# Detachable vs Fixed Grip Lifts



## Harvey

Where do we really need high speed lifts?

What problem are these lifts solving?


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## x10003q

Harvey said:


> I'm not a fan of the Hunter Six. It' makes a 90 degree turn which is a little odd, to me.
> 
> What problem are these lifts solving?


Marketing


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## MarzNC

Benny Profane said:


> How do these things react to cross winds?


The chairs are very heavy. I think at Big Sky that was one reason to go in that direction. They also have a similar design 6-pack on the upper mountain. Wind is more of a problem there than for Ramcharger 8.


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I'm not a fan of the Hunter Six. It' makes a 90 degree turn which is a little odd, to me.


A few quad lifts at Snowbird make a 90-degree turn. Does feel odd, but it works fine.


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## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Marketing


In my opinion it's the only plausible answer.


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## Brownski

A resort owner once told me that having a “high speed” lift listed for your hill equated to a 20% increase in ticket sales.


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## Milo Maltbie

All the new high speed/high capacity lifts are great for skiers who want to do laps on groomers, but my favorite rides have always been limited capacity lifts. The MRG single, Castlerock double, the old Rendezvous Bowl J bar, Hickory Hill, the Lone Peak tram and the Highland Bowl and Tucker snow cats. Not one of those places would be improved by replacing those witha high speed 6 pack. Unforunately, the economics of the industry, especially in the West, are that the approvals for the right of way are the largest cost of building a lift, so a high speed heated octuple bubble lift costs only about 5% more than a T bar on the same line. That's why you are seeing fewer but bigger lifts.

mm


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## MiSkier

Harvey said:


> In my opinion it's the only plausible answer.


In the case at Boyne the 8 person lift will be replacing two triple lifts. I did read where due to a lot less chairs the uphill capacity will not be much different. But I also know it a marketing thing


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## MiSkier

I will have pics in the 22/23 ski season. As long as Covid doesn’t delay things


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## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> A resort owner once told me that having a “high speed” lift listed for your hill equated to a 20% increase in ticket sales.


A mountain manager once told me the the most common complaint on powder days was that they don't groom enough. Clearly different skiers have different opinions about what makes skiing enjoyable.

mm


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## MiSkier

Brownski said:


> A resort owner once told me that having a “high speed” lift listed for your hill equated to a 20% increase in ticket sales.


When your run is only 30-60 seconds long or 2,000’ long, the less time on a lift the better. At Boyne the old lifts the 8 pack is replacing took around 10 mins to get you to the top. The new lift will around 3 mins


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## Harvey

Personally I'd rather wait on the lift than standing in line, even before covid.

Someone who knows tell me:

Does speeding up the lift and/or increasing uphill capacity increase trail crowding or lift lines? Or both?


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## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> I also found it interesting that it changes the dynamic of chairlift conversations by having 2 or more groups. Slow cold chairs keep things real.


Sometimes real and sometimes real weird.


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## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> Personally I'd rather wait on the lift than standing in line, even before covid.


I'd rather wait on a lift line and have a good experience on the hill than be instantly transported to a crowded Catskills groomer. Thre's no point in transferring the obnoxious crowds from the bottom to the top of the trails.



Harvey said:


> Does speeding up the lift and/or increasing uphill capacity increase trail crowding or lift lines? Or both?


Compare Hunter or Windham to MRG or Castlerock. Hunter was better with nothing but doubles. 

mm


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## raisingarizona

Milo Maltbie said:


> A mountain manager once told me the the most common complaint on powder days was that they don't groom enough. Clearly different skiers have different opinions about what makes skiing enjoyable.
> 
> mm


Those aren’t skiers, those are tourists.


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## raisingarizona

Milo Maltbie said:


> I'd rather wait on a lift line and have a good experience on the hill than be instantly transported to a crowded Catskills groomer. Thre's no point in transferring the obnoxious crowds from the bottom to the top of the trails.
> 
> 
> Compare Hunter or Windham to MRG or Castlerock. Hunter was better with nothing but doubles.
> 
> mm


Hunter on a weekend ain’t really skiing. It’s insanity.


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## raisingarizona

HS lifts can be a beautiful thing. It’s especially true if you live in a town with a local hill, it’s a regular thing for locals to free up a few hours during their work day to get in a few hot laps.


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## Milo Maltbie

raisingarizona said:


> Those aren’t skiers, those are tourists.


Don't dis those people. They are the ones paying the rent and making the bar fun when the lifts close. And we all started there.

mm


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## MiSkier

raisingarizona said:


> HS lifts can be a beautiful thing. It’s especially true if you live in a town with a local hill, it’s a regular thing for locals to free up a few hours during their work day to get in a few hot laps


HS lifts are a nice thing IMO in Michigan, but when I went back and skied Plattekill the fixed lifts there did not bug me at all. I think some of that is how long it takes to get down the run


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## Benny Profane

x10003q said:


> Marketing


Yup.


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## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> A resort owner once told me that having a “high speed” lift listed for your hill equated to a 20% increase in ticket sales.


and 80% less fresh tracks. The Big Sky HS6 Marz mentioned replaced a fixed grip triple in the Bowl. There was way more powder and the tram line much shorter with the old lift. The old triple was also prone to mechanical failures. When it broke down you could be stuck on “tram island”, a crazy phenomenon to experience, where you ski the Big Couloir or First Gully to Cron’s back to the tram. You could do laps with no line since the rest of the mountain couldn’t get there.

Ah, the good ole days,

I’ve heard stories of how it was even better back in the day before the chair and the tram were there. From the top of the old gondola, a snowcat took you up the bowl and you hiked to the peak.

I understand improvements have to be made but they don’t always make for a better ski experience. Now they need the high speeds to meet the demand due to Ikon.

Boyne is an amazing enterprise. I had the great privilege of knowing Everett Kircher who started it all. His sons John and Stephen have done a great job living up to his legacy. A high speed lift on a small hill definitely makes sense. 8 just seems silly to me, maybe because it is.


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## x10003q

All those commenting on how they prefer slow lifts have forgotten about skiing when the only choice was slow, low capacity lifts. For those of us on the East coast, it wasn't just standing in line for 20 minutes, it was also freezing to death (even when wearing the supplied wool poncho blankets) on a 20 minute ride up the mountain with multiple stops *after* standing around freezing at the base for 20 minutes. I am so thrilled to now have HS lifts so I can SKI, not stand around freezing and then sit on a chair for the better part of an hour. I love skiing, I can stand and sit anywhere.

By having HS lifts at most major ski areas, we can now experience a nostalgia party at Smugglers Notch and MRG. For a day or two, you can pretend that the old school lifts are better. Decades ago there where no choices, we had to endure the waiting and long rides at every area and it sucked.


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## Harvey

The high speed lifts I ride regularly are two of the lifts at Gore (Gondi and BRQ) and the fixed chairs are at Plattekill, McCauley, Snow Ridge. I like BRQ, great terrain, for me. I never find myself thinking I am cold or whatever. I also never find myself considering the lifts when deciding where to go.

Sometime I do go to a lift served ski area vs skiing in the woods, because there are lifts. I guess that is somewhat the same.

That one Smuggs chair does take forever, but it leads to nirvana.

Be interesting to see who does more "waiting" (line plus lift ride) in an average day, you at Stratton or me at Plattekill.


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Personally I'd rather wait on the lift than standing in line, even before covid.


That may make sense on a busy weekend. But midweek at a small hill, riding 12 min for a 2 min run gets old really fast. That was the case for Sugar in NC before they replaced the original double that was 50 years old with a HS quad a few years ago. I skied at Berkshire East one morning on the way to Boston. Same situation. Luckily I connected with the only adult skiing that morning who wasn't with the race club kids. So had good conversations on the lift rides.

Jiminy Peak invested in a HS6 in 2000. It serves roughly 80% of the terrain, all ability levels. Also runs during the off-season on weekends. Having a short ride to the top makes for a very fun morning for locals as well as travelers who can ski midweek. For their primary market in terms of people who actually spend money on more than a season pass, my guess is that the HS6 was a worthwhile upgrade.


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## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> But midweek at a small hill, riding 12 min for a 2 min run gets old really fast.


I must be doing something wrong. I'm rarely dissatisfied with skiing.

How long do the Plattekill lifts take? I just don't get impatient there. 

When you guys stop for a break on the way down (if you do) is that enjoyment, or does that get old really fast?

When you are an oddball, there are some advantages.


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## ScottySkis

Platy quick 10 minutes I guess


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## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> The Big Sky HS6 Marz mentioned replaced a fixed grip triple in the Bowl. There was way more powder and the tram line much shorter with the old lift. The old triple was also prone to mechanical failures. When it broke down you could be stuck on “tram island”, a crazy phenomenon to experience, where you ski the Big Couloir or First Gully to Cron’s back to the tram. You could do laps with no line since the rest of the mountain couldn’t get there.
> 
> Ah, the good ole days,
> 
> I’ve heard stories of how it was even better back in the day before the chair and the tram were there. From the top of the old gondola, a snowcat took you up the bowl and you hiked to the peak.
> 
> I understand improvements have to be made but they don’t always make for a better ski experience. Now they need the high speeds to meet the demand due to Ikon.
> 
> Boyne is an amazing enterprise. I had the great privilege of knowing Everett Kircher who started it all. His sons John and Stephen have done a great job living up to his legacy. A high speed lift on a small hill definitely makes sense. 8 just seems silly to me, maybe because it is.


Boyne Resorts has had a lot of patience after buying Big Sky in 1976. Back in the good ole days, I assume finding a flight to Bozeman wasn't that easy. Weren't many options when I went the first time in 2011. If the skier visit numbers were the same in 2019-20 than 1979-80 or even 1999-2000, the long term vision Everett Kircher had when he bought Big Sky wouldn't be happening. Quite a family for sure.

Alta used to have less people tracking up Ballroom after a powder storm too. The old Alta lifts were slow and cold when it was windy.

I noticed that Boyne Mountain is going to build a sky bridge. They know how popular the sky bridge is in Gatlinburg, TN. The money made from the original chairlift Kircher installed there in 1953-54 provided funding for ski resort development in the early years. Can make a good profit when running a lift year round where it doesn't snow.


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## Harvey

ScottySkis said:


> Platy quick 10 minutes I guess


I googled it couldn't find it. Texted Laz he said 7 minutes and something.


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I must be doing something wrong. I'm rarely dissatisfied with skiing.
> 
> How long do the Plattekill lifts take? I just don't get impatient there.
> 
> When you guys stop for a break on the way down (if you do) is that enjoyment, or does that get old really fast?
> 
> When you are an oddball, there are some advantages.


I don't ski that fast and I don't track vertical. In fact, at a small hill like Massanutten I make lots of turns to make a run last longer. I used to have to stop on the blacks on the upper mountain once or twice to reset, but haven't needed to do that for the last 10 years or so. Skiing solo for 10-min laps that are a 7-min lift ride and at most a 3-min run is hard to do for more than an hour or so before I want to take a break and go inside. Doing the same at Jiminy Peak means a 4-min lift ride and a 3-4 min run, so I get in a lot more time on snow in an hour. Also means I don't get as cold since I'm moving more than sitting. So given a choice, I prefer a ski area with a high-speed lift.

That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the day I skied solo at Plattekill on a Friday in March.

Lift rides that access blue/black terrain are typically 5-10 min, with 7-8 being fairly common. A few of the destination resorts out west have lift ride times and length on the trail map. Sometimes I time the primary lift at a small mountain when I go exploring. Doesn't seem to matter if it's a HS4, fixed-grip quad, fixed triple, or a double installed decades ago. Few people want to be on a lift more than 10 min. Not sure any old lifts that are 12+ min are still around.


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## Harvey

I find on the BRQ at Gore, if it is zero or below, the lift makes me cold.


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## x10003q

Harvey said:


> The high speed lifts I ride regularly are two of the lifts at Gore (Gondi and BRQ) and the fixed chairs are at Plattekill, McCauley, Snow Ridge. I like BRQ, great terrain, for me. I never find myself thinking I am cold or whatever. I also never find myself considering the lifts when deciding where to go.


Thanks for proving my point. We no longer have to think about lift lines at Gore because all the lifts are high speed/high capacity. Prior to the HS3 at Gore in 1984, all the lift lines (all doubles except for the red gondola) on the weekends were horrible. Plattekill/McCauley/Snow Ridge are so far off the radar plus short lift length that they do not have the need for high capacity lifts.


Harvey said:


> Sometime I do go to a lift served ski area vs skiing in the woods, because there are lifts. I guess that is somewhat the same.
> 
> That one Smuggs chair does take forever, but it leads to nirvana.


or it can lead to the more common East coast icy skiing after the 40 minutes of waiting.


Harvey said:


> Be interesting to see who does more "waiting" (line plus lift ride) in an average day, you at Stratton or me at Plattekill.


You are going to compare crowded Stratton, where the number of skier visits during 2 non-holiday weekends will exceed Plattekill's entire season number of skier visits? How about we compare apples to apples - Where am I going to get more skiing in - Saddleback, where they just installed a new HSQ or Plattekill? The answer is Saddleback.

FYI - There are plenty of weekend mornings or late afternoons where I can get the equivalent of an "entire days skiing at Plattekill" at Stratton in about 2 hours.


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## Ripitz

I grew up skiing Stratton in the eighties with its classic trails. When they built the Starship and I rode it for the first time I was appalled. Haven’t been back since.


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## sig

i am in no hurry to get up the mountain. I have a limited number on runs in me and am gassed after 4 hours. would rather enjoy a run with less people on the trail.


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## Benny Profane

Milo Maltbie said:


> A mountain manager once told me the the most common complaint on powder days was that they don't groom enough. Clearly different skiers have different opinions about what makes skiing enjoyable.
> 
> mm


Soon they're going to be hearing a lot of complaints about awful food service and lifts not running and chaotic parking and slow shuttles and dirty lodges and rooms because they didn't invest in the real problem of affordable housing for their staffs. Maybe this season.


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## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Thanks for proving my point. We no longer have to think about lift lines at Gore because all the lifts are high speed/high capacity. Prior to the HS3 at Gore in 1984, all the lift lines (all doubles except for the red gondola) on the weekends were horrible. Plattekill/McCauley/Snow Ridge are so far off the radar plus short lift length that they do not have the need for high capacity lifts.
> 
> or it can lead to the more common East coast icy skiing after the 40 minutes of waiting.
> 
> You are going to compare crowded Stratton, where the number of skier visits during 2 non-holiday weekends will exceed Plattekill's entire season number of skier visits? How about we compare apples to apples - Where am I going to get more skiing in - Saddleback, where they just installed a new HSQ or Plattekill? The answer is Saddleback.
> 
> FYI - There are plenty of weekend mornings or late afternoons where I can get the equivalent of an "entire days skiing at Plattekill" at Stratton in about 2 hours.


All the lifts at Gore are HS?

Gore is the only place I wait. I admit it's not bad if you get there early because you can mostly avoid the HS chairs if you do arrive early. The BRQ is the HS chair without lines because of the dreaded (prized!) traverse. That's why it's my favorite HS chair in NY. Nobody uses it.

I do agree that Gore has shorter lines than it used to.

I think you cherry picked my point. You are saying you can't compare Stratton to Plattekill because they have so many more skiers. I'm saying the same thing.

For me at Plattekill the whole day is "skiing." Meaning I enjoy the whole day.

We are coming at this from such a different place I think we have to agree to disagree.


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## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> Where am I going to get more skiing in -


More skiing or better skiing? I think there is a quality verses quantity theme going on here. If more is better would the skiing be better at Platty if the lifts were high speed?


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## x10003q

Harvey said:


> All the lifts at Gore are HS?


read what I wrote - High Speed/High CAPACITY - all those FG Quads are high capacity - they eat crowds


Harvey said:


> Gore is the only place I wait. I admit it's not bad if you get there early because you can mostly avoid the HS chairs if you do arrive early. The BRQ is the HS chair without lines because of the dreaded (prized!) traverse. That's why it's my favorite HS chair in NY. Nobody uses it.
> 
> I do agree that Gore has shorter lines than it used to.


Gore has zero lines when compared to the days of the double chairlift. The High Peaks, Straight Brook, North, Ad Express were all doubles at one time.


Harvey said:


> I think you cherry picked my point. You are saying you can't compare Stratton to Plattekill because they have so many more skiers. I'm saying the same thing.


No - you are comparing an out of the way, small day area that is only open 3 days a week to one of the most popular ski areas in the East.


Harvey said:


> For me at Plattekill the whole day is "skiing." Meaning I enjoy the whole day.


Stop it. You are not the only person who loves skiing at off the radar areas or any ski areas for that matter.


Harvey said:


> We are coming at this from such a different place I think we have to agree to disagree.


Nah. I have just as much fun skiing at Plattekill as you do. I also have fun skiing at Stratton. Maybe you need to try Stratton before you look down at it from your lofty perch.


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## Ripitz

Don’t do it Harv. Don’t sell your soul!


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## Brownski

You know I’m as willing as anybody to make jokes about Stratton or Okemo but it’s true that there is decent skiing to be found at those places. And as much as I believe that they have too much lift capacity for their acreage, they have just the right amount of lift capacity for the huge number of people that show up on a typical weekend. I think that’s why Boyne is installing this lift. The people are showing up so they need to get them up the hill somehow.


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## sig

Ripitz said:


> Don’t do it Harv. Don’t sell your soul!


I have friends who love stratton. i don't get it but to each its own. i like heading to BRQ before first run. the traverse gets the blood flowing and loosens joints.


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## sig

Brownski said:


> You know I’m as willing as anybody to make jokes about Stratton or Okemo but it’s true that there is decent skiing to be found at those places.


spent time at each when my kids where smaller. actually use to do long weekends at okemo with other families, has a great bar in parking lot. there is good terrain at both.


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## MarzNC

Another example of a small mountain that completely changed the experience by replacing an old double with a HS6 is Timberline in WV. Given it's location, which is 3-4 hours from Pittsburgh, DC, Richmond, Timberline is never going to attract that many people who would rather drive farther to stay at Snowshoe. Snowshoe is comparable to Stratton for the purposes of this thread since it's a destination resort on Ikon with lots of slopeside lodging. The people who ski at Timberline like the option of a long green, steepish blues for the southeast, plus bumps and trees for the adventurous. The new owners spent big bucks on a HS6 and a good quad for easier terrain. Since the HS6 serves 100% of the terrain, being able to ride 4 min to the top instead of 12 min (if you were lucky, 15 min was common) is a game changer. A run at Timberline takes about the same amount of time as a typical run at Plattekill.

I made the drive to ski Timberline once under the old ownership. Combined it with a day at Snowshoe. Took a friend who had never skied outside of VA before. Even though we skied fresh snow and she got to experience 5 inches of powder for the first time, the experience wasn't worth a return visit. The slow lift ride with cold wind at the top was a factor. Last season with the new HS6 I did two day trips (2.5 hour 1-way from Massanutten). Second time I went solo because I had so much fun the first time. Planning to go again. Everyone on DCSki who went last season is looking forward to skiing there again.


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## MarzNC

I expect the managers at Boyne Mountain know their market pretty well. It's a 4-season resort with a golf course and a water park. Converted fields originally set up for soccer camps to lacrosse in recent years. From Wikipedia: "Between 1947 and 1992, Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands innovated in chairlifts, creating the world's first triple chairlift (1963), world's first quad chairlift (1965) and the US's first six-passenger chairlift (1992). " There are four terrain parks.

Very different from an old school ski area like Plattekill or Magic. Probably has more in common with Jiminy Peak and Massanutten . . . or Stratton.


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## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> I must be doing something wrong. I'm rarely dissatisfied with skiing.
> 
> How long do the Plattekill lifts take? I just don't get impatient there.
> 
> When you guys stop for a break on the way down (if you do) is that enjoyment, or does that get old really fast?
> 
> When you are an oddball, there are some advantages.


I would get annoyed riding a slow fixed grip to rip straight down the front fall line trails if they were groomed. That’s why Plattekill needs bumps, it makes the wait more worth it.

I love a HS chair for doing hot laps. Does the mountain get tracked out faster? Sure but you can get more of it in the first hour or two if you know how to hustle and the rest of your day is for trees and mogul skiing.

The appropriate type of lift I think is extremely situational. There’s a lot of factors determining what may be the best choice for any said lift or pod. Variables get more complex looking at slow periods verse busy periods.


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## raisingarizona

15 minutes is too long imho.

Before we got snowmaking and the new lifts there was a season of so so conditions and every time I went up I’d ride the old Agassiz chair up to the top and after a few times of poor snow conditions I didn’t want to go back anymore. The chair ride was painful for meager skiing, the next season I decided not to buy a pass. 

So, there ya go, it’s not just for marketing. 

I’ve been skiing for 35 years and skied a shit ton, I know what I like and don’t enjoy spending money on what I don’t like.


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## Ripitz

I like them all but full disclosure, the lift I spent the most time on last year was the very necessary high speed 8 passenger Catskill Thunder?


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## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> More skiing or better skiing? I think there is a quality verses quantity theme going on here. If more is better would the skiing be better at Platty if the lifts were high speed?


As I said in my post, Platty has short chairs that perfectly serve the mountain. The double is about 3000 ft in length. There is no need for high speed lifts.

I rode many 5000ft to 7000ft long fixed grip doubles. The high speed lifts were a godsend for these long lifts. Now, even a packed corral might only be an 8 minute wait and the lift time is 5-8 minutes with few stops because loading and loading is easier vs 40 minutes of waiting and riding in the old days on a double.

This is not quality vs quantity - it is skiing vs waiting and sitting.


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## Harvey

x10003q said:


> read what I wrote - High Speed/High CAPACITY - all those FG Quads are high capacity - they eat crowds
> 
> Gore has zero lines when compared to the days of the double chairlift. The High Peaks, Straight Brook, North, Ad Express were all doubles at one time.
> 
> No - you are comparing an out of the way, small day area that is only open 3 days a week to one of the most popular ski areas in the East.
> 
> Stop it. You are not the only person who loves skiing at off the radar areas or any ski areas for that matter.
> 
> Nah. I have just as much fun skiing at Plattekill as you do. I also have fun skiing at Stratton. Maybe you need to try Stratton before you look down at it from your lofty perch.


TLDR I skied at Stratton once. It was awesome. Nice low angle trees.


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## Brownski

Theres a thread in the archives someplace where Sno did the math for a bunch of resorts to figure out a skier density score- basically acreage divided by the lifts’ theoretical uphill capacity. He more or less nailed it. The resorts with the higher scores were the ones everybody thinks of as being crowded. Standing on line does suck for sure but so do overcrowded slopes.


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## Harvey

Every chair full, slopes wide open. Can't see it but 4 chair wait at the bottom.




The day after Riley


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## Ripitz

Has there ever been a high speed double? ?


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## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> Has there ever been a high speed double? ?


This might be a detachable double. It's in Japan. Video is from 2011.


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## Harvey

Is there an off the radar ski area in the east with a high speed quad? Wildcat?

Does putting in a HS chair put you on the radar, eventually, automatically? Or do you somehow get on the radar and then you "need" a HSQ?


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## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> Has there ever been a high speed double? ?


Mad has a high speed single?


