# Poll: The Impact of the Epic Pass



## NYSkiBlog

Curious to know how many Epic Passholders we have and better understand our collective opinion of Vail's consolidation and the Epic Pass. Note that the phrase "ski business" refers to the long term effect. And yea, to some extent we are using the phrase "Epic Pass" interchangeably with "Vail."

Pick one of the first three (please), and as many as you agree with on the rest.

After you vote, feel free to explain your response below.

Only forum members can vote, join the forum and give your opinion.


----------



## MC2

I don’t think it’s conflicting, but I said it’s good for skiers and bad for mountains/ski business.

Cheap season passes are great. Mountains all over the country controlled by an enormous business conglomerate directed by a corporate board with extremely limited local knowledge is the opposite of soul… which I feel is needed for a mountain & for the ski business.


----------



## Harvey

Conflicting would be checking both:

Epic is good for skiers.
Epic is bad for skiers.


----------



## Tjf1967

I believe it is good for skiers... Much better infrastructure.. More flexibility.. less expensive. 
I even believe it will be better for independents.


----------



## riverc0il

From a pricing perspective, the Epic pass itself is obviously good for pass holder skiers (especially those that like to visit multiple mountains), but bad for day ticket skiers and single-mountain-skiers that see increased crowds at their home mountain.

Since the trend of acquiring more resorts continues, we must assume it is good for the member mountains. In the long run, I think the cumulative effect of every mountain needing to be part of a multi-pass will be bad for the industry, member mountains, and skiers. Though, I think we are a ways off from reaching that tipping point. So, basically all the checkboxes, depending on timeframe.


----------



## Harvey

The timeframe thing was something I couldn't totally figure out. The poll could have 30 choices, but I was trying to keep the number down. I did specifically say "longterm" for the ski business choices.

Please pick one if the first three choices.

Very interesting to me, so far.


----------



## Face4Me

riverc0il said:


> From a pricing perspective, the Epic pass itself is obviously good for pass holder skiers (especially those that like to visit multiple mountains), but bad for day ticket skiers and single-mountain-skiers that see increased crowds at their home mountain.
> 
> Since the trend of acquiring more resorts continues, we must assume it is good for the member mountains. In the long run, I think the cumulative effect of every mountain needing to be part of a multi-pass will be bad for the industry, member mountains, and skiers. Though, I think we are a ways off from reaching that tipping point. So, basically all the checkboxes, depending on timeframe.


This ^^^^^


----------



## Campgottagopee

I can't ever see myself waiting in the lines that Epic has created
Epic is bad for skiers


----------



## SnowSnake88

Campgottagopee said:


> I can't ever see myself waiting in the lines that Epic has created
> Epic is bad for skiers


I completely agree, in the past I would have chased snow at some of these mountains. They are now on my do not fly list (especially weekends). There is no way the lines they are creating and bad vibes that are associated with waiting in those lines is good for skiers, skiing, or business long term.


----------



## Campgottagopee

SnowSnake88 said:


> There is no way the lines they are creating and bad vibes that are associated with waiting in those lines is good for skiers, skiing, or business long term.


Spot on
Whatever soul is left in skiing, EPIC aka VR is sucking the life out of it. 
Long live the independent!!


----------



## tirolski

riverc0il said:


> Since the trend of acquiring more resorts continues, we must assume it is good for the member mountains.


... must ASSUME? It makes an ASS of U and ME.

The trend of acquiring more resorts continues just means acquiring more resorts is a priority of their business.

MTN stock actually went down 2.5% after the announcement of their latest 3-Pa acquisitions.

Vail Resorts Inc. has $1.78 billion in “goodwill" on their books and it’ll most likely go up after its latest buy.
Goodwill may not be what ya think it is. 
Acquisition can be an addiction.
Does Enron and/or Worldcom ring any bells anymore?








VAIL RESORTS INC (MTN) Goodwill By Year And By Quarter


This report will help you learn Goodwill history of VAIL RESORTS INC. (As you know Goodwill is a form of an intangible asset that involves a calculation of purchase price minus the fair price.)




www.netcials.com


----------



## Andy_ROC

There was a time I considered that it might be a good idea to have an Epic pass. Who wouldn't want to be able to ski at many mountains with one pass? But then if I bought an epic I'd base my travel around where there was an epic mountain, and I don't like that. I don't want to be tied down. 

