper shit".


This is true 
More cases now than ever 
Last year the "pause" worked 
Can we survive another one?


----------



## Low Angle Life

I'm not hear to say whats right or wrong, just commenting on the seemingly seismic shift in approach. Shit is pretty comical, if quarantine didn't make ya crazy lets see if this does. 

Mask up on gondolas y'all.


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> So it’s blowing up during the peak holiday and travel season? No way, who would’ve thunk?
> 
> Everything is so fucked.
> 
> Flagstaff canceled the New Years pine cone drop.


I hear those pine cones can be brutal... they'll take you're eye out kid.



Campgottagopee said:


> Obviously no. It's only a matter of time before it happens here at GP. My wife told me our ER looked like a 3rd world country yesterday.


Ugh. Honestly at this point it's the load on the hospital system and its employees as being the only thing that concerns me.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Andy_ROC said:


> Ugh. Honestly at this point it's the load on the hospital system and its employees as being the only thing that concerns me.



Same here. I honestly don't think I'd feel that way or even realize how bad it truly is if I wasn't married to a nurse. Her sister is also a nurse at the same hospital. She lives a mile away from us and spends a lot of time here at the house. The stories they tell me are mind blowing. One big issue is how hospital administration doesn't care about the well-being of their docs and nurses, rather they keep throwing big money at them to continually show up for work. Raising the census and staying off diversion is what they are concerned about, patient care and staff health, both mental and physical, is purely secondary.


----------



## Warp daddy

Andy_ROC said:


> I hear those pine cones can be brutal... they'll take you're eye out kid.
> 
> 
> Ugh. Honestly at this point it's the load on the hospital system and its employees as being the only thing that concerns me.


Its very very difficult , drs have banded togerther and written letters BEGGING people to get vaxxed . Think about when THIS has ever happened ????

This county ONLY has 59 per cent vaxx rate and mirrors other rural counties where it is raging . Frankly money is no longer an incentive to staff who are toasted from the unrelenting stress of carrying for patients who fail to do the right thing , SOME for a second time around .

Will stop here before this gets LOCKED too


----------



## wonderpony

My son had covid last May/June. He has been double vaccinated. Last night, he let me know that he is positive again. His version of quarantine is/was 5 days of isolation, followed by 5 days of mask wearing. He figures that he picked it up at Christmas, and is already in the mask phase. (He went to my ex-husband's house for Christmas. Not sure about the vax rate there or who was positive. As curious as I am, I am not asking.)

To make this related to skiing, wear your mask in the lift line. I was only one of a handful wearing masks yesterday. Stay safe!


----------



## raisingarizona

Snoloco? Where you at man? We need to hear your thoughts and feelings on all of this.


----------



## Warp daddy

wonderpony said:


> My son had covid last May/June. He has been double vaccinated. Last night, he let me know that he is positive again. His version of quarantine is/was 5 days of isolation, followed by 5 days of mask wearing. He figures that he picked it up at Christmas, and is already in the mask phase. (He went to my ex-husband's house for Christmas. Not sure about the vax rate there or who was positive. As curious as I am, I am not asking.)
> 
> To make this related to skiing, wear your mask in the lift line. I was only one of a handful wearing masks yesterday. Stay safe!



Glad he is ok , the double jab might have lessened the impact , out of curiousity was he boosted too ? Our county as of this week : only 59 per cent had at least one shot of 3 which is a problem .


----------



## wonderpony

Warp daddy said:


> Glad he is ok , the double jab might have lessened the impact , out of curiousity was he boosted too ?


Not yet.


----------



## Warp daddy

Thank you WP' again happy that he is coming thru this . Stay well, but have fun out there too?


----------



## Brownski

Andy_ROC said:


> Ugh. Honestly at this point it's the load on the hospital system and its employees as being the only thing that concerns me.


me too.


Campgottagopee said:


> Raising the census and staying off diversion is what they are concerned about, patient care and staff health, both mental and physical, is purely secondary.


That really sucks. I'm amazed that the powers that be haven't done something to boost overall hospital capacity or at least acknowledged that dialing it back in Berger commission days was a mistake. MBAs are ruining the world.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> It has to affect operations right? 86 out of 1000 total? More to follow I bet.


I'd guess that most of them are in indoors roles? So the lifts and snow guns can keep running at least. Closing a few registers and authorizing more overtime might be enough to keep it going. Although now that I'm reading this, I guess my theory is based on the assumption that they're picking it up at work, which we don't have any way of knowing....


----------



## Andy_ROC

Brownski said:


> me too.
> 
> That really sucks. I'm amazed that the powers that be haven't done something to boost overall hospital capacity or at least acknowledged that dialing it back in Berger commission days was a mistake. MBAs are ruining the world.


For many places it's not bed capacity that's the issue, its staffing. My MD friends say everyone is pretty burned out and spread thin. The lock downs in the early pandemic days really helped prevent a surge on hospitals in ROC.

It's quite maddening that most of the current patients are preventable if they just got the vaccine.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> I'd guess that most of them are in indoors roles? So the lifts and snow guns can keep running at least. Closing a few registers and authorizing more overtime might be enough to keep it going. Although now that I'm reading this, I guess my theory is based on the assumption that they're picking it up at work, which we don't have any way of knowing....


I don’t think it would be based on the staffs number of cases but more so based on the possible outcome if they aren’t proactive about stopping the spread now.


----------



## Warp daddy

Our docs and nurses are saying the same things Andy ! I have never seen these hard working pros this toasted in the 27 yrs i have been on the Board .

Physician recruitment is very , very difficult right now and has always been a challenge for sole community hospitals . Rent a docs are actually more expensive but many have to go that route to fill gaps ...........its NOT good and THIS failure to vax is going to cause major systemic failures i am afraid.

Only the naive think that is not a possibility . Behavior HAS consequences that even money and incentives cannot fix


----------



## raisingarizona

Local nurses here are fed up seeing super green, zero experienced travel nurses coming in and making more money then they are, some of them have been loyal employees for 20+ years.


----------



## tirolski

Y’all should know buy now there is a difference between a case of SARS-CoV-2 and a case of CoViD-19.
A case of SARS-CoV-2 is defined by a”positive test", for what’s that worth.
CoViD-19 is related to havin a "positive test" & bein symptomatic for the actual dis-ease, allegedly.

Be careful & nice, stay healthy ya filthy animals.
Happy 2020too.


----------



## wonderpony

Warp daddy said:


> Thank you WP' again happy that he is coming thru this . Stay well, but have fun out there too?


You're welcome. He's 24, so there's not much I can do to influence him. Thankfully, his new GF can. He didn't get vaccinated until September, I think, so he won't be eligible for a bit. 

I never stopped having fun. It just got modified.  I still got in 30ish ski days last year, just masked in the lift line. I maintained my jogging and yoga. I also discovered that when bundled up well enough, jogging in 20 degrees is no big deal. 

The things I do miss, now that I am back at work in person, are the extra time to ride my pony longer in the mornings and meeting and chatting with neighbors that I had never met prior to the pandemic


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> I'd guess that most of them are in indoors roles? So the lifts and snow guns can keep running at least. Closing a few registers and authorizing more overtime might be enough to keep it going. Although now that I'm reading this, I guess my theory is based on the assumption that they're picking it up at work, which we don't have any way of knowing....


I would be surprised if the community spread is happening while at work at Killington. That was not the case last season. Situations that involves employees sharing lodging and out socializing during off-hours are much more likely to be when/where exposure happens.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Y’all should know buy now there is a difference between a case of SARS-CoV-2 and a case of CoViD-19.
> A case of SARS-CoV-2 is defined by a”positive test", for what’s that worth.
> CoViD-19 is related to havin a "positive test" & bein symptomatic for the actual dis-ease, allegedly.


SARS-CoV-2 is the official name of the novel coronavirus that started infecting humans in late 2019. For whatever reason, the disease caused by that coronavirus and its variants is called COVID-19. Someone who tests positive for the evidence of SARS-CoV-2 in their system is a "detected case" but someone who goes undetected for whatever reason still had/has COVID-19. Undetected cases will probably always outnumber detected cases because many people who have COVID-19 don't get more than mild symptoms. That was true even for the original "wild-type" and seems even more likely with Omicron.

Someone who doesn't have noticeable symptoms is still contagious. If vaccinated, then probably for only a day or two. Still not well documented how long someone who is unvaccinated and has Omicron is contagious. Clearly longer than someone who is vaccinated but unclear if it's few days than with Delta or not. Still, pays to stay away from anyone who is sneezing or coughing.


----------



## MarzNC

By July 2021 I was saying that "Delta changed the situation." The reality for the 2021-22 season is that Omicron has changed the situation. Omicron has been spreading since early November from what I can tell. There are places where case numbers have been doubling for weeks, including breakthrough cases.

The combination of the need for extra staff during the holiday period plus Omicron reaching all states was unfortunate. Certainly didn't help that there is still very limited terrain in the east.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Certainly didn't help that there is still very limited terrain in the east.


We got terrain.
Lack of snow’s the problem now.


----------



## snoloco

This thread sure blew up. Since Killington is my home mountain, I feel like I should comment on this.

This was to be expected, with the fact that the resort gets crowded, and many of their customers, particularly this time of year are from NYC which is having their omicron wave. The same thing is happening at ski resorts out west. The same thing probably happens at every major ski resort this winter. You can't stop transmission when thousands of people pass through the lodges every day, and many employees are internationals, and likely live in congregate settings.

This is not nearly as serious as if it happened last season. 100% of Killington's staff is vaccinated, and there has not been a single hospitalization associated with this outbreak. I wish everyone who tested positive a speedy recovery. A positive test does not mean the same thing it did a year ago. If this had happened last season, it would've likely resulted in a closure, at least for several weeks.

I skied at Killington today. They now have a mask requirement (which is widely ignored), and some indoor services are limited or closed. The outbreak seems to have hit rentals and food/beverage, since those are the services that were limited. All of the lifts they could have opened were open their normal hours.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> This is not nearly as serious as if it happened last season.


What might you be basing this on?


----------



## jimmypete

sorry all you anti=vaxxers get vaccines it helps I want to ski and live


----------



## raisingarizona

jimmypete said:


> sorry all you anti=vaxxers get vaccines it helps I want to ski and live


I’m fine. I use essential oils and sage my home regularly.


----------



## snoloco

Campgottagopee said:


> What might you be basing this on?


Cases are milder due to vaccines, and there's more of a tolerance for high case numbers and outbreaks. If they had the same number of employees get covid last season, I have no doubt it would've meant a closure.


----------



## CNY Skier

Killington is call the "Beast of the East" for a reason - they get it done. Just saw that Bear Mtn. base area is now open! I'm heading up there in 3 weeks and yes, I expect the work force to be there doing there job. I've done mine for almost 2 years and 95% of it was out in the field, in direct contact with the rest of us poor slobs who can't get it done from our "home office."

The American public, while slow to wake up, has in innate ability to see through the BS. I believe we _are_ in the awakening process. The hype doesn't match reality.

Here's the way I view the current situation: If you took your vaccine and you truly believe in it's effectiveness, then you shouldn't be bothered by anyone there doesn't share your views. If you like your mask then by all means wear the damn thing...you know it works so that fact that I don't wear one shouldn't bother you a bit. I don't believe in either, but I do not think any less of you for doing so. Grant me/us the same decency.


----------



## snoloco

CNY Skier said:


> Killington is call the "Beast of the East" for a reason - they get it done. Just saw that Bear Mtn. base area is now open! I'm heading up there in 3 weeks and yes, I expect the work force to be there doing there job. I've done mine for almost 2 years and 95% of it was out in the field, in direct contact with the rest of us poor slobs who can't get it done from our "home office."


They did get it done, and terrain will keep expanding as long as the weather is cold. Glad to have Bear open as it is my favorite trail pod and lunch spot. And yes, I do expect the lifts to be running since I paid a good amount for my pass.


CNY Skier said:


> The American public, while slow to wake up, has in innate ability to see through the BS. I believe we _are_ in the awakening process. The hype doesn't match reality.


I think this transition will eventually happen, but I'm not confident of the timeline, especially in blue areas. And that includes all ski areas since they draw their customers disproportionately from cities.


CNY Skier said:


> Here's the way I view the current situation: If you took your vaccine and you truly believe in it's effectiveness, then you shouldn't be bothered by anyone there doesn't share your views. If you like your mask then by all means wear the damn thing...you know it works so that fact that I don't wear one shouldn't bother you a bit. I don't believe in either, but I do not think any less of you for doing so. Grant me/us the same decency.


I took 3 Pfizer doses because there was clear data showing it was the best way to avoid symptomatic infection and severe illness. I'm fine with that being the extent of precautions that I take. The problem is if you live in a blue city or state, you're almost certainly living under some kind of mask ordinance. I view these mandates as overreaching and unnecessary. We've blown past so many off ramps, and some even want to make masks a permanent part of life. I struggle to find a way to effectively push back on these policies. Sure you could try to ignore it, but that might mean you have to jump through more hoops than it's worth, like going to multiple stores to find one that doesn't enforce masks. You could try moving somewhere that's less covid obsessed, but that doesn't necessarily free you from the covid regime (most ski areas have mask requirements, even if it's not mandated by government), and if you move somewhere you wouldn't have otherwise gone, then you're still letting covid disrupt your life. It's really a lose lose situation for those who want to move on.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> SARS-CoV-2 is the official name of the novel coronavirus that started infecting humans in late 2019. .. the disease caused by that coronavirus and its variants is called COVID-19.


Yup


MarzNC said:


> Someone who tests positive for the evidence of SARS-CoV-2 in their system is a "detected case" but someone who goes undetected for whatever reason still had/has COVID-19.


Nope.


----------



## Country Gun

Warp daddy said:


> Its very very difficult , drs have banded togerther and written letters BEGGING people to get vaxxed . Think about when THIS has ever happened ????
> 
> This county ONLY has 59 per cent vaxx rate and mirrors other rural counties where it is raging . Frankly money is no longer an incentive to staff who are toasted from the unrelenting stress of carrying for patients who fail to do the right thing , SOME for a second time around .
> 
> Will stop here before this gets LOCKED too


 Many Doctors do not believe in this Vaccine .There are places in NYS, the Doc will shoot it down the drain, if you pay him 1500 smackers. Covid is here to stay. Your Vac status will not keep you from getting the virus, your chances of survival are now far greater now than in March 2021. Thats all I will say, Happy New Year


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> I’m fine. I use essential oils and sage my home regularly.


I didn't realize you're an engineer too


----------



## Campgottagopee

Country Gun said:


> Many Doctors do not believe in this Vaccine .There are places in NYS, the Doc will shoot it down the drain, if you pay him 1500 smackers. Covid is here to stay. Your Vac status will not keep you from getting the virus, your chances of survival are now far greater now than in March 2021. Thats all I will say, Happy New Year


Must be those doctors don't work in hospitals where they actually care for those with COVID.
That's all I will say, Happy New Beer.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> Must be those doctors don't work in hospitals where they actually care for those with COVID.
> That's all I will say, Happy New Beer.


I read about those docs on the internets.

Bigfoot is real too.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> Bigfoot is real too.


Damn straight he is!


----------



## Harvey

Every thread remotely connected to covid becomes the covid thread. I guess it's human nature, we want to talk about what is on our mind. Hey I'm human too. I still consider locking this or moving to the OT, TBD.

Last June AMA estimated 40,000 docs were unvaccinated nationwide, about 4% of a million active. Fair to assume that that number matches up with doctors who don't believe in the vaccine? No idea. From what I've read the healthcare workers who are most resistant to the vax are not doctors. 

I've had my shots, and none were administered by a doctor. Pretty sure all were nurses. If I was a doc, I don't think I'd risk the fines and my medical license to commit vax fraud, but I guess they must feel it's unlikely to be caught or prosecuted. 

I agree with Gunny that my chances of survival now are much higher than they were a year ago, when I got covid. That's not based on science really just my experience. I was so careful before I got vaxed and still got (really) sick. I went to a 7 hour gymnastics meet a few weeks ago with a thousand unmasked and nary a sniffle. Not a scientific study, but seems like something, to me.


----------



## snoloco

It's hard to avoid covid discussion when it's being allowed to control literally every aspect of life.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> It's hard to avoid covid discussion when it's being allowed to control literally every aspect of life.



Agreed. I could have locked the thread from the start though.

Some forums are locking any thread with the words mask or vaccine.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Every thread remotely connected to covid becomes the covid thread.


It’s in CAPS in the title of this one, Just sayin.


----------



## Low Angle Life

The anecdotal evidence I have and little research I've done via Dr. John Campbell on YT have for the most part been lining up. Lots of triple jabbed friends in their late 20's and early 30's testing positive in the past 2 weeks, most with mild symptoms some asymptomatic, others out with 104 fevers. I know one individual who has now tested positive for Covid on four separate instances since the start of this mess at least one of those cases was after being boosted. I'm hopefully that this last variant is the shift from pandemic to endemic, I don't think we are out of the woods but I like to believe we are through the worst.

Also if you look at current case data from countries like Denmark that are highly vaccinated (77.9% 2nd shot, 47% on 3rd) it's clear vaccines are not going to be what saves us. At this point its immunity that everyone needs whether natural through infection, through vaccine, or some combination of both. Again I'm not here it discuss approach for curbing this thing, just stating my experiences and what I've learned over time. 

Now LOCK'ER DOWN .


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> Must be those doctors don't work in hospitals where they actually care for those with COVID.
> That's all I will say, Happy New Beer.


Indeed the internet "quack factor ". Dr Google has deep meaning for some ?


----------



## MarzNC

Low Angle Life said:


> At this point its immunity that everyone needs whether natural through infection, through vaccine, or some combination of both.


Current vaccines were never designed to prevent infection. The clinical trials done in 2020 for the currently approved vaccines showed that the likelihood of serious illness and death was much, much less than compared to people who were unvaccinated as the original version spread in multiple countries. The efficacy was much better than the minimum requirement for regulatory approval for any vaccine.

Ironically, the locations that had low vaccination rates when Delta arrived in June 2021 probably have much higher numbers of people with natural immunity. Vermont tried travel restrictions last winter and relied on vaccination alone as the protective measure by May 2021. Delta changed the situation by July 2021 when it became obvious that breakthrough cases with mild symptoms could happen in group situations. Omicron started changing the situation worldwide by early November, but it just wasn't recognized yet.

Masking and distancing works to reduce risk of exposure to an infectious disease. There is a reason that there were far fewer cases of the flu last winter.


----------



## Harvey

In some ways it seems like the fact that the vax actually prevented transmission of Alpha is now working against the effort to get vax buyin. It provides purchase for the idea that it doesn't work.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> In some ways it seems like the fact that the vax actually prevented transmission of Alpha is now working against the effort to get vax buyin. It provides purchase for the idea that it doesn't work.


Vaccination never prevented transmission in my opinion. It only seemed that way because initially the people who got vaccinated tended to be cautious and/or informed people who did other things to avoid exposure. It was masking, distancing, curfews, capacity limits and other public health measures that made a difference in 2020 and the first half of 2021.

People will continue to believe that vaccination that doesn't prevent getting a disease is somehow a failure. The percentage of people who got flu shots pre-pandemic was well below 50% in many counties. I'm sure people who didn't get a flu shot tell stories of friends or co-workers who got a flu shot and still got the flu. I would guess that some of those people also don't think people die from the flu.

What remains confusing about COVID-19 is that people who have no symptoms or mild symptoms are contagious and can infect others, even people who are vaccinated. This novel coronavirus really doesn't act like any other disease that has caused a pandemic in the last couple hundred years.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Vaccination never prevented transmission


Then that was an even bigger messaging fail.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Then that was an even bigger messaging fail.


Guess you weren't listening or reading what Dr. Fauci was saying from the start. The idea that breakthrough cases were expected was stated all along. Even 90% efficacy in a clinical trial with 30,000 people (half given the vaccine) is not the same as full prevention of COVID-19.

Few people understand vaccines. Or that there are different types of infectious diseases. That's not going to change any time soon.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Guess you weren't listening or reading what Dr. Fauci was saying from the start.


I'll own it. Still I'm not the only one.

Maybe this is what confused me:

"....a growing body of evidence suggests that COVID-19 vaccines also reduce asymptomatic infection and transmission."


----------



## Andy_ROC

MarzNC said:


> Guess you weren't listening or reading what Dr. Fauci was saying from the start. The idea that breakthrough cases were expected was stated all along. Even 90% efficacy in a clinical trial with 30,000 people (half given the vaccine) is not the same as full prevention of COVID-19.
> 
> Few people understand vaccines. Or that there are different types of infectious diseases. That's not going to change any time soon.


This^^^ What I've also found is that far fewer people than I thought possible understand basic statistics, let alone vaccines.

PS I'm not referring to anyone in this thread. I'm just Generally speaking based on some comments i see in YouTube and opinion based media.


----------



## Warp daddy

MarzNC said:


> Guess you weren't listening or reading what Dr. Fauci was saying from the start. The idea that breakthrough cases were expected was stated all along. Even 90% efficacy in a clinical trial with 30,000 people (half given the vaccine) is not the same as full prevention of COVID-19.
> 
> Few people understand vaccines. Or that there are different types of infectious diseases. That's not going to change any time soon.


TRUTH ! Especially the first 3 words of your last paragraph .


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> I'll own it. Still I'm not the only one.
> 
> Maybe this is what confused me:
> 
> "....a growing body of evidence suggests that COVID-19 vaccines also reduce asymptomatic infection and transmission."


Right but it doesn't mean it won't happen. Also a vaxed person is over the illness much faster and therefore is contagious for a shorter period.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> Right but it doesn't mean it won't happen. Also a vaxed person is over the illness much faster and therefore is contagious for a shorter period.


What's confusing people now is the reduction in CDC recommendations about self-quarantine or isolation after a positive test or likely exposure. Used to be 10-14 days (can't remember when it went from 14 to 10). Now down to 5 days officially but even shorter for vaccinated folks in some jurisdictions or industries. That's based on evidence that someone who is vaccinated is no longer contagious after 2-3 days. By the time they test positive, probably already on the downside of the infection. Especially if they no longer have any symptoms.

The reason for pushing boosters is that someone who is boosted will have quicker response by protective antibodies as soon as the body detects SARS-CoV-2. Someone who is fully vaccinated but not boosted will have T-cells/B-cells that generate new relevant antibodies so they are very unlikely to get seriously ill but may have COVID-19 for a bit longer. Antibodies aren't designed to last a long time. When they aren't needed, no more are produced and the ones that are around naturally die off. All cells die and are replaced as needed. I learned that when researching bone density several years ago. Remember, I'm not a medical professional. Just a statistician with a background in clinical trials research who knows how to research a medical topic online from assorted sources.


----------



## MarzNC

Low snow because of warm weather, pent up demand for a holiday season after a pandemic season, staffing issues for all seasonal jobs . . . mix in Omicron where masking isn't required or even strongly recommended . . . makes for a mess.

What I'm paying more attention to is how things are going at ski resorts for MLK weekend. Even without a pandemic, I expect a mess in late December. It really still is early season.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I'll own it. Still I'm not the only one.
> 
> Maybe this is what confused me:
> 
> "....a growing body of evidence suggests that COVID-19 vaccines also reduce asymptomatic infection and transmission."


Not really trying to pick on you. The majority of people don't really understand what makes COVID-19 and the associated vaccines different from anything even developed with modern clinical trials methods.a

Trying to keep up with the ever-changing knowledge about COVID-19 is virtually impossible. I don't even try any more. Doing some research once or twice a month is better then daily.


----------



## Andy_ROC

MarzNC said:


> What's confusing people now is the reduction in CDC recommendations about self-quarantine or isolation after a positive test or likely exposure. Used to be 10-14 days (can't remember when it went from 14 to 10). Now down to 5 days officially but even shorter for vaccinated folks in some jurisdictions or industries. That's based on evidence that someone who is vaccinated is no longer contagious after 2-3 days. By the time they test positive, probably already on the downside of the infection. Especially if they no longer have any symptoms.
> 
> The reason for pushing boosters is that someone who is boosted will have quicker response by protective antibodies as soon as the body detects SARS-CoV-2. Someone who is fully vaccinated but not boosted will have T-cells/B-cells that generate new relevant antibodies so they are very unlikely to get seriously ill but may have COVID-19 for a bit longer. Antibodies aren't designed to last a long time. When they aren't needed, no more are produced and the ones that are around naturally die off. All cells die and are replaced as needed. I learned that when researching bone density several years ago. Remember, I'm not a medical professional. Just a statistician with a background in clinical trials research who knows how to research a medical topic online from assorted sources.


Oh you're a stats guy! I enjoyed stats I learned in engineering school and during my MBA. Used it in manufacturing for a few years till I moved on. I remember getting the PC based version of Minitab and was so excited. Yeah I'm a bit of a dork


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Guess you weren't listening or reading what Dr. Fauci was saying from the start. The idea that breakthrough cases were expected was stated all along.


Some folks said something awhile back. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476249496736522246


----------



## Harvey

I understand how a vaccine works and what it is supposed to do.

I'd never heard about a vaccine inhibiting spread before covid. The way I interpreted it was that it wasn't designed or expected, but was a result. And I never thought it was absolute, as in zero breakthrough.

If I am the only one in America who thought that, then I guess I'm not too bright.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> It's hard to avoid covid discussion when it's being allowed to control literally every aspect of life.


Every aspect of life ??!!! What a drama queen. What about COVID is controlling you?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Then that was an even bigger messaging fail.


That's the way I always understood it. I just knew in increased your chances of living if you contracted COVID 19.
That said, I had COVID before I get as vaxed and I just thought I had a cold. Even after experiencing mild symptoms I wasn't willing to roll the dice again, so I got me all 3 shots.


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> Some folks said something awhile back.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476249496736522246


Then along came Delta.

Aug 2021.​


tirolski said:


> Some folks said something awhile back.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476249496736522246


Well that was pre delta. Delta changed a lot of things.


----------



## wonderpony

You know, it's just a weird world we are living in at the moment. I guess we all choose how to deal with it. If I were to be stuck on my property for five days, I could definitely use the time to deep clean my house. There are some outside things that could be done as well.

That seems like a super waste of time, though. I get bored after one rainy day.

I will mask up in the lift line and call it good.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> Oh you're a stats guy! I enjoyed stats I learned in engineering school and during my MBA. Used it in manufacturing for a few years till I moved on. I remember getting the PC based version of Minitab and was so excited. Yeah I'm a bit of a dork


Ah, you missed my self-intro in the COVID thread in the fall. I'm a retired Ph.D. biostatician and SAS programmer. Worked in the pharma industry doing data management and project management for clinical trials. I was doing statistical analysis using PL/I and SPSS on a mainframe as a part-time job in college. First computer programming was using paper tape in high school . . . to generate a log table overnight. Was a tomboy and never cared that I was one of only a few girls in most of my college math classes.


----------



## MarzNC

wonderpony said:


> I will mask up in the lift line and call it good.




I took my daughter (college senior) and her BF ice skating this afternoon. Masks required in a small town in North Carolina. Only saw two tween boys without masks. I'm not worried about exposure. Staying home makes little sense to me.

Was BF's first time on ice skates. He did pretty well all things considered. We still have hopes that he'll like skiing. He had the first taste at Big SNOW in July.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC 
I appreciate hearing you sharing your thoughts vs stats too.


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> MarzNC
> I appreciate hearing you sharing your thoughts vs stats too.


Indeed MARZ brings a wealth of insight to table , her analysis is incredibly helpful ! ???? thanks Doc !


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Were you one of my students too? Most of them tried to guess everything too.
> 
> mm


Nothing wrong with that.
The multiple guess tests were easier except when they threw in the:
none of the above 
a and b
a, b and c
and none of the above bullshit.
Otherwise it was always just best guess.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> The multiple guess tests were easier except ...


Not in engineering school, and never in my classroom.

mm


----------



## raisingarizona




----------



## Harvey

Sorry I realized I said I would unlock this thread, apparently I forgot.

Can anyone help me find a chart or graphic that illuminates the timeline line, for the rise and fall of omicron?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Can anyone help me find a chart or graphic


Where's MC when you need him!!!! LOL


----------



## Harvey

True I should have tagged @MC2


----------



## Low Angle Life

raisingarizona said:


> View attachment 11811


These past three years really have felt like ground hogs day. I moved into a new apartment in November of 2019, pretty much every association I now have with this place is WFH quarantine life. I think I'll need to move to break the cycle of feeling like I'm still in quarantine.


----------



## Brownski

ugh
hope you're able to shake it off at some point


----------



## raisingarizona

It’s a different world now than 2019. It’s all very weird.

Cody’s friends are all + right now. She and I have had plenty of contact with the group. We did a home test two days ago and one this morning, both negative. I’m pretty sure the home tests are shit. Some show + results after three days, some it takes 14. Am I supposed to put the breaks on life and responsibilities? I’m feeling confused on what is expected or what I should do. Cody’s school has gone back to their strict attendance policies which is putting pressure on families to keep kids in school but is likely helping the spread. Ugh.


----------



## tirolski

Low Angle Life said:


> These past three years really have felt like ground hogs day.


Last golf season I got into Groundhog Day score-wise.. 
Same score for weeks on end. 
Good holes and bad holes changed but the tally at the end was the same.
Had fun playin and walkin.


----------



## Low Angle Life

raisingarizona said:


> It’s a different world now than 2019. It’s all very weird.
> 
> Cody’s friends are all + right now. She and I have had plenty of contact with the group. We did a home test two days ago and one this morning, both negative. I’m pretty sure the home tests are shit. Some show + results after three days, some it takes 14. Am I supposed to put the breaks on life and responsibilities? I’m feeling confused on what is expected or what I should do. Cody’s school has gone back to their strict attendance policies which is putting pressure on families to keep kids in school but is likely helping the spread. Ugh.


Home tests are shit, maybe better than nothing but they tend to show significantly more false positives compared to PCR in my experience. Kids gotta go back to school, in person learning is really important for development, that said under the current case load the whole experience is pretty traumatizing for kids. I really feel for this generation currently in school, the impact of all of this on their mental health can not be understated.

All that said there are ways to keep safe in school, my lady teaches multiple disability 6-8 year olds. Kids that in many cases can't resist pulling their masks off from time to time. She had long term exposure to a student who tested positive before the holidays. Her unwavering use of K-N95 with cloth mask on top is likely what kept her from getting it. Masks really do work, and K-N95 seems to be the gold standard. If there is a mask mandate in place, the most likely place for someone to contract Covid while in school is in the lunch room. It's actually remarkable that they haven't been able to trace any major outbreaks back to the school where my lady works.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Can anyone help me find a chart or graphic that illuminates the timeline line, for the rise and fall of omicron?


Too soon for the "fall" part for Omicron in the USA. I'll post some graphs later today.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> It’s a different world now than 2019. It’s all very weird.
> 
> Cody’s friends are all + right now. She and I have had plenty of contact with the group. We did a home test two days ago and one this morning, both negative. I’m pretty sure the home tests are shit. Some show + results after three days, some it takes 14. Am I supposed to put the breaks on life and responsibilities? I’m feeling confused on what is expected or what I should do. Cody’s school has gone back to their strict attendance policies which is putting pressure on families to keep kids in school but is likely helping the spread. Ugh.


Testing is not 100%. Neither is vaccination. But have uses for avoiding serious illness.

Kids are going to get Omicron, if they haven't already had Delta (may not even know it). Seniors are mostly fully vaccinated. So not as much worry that kids will infect seniors they know personally. Unfortunately many unvaccinated seniors have already passed during the 2020 and 2021 surges. However, that means fewer seniors are unvaccinated and at high risk if they get COVID-19. Higher risk in places where Delta is still pretty common, which seems to be the case in New England and Canada.

Omicron is more contagious but less likely to get into the lungs, even for unvaccinated people who have enough sense to seek medical care soon enough when they have noticeable symptoms. In short, lock downs or virtual classes for a lengthy period (more than a few weeks) don't make sense any more. If they ever did.

I'm taking the same precautions for 2021-22 ski season travel as I did for the previous one. Distancing and masking work as well for COVID-19 as it does for seasonal flu. There is apparently are a lot more flu cases already than last winter. Around my neighborhood, masking is common in the supermarket. No longer required at my fitness center and I'm not one of the few who still mask.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> There is apparently are a lot more flu cases already than last winter


What's ironic is I've never had a flu shot until this year. Got both my flu and booster shot the same day, in the same arm. I felt that one....lol


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Too soon for the "fall" part for Omicron in the USA. I'll post some graphs later today.



I was thinking South Africa or some other place.


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> It’s a different world now than 2019. It’s all very weird.
> 
> Cody’s friends are all + right now. She and I have had plenty of contact with the group. We did a home test two days ago and one this morning, both negative. I’m pretty sure the home tests are shit. Some show + results after three days, some it takes 14. Am I supposed to put the breaks on life and responsibilities? I’m feeling confused on what is expected or what I should do. Cody’s school has gone back to their strict attendance policies which is putting pressure on families to keep kids in school but is likely helping the spread. Ugh.


I hear you. I'm a major germaphobe (have been for at least 30 years). But at this point I feel that my family and I are protected as best as possible--- vaxed/boosted, eating well, exercising and taking vitamins to support the immunity system. Will continue wearing masks as required and even when not required. Heck l may never fly again without a mask because I don't even want a stupid cold!

But what I'm about to say may upset some people--- If I test positive and don't feel anymore than a mild cold then I'm seriously contemplating not reporting and continuing to go about my life as normal as possible--- meaning I'll restrict myself no more than if I had a cold. Avoid close contact with friends, family and co-workers. But beyond that I'm not quarantining. Those at greatest risk are the stubbornly unvaxed and frankly they've made their choice and need to live with the consequences. 

--- Sorry Harv, if this is too controversial please feel free to delete and I won't be upset.


----------



## raisingarizona

I think I’m in this line of thinking now.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> But what I'm about to say may upset some people--- If I test positive and don't feel anymore than a mild cold then I'm seriously contemplating not reporting and continuing to go about my life as normal as possible--- meaning I'll restrict myself no more than if I had a cold. Avoid close contact with friends, family and co-workers. But beyond that I'm not quarantining.


The likelihood that people who are testing positive doing an at-home rapid test AND reporting to a public health authority is probably less than 20% (80-20 rule).

The new CDC guideline for a positive test is to isolate for 5 days, and then mask diligently for 5 days. Meaning assuming no longer any symptoms or symptoms are lessening noticeably, then don't bother to test again. Someone who is vaccinated is probably not infectious 2-3 days after they start an infection. By the time minor symptoms are noticeable, probably anti-bodies are on the prowl dealing with slowing down SARS-CoV-2 replication in the body.

I had minor symptoms the week after I got back from Colorado. My husband seemed to have cold symptoms that started before I got back. Neither of us bothered to get tested. We looked around for rapid tests but couldn't find any. Didn't bother to sign up for a county appointment or wait in line for an hour or more at the free no-appointment lab near our house. Symptoms were gone in less than a week.

Was it Omicron? Perhaps but probably not. All I had was a slight runny nose. No other symptoms. Husband had a cough but very intermittent.

EDIT: we have both had 3 shots. I got a booster (lower dose) of Moderna just before driving to Colorado. He had a third shot of Pfizer months ago because he's in a high risk category. Daughter and SO had boosters before I did because they had second shots early while working in health care the first half of 2021.


----------



## MarzNC

From The NY Times today. More and more hospitals are finding that even with rising numbers of patients, there are fewer who need to be in the ICU, or if they do they don't need ventilation or stay as long. Omicron doesn't get into the lungs as easily as Delta and earlier identified variants.

Looking at detected case numbers or Percent Positive isn't all that useful, except to confirm that Omicron is in a given country/county/city even without any data from genomic sequencing or the results from particular PCR tests that can detect the difference is the S-spike. In NC Percent Positive is over 20% and still going up. But in my county the percentage of patients in ICU is as low as it was before Delta or after the Delta surge ended in the fall.


----------



## MarzNC

A couple articles about South Africa. Omicron probably started spreading there by early Nov 2021, if not some time the month before. Was in the neighboring countries in Southern Africa around the same time. My guess is that Omicron made it to Europe by early November as well based on increasing detected cases by mid-Nov with no other alternative explanation.

If you want to check out data for a few countries, I like to use the Data Explorer of Our World in Data. Best to start around Oct. 1, 2021 and only pick countries in the same region that have about the same population. Comparing the USA with 330 million to Belgium or Iceland isn't very useful.









COVID-19 Data Explorer


Research and data to make progress against the world’s largest problems




ourworldindata.org





January 5, 2022








Omicron may have peaked or 'plateaued' in parts of the world, giving experts cause for optimism


There are early, tentative signs that the omicron wave has peaked, or is plateauing, in the places that were among the first to be hit hard by the variant.




www.cnbc.com





December 31, 2021








As omicron heats up in the U.S., South Africa says its wave is on the way out


The variant caused fewer deaths and less severe infections than past versions of the virus in South Africa, but that could be different in other countries.




www.npr.org


----------



## MarzNC

A perspective from NYC.

December 20, 2021 








New York City Hospitals Aren't Overwhelmed by the Omicron Covid Wave -- But the Rest of the Country Might Not Be So Lucky


Though positivity rates are skyrocketing, high vaccination rates seem to be keeping the city’s ERs steady




www.rollingstone.com


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> Sorry I realized I said I would unlock this thread, apparently I forgot.
> 
> Can anyone help me find a chart or graphic that illuminates the timeline line, for the rise and fall of omicron?


forward.ny.gov shows the picture of Covid in a shocking and amazing fashion. Metro NY has been 2-4 weeks ahead of the rest of the country each waive.


----------



## DomB

Here's the link: 









Positive Tests Over Time, by Region and County


Tests and positive cases by day




coronavirus.health.ny.gov


----------



## Harvey

DomB said:


> Here's the link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Positive Tests Over Time, by Region and County
> 
> 
> Tests and positive cases by day
> 
> 
> 
> 
> coronavirus.health.ny.gov



Looking for something from another country where omicron is declining.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> What's ironic is I've never had a flu shot until this year. Got both my flu and booster shot the same day, in the same arm. I felt that one....lol


I did the same thing, but 1 shot in each arm.


----------



## Sbob

My mother in-law had 10 kids, when one got the chickenpox she had them all play together to get it over with. 

Seems like that’s what’s happening now , maybe the powers that be thinks since Omicron isn’t as deadly, get it over with?


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Omicron may have peaked or 'plateaued' in parts of the world, giving experts cause for optimism
> 
> 
> There are early, tentative signs that the omicron wave has peaked, or is plateauing, in the places that were among the first to be hit hard by the variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



Here it is for South Africa, looks like 2-3 weeks up and 2-3 weeks down:


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Looking for something from another country where omicron is declining.


As marz said South Africa was hit earlier with omicron. It’s Southern Hemisphere and 1st reports 24NOV21 so MMV.
Cases declining rapidly now.
Deaths are lagging.








Tracking Coronavirus in South Africa: Latest Case Count


See the latest charts of coronavirus cases, deaths and vaccinations in South Africa.



www.nytimes.com


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Here it is for South Africa, looks like 2-3 weeks up and 2-3 weeks down:


Keep in mind that as Omicron pushed out Delta, there were detected cases from both. What's impossible to know is how fast community spread of Omicron was really happening because there were probably more undetected cases. Seems clear that more people with Omicron have no symptoms or mild symptoms, even if they are not vaccinated.

People who have serious illness due to COVID-19 can be in big trouble. But they are a minority for any variant. The number of people who should be listed as "recovered" is greater than the number of people who were hospitalized around the world.


----------



## MarzNC

It really helps to limit the timeframe for any graph. Here is a look at South Africa and a few of the other African countries that were in travel bans imposed right after Omicron was identified and declared a Variant of Concern by WHO in late November 2021.

Even though looking at normalized data per million is a good idea for comparison, also should be aware of the population involved. South Africa is 60 million, Mozambique 32 million, Zimbabwe 19 million, and Namibia only about 3 million. I had Botswana in the graph at first but with only 3 million people the trend is not as useful. My impression is that the healthcare system of South Africa is the most developed. It's one of the best countries when it comes to genomic sequencing.

When I compare stats for US states I try to stick to the same region and about the same population. Comparing VT to NY is useless. Comparing FL with AL isn't any better. Comparing FL to NE is silly.

Remember the talk about "exponential growth" back in early 2020? Think about what happens when the timeframe for passing on COVID-19 is compressed. Doubling every 1-2 days leads to big numbers very, very quickly. It did in Italy and NYC in Feb-Apr 2020. It's happening again with Omicron. But the situation is very different in terms of immunity from both vaccination and recovery from COVID-19 in the last 12-18 months.


----------



## MarzNC

For those who read NY Times articles . . .

January 5, 2022








Omicron Is Milder


How should that affect your behavior?




www.nytimes.com





December 31, 2021








Studies Suggest Why Omicron Is Less Severe: It Spares the Lungs


Compared with earlier variants, Omicron may cause less damage to the lungs, new animal research suggests.




www.nytimes.com





December 28, 2021








Omicron Variant Might Help Defend Against Delta, Lab Study Suggests


In the lab, antibodies produced during an Omicron infection protected against Delta. If Omicron dominates in the real world, that could lead to a less dire future.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## MarzNC

A look at the variation on how well a sample of countries deal with genomic sequencing. It's a relatively new feature on Our World In Data. The CDC info about variants by state are based on samples made available by individual states. There is enough info to come up with an educated guess for the country as a whole. But certainly not as accurate as what Denmark can do for their population.

My guess is the Germany has had Omicron for a while. They are strong trading partners with South Africa. Germany doesn't do much with genomic testing.


----------



## CNY Skier

Wow, kudos to Harvey for keeping these threads open! Free exchange of ideas is the best way to discover the truth; funny how "big tech" (Twitter, FB, YT, etc.) are hell bent on denying any claim that perhaps the vaccines may not be as useful as once thought.

What I've learned through all of this is that most of those who have chosen to take the shots, freely or otherwise, will defend their decision to the bitter end. For them, it's a horrifying thought that they may have been sold a bill of goods or worse, that there may be long term consequences for their decisions. As I always say, to each his/her own. I respect your choice; please respect mine. (Actually, I don't care if you respect my choice, just leave me alone.)

What bothers me is the logical contortions that the "pro-vaxxers" have to make to convince themselves that they are right.
1) The original trial results claimed "~95% efficacy" for _not contracting covid. _What most people didn't realize that they were referring to "relative" efficacy. If you look at "absolute" efficacy, it's more like 0.8%.
2) A vaccine should protect you from contracting a disease. Clearly this isn't the case with the covid shot. 
3) The common mantra "I was vaxxed and still contracted Covid but thankfully my symptoms are mild" isn't scientific. Most Covid cases are mild if you do not have comorbidities and are otherwise healthy.

Then there is the mask issue. The CDC and even our local doctors here in Syracuse are now saying that a cloth mask is useless and you should wear a surgical or N95 mask. No kidding, except for the fact that a surgical mask is also useless and an N95 mask, unless properly fitted, is also nearly useless. Breathing requires air flow, period.

Anyway, let's hope it starts snowing here in the NE so we can forget about all of this crap and do some skiing. It's the one thing we all love and a couple of large snow storms will relegate this conversation to the dust heap.


----------



## MarzNC

Found stats for breakthrough cases in NY. Assuming Omicron is the becoming the dominant variant starting some time in November, seems pretty clear that vaccination is helpful in terms of having fewer detected cases. May well be more undetected cases among vaccinated people, but not sure that matters too much. Would be better if anyone who is infectious knew they had COVID-19 so that they would avoid infecting others. But all along there have been people who haven't known they had COVID-19 because they didn't have noticeable symptoms.

The point of this graph is to see if there is support for the idea that vaccination is helpful against Omicron, as well as Delta and earlier variants.






						COVID-19 Breakthrough Data
					

Cases and hospitalizations by vaccination status




					coronavirus.health.ny.gov


----------



## Harvey

CNY Skier said:


> Anyway, let's hope it starts snowing here in the NE so we can forget about all of this crap and do some skiing.


Dude you have 36 posts and 34 of them are in the coronavirus thread.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Dude you have 36 posts and 34 of them are in the coronavirus thread.


Ya keep stats on us all Harvey?


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> Wow, kudos to Harvey for keeping these threads open! Free exchange of ideas is the best way to discover the truth; funny how "big tech" (Twitter, FB, YT, etc.) are hell bent on denying any claim that perhaps the vaccines may not be as useful as once thought.
> 
> What I've learned through all of this is that most of those who have chosen to take the shots, freely or otherwise, will defend their decision to the bitter end. For them, it's a horrifying thought that they may have been sold a bill of goods or worse, that there may be long term consequences for their decisions. As I always say, to each his/her own. I respect your choice; please respect mine. (Actually, I don't care if you respect my choice, just leave me alone.)
> 
> What bothers me is the logical contortions that the "pro-vaxxers" have to make to convince themselves that they are right.
> 1) The original trial results claimed "~95% efficacy" for _not contracting covid. _What most people didn't realize that they were referring to "relative" efficacy. If you look at "absolute" efficacy, it's more like 0.8%.
> 2) A vaccine should protect you from contracting a disease. Clearly this isn't the case with the covid shot.
> 3) The common mantra "I was vaxxed and still contracted Covid but thankfully my symptoms are mild" isn't scientific. Most Covid cases are mild if you do not have comorbidities and are otherwise healthy.
> 
> Then there is the mask issue. The CDC and even our local doctors here in Syracuse are now saying that a cloth mask is useless and you should wear a surgical or N95 mask. No kidding, except for the fact that a surgical mask is also useless and an N95 mask, unless properly fitted, is also nearly useless. Breathing requires air flow, period.
> 
> Anyway, let's hope it starts snowing here in the NE so we can forget about all of this crap and do some skiing. It's the one thing we all love and a couple of large snow storms will relegate this conversation to the dust heap.