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## MarzNC

Waterville Valley comes to mind as having a good mix of lifts. The quad that goes almost to the summit is a HSQ. There is a relatively new T-bar at the summit that serves a few short, fun blues. It replaced a double-chair that was on wind hold too often. Instead of spending a few million on a HSQ for Green Mountain, they moved an old triple. Presumably that lift rarely has a long line on busy weekends. It's a slow ride but has great views, maybe 8 minutes. Serves classic New England narrow and curvy trails.

There was also a very slow triple from a secondary lodge to mid-mountain. That was too slow to be worth riding more than once. Sunnyside is going to be upgraded to a fixed-grip quad.

Waterville Valley is replacing the 1988 HSQ White Peaks Express with a HS6 bubble lift soon. First one by MND in the U.S. apparently. Even though WV doesn't have any actual slopeside lodging, it's still more of a "ski resort" than an old school ski area.


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## Brownski

Yeah, the single is fast for a fixed grip but it’s bad form to call a fixed grip high speed. Express and high speed are usually reserved for detachables


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## Harvey

Or the carpet loader at Greek!


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Is there an off the radar ski area in the east with a high speed quad? Wildcat?
> 
> Does putting in a HS chair put you on the radar, eventually, automatically? Or do you somehow get on the radar and then you "need" a HSQ?


The Wildcat Express HSQ detachable was installed in 1997. Cut the ride to 6 minutes for 2000 ft vertical over 6000 ft. Probably made a difference to locals and folks who drove up from Boston, but probably not to anyone else.


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## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Or the carpet loader at Greek!


I wasn’t gonna bring it up but yeah


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## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> The Wildcat Express HSQ detachable was installed in 1997. Cut the ride to 6 minutes for 2000 ft vertical over 6000 ft. Probably made a difference to locals and folks who drove up from Boston, but probably not to anyone else.


I think that HSQ at Wildcat is in a perfect spot for a HSQ.


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## Ripitz

Greylock has a high speed rope tow. 12.5 mph, faster than most detachables.


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Or the carpet loader at Greek!


Doesn't change the top speed of a fixed grip lift but usually means the lift doesn't end up stopping as often. Massanutten installed them on the base lifts that are used by beginners a while ago. Made a difference for the old Supreme triple at Alta for the intermediates. The advanced/expert old timers hated it because they didn't understand how to load and would sometimes end up off the end of the relatively short conveyor belt the first season. Of course, they also hate the extended HSQ that replaced the Supreme triple, but for different reasons.


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## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Doesn't change the top speed of a fixed grip lift but usually means the lift doesn't end up stopping as often. Massanutten installed them on the base lifts that are used by beginners a while ago. Made a difference for the old Supreme triple at Alta for the intermediates. The advanced/expert old timers hated it because they didn't understand how to load and would sometimes end up off the end of the relatively short conveyor belt the first season. Of course, they also hate the extended HSQ that replaced the Supreme triple, but for different reasons.


You can run it at top speed. I hate those things, they are somehow counter intuitive, to me.


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## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I think that HSQ at Wildcat is a perfect spot for it. It serves the whole mountain.


Yep, similar situation as Jiminy Peak and Timberline. Tricky part is when it goes on wind hold.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> You can run it at top speed. I hate those things, they are somehow counter intuitive, to me.


Get a 6yo to show you what to do. Preferably one who just finished ski school.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Wildcat





MarzNC said:


> wind hold


I remember about to load the 2 person gondola at Wildcat on a windy day and having to wait because the lift op was putting sandbags behind the seat for extra weight.?

I suppose that was a high speed double.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Get a 6yo to show you what to do. Preferably one who just finished ski school.


Or just avoid them. The only one I know about is at Greek. Who else has one?


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Or just avoid them. The only one I know about is at Greek. Who else has one?


Obviously easy for you to say given that you don't explore much for skiing. Okemo, Mt. Snow, Sugarloaf, have had them for 10 years or more. The new Bear Den quad will have conveyor loading. Probably most conveyor loading are on lifts used more by beginners/intermediates loading at a base, as opposed to mid-mountain lifts.

Since this is a thread about Boyne Mountain . . . there is conveyor loading there too.

In 2016, Liftblog noted that close to 60 lifts had conveyor loading. Peter included a list. They've been used in Europe since 1987.









The Loading Carpet Solution


This winter, 57 lifts in North America will feature loading conveyors, a higher number than ever before. Since the first carpets debuted in 1995, the technology has improved as resorts seek to inc…




liftblog.com


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> Greylock has a high speed rope tow. 12.5 mph, faster than most detachables.


Yeah, that thing is pretty awesome


----------



## Brownski

MarzNC said:


> Yep, similar situation as Jiminy Peak and Timberline. Tricky part is when it goes on wind hold.


Jiminy would have been better served by a quad. That place used to be really charming but it may as well be Hunter most Saturdays now


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Or just avoid them. The only one I know about is at Greek. Who else has one?


Berkshire East has one and it works perfectly there. The one at Greek was fine last year- way better than the first time I went there. Once the Lifties and skiers get used to them, there’s no problem.


----------



## MiSkier

MarzNC said:


> Obviously easy for you to say given that you don't explore much for skiing. Okemo, Mt. Snow, Sugarloaf, have had them for 10 years or more. The new Bear Den quad will have conveyor loading. Probably most conveyor loading are on lifts used more by beginners/intermediates loading at a base, as opposed to mid-mountain lifts.
> 
> Since this is a thread about Boyne Mountain . . . there is conveyor loading there too.
> 
> In 2016, Liftblog noted that close to 60 lifts had conveyor loading. Peter included a list. They've been used in Europe since 1987.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Loading Carpet Solution
> 
> 
> This winter, 57 lifts in North America will feature loading conveyors, a higher number than ever before. Since the first carpets debuted in 1995, the technology has improved as resorts seek to inc…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> liftblog.com


The Meadows quad has a conveyor loading belt. So for most people who ski Boyne the new lift will be nothing new to learn.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Obviously easy for you to say given that you don't explore much for skiing.


Double burn! I just don't care that much about variety.

It's true, i'm a carpet loading spaz who has only been on one or maybe two carpet loaders. Did Tuxedo Ridge have one?

60 lifts, is that 2% of the total in the US? If so I'll make it my new years resolution to improve.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Did Tuxedo Ridge have one?


no


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Jiminy would have been better served by a quad. That place used to be really charming but it may as well be Hunter most Saturdays now


I can imagine that Saturdays are too crowded. But having a HS6 is really nice midweek and during the off-season for weekend tourists. My first visit to Jiminy was with my non-skiing husband on the way back from Boston. I enjoyed chatting with all the local ladies I met one midweek morning. Happened to be five of them so we fit on one chair.

Other than old school ski areas like Plattekill, Catamount, or Berkshire East, is there any place in the Poconos, Catskills or Berkshires that is still "charming" on a Saturday?


----------



## Ripitz

MarzNC said:


> Other than old school ski areas like Plattekill, Catamount, or Berkshire East, is there any place in the Poconos, Catskills or Berkshires that is still "charming" on a Saturday?


Butternut?


----------



## Brownski

MarzNC said:


> Other than old school ski areas like Plattekill, Catamount, or Berkshire East, is there any place in the Poconos, Catskills or Berkshires that is still "charming" on a Saturday?


catamount for sure. Maybe Bousquet


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> Greylock has a high speed rope tow. 12.5 mph, faster than most detachables.


Jeez-us that thing must rip through gloves!


----------



## Brownski

raisingarizona said:


> Jeez-us that thing must rip through gloves!


It does. Heavy leather work gloves are mandatory. The club keeps a bunch of old Bousquet tow grippers on hand, enough for everybody. They're great.


----------



## raisingarizona

Milo Maltbie said:


> Don't dis those people. They are the ones paying the rent and making the bar fun when the lifts close. And we all started there.
> 
> mm


No dis, I love em. They keep the ski bum lifestyle alive! But……themes the facts.


----------



## Brownski

MarzNC said:


> having a HS6 is really nice midweek and during the off-season for weekend tourists.


I understand that it’s comfortable and fast and all but believe me when I say that it really ruined the skiing experience. When I started skiing there, they had a double and a triple that went to the top and that was nice. Did that double get uncomfortable on sub zero nights when it was storming, my jeans were wet and it stopped for five minutes halfway up? Yeah, absolutely, but you know, whatever. Except for a few choke points, Jiminy never felt crowded back then. When they added a fixed quad for the expert runs down the middle of the hill and another quad for the Widow White’s Peak expansion, it started to feel a little crowded on that side of the mountain. Holidays started to get a little crazy. When they replaced the original Riblet double with that six pack, it was all over. Now Jiminy may as well be Hunter or Windham. It didn’t used to be that way. It used to be cool. They could have at least just put in a HS quad. It still would have doubled the base-to-peak uphill capacity and it would be too many skiers on a busy weekend but, you know, can’t stop progress I guess.. They replaced a fixed grip Riblet double with a HS six pac. It’s the very definition of too much lift capacity for the terrain. Jiminy just isn’t big enough to absorb that lift. It never will be.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> I understand that it’s comfortable and fast and all but believe me when I say that it really ruined the skiing experience. When I started skiing there, they had a double and a triple that went to the top and that was nice. Did that double get uncomfortable on sub zero nights when it was storming, my jeans were wet and it stopped for five minutes halfway up? Yeah, absolutely, but you know, whatever. Except for a few choke points, Jiminy never felt crowded back then. When they added a fixed quad for the expert runs down the middle of the hill and another quad for the Widow White’s Peak expansion, it started to feel a little crowded on that side of the mountain. Holidays started to get a little crazy. When they replaced the original Riblet double with that six pack, it was all over. Now Jiminy may as well be Hunter or Windham. It didn’t used to be that way. It used to be cool. They could have at least just put in a HS quad. It still would have doubled the base-to-peak uphill capacity and it would be too many skiers on a busy weekend but, you know, can’t stop progress I guess.. They replaced a fixed grip Riblet double with a HS six pac. It’s the very definition of too much lift capacity for the terrain. Jiminy just isn’t big enough to absorb that lift. It never will be.


That’s pretty much what I'm talking about.

Somebody said up thread its nice to have a high speed 6 on a weekday. That's just the "unfortunate" waste. The owner spent 8 million on it so he could print money on the weekends.

When the terrain becomes the limiting factor im sure the mountain is more profitable. And less fun, for me.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Is there an off the radar ski area in the east with a high speed quad? Wildcat?
> 
> Does putting in a HS chair put you on the radar, eventually, automatically? Or do you somehow get on the radar and then you "need" a HSQ?


Gore


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Is there an off the radar ski area in the east with a high speed quad? Wildcat?
> 
> Does putting in a HS chair put you on the radar, eventually, automatically? Or do you somehow get on the radar and then you "need" a HSQ?


Burke - sorry, was this too long to read?


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Is there an off the radar ski area in the east with a high speed quad? Wildcat?
> 
> Does putting in a HS chair put you on the radar, eventually, automatically? Or do you somehow get on the radar and then you "need" a HSQ?


Saddleback


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Is there an off the radar ski area in the east with a high speed quad? Wildcat?
> 
> Does putting in a HS chair put you on the radar, eventually, automatically? Or do you somehow get on the radar and then you "need" a HSQ?


Belleayre


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Is there an off the radar ski area in the east with a high speed quad? Wildcat?
> 
> Does putting in a HS chair put you on the radar, eventually, automatically? Or do you somehow get on the radar and then you "need" a HSQ?


Attitash


----------



## raisingarizona

I gotta admit, Snowbowl may have gone overboard with their new lifts. The six pack to midway puts way too many people up there. When it’s busy it’s dangerous. I was hit twice last year. 

So yeah, they can be great but you can f things up with em too. I’m gonna refer back to my point earlier that there’s places and times they work and others maybe not so much. 

It is awesome when there aren’t many people on the hill but that’s becoming a lot harder to find these days. 

Last year I realized that I’m pretty much done skiing here. I need something new and exciting.


----------



## tirolski

sig said:


> i like heading to BRQ before first run. the traverse gets the blood flowing and loosens joints.


AE2 to twister then her little sister and release some speed to BRQ will get the blood flowin early too but don’t tell anybody.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Plattekill/McCauley/Snow Ridge are so far off the radar


Ok so we've got "so far off the radar" and "off the radar" which I assume is a bigger list. Are there other variations of off the radar?

In NY, who is on the radar? Hunter. Holiday Valley? Complete list please.

In VT who is on the radar?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Ok so we've got "so far off the radar" and "off the radar" which I assume is a bigger list. Are there other variations of off the radar?
> 
> In NY, who is on the radar? Hunter. Holiday Valley? Complete list please.
> 
> In VT who is on the radar?


Cell phone reception sucks in the daks, allegedly.
So there’s that.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> So yeah, they can be great but you can f things up with em too. I’m gonna refer back to my point earlier that there’s places and times they work and others maybe not so much.


I often hear that people want a HS lift on the North Side at Gore. They say it because it is really slow. Not sure, but I think they run it slow too.

Here's a question or seven.

Do high speed chairs attract more skiers?

If the answer is no, and every chair in the country was a high speed, would there be negative impacts beyond possibly profitability?

If yes, would trails, parking, lodges be more crowded, so you'd need more of all?

To RA's point where does it makes sense to add a HS lift? What are the criteria? Is it just long wait times at ski areas with uncrowded trails? Long wait times at ski areas that aren't profitable?

I do think the 3 HS lifts make Gore a better experience, but if you include their capex budget in the calculations are they profitable?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Do high speed chairs attract more skiers?


It can get more folks to the top faster, if they’re present.


Harvey said:


> If the answer is no, and every chair in the country was a high speed, would there be negative impacts beyond possibly profitability?
> 
> If yes, would trails, parking, lodges be more crowded, so you'd need more of all?


If more folks show up.
We all know places get busier because of good snow and nice weather (not counting holidays).


Harvey said:


> To RA's point where does it makes sense to add a HS lift? What are the criteria? Is it just long wait times at ski areas with uncrowded trails? Long wait times at ski areas that aren't profitable?


If the lift lines are too long and there is ample terrain to spread out the masses.


Harvey said:


> I do think the 3 HS lifts make Gore a better experience, but if you include their capex budget in the calculations are they profitable?


Ask their beanie counters.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Do high speed chairs attract more skiers?


For a 4-season resort like Boyne Mountain or Jiminy Peak, having a high speed chair with 4+ seats has value during the "green" seasons. $15+ for a ticket, usually weekends only. Would not get the same interest with a slow double/quad.



Harvey said:


> To RA's point where does it makes sense to add a HS lift? What are the criteria? Is it just long wait times at ski areas with uncrowded trails? Long wait times at ski areas that aren't profitable?


Had Timberline in WV upgraded to a fixed-grip quad instead of a HS6, not sure the buzz around DC would be nearly as enthusiastic for making the 2-3 hour drive for day trips on weekends. The place will never get that busy, just because of the location. Will be more obvious how crowded the trails will be on Saturdays after the 2021-22 season since there were capacity limits for loading last season, which was the first under the new owners.


----------



## raisingarizona

Is covid going away and the wfh crowd going back to the office? 

One thought is that it’s more ideal if you have an ample sized unloading area and at least 3-4 equally popular trails leaving directly from the top terminal. As far as capacity is concerned, that can be adjusted with the spacing of the chairs.


----------



## Ripitz

There is high speed and then there is high speed 8. It’s only needed and fully loaded during the busiest times. Really only a few days a year. The rest of the time it’s silly. As for negative impacts, my buddy sent me a video last year riding the Big Sky Ramcharger 8 by himself. Poor guy looked like he has no friends. Great way to make someone feel extra lonely.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Harvey said:


> Do high speed chairs attract more skiers?


Not directly. Indirectly they help with favorable lift lines. Lifts that attract non-Snoloco type of people are ones that are unique. The Peak-to-Peak gondola or the single chair, for instance.


Harvey said:


> Every chair in the country was a high speed, would there be negative impacts?


Nope, provided your downhill capacity matched uphill capacity. Fewer lower value liftie jobs, more higher value lift maintenance jobs.


Harvey said:


> To RA's point where does it makes sense to add a HS lift? What are the criteria?


Base areas at resorts where there are upper mountain lifts or back bowl lifts. Get people on the hill quickly during peak demand, e.g. 10:00. Or pods with sustained demand. Or somewhere there are lots of eyeballs for the impression of a modern set of facilities.


----------



## Brownski

A “high speed lift” - whether a 4, 6 or 8- does attract more skiers. Just like vertical, it’s an easy yardstick for casual customers. They see vertical over 1k and a bunch of detachable lifts and the take away is that it’s a big operation


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> There is high speed and then there is high speed 8. It’s only needed and fully loaded during the busiest times. Really only a few days a year. The rest of the time it’s silly. As for negative impacts, my buddy sent me a video last year riding the Big Sky Ramcharger 8 by himself. Poor guy looked like he has no friends. Great way to make someone feel extra lonely.


The busiest times are when they make their money so there is definitely a good argument for the 8 pack value. 

I’ve spent 5 months now in Caliente, Nevada so far this year and I gotta say……I love lonely ?


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> A “high speed lift” - whether a 4, 6 or 8- does attract more skiers. Just like vertical, it’s an easy yardstick for casual customers. They see vertical over 1k and a bunch of detachable lifts and the take away is that it’s a big operation


When we skied at Taos two years ago we mostly lapped the HS quad chairs.

I think our mindset was if you are going to travel and spend a bunch of money being there we wanted to get in as much skiing as possible. The two or three chair waits for a fast ride up made sense.

Taos is my favorite place to ski now since it has the terrain, good lifts and there’s practically no one there.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> I often hear that people want a HS lift on the North Side at Gore. They say it because it is really slow. Not sure, but I think they run it slow too.


This is an interesting debate. They run it slow for the many little kids/families/green skiers who use the lift. If it was a HSQ, it would always be easy to load and unload. That area is almost always underutilized. A HSQ would change that.


Harvey said:


> Here's a question or seven.
> 
> Do high speed chairs attract more skiers?


Absolutely.


Harvey said:


> If the answer is no, and every chair in the country was a high speed, would there be negative impacts beyond possibly profitability?
> 
> If yes, would trails, parking, lodges be more crowded, so you'd need more of all?


Ski areas with HS lifts generally attract more visitors. Gore and Burke (2 HSQs) prove that this is not always true. People forget that a FGQ can move the same amount of people as a HSQ.


Harvey said:


> To RA's point where does it makes sense to add a HS lift? What are the criteria? Is it just long wait times at ski areas with uncrowded trails? Long wait times at ski areas that aren't profitable?


The length, the number or trails and acreage served, the marketing effect. Stratton replaced its Snowbowl FGQ with a HSQ that has essentially the same capacity and the whole upper mountain at Stratton skis much better. People hated riding the Snowbowl FGQ because it was slow and you were exposed to a windy and cold area for longer. The new HSQ has drawn people away from the hyper crowded Ursa HS6.


Harvey said:


> I do think the 3 HS lifts make Gore a better experience, but if you include their capex budget in the calculations are they profitable?


The 3 HS lifts absolutely make Gore better. If Gore was privately owned, 3 high speed lifts might be light for its size. The Hudson Triple and even the Top Ridge Triple would be possible locations for HS lifts. Private ownership of Gore would want to have a much bigger lodge and parking at the base of the Ski Bowl. That would be a reason to have a HS lift in the Ski Bowl.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> The 3 HS lifts absolutely make Gore better. If Gore was privately owned, 3 high speed lifts might be light for its size. The Hudson Triple and even the Top Ridge Triple would be possible locations for HS lifts. Private ownership of Gore would want to have a much bigger lodge and parking at the base of the Ski Bowl. That would be a reason to have a HS lift in the Ski Bowl.


So without more terrain, more crowded.

Granted more snowmaking would help, you'd get more terrain certainly at Christmas, probably at MLK. Usually things are fully open by Presidents.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> So without more terrain, more crowded.


No, replacing a FGQ with a HSQ can keep the same capacity.
Adding a few more trails (including a green trail) to Burnt Ridge is how a normal ski area would work.


Harvey said:


> Granted more snowmaking would help, you'd get more terrain certainly at Christmas, probably at MLK. Usually things are fully open by Presidents.


Yes.


----------



## x10003q

raisingarizona said:


> Is covid going away and the wfh crowd going back to the office?


The WFH crowd is still WFH and will be for the near future. Even beyond, many businesses are offering full WFH. The issue for WFH near skiing is related to families with school age kids. Kids are back in school full time. Do you want to completely move to resort area schools or remain in your existing school system (and friends/sports/art/music/lifestyle)?


raisingarizona said:


> One thought is that it’s more ideal if you have an ample sized unloading area and at least 3-4 equally popular trails leaving directly from the top terminal. As far as capacity is concerned, that can be adjusted with the spacing of the chairs.


This!!!!


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> No, replacing a FGQ with a HSQ can keep the same capacity.


So doesn't shorten lift lines, just reduces ride time.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> So without more terrain, more crowded.


Belleayre is a great of example of how throwing in a high speed, high capacity lift brings crowds and dangerous trail conditions.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> When we skied at Taos two years ago we mostly lapped the HS quad chairs.
> 
> I think our mindset was if you are going to travel and spend a bunch of money being there we wanted to get in as much skiing as possible. The two or three chair waits for a fast ride up made sense.
> 
> Taos is my favorite place to ski now since it has the terrain, good lifts and there’s practically no one there.


Yep, lapping Lift 1 at Taos is a lot more fun now that it's a HS quad. I like the terrain over off Lift 8 but it's hard to justify staying there for more than a few runs since it's a long fixed-grip quad that's on the slow side.

Hard to compare a destination resort in the Rockies with a small mountain in the midwest, or anywhere on the east coast though. Different market, different snow conditions, different vertical and lift lengths.


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> Belleayre is a great of example of how throwing in a high speed, high capacity lift brings crowds and dangerous trail conditions.


Yes. The gondola might be an even better example than the Jiminy six pack. The Tomahawk used to be a refuge from the crowds.


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> No, replacing a FGQ with a HSQ can keep the same capacity.





Harvey said:


> So doesn't shorten lift lines, just reduces ride time.


That reminds me . . . when Alta replaced the old Supreme triple with a HS quad, the idea was that the spacing of chairs and speed would be adjusted so that the terrain would not be overloaded. Meaning they weren't planning on running the lift at max capacity. Definitely reduced ride time. Harder to compare lift lines because the new lift is much longer and starts at the mid-mountain lodge, Alf's, instead of higher up that took a little more effort to reach. Now ride fewer minutes for a longer run. Of course, the old timers who are lapping the steepest terrain complain because there is more of a run out than before.


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> So doesn't shorten lift lines, just reduces ride time.


It’s like old people’s diapers, depends.


----------



## raisingarizona

MarzNC said:


> Yep, lapping Lift 1 at Taos is a lot more fun now that it's a HS quad. I like the terrain over off Lift 8 but it's hard to justify staying there for more than a few runs since it's a long fixed-grip quad that's on the slow side.
> 
> Hard to compare a destination resort in the Rockies with a small mountain in the midwest, or anywhere on the east coast though. Different market, different snow conditions, different vertical and lift lengths.


Lift 1 laps are sick! Same for the Kachina Peak chair. Every lift there has fun stuff though.