Long term I see this as hurting the ski industry. Big corporate monopolies and the Disneyfication of skiing is something I loath. Squeezing smaller mountains and non epic mountains financially will force some out of business and ultimately leave us with fewer choices. This will result in higher prices and more crowding. Not good. 

Oh and in the meantime it was just announced days ago that VR just bought 3 more mountains. Ugh.


----------



## Benny Profane

I've been a big critic of Vail Inc. and its management, but, I actually voted that the Epic pass is good for skiing, in general, because its created a whole new pricing model that introduces great value to skiers like me. As the president of Steamboat and Alterra bigwig Rob Perlman said on Stuart Winchester's latest podcast, we are now getting full season passes to excellent mountains plus week long passes at many other quality places for less than what was the price of a season pass to just one of those mountains a decade and even more in the past. You cant deny the upside to that. Sure, its created problems, but, consider the alternative. The skiing business could be in much worse shape than it is if it wasn't for multi passes and snowboarding. They ain't making new ski areas, and many are on the brink of death.

My issue is with quality of management. I think that Vail Inc. is crudely run, with poor customer service and just seems to be on a mission to churn easy money into more acquisitions, with no real thought as to how to improve the experience on their hills. Alterra seems to be more discriminating in aquisitions, buying and adding quality mountains to the mix, and reacts to it's own data collection and customer feedback to make their mountains better places to ski for their customers, both local and destination. So, that's why I dont have an Epic pass, but I do have an Ikon. I'm flying out to Mammoth and Palisades Tahoe soon, and I'll be skiing Killington, Stratton, Sugarbush, and maybe Sugarloaf/Sunday River in the meat of the season, and, if conditions are good, driving out to Colorado late March early April to ski at Aspen, Abasin, and Copper. If there still weren't Covid restrictions in Italy, I'd swap Colorado for the Dolomites. That's a ton of really good skiing for the money. If only there was an Ikon pass for ski hotels.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

I have a Northeast Value Pass for the second year in a row. For me, it made sense from a cost perspective. I also have a Ski3 pass and a Ski Vermont 4-pack--I clearly hate paying retail!

I typically make it to Hunter 3-6 times a year anyway and combined with one weekend at Stowe it's a cheaper option ($525 last year/$475 this year) that daily lift tickets. A friend of mine and I are also planning an "Epic" day on the way up to Stowe. We are going to hit Hunter, Mount Snow and Okemo for a couple runs at each place on the way to break-up the trip, just because we can. At least last year, it provided access to the mountain as only passholders could ski prior to mid-December and had priority for reservations later in the season. Because I have the pass I am more likely to get out to the mountain on what may be a "marginal" day because it's a sunk cost (not counting gas--but let's not wade into those waters). There is also a discount on food, which is nice.

From a member mountain perspective, it's a mixed bag. People are likely going to hit the mountains on their pass with more frequency and spend money on food, beverages and maybe even parking. It may even get a passholder to check out a mountain they may otherwise not have gone to. If I ever make to NH, I will surely check out Wildcat over say Bretton Woods, because I have the pass. It also theoretically helps insulate them from bad years and can provide excess capital for improvements because they have a corporate backstop. So keeping a mountain from closing is a big benefit of corporate ownership. Theoretically anyway. On the downside however, is the corporate homogenization of the mountain and maybe even more crowded slopes. The former is definitely having an impact at Hunter, from their crappy website to the way employees are treated to seemingly less snowmaking. I am not convinced the crowds are really that much different (I remember skiing in the 80s).

Does the Epic (or Ikon) pass hurt the industry and/or independent mountains? I don't think so. If you are offering your customers a differentiated experience, like Plattekill, Magic, MRG, West, Jay, Smuggs, Elk, etc. they will come. I know if there is snow and terrain is open I am driving the extra half hour and shelling out actual cash to ski Plattekill and not Hunter or Belleayre (I don't consider Windham a credible option). If consolidation and the corporate environment save a mountain: great, if they turn people off, those people will seek out the alternative "soul" that independents can provide.

In summary, I think the "one size fits all" that Epic seems to be taking is not a net positive--there should be local expertise. Each mountain should have it's own feel and respond to local factors in its community. I also think the strawman argument some people make that Epic passholders only ski at their corporate mountains, want groomed crowded slopes and are sucking the soul of of skiing (https://www.tetongravity.com/films/in-pursuit-of-soul) isn't accurate or that helpful.