Wow is right. You don't need to defend your choice of not being vaxed, not sure why you feel as though you do. 
Engineers pretending to be medical doctors are hard to take seriously.


----------



## Tjf1967

CNY Skier said:


> Wow, kudos to Harvey for keeping these threads open! Free exchange of ideas is the best way to discover the truth; funny how "big tech" (Twitter, FB, YT, etc.) are hell bent on denying any claim that perhaps the vaccines may not be as useful as once thought.
> 
> What I've learned through all of this is that most of those who have chosen to take the shots, freely or otherwise, will defend their decision to the bitter end. For them, it's a horrifying thought that they may have been sold a bill of goods or worse, that there may be long term consequences for their decisions. As I always say, to each his/her own. I respect your choice; please respect mine. (Actually, I don't care if you respect my choice, just leave me alone.)
> 
> What bothers me is the logical contortions that the "pro-vaxxers" have to make to convince themselves that they are right.
> 1) The original trial results claimed "~95% efficacy" for _not contracting covid. _What most people didn't realize that they were referring to "relative" efficacy. If you look at "absolute" efficacy, it's more like 0.8%.
> 2) A vaccine should protect you from contracting a disease. Clearly this isn't the case with the covid shot.
> 3) The common mantra "I was vaxxed and still contracted Covid but thankfully my symptoms are mild" isn't scientific. Most Covid cases are mild if you do not have comorbidities and are otherwise healthy.
> 
> Then there is the mask issue. The CDC and even our local doctors here in Syracuse are now saying that a cloth mask is useless and you should wear a surgical or N95 mask. No kidding, except for the fact that a surgical mask is also useless and an N95 mask, unless properly fitted, is also nearly useless. Breathing requires air flow, period.
> 
> Anyway, let's hope it starts snowing here in the NE so we can forget about all of this crap and do some skiing. It's the one thing we all love and a couple of large snow storms will relegate this conversation to the dust heap.


When they said the 95.5 if you listened they avoided saying that it was against catching the disease. They never outright set the media straight when they assumed that's what we what they were referring to. However anyone that was listening could test through the lines and understand what they were saying. You are outright wrong about masks, they do work. Problem is people don't wear them properly. 
I don't care what you do, stay out of my personal space and we won't have a problem.


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

CNY Skier said:


> Wow, kudos to Harvey for keeping these threads open! Free exchange of ideas is the best way to discover the truth; funny how "big tech" (Twitter, FB, YT, etc.) are hell bent on denying any claim that perhaps the vaccines may not be as useful as once thought.
> 
> What I've learned through all of this is that most of those who have chosen to take the shots, freely or otherwise, will defend their decision to the bitter end. For them, it's a horrifying thought that they may have been sold a bill of goods or worse, that there may be long term consequences for their decisions. As I always say, to each his/her own. I respect your choice; please respect mine. (Actually, I don't care if you respect my choice, just leave me alone.)
> 
> What bothers me is the logical contortions that the "pro-vaxxers" have to make to convince themselves that they are right.
> 1) The original trial results claimed "~95% efficacy" for _not contracting covid. _What most people didn't realize that they were referring to "relative" efficacy. If you look at "absolute" efficacy, it's more like 0.8%.
> 2) A vaccine should protect you from contracting a disease. Clearly this isn't the case with the covid shot.
> 3) The common mantra "I was vaxxed and still contracted Covid but thankfully my symptoms are mild" isn't scientific. Most Covid cases are mild if you do not have comorbidities and are otherwise healthy.
> 
> Then there is the mask issue. The CDC and even our local doctors here in Syracuse are now saying that a cloth mask is useless and you should wear a surgical or N95 mask. No kidding, except for the fact that a surgical mask is also useless and an N95 mask, unless properly fitted, is also nearly useless. Breathing requires air flow, period.
> 
> Anyway, let's hope it starts snowing here in the NE so we can forget about all of this crap and do some skiing. It's the one thing we all love and a couple of large snow storms will relegate this conversation to the dust heap.


This is why hundreds of thousands of people are needlessly dead and why hundreds of thousands more will die needlessly.


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> Ya keep stats on us all Harvey?


Even if not actively, it is a click away. That's the way of the world nowadays. This and a Rivian forum are my only social media footprints, but I can guarantee you that Facebook has a file on me that would be hundreds of pages long if printed just from my wife or family saying something related to me or posting a picture . . . . 

Wait, is thread drift good in a Covid thread? Sounds like a twisted koan.


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> Ya keep stats on us all Harvey?


Yes and it's really devious. I click on your screenname...





and then click on your number of messages (2,230) and they all come up. Try it it's fun. ?

When you have 2000 posts it's not exactly easy to see trends. But when you have 39 posts, it's not hard.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> This is why hundreds of thousands of people are needlessly dead and why hundreds of thousands more will die needlessly.


Reality
The text I just got from my wife is also reality:
Me, sissy (my SIL) and an LPN for 21 patients and 2 admissions in the wings. Healthcare is still struggling.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Reality
> The text I just got from my wife is also reality:
> Me, sissy (my SIL) and an LPN for 21 patients and 2 admissions in the wings. Healthcare is still struggling.


Sorry Camp. Sending positive vibes.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> Reality
> The text I just got from my wife is also reality:
> Me, sissy (my SIL) and an LPN for 21 patients and 2 admissions in the wings. Healthcare is still struggling.


No it's just a conspiracy and they're lying. Alex Jones and those of similar ilk have told me so. I listen to AM radio political talk all day, so I know what I'm talking about!


----------



## MarzNC

Happened to come across this webpage about the development of the currently approved vaccines for COVID-19 looking for something else. In general the Nebraska Medicine website has good info that's easy to read. While there is lots of info on the CDC website, it can be hard to find and digest.

Read somewhere that Novavax hopes to submit the initial formal paperwork for approval to the FDA in January 2022. The clinical trials were completed in late 2021. The delay for submitting an application for review has been on the manufacturing side. In general, figuring out how to ramp up production has taken longer than expected. The approach taken by Novavax is more traditional than the mRNA approach (active research for multiple indications for over a decade).









Were the COVID-19 vaccines rushed? Here's how the vaccines were developed so fast


Real talk: These new COVID-19 vaccines were created in record time. Some people are skeptical that the vaccines didn’t go through the normal approval process or that manufacturers cut corners. Find out how the vaccines were developed so quickly.




www.nebraskamed.com













COVID-19 vaccine frequently asked questions | Nebraska Medicine Omaha, NE


We are collecting and answering common COVID-19 questions here. This list will continue to evolve as we learn more.




www.nebraskamed.com


----------



## Harvey

OK Andy let it go.



MarzNC said:


> Read somewhere that Novavax hopes to submit the initial formal paperwork for approval to the FDA in January 2022. The clinical trials were completed in late 2021. The delay for submitting an application for review has been on the manufacturing side. In general, figuring out how to ramp up production has taken longer than expected. The approach taken by Novavax is more traditional than the mRNA approach (active research for multiple indications for over a decade).



I read that Novavax is much much cheaper per dose, and may help the poorer countries get vaxed.


----------



## raisingarizona

Andy_ROC said:


> No it's just a conspiracy and their lying. Alex Jones and those of similar ilk have told me so. I listen to AM radio political talk all day, so I know what I'm talking about!


Yup. I’m still fuming over all of the gay fish out there.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I read that Novavax is much much cheaper per dose, and may help the poorer countries get vaxed.


Yep, that's another reason that many countries were looking forward to Novavax getting their act together. The initial reports about the clinical trial results were back in June 2021. That was just before Delta made all the headlines.

Just looked . . . Novavax managed to file with the FDA in late December. Sounds like production will be done in India.

December 31, 2021








Novavax files COVID-19 vaccine data with FDA


Novavax on Friday filed final data with the Food and Drug Administration for its COVID-19 vaccine, clearing the way for a potential emergency approval next year.The move was the last step for the M…




thehill.com





June 2021








Novavax: Large study finds COVID-19 shot about 90% effective


Vaccine maker Novavax said Monday its COVID-19 shot was highly effective against the disease and also protected against variants in a large study in the U.S. and Mexico, potentially offering the world yet another weapon against the virus at a time when developing countries are desperate for doses.




apnews.com


----------



## Warp daddy

Report from my son's NYC hospital yesterday , ER's and ICU's at capacity , busy as hell , vast majority unvaxxed , certain drugs becoming difficult to stock.

That said unlike March 2020 or even late 2020 there are no dead bodies in body bags in hallways, no patients bedded in hallways and no shortage of PPE or vents.

The situation is very serious , staff is xtremely busy , getting very frustrated dealing with recalcitrants who fail to take proven precautions . 

Read an article last night by a team of doctors and nurses which indicated that under these brutal conditions EMPATHY ( from a profession known for empaths ) is waning


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Yes and it's really devious. I click on your screenname...
> 
> and then click on your number of messages (2,230) and they all come up. Try it it's fun. ?
> 
> When you have 2000 posts it's not exactly easy to see trends. But when you have 39 posts, it's not hard.


At 2230 might have to start pacing myself.
Glad I found yer place.
Ya run a pretty nice ship.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tjf1967 said:


> I don't care what you do, stay out of my personal space* public spaces* and we won't have a problem.


FIFY

mm


----------



## MarzNC

Anyone care to guess when Omicron started spreading in New England? Suppose someone flew into Logan from South Africa in early November and then drove home to Maine, and stopped for a meal in New Hampshire. Note that they had to be fully vaccinated to fly internationally. So could well be there were never any noticeable symptoms so if such a person had a breakthrough case, they would never have a reason to get tested soon after getting home. For that matter, could well have tested negative with a home rapid test.

This is from CovidActNow Trends (bottom of a state's webpage) starting with MA, and then I added VT, NH, ME. Can also see metropolitan areas like NYC or Atlanta separately from their state. Best to only look at past 180 or 90 days. Options for the Metric to graph include Cases, Hospitalizations, ICU, etc.

The recent increases in hospitalization are probably related to holiday socializing by unvaccinated people.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Warp daddy said:


> That said unlike March 2020 or even late 2020 there are no dead bodies in body bags in hallways, no patients bedded in hallways and no shortage of PPE or vents.


If there is a positive it's this. Thank God for that.


----------



## raisingarizona

Milo Maltbie said:


> FIFY
> 
> mm


The vax doesn’t stop the spread

It actually masks the symptoms


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> The vax doesn’t stop the spread


I wonder if had we "marketed" this vax as a covid "shot" if it would've been more widely accepted. It seems as though the word vax turns some people off. While I understand what mandates mean, I think some are confused by the word. They may start to understand once they start losing privilege's, which could start to happen on a larger scale.


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> The vax doesn’t stop the spread
> 
> It actually masks the symptoms


Well actually I think it's more like vaxed people *reduce* the spread. My understanding is that vaxed people are contagious for a shorter period of time because they can produced antibodies quickly to stop the replication of the virus within their bodies. Because of this vaxed people should have lower viral load and the duration of that load is shorter thus reducing the spread.


----------



## raisingarizona

Andy_ROC said:


> Well actually I think it's more like vaxed people *reduce* the spread. My understanding is that vaxed people are contagious for a shorter period of time because they can produced antibodies quickly to stop the replication of the virus within their bodies. Because of this vaxed people should have lower viral load and the duration of that load is shorter thus reducing the spread.


Maybe. I’m no scientist so it’s hard saying not really knowing. My point is though that it doesn’t make public spaces fool proof for the spread. What we think is really just an opinion until there’s some concrete data.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> What's ironic is I've never had a flu shot until this year. Got both my flu and booster shot the same day, in the same arm. I felt that one....lol


savage


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> What's ironic is I've never had a flu shot until this year. Got both my flu and booster shot the same day, in the same arm.


Me too for all.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> The vax doesn’t stop the spread
> 
> It actually masks the symptoms


Better wording . . . vaccination limits the symptoms to mild ones that are like a bad cold or the flu.

With Omicron, neither natural immunity from having had COVID-19 before November 2021 nor vaccination helps much to prevent infection. But in either case, the person is much more likely to avoid getting so sick that they need to be hospitalized.

Heard today that 90% of the NC hospitalizations are of people who are unvaccinated. I assume that's true in all hospitals in N. America. From what I've seen, the 10% of people who are vaccinated and hospitalized are high risk for assorted reasons. When someone who is over 65 and had medical problems dies with COVID-19, hard to say which medical issue was the actual cause of death.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> Well actually I think it's more like vaxed people *reduce* the spread. My understanding is that vaxed people are contagious for a shorter period of time because they can produced antibodies quickly to stop the replication of the virus within their bodies. Because of this vaxed people should have lower viral load and the duration of that load is shorter thus reducing the spread.


That was true with Delta and earlier variants. Vaxxed people still are contagious for a shorter period than unvaxxed at this stage. But with Omicron, if someone who is vexed vaxxed thinks there is no need for masking or avoiding close contact with friends and family, or strangers, even when they have symptoms then . . . that's why detected case counts have gone up so fast in places with high vax rates.

I used to say "Delta changed the situation" after June 2021. Now we are at "Omicron changed the situation" and that started in November 2021, not December.


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> Wow is right. You don't need to defend your choice of not being vaxed, not sure why you feel as though you do.
> Engineers pretending to be medical doctors are hard to take seriously.


I "always " take my medical advice from engineers ?‍?


----------



## tirolski

Warp daddy said:


> I "always " take my medical advice from *engineers* statisticians ?‍?


FIFY


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> That was true with Delta and earlier variants. Vaxxed people still are contagious for a shorter period than unvaxxed at this stage. But with Omicron, if someone who is vexed thinks there is no need for masking or avoiding close contact with friends and family, or strangers, even when they have symptoms then . . . that's why detected case counts have gone up so fast in places with high vax rates.
> 
> I used to say "Delta changed the situation" after June 2021. Now we are at "Omicron changed the situation" and that started in November 2021, not December.


I've read several articles that Omicron is also largely to blame for healthcare workers being overloaded. Not so much due to new patients, rather this variant spreads so easily that workers are having to call in sick and quarantine.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't.


----------



## Thacheronix

MarzNC said:


> someone who is vexed


very high percentage in the US


----------



## Low Angle Life

Thacheronix said:


> very high percentage in the US


Certainly much higher percentages vexed than vaxxed.


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> I've read several articles that Omicron is also largely to blame for healthcare workers being overloaded. Not so much due to new patients, rather this variant spreads so easily that workers are having to call in sick and quarantine.
> Damned if you do and damned if you don't.


That's especially true in areas where the number of new patients isn't actually that much higher than expected. In my county the usage of hospital beds in general, as well as in ICU, is high but not much different than the last couple months. However, staffing issues are significant at all the area hospitals.

Have read that some nurses are deciding that being a traveling nurse is worthwhile because the pay is higher. There are hospitals in some areas that are depending on traveling nurses to just get by right now.

Example from Iowa:
December 23, 2021








Iowa expected to spend more than $9 million for temporary nursing help


Iowa is paying Kansas company to place 100 out-of-state nurses and respiratory therapists at health care facilities.



www.desmoinesregister.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Have read that some nurses are deciding that being a traveling nurse is worthwhile because the pay is higher. There are hospitals in some areas that are depending on traveling nurses to just get by right now.


Posted something in the Rona & Skiing thread
The Doctor commuted to Cuse from Buffalo and the nurse was a “traveling nurse”.

Rochester area closed another of their “immediate care” places.








Rochester Regional Health has closed 19 facilities since the COVID-19 pandemic began | Fingerlakes1.com


Rochester Regional Health has announced the temporary closure of its Immediate Care center in Penfield. The Daily Messenger reports that brings to 19 the number of Rochester Regional facilities that have closed since the COVID-19 pandemic began. In the Finger Lakes, the list includes the Clifton...




www.fingerlakes1.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> Have read that some nurses are deciding that being a traveling nurse is worthwhile because the pay is higher. There are hospitals in some areas that are depending on traveling nurses to just get by right now.


This is very true. If it wasn't for travel nurses our local hospital wouldn't be able to operate. My wife could certainly make MUCH more if she did this but she enjoys being local. She knows a lot of her patients, and their families. To her part of nursing is taking care of your community. That, and she's very close to a few doc's in there whom she respects immensely and would miss if she traveled.

ETA: A friend of ours went to NYC during the height of the pandemic. She went for numerous reasons, the least of her reasons was the pay. She did make $12,000 a week and was there for a month. She says it was combat pay.


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> Posted this in the Rona & Skiing thread


Does it have any impact on or reference to skiing?

Pick a thread and post it, once.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Does it have any impact on or reference to skiing?
> 
> Pick a thread and post it, once.


Nope, It was a reply to an "urgent care” topic and “new normal” was locked at the time.
I deleted the italicized above.
Yer runnin a tighter ship.
We need snow.


----------



## wonderpony

Harvey said:


> Does it have any impact on or reference to skiing?
> 
> Pick a thread and post it, once.


I tell lots of people that I get my best info from the NYS Ski blog. Thanks, everyone!


----------



## Brownski

tirolski said:


> Yer runnin a tighter ship.
> We need snow.


Nerves are frayed all around


----------



## Harvey

Just a simple request to look at your coronavirus post. If the word skiing is in it put it in the other thread.


----------



## JTG

Andy_ROC said:


> Well actually I think it's more like vaxed people *reduce* the spread. My understanding is that vaxed people are contagious for a shorter period of time because they can produced antibodies quickly to stop the replication of the virus within their bodies. Because of this vaxed people should have lower viral load and the duration of that load is shorter thus reducing the spread.


That’s what I was just explaining to my wife. We rung in the NewYear with COVID, the whole family of 5 infected.

Being a teacher my wife has to stay home, but she was wondering why vaccinated people can return to work sooner than unvaccinated people. That right there ? is the answer I believe.

There are many ways the vaccines are helpful, this among them. For the same reason it seems the severity and duration of illness is less. God willing I don’t get worse….but three days in and I haven’t even needed an Advil to treat symptoms, just a box of tissues.

But…but….I’m fully vaccinated AND boostered and I STILL got COVID, so clearly the vaccine MUST be useless! That’s the frustrating thing with the anti-vax/anti-mask crowd, IMHO. They are too quick with the AH-HAs…..and too slow to recognize the benefits. After all, it was never my impression that vaccines and masks would prevent people from getting sick. Slow and reduce spread, help protect (to some degree) those more vulnerable? Sure, but vaccines and masks were never sold as a panacea.


----------



## Peter Minde

Yeh... I'm vaxxed and boosted, I wear a mask everywhere, and tested positive for covid this morning. Strangely, this hasn't turned me into an anti-science know-nothing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

JTG and Peter..... y'all be cool, k?
Glad you guys aren't too bad and pray it stays that way.
2 co-workers of mine have their mothers in ICU with this crap. Neither of them on a ventilator, but one on 13mil of 02 and the other on 15. Not cool.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

I was thinking a vaxxed person would also sneeze and cough a lot less if they did get covid. Thus creating less opportunity to spread it in the air. I think I'm finally over the hump of this omicron. Tested positive Sunday.


----------



## Brownski

3 out of 4 of us are isolating now. So far I’ve just had a little headache and runny nose


----------



## wonderpony

Campgottagopee said:


> JTG and Peter..... y'all be cool, k?
> Glad you guys aren't too bad and pray it stays that way.
> 2 co-workers of mine have their mothers in ICU with this crap. Neither of them on a ventilator, but one on 13mil of 02 and the other on 15. Not cool.


I am so sorry, Camp. This just sucks.


----------



## wonderpony

Cornell has gone for virtual instruction through February 4. I will be working remotely through (at least) January 18. I am glad that I brought my office plants home!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Adirondack Johnny said:


> I was thinking a vaxxed person would also sneeze and cough a lot less if they did get covid. Thus creating less opportunity to spread it in the air. I think I'm finally over the hump of this omicron. Tested positive Sunday.


My man Johnny 
Glad all is good.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Just a simple request to look at your coronavirus post. If the word skiing is in it put it in the other thread.


"Skiing" wasn’t in either Left it here and deleted the text copied.
It wasn’t hard.
No problemo.

More of the long story in the other thread is the friend I drove to the urgent care is 94. 
He was back golfing again about 10 days after the stitches went in.


----------



## MarzNC

As some of you know, I've been discussing the pandemic on the Aussie ski forum all along. That is a huge forum that's been around since 1995. There is an entire subform for the "Rona." There are Aussies living in Canada, the USA, the UK, and Europe who participate in the discussions.

Recently quite a few of the regular Aussie posters about the pandemic who are fully vaccinated have tested positive. Presumably with Omicron. Also seen posts about friends or family who tested positive in the last few weeks. The most common story has been about young adults who went to social gatherings or events over the holidays or are roommates with someone who did. The common result is often 4-5 days of minor symptoms while socializing with their friends who are also positive. One man has been very careful and didn't visit his elderly parents since early 2020. Finally went recently. His parents (fully vaccinated) were socializing with friends over the holidays . . . and got COVID-19. Masking is not that common around Australia because keeping the borders closed meant people believed COVID-19 could be kept out. Not just international borders. There are a couple Australian states keeping out non-resident Aussies.

An Aussie who is an ex-pat in London said something like 18 of about 40 of his co-workers have tested positive. They are mostly WFH so the exposure was from personal contacts, not work.

Hopefully vaccination with any of the approved vaccines plus recovery from Omicron will be good protection against another COVID-19 infection for quite a while. (Australia started with Astra Zeneca but many people got Pfizer.)


----------



## MarzNC

Have posted this graphic before but it still applies even with vaccinations. The concept came from the UK in 2020. Applied for Delta after vaccination was more common but even more relevant with Omicron. 

The idea is to stay in the green as much as possible. Only difference in 2022 is that some of the yellow boxes for outdoors and low occupancy that include masking probably could be considered green for anyone who is vaccinated. Outdoors and High Occupancy is harder to say with Omicron.


----------



## JTG

MarzNC said:


> Hopefully vaccination with any of the approved vaccines plus recovery from Omicron will be good protection against another COVID-19 infection for quite a while.


Huzzah!

Vaxxed, boostered, antibodies from having the virus…..hoping that sets me up well for my ski season!!


----------



## Brownski

JTG said:


> Huzzah!
> 
> Vaxxed, boostered, antibodies from having the virus…..hoping that sets me up well for my ski season!!


Yeah
I’m in the same boat


----------



## MarzNC

Been hearing about more and more breakthrough cases that are undoubtedly Omicron. Locations have included Washington state, California, New England, the UK, Australia, New Zealand. Meaning first hand reports by people on ski forums who are regular posters and fully vaccinated. Includes some of the elderly parents of the poster. No one is talking about symptoms for more than a week or so in these cases.

Also saw a post from an ER doc in Washington who said that while many people are coming to the ER and testing positive in the last 10-14 days, few have needed to be admitted. Don't know if those are vaccinated or unvaccinated people though.


----------



## Sbob

My oldest sons family has it again. They had it last year when they lived in KS . Got vacations over the summer and now living in AZ got it last week. She said she feels worse with this go-round. 
They’ve been stressed out with the move and working crazy hours,I’m sure that doesn’t help. 

She was exposed to someone 7 days before testing positive.So much for the 5 day recommendation.


----------



## MarzNC

Sbob said:


> My oldest sons family has it again. They had it last year when they lived in KS . Got vacations over the summer and now living in AZ got it last week. She said she feels worse with this go-round.
> They’ve been stressed out with the move and working crazy hours,I’m sure that doesn’t help.
> 
> She was exposed to someone 7 days before testing positive.So much for the 5 day recommendation.


I presume the person she considers the source tested positive. The 5-day recommendation is to isolate starting the day of a confirmed positive test. Then mask diligently for another 5 days. I think the only way to test positive is to have been infected for at least a day or two.

Was it a rapid antigen test or a PCR test?


----------



## Sbob

MarzNC said:


> I presume the person she considers the source tested positive. The 5-day recommendation is to isolate starting the day of a confirmed positive test. Then mask diligently for another 5 days. I think the only way to test positive is to have been infected for at least a day or two.
> 
> Was it a rapid antigen test or a PCR test?


Rapid was negative PCR was positive. She is bouncing back quickly thank goodness.


----------



## tirolski

Sbob said:


> My oldest sons family has it again. They had it last year when they lived in KS . Got vacations over the summer and now living in AZ got it last week. She said she feels worse with this go-round.
> They’ve been stressed out with the move and working crazy hours





Sbob said:


> She is bouncing back quickly thank goodness.


Vacations have been proven to help ya bounce back from stress and working crazy hours.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Campgottagopee said:


> Heck, I rode sled, drank beer, and smoked weed the entire time I had it not knowing I had it. I thought it was just a cold.


Well, well, well --- apparently I was onto something 








Compounds in hemp block COVID-19 from entering human cells, study says


CORVALLIS, Ore. (KVAL) — Compounds found in hemp "show the ability to prevent the virus that causes COVID-19 from entering human cells," Oregon State University says. New OSU research on hemp and COVID-19 was published Tuesday in the Journal of Natural Products. Caption: KVAL. Richard van...




cnycentral.com


----------



## Low Angle Life

Campgottagopee said:


> Well, well, well --- apparently I was onto something
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compounds in hemp block COVID-19 from entering human cells, study says
> 
> 
> CORVALLIS, Ore. (KVAL) — Compounds found in hemp "show the ability to prevent the virus that causes COVID-19 from entering human cells," Oregon State University says. New OSU research on hemp and COVID-19 was published Tuesday in the Journal of Natural Products. Caption: KVAL. Richard van...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnycentral.com


This explains EVERYTHING...


----------



## snoloco

I'm not sure it really effects ski areas because many of them already required the vaccine for employees, some going beyond the proposed OSHA rule by not allowing a test option.


----------



## Brownski

I think that’s right but it will at least increase the pool of potential last minute hires to make up for absences


----------



## tirolski

A “New Normal” article came out 06JAN22.
Published Journal of American Medical Association - Network.








A National Strategy for the “New Normal” of Life With COVID


This Viewpoint discusses how US policy makers should address how the nation can move forward as the pandemic persists.




jamanetwork.com


----------



## raisingarizona

Sbob said:


> My oldest sons family has it again. They had it last year when they lived in KS . Got vacations over the summer and now living in AZ got it last week. She said she feels worse with this go-round.
> They’ve been stressed out with the move and working crazy hours,I’m sure that doesn’t help.
> 
> She was exposed to someone 7 days before testing positive.So much for the 5 day recommendation.


It’s everywhere here in Arizona right now. Cody’s friends all had it over the holiday break but she ended up with a negative result. That’s weird since they were all together, going to movies and having sleep overs as they all started to get it. I’ve been heavily exposed on several occasions that I know about and haven’t gotten it again, or at least that I know of.


----------



## Peter Minde

raisingarizona said:


> It’s everywhere here in Arizona right now. Cody’s friends all had it over the holiday break but she ended up with a negative result. That’s weird since they were all together, going to movies and having sleep overs as they all started to get it. I’ve been heavily exposed on several occasions that I know about and haven’t gotten it again, or at least that I know of.


Omicron is no joke. I had it; my kid has it, I know more than a few people that caught it despite masking and social distancing.


----------



## raisingarizona

Peter Minde said:


> Omicron is no joke. I had it; my kid has it, I know more than a few people that caught it despite masking and social distancing.


I had the vid so bad during the first week of January 2020 I told myself nope, never again. I truly believe my immune system agreed and has double downed on not allowing that shit to take hold again. In February of 21 I was in a closed vehicle with a coworker for 3 hours and he was sick and positive two days later. I didn’t catch it then. The last few weeks all of my daughters friends tested positive and again, we got nuthin. None of this is based on science but I tend to go with my gut on most things and we are still keeping things as safe as possible but we’re not going to stop living.

I was even told on this forum that I couldn’t have had the vid in January of 20 because the media hadn’t confirmed it was around at that time but later it was stated to likely have been around since the fall. I knew I had it. It royally f-d me up. It was seriously trying to kill me.

Omicron may be more transmissible but the affects from what I’ve heard aren’t nearly as terrible for most people.


----------



## Peter Minde

raisingarizona said:


> I had the vid so bad during the first week of January 2020 I told myself nope, never again. I truly believe my immune system agreed and has double downed on not allowing that shit to take hold again. In February of 21 I was in a closed vehicle with a coworker for 3 hours and he was sick and positive two days later. I didn’t catch it then. The last few weeks all of my daughters friends tested positive and again, we got nuthin. None of this is based on science but I tend to go with my gut on most things and we are still keeping things as safe as possible but we’re not going to stop living.
> 
> I was even told on this forum that I couldn’t have had the vid in January of 20 because the media hadn’t confirmed it was around at that time but later it was stated to likely have been around since the fall. I knew I had it. It royally f-d me up. It was seriously trying to kill me.
> 
> Omicron may be more transmissible but the affects from what I’ve heard aren’t nearly as terrible for most people.


I was lucky; I've had colds that were worse than omicron. My child unfortunately isn't so lucky. We're fortunate to be vaxxed. Some local municipalities are re-instituting mask mandates.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

Omicron did suck, but now I'm just sitting here like:


----------



## raisingarizona

Peter Minde said:


> I was lucky; I've had colds that were worse than omicron. My child unfortunately isn't so lucky. We're fortunate to be vaxxed. Some local municipalities are re-instituting mask mandates.


Sorry to hear that Peter, hopefully your kiddo is doing better. It’s so strange and random how it effects different people.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> I was even told on this forum that I couldn’t have had the vid in January of 20 because the media hadn’t confirmed it was around at that time but later it was stated to likely have been around since the fall. I knew I had it. It royally f-d me up. It was seriously trying to kill me.


It's certainly quite possible you had COVID-19 in January 2020. It was definitely in Colorado by early Feb 2020. I knew of more than one case that traced back to Vail from that month. Meaning confirmed by PCR or antibody testing after travelers made it home. I knew COVID-19 was in Boston by early March 2020 when my daughter did a quick trip to visit a few people at the start of her spring break. I told her how to stay safe but opted to let her go because it was unclear when she might be able to get to Boston again. As it turned out, she went earlier this month. The world certainly has changed as of Jan 2022.

They found that COVID-19 was in Italy as early as Nov 2019 based on analyzing waste water samples taken in the months before the first detected case.


----------



## raisingarizona

I had it during the first week of January 2020. It’s not a maybe, it’s a definite. I had the lingering, long term junk until April.

Both my girls were sick in December. The gf had just come back from Denver where she was working in a small space with her boss who had just come back from China. I have read that it had been in California since October 2019.


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

So this is all her fault?


----------



## raisingarizona

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> So this is all her fault?


Yup, I’m 99.97% sure that she was patient zero for Arizona ?


----------



## Peter Minde

raisingarizona said:


> Sorry to hear that Peter, hopefully your kiddo is doing better. It’s so strange and random how it effects different people.


She's doing better, thank you. Difference between being vaxxed and boosted (me) and only vaxxed (her).


----------



## ScottySkis

According this link covid should be better because of cbd that in the Mircale plant
Happy Friday, everyone! Here's a fun result that came out recently in a comprehensive paper published in Science about CBD and Covid infections:
https://www.science.org/doi/epdf/10.1126/sciadv.abi6110
and an easier-to-digest write up in Vice:








						Oral CBD Prevented COVID-19 Infection in Real-World Patients, Study Suggests
					

While not a substitute for vaccines, "CBD has the potential to prevent infections, such as breakthrough infections," the study's lead author said.




					www.vice.com
				




The paper dives deeply into the mechanisms of action, but the part that's getting the most attention is that oral CBD use in real-world patients is associated with a ~35% lower risk of a positive Covid test (in people taking it for seizures). It's on pages 7 and 8 of the article, but the risk of a Covid positive test in the study period was 6.2% for people taking daily oral CBD vs. 8.9% for matched controls.
The 35% reduction figure comes from a multivariable logit model, which is a slightly more sophisticated was of matching patients.

Do with that information what you will 
I hope you have a great end to your week!


----------



## snoloco

JTG said:


> Sno…..I sincerely doubt that he was referring to having to wear a mask or the fearmongering and such that affects everyone, not just young people. If that is the most severe impact that the last two years has had on you life you are very lucky.


That isn't my point here. My point is that I've spoken out about the collateral damage that the government response to covid has inflicted, which has been worse for people my age than it has for older people. In response, I've been harshly ridiculed, told that I'm prolonging the pandemic, trying to kill the immunocompromised/elderly, and more. 

You took my comment literally. Yes, I'm opposed to mask mandates and I've made that very clear. That's just one of the measures we've been subject to for close to 2 years (minus a short break in the summer), and it's proven just as ineffective as it is harmful. I know you're going to respond with "it's just a mask". I don't see it that way. It's not just that masking is inconvenient and uncomfortable. Seeing faces is important in everyday interactions, and for our psychological well-being. The zoom class who usually supports these mandates generally doesn't have a wear a mask all day. I also hate the class stratification where servers and bartenders are forced to wear masks, while customers remain unmasked. It should be a personal choice for everyone. Every time cases rise in a blue jurisdiction, it's virtually assured that the mayor or governor will impose this pointless measure, whether as punishment for cases going up, or to make a show of "doing something".

While mask mandates have absolutely messed with my psychological well-being, it's far from the only thing that's been done. The public is also being gaslit into believing that they can control the trajectory of cases, when it's clear that things are going to follow seasonal trends, regardless of what anyone does. This means being told something along the lines of "wear a mask and avoid travel and limit your contacts or I'm going to lock you down or close your business or take away some activity you like to do". It's totally demoralizing and maddening when you that one, you can't control the actions of others, and two that even if you could, it probably wouldn't chance the number of covid cases. The gaslighting and repeated threats have been the worst part for me. Since I live in New York, one of the most restrictive states, I feel like a prisoner. Also, for JTG, just because others have had it worse, doesn't make it right to trivialize my experience, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Part of the reason I'm so frustrated with the current state of affairs is because I know that it's affected others worse than it has affected me, so don't try and say that I don't care about others again.

Public health authorities have vastly overstated the risk of getting covid for most people. Based on the real data I've seen, there's no reason to alter my life in any way or take any precautions to avoid covid exposure, yet the recommendations reflect the most risk-averse position, and these tend to get codified into mandates in blue jurisdictions. For example, right now the CDC is recommending that even vaccinated and boosted people avoid large gatherings. They're even recommending that school sports get cancelled in like 90% of counties, even if everyone is vaccinated. Many schools are following this and cancelling sports and other extracurricular activities. You've got 100% vaccinated colleges literally locking down. How does anything think that this is not having a severe impact on the well-being of teenagers and 20 somethings? Maybe you don't think sports or clubs are important, but what if I told you that it caused people to not seek treatment for other health conditions, whether physical or mental, cut people off from support structures so they relapsed into alcohol or drug addiction, or even committed suicide. When you take away multiple years of social interaction, gaslight the public into believing impossible scenarios, and offer no hope or vision for a better future, this is the result.


----------



## tirolski

snoloco said:


> That isn't my point here. My point is that I've spoken out about the collateral damage that the government response to covid has inflicted, which has been worse for people my age than it has for older people.


Ya might wanna fix yer 2nd sentence 1st point..
More older folks died than any other age group.
A lot of em weren’t allowed to see their own folks.
Amen.


----------



## Ripitz

Hang in there Sno. Hoping for better days ahead.


----------



## witch hobble

Devil’s advocate here…..what schools are vaxxed 100%? And what schools are “locking down”?


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/16/us/politics/colleges-covid-coronavirus.html

The psychological effects you are feeling are a result of the tearing of the social fabric and the smashing of the social contract taking place in society right now. We all feel it. No one state or political party is more or less responsible, and no generation is more or less susceptible.


----------



## snoloco

tirolski said:


> Ya might wanna fix yer 2nd sentence 1st point..
> More older folks died than any other age group.
> A lot of em weren’t allowed to see their own folks.
> Amen.


If anything, this pandemic taught me that life is finite, and you might as well enjoy the time you've got. Trying to wait it out might've worked for several months, but not for several years like is happening now. I know of situations where people didn't visit elderly relatives because they were concerned about giving them covid, and before they had the chance to, they died, either from covid or another cause. It's a terrible situation. Once I was vaccinated, I never hesitated to do anything I would've done in 2019, and that includes visiting elderly relatives.



witch hobble said:


> Devil’s advocate here…..what schools are vaxxed 100%? And what schools are “locking down”?


Johns Hopkins has full remote instruction and shut their dining halls. Yale didn't allow students to eat out at restaurants. Pretty much every college has a vaccine mandate, yet they have the same restrictions they did last year. These two I think even have booster mandates, like the entire SUNY system.



witch hobble said:


> The psychological effects you are feeling are a result of the tearing of the social fabric and the smashing of the social contract taking place in society right now. We all feel it. No one state or political party is more or less responsible, and no generation is more or less susceptible.


That happened because we moralized getting sick with covid, and taking precautions to avoid it. And yes, both political parties did it. What I mean is if you get covid, it has been considered a moral failing, like you did something wrong to end up getting it, and if you didn't take every precaution to avoid it, you were selfish and wanted others to die and extend the pandemic. Likewise, in some social circles, you're considered a "sheep" for getting vaccinated. None of this is ok. Everyone has their own risk tolerance, and to a certain extent that should be respected.


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> If anything, this pandemic taught me that life is finite, and you might as well enjoy the time you've got. Trying to wait it out might've worked for several months, but not for several years like is happening now. I know of situations where people didn't visit elderly relatives because they were concerned about giving them covid, and before they had the chance to, they died, either from covid or another cause. It's a terrible situation. Once I was vaccinated, I never hesitated to do anything I would've done in 2019, and that includes visiting elderly relatives.
> 
> 
> Johns Hopkins has full remote instruction and shut their dining halls. Yale didn't allow students to eat out at restaurants. Pretty much every college has a vaccine mandate, yet they have the same restrictions they did last year. These two I think even have booster mandates, like the entire SUNY system.
> 
> 
> That happened because we moralized getting sick with covid, and taking precautions to avoid it. And yes, both political parties did it. What I mean is if you get covid, it has been considered a moral failing, like you did something wrong to end up getting it, and if you didn't take every precaution to avoid it, you were selfish and wanted others to die and extend the pandemic. Likewise, in some social circles, you're considered a "sheep" for getting vaccinated. None of this is ok. Everyone has their own risk tolerance, and to a certain extent that should be respected.


The social fabric comment was intended to extend the scope of the conversation beyond strictly Covid, because we were well on our way before Covid, before Trump, before twitter. All these things have merely exacerbated the situation. It goes way beyond moralizing related to covid.

I did not realize the SUNY mandate, no longer being a New Yorker. I live in a college town, in a proudly libertarian-leaning state with a centrist Republican Governor. I think our local school is at 80% vaccinated. Aside from masking in public campus spaces I don’t think much else is being enforced. Admittedly, your other examples are of super elite schools with massive endowments. They can afford to play by whatever rules they want. 3rd tier state schools can’t necessarily.


----------



## snoloco

witch hobble said:


> I live in a college town, in a proudly libertarian-leaning state with a centrist Republican Governor.


That sounds like New Hampshire to me. Considering relocating there.


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> That sounds like New Hampshire to me. Considering relocating there.


Pro tip: never relocate to somewhere because of your perceived notion of the ideals of a place. Once your boots are on the ground, complexities you didn’t game out will present themselves.

But yes, NH.


----------



## G.ski

My issue is specifically the lack of any plan for an exit from this nightmare. No proactive thinking (other than imprisoning the population) or action plan to open society up again.

While there is a *small minority* on both ends of the political spectrum who have made their priorities clear, the vast majority of the population in the middle are neither scared to death of this virus nor determined to disregard the well-being of others because they feel their "rights" are being violated. As a resident of the middle, this pandemic is over as far as I'm concerned and I'm going to live my life that way. Sure I'll mask up if required and I've been vaccinated. I will not stick vaccines in my arm every 6 months to satisfy some political hack who hangs their hat on "following the science". Frankly, these people have no idea what they are doing. Their constant backtracking and policy changes prove that. No idea what to do.

I live in my personal bubble with my family and close friends. We are fortunate that none of us have gotten sick but I realize now that is the result of good living and staying healthy. I have always lived that way. You will *never* see me on an airplane, cruise ship, movie theater, broadway theater, sporting event or any other activity that involves being around crowds. I don't like people that much! I would take this far more seriously if all of those activities were shut down. But that won't happen because then we wouldn't be "following the money" which seems more important to our "leaders".

I'm going to stop because I'm sure I've offended some and that is not my intention. I hear the nags and henpeckers
warming up the keyboard.


----------



## snoloco

witch hobble said:


> Pro tip: never relocate to somewhere because of your perceived notion of the ideals of a place. Once your boots are on the ground, complexities you didn’t game out will present themselves.
> 
> But yes, NH.


I actually just went there a couple weeks ago to try and get the lay of the land. I'm not going to just pick up and move and expect everything to be perfect, but the fact is that New Hampshire is far less covid obsessed than New York, and it is very likely I would be happier there. This virus isn't going away, and I'm worried there are going to be recurring restrictions every winter in New York.


----------



## G.ski

snoloco said:


> I actually just went there a couple weeks ago to try and get the lay of the land. I'm not going to just pick up and move and expect everything to be perfect, but the fact is that New Hampshire is far less covid obsessed than New York, and it is very likely I would be happier there. This virus isn't going away, and I'm worried there are going to be recurring restrictions every winter in New York.


NYC is the only "covid obsessed" area; just avoid cities and you'll be fine.


----------



## snoloco

G.ski said:


> My issue is specifically the lack of any plan for an exit from this nightmare. No proactive thinking (other than imprisoning the population) or action plan to open society up again.


Exactly. I think exiting from this nightmare would require many to admit they were wrong, and they don't want to do that for obvious reason.



G.ski said:


> While there is a *small minority* on both ends of the political spectrum who have made their priorities clear, the vast majority of the population in the middle are neither scared to death of this virus nor determined to disregard the well-being of others because they feel their "rights" are being violated. As a resident of the middle, this pandemic is over as far as I'm concerned and I'm going to live my life that way. Sure I'll mask up if required and I've been vaccinated. I will not stick vaccines in my arm every 6 months to satisfy some political hack who hangs their hat on "following the science". Frankly, these people have no idea what they are doing. Their constant backtracking and policy changes prove that. No idea what to do.


I posted earlier how the spectrum with regard to covid divides into roughly 5 categories. I won't repost but it's in this thread. I also have a different spectrum with what I call "covid hawks" on one side (those in favor of stricter measures) and "covid doves" on the other (those who are opposed to all restrictions). You're not necessarily locked in one place on that spectrum. Before vaccines, I considered myself cautious, though not to the extent of many (I worked in an office). I agree that the pandemic is over as far as I'm concerned, which is why I oppose all restrictions. They are unnecessary when everyone has access to vaccines.



G.ski said:


> NYC is the only "covid obsessed" area; just avoid cities and you'll be fine.


Except that we have a statewide mask mandate, so you're not fine if you avoid cities.


----------



## Tjf1967

snoloco said:


> That isn't my point here. My point is that I've spoken out about the collateral damage that the government response to covid has inflicted, which has been worse for people my age than it has for older people. In response, I've been harshly ridiculed, told that I'm prolonging the pandemic, trying to kill the immunocompromised/elderly, and more.
> 
> You took my comment literally. Yes, I'm opposed to mask mandates and I've made that very clear. That's just one of the measures we've been subject to for close to 2 years (minus a short break in the summer), and it's proven just as ineffective as it is harmful. I know you're going to respond with "it's just a mask". I don't see it that way. It's not just that masking is inconvenient and uncomfortable. Seeing faces is important in everyday interactions, and for our psychological well-being. The zoom class who usually supports these mandates generally doesn't have a wear a mask all day. I also hate the class stratification where servers and bartenders are forced to wear masks, while customers remain unmasked. It should be a personal choice for everyone. Every time cases rise in a blue jurisdiction, it's virtually assured that the mayor or governor will impose this pointless measure, whether as punishment for cases going up, or to make a show of "doing something".
> 
> While mask mandates have absolutely messed with my psychological well-being, it's far from the only thing that's been done. The public is also being gaslit into believing that they can control the trajectory of cases, when it's clear that things are going to follow seasonal trends, regardless of what anyone does. This means being told something along the lines of "wear a mask and avoid travel and limit your contacts or I'm going to lock you down or close your business or take away some activity you like to do". It's totally demoralizing and maddening when you that one, you can't control the actions of others, and two that even if you could, it probably wouldn't chance the number of covid cases. The gaslighting and repeated threats have been the worst part for me. Since I live in New York, one of the most restrictive states, I feel like a prisoner. Also, for JTG, just because others have had it worse, doesn't make it right to trivialize my experience, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Part of the reason I'm so frustrated with the current state of affairs is because I know that it's affected others worse than it has affected me, so don't try and say that I don't care about others again.
> 
> Public health authorities have vastly overstated the risk of getting covid for most people. Based on the real data I've seen, there's no reason to alter my life in any way or take any precautions to avoid covid exposure, yet the recommendations reflect the most risk-averse position, and these tend to get codified into mandates in blue jurisdictions. For example, right now the CDC is recommending that even vaccinated and boosted people avoid large gatherings. They're even recommending that school sports get cancelled in like 90% of counties, even if everyone is vaccinated. Many schools are following this and cancelling sports and other extracurricular activities. You've got 100% vaccinated colleges literally locking down. How does anything think that this is not having a severe impact on the well-being of teenagers and 20 somethings? Maybe you don't think sports or clubs are important, but what if I told you that it caused people to not seek treatment for other health conditions, whether physical or mental, cut people off from support structures so they relapsed into alcohol or drug addiction, or even committed suicide. When you take away multiple years of social interaction, gaslight the public into believing impossible scenarios, and offer no hope or vision for a better future, this is the result.