----------



## Benny Profane

raisingarizona said:


> When we skied at Taos two years ago we mostly lapped the HS quad chairs.
> 
> I think our mindset was if you are going to travel and spend a bunch of money being there we wanted to get in as much skiing as possible. The two or three chair waits for a fast ride up made sense.
> 
> Taos is my favorite place to ski now since it has the terrain, good lifts and there’s practically no one there.


You should slow down and take a ski week there. Excellent school. Nobody is above it. And you may overestimate yourself by signing up for a 9 or 10 class


----------



## Benny Profane

So, I may have had my answer explained to me about whether or not these new 6 and 8 packs are more vulnerable to wind shutdowns. I was just listening to the new podcast from Storm Skiing/Stuart Winchester, an interview with the CEO of Aspen, Mike Kaplan, and he just replaced a high speed quad at Snowmass with a six pack, and said it may improve that chair's performance because it's heavier, therefore more stable in that exposed line. Huh.


----------



## snoloco

Normally speaking, bigger chairs perform better in high winds. Big Sky's Ramcharger 8 never went on wind hold its entire first season, and that even has a bubble. The chairs on that lift weigh about 2200 pounds each.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> So doesn't shorten lift lines, just reduces ride time.


High speed chairs absolutely reduce lines. If you have a high capacity need out of a base area you are going to max out the capacity to reduce the line and satisfy customers and get people out of the base area. Also, you are not always replacing a FGQ, sometimes it is an older double or triple getting replaced.

Replacing a FGQ with a HSQ in an out of the way pod, maybe you do not increase capacity, but you reduce ride time. That is huge. Let's face it, (in the East) some lifts are only crowded a few hours on the weekends and holidays. The rest of the time, the HS lift is reducing your time on the lift. If given a choice of HS vs FG, most people are going to ride a HS.

This is exactly what happened at Stratton when they replaced the Snow Bowl lift.


----------



## Ripitz

It’s amazing to think there was or is skiing of any consequence without these lifts.

I usually find it very easy to avoid crowds. When the lift runs slower than I can skin up ( West Point ) is when I get annoyed.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

snoloco said:


> Big Sky's Ramcharger 8 never went on wind hold its entire first season, and that even has a bubble. The chairs on that lift weigh about 2200 pounds each.


Truth....I helped put FGQ chairs on one fall in my early 20's. It took 4 of us everything we had to lift the damn things onto the haul rope. There were 3 groups of four as we had to have a few minutes to catch our breath. You would need a lift truck of some sort for a 6- or 8-pacm chair.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> High speed chairs absolutely reduce lines.


You said you could avoid trail crowding by spacing chairs to avoid increasing uphill capacity. Can' t have it both ways.

I bet that most of the time, the reason business people spend $XM on a HSQ is to make more money. They do that by putting more people on the hill.

Is it worth $XM to slow the chair down for beginners? Is there real ROI there?

How does the uphill capacity at Stratton compare to 1995? How much has the terrain grown?

Look it's all good, if ski areas don't make money they are toast. I'm just saying that if every chair becomes HS the owners are going to want to pay for that by putting more people on the hill. Some love it. The numbers say most do.

I'm in the minority. I like a more relaxed atmosphere and don't care at all about vertical feet per day. When you come from a nordic background, 2000 feet of vert is a decent day. Like if you do it up and down. The one day I was actually recorded with someone else (I forget who?) we did 22,000. We skied most of the day. Seemed like enough.

Maybe Broski was right, I'm a soulskier. Or maybe I'm just old. ?


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I bet that most of the time, the reason business people spend $8M on a HSQ is to make more money. They do that by putting more people on the hill.


Sort of. If the new people who show up because of a HSQ are beginners and intermediates, they may not ski as much as people who have been skiing that mountain for years. Depending on the layout, the more experienced skiers may be able to get away from the base quicker and then go where elsewhere while the less experienced people are slowly working their way down the groomed trails. The ski resort wants to sell more season passes, day tickets, and F&B. Folks who are less experienced need to take breaks more often. While some will be organized enough to break snacks, others will be spending money. Folks who are less experienced are also likely to be renting gear at the mountain. At least for the first few seasons before they get hooked.

Where do you get $8M from? What I remember from Waterville Valley is that the cost of a HSQ was going to be $2-3M.


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> It’s amazing to think there was or is skiing of any consequence without these lifts.


Sarcasm?


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Where do you get $8M from?


I made it up. I thought I'd read that the BRQ at Gore was 6m, I added something for inflation and helicopters. I'll edit my post to say $2m.

For some reason I thought they were more than that. How much is a 5000 foot FG? I assumed detachables were significantly more, or they'd be more widely used. If the fixed grip is 500k and the detach is 2M it's kind of a no-brainer for the owner I admit.


----------



## snoloco

With any lift, you have a theoretical capacity, and the actual throughput in normal operations. This takes into account the speed, loading efficiency, and stops or slow downs. A fixed grip quad might have a theoretical capacity of 2400, but it might not run at full speed, have bad loading efficiency, and frequent stops. That could mean your throughput is only 1500 or so. Meanwhile, a high speed quad with the same theoretical capacity might have a well managed queue for near perfect loading efficiency, run at full speed, and have few stops or slows. When ordering a lift, the resort can specify whatever capacity they want, but most choose to increase it when replacing a lift. When Stratton replaced Snow Bowl, the theoretical capacity increased from 2000 to 2400, but I think the throughput increased by at least 50%, because the old lift did not operate at anywhere near its theoretical capacity.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> With any lift, you have a theoretical capacity, and the actual throughput in normal operations. This takes into account the speed, loading efficiency, and stops or slow downs. A fixed grip quad might have a theoretical capacity of 2400, but it might not run at full speed, have bad loading efficiency, and frequent stops. That could mean your throughput is only 1500 or so. Meanwhile, a high speed quad with the same theoretical capacity might have a well managed queue for near perfect loading efficiency, run at full speed, and have few stops or slows. When ordering a lift, the resort can specify whatever capacity they want, but most choose to increase it when replacing a lift. When Stratton replaced Snow Bowl, the theoretical capacity increased from 2000 to 2400, but I think the throughput increased by at least 50%, because the old lift did not operate at anywhere near its theoretical capacity.


All very good points.

I read that A basin was adding a high speed lift or two and reducing skiers by limiting passes and tickets. Can't find the article.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> You said you could avoid trail crowding by spacing chair to avoid increasing uphill capacity. Can' t have it both ways.


Now you are just being obtuse. You *can* have it both ways. No 2 lifts are the same. It depends on a host of variables - location, length, useage, wind, cost, etc.


Harvey said:


> I bet that most of the time, the reason business people spend $8M on a HSQ is to make more money. They do that by putting more people on the hill.


 Gore has not put more people on the mountain despite adding Burnt Ridge and a massive upgrade of the Adr Express.


Harvey said:


> Is it worth $8M to slow the chair down for beginners? Is there real ROI there?


I did not realize all HS lifts were $8 million no matter what the variables.


Harvey said:


> How does the uphill capacity at Stratton compare to 1995? How much has the terrain grown?


probably 30% more uphill - 40% expansion of acreage - lots more on the map glades


Harvey said:


> Look it's all good, if ski areas don't make money they are toast. I'm just saying that if every chair becomes HS the owners are going to want to pay for that but putting more people on the hill. Some love it. The numbers say most do.
> 
> I'm in the minority. I like a more relaxed atmosphere and don't care at all about vertical feet per day.
> 
> I guess Broski was right, I'm a soulskier ?


Still up on that high horse I see


----------



## x10003q

snoloco said:


> With any lift, you have a theoretical capacity, and the actual throughput in normal operations. This takes into account the speed, loading efficiency, and stops or slow downs. A fixed grip quad might have a theoretical capacity of 2400, but it might not run at full speed, have bad loading efficiency, and frequent stops. That could mean your throughput is only 1500 or so. Meanwhile, a high speed quad with the same theoretical capacity might have a well managed queue for near perfect loading efficiency, run at full speed, and have few stops or slows. When ordering a lift, the resort can specify whatever capacity they want, but most choose to increase it when replacing a lift. When Stratton replaced Snow Bowl, the theoretical capacity increased from 2000 to 2400, but I think the throughput increased by at least 50%, because the old lift did not operate at anywhere near its theoretical capacity.


The throughput increased on the Snow Bowl lift at Stratton because people now use the replacement HSQ. That lift was ski right on 90% of the time.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Maybe Broski was right, I'm a soulskier.


I was probably being sarcastic when I said that. What’s the context?


----------



## snoloco

x10003q said:


> The throughput increased on the Snow Bowl lift at Stratton because people now use the replacement HSQ. That lift was ski right on 90% of the time.


I'm referring to the maximum throughput they could get with the old lift, not the line length. Clearly many more people use the new lift, since it's a much better experience. I never got to ride the old one because it seemed to be on wind hold more than it was open.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> I was probably being sarcastic when I said that. What’s the context?


I forget but i was probably being obtuse about high speed lifts.

Apologies to @MiSkier for totally hijacking his thread. It would be so much work to separate this out, but I should probably do it.


----------



## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> All very good points.
> 
> I read that A basin was adding a high speed lift or two and reducing skiers by limiting passes and tickets. Can't find the article.


Well, they're definitely reducing skier visits by getting off the EPIC pass, but just the opposite on lifts. They replaced the Pallavacini double chair with another new double, which I put in the same ballsy category as MRG replacing the single with a single. And the Pallavacini is right at the base. 99% of ski hill managers would have put a HSQ there. Maybe a six pack.

I think they are trying to be a niche mountain in a crowded market, and are going to compensate for less bodies on the hill with ever increasing pass prices.


----------



## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> Would love to see this chart for the east:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Golden Ratio Every Powder Chaser Needs to Know | Snow Schoolers
> 
> 
> Snow Schoolers is an online platform for private ski & snowboard lessons. Easily browse profiles & reviews, then book a private ski or snowboard lesson with our fleet of expert, certified instructors. We collaborate closely with each of our ski area partners to ensure a consistent brand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snowschoolers.com


Hmmm. Another factor that is hard to quantify is what I might call the gnar factor. Homewood is kinda flat and a little lame by Tahoe standards, so, not the first place the craven and slobbering powder chasers think of going to on a fresh morning, and they may have disregarded it when deciding on a season pass back in April. But that's been the criteria I've been using to choose one mountain over another, because I hate crowds on hills, too. Targhee over JH, Powder mountain over Snowbasin and most any SLC hill, Certainly Abasin over any other Summit county hill. Too bad, because I'm giving up better terrain (except for Abasin), but, what's the point when, like he says in the blog, the snow is gone in an hour. Now, this can work against you, if you decide on a mountain that schedules its lift openings, say, during the week, in anticipation of fewer skiers. I'm looking at you, Gore. I've told the story here of my "Yeah, but it's Tuesday" response at Gore to a one foot dump there ten years ago and an entire section of the hill was closed more than once. Problem is, I'll never go back there on a weekday because of that, therefore, less bodies for them. As though they care.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I forget but i was probably being obtuse about high speed lifts.
> 
> Apologies to @MiSkier for totally hijacking his thread. It would be so much work to separate this out, but I should probably do it.


Just pull out the posts after the last one related to Boyne and don't worry about the other posts mixed in the earlier pages.


----------



## MarzNC

Benny Profane said:


> Well, they're definitely reducing skier visits by getting off the EPIC pass, but just the opposite on lifts. They replaced the Pallavacini double chair with another new double, which I put in the same ballsy category as MRG replacing the single with a single. And the Pallavacini is right at the base. 99% of ski hill managers would have put a HSQ there. Maybe a six pack.
> 
> I think they are trying to be a niche mountain in a crowded market, and are going to compensate for less bodies on the hill with ever increasing pass prices.


As I remember Al was very clear about why the Pallavacini upgrade was another double.

However, Al just announced that the Lenawee triple will be replaced by a HSQ. That serves as direct access to terrain on both the frontside and backside of the upper mountain. Feels like it will make a difference in traffic flow in late season, especially after Colorado resorts start closing.









Arapahoe Basin to Build First Six Pack


Arapahoe Basin has reached a deal with its longtime lift supplier Leitner-Poma to replace the Lenawee Mountain triple next year. The mountain’s first six place chairlift will increase through…




liftblog.com


----------



## MarzNC

Benny Profane said:


> Targhee over JH, Powder mountain over Snowbasin and most any SLC hill, Certainly Abasin over any other Summit county hill.


Targhee has a HSQ as the primary base lift. It goes to a peak and serves a lot of terrain. Dreamcatcher's speed makes a big difference in clearing out a crowd on a powder Saturday. That's about the only time it really matters. I was there with my ski buddy (NYC transplant to NM long ago) on a Pres. Day weekend. 9+ inches of fresh fluffy powder after the lifts closed on Sat that was on top of a few feet of new snow in the week before. There was actually a lift line for Dreamcatcher until about 1:30pm.

From what I've read Indy Pass locations out west seem to be great examples of good terrain, empty slopes, and few HS lifts.

Bridger is an example of a mountain out west that invested in HS lifts quite a while ago. It's mostly caters to locals, unlike Big Sky an hour away. What's more unusual is that it's a non-profit. Has been for decades. Lift upgrades have been done slowly but deliberately in the last 20 years or so.


----------



## Benny Profane

Everyone who seriously skis should visit Bridger once. It's a fantastic example of community based socialism set in a pretty red place. I was very impressed with chairs and lodges and the people. Take one of the guides up for a free tour. They're there to do some time for a pass. They want to ski, too, not stand at the bottom.
Wear a beacon if you have one, even if it isn't deep. The serious chair requires a beacon, the only one I've heard of in my travels. They sell beacons in the ski shop.


----------



## MarzNC

Benny Profane said:


> Everyone who seriously skis should visit Bridger once. It's a fantastic example of community based socialism set in a pretty red place. I was very impressed with chairs and lodges and the people. Take one of the guides up for a free tour. They're there to do some time for a pass. They want to ski, too, not stand at the bottom.
> Wear a beacon if you have one, even if it isn't deep. The serious chair requires a beacon, the only one I've heard of in my travels. They sell beacons in the ski shop.


I always plan a few days at Bridger as part of a trip to Big Sky. Can have better powder than Big Sky because it's drier.

They also have a few beacons for rent at the Bridger shop. But on a powder day those run out. I was waiting to get some powder skis when the guy in front in line got the last one. Only problem was that he was supposed to get one for his ski buddy too.

Bozeman is a university town. Like Chapel Hill in NC, it's not exactly like the surrounding counties in terms of local "culture."

Bridger has upgraded lifts very deliberately. As a non-profit, they do not go into debt just to speed up installing a new lift. The Board takes the long term view. That's been working well for over 60 years.









Bridger Bowl Invests $5 Million to Transform Beginner Experience


Bridger Bowl is creating a first-rate learning center this fall, with four new lifts under construction to serve exclusively green terrain. Following years of attendance records and upper mou…




liftblog.com





By the way, @Harvey : Bridger has conveyor loading on six lifts. No high speed lifts, but also have been getting rid up the long, slow doubles.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> By the way, @Harvey : Bridger has conveyor loading on six lifts. No high speed lifts, but also have been getting rid up the long, slow doubles.



So you're saying I should go there to up my conveyor loading game?


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Would love to see this chart for the east:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Golden Ratio Every Powder Chaser Needs to Know | Snow Schoolers
> 
> 
> Snow Schoolers is an online platform for private ski & snowboard lessons. Easily browse profiles & reviews, then book a private ski or snowboard lesson with our fleet of expert, certified instructors. We collaborate closely with each of our ski area partners to ensure a consistent brand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snowschoolers.com


The golden ratio is how I decided on Big Sky when I first moved out West in ‘96. I also took into consideration proximity to large populations, lodging capacities. and affordability. A lot has changed since then. Snow quality and avalanche mitigation were also big factors.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> So you're saying I should go there to up my conveyor loading game?


You can practice conveyor loading at Whiteface this winter. Or come visit Massanutten when I'm there in January. Cannot leave the base without using conveyor loading. 

Go to Bridger if you want 2000 acres of a wide variety of terrain all served by fixed-grip lifts. There is no slopeside lodging. City limits is an easy 20-min drive. Quite a few tele skiers. I think you'd like the vibe.


----------



## MiSkier

Harvey said:


> I forget but i was probably being obtuse about high speed lifts.
> 
> Apologies to @MiSkier for totally hijacking his thread. It would be so much work to separate this out, but I should probably do it.


Harvey. Don’t worry about it. The only reason Boyne isn’t more of the discussion is I am the only one in Michigan or as far as I know I am. I do think a 8 pack is overkill for most of the season. They normally only run one of the triples during the week and only on weekends and holidays to they run both triples. They could have gone with a new fixed grip quad. but for marketing purposes and bragging rights in the Midwest they went for the 8 pack.


----------



## Benny Profane

MarzNC said:


> As I remember Al was very clear about why the Pallavacini upgrade was another double.
> 
> However, Al just announced that the Lenawee triple will be replaced by a HSQ. That serves as direct access to terrain on both the frontside and backside of the upper mountain. Feels like it will make a difference in traffic flow in late season, especially after Colorado resorts start closing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arapahoe Basin to Build First Six Pack
> 
> 
> Arapahoe Basin has reached a deal with its longtime lift supplier Leitner-Poma to replace the Lenawee Mountain triple next year. The mountain’s first six place chairlift will increase through…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> liftblog.com


Never forget that they are replacing two chairs, not one, with this move. The old Norway chair they took down wasn't the most modern thing, but was a nice supplement to Lanawee on weekends and crowded days. Then there's the more stable in wind thing. The chair is hanging over a high alpine bowl and drops skiers off at 12,600 or so.


----------



## MarzNC

MiSkier said:


> Harvey. Don’t worry about it. The only reason Boyne isn’t more of the discussion is I am the only one in Michigan or as far as I know I am. I do think a 8 pack is overkill for most of the season. They normally only run one of the triples during the week and only on weekends and holidays to they run both triples. They could have gone with a new fixed grip quad. but for marketing purposes and bragging rights in the Midwest they went for the 8 pack.


Is there any reason to use a lift over there during the summer?

Wonder if Boyne got a deal for making a commitment to three 8-packs from Dopplemayer: Big Sky, Loon, Boyne Mountain. The idea of installing an 8-pack at Big Sky goes all the way back to the 1990s.

March 2018








Boyne Resorts To Install North America’s First Eight-Seater Chairlift At Big Sky Resort


Boyne Resorts today unveiled an extraordinary addition to its collection of industry firsts, announcing installation of an eight-seater high-speed bubble chairlift at its Big Sky Resort in Montana—the first in North America.




newsroom.doppelmayr.com




_" . . .
For nearly 70 years, Boyne Resorts has maintained a heritage of firsts with planning and investment focused on enhancing the guest experience. Its history with Doppelmayr, the world leader in ropeway transportation, dates back to the 1980s and a collaborative relationship formed in 1992 when the two introduced the first high-speed six-place chairlift in the U.S. or Europe at Boyne Mountain Resort in Michigan. It was then that a joint ambition to create an eight-seater chairlift was first discussed.
. . ."_

January 2020








Announcing Kancamagus 8, the East’s First Eight Pack


Boyne Resorts will invest millions to build its third D-Line chairlift, an eight place at Loon Mountain set to open for the 2020-21 season. The first such lift in the Eastern United States will re…




liftblog.com


----------



## MiSkier

MarzNC said:


> Is there any reason to use a lift over there during the summer?
> 
> Wonder if Boyne got a deal for making a commitment to three 8-packs from Dopplemayer: Big Sky, Loon, Boyne Mountain. The idea of installing an 8-pack at Big Sky goes all the way back to the 1990s.
> 
> March 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boyne Resorts To Install North America’s First Eight-Seater Chairlift At Big Sky Resort
> 
> 
> Boyne Resorts today unveiled an extraordinary addition to its collection of industry firsts, announcing installation of an eight-seater high-speed bubble chairlift at its Big Sky Resort in Montana—the first in North America.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> newsroom.doppelmayr.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _" . . .
> For nearly 70 years, Boyne Resorts has maintained a heritage of firsts with planning and investment focused on enhancing the guest experience. Its history with Doppelmayr, the world leader in ropeway transportation, dates back to the 1980s and a collaborative relationship formed in 1992 when the two introduced the first high-speed six-place chairlift in the U.S. or Europe at Boyne Mountain Resort in Michigan. It was then that a joint ambition to create an eight-seater chairlift was first discussed.
> . . ."_
> 
> January 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Announcing Kancamagus 8, the East’s First Eight Pack
> 
> 
> Boyne Resorts will invest millions to build its third D-Line chairlift, an eight place at Loon Mountain set to open for the 2020-21 season. The first such lift in the Eastern United States will re…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> liftblog.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 10587


I think the area the 8 pack is going will get developed. They are also building a sky bridge that goes from the main peak to the peak where the 8 pack is going to unload at. This only the first part of a master plan that goes till 2030.


----------



## MarzNC

MiSkier said:


> I think the area the 8 pack is going will get developed. They are also building a sky bridge that goes from the main peak to the peak where the 8 pack is going to unload at. This only the first part of a master plan that goes till 2030.


Aha! So the 8-pack will be used during the "green" seasons. The first golf course dates from the 1960s. Boyne Mountain has been a successful 4-season resort for a long time. That was clearly a factor for the decision to install an 8-pack that seems like overkill when there are skiers/boarders on the lifts.

The sky bridge in Gatlinburg, TN has been quite a hit from what I understand. Not many people know that installing the chairlift in Gatlinburg made a difference for Boyne Resorts because it made many year round. When it was destroyed by fire in 2016, that turned into an opportunity for Boyne to expand what they had to offer in TN.

Dec 2016








UPDATED: Boyne reports extensive fire damage at Gatlinburg Sky Lift


Gatlinburg Sky Lift, an eastern Tennessee tourist attraction run by Boyne Falls-based Boyne Resorts, remained closed as of Wednesday because of damage from last week's wildfire in the Gatlinburg area, the property's website noted. "We are able to con



www.petoskeynews.com





May 2019








SkyBridge Gatlinburg: Take a walk across the longest footbridge in the US


It's a bucket list bridge. SkyBridge Gatlinburg is opening soon, and we are offering you details of the experience crossing the longest pedestrian footbridge in North America.



www.knoxnews.com


----------



## Ripitz

Ramcharger 8 in Big Sky is also intended to provide service beyond skiing. The heated seats and bubble cover give comfort to guests riding to the restaurant on top of Andesite, Everett’s 8800. With incredible views of Lone Peak it is perfectly situated for Winter dinners and Summer weddings. Apparently it can also be a chondola because they teased a dining car called Omega V and a VIP cabin as well. In the Summer the lift has a special carrier for mountain bikes.


----------



## MarzNC

Looks like the Kanc8 at Loon was originally supposed to open in 2020, but was delayed due to the pandemic. Still a lot to do before the snow flies. Haul rope was spliced in September. For updates and a video that introduces the features:






Kanc8


North America's most technologically advanced chairlift comes to Loon.




www.loonmtn.com





For adults boarding with little kids, the high adjustable loading area has advantages. Depends on the operator to raise it up if needed. As someone who is petite who had had to jump at times to get onto a chairlift, I appreciate the concept. Didn't notice it happening that often on Ramcharger 8. But I avoid holiday periods for trips out west.