At the end of the day, I am going to a mountain based on conditions, terrain, distance and who I am skiing with. It's not that different from deciding where to have dinner--a nice local restaurant, a corporate chain or fast food. I know skiing at Okemo is like eating at Applebees, but sometimes it's the right choice.

In closing, I think there is a real fear that Jay or Smuggs get bought by a corporate and it will sucking the soul from skiing. While that may be true to an extent, no corporation is going to take away that feeling you have when you are out in nature and about to send it.


----------



## Harvey

SayvilleSteve said:


> I think the "one size fits all" that Epic seems to be taking is not a net positive--there should be local expertise.


This is a significant part of the efficiency that helps Vail cut the cost of the Epic Pass.


----------



## Low Angle Life

My own feeling is that the greatest negative impacts of Epic are felt in the East at mountains closest to major population centers (looking at you Huntah). 2019 was the final nail in the coffin for my Epic pass buying, crowds and lift lines were simply too much to bare IMO. I don't think Epic is negative for the skiers or the industry as a whole, I have a lot of friends who are casual skiers and riders (Christmas and Presidents day crowd) who would have just been day ticket buyers prior to Epic. Now these friends will buy the Epic local pass, ski and ride two or three of their usual weekends and get a vacation out west in. They may only be getting 6-8 days in per season, but their perception is that they are getting a great value with Epic for their purposes. For the ski industry, engaging this casual customer and getting them out an additional three to four visits a season is great, they will justify more gear purchases and etc.

Vail does a poor job with staffing, management and over all guest experience IMO, but if you were to ask the very same skiers and riders who I describe above about that, they likely wouldn't notice because their experiences skiing have always been associated with the big ski weekends. If you're willing to look else where, or are fortunate enough to have the flexibility to ski and ride off hours and weekdays, the experience can still be great. Most mountains cleared out come March, the casual types don't have skiing and riding on the mind as the season shifts to spring and warm temps start creeping back into the flat lands. Knowing when and where to get it is the key to having a great time out, something that I think most on this form are well aware of. My lady and I went to Huntah Huntah at 1pm on a weekday in March, pre purchased day tickets online for a little more than 40 bucks each, parked next to the lodge, rode for 3 hours non stop without waiting in a lift line and had a lovely dinner at Phoenicia diner after, great experience but you won't catch me back there unless its under a similar circumstance.


----------



## Harvey

One thing is sure, if you are retired, or local, or only ski weekdays it has a big effect on your answers.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

Low Angle Life said:


> Knowing when and where to get it is the key to having a great time out, something that I think most on this form are well aware of. My lady and I went to Huntah Huntah at 1pm on a weekday in March, pre purchased day tickets online for a little more than 40 bucks each, parked next to the lodge, rode for 3 hours non stop without waiting in a lift line and had a lovely dinner at Phoenicia diner after, great experience but you won't catch me back there unless its under a similar circumstance.



Like Kenny Rogers said...

Hunter is great in December and March. Non-holiday Sundays during Jan-Feb are a maybe, Saturday is a never. Pro-tip: park at Hunter North.


----------



## Ripitz

SayvilleSteve said:


> no corporation is going to take away that feeling you have when you are out in nature and about to send it.


Amen


----------



## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> One thing is sure, if you are retired, or local, or only ski weekdays it has a big effect on your answers.


Oh yeah.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Welcome to Disney...err I mean Vail


----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> Welcome to Disney...err I mean Vail



I had heard that was (opening?) on a pow day with a lift stoppage/issue. I don't THINK that line was moving?


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> I had heard that was (opening?) on a pow day with a lift stoppage/issue. I don't THINK that line was moving?


Yes I believe that is correct. I was just trying to find a ski line picture that reminded me of waiting in line at Disney


----------



## tirolski

Andy_ROC said:


> Yes I believe that is correct. I was just trying to find a ski line picture that reminded me of waiting in line at Disney


From yesterday’s MTN earnings call transcript.

_*Pass product sales* for the North American ski season *increased approximately 47% in units* and approximately 21% in sales dollars *through December 5, 2021* as *compared to* the period in the prior year through *December 6, 2020*, without deducting for the value of any redeemed credits provided to certain North American pass holders in the prior period.

*Pass product sales through December 5, 2021 *for the 2021-2022 North American ski season *increased approximately 76% in units* and approximately 45% in sales dollars as *compared to* the sales for the *2019-2020 *North American ski season through December 8, 2019, with pass product sales adjusted to include peak resorts pass sales in both periods.