I just think you're a big baby. Wa


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> That isn't my point here. My point is that I've spoken out about the collateral damage that the government response to covid has inflicted, which has been worse for people my age than it has for older people. In response, I've been harshly ridiculed, told that I'm prolonging the pandemic, trying to kill the immunocompromised/elderly, and more.
> 
> You took my comment literally. Yes, I'm opposed to mask mandates and I've made that very clear. That's just one of the measures we've been subject to for close to 2 years (minus a short break in the summer), and it's proven just as ineffective as it is harmful. I know you're going to respond with "it's just a mask". I don't see it that way. It's not just that masking is inconvenient and uncomfortable. Seeing faces is important in everyday interactions, and for our psychological well-being. The zoom class who usually supports these mandates generally doesn't have a wear a mask all day. I also hate the class stratification where servers and bartenders are forced to wear masks, while customers remain unmasked. It should be a personal choice for everyone. Every time cases rise in a blue jurisdiction, it's virtually assured that the mayor or governor will impose this pointless measure, whether as punishment for cases going up, or to make a show of "doing something".
> 
> While mask mandates have absolutely messed with my psychological well-being, it's far from the only thing that's been done. The public is also being gaslit into believing that they can control the trajectory of cases, when it's clear that things are going to follow seasonal trends, regardless of what anyone does. This means being told something along the lines of "wear a mask and avoid travel and limit your contacts or I'm going to lock you down or close your business or take away some activity you like to do". It's totally demoralizing and maddening when you that one, you can't control the actions of others, and two that even if you could, it probably wouldn't chance the number of covid cases. The gaslighting and repeated threats have been the worst part for me. Since I live in New York, one of the most restrictive states, I feel like a prisoner. Also, for JTG, just because others have had it worse, doesn't make it right to trivialize my experience, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Part of the reason I'm so frustrated with the current state of affairs is because I know that it's affected others worse than it has affected me, so don't try and say that I don't care about others again.
> 
> Public health authorities have vastly overstated the risk of getting covid for most people. Based on the real data I've seen, there's no reason to alter my life in any way or take any precautions to avoid covid exposure, yet the recommendations reflect the most risk-averse position, and these tend to get codified into mandates in blue jurisdictions. For example, right now the CDC is recommending that even vaccinated and boosted people avoid large gatherings. They're even recommending that school sports get cancelled in like 90% of counties, even if everyone is vaccinated. Many schools are following this and cancelling sports and other extracurricular activities. You've got 100% vaccinated colleges literally locking down. How does anything think that this is not having a severe impact on the well-being of teenagers and 20 somethings? Maybe you don't think sports or clubs are important, but what if I told you that it caused people to not seek treatment for other health conditions, whether physical or mental, cut people off from support structures so they relapsed into alcohol or drug addiction, or even committed suicide. When you take away multiple years of social interaction, gaslight the public into believing impossible scenarios, and offer no hope or vision for a better future, this is the result.


----------



## Harvey

Last three pages moved here to New Normal.

If it is about covid not about skiing, it goes here.









Notice on Coronavirus Posting


There is no simple solution for Covid content. Any unlocked thread remotely related to the topic becomes the defacto covid thread. The topic has such strong political undercurrent, there is always potential for tension. I've unlocked the Covid and Skiing thread (in the Woodstove) and the New...




nyskiblog.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

I think we've all hit the pandemic basement. 
Some are speaking of this as being political, it's only political if you let it be, meaning, listen and talk to your own doctor. It's amazing to me how many internet doctors this pandemic has created.
This is real and people are dying from it. It's about others, not ourselves.


----------



## snoloco

Campgottagopee said:


> I think we've all hit the pandemic basement.
> Some are speaking of this as being political, it's only political if you let it be, meaning, listen and talk to your own doctor. It's amazing to me how many internet doctors this pandemic has created.
> This is real and people are dying from it. It's about others, not ourselves.


It's political because the response has been political from day 1, and in blue states there have been severe restrictions on what you can and can't do for the better part of 2 years. While it's nice to say listen to your own doctor, the fact is you, nor your doctor get to make decisions about how to live your life in New York State. The state health commissioner decides for you, and a "regulation change" is being snuck through that gives that office even more unchecked power.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> It's political because the response has been political from day 1, and in blue states there have been severe restrictions on what you can and can't do for the better part of 2 years. While it's nice to say listen to your own doctor, the fact is you, nor your doctor get to make decisions about how to live your life in New York State. The state health commissioner decides for you, and a "regulation change" is being snuck through that gives that office even more unchecked power.


Lmao
What can't you do in NYS? You've also said COVID has controlled every aspect of your life. I call foul. That's simply BS drama, imo.


----------



## witch hobble




----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> I think we've all hit the pandemic basement.
> Some are speaking of this as being political, it's only political if you let it be, meaning, listen and talk to your own doctor. It's amazing to me how many internet doctors this pandemic has created.
> This is real and people are dying from it. It's about others, not ourselves.



I think it's becoming less political in part because both sides are in the same place, ready to be done with all of it.

I think the whole country, or a lot if it, the normal people who aren't insulated, are sad. Yesterday we just had an employee quit because it was too sad to work at our company. Everyone is struggling emotionally, and she wants to freelance so she can be away from it. She left without another job lined up. I'm devastated by this.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> I think it's becoming less political in part because both sides of the aisles are in the same place, ready to be done with all of it.
> 
> I think the whole country, or a lot if it, the normal people who aren't insulated, are sad. Yesterday we just had an employee quit because it was too sad to work at our company…. I'm devastated by this.


My preferred COVID indicator (wastewater in Boston) has this thing dropping rapidly. Europe is starting to treat it as endemic (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/12/sho...e-the-flu-europe-is-starting-to-think-so.html). Only a matter of time before the remaining mask restrictions are lifted and we’re back to normal.

I don’t understand the wild emotional swings. Snoloco has been whiny for months because he has to wear a mask occasionally. Now people are quitting their computer jobs because they are “sad” (and that is “devastating” to you?). I mean, sure it’s a rough time, but these seem like tangential pandemic “problems”.

Camp’s wife is dealing with this thing every day & she goes to work. She’s a real hero. There are healthcare workers who have been spit on, ridiculed, & mocked and they soldier on.

The least that we (non healthcare workers, teachers, other people dealing with pandemic hate) can do is just retain our composure for the next few weeks, then we’ll all have a great spring & summer. Be nice.


----------



## snoloco

Harvey said:


> I think it's becoming less political in part because both sides are in the same place, ready to be done with all of it.



I do agree that both sides want it over. One side accepts that the only way out is going to involve everyone being exposed, many getting sick, and sadly, some dying. We have vaccines and treatments to minimize the harm caused, but there's no escaping that reality. The other side is holding onto this delusion that we can "stop" the pandemic with masks, vaccine passports, school closures, social distancing, and other measures like arbitrary limits on gathering sizes if only everyone would comply. We've done that for close to 2 years. If it worked it would've been over by now, and it clearly as failed, miserably. All we have to show for it is a lot of collateral damage. I think the scenario Harvey pointed out is just one example.


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> My preferred COVID indicator (wastewater in Boston) has this thing dropping rapidly. Europe is starting to treat it as endemic (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/12/sho...e-the-flu-europe-is-starting-to-think-so.html). Only a matter of time before the remaining mask restrictions are lifted and we’re back to normal.
> 
> I don’t understand the wild emotional swings. Snoloco has been whiny for months because he has to wear a mask occasionally. Now people are quitting their computer jobs because they are “sad” (and that is “devastating” to you?). I mean, sure it’s a rough time, but these seem like tangential pandemic “problems”.
> 
> Camp’s wife is dealing with this thing every day & she goes to work. She’s a real hero. There are healthcare workers who have been spit on, ridiculed, & mocked and they soldier on.
> 
> The least that we (non healthcare workers, teachers, other people dealing with pandemic hate) can do is just retain our composure for the next few weeks, then we’ll all have a great spring & summer. Be nice.


Ah "just a few more weeks". Same thing we've been told endlessly for the last TWO FUCKING YEARS.


----------



## Harvey

I agree with you on the waste water, but I think it's 50/50 about being done. Another variant will surely come. If it's like omicron we probably are getting done, if it's delta maybe not.

Some context on our company, I've been here 36 years and we've had plenty, dozens, hundreds of people quit. Never heard anyone mention the vibe in a bad way. Sorry man it bums me out. When you spend that much of your life working on something, you care about how it turns out. I do anyway. She was with us 18 years and she was excellent.

This bums me out because our people are bummed. Certainly been through worse, scary wise, 2008 for one. But this is a bit different.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> . The other side is holding onto this delusion that we can "stop" the pandemic with masks, vaccine passports, school closures, social distancing, and other measures like arbitrary limits on gathering sizes if only everyone would comply. We've done that for close to 2 years..


What?

You can watch sports in giant arenas. You can go to concerts. Schools are back (after a brief hiatus because they *didn’t have enough employees*).

You aren’t being limited in any way (except you occasionally have to wear a mask, which, apparently is the greatest burden you could possibly carry).

Stop whining. You don’t have it so hard.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> I do agree that both sides want it over. One side accepts that the only way out is going to involve everyone being exposed, many getting sick, and sadly, some dying. We have vaccines and treatments to minimize the harm caused, but there's no escaping that reality. The other side is holding onto this delusion that we can "stop" the pandemic with masks, vaccine passports, school closures, social distancing, and other measures like arbitrary limits on gathering sizes if only everyone would comply. We've done that for close to 2 years. If it worked it would've been over by now, and it clearly as failed, miserably. All we have to show for it is a lot of collateral damage. I think the scenario Harvey pointed out is just one example.


The kids got a point here. It’s easy to know or think we know what should have been done after the fact, you know, hindsight 20/20 and all but at this point I think this is right. Some of the posts were a little dramatic for sure but the collateral damage I think has been very real.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> Ah "just a few more weeks". Same thing we've been told endlessly for the last TWO FUCKING YEARS.





Harvey said:


> I agree with you on the waste water, but I think it's 50/50 about being done. Another variant will surely come…


Pessimistic thinking. Might as well not go skiing either. Conditions will probably be bad, there will be too many people, gully washers all spring.



Harvey said:


> Some context on our company, I've been here 36 years and we've had plenty, dozens, hundreds of people quit. Never heard anyone mention the vibe in a bad way. Sorry man it bums me out. When you spend that much of your life working on something, you care about how it turns out. I do anyway. She was with us 18 years and she was excellent.
> 
> This bums me out because our people are bummed. Certainly been through worse, scary wise, 2008 for one. But this is a bit different.


Maybe the vibe is bad? Do you offer remote work? What’s the working situation there? Cubicles?

Lots of people reevaluating their jobs now. I feel like places have to up their game if they want to retain employees (or hire new ones)


----------



## jasonwx

RIP Meatloaf 
“ l will do anything for love
But I won’t get vaxxed”

Come on. I couldn’t resist


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Yesterday we just had an employee quit because it was too sad to work at our company. Everyone is struggling emotionally, and she wants to freelance so she can be away from it. She left without another job lined up. I'm devastated by this.


My 2 cent as an outsider looking in.
She used COVID as an excuse. For whatever reason she wanted out and this was a convenient excuse for her to do just that.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> What?
> 
> You can watch sports in giant arenas. You can go to concerts. Schools are back (after a brief hiatus because they *didn’t have enough employees*).
> 
> You aren’t being limited in any way (except you occasionally have to wear a mask, which, apparently is the greatest burden you could possibly carry).
> 
> Stop whining. You don’t have it so hard.


Oh stop.
COVID has controlled every aspect of our lil buckaroos life. Still waiting for examples of this one. Bet he can't answer without using the words "I" or "me".


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> What?
> 
> You can watch sports in giant arenas. You can go to concerts. Schools are back (after a brief hiatus because they *didn’t have enough employees*).
> 
> You aren’t being limited in any way (except you occasionally have to wear a mask, which, apparently is the greatest burden you could possibly carry).
> 
> Stop whining. You don’t have it so hard.


You don't see a problem with being forced to cover your face in public indefinitely? Well I do. There's nothing offensive about my face, and I don't like being treated like a biohazard.

We also must as the questions why are we doing this, and what is the off ramp? I believe the answers are to score political points by making a show of "doing something" and the off ramp is "when I say so". Those are not good answers.


----------



## Harvey

MC2 said:


> Pessimistic thinking. Might as well not go skiing either. Conditions will probably be bad, there will be too many people, gully washers all spring.
> 
> Maybe the vibe is bad? Do you offer remote work? What’s the working situation there? Cubicles?
> 
> Lots of people reevaluating their jobs now. I feel like places have to up their game if they want to retain employees (or hire new ones)


Conditions are more often better than you think. I feel liberated on the skiing. With three vax and at least one covid, I'm thinking I'm probably good for the winter. I think must have had omi, but never felt it.

We are working 3 days in, 2 days at home. The people who are in definitely help cover for those who are out. My partner and I the only ones in every day. Clearly most would like to be home all the time. It's harder to collaborate, come up with a big idea, via zoom. We've got 3000 sq ft and at most 10 people in at a time. The inperson time isn't the issue IMO, email is the problem. The person who quit lives out of state and is full time at home.

I do think it's BS to say a person's individual reaction to something like this, isn't legit. Easy to criticize, but when you run a company peoples feelings effect everything.

We are in full time hiring mode, looking to fill 4 positions.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> You don't see a problem with being forced to cover your face in public indefinitely? Well I do. There's nothing offensive about my face, and I don't like being treated like a biohazard.


Dude you are cute! ?


----------



## Peter Minde

snoloco said:


> You don't see a problem with being forced to cover your face in public indefinitely? Well I do. There's nothing offensive about my face, and I don't like being treated like a biohazard.


Asymptomatic people can transmit covid. People who've been vaxxed can get covid and transmit it. Like me.


----------



## jasonwx

Mask wearing in public is the greatest thing since sliced bread. All of Asia has been doing this for ever. 
I don’t have to breath your air 
You don’t have breath in mine. 

But I’m cool with what ever people want to do


----------



## snoloco

Peter Minde said:


> Asymptomatic people can transmit covid. People who've been vaxxed can get covid and transmit it. Like me.


But if you're vaccinated it's not a big deal if you get exposed or infected, and you're basically asking for this to be permanent.



jasonwx said:


> Mask wearing in public is the greatest thing since sliced bread. All of Asia has been doing this for ever.
> I don’t have to breath your air
> You don’t have breath in mine.


No they haven't.



jasonwx said:


> But I’m cool with what ever people want to do


Ok, then I'm never wearing one again.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I agree with you on the waste water, but I think it's 50/50 about being done. Another variant will surely come. If it's like omicron we probably are getting done, if it's delta maybe not.


From what I've read . . . remember my background is biostatistical research not medicine . . . the way a virus spreads after mutating makes it's very unlikely that a later variant will be more transmissible AND more serious from a symptoms standpoint. The reason SARS didn't spread quite as far even though it was a pandemic was that people could stay healthy by simply avoiding close contact with anyone with symptoms. Same for MERS, the other more recent coronavirus. The fatality rate for anyone who got SARS or MERS was far higher than even the original strain of SARS-CoV-2. 

There was never a vaccine developed for SARS or MERS although the research done helped in the research for a COVID-19 vaccine. SARS disappeared for lack of hosts. Same happened for the 1918-20 pandemic. People who were sick were isolated and died terrible deaths fairly quickly. Hospitals learned how to keep their staff healthy with masking and keep the patients with the new disease in a separate ward so they didn't infect other patients.

A virus can't keep spreading if the host dies. Or if the host is obviously sick so that other potential hosts avoid them. So a new variant that can replicate while the host doesn't have any clue they are infected is much more likely to spread to another host.

What's happening with Omicron is that in another month or so there will be far more people in world with natural immunity and/or vaccine-induced immunity. How long natural immunity lasts is a bit unkown. But probably at least 3-6 months, if not longer.

Delta isn't gone yet, but probably will be by the end of February essentially worldwide.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> We are in full time hiring mode, looking to fill 4 positions.


Ya can work from home?
Whadya gotta be able to do?


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> Mask wearing in public is the greatest thing since sliced bread. All of Asia has been doing this for ever.
> I don’t have to breath your air
> You don’t have breath in mine.
> 
> But I’m cool with what ever people want to do


My impression is that after SARS hit Asia in 2002, that's when masking during flu season became the cultural norm. More in big cities but it wasn't a big deal if someone masked in the countryside either.

Air pollution in the big cities in Asia was the original reason people started masking. People in Japan have been masking on the subway for a few decades at least.

I discovered in 2020 that the Swiss have a cultural distaste for masking that is similar to the South. Face masks were outlawed in a few local jurisdictions (Cantons) because there were "gangs" in Switzerland that wore masks. Not that long ago, the laws were on the books in the 20th century. North Carolina has a law against face masks that had to be "suspended" in 2020. It was a law from the 1950s designed to combat the growing power off the KKK.

It was very clear by April 2020 that "culture matters" when it comes to how people view masking or any public health measures that require healthy individuals to change their behavior to slow community spread of a highly infectious disease. Politics is part of "culture" but it's far more complicated when looking at regional differences within N. America or on other continents.

For 2022, my thinking is based on the concept "think global, act local." I don't just consider what's going in NC or the southeast or even just the USA. The "new normal" will be different as of Feb 2022 in NYC or Chicago or SLC, as compared to Raleigh or Atlanta.


----------



## Peter Minde

snoloco said:


> But if you're vaccinated it's not a big deal if you get exposed or infected, and you're basically asking for this to be permanent.


"It's not a big deal." I call BS. It's a big deal when you infect someone with a compromised immune system.


----------



## Tjf1967

In Montana I would say 1 in every 1000 people has a mask on. Bozeman. I don't know what to think.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> There's nothing offensive about my face


Lol


Harvey said:


> The person who quit lives out of state and is full time at home.
> 
> I do think it's BS to say a person's individual reaction to something like this, isn't legit..


Yes, it would be bs… if someone said that.

Also, it sounds like that person didn't want to work for you anymore. Sorry if that bothers you, but it happened. As I said, lots of people are reevaluating their work/life balance.


----------



## 3dogs

Tjf1967 said:


> In Montana I would say 1 in every 1000 people has a mask on. Bozeman. I don't know what to think.


You're not in NY anymore!
Land of the free and the brave.


----------



## MarzNC

Tjf1967 said:


> In Montana I would say 1 in every 1000 people has a mask on. Bozeman. I don't know what to think.


It's fair to say that the regions/states/counties where there has been little interest in masking or vaccination since June 2020 that there are probably a lot more people who have already had COVID-19. Therefore more people with natural immunity who recovered without having serious symptoms and didn't need to be hospitalized. That doesn't mean they won't get Omicron. But it does mean they are less likely to need to be hospitalized. Combine that with the people who are vaccinated and the public health risk will be somewhat lower in Feb 2022 than it was in Feb 2021 or August 2021 for Delta.

The northeast is very different from the southeast and Rocky Mountain states. Looking at the recent stats, the northern midwest, northern northeast along the Canadian border have some characteristics in common. Colorado and Utah have probably already peaked for Omicron combined with the holiday surge since Thanksgiving.

My observations driving around in more than one region in 2020 and 2021 is that a town that depends on tourism is quite different from a small city that has a strong diverse economy. What I saw in Pagosa Springs, CO in Dec 2021 reminded me of Lake Placid in June 2020 or Hendersonville, NC in August 2020 or near Shawnee in July 2021. There weren't that many mandates in place but private businesses and locals were taking sensible precautions based on what was known at the time. On the drive to Colorado across I-40, my travel/ski buddy and I ate in restaurants in TN, OK, TX, CO, KS, and OH. No one cared if we masked, or if we didn't. Some servers were masked, some weren't. We always went either early or late when there were few other customers and didn't stay over an hour.

My ski buddy is a 65+ family physician who was pulled into help with COVID-19 patients in Dec 2020. He flew to meet me in Nashville, TN for the drive to CO. I decided not to fly months ago more because I didn't want to deal with full planes the week before Christmas than any fear of flying during an ongoing pandemic. Plus my RAV4 AWD is so much fun to drive.


----------



## MarzNC

Tjf1967 said:


> In Montana I would say 1 in every 1000 people has a mask on. Bozeman. I don't know what to think.


Have you been indoors in Bozeman much? If so, what type of places?


----------



## snoloco

Peter Minde said:


> "It's not a big deal." I call BS. It's a big deal when you infect someone with a compromised immune system.


No. We have the vaccine to prevent severe illness and make covid into a risk more comparable to that of cold/flu and other viruses. Did you know that people with compromised immune systems existed before covid? Are you suggesting that we permanently alter our lifestyle?


----------



## Peter Minde

snoloco said:


> No. We have the vaccine to prevent severe illness and make covid into a risk more comparable to that of cold=flu and other viruses. Did you know that people with compromised immune systems existed before covid? Are you suggesting that we permanently alter our lifestyle?



I am suggesting no such thing. I am suggesting that people think of the public good and not just themselves.


----------



## snoloco

Peter Minde said:


> I am suggesting no such thing.


I mean that is what you're suggesting. If not now then when is the appropriate time to remove mask mandates?



Peter Minde said:


> I am suggesting that people think of the public good and not just themselves.


 I got vaccinated and boosted at the first opportunity and that's all you'll get from me.


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> Are you suggesting that we permanently alter our lifestyle?


I mean…..you are considering a move to New Hampshire, seemingly because of the pandemic……isn’t that permanently altering your lifestyle?


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> You don't see a problem with being forced to cover your face in public indefinitely? Well I do. There's nothing offensive about my face, and I don't like being treated like a biohazard.
> 
> We also must as the questions why are we doing this, and what is the off ramp? I believe the answers are to score political points by making a show of "doing something" and the off ramp is "when I say so". Those are not good answers.


Forced???? WTF are you talking about.
Common, tell me what can't do in NYS. What has controlled every aspect of your life.
I I I I 
Me me me me 
Ain't about I or me.


----------



## MarzNC

Anyone remember the talk about the 1918 pandemic? There was masking for a while as a public safety measure, at least in some cities and towns. More importantly, that pandemic wasn't considered over on a global basis until 1920. That was without a vaccine but a very different situation in terms of how it spread between continents and countries.

December 2021








How 1918 Flu Pandemic Ended and What It Means for COVID-19


Most pandemics end in 2 to 3 years as the virus mutates and immunity builds. This happened in the 1918 flu pandemic, and it’s what experts hope will happen with the coronavirus.




www.healthline.com


----------



## MarzNC

Fair to say that Omicron has taken over from Delta pretty much everywhere. Denmark, UK, USA, and South Africa are among the best in terms of doing enough genomic sequencing to properly estimate what variants are around during a given period. Note that a slight variation of Omicron has already been identified. But it's not considered different enough to merit separate consideration. As was the case for a couple variations of Delta.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

snoloco said:


> I got vaccinated and boosted at the first opportunity and that's all you'll get from me.


And there it is. That’s the attitude that offends some of us

You don’t get to have a superior attitude because you did ONE thing even it’s the most important thing. You need to do everything that is required. You may feel the NY rules are excessive, but remember that the City was traumatized less than 2 years ago. As others have noted, this has become political and NY politics are driven by the City. If you can’t accept that you don’t belong in Upstate NY. For me, it’s still better than living in a red state where the governor is actively discouraging vaccination and other measures to mitigate the pandemic.

mm


----------



## Peter Minde

snoloco said:


> No. We have the vaccine to prevent severe illness and make covid into a risk more comparable to that of cold/flu and other viruses. Did you know that people with compromised immune systems existed before covid? Are you suggesting that we permanently alter our lifestyle?


Even if they've been vaccinated, immunocompromised people face risk of a more serious bout of covid.


----------



## MarzNC

Detected cases for the northeast probably peaked mid-Jan 2022 for the Omicron wave.


----------



## snoloco

MarzNC said:


> Anyone remember the talk about the 1918 pandemic? There was masking for a while as a public safety measure, at least in some cities and towns. More importantly, that pandemic wasn't considered over on a global basis until 1920. That was without a vaccine but a very different situation in terms of how it spread between continents and countries.
> 
> December 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How 1918 Flu Pandemic Ended and What It Means for COVID-19
> 
> 
> Most pandemics end in 2 to 3 years as the virus mutates and immunity builds. This happened in the 1918 flu pandemic, and it’s what experts hope will happen with the coronavirus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12167


Masking and all other measures were done in like 6 months in 1918. Not 22 months and counting. Just because there's still a pandemic, doesn't mean you have to restrict people's lives.


----------



## snoloco

Milo Maltbie said:


> And there it is. That’s the attitude that offends some of us
> 
> You don’t get to have a superior attitude because you did ONE thing even it’s the most important thing. You need to do everything that is required. You may feel the NY rules are excessive, but remember that the City was traumatized less than 2 years ago. As others have noted, this has become political and NY politics are driven by the City. If you can’t accept that you don’t belong in Upstate NY.


It's become a cult. You must get vaccinated and boosted and wear a mask and avoid gatherings and limit travel or you're selfish and want people to die. Fuck that. I got off this runaway train back in May because I knew nothing I did would ever be enough for people like you.



Milo Maltbie said:


> For me, it’s still better than living in a red state where the governor is actively discouraging vaccination and other measures to mitigate the pandemic.


If we elect someone like that in New York, then you'll only have yourself to blame. Hope you enjoy it.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> You must…


Maybe you can just *try* not being whiny? See how it feels?


----------



## Tjf1967

MarzNC said:


> Have you been indoors in Bozeman much? If so, what type of places?


No we were hanging out in a corn field.. ?.

I'n big sky now the workers are wearing them. The guests are not.


----------



## MarzNC

Tjf1967 said:


> No we were hanging out in a corn field.. ?.


Reason I asked for Bozeman is that I know people who travel but don't go indoors except into their lodging or for a restroom. Bozeman downtown seems quite different from the outlying areas where the new shopping centers have been built in recent years.

While traveling, I end up in supermarkets and restaurants, but not in many retail stores where locals are shopping. But I'm also not shopping much in person when at home besides in supermarkets.

In Pagosa Springs, CO a month ago perhaps 50% were masked in the Natural Grocery store. More like 20% in the Walmart. At Wolf Creek, employees were masked indoors. Customers were almost all masked in the lodge with the cafeteria and bar.  Masking was strongly suggested with signs but no one was asking people without a mask to mask up. Not so much masking in the larger restroom in the main lodge. I used it as a locker room (has 75¢ lockers and a nice big bench) and didn't bother to mask up most of the time when there was only 1-2 other women passing through quickly.

In VA/WV, employees are much more likely to be masked where I've been going than customers. In the past couple weeks that's meant Sheetz gas stations, Massanutten Resort, and Timberline Resort. At the Timberline lodge only a few seniors were masking indoors. The employees weren't masked.


----------



## raisingarizona

I think Sno has made some valid points.

His delivery for this crowd may not be winning many people over and I may not completely agree on all of it but I get a lot of how he’s feeling and where he’s coming from.

From my POV some of the pro-mask rule follower crowd on here sound exactly the same to me as far as emotionally fueled ranting and “whining”.


----------



## MC2

raisingarizona said:


> I think Sno has made some valid points.
> 
> His delivery for this crowd may not be winning many people over and I may not completely agree on all of it but I get a lot of how he’s feeling and where he’s coming from.
> 
> From my POV some of the pro-mask rule follower crowd on here sound exactly the same to me as far as emotionally fueled ranting and “whining”.


Everyone wants the pandemic to be over.

Not everyone is being a little bitch about it.


----------



## raisingarizona

MC2 said:


> Everyone wants the pandemic to be over.
> 
> Not everyone is being a little bitch about it.


No but from the looks of these forums there’s a lot of little bitches that can’t figure out how other people have a different opinion.

Covid has brought out the best in some and the worst in others. There’s something to learn in all of this me thinks. I haven’t figured it out yet but I’m gonna keep trying.


----------



## MC2

raisingarizona said:


> No but from the looks of these forums there’s a lot of little bitches that can’t figure out how other people have a different opinion.


There’s a difference between giving an opinion and whining like a baby because things aren’t going the way you want them to.

I see whining. You’re welcome to see it differently.


----------



## raisingarizona

MC2 said:


> There’s a difference between giving an opinion and whining like a baby because things aren’t going the way you want them to.
> 
> I see whining. You’re welcome to see it differently.


There’s a whole lot of people getting whiny, angry and generally carried away emotionally over someone having a different opinion. 

I’m simply pointing out the general hypocrisy on both sides. 

Carry on.


----------



## Harvey

This thread is doing a great job just barely staying open. Milo I bet you can express those same ideas without going all red state blue state on us.

Pandemic is like politics and religion because you probably can't change someone's mind. 

I did change my own mind. I did my own research! So busted.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> I did change my own mind. I did my own research! So busted.


Changed your mind from what to what?


----------



## G.ski

Tjf1967 said:


> In Montana I would say 1 in every 1000 people has a mask on. Bozeman. I don't know what to think.


Sounds like Dutchess county NY


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> No but from the looks of these forums there’s a lot of little bitches that can’t figure out how other people have a different opinion.
> ...There’s something to learn in all of this me thinks. I haven’t figured it out yet but I’m gonna keep trying.


_Tjf1967 said:_
_No we were hanging out in a corn field.._ ?.

I learned Bozeman has a corn field in the winter. So there’s that.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> _Tjf1967 said:_
> _No we were hanging out in a corn field.._ ?.
> 
> I learned Bozeman has a corn field in the winter. So there’s that.


NY has cornfield in the winter


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> Covid has brought out the best in some and the worst in others. There’s something to learn in all of this me thinks. I haven’t figured it out yet but I’m gonna keep trying.


Good point


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> Just because there's still a pandemic, doesn't mean you have to restrict people's lives.


How are people's lives being restricted?
How has COVID controlled ever aspect of your life?
You bring the drama Lil buckaroo


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> How are people's lives being restricted?
> How has COVID controlled ever aspect of your life?
> You bring the drama Lil buckaroo


If South Africa is a guide, there won’t even be masking rules in a couple of weeks. It just feels like a classic “why won’t Whiteface open the lifts sooner?!?” Snoloco rant.

Like I said, everyone wants COVID to be over, only a few people are saying “I want an Oompah Loompah NOW!”


----------



## jamesdeluxe

MC2 said:


> If South Africa is a guide, there won’t even be masking rules in a couple of weeks.


At Plattekill yesterday, I was one of a small handful of people wearing a mask in the crowded lodge. Is that the way it is everywhere?


----------



## Campgottagopee

jamesdeluxe said:


> At Plattekill yesterday, I was one of a small handful of people wearing a mask in the crowded lodge. Is that the way it is everywhere?


It was that way in the grocery store this AM. I walked in with my mask, and then took it off as I was seemingly the one in there. Put it on at the register to check out.


----------



## Harvey

How my mind has changed.

I don't personally feel the threat of covid the way I did before. Three shots, covid alpha once, and let's face it I've probably had omni too. After I went to that gymnastics meet with 1000 mostly unmasked and didn't get sick, at all, I'm thinking I'm probably ok, for a least a while.

Obviously that's completely unscientific. I'll get tested if I feel bad, or come close to someone who has symptoms. I still wear my mask indoors, unless the place is empty. Even then too if it is a rule (Gore 7:30am). I'm doing it to protect others, and also follow the rules. I'm skiing normally, except maybe avoiding the gondi at times. Not sure the gondi thing is actually logical, but whatever.

For me the only time a mask is really a PITA is coming into a lodge midday. Unless you leave your mask looped around your ears all day, you have to take your helmet off. As a boy, once the trees are in play, I really don't have to come inside at all midday, so looking forward to that.

Not saying my way is right or anything like that. It's just what I am doing. I could change my mind again.

Flame away.


----------



## jasonwx

At loon it was 30%
In our local shoprite about 99% wear them
The way I see it
If the employees have to wear them. I will too. Showing respect to the people that have to deal with the public.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

As one of the apparent invincibles, I hope to stay that way so I put on a mask during crowded indoor situations. My trip to Europe next week will put that to the test.


----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> As one of the apparent invincibles, I hope to stay that way so I put on a mask during crowded indoor situations. My trip to Europe next week will put that to the test.


jd, how many times have ya been tested and what type(s) of test(s) have ya took?
Have fun on yer trip to yurp. Good luck.


----------



## raisingarizona

I’m convinced the home tests are a useless scam. I won’t buy them.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> jd, how many times have ya been tested and what type(s) of test(s) have ya took?
> Have fun on yer trip to yurp. Good luck.


Ten times over the past year: four PCRs, six antigens (no at-home tests). Yeah, I know -- that few tests equate anecdotal results and I may have been asymptomatic.


----------



## jasonwx

tirolski said:


> jd, how many times have ya been tested and what type(s) of test(s) have ya took?
> Have fun on yer trip to yurp. Good luck.


Between 30-50 times for me


----------



## raisingarizona

I agree with Sno in a lot of ways and I think that masking may have slowed down the process of getting us beyond this junk. Obviously that’s not the moral thing to say but nature doesn’t care about human concepts such as morals and ethics. Nature kills off the vulnerable and weak all the time for a healthier herd and ecosystem. You can think I’m a dick for saying that but that’s reality.

Of course we had to try to protect people and do what we thought was right but did that give us the best possible outcome? That’s hard to say and we’ll probably never really know but I I think it’s all questionable.


----------



## raisingarizona

jasonwx said:


> Between 30-50 times for me


Dude. Why?

I’ve never tested myself.


----------



## jasonwx

raisingarizona said:


> Dude. Why?


I love the feeling of the swap 

Jk. I work for a small college


----------



## raisingarizona

jasonwx said:


> I love the feeling of the swap
> 
> Jk. I work for a small college


Ahh, I see.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> For me the only time a mask is really a PITA is coming into a lodge midday. Unless you leave your mask looped around your ears all day, you have to take your helmet off. As a boy, once the trees are in play, I really don't have to come inside at all midday, so looking forward to that.


I rigged up a Primal mask so that I can hang it around my neck. That way I always have it available as needed. I like the Primal because there is a plastic frame that keeps it away from the mouth. It also stays in place better if talking.

For just a restroom break, I may or may not use the Primal depending on the situation.

Timberline in WV redid the old trail level restrooms that had exterior doors over the summer. The old restrooms were very small. Perfect set up now for a place that isn't too busy that often. There are three unisex private restrooms with exterior doors, and three that are indoors. They added a regular multi-stall restroom opposite the ticket desk on the lower level, which also has doors to the base area slope.


----------



## tirolski

.


MarzNC said:


> For just a restroom break, I may or may not use the Primal depending on the situation.
> 
> Timberline in WV redid the old trail level restrooms that had exterior doors over the summer. The old restrooms were very small. Perfect set up now for a place that isn't too busy that often. There are three unisex private restrooms with exterior doors, and three that are indoors. They added a regular multi-stall restroom opposite the ticket desk on the lower level, which also has doors to the base area slope.


Sometimes it just depends ...


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> Of course we had to try to protect people and do what we thought was right but did that give us the best possible outcome? That’s hard to say and we’ll probably never really know but I I think it’s all questionable.


I watched the early lab tests showing how aerosols spread. They were done in 2020 in Japan and Europe. Once it was clear that SARS-CoV-2 can float around in tiny aerosols and doesn't need droplets (like from a sneeze), the fact that Japan had more limited community spread in the first half of 2020 made sense. Even with full subway cars and buses.

The problem with too much emphasis on masking after vaccination became an option for all adults is that it really only makes a big difference if everyone is masked. Unless someone is using KN95 or N95 and is completely consistent about how it fits and when they have it on, a mask isn't going to be fully protective against infection.

In the early days, wearing a mask meant strangers tended to stay farther away. That still seems to be the case when a place isn't that crowded. I didn't mask until it was required around April 2020 and I don't always mask. Distance and keeping the potential exposure to a stranger to a short time (under 5 min) is far more effective. There are times I simply hold my breath while walking out of a gas station after being in the restroom.


----------



## witch hobble

Harvey said:


> For me the only time a mask is really a PITA is coming into a lodge midday. Unless you leave your mask looped around your ears all day, you have to take your helmet off. As a boy, once the trees are in play, I really don't have to come inside at all midday, so looking forward to that.




Do you not feel that a neck warmer pulled up over mouth and nose qualifies as a mask. It’s not as good as medical style or n95, but many people are using cloth ear loop masks. If the material is the same, don’t you yhink it’s adequate?


----------



## MarzNC

So far, I've only bothered to get tested once. Felt off one afternoon after a trip in July 2021 to PA/NYC. Slept it off and felt fine the next morning. Back then, getting a free PCR test with no waiting was easy at a lab near my house. Came back negative.

My daughter and her BF flew to Boston in early Jan 2022. The friend they stayed with for a few days happened to come across a drugstore with rapid tests. She gave them a box (2 tests). We decided to have the BF use them a couple days after they returned to NC. He has allergies, so it's hard to tell if his symptoms are from the typical reasons or minor COVID-19 symptoms. He's working full-time, mostly in-person at the office. They are both fully vaccinated and boosted (worked in healthcare in early 2021). He tested negative the first time and 48 hours later. She never had symptoms. I told her not to bother to get tested at Student Health (she's still in college).


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> Milo I bet you can express those same ideas without going all red state blue state on us.


The scientific issues are all mostly being resolved, and the interesting questions are mostly political because one side rejects the science. It's clear that vaccination, lenient work from home and paid sick leave policies and support for hospoitals that are experiencing a surge of patients is the way out of this, but one party has made anti-vaxxers a mainstream thing. It's the same dynamic that prevents meaningful action to address global warming. Avoid unpleasant policy solutions by denying the obvious truth of the science. 
We can't discuss politics because politics has become intentionally divisive. We can't even agree on who won an election, or even how to count votes. It's a slow motion constiutional crisis, and if we ignore it we're screwed. 
I'm out now. I said everything I have to say on the topic. I won't post here again.

mm


----------



## MarzNC

witch hobble said:


> Do you not feel that a neck warmer pulled up over mouth and nose qualifies as a mask. It’s not as good as medical style or n95, but many people are using cloth ear loop masks. If the material is the same, don’t you yhink it’s adequate?


Nope, not the same. Has to do with how big the "holes" are in the material on a microscopic level. Out west, the rules about what qualifies as a "mask" indoors are much clearer. Aerosols are really tiny.

Cloth masks are also not as effective as a surgical mask because of the internal structure of the material. There is a reason they aren't used by healthcare professionals working in a hospital. But someone who is aware enough to wear a cloth mask consistently might also be aware enough to avoid lengthy exposure to people who are potentially infectious and don't even know it.

For anyone who wants to see a scientific comparison at the microscopic level:








						Microstructure analysis and image-based modelling of face masks for COVID-19 virus protection - Communications Materials
					

Face masks are key for slowing the spread of COVID-19. Here, the microstructure of three common masks is determined by x-ray tomography, combined with image-based modelling of droplet permeability, revealing that N95 masks are best for droplet filtration.




					www.nature.com


----------



## MarzNC

Anyone remember the candle test by Bill Nye, the Science Guy?

July 2020








						Coronavirus FAQ: What Does It Mean If I Can Blow Out A Candle While Wearing A Mask?
					

The candle test is one way to assess (roughly) the effectiveness of a mask. If your mask passes the test, you can help it do an even better job with some simple hacks.




					www.npr.org


----------



## witch hobble

MarzNC said:


> Nope, not the same. Has to do with how big the "holes" are in the material on a microscopic level. Out west, the rules about what qualifies as a "mask" indoors are much clearer. Aerosols are really tiny.
> 
> Cloth masks are also not as effective as a surgical mask because of the internal structure of the material. There is a reason they aren't used by healthcare professionals working in a hospital. But someone who is aware enough to wear a cloth mask consistently might also be aware enough to avoid lengthy exposure to people who are potentially infectious and don't even know it.
> 
> For anyone who wants to see a scientific comparison at the microscopic level:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Microstructure analysis and image-based modelling of face masks for COVID-19 virus protection - Communications Materials
> 
> 
> Face masks are key for slowing the spread of COVID-19. Here, the microstructure of three common masks is determined by x-ray tomography, combined with image-based modelling of droplet permeability, revealing that N95 masks are best for droplet filtration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com


I understand all that. But the fact of the matter is….during the early days of the pandemic when there was a shortage of surgical masks, there was a big effort to increase production (both by businesses as well as home seamstresses) to make cloth masks. So MANY people are using cloth masks, but they have ear loops and the general shape of a surgical mask. But if the same material is used for a necky style mask, what is the difference? If we all know that masks are often just signaling to others that you are trying to comply, or on the flip side, that you take the virus seriously and would like people to give you space and respect, why not just use a necky at a ski area? 

I fear that this is an area where the effort to limit the spread lost some of the low info, right leaning folks as we entered summer 2020. 

We shouldn’t punish people who are making an attempt to do good because they are not doing the absolute best practices.


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> I agree with Sno in a lot of ways and I think that masking may have slowed down the process of getting us beyond this junk. Obviously that’s not the moral thing to say but nature doesn’t care about human concepts such as morals and ethics. Nature kills off the vulnerable and weak all the time for a healthier herd and ecosystem. You can think I’m a dick for saying that but that’s reality.
> 
> Of course we had to try to protect people and do what we thought was right but did that give us the best possible outcome? That’s hard to say and we’ll probably never really know but I I think it’s all questionable.


All emotions aside I agree in part. However the real danger for all of us, even if you can be 100% immune from covid, it has been the overloading on hospitals. I don't know about you but if I have a medical emergency, injury or illness, I expect first class medical care. The covid burden on hospitals and staff is profound and honestly that's about the only thing that is concerning at the moment. 

Whether masks still help or not is irrelevant. If it helps others, especially employees feel more comfortable then I'm all for it. It's not really that hard to be considerate of others but some people really have a hard time looking beyond themselves. 

I consider the daily sacrifices made by my grandparents here in the USA during WW2. By comparison wearing a mask is trivial.


----------



## Harvey

witch hobble said:


> Do you not feel that a neck warmer pulled up over mouth and nose qualifies as a mask. It’s not as good as medical style or n95, but many people are using cloth ear loop masks. If the material is the same, don’t you yhink it’s adequate?



Honestly I have no idea. I assume n95 is best and anything else is less. Beyond that I'm not qualified to say what is a mask.

Once at Gore i used my balaclava to pee at the saddle, but i was pretty sure that was bs.


----------



## raisingarizona

Andy_ROC said:


> All emotions aside I agree in part. However the real danger for all of us, even if you can be 100% immune from covid, it has been the overloading on hospitals. I don't know about you but if I have a medical emergency, injury or illness, I expect first class medical care. The covid burden on hospitals and staff is profound and honestly that's about the only thing that is concerning at the moment.
> 
> Whether masks still help or not is irrelevant. If it helps others, especially employees feel more comfortable then I'm all for it. It's not really that hard to be considerate of others but some people really have a hard time looking beyond themselves.
> 
> I consider the daily sacrifices made by my grandparents here in the USA during WW2. By comparison wearing a mask is trivial.


That’s totally fair as well. I’m ok wearing a mask if it’s required by a business or it puts others at ease, for now. At some point though we have to draw a line. It’s extremely easy to get carried away in all of this, especially if safety cops go unchecked and people want public mask wearing to stay as the new normal. 

As far as American health care goes, I’m insured now but before I was I didn’t expect shit. It was basically the bare bones of care and a see ya later, here’s a 1200 dollar bill for that x Ray and ace bandage. Heal up buddy. I’m 46 and I didn’t have insurance until two years ago. 

You must have very expensive health insurance with such high expectations. Most Americans don’t have that luxury.


----------



## witch hobble

Harvey said:


> Honestly I have no idea. I assume n95 is best and anything else is less. Beyond that I'm not qualified to say what is a mask.
> 
> Once at Gore i used my balaclava to pee at the saddle, but i was pretty sure that was bs.