----------



## x10003q

Benny Profane said:


> Well, they're definitely reducing skier visits by getting off the EPIC pass, but just the opposite on lifts. They replaced the Pallavacini double chair with another new double, which I put in the same ballsy category as MRG replacing the single with a single. And the Pallavacini is right at the base. 99% of ski hill managers would have put a HSQ there. Maybe a six pack.
> 
> I think they are trying to be a niche mountain in a crowded market, and are going to compensate for less bodies on the hill with ever increasing pass prices.


It is not as ballsy when you find out they are going to replace the Lenawee Triple with a HS6. I still think it was silly to stick with a double at the Pallavicini lift when it also serves The Beavers, a 468 acre section they added a few years ago. They should have made it a FG triple or quad.


----------



## Benny Profane

I think it was a ballsy statement, an important message. It says, go to Breck, go to Keystone, go to Copper, if it's a problem. 

Abasin has a parking issue that can't change. They are limited to what they have now. They can't grow much bigger. So, refine the experience. I wish them the best. It's one of my favorite places on Earth.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Abasin has a parking issue that can't change. They are limited to what they have now. They can't grow much bigger. So, refine the experience. I wish them the best. It's one of my favorite places on Earth.


Only place out west I ever skied.
It was a June 5th and amazing.


----------



## raisingarizona

Yes, A-Basin is a classic and one of my all time favorites. I regret not experiencing the hike to Couloirs with winter snow conditions. Thanks for reminding me to have that on the list.


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> It is not as ballsy when you find out they are going to replace the Lenawee Triple with a HS6. I still think it was silly to stick with a double at the Pallavicini lift when it also serves The Beavers, a 468 acre section they added a few years ago. They should have made it a FG triple or quad.


Pali isn't the only way to get to Beavers. In fact, going from the top of Lenawee is how a local Diva guided me and my friends when we were checking out ABasin last season. We also went from the top of Pali later in the day, and that wasn't as easy in some ways.


----------



## MarzNC

Someone had wondered which Boyne Resort would be the next to get a HS8. It will be Sunday River. The reasoning is explained in the Liftblog article. The lift being replaced will be moved as an upgrade at SR.

October 7, 2021








Eight Seater Coming to Sunday River’s Jordan Bowl


Doppelmayr will build the fastest eight place chairlift in North America for the 2022-23 season, a Sunday River Red bubble chair in Jordan Bowl. Dubbed Jordan 8, the lift will feature the world&#82…




liftblog.com


----------



## ScottySkis

Big news for Sunday River: an 8-pack will replace the Jordan Express, setting up a monster terrain expansion beyond Jordan Bowl. The Jordan Express will move over to Barker and replace that troubled lift.


----------



## Ripitz

Not sure about this thread title. Fixed grip lifts can be high speed if there is a carpet loader. Or skip the loader and try to hang on like the glove burning Greylock rope tow. Just sayin’.


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> Not sure about this thread title. Fixed grip lifts can be high speed if there is a carpet loader. Just sayin’.


High speed detachable vs Fixed grip?


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> Not sure about this thread title. Fixed grip lifts can be high speed if there is a carpet loader. Or skip the loader and try to hang on like the glove burning Greylock rope tow. Just sayin’.


Thems fightin words!

The title is what it is because, well, Harv.

I blew milk threw my nose when @x10003q started talking High Capacity smack!


----------



## Ripitz

The free heels may contribute to your carpet loading challenges. Maybe try locking them down to avoid the face plants?


----------



## MarzNC

So here's the Wiki explanation of the difference between a detachable chairlift and a fixed-grip chairlift. Of course, there is quite a range for both detachable and FG lifts these days.









Detachable chairlift - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




" . . .
The significance of _detachable_ chairlift technology is primarily the speed and capacity. Detachable chairlifts move far faster than their fixed-grip brethren, averaging 1,000 feet per minute (11.3 mph, 18 km/h, 5.08 m/s) versus a typical fixed-grip speed of 500 ft/min (5.6 mph, 9 km/h, 2.54 m/s). Because the cable moves faster than most passengers could safely disembark and load, each chair is connected to the cable by a powerful spring-loaded cable grip which detaches at terminals, allowing the chair to slow considerably for convenient loading and unloading at a typical speed of 200 ft/min (2 mph, 4 km/h, 1 m/s), a speed slower even than fixed-grip _bunny chairlifts_.
. . ."


----------



## Ripitz

I suppose Greylock’s tow is a detachable since you let go of it when you reach the top.


Mount Greylock Ski Club


----------



## Campgottagopee

I like old slow lifts and long skis ✌️


----------



## Campgottagopee

Campgottagopee said:


> I like old slow lifts and long skis ✌️


Actually
I like old slow lifts, no line, and long skis?


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Actually
> I like old slow lifts, no line, and long skis?


That’s funny. I was just perusing the current offerings of old long skis on Craigslist again. I didn’t make any offers today though


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> That’s funny. I was just perusing the current offerings of old long skis on Craigslist again. I didn’t make any offers today though








Long Skis Truck: Buy, Sell & Trade. Vintage, Antique, Retro & Classic.


A rare collection of fine snow skis: Featuring hard to find, classic, vintage, retro, antique, long, straight, racing, mogul, freestyle, powder, (SL) Slalom



longskistruck.com


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> Long Skis Truck: Buy, Sell & Trade. Vintage, Antique, Retro & Classic.
> 
> 
> A rare collection of fine snow skis: Featuring hard to find, classic, vintage, retro, antique, long, straight, racing, mogul, freestyle, powder, (SL) Slalom
> 
> 
> 
> longskistruck.com


I like the concept but they don’t have much actual inventory and those prices are insane. My last garage sale pair were $20 with a set of matching poles


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I like the concept but they don’t have much actual inventory and those prices are insane. My last garage sale pair were $20 with a set of matching poles


Rt on 
Hops and Swaps is this weekend. I always go to see what wall art I can get for 20 bucks. They have to be over 200cm for me to pull the trigger.
Prefer 210 or longer.


----------



## Brownski

Speaking of old skis… oldest pair of skis ever found were pulled out of a glacier in Norway…





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org
				



I think they might have gotten the width wrong. The article says 17 cm wide, which seems off (170mm underfoot?) Maybe it should have been 117? 187 length and 117 underfoot sounds legit.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Actually
> I like ?


FIFY



Brownski said:


> Speaking of old skis… oldest pair of skis ever found were pulled out of a glacier in Norway…


I saw that article, and thought of you.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Rt on
> Hops and Swaps is this weekend. I always go to see what wall art I can get for 20 bucks. They have to be over 200cm for me to pull the trigger.
> Prefer 210 or longer.


As a wise man once said, 
”You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it."


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> I like old slow lifts and long skis ✌️


Long skis truck. 

Short skis suck!


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> Speaking of old skis… oldest pair of skis ever found were pulled out of a glacier in Norway…


Old school rippers!


----------



## raisingarizona




----------



## x10003q

Head SuperDH 223 mid 1980s


----------



## ne_skier

In terms of the high speed vs fixed grip debacle, for a larger mountain Sugarbush has a pretty good general model. High speed lifts in the more populated and mellow parts of the mountain with slow fixed grips servicing the more sparsely populated tough terrain. Then again, the biggest space in my heart is reserved for the Magics and Plattys of the ski world.


----------



## raisingarizona

x10003q said:


> Head SuperDH 223 mid 1980s
> View attachment 10630


Hang on now!


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Head SuperDH 223 mid 1980s
> View attachment 10630


Have the same ones but in white. No turns required.


----------



## Harvey

ne_skier said:


> high speed vs fixed grip debacle


? ?


----------



## Brownski

The Heads are awesome X


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> The free heels may contribute to your carpet loading challenges. Maybe try locking them down to avoid the face plants?



Dude. That thing kills the vibe.

Might be time for a ski off, T2B Pine Hill. Bro.


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> Head SuperDH 223 mid 1980s
> View attachment 10630


Can I borrow those for the ski off?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Can I borrow those for the ski off?


Takes a big man to be able to press on those!
I'm ready!!! Just have to unscrew mine from my shop.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> The Heads are awesome X


We've always called him "Racer X"









Racer X (character) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Might be time for a ski off


Uh oh. Is that the metal in your new skis talking?


----------



## Ripitz

⛷️?⛷️


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Takes a big man to be able to press on those!
> I'm ready!!! Just have to unscrew mine from my shop.


My money’s on RA or Rip in the open division.
And Camp in the geezer grouping if he’s back in training.
.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Takes a big man to be able to press on those!
> I'm ready!!! Just have to unscrew mine from my shop.


Ya could try these too.
Folks just found the other from a set and the newly found one has a binding.








The Best-Preserved Pair of Skis from Prehistory - Secrets of the Ice


We have found the best-preserved paIr of skis from prehistory at the Digervarden ice patch in Norway. They are 1300 years old.




secretsoftheice.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> My money’s on RA or Rip in the open division.
> And Camp in the geezer grouping if he’s back in training.
> .


Depends on the trail and conditions. If it's a grippy groomer I'll take those fellas on. You can't change physics. 
Training to begin after snowmobile season as that's when I'm getting a new wheel.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Depends on the trail and conditions. If it's a grippy groomer I'll take those fellas on. You can't change physics.
> Training to begin after snowmobile season as that's when I'm getting a new wheel.


Attaboy ?


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> Uh oh. Is that the metal in your new skis talking?


No this would be a soul ski off, no metal required. Right down that run in your avatar, I imagine.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> Have the same ones but in white. No turns required.


How fast do you have to be going to get that ski to bend?


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> How fast do you have to be going to get that ski to bend?


All of it


----------



## Campgottagopee




----------



## x10003q

I free skied the DHs quite a bit, mostly mid week at Gore, Stratton, Hunter. I would basically go straight down on the wider trails to get them up to turning speed. They actually turn pretty well once you are up to speed. They tracked like a bullet train. They would plow through everything and remain completely calm.
I used them at a speed camp. The instructors were real big on looking way down the mountain and proper planning to know how fast you can let them run. I was used to GS speeds from racing, but this was another level. This was also the time when super g was approved. I ran them thru a modified super g that we trained on. They were right at home over 50mph.

I never used them in a race. East coast downhills are rare and you just cannot walk in off the street to run one. There was a citizen DH that they used to run at Jay, but I never tried it.

At this point, the plastic on the bindings (Look 99RS) would probably explode if I tried to use the skis.


----------



## Brownski

x10003q said:


> At this point, the plastic on the bindings (Look 99RS) would probably explode if I tried to use the skis.


Would you be upset if a binding exploded? I don’t think I’d want to get them above 50 but a couple big turns down the middle of northface would be fun


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> Would you be upset if a binding exploded? I don’t think I’d want to get them above 50 but a couple big turns down the middle of northface would be fun


I would only be upset if the Looks exploded with me in them.  They would probably hold until you got up to speed and, at that speed, I would not want to be on them if they gave it up.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> All of it


All of the speeds? Jesus titty fucking Christ. I hope you wear a helmet when skiing those things. 

Can you get up to carving speed on them while skiing Greek Peak?


----------



## Harvey




----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> All of the speeds? Jesus titty fucking Christ. I hope you wear a helmet when skiing those things.
> 
> Can you get up to carving speed on them while skiing Greek Peak?



When I ran them helmets weren't a thing.
No way in hell is there enough room at Greek. Never happen. Smuggs worked. Saturday milk runs is where they shined.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> When I ran them helmets weren't a thing.
> No way in hell is there enough room at Greek. Never happen. Smuggs worked. Saturday milk runs is where they shined.


What were the best runs for em?

I bet first chair runs at whiteface would be choice.


----------



## Sbob

raisingarizona said:


> I bet first chair runs


Homey don't play that game anymore ... Nowhere near 220's but let my 170's max out on a first run when halfway down and low vis the groom stopped.... 45mph into ungroomed ...train wreck but nothing broken thank god !


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> No this would be a soul ski off, no metal required. Right down that run in your avatar, I imagine.


Soul ski off? First off, I’ve got no chance. I must concede to the King. Second, nice try, that run is super secret and no one knows about it. Sorry Bro, I gotta keep it that way.


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> I free skied the DHs quite a bit





x10003q said:


> I would basically go straight down on the wider trails to get them up to turning speed. They actually turn pretty well once you are up to speed. They tracked like a bullet train. They would plow through everything and remain completely calm.


An old friend lent me a pair of Rossi 223s for the season in Big Sky. He was a Montana native and local legend. He would go up with patrol first thing and come down the mountain before anyone was on it so he could let ‘em rip. One and done. Sure big boys can press ‘em but little guys can too. You just need lots of room. I remember they were mounted a little forward so you could keep them on the ground. They were so big they didn’t fit in the tram and I would have to stick the tips out the window. Lenin and Marx, probably a 1,500 ft drop, would go in three or four turns. The Gullies could go with none. By the end of the season I was skiing the trees and could even spin on them. The most danger I was ever in though was on the lower mountain. Nothing scarier than coming over a roller going mach chicken and seeing a gaper traversing your line. If you throw those things sideways you better hold on. There’s a reason why they close the mountain and put up fences for ski races.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> What were the best runs for em?
> 
> I bet first chair runs at whiteface would be choice.


If FIS was flat we'd hit that, if not it was Chilcoot. They winched out free fall once but I bailed on that. I thought for sure I would explode hitting that on those boards. Anyone can ski them, you just have to hold the f on and not get in the back seat. Speaking from experience on that one....lol


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> An old friend lent me a pair of Rossi 223s for the season in Big Sky. He was a Montana native and local legend. He would go up with patrol first thing and come down the mountain before anyone was on it so he could let ‘em rip. One and done. Sure big boys can press ‘em but little guys can too. You just need lots of room. I remember they were mounted a little forward so you could keep them on the ground. They were so big they didn’t fit in the tram and I would have to stick the tips out the window. Lenin and Marx, probably a 1,500 ft drop, would go in three or four turns. The Gullies could go with none. By the end of the season I was skiing the trees and could even spin on them. The most danger I was ever in though was on the lower mountain. Nothing scarier than coming over a roller going mach chicken and seeing a gaper traversing your line. If you throw those things sideways you better hold on. There’s a reason why they close the mountain and put up fences for ski races.


Buddy of mine at Smuggs had a pair of Yamaha DH, they were insanely stiff. Saturday milk runs = riding up in the groomer at the crack of ass in the morning. Knowing it was just the 4 or 5 of us made it easier to let them run. All you had to do was look out for deer.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I read that A basin was adding a high speed lift or two and reducing skiers by limiting passes and tickets.


ABasin givin college students a deal. $269 for 5 tickets any days. Doesn’t have to be consecutive.
Ya just gotta be signed up for at least 6 semester hours.




__





Arapahoe Basin Store


The online store for Arapahoe Basin Ski Area in Summit County, Colorado




store.arapahoebasin.com


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I read that A basin was adding a high speed lift or two and reducing skiers by limiting passes and tickets. Can't find the article.


Only the one HS6 coming soon.

October 2, 2021








Lenawee Express 6-Pack in 2022


We are excited to announce that A-Basin has signed a deal with Leitner Poma to replace Lenawee Lift in the summer of 2022. We will be removi...




arapahoebasin.blogspot.com





Al announced the idea of selling 10% fewer season passes in the spring. Reminded people in early Sept. However, ABasin is not requiring Ikon holders to make reservations. Since Ikon is only good for 5/7 days and many travelers save ABasin for late season, guess those people aren't a concern.

September 4, 2021








Season Passes - Any Day Passes


Usually when I write a blog post pushing any kind of sales, nobody reads my post. That said, I still have to do it every once in a while. Se...




arapahoebasin.blogspot.com


----------



## Benny Profane

Raises hand.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> Long skis truck.
> 
> Short skis suck!


Donnie does Woodward in Utah on some Fischer 208’s.


----------



## MarzNC

Never skied Bromley and don't know the history of their Express lift. Wanted to note that a major upgrade to the Sun Mountain Express quad cost $1 million in 2021. It's a Doppelmayr lift and they did the work.









Sun Mountain Express Goes Through Major Upgrade






www.bromley.com




_". . .
The lift went through a $1 Million full systems modernization during the offseason. This means a lot of things, but here are the main things to know:_


_New drive + control systems on both stations_
_Doppelmayr’s most advanced, state-of-the-art safety system_
_New fiber-optic communications line_
_New power source at the summit_
_22 inch HD touch screen control computers inside both stations_
_New hydraulic braking unit and tensioning system_
_In other words, the lift has a new heartbeat. The exterior of the lift will look the same, and guests will not be able to see any noticeable differences. Reliability will be strengthened, with future upgrades and add-ons much easier to come by with the new system.
. . .

The Sun Mountain Express Quad has an uphill capacity of 1,800 people per hour and moves at a speed of 1,000 feet per minute. It is a base to summit lift, located in the main base area of Bromley Mountain. The lift covers over 1,300 vertical feet."_


----------



## MarzNC

The fast 6-pack at Big Sky will spin on Thanksgiving Day, which is opening day.

November 18, 2021








Big Sky Resort to unveil new Swift Current lift on opening day


Fastest six-rider chairlift in North America ‘big evolution’in the ski industry By Bella Butler EBS STAFF BIG SKY – Amid Big Sky Resort’s era of capital innovation, new technology will... READ MORE




www.explorebigsky.com




_" . . .
With a maximum speed of 6 meters per second, or 1,200 feet per minute, Swift Current 6 will join the fastest lifts in the country, marking a revolution for the ski lift industry as a whole. 

Comparatively, the adjacent chairlift in the base area, Ramcharger 8, which was unveiled at the start of the 2018 winter season, travels at 5 mps, and the old Swifty operated at 4 mps. 

“It’s going to feel noticeably different,” Schwartz said, adding that the ride on Swift Current 6 will be approximately four minutes faster than on the old lift.
. . .

Ramcharger 8 is the continent’s first eight-pack chair and along with Swift Current 6, the two primary base lifts will move 6,600 people uphill from the base an hour. 

Another new feature of Swift Current 6 is its 90-degree, contoured unload area. The new offload will spit riders out north in the direction of Jay Walk, eliminating scramble time at the top of the lift.
. . ."_


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> The fast 6-pack at Big Sky will spin on Thanksgiving Day, which is opening day.
> 
> November 18, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Sky Resort to unveil new Swift Current lift on opening day
> 
> 
> Fastest six-rider chairlift in North America ‘big evolution’in the ski industry By Bella Butler EBS STAFF BIG SKY – Amid Big Sky Resort’s era of capital innovation, new technology will... READ MORE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.explorebigsky.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _" . . .
> With a maximum speed of 6 meters per second, or 1,200 feet per minute, Swift Current 6 will join the fastest lifts in the country, marking a revolution for the ski lift industry as a whole.
> 
> Comparatively, the adjacent chairlift in the base area, Ramcharger 8, which was unveiled at the start of the 2018 winter season, travels at 5 mps, and the old Swifty operated at 4 mps.
> 
> “It’s going to feel noticeably different,” Schwartz said, adding that the ride on Swift Current 6 will be approximately four minutes faster than on the old lift.
> . . .
> 
> Ramcharger 8 is the continent’s first eight-pack chair and along with Swift Current 6, the two primary base lifts will move 6,600 people uphill from the base an hour.
> 
> Another new feature of Swift Current 6 is its 90-degree, contoured unload area. The new offload will spit riders out north in the direction of Jay Walk, eliminating scramble time at the top of the lift.
> . . ."_


I checked out the trail map, that place is loaded with high speed lifts. 41,000 uphill capacity on 5000 acres is still insanely low density, certainly by eastern standards.

Someone who's skied triple diamond terrain, tell me about the experience.


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> I checked out the trail map, that place is loaded with high speed lifts. 41,000 uphill capacity on 5000 acres is still insanely low density, certainly by eastern standards.
> 
> Someone who's skied triple diamond terrain, tell me about the experience.


Don’t fall.


----------



## tirolski

Found this older show interesting.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Someone who's skied triple diamond terrain, tell me about the experience.


This little ripper makes short work of them. Badass comes in pint-sizes too.







raisingarizona said:


> Don’t fall.


Sorry, I couldn’t resist.


----------



## Harvey

Love to hear a description of the experience, the feelings, from someone who's skied them.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Love to hear a description of the experience, the feelings, from someone who's skied them.


That won't be me for hike-to terrain at Big Sky. Way too many rocks. Even negotiating the top of Challenger to get to the terrain on the front side requires careful attention when the snow cover is on the thin side. Even the top of Liberty is often about avoiding the rocks.

I've improved my technique in the past decade to the point of enjoying double-blacks at Taos in good snow. That means deep powder, going between trees, and no worry about hitting bottom. Haven't done the Ridge hike often, and so far mostly with an instructor. Double-blacks at Taos is the type of terrain I won't ever ski alone. Have done it often enough in the last few years to know it's been worth it more to spend the time and money for lessons during trips out west, as well as at Massanutten. The surprise was that now I enjoy bumps too. The reason to learn to ski bumps was to be able to learn to ski trees where the powder stays fresh a lot longer.

I ski a lot more terrain at Alta these days than before I started taking lessons regularly after knee rehab in 2012. The first run down the far side of Supreme Bowl at speed was quite a rush. Especially since my daughter had already followed Bill earlier that day and was right behind me. She was a better skier than I was by the time she was 11 at Alta Ski School. By that day I knew more than enough to keep up speed and just follow Bill and trust that he knew where he was going. That was not the type of run where there was any place to stop and re-set for quite a while. Probably took less than 3 minutes until there was a place to stop below the bigger rock bands but it felt longer than that. The memory is both fresh and fuzzy at the same time.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Because I'd rather spend my time skiing, exploring another run, getting exercise, not sitting on some slow poke chair. What am I missing? 

This question is like a golfer saying, "what's wrong with waiting on the group in front of you every shot?" Because I'd rather be hitting the ball and walking to my next shot, not standing around.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> Because I'd rather spend my time skiing, exploring another run, getting exercise, not sitting on some slow poke chair. What am I missing?


How much more are you willing to pay for having a bunch of detachable lifts? My sense is that the starting price is at least $1 million and is more likely to be $2-3 million. A fixed-grip quad is a few hundred thousand. Can save even more by moving an existing quad that is still an upgrade to an existing double or triple. That's the approach Boyne has taken in more than one resort over the years.

I fully appreciate having a detachable combined with fixed-grip lifts. Grand Targhee, Waterville Valley, Jiminy Peak, Timberline in WV, and Sugar in NC have taken that approach. I'm sure there are others as well.

Wachusett took the long view and invested in three detachable years ago, including one that only serves two long green trails. But that's essentially an "urban" ski area that has a lot of volume from Boston (under an hour's drive for many people). There are seniors and other who can ski midweek in the mornings, lots of school kids in the afternoons, and all ages at night including the race leagues.


----------



## Tjf1967

MarzNC said:


> How much more are you willing to pay for having a bunch of detachable lifts? My sense is that the starting price is at least $1 million and is more likely to be $2-3 million. A fixed-grip quad is a few hundred thousand. Can save even more by moving an existing quad that is still an upgrade to an existing double or triple. That's the approach Boyne has taken in more than one resort over the years.
> 
> I fully appreciate having a detachable combined with fixed-grip lifts. Grand Targhee, Waterville Valley, Jiminy Peak, Timberline in WV, and Sugar in NC have taken that approach. I'm sure there are others as well.
> 
> Wachusett took the long view and invested in three detachable years ago, including one that only serves two long green trails. But that's essentially an "urban" ski area that has a lot of volume from Boston (under an hour's drive for many people). There are seniors and other who can ski midweek in the mornings, lots of school kids in the afternoons, and all ages at night including the race leagues.