We are very pleased with the results of our season pass sales, which continue to *demonstrate the strength of our data analytics capabilities and the compelling value proposition of our pass products. *

Driven in part by the 20% price reduction in passes for the 2021-2022 season, we expect that the total number of guests on *all advanced commitment products this year will exceed 2.1 million, *including all pass products for our North American and Australian resorts, representing *an increase of approximately 700,000 pass holders from last year and an increase of approximately 900,000 pass holders from two years ago*_*.*

Make sure ya get a nice fat fresh tracks pass to go with yer wine or you’ll be whinin in line.


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> From yesterday’s MTN earnings call transcript.
> 
> _*Pass product sales* for the North American ski season *increased approximately 47% in units* and approximately 21% in sales dollars *through December 5, 2021* as *compared to* the period in the prior year through *December 6, 2020*, without deducting for the value of any redeemed credits provided to certain North American pass holders in the prior period.
> 
> *Pass product sales through December 5, 2021 *for the 2021-2022 North American ski season *increased approximately 76% in units* and approximately 45% in sales dollars as *compared to* the sales for the *2019-2020 *North American ski season through December 8, 2019, with pass product sales adjusted to include peak resorts pass sales in both periods.
> 
> We are very pleased with the results of our season pass sales, which continue to *demonstrate the strength of our data analytics capabilities and the compelling value proposition of our pass products. *
> 
> Driven in part by the 20% price reduction in passes for the 2021-2022 season, we expect that the total number of guests on *all advanced commitment products this year will exceed 2.1 million, *including all pass products for our North American and Australian resorts, representing *an increase of approximately 700,000 pass holders from last year and an increase of approximately 900,000 pass holders from two years ago*_*.*
> 
> Make sure ya get a nice fat fresh tracks pass to go with yer wine or you’ll be whinin in line.


Exactly. Once they own the ski industry they'll go the way of the airlines... an oligopoly that can do what they want. They'll offer a bunch of ridiculous upsells for a mediocre experience in a cattle car.


----------



## raisingarizona

This is all very dependent on personal situations. So my thoughts are that it’s good for some but not for others. Like most things in life you can’t look at it as it’s black or white. That’s rarely reality. 

Personally it’s not for me. If I had a sweet van and two months to travel I could see getting the ikon for at least a season or two. The ikon offerings are a lot more attractive to me. Vail resorts sound like a big pia with parking fees, crowds and 18 dollar hamburgers. That’s enough to keep me away, especially for areas I’ve never been interested in.


----------



## Woodski12

Hate the crowds but the alternative has consequences and there are always complaints. Second best deal in America for almost 20 years. Cannot be #1 because the 9pm to 10pm hour on a weeknight in WNY is the best time and place to ski ever.


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

Harvey said:


> Conflicting would be checking both:
> 
> Epic is good for skiers.
> Epic is bad for skiers.



I voted for all of the above due to the many of the reasons outlined by other commenters ?‍♂️. Personally I'm not doing a multi-pass this year but may get an IKON in the future. 

I do wonder if there is a breaking point at which the casual ~10 day a year skier has such bad experiences with Epic that they don't renew their pass and start going to the smaller mountains again. The pendulum can still swing back.


----------



## Harvey

Woodski12 said:


> the alternative has consequences


What is the alternative and what are the consequences of the alternative?

It's most interesting to me that when answering the question "is it good for skiers" the focus in large part is on the cost per lift ticket per day. (Not saying I am surprised by this, but that it is interesting.)

For me it begs the question - what factors determine whether or not you had a good experience? I guess that many skiers can't fully enjoy the day if they felt like they paid too much? But what else determines the quality of your day? Ticket price can't be the only factor.

Leaving the social aspect aside, for me snow quality, terrain and skier density are far ahead of ticket price. If I had to pay Vail day ticket rates to ski Winter Storm Riley at Plattekill, or at McCauley Pow on my birthday, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and never think twice. During Riley Plattekill's credit card system was down, and they were only taking cash. I happened to have it on me, so I gave it to my buddy. That IMPROVED my day. Those are experiences I will never forget, I think about them all the time. Worth whatever I paid that day.

Also, just me personally I don't see how something can be bad for skiing, or bad for my home mountain, and be good for me as skier.