*full disclosure: I live and ski in NH and have not even entered a lodge since March 2020. I make sure my necky is pulled up when in the corrals or around people. 

What are other people wearing? What is being enforced (either by mountain personnel or courtnof public opinion/stink eye)? Did you go in the lodge last year? And if so probably not with an n95?

Also……why not just pee in the great outdoors? I’ll take fresh air and social distance over ski lodge bathrooms and masks and potential exposure.


----------



## MarzNC

witch hobble said:


> We shouldn’t punish people who are making an attempt to do good because they are not doing the absolute best practices.


Personally I don't care if someone uses a buff or gaiter or cloth mask indoors to cover up their nose and mouth at a ski area. Was simply answering the question "is a buff the same as a cloth mask."

At Wolf Creek I was quite impressed with how many guys would pull up their buff when they walked inside. Awareness that they should try to help slow community spread was clearly high among the locals. They know that any hint of spread traced back to WCSA could mean no more indoor dining. There wasn't any indoor dining at WCSA the entire 2020-21 season.


----------



## Harvey

witch hobble said:


> *full disclosure: I live and ski in NH and have not even entered a lodge since March 2020. I make sure my necky is pulled up when in the corrals or around people.
> 
> What are other people wearing? What is being enforced (either by mountain personnel or courtnof public opinion/stink eye)? Did you go in the lodge last year? And if so probably not with an n95?
> 
> Also……why not just pee in the great outdoors? I’ll take fresh air and social distance over ski lodge bathrooms and masks and potential exposure.


If you look at my original post I tried to imply that once the woods open up, I won't go inside. When only showcase is open, or terrain is very limited peeing on the trail doesn't seem like a great option

N95 is my mask. Last year, I skied in it all day. I read later that if you're n95 is wet, like from breathe, it's not much better than any other mask.

I didn't go inside last year. 

This year so far I booted up inside (lodge is empty at 7:30) and maskup to leave if I leave before end of day.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Personally I don't care if someone uses a buff or gaiter or cloth mask indoors to cover up their nose and mouth at a ski area.


I don't either. This is what I was saying about the change in me. I'm wearing a mask for others, and for respect.


----------



## raisingarizona

I’m really tired of stupid rules being enforced or public judgement/shaming. Ski area staffing is already having problems retaining employees, does anyone want to enforce dumb rules on an already frustrated public for minimum wage? I can’t support any of that.

If you are concerned about you and yours well being then you should probably be the one focused on social distancing and not judging others.


----------



## witch hobble

Harvey said:


> If you look at my original post I tried to imply that once the woods open up, I won't go inside. When only showcase is open, or terrain is very limited peeing on the trail doesn't seem like a great option


Typical freeheeler….. doesn’t want to fuss with bindings! I step off trail and find a tree or snowmaking shack to piss behind.

I’m lucky to be at a point where my kids are fully functioning/independent skiers. Most of my days are half days. I have totally adapted to booting up at the car and staying outside. The mountain is missing out on the ~$100 or so that I might have spent at the bar over the course of a season. Sorry bartenders! 

I wear the gaiter, have a surgical mask in a ziplock in my coat pocket, and stay away from people.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> I’m really tired of stupid rules being enforced or public judgement/shaming. Ski area staffing is already having problems retaining employees, does anyone want to enforce dumb rules on an already frustrated public for minimum wage? I can’t support any of that.


I totally agree about stupid rules, whatever they may be. I do agree with following mandates, even if I disagree with them, simply because the only ones who can get hurt by someone not following them is the biz owner, not the one violating the mandate. I don't want to be the reason __________ had to get fined, closed up, or whatevs.


raisingarizona said:


> If you are concerned about you and yours well being then you should probably be the one focused on social distancing and not judging others.


Completely agree with this. If you're heading to a place where you know people won't be wearing masks don't get all bothered by it when you see it. The reverse of that is if you're heading to a place where you know masks are required don't be bothered when you see it.


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> The scientific issues are all mostly being resolved, and the interesting questions are mostly political because one side rejects the science. It's clear that vaccination, lenient work from home and paid sick leave policies and support for hospoitals that are experiencing a surge of patients is the way out of this, but one party has made anti-vaxxers a mainstream thing. It's the same dynamic that prevents meaningful action to address global warming. Avoid unpleasant policy solutions by denying the obvious truth of the science.
> We can't discuss politics because politics has become intentionally divisive. We can't even agree on who won an election, or even how to count votes. It's a slow motion constiutional crisis, and if we ignore it we're screwed.
> I'm out now. I said everything I have to say on the topic. I won't post here again.
> 
> mm



Milo I'm not chasing you off. You're a bit of a crank for sure, but from what I see, you think a lot about common good.

Another approach, that makes the same point, and hey everyone knows what you mean:

"I like living in a state where the govt is actively encouraging vaccination and other measures to mitigate the pandemic."


----------



## Harvey

witch hobble said:


> Typical freeheeler….. doesn’t want to fuss with bindings!



This is very funny. I never thought about this but actually think you might be right. 

I have to take off my skis to go inside right?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> This is very funny.


I thought it was cleverly funny as well


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> How my mind has changed.
> 
> I don't personally feel the threat of covid the way I did before. Three shots, covid alpha once, and let's face it I've probably had omni too.


I think most feel this way. I know I do.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> I totally agree about stupid rules, whatever they may be. I do agree with following mandates, even if I disagree with them, simply because the only ones who can get hurt by someone not following them is the biz owner, not the one violating the mandate. I don't want to be the reason __________ had to get fined, closed up, or whatevs.
> 
> Completely agree with this. If you're heading to a place where you know people won't be wearing masks don't get all bothered by it when you see it. The reverse of that is if you're heading to a place where you know masks are required don't be bothered when you see it.


Yep. All of that. I’m not trying to rock the boat and if something is posted I respect that.


----------



## snoloco

raisingarizona said:


> At some point though we have to draw a line. It’s extremely easy to get carried away in all of this, especially if safety cops go unchecked and people want public mask wearing to stay as the new normal.



From my experience if you give these people an inch, they'll take a mile. I won't give them an inch. Assume anything being done now will be permanent, or at least done every winter. I don't see how January 2023 will be any different than January 2022.


----------



## Andy_ROC

snoloco said:


> From my experience if you give these people an inch, they'll take a mile. I won't give them an inch. Assume anything being done now will be permanent, or at least done every winter. I don't see how January 2023 will be any different than January 2022.


What people are you talking about taking a mile and what are you going to do about it? 

On the counterpoint I'm in a crowded Wegmans today and there's hundreds of people in there complying with masks. I saw only 6 out of hundreds without masks. I have zero fear of the virus but it takes a special kind of self-centered ass hole lacking common decency toward their fellow man to strut around maskless without regard to others.

If you don't like it then don't go.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> From my experience if you give these people an inch, they'll take a mile. I won't give them an inch. Assume anything being done now will be permanent, or at least done every winter. I don't see how January 2023 will be any different than January 2022.


Do you know what happens when you assume lil buckaroo?


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Do you know what happens when you assume lil buckaroo?


This is snoloco’s personality. It’s constant chicken little, sky-is-falling pessimism.

Hate to say it, but this “doomerism” is pretty common in younger generations. It’s as if people don’t have real problems anymore so they get all worked up about trivial shit (“A mask!?!?! The horror!!!! And I’ll PROBABLY have to do it FOREVER thanks to NEW YORK STATE and DICTATOR KATHY HOCHUL”)

Personally, I think snoloco needs to get laid and suddenly the (tiny, inconsequential, fleeting) things he complains about won’t matter as much to him. Nobody is thinking about lift capacity when they’re screwing


----------



## Brownski

MC2 said:


> Nobody is thinking about lift capacity when they’re screwing


Maybe just at the end, you know, when it’s time to finish


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> Maybe just at the end, you know, when it’s time to finish


Izzat speaking from experience and/or just saying?


----------



## snoloco

Andy_ROC said:


> What people are you talking about taking a mile and what are you going to do about it?


I'm saying that no level of caution is ever enough for people like you. You'll still call me selfish no matter what so I just won't do anything. If I can ignore a mask requirement and get away with it, that's what I do.



Andy_ROC said:


> On the counterpoint I'm in a crowded Wegmans today and there's hundreds of people in there complying with masks. I saw only 6 out of hundreds without masks. I have zero fear of the virus but it takes a special kind of self-centered ass hole lacking common decency toward their fellow man to strut around maskless without regard to others.


My guess is there's a mandate in that area, so most people are only wearing masks so they don't get kicked out or fined. It's not lacking common decency to go unmasked when masks don't work, and the mandate in New York State has objectively failed.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> Maybe just at the end, you know, when it’s time to finish


I don’t know. Thinking about lift capacity sometimes helps me stay in the game long enough, that and sometimes my grandmother or baseball.


----------



## witch hobble

raisingarizona said:


> I don’t know. Thinking about lift capacity sometimes helps me stay in the game long enough, that and sometimes my grandmother or baseball.


Try thinking of your grandma riding the Kanc8 at Loon with a bunch of members of the 1996 Yankees.


----------



## Andy_ROC

snoloco said:


> I'm saying that no level of caution is ever enough for people like you. You'll still call me selfish no matter what so I just won't do anything. If I can ignore a mask requirement and get away with it, that's what I do.
> 
> 
> My guess is there's a mandate in that area, so most people are only wearing masks so they don't get kicked out or fined. It's not lacking common decency to go unmasked when masks don't work, and the mandate in New York State has objectively failed.



First of all you're just talking shit in the first paragraph. I already told you I have no fear of covid but I also can think beyond myself to know that it's not all about me. You obviously can not, which is the absolute definition of entitled and selfish. 

You come to this forum and your selfishness and lack of maturity is blatant. Whether it be complaining about having to wear a mask in the lodge or because you couldn't find a seat to eat lunch in the location you wanted at the time you want. Or your complaints that they aren't loading the lift to your satisfaction. Or earlier in the season your complaining that the mountains weren't updating their websites with projected opening dates and it wasn't giving you enough time to plan. My God the humanity. You're negativity is beyond ridiculous.

Contrary to what you may have been told all your life, you're not special nor more important than anyone else.


----------



## snoloco

Andy_ROC said:


> Contrary to what you may have been told all your life, you're not special nor more important than anyone else.


The same applies to anyone who demands restrictions to sooth their irrational fears.


----------



## Peter Minde

The thread that keeps on giving.


----------



## JTG

raisingarizona said:


> I don’t know. Thinking about lift capacity sometimes helps me stay in the game long enough, that and sometimes my grandmother or baseball.


You guys got this all wrong. If ever there were a person for whom thinking about lift capacity (and other lift related things) would provide a chubby…..


----------



## Campgottagopee

witch hobble said:


> Try thinking of your grandma riding the Kanc8 at Loon with a bunch of members of the 1996 Yankees.


OMG!!! FTW -- pure gold, pure gold


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> The same applies to anyone who demands restrictions to sooth their irrational fears.


You realize you're referring to government, right?


----------



## x10003q

snoloco said:


> I'm saying that no level of caution is ever enough for people like you. You'll still call me selfish no matter what so I just won't do anything. If I can ignore a mask requirement and get away with it, that's what I do.
> 
> 
> My guess is there's a mandate in that area, so most people are only wearing masks so they don't get kicked out or fined. It's not lacking common decency to go unmasked when masks don't work, and the mandate in New York State has objectively failed.


How can you be expected to be taken seriously when you constantly repeat the lie that masks do not work?


----------



## Harvey

Let's all try to take it down a notch, maybe kill the moron stuff.

Re masks working: I think the definition of "work" is in play. The fact that there was almost zero flu last year indicates to me that masks and social distancing have some impact on the spread of a virus. Covid seems more contagious than flu, and how much masks work, who knows. Also I'm sure there is a big diff between a fully and properly masked n95 population and whatever we are actually doing.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

I wasn't going to post here anymore but I spoke to an old friend who is a retired epidemiologist. This is some of what she told me.

1- Michael Osterholm (who is on often MSNBC and CNN) and Dr. Fauci are the to most credible public experts, She knows them both.
2- We're gonna live with COVID and annual vaccinations the rest of our lives. The virus mutates too fast for to be effective for longer than that.
3- She wears a mask only in large crowded indoor spaces, or if it's necessary to make others comfortable. We were all wearing masks yesterday at an indoor gathering of maybe 200 people. No one checked vaccination status, but my friends are mostly vaxxed.

In other news, we got a briefing from the local infectious disease doctors this morning. NYC infections are dramatically down, and are now the lowest in the state. Warren County (Gore) has one of the highest infection rates, but it's coming down now as well. It seems the Omicron wave is passing, It has caused way more infections than Delta but about the same amount of serious disease. That seems like good news to me.

My observation is that, except for NY, masking is mostly limited to employees on a corporate payroll. In the City, proof of vaccination is required for a lot of ordinary activities. Upstate is in between with a lot of masking but few vax requirements. I think that's because NYS rules are largely driven by the experience of the City two years ago. It's gonna take some time for NYC to get back to its normal, and it's gonna require some patience from everyone.
mm


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Re masks working: I think the definition of "work" is in play. The fact that there was almost zero flu last year indicates to me that masks and social distancing have some impact on the spread of a virus. Covid seems more contagious than flu, and how much masks work, who knows.


Not going to look it up, but the comparisons for some state in the midwest comparing counties that had school mask mandates with those counties that didn't was pretty clear in 2020. Requiring students, staff, and teachers to mask reduced community spread. There was a similar pattern in terms of kids being detected with COVID-19 in 2021 in NC counties. In NC, every school district was making their own decision about masking and testing approaches for the 2021-22 school year.

That said, the situation has changed with Omicron and the fact that kids ages 5 and up can get vaccinated. Even though the numbers aren't that big, the increasing number of younger kids who are being hospitalized for COVID-19 symptoms is a concern. Although the stats are a bit confusing because detected cases in hospitals are now a mix of people admitted because of COVID-19 and those who tested positive who were in the hospital for a different reason.

Masks work. But the reality is that most community spread after mid-2021 was from social interactions. The number of families who would plan to mask up for a Thanksgiving gathering is probably pretty small, even in NY/NJ/New England.

Omicron changed the situation in November 2021. Just as Delta did in June 2021. The availability of vaccines and improved treatments if COVID-19 is detected early is very different in January 2022 than January 2021.


----------



## MarzNC

Milo Maltbie said:


> I wasn't going to post here anymore but I apoke to an old friend who is a retired epidemiolgist. This is some of what she told me.
> 1- Michael Osterholm (who is on often MSNBC and CNN) and Dr. Fauci are the to most credible public experts, She knows them both.
> 2- We're gonna live with COVID and annual vaccinations the rest of our lives. The virus mutates too fast for to be effective for longer than that.
> 3- She wears a mask only in large crowded indoor spaces, or if it's necessary to make others comfortable. We were all wearing masks yesterday at an indoor gathering of maybe 200 people. No one checked vaccination status, but my friends are mostly vaxxed.


Thanks for posting. That all makes sense to me.

The key is that SARS-CoV-2 caused a pandemic on a scale that probably hasn't happened before in human history. That means as long as there are large populations who don't have vaccine-induced immunity or natural immunity from a relatively recent variant, the coronavirus will continue to have mutations that find new hosts.

Think global, act local.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> I wasn't going to post here anymore but I spoke to an old friend who is a retired epidemiologist. This is some of what she told me.
> 
> 1- Michael Osterholm (who is on often MSNBC and CNN) and Dr. Fauci are the to most credible public experts, She knows them both.
> 2- We're gonna live with COVID and annual vaccinations the rest of our lives. The virus mutates too fast for to be effective for longer than that.
> 3- She wears a mask only in large crowded indoor spaces, or if it's necessary to make others comfortable. We were all wearing masks yesterday at an indoor gathering of maybe 200 people. No one checked vaccination status, but my friends are mostly vaxxed.
> 
> In other news, we got a briefing from the local infectious disease doctors this morning. NYC infections are dramatically down, and are now the lowest in the state. Warren County (Gore) has one of the highest infection rates, but it's coming down now as well. It seems the Omicron wave is passing, It has caused way more infections than Delta but about the same amount of serious disease. That seems like good news to me.
> 
> My observation is that, except for NY, masking is mostly limited to employees on a corporate payroll. In the City, proof of vaccination is required for a lot of ordinary activities. Upstate is in between with a lot of masking but few vax requirements. I think that's because NYS rules are largely driven by the experience of the City two years ago. It's gonna take some time for NYC to get back to its normal, and it's gonna require some patience from everyone.
> mm


Thanks for sharing this, MM


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> Think global, act local.


Dang!!
I like it!!!


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> Dang!!
> I like it!!!


Can't take credit for "think global, act local." The co-founder and CEO of the only company I worked for after grad school was from the UK originally. He was one of my biostatistics professors before he decided to move away from academics and into industry. He would say it often as the company grew from a startup to a publicly traded company with almost 20,000 employees in multiple countries. Smart man.

One of the reasons I got to travel internationally as a working adult was because Quintiles had clients in Europe and started up operations in China by the 1990s. On top of lots of international travel with my parents growing up, it's easy for me to have some understanding of why "culture matters" during a pandemic.


----------



## snoloco

When I say that some want to make masking permanent, shit like this is what I'm referring to.









Oregonians to weigh in on making masks in schools, healthcare settings permanent


PORTLAND, Ore. — The Oregon Health Authority is holding two public hearings Monday to discuss putting masking inside schools and health care settings in place indefinitely, as well as to take public comment on vaccine requirements for educators and health care workers. If the proposals are...




katu.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> When I say that some want to make masking permanent, shit like this is what I'm referring to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oregonians to weigh in on making masks in schools, healthcare settings permanent
> 
> 
> PORTLAND, Ore. — The Oregon Health Authority is holding two public hearings Monday to discuss putting masking inside schools and health care settings in place indefinitely, as well as to take public comment on vaccine requirements for educators and health care workers. If the proposals are...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> katu.com


Don't let shit like that bother you, lil buddy.

There are folks that want to ban pitbulls, too. I have a pitbull and he's one of the nicest dogs I've ever had.
Try not to let stupid shit from Portland Oregon bother you. 

I def think masking served a purpose during this pandemic and was needed. Could it be needed again??? Don't know but I'll leave that up to others and respect their decision.

I just learned that a coworker of mine had his mother pass away due to COVID. It's still real.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

snoloco said:


> I don't see how January 2023 will be any different than January 2022.


I don't think he's wrong. I don't know that he's right either. I thought January 2022 would be a lot different than January 2021.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

This January is better than last, and way better than March 2020. Last January I couldn't travel. This year I've been to funerals and a wedding, and visited family all over the country. Just being vaccinated reduced my anxiety level, which is nice.

mm


----------



## witch hobble

Campgottagopee said:


> Don't let shit like that bother you, lil buddy.
> 
> There are folks that want to ban pitbulls, too. I have a pitbull and he's one of the nicest dogs I've ever had.
> Try not to let stupid shit from Portland Oregon bother you.
> 
> I def think masking served a purpose during this pandemic and was needed. Could it be needed again??? Don't know but I'll leave that up to others and respect their decision.
> 
> I just learned that a coworker of mine had his mother pass away due to COVID. It's still real.


How much life advice has been offered up to the guy over the years? How much has even registered?


----------



## Campgottagopee

witch hobble said:


> How much life advice has been offered up to the guy over the years? How much has even registered?


Countless
Nothing will register until he gets punched. Or laid. Or both at the same time?


----------



## Harvey

IMO @snoloco 2.0 is most improved, including investing energy in seeing the other side.

He's still opinionated as fuçk, but who isn't?


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> IMO @snoloco 2.0 is most improved, including investing energy in seeing the other side.


I think you’re mistaking “seeing the other side” for “whining about the side he doesn’t like, creating strawmen, and not even reading the links he posts”:


----------



## Harvey

I think you are focusing on all the things he still does that he always did. I am focusing on what has changed. If you don't see the difference, not sure what to tell you, you don't see it.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> I think you are focusing on all the things he still does that he always did. I am focusing on what has changed. If you don't see the difference, not sure what to tell you, you don't see it.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> He's still opinionated as fuçk, but who isn't?


"If we have data let’s look at the data. If all we have is opinions let’s go with mine.” , Ole Miss grad James Barksdale.
It’s the 2nd one in here.








						A Dozen Things I’ve Learned from Jim Barksdale and “Barksdaleisms”
					

Since the contributions of business executives with great operations skills are too often underappreciated I decided to do a blog post on a notable example. I intend for this post to be a natural f…




					25iq.com


----------



## Warp daddy

Not trying to bust your chops at all , So what DO u see Harv ? Help us to see pass the obvious


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> That’s totally fair as well. I’m ok wearing a mask if it’s required by a business or it puts others at ease, for now. At some point though we have to draw a line. It’s extremely easy to get carried away in all of this, especially if safety cops go unchecked and people want public mask wearing to stay as the new normal.
> 
> As far as American health care goes, I’m insured now but before I was I didn’t expect shit. It was basically the bare bones of care and a see ya later, here’s a 1200 dollar bill for that x Ray and ace bandage. Heal up buddy. I’m 46 and I didn’t have insurance until two years ago.
> 
> You must have very expensive health insurance with such high expectations. Most Americans don’t have that luxury.



For acute care and trauma it really doesn't have anything to do with insurance. If you or a family member shows up at the ER with heaven forbid a severe and potentially life threatening injury, they aren't asking for insurance before they treat you (yeah it could really suck later). However if they are all jammed up with illness that certainly could put you in jeopardy of getting care.


----------



## MarzNC

D.B. Cooper said:


> I don't think he's wrong. I don't know that he's right either. I thought January 2022 would be a lot different than January 2021.


The pandemic situation is very different than a year ago. Heck, it's very different than six months ago. Or even two months ago before Omicron started spreading. Although depending on where you live and how you travel, it may not be that obvious on a day-to-day basis.

Here is an example from my neighborhood. The area has gone from farmland to suburbia in the last 10 years. There are lots of families with young kids in school, people are highly educated with post-college degrees, and most people probably got vaccinated as soon as they were eligible. The recent shift in mask usage was noticeable at the fitness center after Omicron was all over the headlines. Just as there was a shift when the county stopped requiring masks several months ago after the Delta wave was over. When the place re-opened (can't even remember when), everyone was masked. When it wasn't required, about half the people didn't mask at the start. I didn't mask but I only go when it's pretty empty midweek. After a while, only 10% of the adults masked and usually they were with young kids. Now it's back to about half being masked.

Pandemics last a long time . . . years not months. But before everyone had a smart phone, once the situation was over in a given country there weren't local or national headlines about the ongoing pandemic on another continent.

MERS is a coronavirus that was considered a pandemic because it showed up on multiple continents. But few people in N. America heard much about it in 2012-19. It was news to me in early 2020. The big difference from SARS-CoV-2 is that human-to-human transmission is rare for MERS. MERS is fatal for a third of the people who get it. People with MERS aren't contagious without symptoms, so are much less likely to spread it unknowingly to other people. Without research related to SARS and MERS, the development of the vaccines for SARS-CoV-2 would've taken longer.


----------



## MarzNC

At this point, I'm not even looking at detected case numbers. There are so many undetected cases with Omicron, not really much point. Hospitalization stats are decent for most states, with a few exceptions. I only look at the NY Times or CovidActNow because it's easier and they use consistent data sources. With CovidActNow I can choose which states to compare. Also can easily see All Time, 180 days, or 60 days. With Omicron, looking at 60 days it's pretty easy to get a sense of the regional differences. I don't look at large states like NY, FL, TX, or CA very much because there is too much variation within the state. Large populations mask what's really going on. Just as considering the vax rate for all 330 million Americans doesn't really mean much when the range by county is probably from 30% to almost 90%.

New England is a mix. CT and MA seem to be somewhat different than VT, NH, ME. Probably because CT and MA have more large urban areas. VT, NH, ME look like there was a Delta surge after Thanksgiving, followed by a more recent Omicron surge.




Looking at only the past 60 days, pretty clear that the southeast and Rocky Mountains haven't reached an Omicron peak yet. Note that during the winter of 2019-20, Colorado was one of the first states to have imported cases of COVID-19. I read about more than one international traveler who did ski vacations there in Feb 2020. They tested positive soon after leaving the USA.


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> I think you’re mistaking “seeing the other side” for “whining about the side he doesn’t like, creating strawmen, and not even reading the links he posts”:


You think I didn't read the article? I did, it's just that I know how to read between the lines. "When it is safe" means indefinitely if the last 22 months were any indication.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> You think I didn't read the article? I did, it's just that I know how to read between the lines. "When it is safe" means indefinitely if the last 22 months were any indication.


So, you just switch to pure speculation & call it “reading between the lines”?

Okay, if that’s how we’re doing things, I read between the lines of the article, too, and it said snoloco should stop whining because he sounds like a baby.


----------



## MarzNC

Here's a couple ways to see regional differences. First is the standard graph from The NY Times. Second uses one state from each of four regions for a direct comparison. Similar sequence in terms of when each region peaks for a given wave as has happened since early 2020. Population density, international airports, and other "cultural" factors stay the same as the dominant variant changes.


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> So, you just switch to pure speculation & call it “reading between the lines”?


You can call it speculation but that's what's happening. In Oregon, emergency orders need to be revisited every 6 months. 6 months from now is late July. Why would they be trying to legislate mask mandates if they were going to end before then?


----------



## MarzNC

If you want to get a sense of how fast Omicron has taken over from Delta, check out this website. Click on World to see graphs for countries or United States. for states. The countries doing the best job of genomic sequencing are Denmark, the UK, South Africa, and the USA.









						CoVariants: Per Country
					

CoVariants: Plots of Frequencies by Country




					covariants.org


----------



## snoloco

I actually think it's a good thing that Omicron overtook Delta. I'd much rather be infected with Omicron than breakthrough Delta, since Omicron infection protects against Delta reinfection.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> IMO @snoloco 2.0 is most improved, including investing energy in seeing the other side.
> 
> He's still opinionated as fuçk, but who isn't?


I like the boy. He's a smart kid and loves to ski!!! That's cool in my book. I still say there's hope for him.
My fear is how serious he is at is age. He should be telling us how he met this hot lil snow bunny at K on the gondi, shit like that.
Live it up Lil buckaroo. Life will get serious enough before you even blink.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I can't even tell you when the last time Sno has made me laugh. I like people who make me laugh, can take some BS, and give it right back.
Those are the people I run with.


----------



## Tjf1967

witch hobble said:


> How much life advice has been offered up to the guy over the years? How much has even registered?


Getting life advise from two screwballs on the Internet. ?


----------



## witch hobble

Tjf1967 said:


> Getting life advise from two screwballs on the Internet. ?


You’re right. We should feel grateful that he has blessed us with his uphill capacity and top drive v. bottom drive knowledge, coupled with his youthful enthusiasm.


----------



## Campgottagopee

witch hobble said:


> You’re right. We should feel grateful that he has blessed us with his uphill capacity and top drive v. bottom drive knowledge, coupled with his youthful enthusiasm.


You kill me 
Well done ??


----------



## snoloco

New York mask mandate struck down in court.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Getting life advise from two screwballs on the Internet. ?


Like you aren't a screwball


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> New York mask mandate struck down in court.



So are you staying, or still eyeing up the granite state?


----------



## snoloco

Harvey said:


> So are you staying, or still eyeing up the granite state?


The fight isn't over yet, but this is a step in the right direction. If you read the document, it says that the governor and health commissioner can't make rules like this without the approval of the state legislature. The state legislature has to this point rubber stamped everything this governor wants, which would put the mandate back into effect, and the state could also appeal this decision. I haven't made a decision on moving yet. In order to stay, I'd need to be fairly confident that rules like this are never coming back. Let's say there was no court decision and the mask mandate was allowed to expire on February 1. That would not be enough, because it would just be reinstated as soon as cases begin to rise again.


----------



## raisingarizona

I really like Sno’s thoughts on ski area management and his technical knowledge.

I think he brings a cool thing to the table.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> I really like Sno’s thoughts on ski area management and technical knowledge.


He could do better job than the Pepsi pusher Vail has running their shitshow, but that’s not saying much.


----------



## raisingarizona

I think he could do a good job. I wonder what Sno’s ski area would look like. I’m half tempted to start a thread asking Sno to share his business plan.


----------



## witch hobble

raisingarizona said:


> I think he could do a good job. I wonder what Sno’s ski area would look like. I’m half tempted to start a thread asking Sno to share his business plan.


Alls I’m saying is he better have all lifts open by Christmas! No excuses!


----------



## MarzNC

@Harvey : came across this info about how effective different types of masks are thought to be. The link is the one from the bottom of the screenshot. Per usual, depends on what someone is trying to accomplish by masking. Helping to avoid possible community spread if infected but asymptomatic or trying to prevent getting infected are completely different reasons for masking.

January 14, 2022








Which mask protects best against the Omicron variant?


With the highly contagious COVID-19 Omicron variant surging, many people are reconsidering the type of mask they wear. A UC Davis Health infectious diseases expert has advice about when to wear cloth, surgical, N95 or KN95 masks.




health.ucdavis.edu


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> The fight isn't over yet, but this is a step in the right direction. If you read the document, it says that the governor and health commissioner can't make rules like this without the approval of the state legislature. The state legislature has to this point rubber stamped everything this governor wants, which would put the mandate back into effect, and the state could also appeal this decision. I haven't made a decision on moving yet. In order to stay, I'd need to be fairly confident that rules like this are never coming back. Let's say there was no court decision and the mask mandate was allowed to expire on February 1. That would not be enough, because it would just be reinstated as soon as cases begin to rise again.


I like what the gov of Virginia did. Enacted a mandate making masks optional.


----------



## jasonwx

raisingarizona said:


> I think he could do a good job. I wonder what Sno’s ski area would look like. I’m half tempted to start a thread asking Sno to share his business plan.


I’m sure he has a lot of good ideas
But implementing them is the key. It all boils down to leading your crew. How do you motivate people to do a shitty low paying job?
Anyone can say we will blow a ton of snow and put in the latest and greatest lifts. 
How do you get the minimum wage food service worker to server fries with a smile or the lifty freezing his ass off to say good morning ??


----------



## Harvey

Sounds like somebody ^^ speaks from experience.



witch hobble said:


> Alls I’m saying is he better have all lifts open by Christmas! No excuses!


And his ski area is in the Florida panhandle?


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> I’m sure he has a lot of good ideas
> But implementing them is the key. It all boils down to leading your crew. How do you motivate people to do a shitty low paying job?
> Anyone can say we will blow a ton of snow and put in the latest and greatest lifts.
> How do you get the minimum wage food service worker to server fries with a smile or the lifty freezing his ass off to say good morning ??


Yep
The lad needs to someday get a true dose of reality. Money tree's do not grow on ski slopes.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Yep
> The lad needs to someday get a true dose of reality. Money tree's do not grow on ski slopes.


There’s folks' underwear on trees as ya ride up sometimes, so there’s that.


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Money tree's do not grow on ski slopes.


See, this is why my plan to run Big Tupper involves losing a million dollars or so every year until I die (hopefully there will be enough of the $400 million after taxes to do that, but if there isn’t, fuck it, I tried).

RA is definitely a hireable employee. Snoloco seems hireable as a consultant, but I don’t want him there all the time because I don’t want his pessimistic, childish attitude to rub off on my crew of hardy. roughneck (but good natured) locals & eager, optimistic teenagers (on school breaks).


----------



## Campgottagopee

WORD ^^^^^^


----------



## witch hobble

MC2 said:


> See, this is why my plan to run Big Tupper involves losing a million dollars or so every year until I die (hopefully there will be enough of the $400 million after taxes to do that, but if there isn’t, fuck it, I tried).
> 
> RA is definitely a hireable employee. Snoloco seems hireable as a consultant, but I don’t want him there all the time because I don’t want his pessimistic, childish attitude to rub off on my crew of hardy. roughneck (but good natured) locals & eager, optimistic teenagers (on school breaks).


----------



## Brownski

Overdose deaths up 30% year over year according to NPR just now


----------



## Tjf1967

Brownski said:


> Overdose deaths up 30% year over year according to NPR just now


It's Obama's fault


----------



## witch hobble

Brownski said:


> Overdose deaths up 30% year over year according to NPR just now


It’s terrible. Most of us want some way to disassociate with reality right now. Even those of us who live in well off comfort. Drug and alcohol use is way up.

Fentanyl is in lots of street drugs these days. 

P2P methamphetamine is a different animal.









‘I Don’t Know That I Would Even Call It Meth Anymore’


Different chemically than it was a decade ago, the drug is creating a wave of severe mental illness and worsening America’s homelessness problem.




www.theatlantic.com





Stick to legal, regulated weed and moderate alcohol consumption people.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny




----------



## raisingarizona

witch hobble said:


> It’s terrible. Most of us want some way to disassociate with reality right now. Even those of us who live in well off comfort. Drug and alcohol use is way up.
> 
> Fentanyl is in lots of street drugs these days.
> 
> P2P methamphetamine is a different animal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘I Don’t Know That I Would Even Call It Meth Anymore’
> 
> 
> Different chemically than it was a decade ago, the drug is creating a wave of severe mental illness and worsening America’s homelessness problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stick to legal, regulated weed and moderate alcohol consumption people.


What hope is there for young people really? I’m 46 and practically right there with them. I’m not kidding, I’m about tapped out on energy for giving a f anymore. The only thing that keeps me going at this point are my girls and trail building.


----------



## JTG

Take 1

Life these days sucks, there’s little opportunity out there, and the adversity that COVID has provided has beaten me down, affecting every aspect of my life.

Take 2

Things are tough these days but life is what you make if it, and I’ll do whatever it takes to secure whatever opportunities are out there, the adversity of COVID only strengthening my resolve to rise up and not let it rule my outlook on life.

I know, I know….all kinds of different people out there, all with varying circumstances, some with more/less ability than others to rise up. I get that.

However, no matter one’s circumstance, Take 1 and Take 2 are both options available to people, just gotta decide which attitude you are going to take and how hard you are going to work to push through and push ahead.

For younger people the outlook (still, as always) has to be establishing oneself through hard work and smart career moves. For us older folk the outlook is more on protecting what we’ve already worked hard for, for ourselves and for our kids. Both are good motivations for a Take 2 approach.


----------



## witch hobble

raisingarizona said:


> What hope is there for young people really? I’m 46 and practically right there with them. I’m not kidding, I’m about tapped out on energy for giving a f anymore. The only thing that keeps me going at this point are my girls and trail building.


I realize that it’s hard to quantify it in our society, but that’s more than a lot of people have, tbh. A legacy of sorts. Don’t sell yourself short. - fellow 46 year old


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

raisingarizona said:


> What hope is there for young people really? I’m 46 and practically right there with them. I’m not kidding, I’m about tapped out on energy for giving a f anymore. The only thing that keeps me going at this point are my girls and trail building.


Let's just quit our jobs and be ski bums.


----------



## witch hobble

Adirondack Johnny said:


> View attachment 12244


Miss you around here adk j


----------



## witch hobble

Adirondack Johnny said:


> Let's just quit our jobs and be ski bums.


You first!


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> What hope is there for young people really?


Their parents, like you. You've gotten your girl out there rippin', she's not on the couch playing those stupid video games when she's out there with you. I'd say she's lucky.


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> What hope is there for young people really? I’m 46 and practically right there with them. I’m not kidding, I’m about tapped out on energy for giving a f anymore. The only thing that keeps me going at this point are my girls and trail building.


Not to sound completely insensitive, and I'm asking to sincerely understand, but how is Covid impacting your day to day life in AZ? Isn't that the wild west where there's almost no rules? My mom is going to AZ in less than a month to be with friends and the current expectation is life will be pretty normal at the resort--- and this is from talking to others.

Even here in NY, skiing in western NY is 100% normal and only masks in the lodge. Lifts are being loaded to full capacity and singles are loaded with others. If I want to go to a pub for a beer or dinner with my buddies I can do that. I can go to a pub and watch live music as I did a few weeks ago. Aside from a few places requiring proof of vaccination that's about it. Ok so if I get up from the bar or my table to take a leak they request we were a mask--- that barely budges my annoyance meter.

My 20 something children are working their careers, getting together with friends and living life rather normally. I don't get the doom and gloom. 

Jan/Feb 2022 isn't even close to what we were going through in 2020 or early 2021, not even close.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

raisingarizona said:


> What hope is there for young people really?


During the height of the financial crisis a small business owner (IT systems integrator) once told me, "chaos breeds opportunity." There's a lot of chaos around these days.
Also, studying history helps. Imagine being born in 1898? You have WWI where you probably served, saw the Great Depression (likely when you had young kids or teenagers), saw Al Capone, then saw WWII, followed by the Cold War, Polio et.al. was a constant threat.....
Today there are all sorts of flatteners. Anyone can create a web site, cellular technology, interest rates are low, literacy high, threat of war and famine almost non existent. The world's short and near term problems are obvious, go solve them and make some money and be happy.


----------



## raisingarizona

Andy_ROC said:


> Not to sound completely insensitive, and I'm asking to sincerely understand, but how is Covid impacting your day to day life in AZ? Isn't that the wild west where there's almost no rules? My mom is going to AZ in less than a month to be with friends and the current expectation is life will be pretty normal at the resort--- and this is from talking to others.
> 
> Even here in NY, skiing in western NY is 100% normal and only masks in the lodge. Lifts are being loaded to full capacity and singles are loaded with others. If I want to go to a pub for a beer or dinner with my buddies I can do that. I can go to a pub and watch live music as I did a few weeks ago. Aside from a few places requiring proof of vaccination that's about it. Ok so if I get up from the bar or my table to take a leak they request we were a mask--- that barely budges my annoyance meter.
> 
> My 20 something children are working their careers, getting together with friends and living life rather normally. I don't get the doom and gloom.
> 
> Jan/Feb 2022 isn't even close to what we were going through in 2020 or early 2021, not even close.


I wasn’t talking about covid. It’s more about the relationship between drug use and an unhealthy society and extremely grim outlook for the health of the planet that supports us.

We at least have tacos and dogs still


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> my girls and trail building


So... your loved ones and your passion.

Good strategy IMO.


----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> Jan/Feb 2022 isn't even close to what we were going through in 2020 or early 2021, not even close.


^^Fact.

But people are more weary of the whole thing now.

I'm not down on my own, but many around me are. Empathy for them makes it harder for me too.


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> I wasn’t talking about covid.


Okay yeah I agree then. I feel we're in a pretty bad place as a nation and a world--- not because most people are inherently evil, but easily lulled into controversial issues and influencers making people feel as if they need to chose sides. There's too much fighting over a lot of nonsense rather than focusing on things we enjoy together. I put a lot of blame on social media and opinion based news --- those organizations are profiting handsomely at our expense by whipping people into a frenzy, dividing us and feeding dangerous toxic tribalism. Climate change, the pandemic and the list goes on and on, all politicized and dividing. 

But then again I also consider other generations. My grandparents and my parents as children dealt w/WW2 and the aftermath for years--- fear, product rationing and shortages, price controls, blackouts and air raid drills. I could only imagine the bellyaching from many people today that appear have a very entitled attitudes.

In my youth there was the specter of nuclear war with the Russia. I can remember having air raid drills in school. A siren would blow and we'd duck and cover under our desks--- and that was in the early 70's. Pretty scary stuff for a kid. 

Most of us here are old enough to remember the horror of Sept 11, 2001. The absolute sickness and fear, and major life changes that occurred as a result for all of us. Some here I bet even had friends murdered that day. We endured. 

With that all said, while we've endured a lot over the years, what's different and most concerning this time is we're more divided. There's such political barriers to working together to solve problems. The fueling of toxic tribalism that is dividing us while other's profit from this dangerous act. We're on a pretty bad trajectory right now but my family and I chose to live our lives being happy and kind to others and that often is contagious.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Andy_ROC said:


> children dealt w/WW2


Can you imagine Sno's reaction if he were to get drafted??? Egads!!!


----------



## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> Can you imagine Sno's reaction if he were to get drafted??? Egads!!!


Lol... his first question would be, if I wear a mask can I avoid the draft? LMAO!


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> I wasn’t talking about covid. It’s more about the relationship between drug use and an unhealthy society and extremely grim outlook for the health of the planet that supports us.


Planet earth will be fine. Humans accepting one another needs some help.
The local Native Americans start out their “serious” discussions with stating of what they’re thankful for.
I was thankful to ski the local bump with some nice fresh snow and thought of it on the ride up.
There’s a lot to be thankful for.
Family, Friends, Dogs, birds, fish, trees, other plants ...


----------



## wonderpony

My life has been pretty much chaos since May 2019. My son graduated from college and moved out in May. Mom's cancer worsened over the summer. She died in September of 2019. My son's long time gf broke up with him in December. Cue the pandemic and going remote for 18 months. My son got transferred to NJ in the spring of 2020. I watched NJ covid numbers as well as NY. (He's back in Rachacha now.) Things were promising last summer. We had three weeks of joy, and then came Delta. Masks came back out. I go back on campus. Omicron happens. I go remote for a week... Tralalala.

In some ways, I think it is easier that all the chaos has happened in a short time. It's kind of like all the pieces of my life were tossed in the air. I have survived everything, so far, by making sure I get on my pony 6 days a week, weather dependent, running, yoga, skiing in the winter, and keeping a sense of humor and a full wine cellar.


----------



## Campgottagopee

It's all about the simple things


----------



## ScottySkis

> Eating Itillian high class restaurant local with great friends at my favorite new Carlos pizzeria restaurant with bar awesome meals coffee and lunch special very close to new apartment other side of Middletown we all wore the masks on way in then it was all good to take off when we asked good seeing friends like before covid started I had excellent


Sausage and broccoli raba with pasaata and coffee as good as best restaurants highest quality service and food and little nice bar area perfect for me lol 
New normal wihic is very good for me with covid shots like this restaurant in Middletown NY a lot???????????????????





						Carlos Pizza
					

Carlos Pizza & Bar




					carlospizzaandbar.com


----------



## wonderpony

ScottySkis said:


> Sausage and broccoli raba with pasaata and coffee as good as best restaurants highest quality service and food and little nice bar area perfect for me lol
> New normal wihic is very good for me with covid shots like this restaurant in Middletown NY a lot???????????????????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carlos Pizza
> 
> 
> Carlos Pizza & Bar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carlospizzaandbar.com


I was just looking at a recipe for pasta with sausage and broccoli rabe! What a great combo!


----------



## snoloco

Campgottagopee said:


> Can you imagine Sno's reaction if he were to get drafted??? Egads!!!


If we're comparing to World War 2, the draft was used because it was well, a world war with everything on the line. That's not what covid is.


----------



## Andy_ROC

snoloco said:


> If we're comparing to World War 2, the draft was used because it was well, a world war with everything on the line. That's not what covid is.


what about Nam?


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> Planet earth will be fine. Humans accepting one another needs some help.
> The local Native Americans start out their “serious” discussions with stating of what they’re thankful for.
> I was thankful to ski the local bump with some nice fresh snow and thought of it on the ride up.
> There’s a lot to be thankful for.
> Family, Friends, Dogs, birds, fish, trees, other plants ...


I like that.
Yes planet earth will be fine and remain fine for long after humans become extinct.


----------



## tirolski

snoloco said:


> If we're comparing to World War 2, the draft was used because it was well, a world war with everything on the line. That's not what covid is.



Maybe they should draft folks to go to work instead of just giving out government cash.
Ya know, shovel ready stuff, like the new zipline and $30 Million lodge at the ski bowl.
Tram from there to the "main lodge", the whole shebang. That’ll fix things.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> If we're comparing to World War 2, the draft was used because it was well, a world war with everything on the line. That's not what covid is.


Hey Einstein
It was a joke to point out things could be much worse.


----------



## snoloco

Andy_ROC said:


> what about Nam?


Vietnam became an endless, unwinnable war, and the reasons for continuing to fight it were unclear, and young men were being sent overseas to die, to fight against what didn't seem to be much of a threat to the United States. The same thing happened with the "War on Terror". The way we are currently responding to covid has a lot of similarities to both. There is no clear strategy, no endgame, no consensus on what we want to accomplish, yet we're all expected to keep blindly following until those who "know better" tell us we've won, because that's what a good citizen does and otherwise you want people to die.


----------



## Tjf1967

snoloco said:


> Vietnam became an endless, unwinnable war, and the reasons for continuing to fight it were unclear, and young men were being sent overseas to die, to fight against what didn't seem to be much of a threat to the United States. The same thing happened with the "War on Terror". The way we are currently responding to covid has a lot of similarities to both. There is no clear strategy, no endgame, no consensus on what we want to accomplish, yet we're all expected to keep blindly following until those who "know better" tell us we've won, because that's what a good citizen does and otherwise you want people to die.


If I were building a ski list I would have my own opinions. Ultimately I would defer to people who make lift building their job. Same with the virus. 
You did and followed the rules. The people who didn't are delaying herd immunity. You know that. Saying the hell with them ok going to do what I want us the natural gut reaction. Reality you have to live with your decision.
I'll continue to follow the rules best I can and let the chips fall where they may.