Jimmy has a high speed six pack that services 95% of their terrain. If they didn't already have the old doubles around I don't think they would install them now.


----------



## MarzNC

Tjf1967 said:


> Jimmy has a high speed six pack that services 95% of their terrain. If they didn't already have the old doubles around I don't think they would install them now.


Agree. But I don't think JP is in any hurry to replace the old lifts. If the 6-pack didn't exist and was a fixed quad, JP would ski very differently midweek. Lines on weekends would be much longer out of the base. The fixed quad that loads mid station is a way to avoid going back to the base for a few runs. I assume that line doesn't get that long on weekends.

Waterville Valley opted to move an old fixed grip triple to Green Mountain instead of spending money on another detachable. I assume that lift doesn't build up much of a line on weekends compared to the detachable that goes up almost to the summit and serves a wide range of terrain from easy blue to black. There are other fixed grip lifts too. The oldest and slowest is going to be replaced soon.

Found the WV MDP from 2019.


https://skimap.org/data/353/3535/1581084211.pdf


----------



## Brownski

I know I've said this before so it might be tiresome but Jimmy Peak is the prime example of a high capacity lift ruining a mountain. A fixed grip quad would be plenty there, even on a weekend. I'm glad they're doing well and that they're business is thriving but the "right" thing to do to increase capacity would have been to reacquire and reopen Brody. The hill isn't big enough to handle the number of skiers they get on a weekend. It never will be. It used to be a cool hill. The terrain is great. I haven't been back in a long time but last time I was I thought that it had become a Hunter equivalent. It makes me sad.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> I know I've said this before so it might be tiresome but Jimmy Peak is the prime example of a high capacity lift ruining a mountain. A fixed grip quad would be plenty there, even on a weekend. I'm glad they're doing well and that they're business is thriving but the "right" thing to do to increase capacity would have been to reacquire and reopen Brody. The hill isn't big enough to handle the number of skiers they get on a weekend. It never will be. It used to be a cool hill. The terrain is great. I haven't been back in a long time but last time I was I thought that it had become a Hunter equivalent. It makes me sad.


Same here. I’ve always been a proponent for Snowbowl and the new bling bling lifts but the 6 pack was too much. The ski runs are a zoo now. I’m happy for their success but we’ve lost our cool, funky local ski hill.


----------



## Brownski

Dude, I'm sorry to hear that. I remember you being jazzed about that new lift when it first went in. I was afraid it would be too much


----------



## Andy_ROC

MarzNC said:


> How much more are you willing to pay for having a bunch of detachable lifts? My sense is that the starting price is at least $1 million and is more likely to be $2-3 million. A fixed-grip quad is a few hundred thousand. Can save even more by moving an existing quad that is still an upgrade to an existing double or triple. That's the approach Boyne has taken in more than one resort over the years.
> 
> I fully appreciate having a detachable combined with fixed-grip lifts. Grand Targhee, Waterville Valley, Jiminy Peak, Timberline in WV, and Sugar in NC have taken that approach. I'm sure there are others as well.
> 
> Wachusett took the long view and invested in three detachable years ago, including one that only serves two long green trails. But that's essentially an "urban" ski area that has a lot of volume from Boston (under an hour's drive for many people). There are seniors and other who can ski midweek in the mornings, lots of school kids in the afternoons, and all ages at night including the race leagues.


I get that they are expensive but when used properly they can replace a couple fixed grip. Where I've seen them used is at locations that serve a large number of trails, not just a few. They can dramatically reduce long lift lines. *Waiting in long lines is one way to ruin a good ski day and feel like you wasted your money and time. *

Example at Bristol the Comet Express (detached) serves virtually the same terrain as the Rocket Triple (fixed). They both serve a significant amount of terrain. The Fixed is a 10 min ride and the detached is 4.5 mins. The loading areas are within 250 feet of each other. You're better off waiting a few minutes in what appears to be a "big line" at the detached than a small line at the fixed.

Holimont is another great example of smart use of a centrally located detached and then they have a bunch of fixed that serve smaller areas fanned out across the mountain.

Agreed Grand Targhee is another good example that has a central high speed then uses a series of fixed. This appears to be an effective model of reducing lift lines and allowing people to quickly disperse across the mountain.

So yes I strongly support the investment and costs passed on to tickets for a high speed when they are used properly. Obviously not every lift should be a highspeed but when used properly to alleviate choke points it's well worth the investment.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> Dude, I'm sorry to hear that. I remember you being jazzed about that new lift when it first went in. I was afraid it would be too much


Thanks. The local crowd isn’t stoked. Last year was too much. 

It’s great midweek during a big snow year once the Phoenix crowd has gone back to golfing. 

I do love being able to go up and get a bunch of laps in a couple hours on the right days but when it’s bad, like most of last year it’s real bad. 

It’s fine imo, I can use my Snowbowl season pass cash to go spend 4 to 6 weeks in Taos or going wherever. I’m a few years out from making that happen but that’s the plan. If I can take two months off every winter to travel I think I’d be satisfied.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> Thanks. The local crowd isn’t stoked. Last year was too much.


Any chance last year was a covid thing and things might calm down a bit?


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> Any chance last year was a covid thing and things might calm down a bit?


I think so. I hope so anyways. 

The ski area here is a unique case study. Its the only ski area within a two hour drive of a massive population center. The improvements have made it very popular. It’s a great success and Coleman’s main money maker. The covid thing last year definitely made things suck more then the normal but overall it’s going to always be different and in some aspects negatively. 

Like I’ve said before, I’m ok with that and it’s a motivator to spend time elsewhere. I’ve been skiing here for almost twenty years, honestly, I’m ready for something new.


----------



## raisingarizona

Personally I feel that the mountains design/layout is all wonky. That happens with really old ski areas. It wasn’t planned for where we are now. The place was first established in the 30’s so I’m not picking on the management in any way. It’s unfortunate though and those shortcomings become very apparent with the crowds we have today.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> I get that they are expensive but when used properly they can replace a couple fixed grip. Where I've seen them used is at locations that serve a large number of trails, not just a few. They can dramatically reduce long lift lines. *Waiting in long lines is one way to ruin a good ski day and feel like you wasted your money and time. *
> 
> Example at Bristol the Comet Express (detached) serves virtually the same terrain as the Rocket Triple (fixed). They both serve a significant amount of terrain. The Fixed is a 10 min ride and the detached is 4.5 mins. The loading areas are within 250 feet of each other. You're better off waiting a few minutes in what appears to be a "big line" at the detached than a small line at the fixed.
> 
> Holimont is another great example of smart use of a centrally located detached and then they have a bunch of fixed that serve smaller areas fanned out across the mountain.
> 
> Agreed Grand Targhee is another good example that has a central high speed then uses a series of fixed. This appears to be an effective model of reducing lift lines and allowing people to quickly disperse across the mountain.
> 
> So yes I strongly support the investment and costs passed on to tickets for a high speed when they are used properly. Obviously not every lift should be a highspeed but when used properly to alleviate choke points it's well worth the investment.


Good to know other examples where one detachable makes a noticeable difference.

Taos is a bit unusual as a destination resort because at this point there is only one lift out of the main base. While there it's possible to drive up to a second base, there is very little parking and that road requires AWD essentially all season. There used to be two lifts, both fairly old fixed grip lifts, called Lift 1 and Lift 5. Lift 1 was a fixed quad that was replaced with a detachable quad. Lift 5 was an old double that was removed completely. I think the space was needed. The downside is that if Lift 1 is down for any reason, there is no way out of the main base.

Spending less time riding up Lift 1 is definitely an improvement.


----------



## raisingarizona

MarzNC said:


> Good to know other examples where one detachable makes a noticeable difference.
> 
> Taos is a bit unusual as a destination resort because at this point there is only one lift out of the main base. While there it's possible to drive up to a second base, there is very little parking and that road requires AWD essentially all season. There used to be two lifts, both fairly old fixed grip lifts, called Lift 1 and Lift 5. Lift 1 was a fixed quad that was replaced with a detachable quad. Lift 5 was an old double that was removed completely. I think the space was needed. The downside is that if Lift 1 is down for any reason, there is no way out of the main base.
> 
> Spending less time riding up Lift 1 is definitely an improvement.


Hot laps off that chair are super fun.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> My money’s on RA or Rip in the open division.
> And Camp in the geezer grouping if he’s back in training.
> .


Everything is training for something.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466753955837485057


----------



## Woodski12

Makes it easier to board so the lift is not stopped as often, less likely there will be injuries and lawsuits and people getting carried up the hill while hanging, less pain when the liftie is looking the other way as you are loading. Lots of marketing too. I just heard some great comments from the Smugglers' Notch owner who said that they have no real interest in upgrades but have actually considered a detachable double to replace the Madonna lift. For those who don't know, Smuggs has the oldest lifts around, no detachables... fewer crowds on the way down as a result.


----------



## Woodski12

Woodski12 said:


> detachable double to replace the Madonna lift


Forgot to add in... "which would be awesome"


----------



## snoloco

The detachable lift haters are forgetting how detachable lifts can completely revitalize and revolutionize a portion of a ski area, or even an entire ski area. There are two prime examples of this at Killington, those being Ramshead and Snowdon.

Ramshead: This area was first developed in 1962, served by a 6500 foot long double chair. It features a few top to bottom trails that were generally mellow in pitch. Since it was built, it remained essentially unchanged into the 90's. Meanwhile, other areas of the mountain opened up with much more modern lifts, snowmaking, and amenities than what Ramshead had. In fact, only one trail, Header, the lift line, even had snowmaking. Fast forward to 1996, and Les Otten changed all that. The double was replaced with a high speed quad, the trails widened, lodge renovated, and a new beginner area opened. This significantly reduced crowding at the Snowshed and K1 base areas, and provided a "next step" for skiers who learned on Snowshed and ready to up their game. Ramshead, once a quiet, underutilized part of the mountain was instantly transformed into one of the most popular, which it remains today. And remember how Header was the only trail with snowmaking? Well now the entire mountain has it, and it's one of the first sections to get completely built out each year. 

Snowdon: With high speed lifts opening all across the resort, Snowdon was one of the last areas that only had fixed grip lifts. The triple and quad were slow, windy, and cold, especially when they stopped frequently, lengthening the already long ride. As other parts of the mountain grew around it, Snowdon became a pass-through area between Killington Peak and the upgraded Ramshead. This resulted in some dangerous trail intersections and safety concerns aside, a disjointed ski experience. In 2018, a new bubble 6 replaced the Snowdon Quad, the worst of the trail intersections were removed with tunnels, and now Snowdon is now an area people will seek out and lap. It has some nice top to bottom intermediate trails which the resort was short of before. It's also the main area for early season skiing once they've expanded beyond North Ridge.

These two areas would not have been upgraded and revitalized without detachble lifts. You can't do such a groundbreaking improvement of a trail pod or base area without a detachable lift anchoring it.


----------



## x10003q

Woodski12 said:


> Makes it easier to board so the lift is not stopped as often, less likely there will be injuries and lawsuits and people getting carried up the hill while hanging, less pain when the liftie is looking the other way as you are loading. Lots of marketing too. I just heard some great comments from the Smugglers' Notch owner who said that they have no real interest in upgrades but have actually considered a detachable double to replace the Madonna lift.* For those who don't know, Smuggs has the oldest lifts around, no detachables... fewer crowds on the way down as a result.*


There are no crowds on the way down because, during prime time, it takes 20 minutes standing in the corral and 20 minutes slowly riding up the mountain. Sitting 30 feet in the air in single digit temps and wind for 20 minutes is not fun. I did that during my youth and it sucked.


----------



## raisingarizona

1 run + 1 lift + 14 inches = NOPE.


----------



## Harvey

Loon just debuted an 8 pack. What is the practical limit for skiers sitting in a line, in a lift?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> What is the practical limit for skiers sitting in a line, in a lift?


Yer not supposed to sit in a lift line, standing room only, just sayin.


----------



## abe

It might be 8 or not much more, I have heard the 8'ers in practice have not a whole lot more capacity than 6'ers due to the difficulty in loading 8 skiers in a line every time.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Harvey said:


> What is the practical limit for skiers sitting in a line, in a lift?


The limit may be more around the question of how much weight the haul rope can bear. Or maybe a question of the time to evacuate 130 chairs of 8 people each at the top of a windy peak with late December daylight.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

I've ridden the Big Sky 8 pack and even when there's a pretty long line it loads less than 8 on a lot of chairs. When you ride with 7 other people, sometimes it feels a little like a subway car, where you feel like you need to be careful about how you talk. I don't think we're gonna see many lifts bigger than 6.

mm


----------



## Harvey

I've never seen a detachable double. That would be pretty cool. Maybe a waste of money, but cool to see and ride.


----------



## Johnny V.

Milo Maltbie said:


> I've ridden the Big Sky 8 pack and even when there's a pretty long line it loads less than 8 on a lot of chairs.



Yup. When we were there in 2019, they had just installed it, and very few chairs went up with 8. Not sure if they have switched to RFID since then, but the handheld scanners and people not paying attention made for less than full loads.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> I've never seen a detachable double. That would be pretty cool. Maybe a waste of money, but cool to see and ride.


I mentioned it somewhere upthread, the Wildcat gondola was a detachable double.


----------



## Harvey

Sorry I missed it. In my mind I was imaging a chair.

Two person gondi seems really cray.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Two person gondi seems really cray.


The crazy part is that one time they were loading sand bags before we got in to add weight because of the wind. Scary.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> I mentioned it somewhere upthread, the Wildcat gondola was a detachable double.


They looked a little claustrophobic


----------



## snoloco

Harvey said:


> I've never seen a detachable double. That would be pretty cool. Maybe a waste of money, but cool to see and ride.


They do exist. https://www.remontees-mecaniques.net/bdd/liste-5-type-36.html

I don't think you'll see a new one built again. Resorts would probably just opt for a quad with bigger chair spacing.



abe said:


> It might be 8 or not much more, I have heard the 8'ers in practice have not a whole lot more capacity than 6'ers due to the difficulty in loading 8 skiers in a line every time.


Most 8 packs have big chair spacing, so there is not necessarily more capacity than a 6. Boyne has 2 in operation and 2 more announced for 2022. Ramcharger currently has an hourly capacity of 3200, but is upgradeable to 3600. Kancamagus has a theoretical and current capacity of 3500. The two announced 2022 projects will have hourly capacities of 3200. While these capacities are all achievable with a 6, the loading intervals are shorter. For a 3600 hourly capacity, you can load 6 every 6 seconds or 8 every 8 seconds. For 3200, it's 6 every 6.75 seconds, or 8 every 9 seconds. The question is whether loading more people on each chair, but with a longer interval between chairs is better than loading fewer people per chair, but with a shorter interval between chairs.



Milo Maltbie said:


> I've ridden the Big Sky 8 pack and even when there's a pretty long line it loads less than 8 on a lot of chairs. When you ride with 7 other people, sometimes it feels a little like a subway car, where you feel like you need to be careful about how you talk. I don't think we're gonna see many lifts bigger than 6.


I went to Big Sky the year Ramcharger 8 opened. It never had much of a line when I was there, so they were never trying to group people. I actually don't think I ever got on it with a full chair.

If you go back in history, the first high speed quad in the world was built in 1981 at Breckenridge. The first 6 pack was built in 1991 at Mont Orignal in Quebec. In North America, 6 packs have never been as popular as quads. In Europe, quads have been almost entirely displaced by 6 packs and 8 packs. But similar to North America, 8 packs have never displaced 6 packs.

I think you'll see some more 8 packs in North America. They are useful for when a resort needs a very high-capacity chairlift on a relatively short route. None of the Boyne 8 packs are over 5000 feet. The one Vail has announced for Park City will be 5370 feet long. It's the first one in the chain, and I think there will be more. It's actually replacing a 6 pack. That brings us up to 5 either operating or announced in North America, and I think there will be more in the coming years.


----------



## MarzNC

If you ignore the title and scan down, @Stu got to experience the Kanc8 recently at the opening ceremonies. There are videos embedded in his article.

“The most advanced chairlift in the world” opens at Loon​








						Everyone Is a Season Passholder Now – Vail Sells 2.1 Million Epic Passes
					

“We continue to successfully convert guests from lift tickets to pass products”




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Sorry I missed it. In my mind I was imaging a chair.
> 
> Two person gondi seems really cray.


Mt Snow used have 2 enclosed detachable doubles that they called a gondola - enclosed skis on lift. They were both on the main face. Once went to the top and one went 2/3 of the way up.


----------



## Face4Me

x10003q said:


> Mt Snow used have 2 enclosed detachable doubles that they called a gondola - enclosed skis on lift. They were both on the main face. Once went to the top and one went 2/3 of the way up.


I remember those ... they were awesome ... you didn't even have to take your skis off!!!


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> If you ignore the title and scan down, @Stu got to experience the Kanc8 recently at the opening ceremonies. There are videos embedded in his article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone Is a Season Passholder Now – Vail Sells 2.1 Million Epic Passes
> 
> 
> “We continue to successfully convert guests from lift tickets to pass products”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stormskiing.com


This was written in his article. Dang double negatives. WTF does it mean?.






_The importance of this from a lifestyle point of view cannot be overstated. Are you a skier, or someone who skis? If you’re a passholder, you’re a skier. You feel cool. In a sport that* never ceases trying to make its participants feel bad *about themselves, that matters*. *A lot._
*emphasis* added.

I ain’t a masochist. I just like to ski.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Where do we really need high speed lifts?
> 
> What problem are these lifts solving?


They’re busy building em.
With epicliftlines, they need em.








Grand Junction chairlift maker is busier than ever


GRAND JUNCTION – The welders are happy to show their boss the final piece of what’s been a two-year project. The massive steel structure is ready for shipping to finish off the multiyear construction ...




www.durangoherald.com


----------



## Old Fart Snbder

I remember riding the 2 person Gondola at Wildcat. It was so old a slot was never added outside to carry snowboards and the inside was super small. Always brought my 147 Lib Tech when I rode there.


----------



## Ripitz

Old Fart Snbder said:


> I remember riding the 2 person Gondola at Wildcat. It was so old a slot was never added outside to carry snowboards and the inside was super small. Always brought my 147 Lib Tech when I rode there.


I don’t think Gore’s OG gondola had them either. I just had a flashback to bringing our monoskis inside with us?


----------



## snoloco

Finally got to ride the Kancamagus 8 at Loon, often referred to as Kanc 8, and styled on the logo as Kan8amagus. It's a Doppelmayr D-Line model installed last summer. It's the third lift to serve the West Basin terrain at Loon, as it replaced a high speed quad, which replaced a double-double. 

The lift statistics are as follows:

Length: 3992 feet
Vertical: 1065 feet
Capacity: 3500 riders per hour
Speed: 1080 fpm

Flat light made it difficult to take good pictures, but I did the best I could. This was taken near the top of the lift first thing in the morning.




The bottom terminal is inside a large building. This building also houses the chairs, which are parked inside every night. This lift is bottom drive, but you'd hardly notice. It has a Doppelmayr Direct Drive (DDD). The motor is attached directly to the bullwheel and there is no gearbox. Not only is this more efficient and more reliable, but it is also extremely quiet. There are return terminals that are louder than this drive terminal. There are loading gates and a conveyor. This is important because it helps to line up all 8 people so they all sit down at the same time.




The top is a standard Doppelmayr D-Line station.




The lower section of the lift, taken late in the day.




This lift has individual seats with contoured backs. And yes, they are heated. It seems to work better on some chairs than others, but is definitely noticeable, particularly on cold days like the day I took these pictures. The bubble of course does a great job keeping the wind out, and since 8 pack chairs are very heavy, the lift will almost never go on wind hold. The safety bar locks in place once it is down, and each foot rest has a bar between your legs, so it is impossible to fall out. The safety bar and bubble automatically raise at the top.




Last but not least, this lift has excellent capacity. Even with no organization (European style line for European style lift), the line pictured was under 12 minutes. Also, just look at the size of the bottom terminal. It's as big as the lodge, if not bigger.


----------



## jasonwx

I beat ya to it last week

look at the line geeze. on wed it was ski on


----------



## raisingarizona

I bet those bells and whistles are going to become problematic for lift mechanics at some point.


----------



## snoloco

jasonwx said:


> I beat ya to it last week
> 
> look at the line geeze. on wed it was ski on


I rode Ramcharger 8 at Big Sky the year it opened, so I beat you to it.



raisingarizona said:


> I bet those bells and whistles are going to become problematic for lift mechanics at some point.


Actually the opposite. D-Line lifts are built with a long service life and high operating hours in mind. The direct drive eliminates any chance of gearbox failures.


----------



## witch hobble

snoloco said:


> The safety bar locks in place once it is down, and each foot rest has a bar between your legs, so it is impossible to fall out.


When the monoskiing resurgence finally hits the mainstream, this feature will be considered a design flaw.


----------



## Ripitz

I rode the one in Big Sky and based on that experience I look forward to never riding the one at Loon. Heated seats and a bubble? What’s next gaming? Those seats pitch you forward if you are wearing a backpack but you’ll be safe thanks to the locking nutcrusher.


----------



## jasonwx

raisingarizona said:


> I bet those bells and whistles are going to become problematic for lift mechanics at some point.


ya mean technicians.. all those sensors and chips yikes


----------



## Tjf1967

Ripitz said:


> I rode the one in Big Sky and based on that experience I look forward to never riding the one at Loon. Heated seats and a bubble? What’s next gaming? Those seats pitch you forward if you are wearing a backpack but you’ll be safe thanks to the locking nutcrusher.


And when one of them malfunctions and starts spinning backwards people are locked in for the ride.


----------



## raisingarizona

jasonwx said:


> ya mean technicians.. all those senors and chips yikes


Yup.


----------



## snoloco

Ripitz said:


> I rode the one in Big Sky and based on that experience I look forward to never riding the one at Loon. Heated seats and a bubble? What’s next gaming? Those seats pitch you forward if you are wearing a backpack but you’ll be safe thanks to the locking nutcrusher.


Loon doesn't allow backpacks to be worn on lifts. You have to take it off and carry it.



Tjf1967 said:


> And when one of them malfunctions and starts spinning backwards people are locked in for the ride.


Detachables won't roll back like that. Since the chairs are spaced further apart, there isn't as much weight on the heavy side. There is also a lot more friction caused by the PTO sheaves and terminal equipment. Those two factors prevent a detachable from gaining as much speed as a fixed grip can in a rollback situation. The detachable mechanism also works in reverse, so the even if the lift did get going just as fast as a fixed grip, the chairs would just detach like they normally do, but in reverse.


----------



## Brownski

snoloco said:


> Those two factors prevent a detachable from gaining as much speed as a fixed grip can in a rollback situation. The detachable mechanism also works in reverse, so the even if the lift did get going just as fast as a fixed grip, the chairs would just detach like they normally do, but in reverse.


That is legitimately interesting information there. Got some links?


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> That is legitimately interesting information there. Got some links?


I don’t have a link but I’ve definitely heard that before about detachable chairs and rollback.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> I don’t have a link but I’ve definitely heard that before about detachable chairs and rollback.