----------



## Woodski12

Harvey said:


> I had heard that was (opening?) on a pow day with a lift stoppage/issue. I don't THINK that line was moving?


Looks like Blue Sky Basin lift, so would not even need to be broken. It won't open until 11am to 1pm even on powder days. It is way at the back there so people will ski some runs to get there and start to queue up and wait for the lift to open. I think waiting in that queue is foolish but that is local powder itinerary talk. In between the bowls getting skied out and Blue Sky Opening, there is only one thing to do IMHO... 



.


----------



## Woodski12

Harvey said:


> What is the alternative and what are the consequences of the alternative?



Realistically? Who knows. Theory is that this would be more of a "powder for the rich, lift lines for the poor" scenario.


----------



## Tjf1967

It's been my experience even on the busiest day by one thirty in the afternoon things open up. Your can ski more in two hours now then you could in 5 20 years ago. Walmart and home Depot were going to put all the mom and pop stores out of business. They did for a while but the small shops are popping up all over the place now. I have a true value near my house. I was so pumped. I boughtt everything there. They were so poorly run I refuse to go there anymore. I drive 10 miles out of the way to go to home Depot now. That's business. These mega pass companies are good for the small hills they bring a ton of people into the ski scene.. The amount of capital thet dole out in lifts and snowmaking are not possibly for a medium sized mountain. That's good for us. The small mountains benefit cause lots of people just don't dig that crowd. Everyone is benefiting. When vail and iKon creator.. And they will the improvements they put into the mountains don't go down with them. People will step in and buy them for pennies on the dollar and the whole process will start over again.


----------



## Brownski

Tjf1967 said:


> When vail and iKon crater.. And they will, the improvements they put into the mountains don't go down with them. People will step in and buy them for pennies on the dollar and the whole process will start over again.


I think this is correct. It seems to be the natural circle of life in the ski industry


----------



## not2brite

Could be a positive for smaller/independents. The question is how many passholders that do get fed up with all the waiting/long lift lines/paid parking/overpriced food decide to look for alternative destinations. Or do they simply call it quits? My schedule mostly relegates me to a weekend skier. I hate waiting in lines as most things are rarely worth the waste of time. By finding this blog I have saved myself the maddening probabability of showing up on a Saturday morning at Epic/Ikon mountain and being greeted by all of the above. I bought season passes for me and my daughter to Catamount/Berskshire East, a Ski3 Frequent Skier card for a couple weekends @ Gore/Whiteface, will definitely give Plattekill a try, and will look to Indy Pass for a late March trip to Jay, Saddleback, and maybe something in NH.


----------



## Brownski

Or they’ll conclude that all the hassle involved with skiing isn’t worth it and they’ll quit- and not teach their kids to ski either.


----------



## Harvey

not2brite said:


> By finding this blog I have saved myself the maddening probabability of showing up on a Saturday morning at Epic/Ikon mountain


? ? ?

My work here is done.


----------



## Twinplanx

I only purchased an Epic 2 Day pass. But I clicked on it was the best option for me. I wanted to lock in a few days and try to save some money. I can't believe how expensive lift tickets are getting. I don't think Vail helping...


----------



## Ripitz

^^^ @Cork sold his Atomic Backlands with bindings and skins for $650 for access to more mountains than Epic will ever have. Sweet deal.


----------



## abe

One of my biggest gripes with Vail is that they have raised the cost of entry into the sport so much. It is hard to bring a friend or kid to your local Vail hill because of how expensive they have made day tickets, rentals, and lessons. They also effectively neutered the PA state 4th and 5th grade ski pass by withdrawing all of their areas, they stopped doing group sales for school clubs at their mountains, and they made night skiing really expensive, barely cheaper than skiing during the day. These are all programs that get kids and younger adults into the sport. Not only that, but it furthers the public perception that skiing is a rich white bro's sport. Other operations like Spring Mountain (Run by the local ski shop), Montage, and Shawnee are trying to continue a lot of these programs to keep the skiing population steady, but it's unfortunate if your local hill happens to be Epic.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> One thing is sure, if you are retired, or local, or only ski weekdays it has a big effect on your answers.


I think if such a poll were done in multiple regions, where someone lives would be a big factor on their answers.

Personally, I've never had an Epic pass. Have considered getting one for a single season to check out the VR locations in Colorado but in general I prefer Ikon/MCP skiing out west. Makes a difference that I checked out Sun Valley, Snowbasin, and Telluride before they became Epic Partners. Same for Northstar, Heavenly, and Kirkwood.