----------



## Andy_ROC

snoloco said:


> Vietnam became an endless, unwinnable war, and the reasons for continuing to fight it were unclear, and young men were being sent overseas to die, to fight against what didn't seem to be much of a threat to the United States. The same thing happened with the "War on Terror". The way we are currently responding to covid has a lot of similarities to both. There is no clear strategy, no endgame, no consensus on what we want to accomplish, yet we're all expected to keep blindly following until those who "know better" tell us we've won, because that's what a good citizen does and otherwise you want people to die.


So I guess then all things considered and when compared to the deep sacrifices made by other generations, being asked to wear a mask in crowded indoor settings is a pretty small ask. 

As for all your other comments about the virus you talk like you think you know what you're talking about. Serious question, who are you getting your information and subsequent anger from? 

You seem to do a lot of complaining about anything. For example being upset because ski areas weren't posting their firm opening dates on their websites, and that it was an inconvenience to you. It's almost as if you weren't seeing the reality of the very uncertain weather earlier this season.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> Vietnam became an endless, unwinnable war, and the reasons for continuing to fight it were unclear, and young men were being sent overseas to die, to fight against what didn't seem to be much of a threat to the United States. The same thing happened with the "War on Terror". The way we are currently responding to covid has a lot of similarities to both. There is no clear strategy, no endgame, no consensus on what we want to accomplish, yet we're all expected to keep blindly following until those who "know better" tell us we've won, because that's what a good citizen does and otherwise you want people to die.


Wrong
Nothing similar.
Soldiers follow orders, we civilians do not, even when it benefits us.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Soldiers follow orders, we civilians do not, even when it benefits us.


Soldiers follow orders against their own self interest, to the point of giving their lives. Civilians should be happy to follow rules that protect their health. Ignoring scientific public health advice because you think you know more than actual experts or just to show you are free to do that falls somewhere on the Venn diagram of "crazy" and "foolish."

mm


----------



## snoloco

Andy_ROC said:


> So I guess then all things considered and when compared to the deep sacrifices made by other generations, being asked to wear a mask in crowded indoor settings is a pretty small ask.


I'm not comparing the level of sacrifice. I'm comparing the messaging, and the fact that it's so hard to move on from either scenario.



Andy_ROC said:


> As for all your other comments about the virus you talk like you think you know what you're talking about. Serious question, who are you getting your information and subsequent anger from?


I don't claim to know everything, but based on what I do know, I'm going to do whatever I can to live as I did in 2019 without any caveats. As for anger, I've spent the last 2 years living in this blue state dystopian hellscape. That's two years spent under a set of incredibly arbitrary and heinous rules, at the mercy of a single person, with no data, no metrics, and no checks and balances. Most of the country doesn't have to worry about the shit we have to deal with on a daily basis, and then we have the EXACT SAME FUCKING RESULT as the places that didn't even try. Kids have been locked out of school for upwards of a year, businesses decimated, most offices still empty, crime up, tourism down, and we still ended up with one of the highest case rates in the world. Everyone got crushed by covid. We just added a bunch of other suffering on top of that. I don't understand why everyone isn't as enraged as I am.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> we have the EXACT SAME FUCKING RESULT as the places that didn't even try. .


This is just a lie.

If you had strong points, you wouldn’t have to lie.









						Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame
					

An analysis by NPR shows that since the vaccine rollout, counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump have had more than twice the COVID mortality rates of those that voted for Joe Biden.




					www.npr.org


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> . As for anger, I've spent the last 2 years living in this blue state dystopian hellscape. That's two years spent under a set of incredibly arbitrary and heinous rules.


Also, you should be on a Mexican soap opera with this drama queen bullshit.


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> This is just a lie.
> 
> If you had strong points, you wouldn’t have to lie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame
> 
> 
> An analysis by NPR shows that since the vaccine rollout, counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump have had more than twice the COVID mortality rates of those that voted for Joe Biden.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


The vaccine works. None of the other stuff did shit.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> The vaccine works. None of the other stuff did shit.


Yes it did. Every place locked down in March of 2020. Every state had mask mandates for a while (some only in the cities). It absolutely helped slow the spread.

Stop lying.


----------



## snoloco

Maybe there was a justification for mask mandates in 2020, but there isn't now.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> Maybe there was a justification for mask mandates in 2020, but there isn't now.


Maybe think about someone other than yourself for one second. Think about a kid whose mother has cancer, who wants to wear a mask at school, but other kids make fun of him because he’s a “pussy” for wearing a mask (in the absence of a mandate). Think about, I don’t know, someone who has a 14-week old daughter who can’t get vaccinated.

Maybe just once, believe people when they tell you that it isn’t all about you.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> I think you are focusing on all the things he still does that he always did. I am focusing on what has changed. If you don't see the difference, not sure what to tell you, you don't see it.


Any update here?


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> Maybe think about someone other than yourself for one second. Think about a kid whose mother has cancer, who wants to wear a mask at school, but other kids make fun of him because he’s a “pussy” for wearing a mask (in the absence of a mandate). Think about, I don’t know, someone who has a 14-week old daughter who can’t get vaccinated.
> 
> Maybe just once, believe people when they tell you that it isn’t all about you.


These are arguments for permanent mask mandates.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> These are arguments for permanent mask mandates.


No, they’re arguments for when the rate of COVID is still high as fuck, before the production of vaccines that are able to respond to variants & baby vaccines (both undergoing testing right now).

Calm the fuck down, you whiny child.


----------



## MC2

When this goes below last winter’s peak (and it’s almost there), we can all go back to living our lives.

But until then, maybe just cut the whining in half?


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> No, they’re arguments for when the rate of COVID is still high as fuck, before the production of vaccines that are able to respond to variants & baby vaccines (both undergoing testing right now).
> 
> Calm the fuck down, you whiny child.


Everyone will have already had Omicron by the the time those vaccines are out. And what about the next variant? If you keep moving the goalposts, it will eventually become permanent.

Here's the deal. You can wear a mask forever if you want, but don't force me to or I'll vote for someone who will ban it for you.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> Here's the deal. You can wear a mask forever if you want, but don't force me to or I'll vote for someone who will ban it for you.


Lol. That’s the threat?


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> Lol. That’s the threat?


You're in for a world of hurt this November and in 2024.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> You're in for a world of hurt this November and in 2024.


Is this a threat of violence? Wtf?

How am *I* in for a “world of hurt” from you?


----------



## Harvey

MC2 said:


> Any update here?


Based on your question, I'm guessing no?

When the last 2 pages of a thread are just you and another person calling each other names, it's time to re-evaluate your approach.


----------



## witch hobble

Harvey said:


> When the last 2 pages of a thread are just you and another person calling each other names, it's time to re-evaluate your approach.


----------



## Scrundy

Funny reading, I’m past all this crap, I know where I stand. I will not try and convince anyone to feel the way I do.

I will say vaccine and masks do not work, isn’t it obvious? Numbers are as high if not higher post vaccine and masks mandates, does that make sense? Ya ya you’ll probably say it would have been worse. How do you know? If you can see the future please send me the next lotto numbers please. 

Don’t people see the media influence? Funny how reports of children getting covid spike as they are pushing the vaccine for children, there’s many more. 

People in high place’s are getting rich off this virus and I’m sure they would like to keep the train rolling…so keep the fear rolling right. 

Most scientific articles I’ve seen on this post are from left leaning sources or they receive money from the government. I take little stock in any of it. 

You follow the science people can I ask you a question, isn’t it smart to question science? Isn’t science in itself to question science?

My opinion is covid will be around for awhile and it’s been long over due to learn to live with it. Work on therapeutics as opposed to vaccines. 

I continue to go through life maskless unvaccinated and unafraid

Go skiing people


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

MC2 said:


> Is this a threat of violence? Wtf?
> 
> How am *I* in for a “world of hurt” from you?


He's going to complain about lifts and snowmaking until you smash your own head into the wall. This younger generation is clever I tell ya!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Scrundy said:


> Funny reading, I’m past all this crap, I know where I stand. I will not try and convince anyone to feel the way I do.
> 
> I will say vaccine and masks do not work, isn’t it obvious? Numbers are as high if not higher post vaccine and masks mandates, does that make sense? Ya ya you’ll probably say it would have been worse. How do you know? If you can see the future please send me the next lotto numbers please.
> 
> Don’t people see the media influence? Funny how reports of children getting covid spike as they are pushing the vaccine for children, there’s many more.
> 
> People in high place’s are getting rich off this virus and I’m sure they would like to keep the train rolling…so keep the fear rolling right.
> 
> Most scientific articles I’ve seen on this post are from left leaning sources or they receive money from the government. I take little stock in any of it.
> 
> You follow the science people can I ask you a question, isn’t it smart to question science? Isn’t science in itself to question science?
> 
> My opinion is covid will be around for awhile and it’s been long over due to learn to live with it. Work on therapeutics as opposed to vaccines.
> 
> I continue to go through life maskless unvaccinated and unafraid
> 
> Go skiing people


I'm past it all too.
I'm vaccinated and unafraid.
I'll wear a mask when required out of respect for the business owner only, not because someone told me to.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> This is just a lie.
> 
> If you had strong points, you wouldn’t have to lie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame
> 
> 
> An analysis by NPR shows that since the vaccine rollout, counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump have had more than twice the COVID mortality rates of those that voted for Joe Biden.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


This seems silly to me. Trump was one of the first ones to be vaxed, and encouraged everyone to do the same. In fact, wasn't he recently booed at his own rally for telling people to get vaxed? 
I point this out, not as a Trump fan, rather as someone who feels this health crisis never should've been turned political. It's not. It's a global health issue, period. IMHO.


----------



## witch hobble

Campgottagopee said:


> This seems silly to me. Trump was one of the first ones to be vaxed, and encouraged everyone to do the same. In fact, wasn't he recently booed at his own rally for telling people to get vaxed?
> I point this out, not as a Trump fan, rather as someone who feels this health crisis never should've been turned political. It's not. It's a global health issue, period. IMHO.


Remember that he also did all that while giving a wink and a nod to the Fire Fauci people, undermining his own health experts at almost every turn along the way. Especially once we entered the heart of election season.

His inability to have a clear message hurt the country’s response.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

Shit, it's almost meme time around here...?


----------



## Brownski

Adirondack Johnny said:


> Shit, it's almost meme time around here...?


Ha


----------



## witch hobble

Adirondack Johnny said:


> Shit, it's almost meme time around here...?


----------



## witch hobble




----------



## Adirondack Johnny

Almost felt like the good Ole days for a minute.


----------



## raisingarizona

Tjf1967 said:


> If I were building a ski list I would have my own opinions. Ultimately I would defer to people who make lift building their job. Same with the virus.
> You did and followed the rules. The people who didn't are delaying herd immunity. You know that. Saying the hell with them ok going to do what I want us the natural gut reaction. Reality you have to live with your decision.
> I'll continue to follow the rules best I can and let the chips fall where they may.


Should we defer to the people that wage wars or should we question their decisions that have harmful impacts on all of us?


----------



## raisingarizona

MC2 said:


> Yes it did. Every place locked down in March of 2020. Every state had mask mandates for a while (some only in the cities). It absolutely helped slow the spread.
> 
> Stop lying.


Maybe it slowed nature and our ability to move past this BS? 









						Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime
					

People who recover from mild COVID-19 have bone-marrow cells that can churn out antibodies for decades, although viral variants could dampen some of the protection they offer.




					www.nature.com


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> Everyone will have already had Omicron by the the time those vaccines are out. And what about the next variant? If you keep moving the goalposts, it will eventually become permanent.
> 
> Here's the deal. You can wear a mask forever if you want, but don't force me to or I'll vote for someone who will ban it for you.


The boy’s gotta point here. 

I’ve definitely heard some people say that they now prefer wearing a mask in public.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

Anybody else have brain fog from covid? I feel even more retarded now.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Adirondack Johnny said:


> I feel even more retarded now.


You get used to it. I mean, I did.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

I'm having trouble accepting that it's a real thing.


----------



## raisingarizona

Same as it ever was.


----------



## Sbob

Well there’s another benefit to wearing a mask . Ugly people like me can go out in public without freighting small animals to death.


----------



## wonderpony

Campgottagopee said:


> You get used to it. I mean, I did.


Oh, no. I have a co-worker who was foggy pre-covid. This is not going to be good.


----------



## Harvey

Adirondack Johnny said:


> Anybody else have brain fog from covid? I feel even more retarded now.



I did. It got better after about three months.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Sbob said:


> Well there’s another benefit to wearing a mask . Ugly people like me can go out in public without freighting small animals to death.











						Face masks make people look more attractive, study finds
					

Images of men wearing a blue medical face mask perceived as being the most attractive




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## gorgonzola

Adirondack Johnny said:


> Anybody else have brain fog from covid? I feel even more retarded now.


yes, and I haven't had the 'rona yet....


----------



## Andy_ROC

I think there's a couple people in this forum living with brain fog and it might not even be from covid  

Good morning from Utah. 

PS I have no idea what mask rules are/aren't here but I'll follow with the posted rules as a respect and consideration for others and I won't belly ache about it


----------



## raisingarizona

Andy_ROC said:


> I think there's a couple people in this forum living with brain fog and it might not even be from covid
> 
> Good morning from Utah.
> 
> PS I have no idea what mask rules are/aren't here but I'll follow with the posted rules as a respect and consideration for others and I won't belly ache about it


Uh oh, is this an insult aimed at those with a different opinion than yours? This didn’t work out so well for Neil Young.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> This didn’t work out so well for Neil Young.


He got some free publicity, so there’s that.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

My my. Hey hey.


----------



## raisingarizona

tirolski said:


> He got some free publicity, so there’s that.


I’m just having fun with it honestly.

Y’all keep on rocking in the cancel culture world!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Adirondack Johnny said:


> My my. Hey hey.


I was living in a burned out basement


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> I’m just having fun with it honestly.
> 
> Y’all keep on rocking in the cancel culture world!


Disco was coming on and these folks were playing this.
Disco sucks.


----------



## Harvey

I don't totally get that tune. Neil Young should have a guilty conscience about watergate?

Yea Neil was harsh in the original (great tune IMO) and I get it, Lynyrd's pissed. But he needs a more cogent pot shot than that.

Full disclosure I never took the time to understand all the lyrics, so maybe there is more.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> I don't totally get that tune. Neil Young should have a guilty conscience about watergate?
> 
> Yea Neil was harsh in the original (great tune IMO) and I get it, Lynyrd's pissed. But he needs a more cogent pot shot than that.
> 
> Full disclosure I never took the time to understand all the lyrics, so maybe there is more.


It is the opposite - Ronnie Van Zant was agreeing with Neil Young.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I don't totally get that tune. Neil Young should have a guilty conscience about watergate?
> 
> Yea Neil was harsh in the original (great tune IMO) and I get it, Lynyrd's pissed. But he needs a more cogent pot shot than that.
> 
> Full disclosure I never took the time to understand all the lyrics, so maybe there is more.


I don't think there was much to it? More of a back and forth in the music icon world? Looks like Ronnie is wearing a Neil Young shirt in that video.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny




----------



## tirolski

It’s just artists trying to make some tunes they understand.
Seems normal.


----------



## JTG

From Sno, to you……

Old man, take a look at my life I’m a lot like you. I need someone to love me the whole day through. Ah, one look in my eyes and you can tell that’s true.

Old man, take a look at my life I’m a lot like you, twenty-four and there’s so much more…..


----------



## Campgottagopee

It's better to burn out than it is to rust.


----------



## raisingarizona

So I got boosted last Sunday but got the vid from my ski buddy on Monday. I feel like shit but make no mistake, it’s no where near as bad as my January 2020 run with this junk. 

Hopefully I’m better in a few days.


----------



## DomB

Feel better!


----------



## raisingarizona

DomB said:


> Feel better!


Thanks DomB, it’s not so bad.


----------



## snoloco

raisingarizona said:


> So I got boosted last Sunday but got the vid from my ski buddy on Monday. I feel like shit but make no mistake, it’s no where near as bad as my January 2020 run with this junk.
> 
> Hopefully I’m better in a few days.


That was like me when I got my first shot. Took the shot on a Thursday, sick by Sunday night, tested positive on Monday. It knocked me out for a couple days, but I recovered quickly.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> That was like me when I got my first shot. Took the shot on a Thursday, sick by Sunday night, tested positive on Monday. It knocked me out for a couple days, but I recovered quickly.


You’re young! At a rough 46 I’m an experiment in progress! Hopefully I’m good in a couple of days. I definitely don’t feel indestructible like I used to.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> So I got boosted last Sunday but got the vid from my ski buddy on Monday. I feel like shit but make no mistake, it’s no where near as bad as my January 2020 run with this junk.
> 
> Hopefully I’m better in a few days.


Hang in there RA. You got this!


----------



## wonderpony

raisingarizona said:


> So I got boosted last Sunday but got the vid from my ski buddy on Monday. I feel like shit but make no mistake, it’s no where near as bad as my January 2020 run with this junk.
> 
> Hopefully I’m better in a few days.


That. Just. Sucks. 

Feel better soon;


----------



## Brownski

I got it just as my booster should have been kicking in early in January. Feel better. I just got a runny nose and felt a little off for a little while.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> I got it just as my booster should have been kicking in early in January. Feel better. I just got a runny nose and felt a little off for a little while.


Yeah, not so bad. It feels like a common cold so I’m totally fine. Thanks for the kind words everyone but it’s seriously not a big deal.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Boom








Gov Hochul: Covid Mask Requirement for Businesses to End Tomorrow - X101 Always Classic


Local News here on WXHC.com is brought to you by: In her daily Covid 19 briefing this morning, Governor Kathy Hochul announced that the state will lift the mask-or-vaccine requirement[Read More...]




wxhc.com


----------



## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> Boom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gov Hochul: Covid Mask Requirement for Businesses to End Tomorrow - X101 Always Classic
> 
> 
> Local News here on WXHC.com is brought to you by: In her daily Covid 19 briefing this morning, Governor Kathy Hochul announced that the state will lift the mask-or-vaccine requirement[Read More...]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wxhc.com


Sno's firing up a big spliff and doing a shot of fireball to celebrate


----------



## Campgottagopee

Andy_ROC said:


> Sno's firing up a big spliff and doing a shot of fireball to celebrate


We can only hope!!!


----------



## snoloco

I don't celebrate getting back something that should've never been taken away in the first place.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> I don't celebrate getting back something that should've never been taken away in the first place.


Right! 
Let's stay angree 🤬


----------



## witch hobble

Campgottagopee said:


> Right!
> Let's stay angree 🤬


“Anger is a gift”


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Right!
> Let's stay angree 🤬


#onespeedfullspeed


----------



## Campgottagopee

witch hobble said:


> “Anger is a gift”


Rt on I dig RATM


----------



## Andy_ROC

snoloco said:


> I don't celebrate getting back something that should've never been taken away in the first place.



LMAO OK Doctor Sno--- always have to be a glass half empty guy.
Anyway with your mask fight over there's some other good causes you can get involved and fight to repeal;

Sanitary requirements for restaurants-- especially the one where workers are required to wash hands after using the bathroom
Repeal no shirt, no shoes, no service. It's clearly discriminatory
Stopping at stop lights, stop signs, cross walks and using turn signals. It's nobodies business what you're doing
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## snoloco

Andy_ROC said:


> LMAO OK Doctor Sno--- always have to be a glass half empty guy.
> Anyway with your mask fight over there's some other good causes you can get involved and fight to repeal;
> 
> Sanitary requirements for restaurants-- especially the one where workers are required to wash hands after using the bathroom


Not nearly as intrusive and is actually proven to be effective.


Andy_ROC said:


> Repeal no shirt, no shoes, no service. It's clearly discriminatory


You're comparing faces to private parts or bare feet. Get real.


Andy_ROC said:


> Stopping at stop lights, stop signs, cross walks and using turn signals. It's nobodies business what you're doing


If you run a red light, run a stop sign, don't yield at a crosswalk, or don't use a turn signal, you are highly likely to get in an accident that will inflict serious bodily harm on others, or even death. A maskless, healthy person is comparatively zero risk to anyone else.


----------



## DomB

snoloco said:


> I don't celebrate getting back something that should've never been taken away in the first place.


Sno, I really get the fact that you are a young dude and sometimes the curmudgeons are too hard, but in my (curmudgeony) years I have found that those who see things from the 'half full' side are happier than the half empty side. I apologize for anonymously dispensing life advice (I have no place to do that) but I just felt like it was right to do that. Good luck dude. Would be happy to ski with you some day.


----------



## Country Gun

snoloco said:


> Not nearly as intrusive and is actually proven to be effective.
> 
> You're comparing faces to private parts or bare feet. Get real.
> 
> If you run a red light, run a stop sign, don't yield at a crosswalk, or don't use a turn signal, you are highly likely to get . A maskless, healthy person is comparatively zero risk to anyone else.


Sound like your coming around to a Country Boy’s way of the thinking. Democrats have learned this, even the NY and NJ ones. They don’t want to give in , but hey mid term Elections are coming.


----------



## Harvey

Country Gun said:


> Sound like your coming around to a Country Boy’s way of the thinking. Democrats have learned this, even the NY and NJ ones. They don’t want to give in , but hey mid term Elections are coming.


No politics please.









Notice on Coronavirus Posting


There is no simple solution for Covid content. Any unlocked thread remotely related to the topic becomes the defacto covid thread. The topic has such strong political undercurrent, there is always potential for tension. I've unlocked the Covid and Skiing thread (in the Woodstove) and the New...




nyskiblog.com


----------



## Country Gun

Harvey said:


> No politics please.


Ok sorry


----------



## snoloco

While covid restrictions are a hyper-politicized topic, I'm not discussing them in that way. It's more of a quality-of-life issue for me. I find it hard to be happy living in an environment where the state is constantly threatening to impose another mask mandate or other dumb rules. Even though it was just lifted, I'm still considering moving, because it's not enough to me to simply lift the mandates. I also need to be fairly certain that they are not coming back next winter. I do not have that confidence in New York State.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> . Even though it was just lifted, I'm still considering moving,


----------



## jasonwx

I’ve said this before I wish masks remained permanently I can’t stand people breathing on me in the supermarket ,movie theater etc.


----------



## Brownski

I can’t wait to ditch my mask. I don’t feel protected by it at all. Going to the gym with a mask on seriously sucks.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Welcome to no mask Thursday!!!
No more foggy glasses


----------



## jasonwx

Full disclosure 
I don’t wear a mask at work
Except in the elevator


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Brownski said:


> Going to the gym with a mask on seriously sucks.


While not a germophobe, I was always creeped out by what was probably going on at gyms/sports clubs: people touching the equipment/not wiping off afterward, locker rooms, showers... blecch. COVID put the final nail in the coffin on that activity for me, which is a shame as I like working out on machines. Whether it's true or not, if there's one place that registers to me as a likely super spreader environment, that's it.


----------



## Brownski

jamesdeluxe said:


> While not a germophobe,


From my point of view you are. It’s a very common affliction


----------



## D.B. Cooper

jasonwx said:


> I’ve said this before I wish masks remained permanently I can’t stand people breathing on me in the supermarket ,movie theater etc


"Lighten up, Francis."


jasonwx said:


> Full disclosure
> I don’t wear a mask at work
> Except in the elevator.


Seems contradictory to the above.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Brownski said:


> From my point of view you are.


While I wasn't a fan of suspected uncleanliness, that didn't prevent me from going at least three times weekly over two decades to New York Sports Clubs in the city and NJ. I'd argue that a true germophobe wouldn't.


----------



## Andy_ROC

jamesdeluxe said:


> While I wasn't a fan of suspected uncleanliness, that didn't prevent me from going at least three times weekly over two decades to New York Sports Clubs in the city and NJ. I'd argue that a true germophobe wouldn't.


Did you ever see George Costanza urinating in the shower?


----------



## Brownski

You make a good point of course. You don’t have to justify anything to me.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

This discussion reminds me of listening to Howard Stern in the early 00s when our previous president was a frequent (and very entertaining) guest. He often mentioned being a germophobe and especially not wanting to shake hands with the hundreds of people he met every day because "who the hell knew where their hands had been?" He proposed that bowing heads like in some Asian countries would be a better idea.


----------



## tirolski

Politics FTW.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Forgot to finish my thought (which wasn't political) -- that what he said about bowing instead of shaking hands made sense to me, so who knows, maybe I am the g-word.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jamesdeluxe said:


> This discussion reminds me of listening to Howard Stern in the early 00


He was the best back then


----------



## snoloco

On the first day of no mask mandate in New York, from what I saw, hardly anyone is wearing a mask. For anyone who attempts to claim that mask wearing is popular, I suggest that you don't confuse compliance with support.


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> On the first day of no mask mandate in New York, from what I saw, hardly anyone is wearing a mask. For anyone who attempts to claim that mask wearing is popular, I suggest that you don't confuse compliance with support.


It’s a pretty big state. How much of it did you see?


----------



## Tjf1967

snoloco said:


> On the first day of no mask mandate in New York, from what I saw, hardly anyone is wearing a mask. For anyone who attempts to claim that mask wearing is popular, I suggest that you don't confuse compliance with support.


I still wear mine in public places. Do you notice how many ugly people are out there?


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> On the first day of no mask mandate in New York, from what I saw, hardly anyone is wearing a mask. For anyone who attempts to claim that mask wearing is popular, I suggest that you don't confuse compliance with support.


In the office, looks like about half of people are wearing masks. Walked into a bank, everyone was wearing masks. Walked into a sandwich place, nobody was wearing a mask.

I’m not wearing a mask today, but that doesn’t mean I think I’m smarter than everyone or that I think I possess some special superpower because I whined two weeks ago.


----------



## Ripitz




----------



## Andy_ROC

snoloco said:


> On the first day of no mask mandate in New York, from what I saw, hardly anyone is wearing a mask. For anyone who attempts to claim that mask wearing is popular, I suggest that you don't confuse compliance with support.


or maybe they stopped wearing masks because the dramatically falling numbers-- both positive cases and hospital occupancy, which a spike drove the mandate in the first place? The start and end of an official mandate is one element of working together. That's what mature thinkers do--- they think beyond themselves. 

Acting like complying with a mask mandate is some sort of hardship? I guess it is for the soft and entitled.


----------



## snoloco

Here comes the pile-on. Given that the two of you ended up doing the same thing I did, it really shows that the two of you are just looking for a fight.


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> Here comes the pile-on. Given that the two of you ended up doing the same thing I did, it really shows that the two of you are just looking for a fight.


You set out the bait and then lay there waiting with anticipation for the pile on you silly goose.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> For anyone who attempts to claim that mask wearing is popular


I don't think I ever heard anyone say wearing a mask was popular.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> Here comes the pile-on. .


----------



## Andy_ROC

snoloco said:


> Here comes the pile-on. Given that the two of you ended up doing the same thing I did, it really shows that the two of you are just looking for a fight.


Where did anyone claim that anyone likes wearing masks? I explained what drove the mandate, why people complied, why the mandate was dropped and why many people now feel more comfortable not wearing a mask.

As for looking for a fight, wasn't it you that came here goading first?


----------



## Face4Me

I was at Whiteface this morning skiing with two friends. On our first gondola ride, it was the three of us, and they loaded a young woman and another gentleman, who I'm assuming was her father. The three of us did not have our masks up, but the other two people did. As the doors closed, it became apparent to me that the young woman was uncomfortable with us not wearing our masks, so I immediately pulled mine up.

I didn't do it because I had to, nor because I wanted to. I did it because it was clear that it would make her more comfortable, and at the end of the day, is it really that big a deal? On my subsequent rides up, where no one was wearing masks, I didn't wear mine either.

Sometimes, it's OK to do something for someone else just because it's the decent thing to do, instead of always thinking about yourself. Sadly, that seems to be a pretty foreign concept in today's world.


----------



## JTG

Face4Me said:


> I was at Whiteface this morning skiing with two friends. On our first gondola ride, it was the three of us, and they loaded a young woman and another gentleman, who I'm assuming was her father. The three of us did not have our masks up, but the other two people did. As the doors closed, it became apparent to me that the young woman was uncomfortable with us not wearing our masks, so I immediately pulled mine up.
> 
> I didn't do it because I had to, nor because I wanted to. I did it because it was clear that it would make her more comfortable, and at the end of the day, is it really that big a deal? On my subsequent rides up, where no one was wearing masks, I didn't wear mine either.
> 
> Sometimes, it's OK to do something for someone else just because it's the decent thing to do, instead of always thinking about yourself. Sadly, that seems to be a pretty foreign concept in today's world.


Pish! You people…having respect and compassion for others. 

It is nice not having to worry about a mask in the lodge at Platty today.


----------



## tirolski

Today the chocolate got cold skiing.


----------



## Harvey

At our office we have a wide variety of covid nervousness among our coworkers. We sit at our desks unmasked if we want to, and pull up a mask when we get up to be in common area. It works pretty well. I have the fan running all the time, since September. None of our people have gotten sick (or had symptoms maybe) since we came back. We do have a lot of space, 3000 sq feet for 12 of us in the location. 

I feel there are two groups who aren't anxious now. Those who never were anxious, and those who were but have been max vaxxed and maybe even had the vid once or twice. I'm in that second group.

My biggest concern now for covid is the mental health our society.


----------



## tirolski

Covid is as neurological disease too.
Folks losing there sense of smell is common.
That’s neuro.


----------



## G.ski

Harvey said:


> My biggest concern now for covid is the mental health our society.


Something that should have been considered more carefully before now.

In some cases damage already done.


----------



## tirolski

Mental health problems in the USA are nothing new, sadly.
Ever watch the Soft White Underbelly series?


----------



## snoloco

Harvey said:


> My biggest concern now for covid is the mental health our society.


Definitely has been the biggest issue for me lately. I feel like the only way I will be happy and not constantly stressed out is if I move to a place that's less covid-obsessed. It sucks because I really like where I live now, but at the same time I feel like I have no choice but to leave it.


----------



## DomB

snoloco said:


> Definitely has been the biggest issue for me lately. I feel like the only way I will be happy and not constantly stressed out is if I move to a place that's less covid-obsessed. It sucks because I really like where I live now, but at the same time I feel like I have no choice but to leave it.


Sno, for what it is worth, while possibly temporary depending on what happens summer and winter surge, the numbers and steps suggest masks are going away or substantially reduced between now and the coming months. 

I happen to be pro-mask, but no one can deny the mental health toll of all this. I believe this has been particularly hard for your age group down to high school and then extremely young kids to say 4 or 5 who didn't get pre-k normal socialization.


----------



## Face4Me

Harvey said:


> My biggest concern now for covid is the mental health our society.


I was concerned about that LONG before COVID came around.


----------



## tirolski

snoloco said:


> Definitely has been the biggest issue for me lately. I feel like the only way I will be happy and not constantly stressed out is if I move to a place that's less covid-obsessed. It sucks because I really like where I live now, but at the same time I feel like I have no choice but to leave it.


Get a good job in the ski industry in Idaho or Montana if ya want to & need a change of “scenery."
You like and know lifts. They’re hiring.
Do what ya love and you’ll never work a day in yer life.
Have yet to ski there but rumor has it that it ain’t bad some days.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> Definitely has been the biggest issue for me lately. I feel like the only way I will be happy and not constantly stressed out is if I move to a place that's less covid-obsessed. It sucks because I really like where I live now, but at the same time I feel like I have no choice but to leave it.


For me it's more about how it affects those around me. My own stress is gone. 

But my 15 yo feels limited, her social circle is small and hasn't changed in two years. Slowly now other girls are coming into the picture and it is helping. My wife feels this all deeply too. Of course that affects me too.

Do you know anyone in NH? I guess @witch hobble and @riverc0il are the only people I know. What are the important best and worst things about NH guys? One thing, you'd ski a different set of mountains, and probably become and encyclopedia on NH and ME too. 

It is was me, I'd certainly give it until summer, and if covid is way down, I'd be tempted to stay until fall to see if we are getting another wave. If we aren't, maybe problem solved? If we are, you can see what happens. Will there be mask mandates?

Personally I think we are right on verge of dumping mask mandates. From what I've seen everyone is done with them on both sides, vaxxed and unvaxxed. If you are vulnerable of live with someone who is, you'll wear an N95 indoors.


----------



## witch hobble

Harvey said:


> Do you know anyone in NH? I guess @witch hobble and @riverc0il are the only people I know. What are the important best and worst things about NH guys?



First, I’d suggest a better reason for moving than a perception of how you think the state’s political identity will affect your mental health. 

But, seeing as we generally hemorrhage young people around here and like VT and Maine we are a very old state, average age wise……maybe we could use sno’s youthful enthusiasm (?) in the shire. High property taxes, housing shortage, crappy roads. Ocean, mountains, lakes, farms, old industrial cities in various stages of decay or comeback. It’s a good place to be.

A NY analogy: The White mountains have Adirondack high peak type elevation and scenery, but have Catskill like accessibility from the Bos-Wash megalopolis. The North-South interstate highway cuts right up between 4000’+ peaks. So you can get to cool places easily, but so can everyone else.

He went to Clarkson, so unless he has a niche I picture he’s looking for an engineer type job, which most likely puts him somewhere around Manchester, Nashua. Southern tier of the state…..actually lots and lots of people there more likely to be fleeing commie Massachusetts instead of commie NY. Maybe he’ll fit right in actually.


----------



## Brownski

Hey Sno, how are your parents doing? At your age, spending a weekend at home and executing a classic “return to the womb” can be energizing. Hang out, eat some pop tarts, watch cartoons and ignore the outside world for two days. There’s nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn’t become a full time crutch. And I’m sure they’d be glad to have you.


----------



## snoloco

I've heard of other instances where people fled New York State for the same reason, and ended up being much happier. That's really why I'm considering it. It's fine now with the numbers going down, but every time cases rise, the fearmongering, threats, and shaming are just relentless. I pretty much spent every day from late fall to now in constant fear that we were going to get slapped with pointless, punitive, and ineffective restrictions in a futile attempt to "slow the spread". It really made me feel like a prisoner, in that I had no control over decisions relating to my personal health. Seeing the actions the state health department taking, it sure looks like they are setting up to do this every winter. Let's say that covid isn't bad next winter, but there's a bad flu season. Are they going to try to mandate masks for that? It seems like a permanent shift to make our lives revolve around respiratory viruses. I've lived in New York State my whole life. I don't really want to leave, but I feel like it's never going to be the same here again. I was in New Hampshire at the peak of their Omicron wave, and yet it felt normal. It is possible to move on, even though it might require moving out.


----------



## Ripitz

I’m glad I live in NY right now and not Ukraine.


----------



## snoloco

I don't really think that's a good comparison. It's a difference of being in danger, vs unhappy. In the coming weeks/months, I might move out of New York State because I don't like it here anymore and want something different. I'm not fleeing an immanent war. I'm certainly glad I live in the United States.


----------



## Ripitz

Go West, young man.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> Go West, young man.


This. 

The world is changing and fast. Go get ya some before it gets real weird and/or your locked down with adult responsibilities.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> This.
> 
> The world is changing and fast. Go get ya some before it gets real weird and/or your locked down with adult responsibilities.


Yes, Sno. Go somewhere. West, North, wherever. Go large, ski your balls off, and don't look back.
Your words are concerning. Don't be constantly stressed. Been there, ain't healthy my Lil buddy. 
Go be happy!!🍻


----------



## tirolski

@snoloco if ya went to Clarkson for engineering and like lifts and skiing these folks have some engineering openings in Grand Junction. It’s Yurpean so ya might be able to go to HQ on the company’s dime. Ya could go inspect the lifts too while getting paid if yer lucky.





						Career Opportunities | Leitner-Poma of America
					






					leitner-poma.com
				









						The Ski Resorts Close to Grand Junction
					

Locals and Colorado natives will tell you some of the best skiing is found near Grand Junction. At these ski resorts near Grand Junction, discover epic powder, fewer crowds, no lift lines, and scenic landscapes.




					www.uncovercolorado.com


----------



## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> Do what ya love and you’ll never work a day in yer life.


That's a nice aspirational thought; however, like many things in life, it's a YMMV deal. Sometimes, converting your passion into the way you earn a living ruins it. That said; I agree -- Sno should certainly pursue a career in ski infrastructure.


----------



## Harvey

jamesdeluxe said:


> Sometimes, converting your passion into the way you earn a living ruins it.


This happened to me with ceramics. 

That's why I don't want to try to make money with NYSB. The guy committed to fundraising can't be having fun.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> The guy committed to fundraising can't be having fun.


Isn’t that’s why it’s spelled *fun*d*raising?*


----------



## Warp daddy

Ok so here 's a different POV : based on 78 years of living and study

1. Life is whatever YOU make it .

2. winners in Life learn how to ADAPT and DEAL with circumstances .

3 . Perfection or Idealism is a LOUSY goal and because it neither exists nor is it attainable and often leads to a psychological phenomenon called the IFD syndrome . ( Idealism leads to Frustration which if unsatisfied leads to Demoralisation ) antidote ( see number 2 above ).

4. And heres a very harsh reality : Whatever you think it is , It ISN'T . Our inability to foresee un foreseeable events , circumstances and attitudes and behaviors in any location often leads to remorse . So be careful what you wish for , it is often NOT what it seems . Test things out for a period especially any contemplated major life changes .

And lastly your attitudes and "perceived " needs as you stretch and grow both psychologically and experientially WILL change . What seems important at the time may be altered as you ADAPT and DEAL with current reality .

Ok flame away. Boyz


----------



## tirolski

Be here now.

Snowflakes twinkling in the air as the sun shines.


----------



## DomB

Warp daddy said:


> Ok so here 's a different POV : based on 78 years of living and study
> 
> 1. Life is whatever YOU make it .
> 
> 2. winners in Life learn how to ADAPT and DEAL with circumstances .
> 
> 3 . Perfection or Idealism is a LOUSY goal and because it neither exists nor is it attainable and often leads to a psychological phenomenon called the IFD syndrome . ( Idealism leads to Frustration which if unsatisfied leads to Demoralisation ) antidote ( see number 2 above ).
> 
> 4. And heres a very harsh reality : Whatever you think it is , It ISN'T . Our inability to foresee un foreseeable events , circumstances and attitudes and behaviors in any location often leads to remorse . So be careful what you wish for , it is often NOT what it seems . Test things out for a period especially any contemplated major life changes .
> 
> And lastly your attitudes and "perceived " needs as you stretch and grow both psychologically and experientially WILL change . What seems important at the time may be altered as you ADAPT and DEAL with current reality .
> 
> Ok flame away. Boyz


Thread drift: Warp thanks for dropping this wisdom. I have some recollection you are an academic. If I am correct would be interested in some of our stuff. Not an academic but trained to research so while sometimes stuff goes over my head (Covid scientific papers) I can usually squeeze some juice. 

Back to your wisdom: my main goal for parenting is to work to install resiliency (I know I can't even control if my kids will be resilient) and to let them know they are loved. Process, not outcomes. 

I'm 42, and one of the best gifts I have ever had is that I usually think I am wrong, which leads me to focus on thinking through an issue; that, if you have the right inputs and a good process, can lead to good decisionmaking outcomes. 100% is the perfect the enemy of the good.


----------



## BRLKED

Warp daddy said:


> Ok so here 's a different POV : based on 78 years of living and study
> 
> 1. Life is whatever YOU make it .
> 
> 2. winners in Life learn how to ADAPT and DEAL with circumstances .
> 
> 3 . Perfection or Idealism is a LOUSY goal and because it neither exists nor is it attainable and often leads to a psychological phenomenon called the IFD syndrome . ( Idealism leads to Frustration which if unsatisfied leads to Demoralisation ) antidote ( see number 2 above ).
> 
> 4. And heres a very harsh reality : Whatever you think it is , It ISN'T . Our inability to foresee un foreseeable events , circumstances and attitudes and behaviors in any location often leads to remorse . So be careful what you wish for , it is often NOT what it seems . Test things out for a period especially any contemplated major life changes .
> 
> And lastly your attitudes and "perceived " needs as you stretch and grow both psychologically and experientially WILL change . What seems important at the time may be altered as you ADAPT and DEAL with current reality .
> 
> Ok flame away. Boyz


Accept what it is, however it is because it already is.


----------



## Warp daddy

DomB said:


> Thread drift: Warp thanks for dropping this wisdom. I have some recollection you are an academic. If I am correct would be interested in some of our stuff. Not an academic but trained to research so while sometimes stuff goes over my head (Covid scientific papers) I can usually squeeze some juice.
> 
> Back to your wisdom: my main goal for parenting is to work to install resiliency (I know I can't even control if my kids will be resilient) and to let them know they are loved. Process, not outcomes.
> 
> I'm 42, and one of the best gifts I have ever had is that I usually think I am wrong, which leads me to focus on thinking through an issue; that, if you have the right inputs and a good process, can lead to good decisionmaking outcomes. 100% is the perfect the enemy of the good.


Ty Dom . You are right on target on both scores .

I am an academic ( former college president ) also owned an Executive / Leadership Development consulting outfit for 20 yrs .

BUT More importantly you are absolutely doing the right things with your children . Instilling the values you cite not only models successful behavior BUT gives them the tools they will need to reach their full potential , and that my friend is OUR greatest gift to our kids .

Have fun with them and make great memories while on the mountain ! They sustain you in later life !


----------



## MarzNC

Warp daddy said:


> Ty Dom . You are right on target on both scores .
> 
> I am an academic ( former college president ) also owned an Executive / Leadership Development consulting outfit for 20 yrs .
> 
> BUT More importantly you are absolutely doing the right things with your children . Instilling the values you cite not only models successful behavior BUT gives them the tools they will need to reach their full potential , and that my friend is OUR greatest gift to our kids .
> 
> Have fun with them and make great memories while on the mountain ! They sustain you in later life !


I'm somewhere in the middle between @Warp daddy and @DomB when it comes to life experience. I turned 65 in 2021, am the daughter of two academics (chemistry, social work) who were forced to immigrate by a major political shift in 1949 after returning to their home country with American Ph.D.'s, as professors, I opted to work in industry and not academia after finishing a Ph.D., and my daughter is about to graduate from college.

My mother not only modeled flexibility as her life shifted drastically due to history world events (Japan's invasion of China, Pearl Harbor, and so on, she actively told me family stories after I was an adult and later a parent. So what I didn't know about how my parents made family decisions wasn't lost because I wasn't born yet, or too young to remember. There are relevant stories I tell my daughter every so often, as well as my brother's daughter who is a bit older.


----------



## timbly

You can be miserable anywhere. Choose to not be.


----------



## raisingarizona

Well, duh.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/10-reasons-why-scientists-believe-070505210.html


----------



## MC2

I can not believe there’s so much talk about snoloco.

If he wants to stay, he’ll stay. If he wants to leave, he’ll leave. Personally, I think he’s too much of a scared, delicate flower to do anything requiring balls, so he’ll stay exactly where he is. And yes, that is a challenge.

Prove me wrong or STFU, sno.


----------



## Ripitz

MC2 said:


> I can not believe there’s so much talk about snoloco.
> 
> If he wants to stay, he’ll stay. If he wants to leave, he’ll leave. Personally, I think he’s too much of a scared, delicate flower to do anything requiring balls, so he’ll stay exactly where he is. And yes, that is a challenge.
> 
> Prove me wrong or STFU, sno.


Do you always have to be an asshole? How about posting something constructive once in a while or STFU?


----------



## MC2

Ripitz said:


> Do you always have to be an asshole? How about posting something constructive once in a while or STFU?


It was constructive. I hope it’s motivating (because I agree with you guys).

He needs to move, but he’s not the kind of guy that would move. This is the way to get him to go. Have you met him, Ripitz?


----------



## Ripitz

I haven’t met him. Hopefully someday we can spin a few laps together. That goes for everyone here.


----------



## jasonwx

Sno is still a kid. 
Navigating through strange times. 
My kids are in their mid to late 20’s and say and do some harebrained stuff too.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Sno is still a kid.
> Navigating through strange times.
> My kids are in their mid to late 20’s and say and do some harebrained stuff too.


I know 💯 my Dad would say that about me. 🤠


----------



## MC2

Ripitz said:


> I haven’t met him. Hopefully someday we can spin a few laps together. That goes for everyone here.


I’ve skied with him once and talked to him enough to know that he has some vacation time he’s been saving. He should use it to go to Portsmouth or North Conway and see if he can envision himself living there (although, really, he should fly to Bozeman or Boise & do that).


----------



## Campgottagopee

Bozeman FTW


----------



## raisingarizona

MC2 said:


> I’ve skied with him once and talked to him enough to know that he has some vacation time he’s been saving. He should use it to go to Portsmouth or North Conway and see if he can envision himself living there (although, really, he should fly to Bozeman or Boise & do that).


It hasn’t snowed out here for like 77 years now. 

I think that’s about to change starting this week.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> It hasn’t snowed out here for like 77 years now.
> 
> I think that’s about to change starting this week.


It rained beer south of ya after the ace in Scottsdale on Saturday, so there’s that.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492644223774035969


----------



## DomB

Oh - I think this would go here - after the mask mandate lifted (other than ski school programs) this weekend at Gore, I don't know if it was a coincidence, but the ADK chair had a singles line for the first time that i can remember this season, which I took advantage of when kiddos were in the 6 week program. Not sure if the Gondi had the same.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> .....
> My biggest concern now for covid is the mental health our society.