Being able to detach during rollback is like mustard on a shit sandwich. I always thought I could turn around and drop down to the ski bar and hang off until I could let go and stick the landing. Am I the only one who fantasizes about that? I might have watched too many James Bond movies.


----------



## snoloco

Ripitz said:


> Being able to detach during rollback is like mustard on a shit sandwich.


Not really. A detachable lift that runs 1000 fpm in normal operation usually has a terminal speed of 200 fpm. That is a 5th of the line speed. No matter what speed a lift gets up to in a rollback, the terminal speed would still be the same fraction of the line speed. So if it got going 1500 fpm, the chairs would move at 300 fpm in the terminals. But as I mentioned earlier, a detachable in a rollback situation is never going to pick up as much speed as a fixed grip. The physics are impossible.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> I bet those bells and whistles are going to become problematic for lift mechanics at some point.


Maybe, maybe not. Probably beats trying to keep a lift that's over 20 years old running when you can't easily get parts any more.

I have a husband who keeps cars too long.


----------



## Ripitz

snoloco said:


> Not really. A detachable lift that runs 1000 fpm in normal operation usually has a terminal speed of 200 fpm. That is a 5th of the line speed. No matter what speed a lift gets up to in a rollback, the terminal speed would still be the same fraction of the line speed. So if it got going 1500 fpm, the chairs would move at 300 fpm in the terminals. But as I mentioned earlier, a detachable in a rollback situation is never going to pick up as much speed as a fixed grip. The physics are impossible.


I’d still stick it.


----------



## MarzNC

One issue I heard about when the Ram8 stopped while I was on it is that if the bubble is down, a person has to manually climb down and release it. This was during the first season Ram8 was running. A group from Pugski/SkiTalk was on the lift together with a couple. The man wouldn't let us put the bubble down from the start. Wasn't windy or that cold that day so it wasn't worth arguing about. Don't know if what the man said is true or not.

What happened to stop the lift that morning was that when a chair reached the top, the automatic lift didn't work. They found the problem and re-started the lift after about 20 min. We had friends who had just gotten off at the top so saw what happened.


----------



## raisingarizona

MarzNC said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Probably beats trying to keep a lift that's over 20 years old running when you can't easily get parts any more.
> 
> I have a husband who keeps cars too long.


Good point.


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> I’d still stick it.


Me too


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> I’d still stick it.


It’s just going to give you more time to eye up your landing zone


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> Me too


Pervs ?


----------



## Brownski

New parts are still being made for old lifts. I think I remember the owner of Smuggs saying on the storm skiing podcast that a hill out west bought Riblet’s machining when they out of business.


----------



## snoloco

Not a ski area. There's a company called Superior Tramway that makes replacement parts for Riblet lifts, among others. They are based in Spokane, Washington, just like Riblet was.

Riblet rose to prominence back in the 60's and 70's, during a rapid expansion of the ski industry. There was demand for a simple, cost-effective, easily installed lift, and they provided that. The thing that most set them apart was that their grips were woven into the haulrope instead of clamping down on it. As the years went on and technology advanced, Riblet had changed their design very little. They simply didn't keep up with the times and couldn't compete. What's problematic today is that their chair, grip, and sheave designs are not compatible with anything else that's currently available. That makes it hard to overhaul a Riblet lift. You either have to keep it unmodified, or replace the whole lift from the ground up. A lot of lifts from out-of-business manufacturers had parts replaced with those of a current design. For example, Sunday River's Yan lifts all have Poma sheaves. You can't do that on a Riblet lift. If you replace the sheaves, you have to replace the grips and chairs.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> Not a ski area. There's a company called Superior Tramway that makes replacement parts for Riblet lifts, among others. They are based in Spokane, Washington, just like Riblet was.
> 
> Riblet rose to prominence back in the 60's and 70's, during a rapid expansion of the ski industry. There was demand for a simple, cost-effective, easily installed lift, and they provided that. The thing that most set them apart was that their grips were woven into the haulrope instead of clamping down on it. As the years went on and technology advanced, Riblet had changed their design very little. They simply didn't keep up with the times and couldn't compete. What's problematic today is that their chair, grip, and sheave designs are not compatible with anything else that's currently available. That makes it hard to overhaul a Riblet lift. You either have to keep it unmodified, or replace the whole lift from the ground up. A lot of lifts from out-of-business manufacturers had parts replaced with those of a current design. For example, Sunday River's Yan lifts all have Poma sheaves. You can't do that on a Riblet lift. If you replace the sheaves, you have to replace the grips and chairs.


Great stuff Sno.

A lift mechanic bud of mine told me he was concerned with the new lifts here over the last bunch of years. He said that they were all different and the parts weren’t transferable which obviously isn’t optimal.

We still have an old Riblet over on the Prairie.


----------



## snoloco

I assume you're referring to Arizona Snowbowl. There were 4 lifts built recently. Two detachables from Leitner-Poma, and two fixed grip quads, one each from Skytrac and Doppelmayr. There's nothing wrong with any of those designs, it's just that ownership didn't stick with one manufacturer when ordering the lifts. This means they likely took the lowest bid each time. It can make it more difficult for lift mechanics since they now have to stock replacement parts for 3 different manufacturers instead of just 1. Some resorts like to stick with one manufacturer, while others will mix it up. It really depends on the ownership and what their priorities are.


----------



## Sbob

Ripitz said:


> Being able to detach during rollback is like mustard on a shit sandwich. I always thought I could turn around and drop down to the ski bar and hang off until I could let go and stick the landing. Am I the only one who fantasizes about that? I might have watched too many James Bond movies.


I thought about that as well. I rode King Pine lift a month before the roll back. The one day it was making a lot of noise. 
I was on a 200’ rollback at Hunter in the 70’s scared the crap out of me. The kid I was with talked me out of lowering the bar. We were at the highest possible point when it stopped and reversed. The brake stopped suddenly an we swung back close to 45 degrees. I cursed him out and never ride without the bar down. 

Dam straight I’d stick it too


----------



## abe

Partek sells Borvig parts and am I correct that Doppelmayer, as the successor to Von Roll and Hall, sells Hall parts?


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> I assume you're referring to Arizona Snowbowl. There were 4 lifts built recently. Two detachables from Leitner-Poma, and two fixed grip quads, one each from Skytrac and Doppelmayr. There's nothing wrong with any of those designs, it's just that ownership didn't stick with one manufacturer when ordering the lifts. This means they likely took the lowest bid each time. It can make it more difficult for lift mechanics since they now have to stock replacement parts for 3 different manufacturers instead of just 1. Some resorts like to stick with one manufacturer, while others will mix it up. It really depends on the ownership and what their priorities are.


Yup. All of that.


----------



## raisingarizona

Sbob said:


> I thought about that as well. I rode King Pine lift a month before the roll back. The one day it was making a lot of noise.
> I was on a 200’ rollback at Hunter in the 70’s scared the crap out of me. The kid I was with talked me out of lowering the bar. We were at the highest possible point when it stopped and reversed. The brake stopped suddenly an we swung back close to 45 degrees. I cursed him out and never ride without the bar down.
> 
> Dam straight I’d stick it too


Ok, the anti bar down folks are a little silly. I like it down for the foot rests and I’m more comfortable with it down on the high points and the resistance from some is funny to me.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> Finally got to ride the Kancamagus 8 at Loon, often referred to as Kanc 8, and styled on the logo as Kan8amagus. It's a Doppelmayr D-Line model installed last summer. It's the third lift to serve the West Basin terrain at Loon, as it replaced a high speed quad, which replaced a double-double.
> 
> The lift statistics are as follows:
> 
> Length: 3992 feet
> Vertical: 1065 feet
> Capacity: 3500 riders per hour
> Speed: 1080 fpm
> 
> Flat light made it difficult to take good pictures, but I did the best I could. This was taken near the top of the lift first thing in the morning.
> View attachment 11922
> 
> The bottom terminal is inside a large building. This building also houses the chairs, which are parked inside every night. This lift is bottom drive, but you'd hardly notice. It has a Doppelmayr Direct Drive (DDD). The motor is attached directly to the bullwheel and there is no gearbox. Not only is this more efficient and more reliable, but it is also extremely quiet. There are return terminals that are louder than this drive terminal. There are loading gates and a conveyor. This is important because it helps to line up all 8 people so they all sit down at the same time.
> View attachment 11923
> 
> The top is a standard Doppelmayr D-Line station.
> View attachment 11925
> 
> The lower section of the lift, taken late in the day.
> View attachment 11924
> 
> This lift has individual seats with contoured backs. And yes, they are heated. It seems to work better on some chairs than others, but is definitely noticeable, particularly on cold days like the day I took these pictures. The bubble of course does a great job keeping the wind out, and since 8 pack chairs are very heavy, the lift will almost never go on wind hold. The safety bar locks in place once it is down, and each foot rest has a bar between your legs, so it is impossible to fall out. The safety bar and bubble automatically raise at the top.
> View attachment 11926
> 
> Last but not least, this lift has excellent capacity. Even with no organization (European style line for European style lift), the line pictured was under 12 minutes. Also, just look at the size of the bottom terminal. It's as big as the lodge, if not bigger.
> View attachment 11927


Nice pics!


----------



## x10003q

Sbob said:


> I thought about that as well. I rode King Pine lift a month before the roll back. The one day it was making a lot of noise.
> I was on a 200’ rollback at Hunter in the 70’s scared the crap out of me. The kid I was with talked me out of lowering the bar. We were at the highest possible point when it stopped and reversed. The brake stopped suddenly an we swung back close to 45 degrees. I cursed him out and never ride without the bar down.
> 
> Dam straight I’d stick it too


When I was racing in college, one of my teammates was in the civil engineering program and worked for a lift install company during the summer. He was always going on about roll back and how much time you have to make the decision to get off and picking landing spots. One time a lift stopped and he was talking about lifting bar. I told him if he lifted the bar he better have a good landing spot because I was going to throw him off the chair. The funny part is I still think about how much time and landing spots all these decades later whenever a chair stops. That MFer is still in my head.  Thankfully, I have never experienced a rollback of more than a few feet.

I have not talked to him since college, but he currently has his own lift engineering company.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Where do we really need high speed lifts?
> 
> What problem are these lifts solving?


Kimberly needs one as an arson, allegedly, started a fire at their main quad that gets folks to their backside.
They’re asking folks to ride using snow cats (lottery system unless yer old) or walk up from another lift.
WTF.








						Northstar Express Quad Update - January 2022 - Kimberley Alpine Resort
					

Update – January 10th The Kimberley RCMP shared today that they believe the fire in the top lift control station of the Northstar Quad Chair in the early morning hours of December 18th, which made the lift inoperable, to be arson and deliberately set. This will be a difficult and painful fact to...




					skikimberley.com


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> Kimberly needs one as an arson, allegedly, started a fire at their main quad that gets folks to their backside.
> They’re asking folks to ride using snow cats (lottery system unless yer old) or walk up from another lift.
> WTF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northstar Express Quad Update - January 2022 - Kimberley Alpine Resort
> 
> 
> Update – January 10th The Kimberley RCMP shared today that they believe the fire in the top lift control station of the Northstar Quad Chair in the early morning hours of December 18th, which made the lift inoperable, to be arson and deliberately set. This will be a difficult and painful fact to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skikimberley.com


That is horrible. This lift is main lift and the only way out of the base area. They have some snow coaches that they are using now.


----------



## abe

I don't know what exactly they're using but snow buses are awesome


----------



## snoloco

tirolski said:


> Kimberly needs one as an arson, allegedly, started a fire at their main quad that gets folks to their backside.
> They’re asking folks to ride using snow cats (lottery system unless yer old) or walk up from another lift.
> WTF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northstar Express Quad Update - January 2022 - Kimberley Alpine Resort
> 
> 
> Update – January 10th The Kimberley RCMP shared today that they believe the fire in the top lift control station of the Northstar Quad Chair in the early morning hours of December 18th, which made the lift inoperable, to be arson and deliberately set. This will be a difficult and painful fact to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skikimberley.com


Kimberly did this to themselves (not the arson but not having any lift access). There were once 3 additional lifts parallel to the high speed quad. They removed each of them in 2001, 2003, and 2006 and they have no backup to access the rest of the ski area.


----------



## tirolski

snoloco said:


> Kimberly did this to themselves (not the arson but not having any lift access). There were once 3 additional lifts parallel to the high speed quad. They removed each of them in 2001, 2003, and 2006 and they have no backup to access the rest of the ski area.


Why’d they yank em all? 
Seems they could’ve used at least 1 of em azza backup, in hindsight.
Ya know what kind they were? Did they move to another place for some reasons?


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> Kimberly did this to themselves (not the arson but not having any lift access).



Seems likely the backup lift would have been hit at the same time. This wasn't just random FU, it was purposeful.


----------



## snoloco

The same thing happened last year where the quad was down for a long time, but it wasn't an arson. You absolutely need a backup lift if the primary lift is the only way to access the ski area.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> The same thing happened last year where the quad was down for a long time, but it wasn't an arson. You absolutely need a backup lift if the primary lift is the only way to access the ski area.


That’s a fair point.


----------



## tirolski

abe said:


> I don't know what exactly they're using but snow buses are awesome


They use these.








Shuttling Guests with Snowcats at Kimberley


Our goal is to provide you with skiing and riding so we are offering the Easter Chair, Tamarack Chair, Owl T-bar and Magic Carpet supported by snowcats.




powdercanada.com


----------



## snoloco

raisingarizona said:


> That’s a fair point.


What Kimberly did would be the equivalent of Whiteface removing the Facelift, Freeway, and Warhorse lifts so that the gondola was the only way to access the upper mountain and if it was down for any reason, the entire ski area would be closed.


----------



## Ripitz

snoloco said:


> What Kimberly did would be the equivalent of Whiteface removing the Facelift, Freeway, and Warhorse lifts so that the gondola was the only way to access the upper mountain and if it was down for any reason, the entire ski area would be closed.


Cat skiing Whiteface would be awesome, jussayin’.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Ripitz said:


> Cat skiing Whiteface would be awesome, jussayin’.


You’re a real glass half full kind of guy, aren’t you 

mm


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Cat skiing Whiteface would be awesome, jussayin’.


Old folks get 1st dibs.


----------



## snoloco

I skied at Pico today. As anyone who's been there will know, the vast majority of their terrain is served by the two high speed quads. If either one goes down, you're kinda screwed. Particularly, the Summit Express serves about 40% of Pico's terrain with no backup lift. The lower lift, the Golden Express serves no advanced terrain.

They have something called the Summit Guarantee for if the Summit Express is down. If it's closed for maintenance or weather and will be down for a while, management will call a "Summit guarantee". This means that all tickets and passes normally only valid at Pico will also be valid at Killington that day. I'm not aware of a similar program at any other resort.


----------



## Brownski

Those Pico lifts are pretty old for detachables. What would be your upgrade plan for Pico if you were in charge, Sno?


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## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> Those Pico lifts are pretty old for detachables. What would be your upgrade plan for Pico if you were in charge, Sno?


Wasn’t the Pico summit chair the first detach on the east coast?


----------



## Brownski

raisingarizona said:


> Wasn’t the Pico summit chair the first detach on the east coast?


I don't know but maybe. I believe they're both from the eighties
edit: I looked it up. They were installed in ‘87 and ‘88


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Those Pico lifts are pretty old for detachables. What would be your upgrade plan for Pico if you were in charge, Sno?


Can betchurass all open by Xmas


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> I don't know but maybe. I believe they're both from the eighties
> edit: I looked it up. They were installed in ‘87 and ‘88


Stowes 4runner was the first in New England, installed in 86.


----------



## snoloco

The Yan detachables at Pico were built in 1987 and 1988. Not the first detachable chairlift in the Northeast. That was the original Adirondack Express at Gore, built in 1984. The first high speed quad in the Northeast was the original Fourrunner at Stowe, built in 1986. 1987 was a big year for detachables in the Northeast. Hunter opened their high speed quad, built by Poma, and 5 Yan high speed quads were installed, with two at Killington and one each at Pico, Mount Snow, and Sunday River. 1988 marked the debut of the second Yan detachable at Pico, plus the Stratton Gondola, Loon Gondola, and Summit Express at Waterville Valley.


----------



## ne_skier

Pico does have some very rare fixed grips however - Outpost and Bonanza are the last two remaining original Carlevaro-Savio chairlifts


----------



## snoloco

ne_skier said:


> Pico does have some very rare fixed grips however - Outpost and Bonanza are the last two remaining original Carlevaro-Savio chairlifts.


I believe they are the only ones that still have the original chairs. There are a few others out there that have had the chairs replaced or received other modifications. When you think of it, Pico's lifts really come in pairs. They have two Carlevaro and Savio doubles, two Hall triples, and two Yan high speed quads.


----------



## tirolski

snoloco said:


> Finally got to ride the Kancamagus 8 at Loon, often referred to as Kanc 8, and styled on the logo as Kan8amagus. It's a Doppelmayr D-Line model installed last summer. It's the third lift to serve the West Basin terrain at Loon, as it replaced a high speed quad, which replaced a double-double.
> 
> The lift statistics are as follows:
> 
> Length: 3992 feet
> Vertical: 1065 feet
> Capacity: 3500 riders per hour
> Speed: 1080 fpm
> 
> Flat light made it difficult to take good pictures, but I did the best I could. This was taken near the top of the lift first thing in the morning.
> View attachment 11922
> 
> The bottom terminal is inside a large building. This building also houses the chairs, which are parked inside every night. This lift is bottom drive, but you'd hardly notice. It has a Doppelmayr Direct Drive (DDD). The motor is attached directly to the bullwheel and there is no gearbox. Not only is this more efficient and more reliable, but it is also extremely quiet. There are return terminals that are louder than this drive terminal. There are loading gates and a conveyor. This is important because it helps to line up all 8 people so they all sit down at the same time.
> View attachment 11923
> 
> The top is a standard Doppelmayr D-Line station.
> View attachment 11925
> 
> The lower section of the lift, taken late in the day.
> View attachment 11924
> 
> This lift has individual seats with contoured backs. And yes, they are heated. It seems to work better on some chairs than others, but is definitely noticeable, particularly on cold days like the day I took these pictures. The bubble of course does a great job keeping the wind out, and since 8 pack chairs are very heavy, the lift will almost never go on wind hold. The safety bar locks in place once it is down, and each foot rest has a bar between your legs, so it is impossible to fall out. The safety bar and bubble automatically raise at the top.
> View attachment 11926
> 
> Last but not least, this lift has excellent capacity. Even with no organization (European style line for European style lift), the line pictured was under 12 minutes. Also, just look at the size of the bottom terminal. It's as big as the lodge, if not bigger.
> View attachment 11927


Seems they read your writeup Sno and then added somethings.








						Skiing: Loon Mountain offers a peek at innovations coming to Maine resorts
					

The New Hampshire ski area is owned by Boyne Resorts, which also owns Sunday River, Sugarloaf and, now, Shawnee Peak, in Maine.




					www.pressherald.com


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> That was the original Adirondack Express at Gore, built in 1984.


It lasted a long time.


----------



## tirolski

Anybody understand Korean?


----------



## snoloco

I don't, but this the first time I've seen a detachable roll back. Note that it did not pick up nearly as much speed as a fixed grip would. The lift this happened on is a Poma high speed quad from the early 90's. At that time, Poma did not design their lifts to allow for reverse operation like Doppelmayr did. However, the grips should still work in reverse. My guess is that the chair pileup was caused by a spacing clutch which wouldn't advance a chair in reverse, so it got stuck and all the other chairs piled up.


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> Anybody understand Korean?


FKNA. Terrifying. Looks like the guy in yellow at 0:47 sticks it.


----------



## tirolski

More here.








						Lift Rollback Causes Injuries, Damage in South Korea
					

Authorities in South Korea say a rollback at the Bears Town ski resort involved approximately 100 people. The mountain’s base-to-summit detachable quad went backward at approximately 3:00 pm …




					liftblog.com


----------



## D.B. Cooper

snoloco said:


> My guess is that the chair pileup was caused by a spacing clutch which wouldn't advance a chair in reverse, so it got stuck and all the other chairs piled up.


Them f'n spacing clutches again.


----------



## snoloco

It has been discussed previously how detachables have a shorter service life than fixed grips. That's not necessarily true. A detachable can last just as long as a fixed grip, but at around 25-30 years, detachables start to require extensive component replacement. This can mean various moving terminal parts, but can also include full carrier replacement. These upgrades are sometimes not considered worth it, so the lift is just replaced, particularly if parts are hard to come by, like Gore's Adirondack Express 1. What I find interesting in every construction season is how some lifts end up getting scrapped that I think for sure will be relocated, while other lifts that I think will for sure be scrapped end up somewhere else. I think it really depends on what's out there, who knows about it, and whether they can act fast enough. In Vail's Epic Lift Upgrade, they are not relocating any lifts within the company, so anything that's not sold to someone else will get scrapped. The newest detachable they are removing is from 1997, which will make it 25 years old.


----------



## snoloco

Not every lift has to be a heated bubble 8 pack for me to like it. I very much enjoyed taking laps on the Outpost Double at Pico today. It was built by Italian manufacturer Carlevaro and Savio in 1969. There's something to be said about an old school lift serving old school terrain. It's a unique experience and step back in time. I've always been a proponent for upgrading lifts, installing snowmaking, and regularly grooming most terrain, but you know what, maybe it doesn't all have to be the same.


----------



## Brownski

Yup. That is a great lift/terrain pod there.


----------



## saratogahalfday

snoloco said:


> Not every lift has to be a heated bubble 8 pack for me to like it. I very much enjoyed taking laps on the Outpost Double at Pico today. It was built by Italian manufacturer Carlevaro and Savio in 1969. There's something to be said about an old school lift serving old school terrain. It's a unique experience and step back in time. I've always been a proponent for upgrading lifts, installing snowmaking, and regularly grooming most terrain, but you know what, maybe it doesn't all have to be the same.
> 
> View attachment 12375
> 
> View attachment 12376
> 
> View attachment 12377
> 
> View attachment 12378View attachment 12379
> 
> View attachment 12380
> 
> View attachment 12381


Every mountain should have a fixed-grip double or triple that serves mostly ungroomed terrain. Many still do, thankfully.


----------



## MarzNC

saratogahalfday said:


> Every mountain should have a fixed-grip double or triple that serves mostly ungroomed terrain. Many still do, thankfully.


Doesn't necessarily need to be all ungroomed either. Waterville Valley made a deliberate decision to move an old fixed-grip triple when they opened Green Peak instead of spending a few million on a detachable quad. There's a good mix of terrain so a mixed-ability group could enjoy it together. My guess is that on weekends, that lift doesn't get much of a line. At least not in comparison to the detachable to the top (almost) or the other base quad.

View of the rest of Waterville Valley from the Green Peak Triple


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> Not every lift has to be a heated bubble 8 pack for me to like it. I very much enjoyed taking laps on the Outpost Double at Pico today. It was built by Italian manufacturer Carlevaro and Savio in 1969. There's something to be said about an old school lift serving old school terrain. It's a unique experience and step back in time. I've always been a proponent for upgrading lifts, installing snowmaking, and regularly grooming most terrain, but you know what, maybe it doesn't all have to be the same.
> 
> View attachment 12375
> 
> View attachment 12376
> 
> View attachment 12377
> 
> View attachment 12378
> 
> View attachment 12379
> 
> View attachment 12380
> 
> View attachment 12381



Love the lift rundowns @snoloco. I broke out the post you did on the Skyeship Gondola, it was really cool. Seemed a shame to bury it in Killington Conditions. Your passion for and knowledge of the subject matter is appreciated.