----------



## takeahike46er

As others have said, I think one’s opinion of the Epic Pass (and all the passes it has inspired) is dependent on the skier. On one hand, “unlimited” skiing is more affordable than ever, and I’ve observed a greater number of skiers cherry-picking the best ski days and leaving once the hill is skied off.

Among the losers are those who used ski when the passes were more aspirational. Powder days are a lot less valuable if half the skiing population can show up every time it snows 6+ inches.

New skiers and riders are the biggest losers. The sport is not easy to learn, and the expensive day tickets are not helping. I can barely get casual skier friends to commit to buying a pass/tickets in advance. Why would a new or new skier want to do so?


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> I think this is correct. It seems to be the natural circle of life in the ski industry


Thanks Brownee. Was trying to piece that together. The creator... fooled me. Now I get it.


----------



## tirolski

abe said:


> One of my biggest gripes with Vail is that they have raised the cost of entry into the sport so much. It is hard to bring a friend or kid to your local Vail hill because of how expensive they have made day tickets, rentals, and lessons. They also effectively neutered the PA state 4th and 5th grade ski pass by withdrawing all of their areas, they stopped doing group sales for school clubs at their mountains, and they made night skiing really expensive, barely cheaper than skiing during the day. These are all programs that get kids and younger adults into the sport. Not only that, but it furthers the public perception that skiing is a rich white bro's sport.


Vail Sucks.


----------



## Benny Profane

abe said:


> One of my biggest gripes with Vail is that they have raised the cost of entry into the sport so much. It is hard to bring a friend or kid to your local Vail hill because of how expensive they have made day tickets, rentals, and lessons. They also effectively neutered the PA state 4th and 5th grade ski pass by withdrawing all of their areas, they stopped doing group sales for school clubs at their mountains, and they made night skiing really expensive, barely cheaper than skiing during the day. These are all programs that get kids and younger adults into the sport. Not only that, but it furthers the public perception that skiing is a rich white bro's sport. Other operations like Spring Mountain (Run by the local ski shop), Montage, and Shawnee are trying to continue a lot of these programs to keep the skiing population steady, but it's unfortunate if your local hill happens to be Epic.



Wow, thanks for the detail. That's not good. Again, awful management. Makes no sense that they would buy these smaller mountains and treat them in the same way as their "high end" product. Brackenridge needs these families to be profitable, but they're putting a kink in the hose when they pull that.


----------



## sig

Harvey said:


> For me it begs the question - what factors determine whether or not you had a good experience? I guess that many skiers can't fully enjoy the day if they felt like they paid too much? But what else determines the quality of your day? Ticket price can't be the only factor.


Powder. would over pay for a powder day. even on the most crowed of them


----------



## Benny Profane

Yeah, but, powder with no crowds is the best.


----------



## Harvey

Benny Profane said:


> Yeah, but, powder with no crowds is the best.


Should I post that Plattekill pic again?


----------



## Harvey

Benny Profane said:


> Yeah, but, powder with no crowds is the best.


So yeah, snow quality and skier density. Epic is really about price, and only one aspect of price, lift ticket price.


----------



## sig

Harvey said:


> Should I post that Plattekill pic again?


Yes everyday until it snows


----------



## Andy_ROC

abe said:


> One of my biggest gripes with Vail is that they have raised the cost of entry into the sport so much. It is hard to bring a friend or kid to your local Vail hill because of how expensive they have made day tickets, rentals, and lessons. They also effectively neutered the PA state 4th and 5th grade ski pass by withdrawing all of their areas, they stopped doing group sales for school clubs at their mountains, and they made night skiing really expensive, barely cheaper than skiing during the day. These are all programs that get kids and younger adults into the sport. Not only that, but it furthers the public perception that skiing is a rich white bro's sport. Other operations like Spring Mountain (Run by the local ski shop), Montage, and Shawnee are trying to continue a lot of these programs to keep the skiing population steady, but it's unfortunate if your local hill happens to be Epic.