Sadly mental health was a growing problem even prior to covid. Covid was like throwing gas on it. IMHO people are spending way too much time living in the socially toxic environments available on Facebook, Twitter and other areas of the internet. Not to mention the toxic AM radio talk shows that I hear up and down the dial.

As for the NY mask mandate being lifted, I still noticed about 50/50 in Wegmans wearing this past weekend. I doubt those wearing "like wearing masks" but are doing what they feel is right for themselves, their families or just a simple courtesy to others. I'll probably keep wearing mine in Wegmans as a courtesy until I see masks wane significantly. Also keeping my mask on and pulling my hat down low keeps me incognito so no need for any "stop and chats" --- You Curb Your Enthusiasm fans know what I mean by that  

Skiing this weekend I saw a few people wearing them on the mountain which I thought kind of odd as I hadn't noticed that before. Maybe 20%-30% were wearing masks as they walked around the lodge. One person I know personally was because they have a new grandbaby. 

Last Thursday I met some friends at a local pub for dinner and beers and almost no one was wearing masks and no one in my group of friends was. Oddly though, I walked into the establishment at the same time as a doctor I know and she was wearing a mask. Made me doubt my no mask choice for a moment  

As for work, while I do most my work at my home office, when I do go in we still have a pretty strict policy. Must be worn unless seated at your desk. I have a high risk co-worker so wearing is the easy choice. 

While I was in Utah 2 weeks ago the signage at many locations said masks required. In practice it was very mixed but mostly no masks.--- In lots of places even staff weren't wearing masks. Other establishments the compliance was fairly high. For me, if staff was then I would. If not, the mask would stay off. I didn't get upset because I was wearing a mask. 

Interesting to note that Denmark has dropped all restrictions. While they are seeing cases rise, most IMPORTANTLY hospitalizations are not so far. It's also worth noting that as a nation they have one of the highest vaxed and boosted rates, far higher than the USA. Who knows maybe it backfires on them, but hopefully not. I'll be watching. 

Seems like (in a good way) the end of this is near and some people need to chill out


----------



## Brownski

MC2 said:


> …. He should use it to go to Portsmouth or North Conway and see if he can envision himself living there (although, really, he should fly to Bozeman or Boise & do that).


This is actually great advice too. If you have vacation time you should do this Sno.


----------



## witch hobble

MC2 said:


> He should use it to go to Portsmouth or North Conway and see if he can envision himself living there (although, really, he should fly to Bozeman or Boise & do that).


I don’t know sno at all other than his posts here over the last ? years. A bunch….we were giving him advice about not bailing on high school to go to his early college program at Clarkson.

I agree he should look west. But he should probably try to envision whether he can live somewhere he might actually live, not a vacation destination (unless he truly is going to live a ski bum life, which would be great but seems unlikely). Spend time in NoCo and Portsmouth, but go look around the Manch, Nashua, maybe Rochester or Berlin or somewhere in the Upper Valley. Somewhere where there are the Mech Engineer type jobs I picture he has.

Kid has been ignoring our advice for the better part of a decade. Not sure why he would start heeding it now.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> As for the NY mask mandate being lifted, I still noticed about 50/50 in Wegmans wearing this past weekend. I doubt those wearing "like wearing masks" but are doing what they feel is right for themselves, their families or just a simple courtesy to others. I'll probably keep wearing mine in Wegmans as a courtesy until I see masks wane significantly. Also keeping my mask on and pulling my hat down low keeps me incognito so no need for any "stop and chats" --- You Curb Your Enthusiasm fans know what I mean by that


There hasn't been a mask mandate for the entire state of NC for a long time. A few counties or metropolitan areas put it back for a while for Delta, and then Omicron. In my neighborhood the behavior of most of the customers never changed. The Wegmans near my house was still requiring masking as of late January (I left for Taos in early Feb). But even if that requirement is dropped, I don't expect everyone who shops there to stop masking.

New Mexico still requires masking in restaurants as of Feb 2022. Or at least the counties that include Taos and Albuquerque do. Although I'm pretty sure it's a statewide requirement.

There are a few more people who are defying the federal mandate to mask in airports. Meaning they don't even have a mask in sight even though it's very clear they know the rules. But we're talking 2 guys out of hundreds of people walking around the B terminal in Chicago at Midway airport (all Southwest). I could overhear their comments as the past by where I was standing. Had a pretty long layover for ABQ-MDW-RDU yesterday.

Observed a similar situation in SLC in April 2021, but then it was one family among thousands of people in a much bigger and busier airport. In that case, the parents and teen son were unmasked but the teen daughter was masked.


----------



## Warp daddy

witch hobble said:


> I don’t know sno at all other than his posts here over the last ? years. A bunch….we were giving him advice about not bailing on high school to go to his early college program at Clarkson.
> 
> I agree he should look west. But he should probably try to envision whether he can live somewhere he might actually live, not a vacation destination (unless he truly is going to live a ski bum life, which would be great but seems unlikely). Spend time in NoCo and Portsmouth, but go look around the Manch, Nashua, maybe Rochester or Berlin or somewhere in the Upper Valley. Somewhere where there are the Mech Engineer type jobs I picture he has.
> 
> Kid has been ignoring our advice for the better part of a decade. Not sure why he would start heeding it now.


Right you are Witchy ! On all counts !

BTW : just curious , its been awhile , hows Ragged and Tenney doing these days ?


----------



## witch hobble

Warp daddy said:


> Right you are Witchy ! On all counts !
> 
> BTW : just curious , its been awhile , hows Ragged and Tenney doing these days ?


Hey Warp!

Tenney has not reopened since they closed “due to Covid-19” (really their waterbars had opened up and the snow was melted everywhere) in March 2020. Their social media, which was very active for a time before they reopened in 2018, has been on radio silence. And I have not bothered to skin for Tenney laps (I’m sure the beech whip, puckerbrush, balsam regeneration on the trails is thickening each summer). It’s unfortunate, because it is such an easy, quick sneak away for me.

I haven’t skied Ragged in probably 7or8 years, but have several friends who did the Ragged with Indy pass this year who are enjoying it a lot. Although they were having some lift issues on their 6 pack early on.

I’ve been a Cannon passholder since leaving NY, had Tenney pass too when they were functional in 08-10, and 18-20. And was faithful chaperone of my kids’ winter program at Loon back when they were a bit younger, which got me those days as well as a few comps a year.

At this point I’m basically 100% Cannon days. And whitewater paddling more in winter than I used to…..due to climate change, some better gear, and some friends who prefer it to skiing.


----------



## Warp daddy

witch hobble said:


> Hey Warp!
> 
> Tenney has not reopened since they closed “due to Covid-19” (really their waterbars had opened up and the snow was melted everywhere) in March 2020. Their social media, which was very active for a time before they reopened in 2018, has been on radio silence. And I have not bothered to skin for Tenney laps (I’m sure the beech whip, puckerbrush, balsam regeneration on the trails is thickening each summer). It’s unfortunate, because it is such an easy, quick sneak away for me.
> 
> I haven’t skied Ragged in probably 7or8 years, but have several friends who did the Ragged with Indy pass this year who are enjoying it a lot. Although they were having some lift issues on their 6 pack early on.
> 
> I’ve been a Cannon passholder since leaving NY, had Tenney pass too when they were functional in 08-10, and 18-20. And was faithful chaperone of my kids’ winter program at Loon back when they were a bit younger, which got me those days as well as a few comps a year.
> 
> At this point I’m basically 100% Cannon days. And whitewater paddling more in winter than I used to…..due to climate change, some better gear, and some friends who prefer it to skiing.


Hey its all good my man 😉. I totally get yer Cannon love , the place is real , no pretense , no frills all game . 

NH has some awesome venues , great place. I have only done those two and Attitash and Gunstock . On several trips up my son loved Cannon .We have family near Concord Ma so its an easy run up from there for some overnighters .

My reccollection of 10E was decent skiing at a fair price but the sloooooowest lift to the summit i think i was ever on , but hey 2 outta 3 ain't bad according to the late Meatloaf 😎😈


----------



## sibhusky

Brownski said:


> This is actually great advice too. If you have vacation time you should do this Sno.


Having made such a move close to 20 years ago, my biggest suggestion is, if you're moving for the skiing, DON'T GO DURING SKI SEASON. For one thing, you're going to want to ski, not evaluate the town, the people who actually live there, and what else there is to do in the area. In addition, the entire character and ambiance of the town will change during the off season. You want to meet the actual inhabitants, figure out how far away the places you'll need to go are, read the local papers, see what's open in the off season, check out the medical facilities, look at the available real estate or rentals, etc. Going during ski season you'll get entirely the wrong idea about what it is like to live there. Ideally, a trip in spring, summer, fall, and winter would be the best. Chances are, moving from NE to almost any ski area in the Rockies, the SKIING will be fine.

Next, worry about how to support yourself and check local wages against local living expenses. If you plan to work remote, how good is the internet infrastructure supporting the actual target area you want to live? The house next door was sold to a Seattle couple who thought they'd work and school their kids here. After they moved they discovered DSL to their house was only 1.5 down, less up. Starlink wasn't possible due to too many trees. So back they went to Seattle. If you're single, testing the waters by just showing up sounds possible, but the housing issue in ski areas in the Rockies is huge at the moment. Here there has been an increase of over 30,000 people in 18 months. There was only a 15,400 count increase between 2010-2020. That's just in one county of roughly 100,000 people. Elsewhere, like in Bozeman, the explosion began sooner. It's a totally different place than it used to be and you'll be commuting from pretty far away with real estate and rental prices the way they are now.


----------



## Warp daddy

sibhusky said:


> Having made such a move close to 20 years ago, my biggest suggestion is, if you're moving for the skiing, DON'T GO DURING SKI SEASON. For one thing, you're going to want to ski, not evaluate the town, the people who actually live there, and what else there is to do in the area. In addition, the entire character and ambiance of the town will change during the off season. You want to meet the actual inhabitants, figure out how far away the places you'll need to go are, read the local papers, see what's open in the off season, check out the medical facilities, look at the available real estate or rentals, etc. Going during ski season you'll get entirely the wrong idea about what it is like to live there. Ideally, a trip in spring, summer, fall, and winter would be the best. Chances are, moving from NE to almost any ski area in the Rockies, the SKIING will be fine.
> 
> Next, worry about how to support yourself and check local wages against local living expenses. If you plan to work remote, how good is the internet infrastructure supporting the actual target area you want to live? The house next door was sold to a Seattle couple who thought they'd work and school their kids here. After they moved they discovered DSL to their house was only 1.5 down, less up. Starlink wasn't possible due to too many trees. So back they went to Seattle. If you're single, testing the waters by just showing up sounds possible, but the housing issue in ski areas in the Rockies is huge at the moment. Here there has been an increase of over 30,000 people in 18 months. There was only a 15,400 count increase between 2010-2020. That's just in one county of roughly 100,000 people. Elsewhere, like in Bozeman, the explosion began sooner. It's a totally different place than it used to be and you'll be commuting from pretty far away with real estate and rental prices the way they are now.


----------



## Warp daddy

Solid Advice SH 👍🏻💯


----------



## tirolski

Warp daddy said:


> Solid Advice SH 👍🏻💯


This?
..."_my biggest suggestion is, if you're moving for the skiing, DON'T GO DURING SKI SEASON."_
and
_"Going during ski season you'll get entirely the wrong idea about what it is like to live there."_
You’ll get a good idea of what it’s like to live there in the ski season, it's at least an important third of the year.


----------



## tirolski

witch hobble said:


> Tenney has not reopened since they closed “due to Covid-19” (really their waterbars had opened up and the snow was melted everywhere) in March 2020. Their social media, which was very active for a time before they reopened in 2018, has been on radio silence. And I have not bothered to skin for Tenney laps (I’m sure the beech whip, puckerbrush, balsam regeneration on the trails is thickening each summer). It’s unfortunate, because it is such an easy, quick sneak away for me.


Lots of stuff with pics about Tenney here.


			Defunct Since COVID - NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Lots of stuff with pics about Tenney here.
> 
> 
> Defunct Since COVID - NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com


What was really different about Tenney is that when the group that was led by Michael Bouchard didn't buy the land with the idea of re-opening the ski area. Plan was to take down the lifts and move ahead with general development of the land around the base. The story of why the situation switched to an effort to get the lifts re-certified in order to maintain grandfather status was told at several public meetings in the first year or so. The amount of damage done by the previous GM to the snowmaking infrastructure was significant.

Hopefully community support will build and a way forward to running the lifts again will be found.


----------



## Campgottagopee

sibhusky said:


> Having made such a move close to 20 years ago, my biggest suggestion is, if you're moving for the skiing, DON'T GO DURING SKI SEASON. For one thing, you're going to want to ski, not evaluate the town, the people who actually live there, and what else there is to do in the area. In addition, the entire character and ambiance of the town will change during the off season. You want to meet the actual inhabitants, figure out how far away the places you'll need to go are, read the local papers, see what's open in the off season, check out the medical facilities, look at the available real estate or rentals, etc. Going during ski season you'll get entirely the wrong idea about what it is like to live there. Ideally, a trip in spring, summer, fall, and winter would be the best. Chances are, moving from NE to almost any ski area in the Rockies, the SKIING will be fine.
> 
> Next, worry about how to support yourself and check local wages against local living expenses. If you plan to work remote, how good is the internet infrastructure supporting the actual target area you want to live? The house next door was sold to a Seattle couple who thought they'd work and school their kids here. After they moved they discovered DSL to their house was only 1.5 down, less up. Starlink wasn't possible due to too many trees. So back they went to Seattle. If you're single, testing the waters by just showing up sounds possible, but the housing issue in ski areas in the Rockies is huge at the moment. Here there has been an increase of over 30,000 people in 18 months. There was only a 15,400 count increase between 2010-2020. That's just in one county of roughly 100,000 people. Elsewhere, like in Bozeman, the explosion began sooner. It's a totally different place than it used to be and you'll be commuting from pretty far away with real estate and rental prices the way they are now.


Yikes 
When I moved to ski bum it was the middle of ski season. I drove up on a Friday with 4 pair of skis, 1 pair of boots, and a hockey bag full of my clothes and ski gear. I had 500 bucks on me and the only thing I knew for sure was I had to be at the mountain on Monday morning by 8. Slept in my car for 2 nights before I found a place to live. 
To me, it was one big adventure. Wouldn't change a thing.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Yikes
> When I moved to ski bum it was the middle of ski season. I drove up on a Friday with 4 pair of skis, 1 pair of boots, and a hockey bag full of my clothes and ski gear. I had 500 bucks on me and the only thing I knew for sure was I had to be at the mountain on Monday morning by 8. Slept in my car for 2 nights before I found a place to live.
> To me, it was one big adventure. Wouldn't change a thing.


I was in my GMC Safari in Lake Tahoe because I knew one of the employees at Fallen Leaf Lake Campground from my summer job in Alaska. I was gonna work at Heavenly but everybody told me Alpine Meadows was the place for me- the laid back place the locals liked to ski- so I went and applied there instead. I slept in the van alot longer than two days but hooked up with some other lifties at orientation that were renting a house. Once I unloaded my shit, we went to all the construction sites around Truckee and filled the van with scrap lumber for our wood stove. Fun.


----------



## Ripitz

I was working at the hotel in Big Sky one summer when a long haired kid from Vermont showed up looking for a job. He had grown up near Magic and was surprised I had even heard of it. He was living in a packed full hatchback that he had rallied straight from his high school graduation. He told me he was there to get set up for winter and that he would take any job. I informed him of the company’s grooming policies and offered him a dishwashing job. He didn’t have any money so I took him to the hotel stylist and paid for his haircut. I told him his car was too small to live in and set him up in the Mountain Lodge. He was so grateful. Years later after moving back east I returned on vacation and he was the head pastry chef. I often wonder where he is now.


----------



## jasonwx

Love these stories !


----------



## sibhusky

Campgottagopee said:


> Yikes
> When I moved to ski bum it was the middle of ski season. I drove up on a Friday with 4 pair of skis, 1 pair of boots, and a hockey bag full of my clothes and ski gear. I had 500 bucks on me and the only thing I knew for sure was I had to be at the mountain on Monday morning by 8. Slept in my car for 2 nights before I found a place to live.
> To me, it was one big adventure. Wouldn't change a thing.


You're not going to find a place to live here in two nights unless it's 20 miles away and you're sharing a house with 6 of your best friends. That was not the case as recently as 5 years back, but it is now. All the places that used to have rentals have gotten into the VRBO thing. Friends spent 4 months looking for a long term rental after they sold their house and they had plenty of $, having just sold the house for $3 mil.

Current HOUSE listings:



Rentals, you're not in the bum category with these until you're sharing a room with 4 buddies in each bedroom. Maybe you've got a trust fund.



The fact still remains that the character of a ski town is totally different in the off season. Some turn into these spooky ghost towns.


----------



## tirolski

Whitefish, being near Glacier Park-Flathead Lake, would still busy in the “off season”, summer, I would imagine.


----------



## Campgottagopee

sibhusky said:


> You're not going to find a place to live here in two nights unless it's 20 miles away and you're sharing a house with 6 of your best friends. That was not the case as recently as 5 years back, but it is now. All the places that used to have rentals have gotten into the VRBO thing. Friends spent 4 months looking for a long term rental after they sold their house and they had plenty of $, having just sold the house for $3 mil.
> 
> Current HOUSE listings:
> View attachment 13000
> Rentals, you're not in the bum category with these until you're sharing a room with 4 buddies in each bedroom. Maybe you've got a trust fund.
> View attachment 13004
> The fact still remains that the character of a ski town is totally different in the off season. Some turn into these spooky ghost towns.


Exactly
It's so different now than it was in the late 80's.


----------



## Warp daddy

tirolski said:


> Lots of stuff with pics about Tenney here.
> 
> 
> Defunct Since COVID - NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com


 Thanks Tski , interesting read ....sad 😟


----------



## snoloco

This is from California and not New York, though the covid response in both states is nearly identical, so you can expect New York to copy them.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494431638599581697
Honestly, it's pretty close to one of my greatest fears over the past 2 years, that there will be an effort to make these measures permanent, or at least on and off every winter.

Here's a good article, basically comparing the way we responded to covid to the war on drugs, and the war on terror. Both went on seemingly forever, had no clear success, and a lot of collateral damage.
https://reason.com/2022/02/17/the-w...e-a-quagmire-americans-need-an-exit-strategy/

This struck me as the best quote from the article: 

"What I suspect is driving discontent with the war on COVID, however, is that you don't need a meta-study to observe the futility of those restrictions. Two years into the pandemic, Americans have seen schools closed and reopened (and sometimes closed again), thousands of businesses shut down and return (sometimes in altered form), masking denigrated as useless then held up as essential, and mask mandates turned on and off and sometimes on again. It's simply not obvious to many people that any of it worked very well to control the virus, or, if it did work somewhat, that it was worth the trade-offs. Masking rules, in particular, are self-evidently arbitrary and absurd, as anyone who has had to mask between a hostess stand and a table or sat maskless at an airport bar surrounded by masked travelers, can see."

In the end, we did a lot of things in the name of stopping covid, which turned out to be futile, or even if it did somewhat work, it wasn't worth the cost. Yet I'm not really seeing the shift in mentality that I'd like to see from the federal government and New York State.


----------



## Brownski

Don't spin out lil bro. You still have New Hampshire


----------



## snoloco

I was very pleased with Governor Sununu's State of the State Address today. He said that "Those who are born in New Hampshire are lucky, and those who move to New Hampshire are smart". That was probably my favorite part of it, as well as the part where he discussed turning "new normal" into "old normal".


----------



## Brownski

It’s gonna be warm. Might be a good weekend to return to the womb. It’ll make you feel better. Ask your mom to toast the pop tarts. They’re way better warm


----------



## MC2

“Here’s a thing that’s happening 3,000 miles from here. Let me tell you why I’m scared of it”

- snoloco


----------



## MarzNC

Almost to the "new normal" in Virginia. The "mask required" or "mask recommended if not vaccinated" signs are gone from the doors to public areas. Apparently mask requirements only for another 10 days for employees. Very few people in the lodge were masked. Given the typical people at Massanutten, vaccination rates are probably fairly high among travelers. Locals are probably a mix of vaccinated and those with natural immunity at this point.


----------



## snoloco

At this point, there are very few statewide mask mandates. In fact, there are only 4, those being Oregon, Washington, Hawaii, and Illinois, and all but Hawaii have set end dates. There are still a lot of local ones though. My concern is that given the seasonal nature of the virus, that blue states will reinstate these mandates every winter. The CDC has floated the idea of changing their recommendations, but I have mixed feelings about that. The current recommendation of masking in counties with substantial or high transmission is ludicrous. In New York, we've been above that threshold for 22 of the last 24 months. In fact, that metric is so ludicrous that even the craziest blue state governors are willing to ignore it. If the CDC were to change their metrics, then I think it still gives these mayors and governors reason to slap the masks back on every winter, and then it becomes a never-ending cycle. On the other hand, more reasonable metrics would give more of the reprieve to the few jurisdictions that actually follow them, like Los Angeles County for instance.


----------



## raisingarizona

Reading up on the Spanish flu in 1918 is a pretty good idea imho. We’ve done all of this before.


----------



## snoloco

Spanish Flu didn't go on this long, with as severe restrictions. Largely because they either didn't work, or were not feasible for multiple years. Spanish Flu ended when everyone got infected and had natural immunity. There was no vaccine, and it killed a lot more people on a per-capita basis than covid has. To say otherwise is revisionist history.

One of the things that really bothers me is how this state prioritized ineffective, yet visible measures that had little to no impact, such as mask mandates and vaccine passports. What really would've saved lives are efforts to make sure anyone who's over 60 or otherwise especially vulnerable gets all 3 vaccine doses. That's harder to do, but something that other countries did quite well. Also useful would've been efforts to increase healthcare system capacity so it doesn't get overhelmed during seasonal waves. This is something New Hampshire actually did. They cut through red tape to streamline nurse licenses, which alleviated staff shortages at hospitals at the height of the winter surge. They also have probably the highest vaccine rate of any purple state, and some of the lowest covid death rates in the country. They also had far less restrictions on businesses than nearby states, and now they have the strongest economy in the Northeast. Whatever they're doing is working.


----------



## Campgottagopee

No law north of Remsen 
Just move to Forestport 
The place is awesome


----------



## jasonwx

first the spanish flu went on for more then 3 yrs
you can move to Florida , there were zero cases and zero restrictions..
also not one case was reported in Wyoming either..so there are many place to go


----------



## Harvey

jasonwx said:


> first the spanish flu went on for more then 3 yrs


True



jasonwx said:


> you can move to Florida


True



jasonwx said:


> there were zero cases and zero restrictions..






jasonwx said:


> also not one case was reported in Wyoming either


----------



## jasonwx

for sno 



https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/02/06/1918-flu-fourth-wave/



Harv, I'm being sarcastic...
that said having been to both places over the last year, i'm not far off


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> . My concern is that given the seasonal nature of the virus, that blue states will reinstate these mandates every winter.


It’s winter now and there are no more mandates.

But keep being scared of things that might happen in the future. Especially things that cause, at most, a minor inconvenience to you. It’s a great way to go through life, constantly concerned about next winter’s flu season. In the middle of summer, you’ll be at some barbecue whining about the possibility of mask requirement for two weeks around Christmas in airports.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> No law north of Remsen
> Just move to Forestport
> The place is awesome


The border might be North Barneveld overpass where the roads split.


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> It’s winter now and there are no more mandates.











Parents question why New York's school mask mandate remains in place while COVID restrictions are lifted across Tri-State Area


Some frustrated parents say it's wrong that children spend six hours a day in a classroom wearing a mask while restrictions are dropping everywhere else.




newyork.cbslocal.com


----------



## gorgonzola

Being the parent of an immuno-suppressed child for 27 years has somewhat desensitized me but I really have a hard time seeing mask mandates as much of a threat to my civil rights or inconvenience. I keep one in my back pocket like a hanky and throw it on if I or others around feel its needed

Happy Friday!


----------



## MC2

tirolski said:


> Parents question why New York's school mask mandate remains in place while COVID restrictions are lifted across Tri-State Area
> 
> 
> Some frustrated parents say it's wrong that children spend six hours a day in a classroom wearing a mask while restrictions are dropping everywhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> newyork.cbslocal.com


Should I have added “that affect you”? I thought it was implied.

Anyway, school mask mandate is over in New Jersey, will be over in NY on March 6th.

As I have said many times before: maybe people should just relax a little?


----------



## Warp daddy

Hey Sno : sign up for Elon Musks Mars self sustaining city deal he plans that in the next 5 years ...sounds about right for you 😉


----------



## Brownski

MC2 said:


> As I have said many times before: maybe people should just relax a little?


Good advice for almost any situation


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> But keep being scared of things that might happen in the future.


This is very true. Scared, concerned, worried, uneasy, or anything else you want to call it isn't healthy. 
As you say, peeps need to relax. It always works out.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> Reading up on the Spanish flu in 1918 is a pretty good idea imho. We’ve done all of this before.


Yep, can be useful background. There are big differences though. The ability to create effective vaccines is an obvious one. Although a bigger factor is that COVID-19 was and is easily spread by people who have no idea that they are infectious. The 1918 disease was a horrible way to die apparently. People learned pretty quickly to stay away from anyone with symptoms. Air travel, the Internet, . . . the list goes on as to why the pandemic that started in 2020 will end somewhat differently than the one a century ago.


----------



## tirolski

Science.








Rising costs of climate change threaten to make skiing a less diverse, even more exclusive sport


Watching skiers compete almost entirely on artificially made snow at the 2022 Winter Olympics, we found it hard not to think about climate change and what it will mean for the future of the winter sports industry—and who will be able to participate.




phys.org


----------



## Warp daddy

Walkup prices are gettng insane had a relative ski Stowe Tuesday for the first time ...154 bucks , 😳many trails not open ....his opinion .Whiteface is a MUCH better deal


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> Science.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rising costs of climate change threaten to make skiing a less diverse, even more exclusive sport
> 
> 
> Watching skiers compete almost entirely on artificially made snow at the 2022 Winter Olympics, we found it hard not to think about climate change and what it will mean for the future of the winter sports industry—and who will be able to participate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> phys.org


Not to sound insensitive, but I think lack of ski customer diversity is the least of our problems when it comes to the impacts of climate change.

I could be very wrong so please feel free to correct me--- As for snow making in general, even if the climate was not changing I don't think the ski industry could have ever grown to what it is today without snow making. I know my local mountain (Bristol) opened in 1964 had one or two runs, no snowmaking and was only open ~10 days a year and in an exceptional year I'm guessing may have been 30-40 days/year. Now with snowmaking they're open 120-140 days a year. 

I'm not trying to diminish the impacts of climate change because I believe it's one of humanities greatest threats. But snow making would have increased even if the climate stayed the same simply because of the unreliability of natural snow, especially in the east. Without reliable snow this would have prohibited the growth of an industry to what we see today.


----------



## raisingarizona

I’d honestly prefer to leave race out of the discussion. A changing climate is going to make skiing more expensive and exclusive. This is about income brackets more than race. At this point it’s pretty obvious that journalists love getting into divisive race topics unfortunately.

Unpopular opinion, I’m not a fan of wealthy white people anf their nonprofits to get underprivileged youth out to try skiing. It’s almost like a slap in their face to show off how the others live and enjoy their lives. Seriously, how many poor, inner city kids will actually take it up after an organization liked Stoked takes them on their first ski trip? I bet close to none. There’s better ways and much more beneficial ways to actually help them imo. I don’t know but the whole idea to me has a rich, out of touch white person vibe to me.


----------



## MC2

raisingarizona said:


> Unpopular opinion….


Certainly didn’t disappoint with that lead-in.

Personally, I don’t think we should say “know your place” to anyone, but maybe that’s just the way I live my life.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> At this point it’s pretty obvious that journalists love getting into divisive race topics unfortunately.


Authors are a professor and a grad student, so there’s that. 
Science.


----------



## witch hobble

raisingarizona said:


> I’d honestly prefer to leave race out of the discussion. A changing climate is going to make skiing more expensive and exclusive. This is about income brackets more than race. At this point it’s pretty obvious that journalists love getting into divisive race topics unfortunately.
> 
> Unpopular opinion, I’m not a fan of wealthy white people anf their nonprofits to get underprivileged youth out to try skiing. It’s almost like a slap in their face to show off how the others live and enjoy their lives. Seriously, how many poor, inner city kids will actually take it up after an organization liked Stoked takes them on their first ski trip? I bet close to none. There’s better ways and much more beneficial ways to actually help them imo. I don’t know but the whole idea to me has a rich, out of touch white person vibe to me.


While I agree that there is an income/socioeconomic aspect to it, it is really hard for me to appreciate how much “representation” matters to people’s decision to be involved. Most skiers and snowboarders in magazines, advertising, in the Olympics and the xgames have the general skin color that I do.

I agree that the percentage of kids who, after getting a chance to try out snowsports thru a program like you described, actually take up the sport is probably very very low.

At the same time, as a chaperone of my kids’ elementary school (largely white small town) Winter Program, where we got to go to Loon every Tuesday afternoon for 5 weeks in January…..I’d say the rate of new lifelong skiers created is really low too.

The kids whose parents ski already had some experience and ability and got to go rip around together for the afternoon…..the kids who had never been got to flail around the bunny slope, with their jeans under Walmart bibs, tucked into rental boots, and a snowboard instructor from South America or maybe a teacher or spare chaperone to try to interest them.

So it just kind of reinforced socioeconomics I hate to say.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> Unpopular opinion


I’m a fan of a few wealthy white kids going to the inner city to play some b-ball and to get some nice beat downs. The program should at least be reciprocal.


----------



## MC2

look at this dickhead:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495123869908316166


----------



## Andy_ROC

MC2 said:


> look at this dickhead:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495123869908316166


The guy is a complete entitled ass hole! Not the sharpest security either. Just grab him by the legs or arms and drag him out of there and have the fat guy sit on him until the cops come.

Do I think masking outdoors on ski lifts is silly, yes! But you follow the fucking rules of ownership or you stay home!


----------



## tirolski

witch hobble said:


> Most skiers and snowboarders in magazines, advertising, in the Olympics and the xgames have the general skin color that I do.


Yeah, but the faces of the Olympic athletes (when unmasked) show's diversity.
Kinda like kennel club shows.
I ❤️ all kinds of dogs and have favorite breeds.


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> look at this dickhead:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495123869908316166


Dang boarder.


----------



## sibhusky

tirolski said:


> Whitefish, being near Glacier Park-Flathead Lake, would still busy in the “off season”, summer, I would imagine.


The off season is spring and fall. Summer is WAY WAY WAY more crowded by far than winter.


----------



## tirolski

sibhusky said:


> The off season is spring and fall. Summer is WAY WAY WAY more crowded by far than winter.


Yup.
When we went to Montana to visit relatives living on the rez,
folks would say, there's 2 seasons, Winter and Relatives seasons.

Only ever been there in June, July or August.
Folks sat around the campfire by the pond wearing winter coats on the 4th of July one time when we were there at pow wow time.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

MC2 said:


> look at this dickhead:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495123869908316166


Rules like wearing a face mask on an outdoor lift makes all rules look ridiculous because it's following neither science nor common sense. This dumb ass rule has the completely opposite effect of its intent.
I didn't bother to play this video. I have an idea what happens.


----------



## snoloco

D.B. Cooper said:


> Rules like wearing a face mask on an outdoor lift makes all rules look ridiculous because it's following neither science nor common sense. This dumb ass rule has the completely opposite effect of its intent.
> I didn't bother to play this video. I have an idea what happens.


That particular incident happened at Blue Mountain, in Ontario. I believe there is a government mandate requiring masks at ski resorts, even outdoors. In this particular case, I think it was a mistake to escalate it the way security did. If they just let him go, none of this would've happened.


----------



## Campgottagopee

The right thing to have done was for the asshat to stay home.


----------



## Andy_ROC

snoloco said:


> That particular incident happened at Blue Mountain, in Ontario. I believe there is a government mandate requiring masks at ski resorts, even outdoors. In this particular case, I think it was a mistake to escalate it the way security did. If they just let him go, none of this would've happened.


The guy knew the rules before he went to the mountain. If he couldn't conform to the rules then he should have stayed home--- then zero chance for any incident let alone escalation. The fact that both you and I think masking, especially outdoor masking is silly at this point, is totally irrelevant--- you follow the rules or don't go. The entitled ass hole inconvenienced potentially a hundred or more people stuck on the lift and waiting in line and he didn't care--- another great example of selfish conduct.

Finally, yes there were far better ways to handle this by the mountain/security. Don't run the lift until he complies or removes himself from the line. Pull his pass etc--- then he's done and with less confrontation.


----------



## snoloco

So you're going for the "If only he complied" argument. Well there comes a point where enforcing compliance is more disruptive than just letting it slide. The least disruptive thing to do in this scenario would be to do nothing. Then no one is stuck on the lift or in line, and security doesn't have to tackle him. It's the same reason that police sometimes call off pursuits.


----------



## MarzNC

Real mix when it comes to masking indoors in the Berkshires and in Queensbury, NY. Catamount has no signs about masking, and very few people are masked. Berkshire East has signs about masking indoors and people were doing that in the morning. But by lunch time probably only 50% were masking. In the afternoon, that was down under 20%, perhaps only 5%. No signs on doors about masking at West Mountain. In the outlets in Queensbury, only a few stores requiring masking. In particular LL Bean. No masks anywhere else we went in that little mall or the one next to it.


----------



## snoloco

Killington is around 20% still masked in the lodges. Same for guests and staff. I'm glad they allowed employees to go unmasked as soon as they allowed it for guests. They also added these signs at the gondolas.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> So you're going for the "If only he complied" argument.


I was going for if only he wasn't an asshole argument. 
Nobody disagrees that the mandate is/was stupid. The issue, as I see it, is the only ones with something to lose are the business owners. They're the ones who have to enforce dumb mandates and if they don't face penalty. Now that's stupid.


----------



## Scrundy

Move on ladies


----------



## tirolski

Isn’t it too early for popcorn?


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> Then no one is stuck on the lift or in line, and security doesn't have to tackle him. It's the same reason that police sometimes call off pursuits.


Police call off pursuits when there is a danger to the public, not “inconvenience” to the public. People having to sit in line or on a chair while daddy throws his tantrum is a false equivalence.


----------



## MC2

Yeah, you really have to watch the video to see what a whining baby the guy turns into.

He knew the rules before he got to the mountain. He just chose to be a huge baby about it after he arrived.

If people want to defend him acting like a crying toddler, then I’m going to assume that they support people acting like crying toddlers when they don’t get their way.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> Yeah, you really have to watch the video to see what a whining baby the guy turns into.


I was actually embarrassed for him -- what a sissy


----------



## Andy_ROC

MC2 said:


> Yeah, you really have to watch the video to see what a whining baby the guy turns into.
> 
> He knew the rules before he got to the mountain. He just chose to be a huge baby about it after he arrived.
> 
> If people want to defend him acting like a crying toddler, then I’m going to assume that they support people acting like crying toddlers when they don’t get their way.


That's how some adults act that when growing up their mommy told them they were special. Somehow this got interpreted as entitled.

I was taught and consequently taught my kids, it's OK to question but when your the guest the host sets the rules. If you don't like it don't go.


----------



## DHA

What a dope. This guy is clearly in the wrong. Not only is it *the law in Canada* to mask up while on the ski lift, *he is on private property, whose owner puts their business at risk if they allow mask-less people on the lift*. They could be *shut down*. 

The law in Canada is to mask up while on the lift. If you don't like it, stay home, and shut it up.

HEY ANTI VAXER AND MASKERS: Covid IS still dangerous to many many people. MAYBE not you, but there are still people in my local hospital dying of Covid. Mostly they are high risk patients who can't help it and non-vaccinated IDIOTS like yourself. I*f you are an anti-vaxxer/masker, you need to consider that you are putting others at risk*. *The virus will be using your sorry body to mutate and spread*. I don't want to hear you anymore. Get over it. Get vaccinated and shut your trap about masking up. Otherwise you may be that guy in the blue coat with the snowboard.


----------



## snoloco

I know, you guys are a bunch of conformists who will do whatever you're told. Anyone who attempts to push back against dumb covid rules is a "crying toddler". I mean that's what you've called me multiple times. I don't understand this mentality that when covid is involved, we must never question anything and give absolute power to neurotic public health officials. I reject that. Now there are better ways to handle it than this guy did, but I think if you don't push back at all, you'll never be allowed to live normally again.


----------



## Harvey

To me it's like "no shoes, no shirt, no service." Nobody really whines about that.

I defense of the security, probably not something they were expecting or used to.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> To me it's like "no shoes, no shirt, no service." Nobody really whines about that.


Exactly
It truly is that simple


----------



## snoloco

Harvey said:


> To me it's like "no shoes, no shirt, no service." Nobody really whines about that.


It's not though. Faces are not bare chests or bare feet.


----------



## snoloco

Another point is that this flows both ways. If you think the guy in the previous video is in the wrong, then so is this woman. My guess is you think she's a vigilante trying to protect her community.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> It's not though. Faces are not bare chests or bare feet.



Right. But it's a rule set by the host.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Right. But it's a rule set by the host.


Not sure why the lad can't grasp the concept


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> It's not though. Faces are not bare chests or bare feet.


Mouths and noses are actually much more gross and have much more potential to transmit disease than bare chests and bare feet…..just sayin.


----------



## Tjf1967

I think all women and men should take their shirts off and go into stores in protest of the mask policy!! That will show is


----------



## Harvey

Tjf1967 said:


> I think all women and men should take their shirts off and go into stores in protest of the mask policy!!


I half-heartedly support this idea.

Also I think flip flops should be banned.


----------



## snoloco

witch hobble said:


> Mouths and noses are actually much more gross and have much more potential to transmit disease than bare chests and bare feet…..just sayin.


My position has long been that if you don't wear a mask, then you should respect those who do, and if you do wear a mask, then you should respect those who don't. Shit like this makes that hard to do, because I have a certain level of resentment for those who pushed mandates and continue to do so.


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> I have a certain level of resentment for those who pushed mandates and continue to do so.


Your perceived grievance posts are well documented here.


----------



## witch hobble

Harvey said:


> Also I think flip flops should be banned.


Bruh


----------



## Face4Me

Tjf1967 said:


> I think all women and men should take their shirts off and go into stores in protest of the mask policy!! That will show is


Do we really want ALL women and men to go shirtless?


----------



## D.B. Cooper

DHA said:


> I*f you are an anti-vaxxer/masker, you need to consider that you are putting others at risk*.


If you are at risk, you should consider your activities. Your best way to stay safe is to protect yourself and not rely on others to protect you. I mean, you don't ski an out of bounds area if you don't have the knowledge or ability.
I don't say this lightly as I have many family and friends with compromised immune systems.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> To me it's like "no shoes, no shirt, no service."


“What’s that sign say?”


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> Another point is that this flows both ways. If you think the guy in the previous video is in the wrong, then so is this woman. My guess is you think she's a vigilante trying to protect her community.


I missed this one sno. Do you really think the two examples are equal? She seems to briefly heckle her elected official’s photo op. Didn’t seem too disruptive to the public.

Also, fyi EVERYONE ELSE seems to be trying to leave politics out of this as best as we can, out of respect to Harv’s sensitivities, after he was putting people in the penalty box. Yet you continue ranting about mandates and blue states. Maybe you should read the room?


----------



## JTG

snoloco said:


> My position has long been that if you don't wear a mask, then you should respect those who do….


Reasonable.

Begs the question….how was the guy in that video respecting all the other mask wearing skiers (stupid or not, rules are rules) who were following the established rules and trying to enjoy their ski day, as best they could given the circumstances? Your philosophy stated above would seem to indicate that the dude should have masked up, as per the rules he knew before he bought his ticket, and respected both the workers and other skiers on the hill, no? Yet, you seem to argue that the guy was in the right.

Unless you are suggesting that everyone else should have respected him and ignored the rules (stupid or not) that were in place?


----------



## Warp daddy

snoloco said:


> It's not though. Faces are not bare chests or bare feet.


Grow up ,it is NOT about you . Public Health is not about your "privileged " needs .


----------



## Brownski

People only respect the rules they respect. That’s how it’s always been and how it will always be.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> To me it's like "no shoes, no shirt, no service." Nobody really whines about that.


No shirt, no shoes, who cares?
Sorry We’re Open

Ronzo came to Oxford from The Jackson Hole...
They made tasty turkey sammiches & had a BYOB policy if ya wanted to.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I was actually embarrassed for him --


Dang boarders getting on and/or off lifts.
Bunch of wet butts.
Their farts can spread the virus.
Better mandate N95 Depends.
Patent it.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

T-shirts! 5 for a dollar! Or 1 for 5 dollars! 



🤣


----------



## Andy_ROC

My condolences to the man at Blue Mountain, but life's hard. It's even harder when you act stupidly


----------



## snoloco

witch hobble said:


> I missed this one sno. Do you really think the two examples are equal? She seems to briefly heckle her elected official’s photo op. Didn’t seem too disruptive to the public.


It goes back to my previous statement about how respect goes both ways. You don't seem to understand that. It's not enough for you to simply wear a mask. You want to mandate it for everyone.



witch hobble said:


> Also, fyi EVERYONE ELSE seems to be trying to leave politics out of this as best as we can, out of respect to Harv’s sensitivities, after he was putting people in the penalty box. Yet you continue ranting about mandates and blue states. Maybe you should read the room?


Blue states are the ones either with or threatening unnecessary and damaging covid mandates, while red states have moved on. I'm trying to point out the differences, and show that normalcy is possible. Not new normal, or normal*, but normal, as in the same way we lived in 2019.



Warp daddy said:


> Grow up ,it is NOT about you . Public Health is not about your "privileged " needs .


You want to force others to fundamentally change how they live to conform to your risk tolerance, so I wouldn't point fingers. It's not all about you.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> You want to force others to fundamentally change how they live to conform to your risk tolerance, so I wouldn't point fingers. It's not all about you.


Nah, baud. Warp ain't scared but you know that.


----------



## Warp daddy

snoloco said:


> It goes back to my previous statement about how respect goes both ways. You don't seem to understand that. It's not enough for you to simply wear a mask. You want to mandate it for everyone.
> 
> 
> Blue states are the ones either with or threatening unnecessary and damaging covid mandates, while red states have moved on. I'm trying to point out the differences, and show that normalcy is possible. Not new normal, or normal*, but normal, as in the same way we lived in 2019.
> 
> 
> You want to force others to fundamentally change how they live to conform to your risk tolerance, so I wouldn't point fingers. It's not all about you.


No I would highly recommend that YOU realize that the world neither revolves around your narrow points of view and frankly immature persona. 

Frankly you seem oblivious to the fact that you are only broadcasting both of those characteristics every time you opine on trivialities that seem to dominate your very very small world as if they mattered to others. .☑️


----------



## Brownski

you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar


----------



## Warp daddy

B Ski : There are no participation trophies in Life.

Truth matters ,facts matter. I am not running for office .Life is tough and Public Health is a serious concern with little place for pedantic nonsense or an entitled sense of privilege. 
Sorry


----------



## Brownski

Warp daddy said:


> B Ski : There are no participation trophies in Life.
> 
> Truth matters ,facts matter. I am not running for office .Life is tough and Public Health is a serious concern with little place for pedantic nonsense .


I commend you for resisting the urge to capitalize


----------



## Warp daddy

The message remains the same, dude .


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> You want to mandate it for everyone.



I didn't hear witchy say this. Did I miss it?



snoloco said:


> Blue states are the ones either with or threatening unnecessary and damaging covid mandates, while red states have moved on.



On the face of it this is somewhat political, so cut it out. Also I feel it's not true. I'll admit I'm barely paying attention.



snoloco said:


> It's not all about you.



Before the vaccine, I agreed with Warp. Now I think this is more legit. With a vaccine, it is MORE about personal choice, but maybe not completely. IMO if you can't get vaxxed, it's on you now to stay out of circulation. You can say sno is whining, but there are emotional/mental costs to rules too. 

Flame away.


----------



## tirolski

_Isn’t it too early for popcorn?_

Dang popcorn gonna burn.
It’s been on all day.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> . IMO if you can't get vaxxed, it's on you now to stay out of circulation..


Wouldn’t it be better if we took some more steps to eradicate the virus (more mandates? masking during appropriate times - not now) so that immunocompromised people (or people with children under 5) could participate in society?


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> IMO if you can't get vaxxed, it's on you now to stay out of circulation.


Do ya think mRNA vaccination stop the spread of SARS-CoV-2?


----------



## Sbob

Brownski said:


> you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar


Although fruit flies like Balsamic 😁


----------



## Harvey

MC2 said:


> Wouldn’t it be better if we took some more steps to eradicate the virus (more mandates? masking during appropriate times - not now) so that immunocompromised people (or people with children under 5) could participate in society?