----------



## snoloco

Harvey said:


> Love the lift rundowns @snoloco. I broke out the post you did on the Skyeship Gondola, it was really cool. Seemed a shame to bury it in Killington Conditions. Your passion for and knowledge of the subject matter is appreciated.


I thought I posted it here, not in conditions. Oops.


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## Harvey

snoloco said:


> I thought I posted it here, not in conditions. Oops.



Maybe it was here. I just thought it deserved it's own.


----------



## raisingarizona

Not every lift has to be a heated bubble 8 pack for me to like it. I very much enjoyed taking laps on the Outpost Double at Pico today. It was built by Italian manufacturer Carlevaro and Savio in 1969. There's something to be said about an old school lift serving old school terrain. It's a unique experience and step back in time. I've always been a proponent for upgrading lifts, installing snowmaking, and regularly grooming most terrain, but you know what, maybe it doesn't all have to be the same.


snoloco said:


> View attachment 12375
> 
> View attachment 12376
> 
> View attachment 12377
> 
> View attachment 12378
> 
> View attachment 12379
> 
> View attachment 12380
> 
> View attachment 12381


if everything was groomed out flat I would probably stop skiing. I love your posts and fb updates but sometimes while flipping through the pics of killington I think it all looks so similar and after a few hours there I’d probably get bored. I love carving and flying down a fun, rolling screamer but it’s hard to feel like I’m getting a work out, it’s just too easy!


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## snoloco

Killington is my home mountain, so I have a lot of TRs from there. Its also been a slow start to the season, and only just now am I skiing a lot of non-groomers.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Sno, what kind of lift is the M1 at Smuggs? I really enjoy that ride, it seems to have everything. At first you go thru the woods, then up a headwall. Then it's an exposed spine up to the to of Sallie's Alley. That lift, whatever kind it is, really can take a fair amount of wind be4 it has to be shut down. I've only banged off towers twice in my life while on a chairlift ride. One on the M1 and the other was the summit chair at WF. Both gnarly rides, imo.


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## snoloco

Campgottagopee said:


> Sno, what kind of lift is the M1 at Smuggs? I really enjoy that ride, it seems to have everything. At first you go thru the woods, then up a headwall. Then it's an exposed spine up to the to of Sallie's Alley. That lift, whatever kind it is, really can take a fair amount of wind be4 it has to be shut down. I've only banged off towers twice in my life while on a chairlift ride. One on the M1 and the other was the summit chair at WF. Both gnarly rides, imo.


It's a Hall double installed in 1963. It received a new return up top in 2002, and several towers have been lowered over the years to make it more wind resistant. I've ridden it, and it's quite fast for a fixed grip. It doesn't feel as long as it really is.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> Killington is my home mountain, so I have a lot of TRs from there. Its also been a slow start to the season, and only just now am I skiing a lot of non-groomers.


I thought that might be the case. My comment wasn’t directed at your skiing preference but was more about what’s available. Seeing your pics has had me thinking that killington has heavily handily bulldozed everything and graded out the character but I’m sure there’s plenty of natural stuff that’s been needing more snow. I have been impressed with their capabilities and the terrain they were rolling out during challenging conditions while many other places (looking at you epic) seemed to be struggling.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> It's a Hall double installed in 1963. It received a new return up top in 2002, and several towers have been lowered over the years to make it more wind resistant. I've ridden it, and it's quite fast for a fixed grip. It doesn't feel as long as it really is.


Thanks for that. What makes it fast? As I remember it doesn't stop a lot. Is that why it's fast?


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## snoloco

Campgottagopee said:


> Thanks for that. What makes it fast? As I remember it doesn't stop a lot. Is that why it's fast?


It's just run faster than most fixed grips. Most non-beginner fixed grips run at 400-450 fpm. M1 runs at 500 fpm.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

snoloco said:


> Not every lift has to be a heated bubble 8 pack for me to like it. I very much enjoyed taking laps on the Outpost Double at Pico today. It was built by Italian manufacturer Carlevaro and Savio in 1969. There's something to be said about an old school lift serving old school terrain. It's a unique experience and step back in time. I've always been a proponent for upgrading lifts, installing snowmaking, and regularly grooming most terrain, but you know what, maybe it doesn't all have to be the same.


I had to do a double take on who had this great post. Not that Sno is not capable of such, of course, but that it seems he's discovering another side of life.


----------



## tirolski

How bout a DolaGon?
No lifts.





dolaGon | Autonomous Utility Vehicles | Colorado


The dolaGon autonomous UTV (utility terrain vehicle) takes repetitive tasks in off-road environments and automates them, relieving valuable labor and maximizing efficiency.




www.dolagon.com


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> How bout a DolaGon?
> No lifts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dolaGon | Autonomous Utility Vehicles | Colorado
> 
> 
> The dolaGon autonomous UTV (utility terrain vehicle) takes repetitive tasks in off-road environments and automates them, relieving valuable labor and maximizing efficiency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dolagon.com


We used to ghost ride snowmobiles down the big powder bowls above tree line in Cooke City and ski down to them. Kinda similar and much cheaper.


----------



## tirolski

Nice write-up of the liftblog dude’s quest.








America’s chairlift savant finishes 22-year quest to ride every lift in the U.S.


Peter Landsman, creator of Liftblog and supervisor at Jackson Hole, has visited, photographed and documented 2,381 chairlifts in the U.S.




coloradosun.com


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> Nice write-up of the liftblog dude’s quest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> America’s chairlift savant finishes 22-year quest to ride every lift in the U.S.
> 
> 
> Peter Landsman, creator of Liftblog and supervisor at Jackson Hole, has visited, photographed and documented 2,381 chairlifts in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> coloradosun.com


That’s incredible. King of the lift nerds.


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## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> That’s incredible. King of the lift nerds.


Yup.
Flies out of Jackson to admire lifts at bumps & other people movers.


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## Harvey

Some of this is about the smallness (vert) of the hills in the midwest, but some very interesting points too.


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## snoloco

This video was well made and generally accurate, though specific to the midwest. In my opinion, under 3000 feet is almost always going to be fixed grip, and over 4000 feet is almost always going to be detachable. Between 3000 and 4000 feet can go either way. Also, there are exceptions where it makes sense to have a fixed grip over 4000 feet, or a detachable under 3000 feet.


----------



## MiSkier

Being in the Midwest if you go on a day or evening when that are not busy and you can basically ski right onto the lift a high speed is nice so you can get more runs in. With the small vertical you can spend 2/3rds of your day on the lift. Now if it is a holiday or a busy Saturday then the time you get in line till the time you get to the top is about the same.


----------



## tirolski

snoloco said:


> This video was well made and generally accurate, though specific to the midwest.


The bit about drinking beer on the lifts in the beginning...
C’mon man.


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> That’s incredible. King of the lift nerds.



@Peter is quite a guy.


----------



## MarzNC

Not quite sure this video belongs here because it's about how a gondola works. It's a detailed introduction filmed in Europe.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

I'd still rather wait 10 minutes in line for a 5 minute ride up than a 5 minute wait for a 10 minute ride up.


----------



## Harvey

You'd rather wait standing than sitting. 

Me, all things equal, I finds lift rides more relaxing than lift lines.

On an uncrowded day (no lift lines) you will get more runs/vert at Hunter than I will at Plattekill. If you ski all day.

These days, I only go all day if conditions are off the hook, powder, corn, whatever.

This all assumes that when you get off the high speed vs fixed chair, the snow conditions and skier density are the same. Someone knows the answer to that question, but I don't.

I acknowledge that I am in the minority on this.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> You'd rather wait standing than sitting.


I would rather stand in line. It is safer.


Harvey said:


> Me, all things equal, I finds lift rides more relaxing than lift lines.


I would rather be on and off the lift in the shortest amount of time. It is not relaxing sitting in high winds at below freezing temps.


Harvey said:


> On an uncrowded day (no lift lines) you will get more runs/vert at Hunter than I will at Plattekill. If you ski all day.


Yes.


Harvey said:


> These days, I only go all day if conditions are off the hook, powder, corn, whatever.


Oh my.


Harvey said:


> This all assumes that when you get off the high speed vs fixed chair, the snow conditions and skier density are the same. Someone knows the answer to that question, but I don't.


A HSQ or FGQ (at full capacity) can deliver the same amount of bodies to the top


Harvey said:


> I acknowledge that I am in the minority on this.


That is why we love you!


----------



## Harvey

My ideas are quoteworthy!

No doubt there are advantages and disadvantages to thinking the same way as everyone else.

Like any issue, how you frame the question has everything to do with the answer. I don't doubt that the majority of people (who prefer detachables) would answer these questions differently:

Do you like a faster ride to the top?
Do you prefer to wait standing in a group of covid infected masses or sitting with your girlfriend alone looking out at the mountains?

Regarding below freezing temps and high winds... which lift would you rather ride in BELOW ZERO temps with no wind? I've been on the Adk Express at times wishing they would slow it down. Which lift would you rather ride in the Catskills during winter storm Riley? Only two upper mountain lifts in the Catskills ran that whole day, two fixed grips at Plattekill. The best ski day of my life.

The whole issue of HS and detachable delivering the same amount of people to the top:

Do ski area owners spend millions more on lifts that are more expensive to maintain and don't last as long, because they want to deliver the same amount of people to the top?

I'm not against high speed lifts, they make sense in plenty of places, but not everywhere.

I'm now going to ban X for a week, because he will have great and compelling arguments for why I am wrong.

🤠


----------



## raisingarizona

“A HSQ or FGQ (at full capacity) can deliver the same amount of bodies to the top”

Damn straight. You can have a FGQ that’s totally loaded with more chairs on a line.

I don’t like lines no matter what kind of chair. If there’s a full maze I’ll go home. No lines and a high speed chair is the best especially if I’ve only got a few hours to blow.

I also rarely ski full days anymore unless it’s a sleeper storm day. Those are unicorns unfortunately these days. 

But whatever. I don’t really have time for skiing anymore and I’m losing interest more and more every year. For some reason desert loitering has been getting me a lot more excited, probably because I’m starting to really hate the cold 😂


----------



## SayvilleSteve

I agree with pretty much everything x10003q said. There are too many considerations and variables for me to say absolutely one over the other. Are the cushions soft? Is it windy? Are there footrests on the lift? Is it raining? Are we in a group that can chat in line, but can't on the lift due to numbers? Does the cable make a funny squeaking sound? Is there a beer in my pocket? Are there d-bags in line near me? Are there d-bags on the same chair as me? Am I the d-bag? Does this lift take me to where I want to go? If you can strip all of those variable out, I stand by my 'I'd rather spend less time on the lift" comment.


----------



## raisingarizona

SayvilleSteve said:


> I agree with pretty much everything x10003q said. There are too many considerations and variables for me to say absolutely one over the other. Are the cushions soft? Is it windy? Are there footrests on the lift? Is it raining? Are we in a group that can chat in line, but can't on the lift due to numbers? Does the cable make a funny squeaking sound? Is there a beer in my pocket? Are there d-bags in line near me? Are there d-bags on the same chair as me? Am I the d-bag? Does this lift take me to where I want to go? If you can strip all of those variable out, I stand by my 'I'd rather spend less time on the lift" comment.


Now I'm confused and completely stressed out. Thanks Steve, thanks a fucking lot man.


----------



## tirolski

What’s in a Comfortable Carrying Capacity calculation?
Park City folks are deliberating.








No decision on PCMR lift upgrades after marathon planning commission meeting


The Park City Planning Commission did not come to a decision on the fate of lift upgrades at Park City Mountain Resort Wednesday night, but will take up the issue once again next week.




www.kpcw.org


----------



## MarzNC

Nub's Nob carefully studied what to do for a replacement for a primary quad lift. The answer was clear . . . a Skytrac fixed-grip quad. It's being built and will be installed in 2023.

September 27, 2022








Nub’s Nob Announces New Quad for 2023


Michigan ski areas continue to invest in new lift technology as Nub’s Nob today became the latest to announce a project for 2023. Skytrac will build the new Green chair, a fixed grip quad rep…




liftblog.com


----------



## SayvilleSteve

There is no reason to have a HSQ on anything less than 1,000 vertical--Nub's is less than half of that--and you certainly don't need a six-pack if your vertical is 1,150.


----------



## MarzNC

SayvilleSteve said:


> There is no reason to have a HSQ on anything less than 1,000 vertical--Nub's is less than half of that--and you certainly don't need a six-pack if your vertical is 1,150.


Agree for Nub's.

But any generalization based on vertical alone isn't going to work. The HS 6-pack at Timberline in WV has clearly been a worthwhile investment for the Perfect family. Has been pulling plenty of advanced skiers from DC/NoVA back to Timberline midweek for day trips and others for weekends when it's more than busy enough to have a lift line in the mornings. Timberline vert is 1000, skiable acres just under 100 acres.  There are only two chairlifts. The HS6 to the summit and a new fixed-grip quad that goes about half-way up that moves pretty slow so beginners can enjoy the ride. Canaan Valley a mile away has old fixed-grip lifts.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

MarzNC said:


> as been pulling plenty of advanced skiers from DC/NoVA back to Timberline midweek for day trips and others for weekends when it's more than busy enough to have a lift line in the mornings.


Do the slopes get crowded though? My personal experience is with Jiminy (my 1,150 dig) and Camelback (~800 vertical) and they are the two most crowded places I have skied. In those cases there are several lifts that serve the summit, so I can see your point about Timberline and only one lift to serve the summit making sense. I also wonder (as Nub's did) how much time is being saved on a shorter high-speed vs fixed grip.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> My ideas are quoteworthy!
> 
> No doubt there are advantages and disadvantages to thinking the same way as everyone else.
> 
> Like any issue, how you frame the question has everything to do with the answer. I don't doubt that the majority of people (who prefer detachables) would answer these questions differently:
> 
> Do you like a faster ride to the top?


Yes


Harvey said:


> Do you prefer to wait standing in a group of covid infected masses or sitting with your girlfriend alone looking out at the mountains?


Not so worried about Covid especially standing outside. I don't have a girlfriend.


Harvey said:


> Regarding below freezing temps and high winds... which lift would you rather ride in BELOW ZERO temps with no wind? I've been on the Adk Express at times wishing they would slow it down.


You need to go to Smuggs on a below zero day and ride the 17 min Madonna Double so you understand what cold is really like. Those old 7000 foot doubles were all we knew and they are freezing especailly with all the stops. Ski areas used to hand out blankets to wear on these lifts to fight the cold (Stowe/Killington/Gore). There are only 2 choices: a 7000 ft high speed lift with an 8 minute ride or a fixed grip lift and a 17 minute ride. I will choose the HS every time.


Harvey said:


> Which lift would you rather ride in the Catskills during winter storm Riley? Only two upper mountain lifts in the Catskills ran that whole day, two fixed grips at Plattekill. The best ski day of my life.


The electrical supply vagarities of a once in a lifetime snowstorm in the mountains only means you lucked out.


Harvey said:


> The whole issue of HS and detachable delivering the same amount of people to the top:
> 
> Do ski area owners spend millions more on lifts that are more expensive to maintain and don't last as long, because they want to deliver the same amount of people to the top?


Yes and also for marketing. People also know that when the ski area is not at max capacity - they will get in more skiing. It is called skiing, not sitting.


Harvey said:


> I'm not against high speed lifts, they make sense in plenty of places, but not everywhere.


Yes.


Harvey said:


> I'm now going to ban X for a week, because he will have great and compelling arguments for why I am wrong.
> 
> 🤠


Thanks for finally removing my ban.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> You need to go to Smuggs on a below zero day and ride the 17 min Madonna Double so you understand what cold is really like.


This is true
I'll still take the old slow double every single time


----------



## SayvilleSteve

x10003q said:


> You need to go to Smuggs on a below zero day and ride the 17 min Madonna Double so you understand what cold is really like.



I was there last season on a day so cold that they didn't open Madonna until 11. I managed two trips on that lift and spent the rest of the day on Sterling. I still shiver thinking about it.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> This is true
> I'll still take the old slow double every single time


You just like resting those knees


----------



## Harvey

Is Madonna the lift everyone complains about? 

I tried to google to figure out the time but couldn't. Anyone know?


----------



## SayvilleSteve

Madonna is the longer of the two at Smuggs. 2000+ vertical in ~20 minutes (assuming a couple stops along the way).

According to my tracking app, the two lift rides I mentioned above took 13:04 and 18:03.


----------



## jasonwx

SayvilleSteve said:


> There is no reason to have a HSQ on anything less than 1,000 vertical--Nub's is less than half of that--and you certainly don't need a six-pack if your vertical is 1,150.


Nob could probably get away with a staircase


----------



## Harvey

SayvilleSteve said:


> Madonna is the longer of the two at Smuggs. 2000+ vertical in ~20 minutes (assuming a couple stops along the way).
> 
> According to my tracking app, the two lift rides I mentioned above took 13:04 and 18:03.


So if we assume 13 mins with no stops.... HS would do it in...how much?


----------



## raisingarizona

It's got to be longer than 13 minutes.

If I were a season pass holder at Smuggs I'd get kind of "over it" at some point doing laps on that thing, especially for marginal conditions.


----------



## raisingarizona

I stand corrected. It is around 13 minutes I guess.






You could easily knock off 3 or 4 minutes moving the bottom terminal up the hill to cut out the runout. Replace the chair with a modern fixed grip and you could probably be doing hot laps with a 6.5-7 minute ride? Total guesstimation there.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

Harvey said:


> So if we assume 13 mins with no stops.... HS would do it in...how much?



According to Lift Blog, typical high speed lifts go 1000 feet per minute. Madonna is 6,719 ft. Even at 800 fpm that's well under 9 minutes. 4+ minutes when it's below zero is a long time.









Will Detachable Lifts Get Faster?


There’s a lively discussion going on over at Alpinforum about the future of detachable lifts, which haven’t gotten much faster despite huge advances in technology over the last thirty y…




liftblog.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> You just like resting those knees


Damn right! 🍻


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Is Madonna the lift everyone complains about?


I'll take X's comment one more step. Not regarding the cold, rather you haven't had the shit scared out of you until you've banged off a tower going up the M1. Wind comes out of nowhere and will send you! It's wicked scary. I cried once.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Yes and also for marketing. People also know that when the ski area is not at max capacity - they will get in more skiing. It is called skiing, not sitting.


The potential owner motivations I see:

More tickets sold because of greater capacity
Higher ticket prices because of greater perceived value
Better customer relations because almost everyone likes HS lifts
Better beginner experience √

Is there another choice I'm missing?


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> You could easily knock off 3 or 4 minutes moving the bottom terminal up the hill to cut out the runout.



Makes 100% sense.


----------



## Harvey

SayvilleSteve said:


> when it's below zero


Earn em! 🤠


----------



## Andy_ROC

I still greatly prefer high speed quads though I've softened my position because of this thread.

My home mountain Bristol has two high speed quads that have 1100 vert and 3/4 mile long and both rides are about 4:30. They serve mostly blue and black with only 1 green way down. Great for blue/black hot laps. But the green is crowded and downright scary at times since it's only 1 way down.

On the southern side they have 2 beautiful wide long greens and one wide, very easy blue. But the only practical way to ride those (without hiking) is to take a fixed grip quad, known as the Siberian crawler. While only 522 vert and 0.6 miles it takes 8:22. By comparison it sees little traffic and I think it's because people a spoiled by the high speed quads.

While a high speed may be expensive overkill I'd love to see them install something like a poma platter lift at the top to connect the high speed quad to these easier greens.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Theoretically I like detachables but my favorite rides are all fixed grips: Castlerock, the MRG single, the B lift at Windham, Hickory Hill (the Poma is not a fixed grip, but still...) the old Rendezvous Bowl T bar. I way more enjoy Gore because of all the fixed grips going to different areas. IT's not really feasible to run detachables to all those places.
But I'm a cranky old man. I haven't liked anything that's happened in the last 20 years.

mm


----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> I've softened my position because of this thread.


Interesting. Explain?


----------



## SayvilleSteve

Harvey said:


> Earn em! 🤠


Oh I earn them, behind the wheel for 5-6 hours each way.


----------



## MarzNC

SayvilleSteve said:


> Do the slopes get crowded though? My personal experience is with Jiminy (my 1,150 dig) and Camelback (~800 vertical) and they are the two most crowded places I have skied. In those cases there are several lifts that serve the summit, so I can see your point about Timberline and only one lift to serve the summit making sense. I also wonder (as Nub's did) how much time is being saved on a shorter high-speed vs fixed grip.


Don't really know about Timberline slopes on weekends. Being retired, I only go there midweek. There is only one long green and one easier blue from the top, so a weekend morning when lost of the families are around could be a bit on the busy side on the trails. The old fixed grip double (really old) took 12 minutes if you were lucky. New ride takes about 4 minutes once loaded. Based on my experience with fixed-grip quads of about the same length, I would guess the ride would've been 7-8 minutes. Fair to say that the lift line moves a LOT faster with 6 seats and fewer people having trouble loading since it's a detachable. The new owners have been very successful with Perfect North for decades. They spent several years deciding whether or not to buy Timberline as the previous owner messed up royally. Understanding that spending money up front was necessary for long term success was one of their strengths.

I have thoroughly enjoyed skiing Jiminy Peak and Wachusett midweek because of the HSQ lifts. Also makes Waterville Valley more fun midweek. Wachusett is even more unusual since there are three HSQ, including one that only serves two long green trails. Really nice for beginners to be able to have a separate lift where they can spend more time on snow than riding the lift.

My point is simply that no generalization works when it comes to choosing the best mix of lifts. Magic carpets, fixed-grip lifts with or without conveyor loading, HSQ, and fancy detachables with 6 or 8 seats all have value depending on the situation.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> The potential owner motivations I see:
> 
> More tickets sold because of greater capacity
> Higher ticket prices because of greater perceived value
> Better customer relations because almost everyone likes HS lifts
> Better beginner experience √
> 
> Is there another choice I'm missing?


In certain situations, my understanding is that having a detachable is helpful when there is strong wind to deal with. Being able to easily put away the chairs in a "barn" when icing is likely has value too.

Note that when the Supreme triple at Alta was replaced with an HSQ, the set up for chair spacing and timing was designed to not increase capacity. That lift serves a fair amount of intermediate trails, in addition to advanced/expert terrain. The old triple stopped a noticeable amount of time because an intermediate had trouble loading. Conveyor loading helped a bit. With detachable chairs, rarely stops due to loading issues because of lack of experience.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> While a high speed may be expensive overkill I'd love to see them install something like a poma platter lift at the top to connect the high speed quad to these easier greens.


I thought it was interesting that Telluride had a poma lift as a connector given how many fast lifts they have. That lift served beginner terrain so it was so slow and on such a minor pitch that a boarder who was having trouble staying on could walk up faster than we were going on the poma.

Waterville Valley opted to save a lot of money by moving an old fixed-grip to serve Green Mountain instead of going with a HSQ. I gather there is rarely a line even on weekends. A nice section of "old school" that was actually a recent addition.