I did hedge it (ie "more about choice, but not completely"). Who knows what will happen.

IMO, the under 5 thing will get resolved soon, after more trials on dosing. The issue will continue to be choice. Right now only 30% of kids 5-12 are vaxxed. That's a choice.

The fewer people that are excluded, (from the vax) the harder it is to justify changes that impact the whole. I don't claim to have this all figured out. But if an effective and widely available vax doesn't get us back to normal, what will? If the vax stops working on the next variant, maybe we go back to stricter rules.

What would you do? Sure I'd like to eradicate the virus. Is that realistic?


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> Wouldn’t it be better if we took some more steps to eradicate the virus (more mandates? masking during appropriate times - not now) so that immunocompromised people (or people with children under 5) could participate in society?


This virus will never be eradicated, and everyone will be exposed. That's been clear for well over a year now. The fact that you think it's still possible really hurts your credibility. In fact, it's people like you that are the reason we're still in this never-ending cycle of futility. We have vaccines and we have treatments. Kids under 5 are at very low risk, in-fact lower than vaccinated people your age.


----------



## MarzNC

Let me know if this is paywalled.

February 21, 2022








						Got a Covid Booster? You Probably Won’t Need Another for a Long Time
					

A flurry of new studies suggests that several parts of the immune system can mount a sustained, potent response to any coronavirus variant.




					www.nytimes.com
				



_Got a Covid Booster? You Probably Won’t Need Another for a Long Time_​_A flurry of new studies suggest that several parts of the immune system can mount a sustained, potent response to any coronavirus variant._


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> What would you do? Sure I'd like to eradicate the virus. Is that realistic?


I think where we’re at is fine. The Boston Wastewater levels are below the levels of last July. I’m fine with getting rid of masks when the spread is this low. I took the baby into a restaurant the other day & didn’t think anything of it.

Is it realistic to talk about eradicating the virus? I don’t know. Did people think it was realistic to eradicate smallpox?

Optimistically, I think the medical community will probably find a way to deal with COVID, seasonal flu, and even cancer sometime in my lifetime. Will that completely eradicate those diseases? I don’t know.

Part of the reason I hate snolocos post isn’t just that he whines. It’s that he just always seems to assume the worst (“we’ll never eradicate it”, “we’ll have to wear masks every winter”, etc.).

It’s the combination of pessimism, selfishness, know-it-all-ism, and childishness that’s just the complete opposite of how I try to act (except when I actually do know it all 🤣). He really does seem like one of the kids that goes through Willy Wonka’s factory and doesn’t learn shit.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Let me know if this is paywalled.


For some reason this one from the day before ain’t paywalled...yet.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/20/health/covid-cdc-data.html


----------



## Tjf1967

snoloco said:


> This virus will never be eradicated, and everyone will be exposed. That's been clear for well over a year now. The fact that you think it's still possible really hurts your credibility. In fact, it's people like you that are the reason we're still in this never-ending cycle of futility. We have vaccines and we have treatments. Kids under 5 are at very low risk, in-fact lower than vaccinated people your age.


I live in NY. If they say the mask is mandated I put it on. Is they say it isn't then I'll wear it when I want to. Rules are rules. If you don't like them run for office and change them.


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> Optimistically, I think the medical community will probably find a way to deal with COVID, seasonal flu, and even cancer sometime in my lifetime. Will that completely eradicate those diseases? I don’t know.


What about "dealing” with obesity, diabetes, Alzheimers, Lyme’s, addictions, homelessness &/or mental health issues to name a few?


----------



## MC2

tirolski said:


> What about "dealing” with obesity, diabetes, Alzheimers, Lyme’s, addictions, homelessness &/or mental health issues to name a few?


Yeah, I think they’ll find cures/vaccines/stem cell treatments/lifestyle changes that can lead to eradication/reduction for all of those things, too (if people want the cures/vaccines/etc.).

Homelessness is obviously a lot more complicated. I say build more public housing. But I’m just one guy.


----------



## snoloco

Only one virus has ever been completely eradicated. In order to eradicate a virus, I think it needs to meet the following criteria:


Symptoms easily identifiable.
Doesn't spread asymptomatically.
Vaccine provides sterilizing immunity.
Covid is none of those things. It's not easily identifiable, since symptoms are often the same as colds. It does spread asymptomatically, or before one has symptoms. The vaccines, while excellent at preventing severe illness, do not provide sterilizing immunity. So it's not going anywhere, but is nowhere near as deadly as it was in March 2020. 



Tjf1967 said:


> I live in NY. If they say the mask is mandated I put it on. Is they say it isn't then I'll wear it when I want to. Rules are rules. If you don't like them run for office and change them.


I have no plans to run for office. I have called my representatives to voice my displeasure with how the state has handled covid in the last several months, and when it came to a vote to end the mask mandate in schools, they voted the way I wanted. Maybe I had something to do with that. Maybe I didn't. I'd like to think that I did. You have to take action and push back on these mandates, even when not currently in effect if you don't want them reinstated every winter. The other option that I'm exploring is moving out of state to a place that respects basic individual rights and respects my ability to make my own decisions relating to my personal health.


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> lifestyle changes


Total non-starter. Didn't work for covid, and I'm not going to accept it for anything else.


----------



## Warp daddy

snoloco said:


> Only one virus has ever been completely eradicated. In order to eradicate a virus, I think it needs to meet the following criteria:
> 
> 
> Symptoms easily identifiable.
> Doesn't spread asymptomatically.
> Vaccine provides sterilizing immunity.
> Covid is none of those things. It's not easily identifiable, since symptoms are often the same as colds. It does spread asymptomatically, or before one has symptoms. The vaccines, while excellent at preventing severe illness, do not provide sterilizing immunity. So it's not going anywhere, but is nowhere near as deadly as it was in March 2020.
> 
> 
> I have no plans to run for office. I have called my representatives to voice my displeasure with how the state has handled covid in the last several months, and when it came to a vote to end the mask mandate in schools, they voted the way I wanted. Maybe I had something to do with that. Maybe I didn't. I'd like to think that I did. You have to take action and push back on these mandates, even when not currently in effect if you don't want them reinstated every winter. The other option that I'm exploring is moving out of state to a place that respects basic individual rights and respects my ability to make my own decisions relating to my personal health.


Great , try Mars !😏


----------



## Scrundy

Vax does not work never has never will…nor do masks, at least masks that 99% of us wear.

I was at a party in a basement a month ago, turns out it was a super spreader event. 

10 people that I know of got covid could be more, of the 10 about half were fully vaccinated. 

Myself not vaxed my wife fully vaxed all had same symptoms to a tee. My kid who’s 10 breezed threw it, we all tested positive. 

Me my wife and brother in-laws family and others some fully vaxed all tested positive and had the same symptoms as us unvaxed and the kids breezed threw it.

I can say whatever variant we had was nasty and we all still feel the affects, we were all bed ridden for a week . Imho the only way this is going away is herd immunity, kinda glad I got it in a way. But missed 2 weeks of skiing during the best conditions of this season. 

Still not scared nor vaxed nor any plan to get vaxed. Wife is now questioning the vax and the nurse whom got it also is now questioning the vaccine and she’s…. Well a huge lefty pushing the vax like a good sheep. She spent months pumping arms full of the vaccine as a nurse… all day… vaccine shots… for months. Without questioning any of it , just doing what she was told to do by lord Fauci. 

Wife is hearing that a lot at work, she works in medical field. Her employer also now does not require employees to get the 3rd booster….. that says something. 

If you’re in a risk group by all means take precautions. The new normal changes threw out life, don’t get stuck in a rut. 

Time to move on


----------



## Warp daddy

Scrundy said:


> Vax does not work never has never will…nor do masks, at least masks that 99% of us wear.
> 
> I was at a party in a basement a month ago, turns out it was a super spreader event.
> 
> 10 people that I know of got covid could be more, of the 10 about half were fully vaccinated.
> 
> Myself not vaxed my wife fully vaxed all had same symptoms to a tee. My kid who’s 10 breezed threw it, we all tested positive.
> 
> Me my wife and brother in-laws family and others some fully vaxed all tested positive and had the same symptoms as us unvaxed and the kids breezed threw it.
> 
> I can say whatever variant we had was nasty and we all still feel the affects, we were all bed ridden for a week . Imho the only way this is going away is herd immunity, kinda glad I got it in a way. But missed 2 weeks of skiing during the best conditions of this season.
> 
> Still not scared nor vaxed nor any plan to get vaxed. Wife is now questioning the vax and the nurse whom got it also is now questioning the vaccine and she’s…. Well a huge lefty pushing the vax like a good sheep. She spent months pumping arms full of the vaccine as a nurse… all day… vaccine shots… for months. Without questioning any of it , just doing what she was told to do by lord Fauci.
> 
> Wife is hearing that a lot at work, she works in medical field. Her employer also now does not require employees to get the 3rd booster….. that says something.
> 
> If you’re in a risk group by all means take precautions. The new normal changes threw out life, don’t get stuck in a rut.
> 
> Time to move on


🙄


----------



## witch hobble

Harvey said:


> I didn't hear witchy say this. Did I miss it?


Of course I didn’t say that, the kid doesn’t like being called on his bullshit so he tries the straw man route, as though we haven’t seen this method deployed here on the regional ski forum a million fucking times. Tiresome.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> Total non-starter. Didn't work for covid, and I'm not going to accept it for anything else.


“People who are struggling with obesity shouldn’t bother trying to exercise”

- snoloco


----------



## snoloco

I'm referring to society-wide regressive changes. If you want to ban gatherings, close businesses and schools, restrict travel, or require masks permanently to stop respiratory viruses, then you can count me out. I'll take my chances with the virus.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> I'm referring to society-wide regressive changes. If you want to ban gatherings, close businesses and schools, restrict travel, or require masks permanently to stop respiratory viruses, then you can count me out. I'll take my chances with the virus.



Where are you seeing this? I'm certainly not seeing it "society wide."

I guess the border is restricted.


----------



## snoloco

Shit like this is why I'm trying to move out. There is no emergency. This is insanity.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/n...-covid-regulations/ar-AAUbnvn?ocid=entnewsntp


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> Where are you seeing this? I'm certainly not seeing it "society wide."


He’s just freaking out over a future that he is imagining in his head. 

He seems incapable of just relaxing and enjoying his life. He has to come up with a bunch of scenarios that *might* happen and freak out about them. I’m no psychologist, but it seems like a kind of anxiety to me.


----------



## Campgottagopee

The sky is falling....
Relax Sno


----------



## Campgottagopee

Scrundy said:


> Vax does not work never has never will…nor do masks, at least masks that 99% of us wear.
> 
> I was at a party in a basement a month ago, turns out it was a super spreader event.
> 
> 10 people that I know of got covid could be more, of the 10 about half were fully vaccinated.
> 
> Myself not vaxed my wife fully vaxed all had same symptoms to a tee. My kid who’s 10 breezed threw it, we all tested positive.
> 
> Me my wife and brother in-laws family and others some fully vaxed all tested positive and had the same symptoms as us unvaxed and the kids breezed threw it.
> 
> I can say whatever variant we had was nasty and we all still feel the affects, we were all bed ridden for a week . Imho the only way this is going away is herd immunity, kinda glad I got it in a way. But missed 2 weeks of skiing during the best conditions of this season.
> 
> Still not scared nor vaxed nor any plan to get vaxed. Wife is now questioning the vax and the nurse whom got it also is now questioning the vaccine and she’s…. Well a huge lefty pushing the vax like a good sheep. She spent months pumping arms full of the vaccine as a nurse… all day… vaccine shots… for months. Without questioning any of it , just doing what she was told to do by lord Fauci.
> 
> Wife is hearing that a lot at work, she works in medical field. Her employer also now does not require employees to get the 3rd booster….. that says something.
> 
> If you’re in a risk group by all means take precautions. The new normal changes threw out life, don’t get stuck in a rut.
> 
> Time to move on


Imo, for whatever that's worth, if nobody ended up hospitalized then the vax worked. As I understand it the vax won't prevent you from getting COVID, rather help you recover at home and not jam up hospital beds. It's like seatbelts, they don't prevent car accidents but greatly increase your chance of surviving a crash.
I say this as someone who had COVID before the vax was even available. I didn't even know I had it. Good buddy of mine had it the same time I did and he was in the hospital for 11 days. 7 of those days fighting for his life. 
It's so bizarre how this virus effects everyone differently.


----------



## Tjf1967

My dad is 80 with normal age related problems. He got COVID at the Dr. Pumped him with piadialite and zinc. Recovered in three days. Vaxxed and boosted. I think I got it but never tested I was caring for him. Very mild. Vaxxed and boosted. I believe 100% things well well because we followed protocol.


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> I’m no psychologist, but it seems like a kind of anxiety to me.


Maybe it is. Knowing that any time cases rise, we are going to be blamed for it, and be slapped with pointless and punitive rules that do nothing to slow the spread, that has a way of being really damaging. Reason for attempting to move is to get to a state where that isn't the mentality, where I can relax and enjoy life.


----------



## jasonwx

Happiness is a state of mind
The state where you live doesn’t matter


----------



## ScottySkis

snoloco said:


> Maybe it is. Knowing that any time cases rise, we are going to be blamed for it, and be slapped with pointless and punitive rules that do nothing to slow the spread, that has a way of being really damaging. Reason for attempting to move is to get to a state where that isn't the mentality, where I can relax and enjoy life.


Hang with Mary Jane


----------



## Warp daddy

jasonwx said:


> Happiness is a state of mind
> The state where you live doesn’t matter


Absolutely on target ! Attitude is everything . Frankly thats why an adapt and deal strategy with life is powerful . Focusing primarily on negativity is neither good for one's mental or physical wellbeing .


----------



## jasonwx

snoloco said:


> Maybe it is. Knowing that any time cases rise, we are going to be blamed for it, and be slapped with pointless and punitive rules that do nothing to slow the spread, that has a way of being really damaging. Reason for attempting to move is to get to a state where that isn't the mentality, where I can relax and enjoy life.


Before covid
NY has very few restriction
Aside from gun laws ( subject for another day)
You can worship freely
Love and marry whom ever you want
Drink and smoke what ever you want
Etc. 
just remember covid isn’t forever


----------



## Warp daddy

jasonwx said:


> Before covid
> NY has very few restriction
> Aside from gun laws ( subject for another day)
> You can worship freely
> Love and marry whom ever you want
> Drink and smoke what ever you want
> Etc.
> just remember covid isn’t forever


Perspective !


----------



## witch hobble

jasonwx said:


> Happiness is a state of mind
> The state where you live doesn’t matter


There is lots to be anxious about over here in the Libertarian paradise of New Hampshire too:

Kindergarten is not compulsory for school districts to provide…..so lots of people never learn the very basic “how to get along with others” lessons that help lay the groundwork for a civil society.

Vehicles do not need to be insured to be out on the road, so you might have to try to sue the meth head who backs their Kia Rio into you in the Walmart parking lot instead of just letting insurance companies battle it out.

The Executive Council actually controls much of the function of the executive branch and can veto legislation or water down proclamations put forth by the Governor if they see fit (since sno seems enamored by Sununu).

I could go on…..but I won’t.


----------



## Brownski

Sno, hang in there. I know it seems like it’s gonna go on forever but it won’t. Don’t dwell on the crappy parts


----------



## Campgottagopee

Coach says is time
It's time








						Jim Boeheim on Syracuse, Carrier Dome mask policy: ‘Hopefully we can be like the rest of the country and come in here without masks’
					

After beating Georgia Tech in overtime on Monday night, Jim Boeheim took the opportunity to opine on Syracuse’s mask policy.




					www.nunesmagician.com


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Coach says is time
> It's time


Yeah, but most times Boeheim calls time something bad happens on the very next “play".


----------



## Andy_ROC

snoloco said:


> Maybe it is. Knowing that any time cases rise, we are going to be blamed for it, and be slapped with pointless and punitive rules that do nothing to slow the spread, that has a way of being really damaging. Reason for attempting to move is to get to a state where that isn't the mentality, where I can relax and enjoy life.


Pointless and punitive rules? Do you even know the definition of "punitive?" Despite whomever is feeding you false propaganda, the Doctors running/advising our public heath officials are NOT looking to be punitive. NY masking came back after holiday last year because of surging hospitalizations! When hospitals get full, we're all at risk... even you! 

I know you love to point out how great FL and certain states have dealt with Covid. Well here's a few points and data for you:

1. Despite having almost equal populations, almost twice as many people have died of covid in FL from ~July 2020 to current as have in NY. Covid deaths in NY were front loaded because NYC was the first major battleground and it was before we knew better. Also lets not forget that most of NY deaths came from the nations most densely populated region, NYC. The numbers aren't any better for the same period when you look at Az or Tx for example. 

2. Covid doesn't thrive outdoors especially when exposed to UV. FL gets plenty UV year round while the North East does not-- so FL got "lucky."

3. Human immune systems are boosted when exposed to vitamin D. The sun provides plenty of that year round in FL but not in the North East.-- again FL got "lucky."

(Source: worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)








See below--- even with NYC/NJ metro surge from the initial days of the pandemic, look what states have had more deaths per 1M. If we started the data at July 2020 past the initial surge then NY/NJ wouldn't even be in the top 20! 




Here's a comparison of the nations two least populated states. The state that didn't adopt (as you call them) pointless measures had more than 3x as many deaths than VT. 



*So in summery the data doesn't support your many times claimed of "pointless." *

A sincere suggestion --- maybe you should start with getting away from whatever is making you fearful and paranoid. I bet it's certain Facebook groups, Podcasts, Twitter feeds and AM radio etc--- whatever those are that are inflaming your anger by spreading purposely divisive and false propaganda, Just remember these guys are laughing all the way to the bank by monetizing tribal division and hate.

The great news is that the vax, boosters and past infections are helping dramatically. The virus variant has continued to evolve into far less severe and fewer hospitalizations. Denmark has dropped all covid protocols so we should keep an eye on what's going on there. In the meantime just get away and relax a bit and stop being concerned about what might happen and enjoy the moment.


----------



## Warp daddy

Andy_ROC said:


> Pointless and punitive rules? Do you even know the definition of "punitive?" Despite whomever is feeding you false propaganda, the Doctors running/advising our public heath officials are NOT looking to be punitive. NY masking came back after holiday last year because of surging hospitalizations! When hospitals get full, we're all at risk... even you!
> 
> I know you love to point out how great FL and certain states have dealt with Covid. Well here's a few points and data for you:
> 
> 1. Despite having almost equal populations, almost twice as many people have died of covid in FL from ~July 2020 to current as have in NY. Covid deaths in NY were front loaded because NYC was the first major battleground and it was before we knew better. Also lets not forget that most of NY deaths came from the nations most densely populated region, NYC. The numbers aren't any better for the same period when you look at Az or Tx for example.
> 
> 2. Covid doesn't thrive outdoors especially when exposed to UV. FL gets plenty UV year round while the North East does not-- so FL got "lucky."
> 
> 3. Human immune systems are boosted when exposed to vitamin D. The sun provides plenty of that year round in FL but not in the North East.-- again FL got "lucky."
> 
> (Source: worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)
> 
> View attachment 13215
> View attachment 13216
> 
> See below--- even with NYC/NJ metro surge from the initial days of the pandemic, look what states have had more deaths per 1M. If we started the data at July 2020 past the initial surge then NY/NJ wouldn't even be in the top 20!
> 
> View attachment 13217
> Here's a comparison of the nations two least populated states. The state that didn't adopt (as you call them) pointless measures had more than 3x as many deaths than VT. View attachment 13219
> 
> *So in summery the data doesn't support your many times claimed of "pointless." *
> 
> A sincere suggestion --- maybe you should start with getting away from whatever is making you fearful and paranoid. I bet it's certain Facebook groups, Podcasts, Twitter feeds and AM radio etc--- whatever those are that are inflaming your anger by spreading purposely divisive and false propaganda, Just remember these guys are laughing all the way to the bank by monetizing tribal division and hate.
> 
> The great news is that the vax, boosters and past infections are helping dramatically. The virus variant has continued to evolve into far less severe and fewer hospitalizations. Denmark has dropped all covid protocols so we should keep an eye on what's going on there. In the meantime just get away and relax a bit and stop being concerned about what might happen and enjoy the moment.


Excellent Andy 👌💯


----------



## trackbiker

Sno sounds a lot like my son at his age....A Rebel Without a Cause. If Covid had never happened he would have found something (or several things) to bitch about. He needs to find out what he's really mad about. But that would likely take years of therapy and he already knows everything.
Sno, I agree that you should be able to, *and are able to*, protest things you don't agree with. But there is a right way to go about it and ways to "make friends and influence people". I'm glad you called your representatives. There are also ways not go about it. The asshat at Blue Mt. may have learned that because no one came to his aid but rather came to help the security guys.
Smoking is not allowed in almost every building everywhere. Should someone who disagrees just be able to light up in the lodge because it's their right to kill themselves if they want to and it's an inconvenience to have to go outside in minus 10 degree weather?. Do you like getting into a gondola that someone just enjoyed a joint in? Having a rule against it is an inconvenience to them enjoying their day. "F those rules. It's an inconvenience to me."


----------



## tirolski

Friends had an orange toilet seat that said, “Go Orange”.
Some folks in Rochester are testing a more useful one.








						High-tech toilet seats help monitor heart health in Brighton seniors
					

BRIGHTON, N.Y. (WROC) — February marks American Heart Month. In honor of the occasion, the folks at Jewish Senior Life are partnering with a local home health monitoring company — Casana — to test …




					www.rochesterfirst.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

trackbiker said:


> Do you like getting into a gondola that someone just enjoyed a joint in?


YES!


----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> View attachment 13215
> View attachment 13216



I'd like to see the numbers for hospitalization rate and death rate, by state, starting like a month after the vax was available.

If those rates do or don't show a difference ... that's what I really want to see.


----------



## G.ski

I object to the thread title.

None of any of this is normal.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> I'd like to see the numbers for hospitalization rate and death rate, by state, starting like a month after the vax was available.
> 
> If those rates do or don't show a difference ... that's what I really want to see.


Every state is on the NYT website (gotta pay attention to the numbers on the y axis, though)
Florida:






New York:


----------



## Harvey

I'd rather see it in a chart with death and hospitalization RATE shown by state. I can't figure that ^^ $hit out out.


----------



## Harvey

G.ski said:


> I object to the thread title.


Unfortunately if you don't object to the thread title in the first 250 pages, nothing can be done to change it!  

New normal just means that somethings changed, which is kind of indisputable.


----------



## G.ski

Harvey said:


> New normal just means that somethings changed, which is kind of indisputable.


lol thanks Harvey. New, old or different it's not normal.

And while I'm sure this won't be popular with many I'm beginning to like Snoloco; guy sticks to his guns and isn't afraid to speak his mind.


----------



## Harvey

IMO disruption is kind of the rule in life.

Slowly but Shirley I will bring you all over to the dark side, the snoloco side!

Sno knows a lot, and brings a solid signal-to-noise ratio over the long haul.

Personally I think many of us agree with the sentiment. Presentation is like penmanship, it improves with age.


----------



## trackbiker

Campgottagopee said:


> YES!


Sno would make a law that would infringe your rights!


----------



## Andy_ROC

G.ski said:


> lol thanks Harvey. New, old or different it's not normal.
> 
> And while I'm sure this won't be popular with many I'm beginning to like Snoloco; guy sticks to his guns and isn't afraid to speak his mind.


Even when he's wrong about the data? He keeps saying that states with stricter covid rules didn't fare any better than very lax states. The data say's otherwise and that he's wrong by a LOT! Can't respect people that aren't willing to modify their opinions in light of data and information.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Personally I think many of us agree with the sentiment.


Now, I definitely do. What was done early on was 100% needed, imo. I hope we never have to do it again. I feel with herd immunity and vax we won't have to. 

I feel it's definitely time to move forward and rid ourselves of mandates regarding covid. I feel for kids in schools. So many of them missed out on too much, it has to have lasting effects on them. This is easy for me to say as I don't have kids, but, imo, schools need to go back to being about education and not about health care. Health care should be left up to the parents, as most things should be.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I'd rather see it in a chart with death and hospitalization RATE shown. I can't figure that ^^ $hit out out.


Just one county, Onondaga, hospitalizations.




More stuff here.
Been watching it a bit.




__





COVID-19 Data and Reports – Onondaga County COVID-19 Info







covid19.ongov.net


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Now, I definitely do. What was done early on was 100% needed, imo. I hope we never have to do it again. I feel with herd immunity and vax we won't have to.


I'm cool with adding "now" at the end of my sentence.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> Now, I definitely do. What was done early on was 100% needed, imo. I hope we never have to do it again. I feel with herd immunity and vax we won't have to.
> 
> I feel it's definitely time to move forward and rid ourselves of mandates regarding covid. I feel for kids in schools. So many of them missed out on too much, it has to have lasting effects on them. This is easy for me to say as I don't have kids, but, imo, schools need to go back to being about education and not about health care. Health care should be left up to the parents, as most things should be.


I firmly believe kids, especially the younger grades, are far more resilient and adaptable than adults give them credit. 

I've heard a few friends with young kids, one with 4 kids ages 5-12 and he said his kids haven't really complained about masking nor has he heard much from their friends. Seems a lot of the hand wringing often comes from parents, especially those whipped into a tizzy by people they follow in media. 

Yeah and there's a whole crap ton of other things that shouldn't be taught in schools. They should focus on the reading writing and arithmetic and reduce the nonsensical noise level of special interest topics. But we can't get into that here.


----------



## tirolski

Andy_ROC said:


> Yeah and there's a whole crap ton of other things that shouldn't be taught in schools. They should focus on the reading writing and arithmetic and reduce the nonsensical noise level of special interest topics. But we can't get into that here.


Yup.
They should teach bullshitology too. i.e. How to detect bullshit.
Or maybe that’s better left for home skooling.


----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> I firmly believe kids, especially the younger grades, are far more resilient and adaptable than adults give them credit.


I have a 15 yo. Way harder for her than for me or my wife. I'd totally risk covid again at this point, to keep her in school.


----------



## trackbiker

Campgottagopee said:


> Now, I definitely do. What was done early on was 100% needed, imo. I hope we never have to do it again. I feel with herd immunity and vax we won't have to.
> 
> I feel it's definitely time to move forward and rid ourselves of mandates regarding covid. I feel for kids in schools. So many of them missed out on too much, it has to have lasting effects on them. This is easy for me to say as I don't have kids, but, imo, schools need to go back to being about education and not about health care. Health care should be left up to the parents, as most things should be.


I agree. While I followed all of the mandates before the vaccines were available, I only wear a mask now if it is requested. At this point if you are vaxed and get Covid you are much less likely to be hospitalized and even less likely to die. The latest mask mandates were to keep hospitals and hospital staff from being over whelmed. Not to infringe on your rights. The majority of those dying are the unvaxed. It's just natural selection at work. If you have a comorbidity you have to personally be more careful and wear an N95 mask if you are worried about Covid. Lots of people with other diseases have to avoid certain things to avoid getting sick or dying. At this point insurance companies should start raising rates for the unvaxed. Because otherwise we are all going to have to pay for their ignorance.


----------



## MarzNC

G.ski said:


> I object to the thread title.
> 
> None of any of this is normal.


The world changed in late 2019 even though we didn't know it at the time. By mid-2020 the pandemic was in full swing on all continents. Going to take another year or two before the pandemic will be declared over on a global basis.

The "new normal" will include COVID-19 as one of many other contagious diseases that humans have had to adapt to in the last few millennia. Polio, measles, HIV and other contagious diseases are all still around. But there aren't national level headlines any more.

Oct 2012








						Wiping Out Polio: How The U.S. Snuffed Out A Killer
					

During the early 20th century, polio killed thousands of American children each summer and paralyzed many more. Now, as the world fights to eradicate the virus globally, we look back at the development of the polio vaccine and its successful deployment around the world.




					www.npr.org
				



_" . . .
Sixty years ago, polio was one of the most feared diseases in the U.S.

As the weather warmed up each year, panic over polio intensified. Late summer was dubbed "polio season." Public swimming pools were shut down. Movie theaters urged patrons not to sit too close together to avoid spreading the disease. Insurance companies started selling polio insurance for newborns.

The fear was well grounded. By the 1950s, polio had become one of the most serious communicable diseases among children in the United States.

In 1952 alone, nearly 60,000 children were infected with the virus; thousands were paralyzed, and more than 3,000 died. Hospitals set up special units with iron lung machines to keep polio victims alive. Rich kids as well as poor were left paralyzed.

Then in 1955, the U.S. began widespread vaccinations. By 1979, the virus had been completely eliminated across the country.
. . ."_


----------



## G.ski

Andy_ROC said:


> Even when he's wrong about the data? He keeps saying that states with stricter covid rules didn't fare any better than very lax states. The data say's otherwise and that he's wrong by a LOT! Can't respect people that aren't willing to modify their opinions in light of data and information.


Did I say I agree with everything he says?

No I did not. 

And nothing creeps me out more than people who incessantly quote "data". Seems to me there could be a lot of opinion modification on both sides of the argument. 

But it seems most people just want to be "right". Whatever that is.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> I have a 15 yo. Way harder for her than for me or my wife. I'd totally risk covid again at this point, to keep her in school.


I could understand that older kids might have more trouble.

Anyway with regard to risk-- I'm not at all worried. I'm vaxed/boosted and have done things to get my immune system stronger. I'm not avoiding doing anything and frankly haven't since 2 weeks after my first shot back in April 2021. I want to expose myself to the virus (or maybe I already have) so I can harden my immune system further. If I get really sick, that's a risk I'm willing to take. I also know it's not all about me, so I'm not going to sweat over wearing a mask if someone requests or recommends it.

Anyway the data I posted earlier shows it's pure bunk to claim that states that had lax covid policies fared the similarly to states with strict covid policies.


----------



## MarzNC

trackbiker said:


> At this point insurance companies should start raising rates for the unvaxed.


I remember reading about at least one large company that was going to make unvaccinated employees extra, in addition to the usual payments for health insurance. Think it was an American company but not positive.


----------



## Andy_ROC

G.ski said:


> Did I say I agree with everything he says?
> 
> No I did not.
> 
> And nothing creeps me out more than people who incessantly quote "data". Seems to me there could be a lot of opinion modification on both sides of the argument.
> 
> But it seems most people just want to be "right". Whatever that is.


What's wrong with data? I want to be right based on the data and willing to change my opinion based on any new information that comes to my attention. Sadly there' some people that will have none of that. Do you want the plane carrying your family designed and built based on feelings and opinion or math/science data?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I have a 15 yo. Way harder for her than for me or my wife. I'd totally risk covid again at this point, to keep her in school.


When I wrote what I did I was thinking of a neighbor of mine. He's an amazing athlete, and is a damn good kid. He missed out on a lot of his sports due to the pandemic. I know what sports meant to me when I was his age and I felt so bad for him.


----------



## G.ski

This past weekend I rode a lift at Belle with a very nice couple. 

In the course of conversation the guy volunteered he was not only fully vaccinated and boosted but that he had managed to get a 4th shot as well. He followed that up by telling me that he had had COVID three (3) times. And still afraid he will get it again.

Interested in any feedback anyone might choose to offer, mostly in light of those who might view this as evidence that the vaccine does not work. Yes, I understand this vaccine is different and that its' main function is to protect against severe disease and hospitalization.


----------



## G.ski

Andy_ROC said:


> What's wrong with data? I want to be right based on the data and willing to change my opinion based on any new information that comes to my attention. Sadly there' some people that will have none of that. Do you want the plane carrying your family designed and built based on feelings and opinion or math/science data?


It seems clear to me that endlessly quoting data is not inspiring many folks who do not want to be vaccinated to get vaccinated. Isn't that the point of all this, for everyone to get vaccinated? Or is the point for you to be right so you can rag on folks who feel differently than you do?

Great for you to be "right" but frankly who cares? The right thing to do is stop pounding people with data and look for ways to bring them on board with what is the right thing to do. There's a big difference between being right and doing the right thing.

And I don't fly especially with my whole family. Enclosed spaces are a good way to catch COVID.


----------



## G.ski

MarzNC said:


> I remember reading about at least one large company that was going to make unvaccinated employees extra, in addition to the usual payments for health insurance. Think it was an American company but not positive.


That would be American Airlines.


----------



## MarzNC

G.ski said:


> This past weekend I rode a lift at Belle with a very nice couple.
> 
> In the course of conversation the guy volunteered he was not only fully vaccinated and boosted but that he had managed to get a 4th shot as well. He followed that up by telling me that he had had COVID three (3) times. And still afraid he will get it again.
> 
> Interested in any feedback anyone might choose to offer, mostly in light of those who might view this as evidence that the vaccine does not work. Yes, I understand this vaccine is different and that its' main function is to protect against severe disease and hospitalization.


Questions that come to mind . . . what is his history with getting the flu? How did he socialize in general pre-pandemic? A lot, a little, etc. Is he a "hugger" who tends to get very close to people on a regular basis, especially family and close friends.

Like a flu shot, a COVID-19 vaccination is only one precaution that makes it less likely that someone will get infected. Their behavior around other people is a major factor as well.

I had quite a few years when I was working that for one reason or another I didn't get a flu shot. I didn't get the flu. But my personality is such that I tended to avoid shaking hands even for some professional meetings with clients of my company. In general, I tend not to get very close physically to anyone. That includes family members.

Omicron changed the situation. It's more infectious but causes less serious illness even among unvaccinated people. Although at this stage someone who is unvaccinated may well have had a case of COVID-19 and not know it. So could be that they already had some level of natural immunity.


----------



## MarzNC

G.ski said:


> And I don't fly especially with my whole family. Enclosed spaces are a good way to catch COVID.


Yes and no. Enclosed spaces with little or no ventilation are more risky if there is someone there who has COVID-19 but doesn't know it. That is not what an airplane space is like. The level of ventilation is probably better than many hospitals. Plus people tend to be pretty quiet while on board.

I've been flying for ski trips since Dec 2020. Got vaccinated in April 2021 after I was eligible. Didn't do anything differently when flying during the 2021-22 season compared to the 2020-21 season when few people were vaccinated yet. One of my ski buddies who joined me for a couple trips is a family physician. The other is an immunologist. I'm a retired biostatistician who worked in the pharma industry dealing with clinical trails data (no vaccines). We all came to the same conclusions about the level of risk while flying.

This graphic from 2020 is a bit outdated because Omicron changed the situation. But still gets the point across that ventilation, level of crowding, and what people are doing in a given space (silent, speaking, shouting/singing) are factors worth considering.


----------



## G.ski

MarzNC said:


> Questions that come to mind . . . what is his history with getting the flu? How did he socialize in general pre-pandemic? A lot, a little, etc. Is he a "hugger" who tends to get very close to people on a regular basis, especially family and close friends.
> 
> Like a flu shot, a COVID-19 vaccination is only one precaution that makes it less likely that someone will get infected. Their behavior around other people is a major factor as well.
> 
> I had quite a few years when I was working that for one reason or another I didn't get a flu shot. I didn't get the flu. But my personality is such that I tended to avoid shaking hands even for some professional meetings with clients of my company. In general, I tend not to get very close physically to anyone. That includes family members.
> 
> Omicron changed the situation. It's more infectious but causes less serious illness even among unvaccinated people. Although at this stage someone who is unvaccinated may well have had a case of COVID-19 and not know it. So could be that they already had some level of natural immunity.


Now we're talking.

I'm more introverted that many of you are I think. I don't enjoy closed in spaces or large crowds. So I avoid those types of places which has served me well and prevented me from getting sick with flu or COVID or whatever else. And while I am vaccinated for COVID I never get a flu shot and I never get sick. I just don't expose myself (and by corollary others) to whatever the germ du jour happens to be.


----------



## MarzNC

One of my ski buddies is not vaccinated. I'm not sure why and I don't ask. He was part of a fairly large group who went to Taos the same week and shared either lodging or rental cars, so knowing vaccination status was of interest well before the trip. Most were vaccinated but he and another person were not.

However, I know this guy well enough to be comfortable being indoors with him because I am aware of the level of behavioral precautions he is taking. He's been completely WFH since March 2020. He's been using KN95 masks pretty much as soon as it was clear that COVID-19 is spread by aerosols. Besides skiing, his other hobby is done outdoors or in very large indoor venues (BMX racing, over 50 class).

What's different with Omicron is that I'm starting to worry more about the fact that he's not vaccinated and very unlikely to have had COVID-19 without knowing it. As fewer people take any precautions besides being vaccinated, he will be at greater risk of exposure. I can't imaging he really wants to mask any time he's not at home for the rest of his life.


----------



## Andy_ROC

G.ski said:


> It seems clear to me that endlessly quoting data is not inspiring many folks who do not want to be vaccinated to get vaccinated. Isn't that the point of all this, for everyone to get vaccinated? Or is the point for you to be right so you can rag on folks who feel differently than you do?
> 
> Great for you to be "right" but frankly who cares? The right thing to do is stop pounding people with data and look for ways to bring them on board with what is the right thing to do. There's a big difference between being right and doing the right thing.
> 
> And I don't fly especially with my whole family. Enclosed spaces are a good way to catch COVID.


I didn't mean to respond with such a strong, combative sounding response. Sorry if I came across that way.

Did you even read the information and data I posted earlier today?* It was nothing about vaxed vs unvaxed. * Both natural immunity are effective and the combo might even be better yet. So to be clear I'm not ragging on anyone that feels differently. But I'm gonna call bullshit when someone makes statements that says states that had strict covid protocols vs those that didn't fared similarly. The body count says otherwise and the data I posted is about real people that are now dead.

I'm not sure why so many people think "sticking to your guns" in light of information that proves otherwise is a good characteristic?


----------



## MarzNC

Spent several hours in Great Barrington, MA today. (Skiing wasn't worth the drive time given that Catamount was closed and it was in the 50s this morning in the Berkshires.) As a town that depends heavily on tourism, GB still has quite a few restaurants and other businesses that are requiring masking. Customers are complying. At the same time, there are also shops that don't require masking. Made for a contrast to the outlet shops in Queensbury where few shops required masks and even in those that did there were people who didn't bother.

I'm guessing that the "new normal" in the USA will mean people who choose to be more cautious by masking are less likely to be considered dangerous by others. Back in 2020, people who masked were often thought to be sick by people who didn't understand the advantages of masking from a public health standpoint. In Asia, people have been masking during flu season for a couple decades. Many started during the SARS pandemic that started in 2002 that impacted 29 countries, including the USA and Canada. The H1N1 flu pandemic in 2009 meant more people got in the habit of masking during flu season.


----------



## snoloco

So now the New Hampshire health department is no longer recommending masks. I didn't know they even did, given there's no statewide mandate. This also resulted in a statement from the governor saying that schools should no longer require masks, though it's unclear if any action would be taken to enforce this.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> Both natural immunity are effective and the combo might even be better yet.


The reality is that all the following are very likely in the USA as of Feb 2022. For a given county, the mix is different. But could be that 80% of almost every county already has some form of immunity and/or a combo.

* Vaccinated but not boosted
* Vaccinated and boosted, or more than two shots because immunocompromised
* Vaccinated and had COVID-19 as a breakthrough case recently because of Omicron
* Vaccinated after having had COVID-19 in 2020 or 2021, may not even know already had COVID-19 before vaccination
* Unvaccinated but have some level of natural immunity because had COVID-19 at least once already and recovered

For better or worse, a lot of vulnerable folks died in 2020-21 all over the world. That means the population at risk in 2022 is different than the population at the beginning of 2020. The remaining population are much more likely to have some form of immunity to any variant of SARS-CoV-2. Pandemics last longer than people expect, but they do end even if the disease is not eradicated.

Feb. 21, 2022








Got a Covid Booster? You Probably Won’t Need Another for a Long Time


A flurry of new studies suggests that several parts of the immune system can mount a sustained, potent response to any coronavirus variant.




www.nytimes.com




_" . . .
Three doses of a Covid vaccine — or even just two — are enough to protect most people from serious illness and death for a long time, the studies suggest.

“We’re starting to see now diminishing returns on the number of additional doses,” said John Wherry, director of the Institute for immunology at the University of Pennsylvania. Although people over 65 or at high risk of illness may benefit from a fourth vaccine dose, it may be unnecessary for most people, he added.
. . .

Specialized immune cells called T cells produced after immunization by four brands of Covid vaccine — Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson and Novavax — are about 80 percent as powerful against Omicron as other variants, the research found. Given how different Omicron’s mutations are from previous variants, it’s very likely that T cells would mount a similarly robust attack on any future variant as well, researchers said.

This matches what scientists have found for the SARS coronavirus, which killed nearly 800 people in a 2003 epidemic in Asia. In people exposed to that virus, T cells have lasted more than 17 years. Evidence so far indicates that the immune cells for the new coronavirus — sometimes called memory cells — may also decline very slowly, experts said.
. . ."_


----------



## Andy_ROC

MarzNC said:


> Spent several hours in Great Barrington, MA today. (Skiing wasn't worth the drive time given that Catamount was closed and it was in the 50s this morning in the Berkshires.) As a town that depends heavily on tourism, GB still has quite a few restaurants and other businesses that are requiring masking. Customers are complying. At the same time, there are also shops that don't require masking. Made for a contrast to the outlet shops in Queensbury where few shops required masks and even in those that did there were people who didn't bother.
> 
> I'm guessing that the "new normal" in the USA will mean people who choose to be more cautious by masking are less likely to be considered dangerous by others. Back in 2020, people who masked were often thought to be sick by people who didn't understand the advantages of masking from a public health standpoint. In Asia, people have been masking during flu season for a couple decades. Many started during the SARS pandemic that started in 2002 that impacted 29 countries, including the USA and Canada. The H1N1 flu pandemic in 2009 meant more people got in the habit of masking during flu season.


More interesting info!

One of the good and long lasting things from the pandemic will be more acceptance of masking and not looking like a weirdo. Prior to the pandemic, one of my greatest concerns about air travel beside cancelations and missed connections, was getting a cold or flu from exposure on my flight and then having it ruin my vacation. Anyway I'll probably always wear a mask while flying outbound from now on just to help reduce one possible cause that could ruin my vacation


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> So now the New Hampshire health department is no longer recommending masks. I didn't know they even did, given there's no statewide mandate. This also resulted in a statement from the governor saying that schools should no longer require masks, though it's unclear if any action would be taken to enforce this.


Same has, and will happen in NYS. Only a matter of time. 
The grass ain't greener, lil buckaroo. 
Heck, move to Forestport NY. You can do whatever the F you want, whenever you want, and nobody gives 2 F's about it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

What good has come out of this pandemic. 
On a personal level I made a move at work and couldn't be happier. 
I'll admit I do enjoy the bathrooms being cleaner cause I hang out in some real dives 🤠


----------



## not2brite

You guys need to take it easy on sno. He’s a big boy and likes to dig in his heels and defend himself and I love that about him. But assuming most of you have only ever met him in this forum it’s safe to say you don’t actually know him very well. You can’t possibly know the effect this entire situation has had on him. I say this as a father of a 17 year old daughter. High honor roll, 12th in her class, carrying a 4.0 forever. First school closure was tough but once summer rolled around it looked like she bounced back. It all came crashing down in the fall. Without going into specifics she started intensive therapy. Almost had to send her to an in patient facility. She doing better it’s helping but as a graduating senior college may need to be delayed a year. 
My point is that without knowing the person on the other side, what you guys see as constant whining and complaining may in fact be a much needed outlet. I believe the expression is “before you criticize a man walk a mile in his shoes”


----------



## snoloco

I'm sorry she is going through this. These past 2 years have been so difficult for young people. Part of the reason I'm speaking up is because I know of people who've had it way worse than I have. As damaging as this pandemic has been for my mental health, I feel as though I'm relatively fortunate. Maybe to address what was a public health crisis, we should've taken advice from all parts of the medical field, including mental health professionals. Instead, in certain parts of the country, epidemiologists were given near dictatorial control of the response. They focused on unrealistic goals of "Zero Covid" or watered-down versions of it, and never considered the collateral damage they caused. In my opinion, there needs to be consequences, though I'm not sure what that would look like.


----------



## Brownski

Yeah, I can attest that it has been emotionally hard on younger people. Juniors first semester was more like being in a minimum security jail than real college life. He is a natural rule follower, which made it worse. So think about how much fun you had during your first two years of college. He got none of that.


----------



## not2brite

Thank you sno. I’m old school. Toughen up, get over it. It’s how I was raised and I imagine most in this forum around my age (53) were as well. Doesn’t work with a lot of kids and young people. Most people assume young people can handle it. The “they bounce back easily” argument. I now disagree with it. Young people have few if any points of reference to measure true hardship by. Middle aged and above have been thru the shit. Job loss, career disruption, major illness, divorce, death of parents or siblings and plenty of other major and life altering events. In light of these things some regulations that may or may not make much sense don’t really move the meter much.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Yeah, I can attest that it has been emotionally hard on younger people. Juniors first semester was more like being in a minimum security jail than real college life. He is a natural rule follower, which made it worse. So think about how much fun you had during your first two years of college. He got none of that.


This 
You said it better but that's how I feel about my neighbor's kid. These kids have missed out on so friggin much.
I'm lucky to be alive after my first two years of college. 
Hopefully these kids are rewarded, someday, somehow. They'll be stronger for it.


----------



## Brownski

Just consider that 2 years is like 10% of an 19 year olds life so far, if I did my math right. It’s .3% of my life. That’s many years of perspective that’s available to me that isn’t to a 19 year old.


----------



## snoloco

not2brite said:


> Thank you sno. I’m old school. Toughen up, get over it. It’s how I was raised and I imagine most in this forum around my age (53) were as well. Doesn’t work with a lot of kids and young people. Most people assume young people can handle it. The “they bounce back easily” argument. I now disagree with it. Young people have few if any points of reference to measure true hardship by. Middle aged and above have been thru the shit. Job loss, career disruption, major illness, divorce, death of parents or siblings and plenty of other major and life altering events. In light of these things some regulations that may or may not make much sense don’t really move the meter much.


When I've faced other hardships, I've usually talked to my parents about it, and they've been able to point to a difficult situation they were in, and how they got through it. At the beginning of the pandemic, what was so hard was they didn't have anything to compare it to, and they certainly don't now. I think the longer you've been alive, the more hardships you've faced, and you develop ways to cope. Someone my age, or your daughter's age simply doesn't have that life experience. I mean I'm not even 2 years to living in the real world, and all of it has been during this pandemic. of course as you get older, each year is not as big of a proportion of your life. I'll also comment on Andy's earlier point. Never mistake compliance for resilience.


----------



## wonderpony

tirolski said:


> Yup.
> They should teach bullshitology too. i.e. How to detect bullshit.
> Or maybe that’s better left for home skooling.


I wish they had taught bullshitology in school. It would have saved me five years of rebound relationship after my divorce. I often think that in my next life, I need a better bullshit detector.


----------



## G.ski

Andy_ROC said:


> I didn't mean to respond with such a strong, combative sounding response. Sorry if I came across that way.
> 
> Did you even read the information and data I posted earlier today?* It was nothing about vaxed vs unvaxed. * Both natural immunity are effective and the combo might even be better yet. So to be clear I'm not ragging on anyone that feels differently. But I'm gonna call bullshit when someone makes statements that says states that had strict covid protocols vs those that didn't fared similarly. The body count says otherwise and the data I posted is about real people that are now dead.
> 
> I'm not sure why so many people think "sticking to your guns" in light of information that proves otherwise is a good characteristic?


No, I did not read all that info. I personally get nothing of value from it. 

Worse it makes people argue incessantly with each other interpreting it. And that's the start of all the resistance stuff. 

If you want to modify a person's behavior you have to bring them on board as a colleague. Arguing, name calling, and bullshit callouts do not accomplish anything.

That's all I'm saying. If we can't play nice we'll never have nice things again.


----------



## G.ski

not2brite said:


> You guys need to take it easy on sno. He’s a big boy and likes to dig in his heels and defend himself and I love that about him. But assuming most of you have only ever met him in this forum it’s safe to say you don’t actually know him very well. You can’t possibly know the effect this entire situation has had on him. I say this as a father of a 17 year old daughter. High honor roll, 12th in her class, carrying a 4.0 forever. First school closure was tough but once summer rolled around it looked like she bounced back. It all came crashing down in the fall. Without going into specifics she started intensive therapy. Almost had to send her to an in patient facility. She doing better it’s helping but as a graduating senior college may need to be delayed a year.
> My point is that without knowing the person on the other side, what you guys see as constant whining and complaining may in fact be a much needed outlet. I believe the expression is “before you criticize a man walk a mile in his shoes”


My oldest son had a bout of depression over the holidays. I hear more and more stories now that I'm attuned to it.
What has been done to our young people is an outrage!


----------



## Tjf1967

> G.ski said:
> 
> 
> 
> My oldest son had a bout of depression over the holidays. I hear more and more stories now that I'm attuned to it.
> What has been done to our young people is an outrage!
Click to expand...


Really. What has been done to them? Maybe you should write a letter to president Xi.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm lucky to be alive after my first two years of college.


Attaboy 👍 
Folks alive now should consider themselves lucky to be alive.
Everyday and moment a blessing.
It ain’t easy sometimes but it’s the only game in town.


----------



## Harvey

not2brite said:


> You guys need to take it easy on sno. He’s a big boy and likes to dig in his heels and defend himself and I love that about him. But assuming most of you have only ever met him in this forum it’s safe to say you don’t actually know him very well. You can’t possibly know the effect this entire situation has had on him. I say this as a father of a 17 year old daughter. High honor roll, 12th in her class, carrying a 4.0 forever. First school closure was tough but once summer rolled around it looked like she bounced back. It all came crashing down in the fall. Without going into specifics she started intensive therapy. Almost had to send her to an in patient facility. She doing better it’s helping but as a graduating senior college may need to be delayed a year.
> My point is that without knowing the person on the other side, what you guys see as constant whining and complaining may in fact be a much needed outlet. I believe the expression is “before you criticize a man walk a mile in his shoes”


As a father of a 15 yo girl, I can relate to this bigtime.


----------



## Brownski

Hey Harv, aren't you glad you don't have to start a new thread every time it hits 100 pages like in the old days? I bet you don't miss that.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Hey Harv, aren't you glad you don't have to start a new thread every time it hits 100 pages like in the old days? I bet you don't miss that.


Yes and a million other things that were ridiculous about Nabble. The XF guys say there is no limit.


----------



## tirolski

jasonwx said:


> Before covid
> NY has very few restriction
> Aside from gun laws ( subject for another day)
> You can worship freely
> Love and marry whom ever you want
> Drink and smoke what ever you want
> Etc.
> just remember covid isn’t forever


There’s this, just saying. YMMV.




__





Browse - New York Codes, Rules and Regulations







govt.westlaw.com


----------



## MC2

I can not believe that people in this forum are saying how “tough” people have had it from COVID *while a country’s cities are currently being destroyed by another country*

So you had to wear a mask for a while. Boohoo. You could still go to bars, parties, sporting events, movies, concerts, etc.

At the beginning of COVID, I was hoping it would give people perspective as to what matters in life (family, relationships, meaningful work, etc.), but it seems to have really destroyed a lot of people’s ability to discern an actual hardship from an imagined one.


----------



## Campgottagopee

not2brite said:


> You guys need to take it easy on sno.


Negative. He brings a lot of it on himself. If a person posts stupid shit on an internet forum they'll get blasted. I know I have. The "kid" needs to grow up, bigley.


not2brite said:


> You can’t possibly know the effect this entire situation has had on him.


Sure we do. Everyone has been going through the same pandemic.


not2brite said:


> I say this as a father of a 17 year old daughter. High honor roll, 12th in her class, carrying a 4.0 forever. First school closure was tough but once summer rolled around it looked like she bounced back. It all came crashing down in the fall. Without going into specifics she started intensive therapy.


This sucks. I can relate as a niece of mine is going through much the same. Thankfully for her, and your daughter, they have loving parents/friends around them to help the through it.


not2brite said:


> My point is that without knowing the person on the other side, what you guys see as constant whining and complaining may in fact be a much needed outlet


Other than a few people, all we know each other by is what is posted here. Sno has been a whinny lil bitch for years now.


----------



## jasonwx

Camp
You seem to be having the same day as me. 
😎


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Camp
> You seem to be having the same day as me.
> 😎


LOL
Just call em as I see em


----------



## Andy_ROC

MC2 said:


> I can not believe that people in this forum are saying how “tough” people have had it from COVID *while a country’s cities are currently being destroyed by another country*
> 
> So you had to wear a mask for a while. Boohoo. You could still go to bars, parties, sporting events, movies, concerts, etc.
> 
> At the beginning of COVID, I was hoping it would give people perspective as to what matters in life (family, relationships, meaningful work, etc.), but it seems to have really destroyed a lot of people’s ability to discern an actual hardship from an imagined one.


^^^^This!!!!!! 

While covid has been a hardship for most everyone and definitely more for some people, it's still relatively short compared to the hardship of some others generations. Some act as if covid is the only hardship faced by mass population and young people in modern times. Well it isn't. 

Some large events that had long lasting global impacts and modified way of life that come to mind:
- WW2: While my parents were very young children at the time they experienced significant hardship for 6 years. My grandmother and grandfather were in their mid 20's raising a family the best they could. The hardship they endured during the same age's as we're talking about here were significant. Job loss. Food and product rationing. Fear of war on US soil. Blackout and air raid drills. Dying in war. Trying to keep their children safe. Lets also not forget that WW2 came shortly after the end of the great depression. If you could talk to those people today to complain about mask wearing compared to their hardships they'd laugh in your face. 

- Or how about Sept 11 2001? We witnessed the mass murder of over 3,000 innocent people on US soil that day. While a vast number more died slow deaths in the days, weeks and years later as a result from that day. All of our lives in the free world were radically changed that blue sky morning. I'm sure there are people in this blog that may have lost friends or family that day. Think of the traumatic impact it had on all of us, including the youth. We lost our feeling of security which took a long time to return to semi normal. Virtually every event we attended and every time we traveled were radically changed and many of those changes remain today. The adverse psychological effects of that day were profound and long lasting. 

Mental health was not great before the pandemic so lets not completely blame covid. The pandemic was like adding gas to an already burning hot fire. A lot of it is rooted back to the internet and social media. A sincere suggestion for those that are struggling like Sno --- Beside seeking professional help, maybe they should start with getting away from whatever is causing stress. I can almost guarantee some of it is traceable back to Facebook, Podcasts, Twitter, and AM radio anger propaganda. Just get away from it and go outside and spend time with friends and family.

Yes 2020 was really tough. Especially tough for people whom lost their jobs and still had families to support. Really tough for people that lost businesses. Really tough for children to miss out on in person teaching and socialization at school. Really tough for the millions of people whom died or were impacted by family and friends that died from covid, but you also have company with the hardships of past generations. 

Also lets look at the glass half full instead of half empty. We seem to be on the back side of this thing. The only thing that drove the return of masks was the holiday spike and record hospitalization. But that has since dropped dramatically and the brief reinstatement of the mask mandate in response to the hospitalization spike is now over. The days are getting better at least for covid. 

At this point we probably should be more concerned about an escalating war due to the invasion of a democratic country.


----------



## Big Deal

There are probably some good deals on skiing Ukraine right now


----------



## tirolski

Big Deal said:


> There are probably some good deals on skiing Ukraine right now


Backcountry might put ya outta harms way.
Earn yer turns.


----------



## snoloco

MC2 said:


> I can not believe that people in this forum are saying how “tough” people have had it from COVID *while a country’s cities are currently being destroyed by another country*
> 
> So you had to wear a mask for a while. Boohoo. You could still go to bars, parties, sporting events, movies, concerts, etc.
> 
> At the beginning of COVID, I was hoping it would give people perspective as to what matters in life (family, relationships, meaningful work, etc.), but it seems to have really destroyed a lot of people’s ability to discern an actual hardship from an imagined one.


This really exposes your true character, and not in a good way. You wished this pandemic would result in a socialist, collectivist utopia. When that didn't happen, you resorted to insults against anyone who dared question why we kept the restrictions you supported, and still support, long after they were necessary. And then you use a terrible crisis elsewhere in the world to insult those who disagreed with you and trivilaize the hardships others had as a result of this pandemic and our failed response to it. Also, it's interesting how you refer to "what really matters in life". The politicians you support tried to take that all away. Meaningful work? They shut down businesses, put people out of work, and denied kids an education. Family relationships? They shamed people for traveling and gathering with family. There are people who put off visiting family, only for their loved ones to die before they had the chance.

The war in Ukraine is appalling on every level, and I feel very fortunate to live in the United States, where we are not at threat of invasion. It does not change my opinion on domestic issues regarding the pandemic. It does make it clear that the only thing I agree with the right on is my opposition to covid mandates. I really wish there was a political party that supports NATO and is opposed to brutal dictators waging war for shits and giggles, but also opposed to unprecedented infringements on individual liberties back home. I don't think one exists. 

Now that we're watching a real war unfold, it is becoming increasingly absurd that we ever treated covid as if it was a war. If your country is under attack, everything is on the line, so you drop everything and deal with the threat. With the pandemic, we were never in that situation, even in April 2020, yet overzealous politicians are still endlessly extending emergency declarations as if we are.

Also, I suggest you look at the timestamp on my earlier post, which was before the invasion actually began. Either you didn't or you're lying.

I've opened up about some very personal things in this thread for the purpose of raising awareness. Turns out I was foolish for doing so. All you ever did was insult me every chance you got. Shameful, toxic, vindictive, selfish, and mean-spirited doesn't even begin to describe how despicable you are. I'm done arguing with you. It's clear you are beyond help. I'm also done with this forum for a very long time.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> ….


I’m not reading all that, could you sum it up in a few words for me?


----------



## Tjf1967

snoloco said:


> This really exposes your true character, and not in a good way. You wished this pandemic would result in a socialist, collectivist utopia. When that didn't happen, you resorted to insults against anyone who dared question why we kept the restrictions you supported, and still support, long after they were necessary. And then you use a terrible crisis elsewhere in the world to insult those who disagreed with you and trivilaize the hardships others had as a result of this pandemic and our failed response to it. Also, it's interesting how you refer to "what really matters in life". The politicians you support tried to take that all away. Meaningful work? They shut down businesses, put people out of work, and denied kids an education. Family relationships? They shamed people for traveling and gathering with family. There are people who put off visiting family, only for their loved ones to die before they had the chance.
> 
> The war in Ukraine is appalling on every level, and I feel very fortunate to live in the United States, where we are not at threat of invasion. It does not change my opinion on domestic issues regarding the pandemic. It does make it clear that the only thing I agree with the right on is my opposition to covid mandates. I really wish there was a political party that supports NATO and is opposed to brutal dictators waging war for shits and giggles, but also opposed to unprecedented infringements on individual liberties back home. I don't think one exists.
> 
> Now that we're watching a real war unfold, it is becoming increasingly absurd that we ever treated covid as if it was a war. If your country is under attack, everything is on the line, so you drop everything and deal with the threat. With the pandemic, we were never in that situation, even in April 2020, yet overzealous politicians are still endlessly extending emergency declarations as if we are.
> 
> Also, I suggest you look at the timestamp on my earlier post, which was before the invasion actually began. Either you didn't or you're lying.
> 
> I've opened up about some very personal things in this thread for the purpose of raising awareness. Turns out I was foolish for doing so. All you ever did was insult me every chance you got. Shameful, toxic, vindictive, selfish, and mean-spirited doesn't even begin to describe how despicable you are. I'm done arguing with you. It's clear you are beyond help. I'm also done with this forum for a very long time.


Pretty weak. So is a long time like two weeks? That's a long time someone your age.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> I’m not reading all that, could you sum it up in a few words for me?


It was a very long way around the barn to say he disagrees with you.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> This really exposes your true character, and not in a good way. You wished this pandemic would result in a socialist, collectivist utopia. When that didn't happen, you resorted to insults against anyone who dared question why we kept the restrictions you supported, and still support, long after they were necessary. And then you use a terrible crisis elsewhere in the world to insult those who disagreed with you and trivilaize the hardships others had as a result of this pandemic and our failed response to it. Also, it's interesting how you refer to "what really matters in life". The politicians you support tried to take that all away. Meaningful work? They shut down businesses, put people out of work, and denied kids an education. Family relationships? They shamed people for traveling and gathering with family. There are people who put off visiting family, only for their loved ones to die before they had the chance.
> 
> The war in Ukraine is appalling on every level, and I feel very fortunate to live in the United States, where we are not at threat of invasion. It does not change my opinion on domestic issues regarding the pandemic. It does make it clear that the only thing I agree with the right on is my opposition to covid mandates. I really wish there was a political party that supports NATO and is opposed to brutal dictators waging war for shits and giggles, but also opposed to unprecedented infringements on individual liberties back home. I don't think one exists.
> 
> Now that we're watching a real war unfold, it is becoming increasingly absurd that we ever treated covid as if it was a war. If your country is under attack, everything is on the line, so you drop everything and deal with the threat. With the pandemic, we were never in that situation, even in April 2020, yet overzealous politicians are still endlessly extending emergency declarations as if we are.
> 
> Also, I suggest you look at the timestamp on my earlier post, which was before the invasion actually began. Either you didn't or you're lying.
> 
> I've opened up about some very personal things in this thread for the purpose of raising awareness. Turns out I was foolish for doing so. All you ever did was insult me every chance you got. Shameful, toxic, vindictive, selfish, and mean-spirited doesn't even begin to describe how despicable you are. I'm done arguing with you. It's clear you are beyond help. I'm also done with this forum for a very long time.


Don’t leave Sno.


----------



## tirolski

snoloco said:


> I'm also done with this forum for a very long time.


Thinking of it as well.
Lurked at first as it had some good info on Gore.
Bought a M-F pass to get in shape for a planned dream ski trip to the Dolomites.
Then Covid came to town.
The rest is history.
Ski ya later folks.
Have fun, stay safe.
Might practice up as an ugly american for the skimo senior league games.
Be good y’all.  ❄️✌️


----------



## Brownski

raisingarizona said:


> Don’t leave Sno.


Yeah, I don’t want you to leave either, Sno. You’ve got a lot of interesting takes on lifts and snowmaking and such. I appreciate your contributions.


----------



## CNY Skier

So if I am to understand this thread, Snoloco is a young guy so his opinions are automatically discarded? In my opinion, his intellectual capacity to correctly assess the current situation far surpasses many of the participants on this forum. My only fear is that he also bought into the vaccination crusade - he and many of you will suffer from this decision. 

This thread has devolved into a bully driven conversation and really doesn't belong on a "ski forum." Suggestion to the boss (Harvey) - get rid of the "Off Topic" conversations and keep it about skiing.

My local cycling club had the same problem - I've always known that I'm among a bunch of nutty-crunchy people but first and foremost we were cyclists. Once covid hit they turned into a bunch of whack-jobs and started demanding crazy things like "when in the parking lot before a ride, all participants must be masked." Needless to say, the participation rate declined. I haven't ridden with these morons in two years.

Here's the bottom line: covid was a respiratory virus that affected people of age and/or comorbidities. For most people it was a minor inconvenience. The government reaction to this was over the top. Many people bought into the hysteria. That's it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CNY Skier said:


> . My only fear is that he also bought into the vaccination crusade - he and many of you will suffer from this decision.


Suffer? 
How's that? 
This should be good.


----------



## Brownski

Record-setting 2021 opioid overdose death toll continues to rise


State data shows that through November last year, 181 Vermonters died of an opioid overdose. By comparison, 157 fatal overdoses were reported in all of 2020.



vtdigger.org


----------



## MC2

Campgottagopee said:


> Suffer?
> How's that?
> This should be good.


He probably thinks that Bill Gates is about to flip the “microchip activation switch”

I love how people like snoloco are like “you’re terrible, only my ideas are valid. I’m a knowledgeable intellectual” and then an antivaxxer comes on and says “hell yeah, snoloco’s ideas are definitely correct”


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> Record-setting 2021 opioid overdose death toll continues to rise
> 
> 
> State data shows that through November last year, 181 Vermonters died of an opioid overdose. By comparison, 157 fatal overdoses were reported in all of 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> vtdigger.org


So, the year where they had less COVID restrictions (and no complete lockdown), they had more overdose deaths?

Maybe it has something to do with fentanyl & less to do with COVID?


----------



## raisingarizona

@cnyskier

There’s only so much that can be said about skiing. Especially if it’s focused on skiing mainly in the east and even more so if it’s mainly focused on the state of New York.

What’s my point? You gotta have some level of traffic to keep your advertisers happy so eliminating anything other than skiing topics is probably not the best business decision. Maybe I’m off on this or missing something, hopefully Harvey can fill us in.


----------



## raisingarizona

MC2 said:


> I love how people like snoloco are like “you’re terrible, only my ideas are valid. I’m a knowledgeable intellectual”


Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## MC2

raisingarizona said:


> Pot, meet kettle.


Lol, you can have any opinion you want. You can’t expect to have no pushback.

And no, I don’t unleash paragraphs of name calling & personal attacks (every once in a while I say something like “you sound like a whiny child when you complain about masks 1 week before you don’t have to wear one”, but that’s more of a simile than direct name calling)


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> @cnyskier
> 
> There’s only so much that can be said about skiing. Especially if it’s focused on skiing mainly in the east and even more so if it’s mainly focused on the state of New York.
> 
> What’s my point? You gotta have some level of traffic to keep your advertisers happy so eliminating anything other than skiing topics is probably not the best business decision. Maybe I’m off on this or missing something, hopefully Harvey can fill us in.


Maybe more discussion about things like gear and beer and MTB  

As a beer fan I feel NY has pulled way ahead in the pack. In my opinion even ahead of Vermont.


----------



## Brownski

MC2 said:


> He probably thinks that Bill Gates is about to flip the “microchip activation switch”
> 
> I love how people like snoloco are like “you’re terrible, only my ideas are valid. I’m a knowledgeable intellectual” and then an antivaxxer comes on and says “hell yeah, snoloco’s ideas are definitely correct”


Probably not fair to draw an equivalence. CNY skier seemed to join right after I made a plea for listening to each other and being open minded. Then he started spouting spike protein this and pharma industrial that and he tmade me regret participating in the conversation at all. 
Sno is in an entirely different category. His concerns and criticisms are rational and worth listening to. He isn’t able to put it in perspective some times and often presents things in a way that sounds whiny and triggers some but he’s a smart individual and I think he’s honestly trying to figure things out..


----------



## Brownski

Andy_ROC said:


> Maybe more discussion about things like gear and beer and MTB
> 
> As a beer fan I feel NY has pulled way ahead in the pack. In my opinion even ahead of Vermont.


Something we can agree on. I’m lucky to have Defiant and Industrial Arts right in my backyard and they’re both top notch. Plus NY has the two greatest cheap beers in all of history- UC and Genny.


----------



## not2brite

Brownski said:


> Something we can agree on. I’m lucky to have Defiant and Industrial Arts right in my backyard and they’re both top notch. Plus NY has the two greatest cheap beers in all of history- UC and Genny.


Genny Cream Ale is a laxative, not a beer.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Brownski said:


> Something we can agree on. I’m lucky to have Defiant and Industrial Arts right in my backyard and they’re both top notch. Plus NY has the two greatest cheap beers in all of history- UC and Genny.


Nice. I haven't had Defiant, but really like IA.
In the ROC region we have Other Half and Mortalis that are absolute top shelf making some very interesting beer. Then we have a large list of just below top shelf brewers. IPA's, Stouts, Sours are my favorites. 

Also I hear Fiden's in the Albany area is one of the best in the north east. 

It's a great time to be a fine beer drinker, especially in NY


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> . He isn’t able to put it in perspective some times and often presents things in a way that sounds whiny and triggers some but he’s a smart individual and I think he’s honestly trying to figure things out..


This is mostly what annoys me. I find that when he develops an opinion, he stops the “figuring out” process and then immediately switches into “I’m right, you’re wrong” mode.

Which is *still* fine for an opinion like “The school Mask requirement should have been dropped 2 weeks ago instead of this Friday”, but pretty annoying for an opinion like “We’re going to have to wear masks all winter, every winter”


----------



## Brownski

Granted


----------



## Brownski

Druthers Brewery in Albany was pretty good and they make some really tasty tacos. Right down the block from Nipper, on the Menands border. They may be in Menands actually, not sure


----------



## Andy_ROC

Brownski said:


> Druthers Brewery in Albany was pretty good and they make some really tasty tacos. Right down the block from Nipper, on the Menands border. They may be in Menands actually, not sure



I've been to Druthers in Saratoga and also had dinner there and liked it a lot. Also Artisanal in Saratoga was excellent. 
Saratoga is such a fun town and also a great location to outdoor activates in NY and VT. But if I live there I'd probably have to check in to rehab after about 6 months


----------



## Peter Minde

not2brite said:


> Genny Cream Ale is a laxative, not a beer.


My grandfather was a Utica Club guy. That settles it.


----------



## Warp daddy

Brownski said:


> Something we can agree on. I’m lucky to have Defiant and Industrial Arts right in my backyard and they’re both top notch. Plus NY has the two greatest cheap beers in all of history- UC and Genny.


As one born and raised in Utica can honestly say UC is rot gut😂😂😂😂


----------



## Warp daddy

Warp daddy said:


> As one born and raised in Utica can honestly say UC is rot gut😂😂😂😂


And to make matters worse , Dooley pissed in Hemlock Lake 😏😎


----------



## Campgottagopee

Peter Minde said:


> My grandfather was a Utica Club guy. That settles it.


Same here 
UC is big in Forestport. Can't get away from it. My favorite style of beer is pilsner, but not that one.


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## raisingarizona

MC2 said:


> Lol, you can have any opinion you want. You can’t expect to have no pushback.
> 
> And no, I don’t unleash paragraphs of name calling & personal attacks (every once in a while I say something like “you sound like a whiny child when you complain about masks 1 week before you don’t have to wear one”, but that’s more of a simile than direct name calling)


Well nanny nanny poo poo, stick your head in doo doo.


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## jamesdeluxe

Andy_ROC said:


> It's a great time to be a fine beer drinker, especially in NY


Growing up in the 70s, I remember that the local beers of choice were Genny Cream Ale, Matt's, and Utica Club with out-of-region favorites being Moosehead, Old Vienna, Piels, Schaefer, Rheingold, and Molson (especially their stronger Brador, you had to bring it back from north of the border!). I've mentioned elsewhere in the off-topic forum that I'm a regular visitor to the Nostalgic Syracuse Facebook page, which is a bottomless pit of all things CNY. Through it, I learned about Congress Beer (Haberle Brewery), which was around for more than a century; however, I never heard one word about it as a kid -- very odd.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> Probably not fair to draw an equivalence. CNY skier seemed to join right after I made a plea for listening to each other and being open minded. Then he started spouting spike protein this and pharma industrial that and he tmade me regret participating in the conversation at all.
> Sno is in an entirely different category. His concerns and criticisms are rational and worth listening to. He isn’t able to put it in perspective some times and often presents things in a way that sounds whiny and triggers some but he’s a smart individual and I think he’s honestly trying to figure things out..


I agree. I actually joined this forum after lurking for a while because I wanted to geek out with him on ski area development and planning. I actually do that sort of thing now with mountain bike and hiking trails for a job.


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## raisingarizona

Too many fancy beers give me mud butt.


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## Andy_ROC

jamesdeluxe said:


> Growing up in the 70s, I remember that the local beers of choice were Genny Cream Ale, Matt's, and Utica Club with out-of-region favorites being Moosehead, Old Vienna, Piels, Schaefer, Rheingold, and Molson (especially their stronger Brador, you had to bring it back from north of the border!). I've mentioned elsewhere in the off-topic forum that I'm a regular visitor to the Nostalgic Syracuse Facebook page, which is a bottomless pit of all things CNY. Through it, I learned about Congress Beer (Haberle Brewery), which was around for more than a century; however, I never heard one word about it as a kid -- very odd.
> 
> View attachment 13259


A trip down nostalgic lane  So yeah I remember those beers you mentioned. Our choices were limited to pretty much the same style of beers just with different names. Oh yeah Brador ~6.2% was a coveted by me and my buds and we'd drive up and buy once in a while--- it was different and strong. Last I heard Brador was discontinued years ago. I also remember Coors was a big deal because it was only available Rockies and west. Overall back in those days Molson was probably my favorite brand. If we were feeling high class we'd buy some Lowenbrau--- remember it has the fancy foil around the top?  

Today I'm now a beer snob and won't drink any of that stuff. Most the stuff I buy is like $4-6 a can! WTF


----------



## Tjf1967

MC2 said:


> He probably thinks that Bill Gates is about to flip the “microchip activation switch”
> 
> I love how people like snoloco are like “you’re terrible, only my ideas are valid. I’m a knowledgeable intellectual” and then an antivaxxer comes on and says “hell yeah, snoloco’s ideas are definitely correct”


Sno is vaxed and boosted. He followed the rules he just didn't like the mask policy after he did what was right. This guy is the reason for the mask policies carrying on so long. If course he has the right to do what he wants but his ignorance created the need for masks longer.


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## MC2

Tjf1967 said:


> Sno is vaxed and boosted. He followed the rules he just didn't like the mask policy after he did what was right. This guy is the reason for the mask policies carrying on so long. If course he has the right to do what he wants but his ignorance created the need for masks longer.


Yeah, it was more of a comment on attracting more flies with shitty posts.

Relatedly, I could adopt the “Bees don’t bother asking flies why they prefer horseshit to flowers” attitude, but if snoloco is as smart as everyone says he is, he should know to stay out of the horseshit (which he is hopefully doing. My opinion continues to be that he needs to spend some time offline, interacting with real people, and he needs to get laid).


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## Ripitz

He is smart. He is not responding to you anymore.


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## jamesdeluxe

Andy_ROC said:


> I also remember Coors was a big deal because it was only available Rockies and west.


Right. That was pretty masterful product placement in the movie Smokey and the Bandit. Of course, then you drank it and realised that it was sock juice.


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## raisingarizona

jamesdeluxe said:


> Right. That was pretty masterful product placement in the movie Smokey and the Bandit. Of course, then you drank it and realised that it was sock juice.


Hey now! I love me an ice cold original. 

Honestly I’m not drinking now but I do love those.


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## witch hobble

MC2 said:


> attracting more flies with shitty posts.


That’s Adk Johnny and my job.

I like sno, but he can get into hysterics…..ie MC’s Socialist, Collectivist Utopia as a desired outcome of covid. A million other examples.

I try to remember that I don’t really know almost any posters here personally, and therefore not take any of you too seriously (no offense, and I sure hope it’s reciprocal). But in moments where I actually try to get into sno’s head and gain perspective, it makes me wonder (and maybe worry?) about what his media intake is.

Message board flameouts (and we HAVE SEEN SOME DOOZIES around here) are always simultaneously cringey and funny. Train wreck stuff.


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## jasonwx

people are going to throw daggers at me..
Listen to Dr Osterholm on Yes Joe Rogen.. It's a real honest and informative pod cast...Dr Osterholm is all about the science and zero politics..


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## G.ski

Ripitz said:


> He is smart. He is not responding to you anymore.


I'm done with this thread too. I'm sure nobody will care.

I'm suspicious of anyone who knows it all.


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## Tjf1967

If you're done with it just stop posting.


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## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> If you're done with it just stop posting.


Right 
It's not an airport, no need to announce your departure.


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## BRLKED

Gee, I love this thread, it is so entertaining. Normal is these days abnormal.


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## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> Hey now! I love me an ice cold original.
> 
> Honestly I’m not drinking now but I do love those.


Coors light is one of the few huge commercial beers I drink semi regularly. The low alcohol, light beer taste and wide availability make it an easy choice.

@jamesdeluxe 
Oh another great NY brewery is Beer Tree. I haven't been to the brewery but I can buy their products locally. Definitely some elite beer. IPA's, Stouts and Sours. Morning Timber (LOL) is an outstanding higher alcohol stout.


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## JTG

I’d say “we just need snow”……but this ain’t September, and we just got snow!


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## Harvey

I'll join with those who feel sno's contribution is a big plus here. I was thinking about this earlier. He knows more about lifts than any of our "regular" posters, second only to @Peter. He shares what he knows and explains it articulately.

CNY suggesting the OT should be killed, when he/she only posts in the OT is haha. How has the skiing been since your one post about skiing a year ago? I can remove you from the OT if it will help you.

Also would like to add ... advertising is on this site because I like the way it looks, especially in season. And it amuses me. Revenue is pretty low (covers hosting and a little more) and has nothing to do with decisions like "should we have an OT."


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I'll join with those who feel sno's contribution is a big plus here. I was thinking about this earlier. He knows more about lifts than any of our "regular" posters, second only to @Peter. He shares what he knows and explains it articulately.


I don't think anyone would argue this.


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## MC2

He knows a lot about lifts, that’s true.

But if I don’t end up knowing the uphill hourly capacity of a new 8 pack bubble chair, my life will be pretty much the same.


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## Harvey

Well then nothing else matters.


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## Warp daddy

So bottom line :As the forum commissar , You're going to do ,what you're going to do .

Well that's earth shattering news .😁


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## MC2

Harvey said:


> Well then nothing else matters.


The beer conversation was good. Got some new stuff to try.

Gotta get what you can outta the forums and ignore the stuff that you’re not interested in. Not sure why that’s so difficult for some.


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## raisingarizona

Joe Rogan did a podcast on craft beers a few years back that was really good. I’ll try to find it and post it up in here.


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## jasonwx

I work in a building in Jersey City that has a great brewery..Departed Souls Brewery ..tremendous stuff..
sorry for the thread hijack..


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## witch hobble

I loved the switch away from glass, but I’d like the craft brewers to migrate back to 12 oz cans, particularly for the hoppiest offerings. It’s not so bad in winter, but on a hot summer day the last few ounces of a 16 oz heady topper (or such) often has to be choked down.


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## MC2

witch hobble said:


> I loved the switch away from glass, but I’d like the craft brewers to migrate back to 12 oz cans, particularly for the hoppiest offerings. It’s not so bad in winter, but on a hot summer day the last few ounces of a 16 oz heady topper (or such) often has to be choked down.


Session IPAs (or pilsners) in summer, big beers in winter.


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## witch hobble

MC2 said:


> Session IPAs (or pilsners) in summer, big beers in winter.


For sure. Saison in summer ideally. But sometimes, at a trailhead or take out or backyard barbecue the choice is made by others. I guess that I shouldn’t “look a gift beer in the hops” or something.


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## Harvey

The grocery store in north creek doesnt seem to have regular crappy beer anymore or maybe i didnt look hard enough.

I tried omme gang something in a green can. I liked it. More than i thought i would.


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## Andy_ROC

MC2 said:


> The beer conversation was good. Got some new stuff to try.
> 
> Gotta get what you can outta the forums and ignore the stuff that you’re not interested in. Not sure why that’s so difficult for some.


So what's the new stuff you're trying?


witch hobble said:


> I loved the switch away from glass, but I’d like the craft brewers to migrate back to 12 oz cans, particularly for the hoppiest offerings. It’s not so bad in winter, but on a hot summer day the last few ounces of a 16 oz heady topper (or such) often has to be choked down.


My problem is that I drink too fast so that I never have that problem. 12 oz would help me drink less though.


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## wonderpony

Back in the dark ages, I spent a year in Seattle when my dad was on sabbatical. Rainier beer had the best commercials. I also liked the beer, but what do you know when you are in HS.


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## Andy_ROC

wonderpony said:


> Back in the dark ages, I spent a year in Seattle when my dad was on sabbatical. Rainier beer had the best commercials. I also liked the beer, but what do you know when you are in HS.


The only beer that Sheriff Longmire drinks


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## Brownski

wonderpony said:


> Back in the dark ages, I spent a year in Seattle when my dad was on sabbatical. Rainier beer had the best commercials. I also liked the beer, but what do you know when you are in HS.


There used to be a PNW beer called Lucky Lager. Cheap stuff. I drank a tractor trailer full when I was in AK


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## JTG

Elysian makes some good stuff out Seattle way. Yeah, owned by AB. Beer ain’t much different than skiing, it would seem.


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## Campgottagopee

I applaud all those who are doing away with mask mandates 💪


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## Harvey

My folks, both close to 90, just tested positive for the first time. So far, it seems ok? 🤞


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## jamesdeluxe

Same with my mother in Denver yesterday. She sounds fine, says it's like a cold.


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## Sbob

In the last 2 years Moms had:
Heart attack, kidney stones, Covid, Septic shock ,MRSA ,3 UTIs . She turned 96 last fall .
Covid gave a bit of a brain fog and weak legs but she recovered in a few months. Still has her mental sharpness. 
90 is the new 70


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## sibhusky

My daughter and her fiance just tested positive. In their 30's, both vaccinated and boosted, but the boost was in December. She is miserable, he has only had itchy eyes so far.

I get booster #2 this week. (Had already planned it.)

People are not reporting their cases, so it's hard to know locally how high the case rate really is. They picked it up in Missoula (Case rate 85 per 100K), brought it to Ravalli County (38 per 100k). These are really low case rates to be actually coming in contact with anyone, and we haven't had a mask ordinance since the beginning of 2021. I'm up in Flathead County and the case rate is 75.1 per 100k. I've never stopped masking indoors (or in lift lines). The happy couple has been almost always maskless. And of course they haven't reported it.


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## Harvey

Anybody who plans to get number 4 going to wait for moderna 2.0?


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## raisingarizona

My gf had it last week. I didn’t distance myself from her or take any sort of precautions. I feel like it’s best to be exposed to it as often as possible. I didn’t get sick.


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## Warp daddy

Got number 4, 2 weeks ago ,will get nother in Late Fall,if reccommended


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## jasonwx

Warp daddy said:


> Got number 4, 2 weeks ago ,will get nother in Late Fall,if reccommended


Same


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> My gf had it last week. I didn’t distance myself from her or take any sort of precautions. I feel like it’s best to be exposed to it as often as possible. I didn’t get sick.


Hard to argue with that IMO.


----------



## Peter Minde

jasonwx said:


> Same


First three jabs were Pfizer, I just got Moderna for #4. If I can get another in fall, I will.


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## jasonwx

Peter Minde said:


> First three jabs were Pfizer, I just got Moderna for #4. If I can get another in fall, I will.


My doc friend did the same


----------



## Endoftheline

jasonwx said:


> My doc friend did the same


2 Pfizers then 2 Modernas, got 2nd Mod last week. Will get another in the fall if recommended, WHT, might as well.


----------



## sibhusky

Harvey said:


> Anybody who plans to get number 4 going to wait for moderna 2.0?


I wanted to, but it's been 7 months since the last one and I don't think I should wait until October. First 2 were Pfizer, then I switched to Moderna. Next will be Moderna as well.


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## jamesdeluxe

raisingarizona said:


> I didn’t distance myself from her or take any sort of precautions. I feel like it’s best to be exposed to it as often as possible. I didn’t get sick.


Didn't you catch the current variant recently?


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## Harvey

jamesdeluxe said:


> Didn't you catch the current variant recently?


How do you find out the variant?


----------



## Brownski

Have any of you guys had your antibody level checked? Or are you getting the shot based on age or other factors?


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## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> Have any of you guys had your antibody level checked? Or are you getting the shot based on age or other factors?


age and other factors...


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> How do you find out the variant?


In 2022 in the USA, the only variant spreading all over the place was some version of Omicron. In 2021, Delta was causing a surge after about May. CDC estimates are based on genomic testing of samples in assorted states.









COVID Data Tracker


CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



covid.cdc.gov


----------



## Brownski

jasonwx said:


> age and other factors...


But is anybody checking for antibodies? That seems relevant and at this point testing is available, right? I’m not in any hurry for shot 4. I’d Like to know what my antibodies count is though.


----------



## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> But is anybody checking for antibodies? That seems relevant and at this point testing is available, right? I’m not in any hurry for shot 4. I’d Like to know what my antibodies count is though.


Come on brother , don't be afraid. Ya ever read the ingredients in your diet coke? and the whiskey/scotch that you love can run your car.. roll up that sleeve and get poked. just joking , i wasn't keen on the 4th one either


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## Harvey

Brownski said:


> But is anybody checking for antibodies? That seems relevant and at this point testing is available, right? I’m not in any hurry for shot 4. I’d Like to know what my antibodies count is though.


Antibodies are "easily" measureable so they are measured. But other factors (T cells?) also effect your outcome, also raised by infection and vax but harder to measure.

You might have low antibodies, but still be pretty good to go. I think.

Whenever I get a headache I think I have covid. Then when it's gone in a few hours, I'm like YEA I BEAT IT! 

🤠


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Antibodies are "easily" measureable so they are measured. But other factors (T cells?) also effect your outcome, also raised by infection and vax but harder to measure.


T-cells can be measured. But knowing a measurement number is different from knowing what level is useful. T-cells and B-cells are directly related to generating new antibodies as I understand it.

Fair to say that with Omicron having only become dominant in the last few months, research has yet to catch up. Here are some articles related to T-cells but they were done mostly before the beginning of 2022 when Omicron started spreading widely in the USA and other countries around the world.

October 2021








mRNA vaccine-induced T cells respond identically to SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern but differ in longevity and homing properties depending on prior infection status - PubMed


While mRNA vaccines are proving highly efficacious against SARS-CoV-2, it is important to determine how booster doses and prior infection influence the immune defense they elicit, and whether they protect against variants. Focusing on the T cell response, we conducted a longitudinal study of...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





February 2022








The T cell immune response against SARS-CoV-2 - Nature Immunology


Paul Moss reviews the current knowledge of T cell immunity in the control of SARS-CoV-2.




www.nature.com





April 2022








Disentangling the relative importance of T cell responses in COVID-19: leading actors or supporting cast? - Nature Reviews Immunology


Understanding of the role of T cells in SARS-CoV-2 infection is of great importance for the design of next-generation vaccines. In this Perspective, Davenport and colleagues discuss the challenges in determining a causal relationship between vaccine-induced T cell immunity and protection from...




www.nature.com


----------



## raisingarizona

jamesdeluxe said:


> Didn't you catch the current variant recently?


I think so or I thought so. I had covid again in the first week of February. First time was January of 2020. Still, being exposed as much as possible probably helps that immunity response imho.


----------



## Country Gun

Brownski said:


> But is anybody checking for antibodies? That seems relevant and at this point testing is available, right? I’m not in any hurry for shot 4. I’d Like to know what my antibodies count is though.


Donate blood to the Red Cross and they will give you the results.
My wife still in the highest antibody group , plasma can help Covid patients, 6 months since she had it.


----------



## snoloco

"New normal" now apparently means mass shootings every other week.


----------



## MC2

snoloco said:


> "New normal" now apparently means mass shootings every other week.


Oh yeah, no way that the discussion that comes after this post this becomes political 🙄.


----------



## wonderpony

New normal means an office mate who has two COVID positive kids at home, is testing negative with home tests, comes to work, and then tests positive with a real test.

I have done two at home tests, two real tests and cancelled plans because of this.


----------



## sibhusky

I got shot 4. Easiest one yet. Had maybe a half day of being tired.

My husband is postponing his until it's closer to the date of our daughter's wedding, but I'm gambling that the variant specific ones will be coming out by then and I'll get one of those as well. I think he's starting to push his luck as it's been 7 months.

The daughter and her fiance both just had COVID even though they were vaccinated and boosted. He was sick maybe a day. The problem was he couldn't skip work, so told people he had it, wore a mask, and told them to stay away. She of course had it pretty rough, but works from home, so also didn't miss work.... Much. I'm postponing allowing them to visit for a couple more weeks as they got it from friends who were supposedly no longer contagious and had tested negative.


----------



## MarzNC

What's driving the current increase in detected cases is a sub-variant of Omicron. The proportion of common variants varies by region. In NC, BA.2 was over 70% of the sequenced cases by April and about 90% by early May. NC wastewater stats started going up in mid-April after staying very low all of March 2022. Memorial Day weekend is likely to generate a small spike.









COVID Data Tracker


CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



covid.cdc.gov


----------



## G.ski

Tjf1967 said:


> Really. What has been done to them? Maybe you should write a letter to president Xi.


This is what was done to our young people:



			Yes, We Have to Point Fingers Over COVID ‘Learning Loss’
		


If you don't think it's an outrage, then:

A) you are a parent who does not care about your kids.
B) you don't have kids and should keep your mouth shut.
C) you're just an asshole.

Yes, your flippant post pissed me off enough that I remembered you when I read the results of the study over learning loss. Harvey, no need to ban me I'm gone again. Peace all, out.


----------



## jimmypete

I don't understand, it's easy to look back at the miss-steps, but remember back when COVID first raised it's ugly head, it was new and quite deadly, no real treatments, hospitals clogged, as it was the USA had one of the worst responses in the developed world, it's easy now with vaccines and treatments, somewhat of a herd immunity to moan, but those charged with trying to keep us safe did the best they knew how.


----------



## Harvey

Don't totally get the anger, but there is some history there.

For me outrage isn't the word. IMO we're humans on a planet doing the best we can. Sometimes we fuck up. I care about my kid, so I guess I' m an asshole.

No doubt my teen paid a big price for covid lockdowns. Before the pandemic we worked really hard to move past some big issues, and felt we were in the clear. Covid brought it all back.

I kind of agree with Jimmy, nobody really knew what to do. Sure, mistakes were made. What would I have done if I was in charge? No idea.

I locked this thread, not because I perceived trouble, I just kind of felt "new normal" is over. To a large extent many of us are back to normal, and it is different than before, but somehow it just feels over to me.

I'll keep this locked for now, but as a kind of informal poll, like this post if you agree it should be closed, thumbs down if you think it should be unlocked.


----------



## snoloco

I'm much more likely to forgive mistakes that were made early on when we knew very little. The problem was that those mistakes were perpetuated for more than 2 years, after we knew much more, I believe largely for political reasons. This was totally unnecessary, and caused many to distrust public health.


----------



## Harvey

My bad I thought this was locked.


----------