----------



## raisingarizona

SayvilleSteve said:


> Oh I earn them, behind the wheel for 5-6 hours each way.


And working all week so you can enjoy a day of skiing on your weekend. 

I say something like this when the xc mtbers tell me to earn my downhills instead of doing shuttles. It's like dude......I worked hard all week to do this, why make it harder?


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> In certain situations, my understanding is that having a detachable is helpful when there is strong wind to deal with. Being able to easily put away the chairs in a "barn" when icing is likely has value too.
> 
> Note that when the Supreme triple at Alta was replaced with an HSQ, the set up for chair spacing and timing was designed to not increase capacity. That lift serves a fair amount of intermediate trails, in addition to advanced/expert terrain. The old triple stopped a noticeable amount of time because an intermediate had trouble loading. Conveyor loading helped a bit. With detachable chairs, rarely stops due to loading issues because of lack of experience.


Still trying to get at the owners motivation. It's a sincere question.

At Gore, the two HS chairs out of the base make total sense when the mountain is really open. Half the people who ride to the up on the quad or gondi won't come back down, so it helps to quickly spread people out and diminish lines. I'm sure that Gore does more skier visits on that kind of a busy day, with those lifts in play.

But I'm looking to understand the primary motivation of a private business (where expenses hit the owners). I don't think it's the icing.

What the cost a of new Leitner Poma 4 now? Have they been hit with the same inflation we are seeing for cars and everything else?


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Still trying to get at the owners motivation. It's a sincere question.


In some cases, there is another factor for 4-season resorts that has nothing to do with the ski season. It's a lot easier to load tourists onto a detachable lift during the green season. With the price of those tickets, I assume it's not that hard to make money even if only running the lift 2-3 days a week. While running a fixed-grip lift slow enough for safe walk-on loading and unloading can make for a nice ride, it can also be too long. My husband enjoyed the ride up the Jiminy Peak 6-pack when we stopped by one fall after visiting our daughter at her prep school in Boston, but he was still quite ready to get to the top.

One advantage of a chondola over a chairlift is that during the summer people who don't want to ride on an open chair may be willing to ride in a gondola. I got my friend's husband to ride the Whiteface gondola during a fall trip. He's so scared of heights, there is no way he would even get on a chairlift.


----------



## Harvey

Some good points. Also could be good for weddings.

Still emphasis on summer ops seems newer than HS lifts.


----------



## raisingarizona

MarzNC said:


> In some cases, there is another factor for 4-season resorts that has nothing to do with the ski season. It's a lot easier to load tourists onto a detachable lift during the green season. With the price of those tickets, I assume it's not that hard to make money even if only running the lift 2-3 days a week. While running a fixed-grip lift slow enough for safe walk-on loading and unloading can make for a nice ride, it can also be too long. My husband enjoyed the ride up the Jiminy Peak 6-pack when we stopped by one fall after visiting our daughter at her prep school in Boston, but he was still quite ready to get to the top.
> 
> One advantage of a chondola over a chairlift is that during the summer people who don't want to ride on an open chair may be willing to ride in a gondola. I got my friend's husband to ride the Whiteface gondola during a fall trip. He's so scared of heights, there is no way he would even get on a chairlift.


I'm sure this is why Coleman went with the Chondola for Snowbowl. Before the upgrades and the explosion of skier visits I was told that the summer sky ride was their reliable income source. 

HS chairs are awesome for young children, families and beginners. Maybe not the six seaters so much. I've been taken out by beginner snowboarders by them running my skis over as they try not to fall themselves while getting off that lift. 

HS chairs are also awesome for those of us that live close to our home mountain. Many of us don't ski the weekends and opt for half day or a couple of hour sessions mid-week and a HS lift gives us an opportunity to get a bunch of vertical in a short window. For a lot of us it's the only way we can ski. I get it, if you're primarily a weekend skier you're probably skiing full days and your overall vertical per hour may not seem as much of a factor. 

Powder preservation? What difference does it make? You'll get the same amount of powder turns in regardless, just maybe instead of 5 hours you get that same amount in 2. Then you can spend the rest of your day working on your bump technique in soft moguls.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> But I'm a cranky old man. I haven't liked anything that's happened in the last 20 years.
> 
> mm


LoL
I don't consider myself old and I agree with you MM 👍🏻


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> Powder preservation? What difference does it make? You'll get the same amount of powder turns in regardless, just maybe instead of 5 hours you get that same amount in 2. Then you can spend the rest of your day working on your bump technique in soft moguls.



One nice thing about skiing in CNY is that this is never an issue.....LoL


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Still emphasis on summer ops seems newer than HS lifts.


When do you think summer ops became a priority in New York ski areas/resorts? It's relatively recent in the west where most resorts use US Forest Service land due to the changes in the rules that didn't happen until around 2014. There are resorts that have been 4-season for decades, or at least had revenue generating activities during the summer months.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

MarzNC said:


> When do you think summer ops became a priority in New York ski areas/resorts?


Probably when they look at the numbers and see no growth in the sport, when many talk about there being much less/more volatile winters in the future. This, and when the existing lifts reach end-of-life, they start to think about how things can be done differently.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> When do you think summer ops became a priority in New York ski areas/resorts?


This was just a guess. Gore got a HS lift in 1964 (I think), it seems like the increased emphasis on summer ops is more recent.


----------



## raisingarizona

MarzNC said:


> When do you think summer ops became a priority in New York ski areas/resorts? It's relatively recent in the west where most resorts use US Forest Service land due to the changes in the rules that didn't happen until around 2014. There are resorts that have been 4-season for decades, or at least had revenue generating activities during the summer months.











President Obama Signs Ski Area Summer Use Bill Into Law


On Monday, November 7th, President Obama signed the Ski Area Recreational Opportunity Enhancement Act into law (S. 382/H.R. 765 or SAROEA? No cool acronym this time). The bill aims to streamline th…



unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> This was just a guess. Gore got a HS lift in 1964 (I think), it seems like the increased emphasis on summer ops is more recent.


Gore got the HS triple in 1984. The HS triple replaced a double that was installed in the early 1960s (1964?). The Red gondola was installed in 1967. The current Gore gondola was installed in 1999, Burnt Ridge HSQ was installed in 2008, and the HS Triple was replaced by a HSQ in 2014.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> One nice thing about skiing in CNY is that this is never an issue.....LoL


C’mon Camp. Are ya forgetting about our lake effects? Never is a pretty long time last I looked.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> President Obama Signs Ski Area Summer Use Bill Into Law
> 
> 
> On Monday, November 7th, President Obama signed the Ski Area Recreational Opportunity Enhancement Act into law (S. 382/H.R. 765 or SAROEA? No cool acronym this time). The bill aims to streamline th…
> 
> 
> 
> unofficialnetworks.com


It took a few more years before the Forest Service figured out exactly what the operational rules would be. That's why construction of ziplines or alpine slides couldn't start immediately after the bill was signed. Fair to say that the Colorado senators were lobbying hard for the bill and Rob Katz spent plenty of effort supporting it. Water parks, swimming pools, tennis courts, and amusement parks were not acceptable. The list of activities mentioned included mountain bike parks, disc golf courses, ropes courses, and ziplines.

2013-16 was when I sampled skiing in NY and New England, as well as went to several destination resorts in the Rockies. The difference in summer activities was noticeable. Especially since my home hill in VA was a 4-season resort from the start back in the 1970s. I remember following the development of summer activities at Berkshire East.

April 2014


https://mountaintownnews.net/2014/04/21/summer-ski-area-use/



October 2011








Udall bill likely to expand summer uses of ski areas


ASPEN - U.S. Sen. Mark Udall claimed Wednesday that a bill he steered through Congress this week will be an economic boon for Colorado mountain resorts by expanding their




www.aspentimes.com


----------



## MarzNC

D.B. Cooper said:


> Probably when they look at the numbers and see no growth in the sport, when many talk about there being much less/more volatile winters in the future. This, and when the existing lifts reach end-of-life, they start to think about how things can be done differently.


Installing more lifts that are beginner-friendly certainly seems to be a priority out west lately.

It was a top priority to makes it easier for beginners and the families with kids to navigate the base area. Taos now has two end-to-end magic carpets with tunnels, a gondolita between the Children's Ski Center and the main base, and Lift 1 became a detachable HSQ. That's the only lift out of the main base so advanced beginners and intermediates have to ride it. No conveyor loading though. TSV also built a Via Ferrata for summer fun.

Alta is about to replace a fixed-grip quad that serves the green terrain out of the Albion base with a detachable. Talk of running Sunnyside during the summer started around 2018. Alta didn't build anything special to generate revenue during the summer but neighboring Snowbird built an alpine slide on private land back in 2003. Park City had had an alpine slide on private land before that. Solitude wanted to build one but couldn't because they didn't have enough private land.


----------



## MiSkier

The former Boyne Highland's now The Highland's of Harbor Springs is going to be installing a D-6 high speed bubble chair with heated seats for a 3-4 min ride. https://www.highlandsharborsprings.com/blog/camelot-6


----------



## MarzNC

MiSkier said:


> The former Boyne Highland's now The Highland's of Harbor Springs is going to be installing a D-6 high speed bubble chaie with heated seats for a 3-4 min ride. https://www.highlandsharborsprings.com/blog/camelot-6


I think Boyne Resorts may have the most D-line lifts in the USA by 2024. They already have three at Big Sky plus the one at Loon.

I had a chance to experience Ramcharger 8 a few times a few years ago and it was pretty nice. Will be going back to Big Sky this season.


----------



## MiSkier

MarzNC said:


> I think Boyne Resorts may have the most D-line lifts in the USA by 2024. They already have three at Big Sky plus the one at Loon.
> 
> I had a chance to experience Ramcharger 8 a few times a few years ago and it was pretty nice. Will be going back to Big Sky this season.


Boyne is installing a D-8 lift at Boyne Mountain right now for the 2022/23 season


----------



## MarzNC

September 20, 2022








D-Line – Lift Blog


Posts about D-Line written by Peter Landsman




liftblog.com




_" . . .
Camelot will become the fifth Boyne destination to debut Doppelmayr D-Line technology. Big Sky Resort, Boyne Mountain, Loon Mountain and Sunday River all feature six and eight passenger D-Line detachables, many with bubbles and heated seats. While Alterra, Vail Resorts and other operators have also purchased D-Line lifts, Boyne’s level of commitment to the technology remains unrivaled in North America.
. . .

Camelot 6 will debut for the 2023-24 ski season. Once complete, it will serve both day and evening skiers as well as becoming the primary access lift for summer sightseeing and mountain biking."_


----------



## MarzNC

There will always be ski areas where fixed-grip lifts make the most sense.

Boyne Resorts has no plans to install a HSQ at the newly renamed (back to the original name) Pleasant Mountain in Maine. Turns out the current Summit Express triple came from Loon. The old Riblet Summit triple took 9 minutes. Presumably Summit Express takes less time.









Pleasant Mountain, ME


Click on a lift’s name for pictures. View in fullscreen↗




liftblog.com


----------



## Peter

MarzNC said:


> I think Boyne Resorts may have the most D-line lifts in the USA by 2024. They already have three at Big Sky plus the one at Loon.


Boyne has had the most D-Line lifts since the day the first one opened. No one will catch them any time soon.


----------



## riverc0il

MarzNC said:


> There will always be ski areas where fixed-grip lifts make the most sense.
> 
> Boyne Resorts has no plans to install a HSQ at the newly renamed (back to the original name) Pleasant Mountain in Maine. Turns out the current Summit Express triple came from Loon. The old Riblet Summit triple took 9 minutes. Presumably Summit Express takes less time.


Not sure about the ride time, but it does have a loading carpet, so it runs faster than a normal fixed grip.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> There will always be ski areas where fixed-grip lifts make the most sense.


🙏


----------



## MarzNC

riverc0il said:


> Not sure about the ride time, but it does have a loading carpet, so it runs faster than a normal fixed grip.


Massanutten (northern VA) added a loading carpet a while back to the slow quad that serves the long green trail that is also the access to the summit chair. The chair dates from 2003. (Thanks for the data and pictures, @Peter.) Doesn't really run any faster than before but stops less. Meaning it's possible to ride with no stops midweek and only 1 stop on weekends after 10:30am. Compared to 3-4 stops on weekends before.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Cabin Falls from Mont-Sainte-Anne Gondola


Photo credit: Jean-Francois Racine For the third time in three years the gondola L’Étoile Filante at Mont-Sainte-Anne is shuttered due to an incident. This time no one was injured when an emp…




liftblog.com


----------



## tirolski

New article about delays in the lift making world.








Supply-chain issues prevent yet another thing from spinning: new Colorado chairlifts


Supply chain challenges at overseas factories has delayed the opening of most new chairlifts installed at North American ski areas for 22-23.




coloradosun.com


----------



## Ripitz

Chairlift Ripped Off Cable In High Winds With Skier Onboard At Breckenridge


High winds at Breckenridge today caused a chair to be ripped from the cable and fall to the ground. The chair was occupied at the time of the fall. Thankfully, the person involved was not injured a…




unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> Chairlift Ripped Off Cable In High Winds With Skier Onboard At Breckenridge
> 
> 
> High winds at Breckenridge today caused a chair to be ripped from the cable and fall to the ground. The chair was occupied at the time of the fall. Thankfully, the person involved was not injured a…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unofficialnetworks.com


From the Liftblog News on Dec. 23:

_Breckenridge reopens the Peak 8 SuperConnect after yesterday’s incident. Updated statement from the resort copied below._



> _Breckenridge Ski Resort confirms at approximately 10:35 a.m. on Thursday, Dec. 22, a chair dislodged from the haul rope of the Peak 8 SuperConnect as it was reaching the top terminal. One guest was on the chair at the time and fell approximately 13 feet. Ski patrol responded immediately. No injuries were reported and the guest declined further care.
> 
> The Peak 8 SuperConnect was closed for the remainder of the day on Thursday. The resort’s lift maintenance team was on site at the time of the incident and worked with the Colorado Tramway Safety Board to report the incident.
> 
> At the time of this event, the resort was following all standard operating procedures. The wind direction was predominantly favorable for operation of the Peak 8 SuperConnect when it opened for the day at 10 a.m., however an abnormal wind gust across the top terminal, in addition to the chair coming into contact with components of the upper terminal, created the circumstances of this event.
> 
> Since the event, the resort’s lift maintenance team has conducted a thorough inspection of the Peak 8 SuperConnect and consulted with the Colorado Tramway Safety Board. The lift resumed operations at approximately 12:30 p.m. on Friday, Dec. 23._


----------



## DHA

Harvey said:


> You can run it at top speed. I hate those things, they are somehow counter intuitive, to me.


Why? Gate opens, you slowly move forward in lane.


----------



## DHA

Brownski said:


> Berkshire East has one and it works perfectly there. The one at Greek was fine last year- way better than the first time I went there. Once the Lifties and skiers get used to them, there’s no problem.


The one at Greek doesn't go any faster than old Chair 1 that is next to it. It stops less because the carpet and gates make loading simpler. The lift isn't run as fast as it can go.


----------



## DHA

MarzNC said:


> When do you think summer ops became a priority in New York ski areas/resorts? It's relatively recent in the west where most resorts use US Forest Service land due to the changes in the rules that didn't happen until around 2014. There are resorts that have been 4-season for decades, or at least had revenue generating activities during the summer months.


Summer operations became important at Greek about 15 years ago when they put in the lake, water park, adventure center, and bike trails. Latest additions are campground and wedding center. Winter improvements have also been made to snowmaking, lifts and trails but obviously the place is trying to do 4 seasons. And there are plenty of golf courses nearby.


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## MarzNC

DHA said:


> Summer operations became important at Greek about 15 years ago when they put in the lake, water park, adventure center, and bike trails. Latest additions are campground and wedding center. Winter improvements have also been made to snowmaking, lifts and trails but obviously the place is trying to do 4 seasons. And there are plenty of golf courses nearby.


Interesting . . . That's about the same era when Massanutten opened up the indoor/outdoor waterpark. Planning and actual construction took about a decade. Mountain biking trails for lift-served MTB were created around the slopes a few years afterward. Massanutten started as a 4-season resort in the early 1970s with a ski hill, along with a golf course and outdoor pool on the mountain. The original owner wasn't smart and went bankrupt after buying the Lake Placid Club Lodge property to convert it a timeshare resort. The Massanutten property included thousands of acres for potential future expansion or green space. Made it easy to expand slowly into the valley with another golf course (easier), more timeshare condos, pools, and other activities.

In 2023, a high-speed detachable quad will be installed for the upper mountain. All the other lifts are fixed-grip. The original lifts from the 1970s were replaced along the way, with conveyor loading for the two base lifts that serve beginner trails. The new lift goes with adding blue and black trails from the top for 2022-23. They were in the original Master Plan but it took a long time to upgrade snowmaking infrastructure enough to support 100% snowmaking on the proposed additional trails. What's cool is that the senior managers for Snowsports are locals. A few have worked there since the 1980s in one role or another. There are new trail names that honor a few of the long time managers.


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## snoloco

DomB said:


> Apparently Whiteface's ability to get things going quicker after a storm is due to their storage shed. Not knocking Gore just sayin'



To avoid continuing a tangent in the Gore Conditions thread:

Indoor storage is absolutely essential for gondolas and bubble chairs. Not only does it make it a lot easier to reopen the lift after adverse weather, but gondola cabins and bubble chairs can be damaged by extreme weather conditions or heavy snowmaking. Gore's gondola had at least a dozen cabins with broken doors today. Those cabins were unusable, causing the line to be longer than necessary.

Unfortunately, many resorts have omitted cabin parking on their gondolas. While it does cost extra and require additional space, if a resort is spending many millions of dollars on a gondola, you'd think they would at least invest in the proper facilities and equipment to keep it in good condition. If you compare Whiteface and Gore, Whiteface's gondola was in far better shape, even before the cabin replacement. Belleayre has no cabin parking at all, and I fear that lift is not going to age well without it.

For open-air detachables, most resorts get along just fine without chair parking, but it is still desirable to have it so that chairs can easily be removed during severe weather, heavy snowmaking, or for maintenance reasons. Indoor storage isn't necessary. Grip-covered rails are fine. Ironically, Gore has chair parking for the Adirondack Express and uses it regularly, despite the fact that they never completed the gondola cabin parking.


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## Campgottagopee

DHA said:


> Summer operations became important at Greek about 15 years ago when they put in the lake, water park, adventure center, and bike trails. Latest additions are campground and wedding center. Winter improvements have also been made to snowmaking, lifts and trails but obviously the place is trying to do 4 seasons. And there are plenty of golf courses nearby.


I'll say that I'm impressed the place is still open. When they built it I thought for sure it wouldn't make it 10 years due to the debt load it created. I guess it did put the place into BK, but it seems to be doing good now?


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## MarzNC

snoloco said:


> Indoor storage is absolutely essential for gondolas and bubble chairs. Not only does it make it a lot easier to reopen the lift after adverse weather, but gondola cabins and bubble chairs can be damaged by extreme weather conditions or heavy snowmaking. Gore's gondola had at least a dozen cabins with broken doors today. Those cabins were unusable, causing the line to be longer than necessary.
> 
> Unfortunately, many resorts have omitted cabin parking on their gondolas. While it does cost extra and require additional space, if a resort is spending many millions of dollars on a gondola, you'd think they would at least invest in the proper facilities and equipment to keep it in good condition. If you compare Whiteface and Gore, Whiteface's gondola was in far better shape, even before the cabin replacement. Belleayre has no cabin parking at all, and I fear that lift is not going to age well without it.


As I remember, when Boyne Resorts installed the first D-line at Big Sky, the indoor storage building wasn't ready for the first season. It's at the top where it was easier to make more space for that building.


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## DHA

Campgottagopee said:


> I'll say that I'm impressed the place is still open. When they built it I thought for sure it wouldn't make it 10 years due to the debt load it created. I guess it did put the place into BK, but it seems to be doing good now?


Yeah, so did I. The debt load DID put it into bankruptcy when the bank holding Greek's line of credit went tits up in the "Great Recession". The regulators called the loan and Greek didn't have (or just didn't come up with) the cash. 

But never mind all that... It's all good. The current owner got it thru an auction where nobody else was seriously bidding against him (and his former partner). They got it for a song and the bankruptcy erased all the debt Al and Wes had accumulated since 1960. 

Lately management seems to be making smart decisions. Janky old beginner Chair 2 was replaced by a (newish) 3 person chair that has a variable speed motor that everyone seems to really like. And since the original length of the newish chair was about a mile, there are enough spare parts left over (towers, wheels, and other things) to provide spare parts for existing elderly chairs. Three new snowmaking pumps, a new pump house and new air and water lines along Karyatis, Meadow, Stoic and Chairs 1 and Visions have been cranking out more snow than Greek has ever been able to before. Now they need to replace more of the ancient pipes sitting under the rest of the mountain.

Hopefully John will avoid the old adage that owning a ski area can make a small fortune out of a large one!


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## Campgottagopee

DHA said:


> bank holding Greek's line of credit


The writing was on the wall when not one single local bank would touch them.


DHA said:


> Lately management seems to be making smart decisions. Janky old beginner Chair 2 was replaced by a (newish) 3 person chair that has a variable speed motor that everyone seems to really like. And since the original length of the newish chair was about a mile, there are enough spare parts left over (towers, wheels, and other things) to provide spare parts for existing elderly chairs. Three new snowmaking pumps, a new pump house and new air and water lines along Karyatis, Meadow, Stoic and Chairs 1 and Visions have been cranking out more snow than Greek has ever been able to before. Now they need to replace more of the ancient pipes sitting under the rest of the mountain.


No doubt. The yearly ski side improvements are a welcome change. Some folks seem to lack patience wanting new lifts, etc, overnight but John is too smart for that.


DHA said:


> Hopefully John will avoid the old adage that owning a ski area can make a small fortune out of a large one!


LOL!!


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## DHA

Campgottagopee said:


> The writing was on the wall when not one single local bank would touch them.


Without a doubt nobody should have touched Greek (for a reasonable rate) back then. But then, I'd guess too many loans like Greek's is exactly why the bank went T U in the Great Economic Debacle of 2008/9!!! But it's all good for Wes! He's still got a job at the place he grew up, all the debt is gone! Poof!!! What a deal!


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## Tjf1967

DHA said:


> Without a doubt nobody should have touched Greek (for a reasonable rate) back then. But then, I'd guess too many loans like Greek's is exactly why the bank went T U in the Great Economic Debacle of 2008/9!!! But it's all good for Wes! He's still got a job at the place he grew up, all the debt is gone! Poof!!! What a deal!


Almost like it was government funded


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## Ripitz

Tjf1967 said:


> Almost like it was government funded


Poof!!!


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## gorgonzola

yea when Greek's_ first _financing deal fell through and the steel sat on a trailer for a year you'd think the writing was on the wall, or written in the snow in yellow...


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## DHA

tirolski said:


> New article about delays in the lift making world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supply-chain issues prevent yet another thing from spinning: new Colorado chairlifts
> 
> 
> Supply chain challenges at overseas factories has delayed the opening of most new chairlifts installed at North American ski areas for 22-23.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> coloradosun.com


Not only in the lift making world, but in every other aspect of running a ski area. I've heard that Greek has at least 6 fan style snow maker machines sitting in storage because of lack of repair parts.


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