We're seeing the beginning effects of a monopoly. I don't know what constitutes US antitrust violations but seems they are moving forward creating an effective monopoly. What irks me is a lot of mountains operate on public lands. 
I hate to say it but it might be time to start sending some emails to your state and federal representatives about concerns of the Vail monopoly. I really have no experience in this area and I'm probably pissing in the wind, but I think I may contact my reps. The more people voice the concern seems could be better.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Andy_ROC said:


> We're seeing the beginning effects of a monopoly. I don't know what constitutes US antitrust violations but seems they are moving forward creating an effective monopoly. What irks me is a lot of mountains operate on public lands.
> I hate to say it but it might be time to start sending some emails to your state and federal representatives about concerns of the Vail monopoly. I really have no experience in this area and I'm probably pissing in the wind, but I think I may contact my reps. The more people voice the concern seems could be better.


As I've said in other threads, the duopoly effect is a natural side effect of the economic systems we live in here in the US. It runs rampant across many industries and is coming fast to those sectors where it is not already prevalent. BlackRock & Vanguard are at the controls not your state and federal reps.


----------



## tirolski

Low Angle Life said:


> As I've said in other threads, the duopoly effect is a natural side effect of the economic systems we live in here in the US. It runs rampant across many industries and is coming fast to those sectors where it is not already prevalent.


Vail’s new CEO was in a leadership position @ Pepsi. 
She knows Cola Wars and may not be out for skiings best interests and/or health.
Knows marketing, distribution, sellin shit to masses? Yup.


----------



## Ripitz

Andy_ROC said:


> it might be time to start sending some emails to your state and federal representatives about concerns of the Vail monopoly.


I agree, problem is they probably all have Epic passes.


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> Vail’s new CEO was in a leadership position @ Pepsi.
> She knows Cola Wars and may not be out for skiings best interests and/or health.
> Knows marketing, distribution, sellin shit to masses? Yup.



Yup-- someone whom built a career peddling shitty carbonated sugarwater to the masses. 



Low Angle Life said:


> As I've said in other threads, the duopoly effect is a natural side effect of the economic systems we live in here in the US. It runs rampant across many industries and is coming fast to those sectors where it is not already prevalent. BlackRock & Vanguard are at the controls not your state and federal reps.


Well there are Anti Trust laws and companies have been broken apart, heavily fined, forced to partially divest etc. This is initiated by our Representatives and the courts. While I have no confidence in any our Reps doing the right thing for constitutes, we can't complain if we don't ask.



Ripitz said:


> I agree, problem is they probably all have Epic passes.



Probably all comped too.


----------



## abe

Vail now owns 6/7 ski areas in southern PA and 8/19 public areas in the state. While I think this is the closest to a critical mass as in any state, I wouldn't quite say monopoly yet because there are still options in neighboring states, and smaller operations within the state, but they are as a whole farther away from most people. And as was mentioned, it is annoying that 1 of those areas they just bought near Pittsburgh is actually a state park contracted out - maybe they will switch the contractor for that area eventually.


----------



## Andy_ROC

abe said:


> Vail now owns 6/7 ski areas in southern PA and 8/19 public areas in the state. While I think this is the closest to a critical mass as in any state, I wouldn't quite say monopoly yet because there are still options in neighboring states, and smaller operations within the state, but they are as a whole farther away from most people. And as was mentioned, it is annoying that 1 of those areas they just bought near Pittsburgh is actually a state park contracted out - maybe they will switch the contractor for that area eventually.


Do you have the names of any the ski areas you're talking about? The more detail I can include in my email the better.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> I agree, problem is they probably all have Epic passes.


Lobbyists dole out a lot more than cheap Epic passes, just sayin.


----------



## abe

Andy_ROC said:


> Do you have the names of any the ski areas you're talking about? The more detail I can include in my email the better.


Roundtop, Liberty, Whitetail, Jack Frost, Big Boulder, 7 Springs, Hidden Valley, Laurel Mountain (State Park).

The only thing I could see changing honestly is the state trying to find a different contractor for Laurel, which Vail probably doesn't really want anyway unless they are trying to keep a monopoly on Pittsburgh. It's a neat but very small and weird little area that they got bundled with 7 springs.

This map has all the major ski areas in the state, I consider Big Bear private (open to public) since it is owned and primarily patronized by an HOA. https://www.dcski.com/resorts/


----------



## takeahike46er

Today’s gong show (1030am local):





They just need to invest in a few more 10-person gondolas, and it will be _the experience of a lifetime_™️. Nothing a few more passes sold in the northeast can’t pay for


----------



## Brownski

abe said:


> One of my biggest gripes with Vail is that they have raised the cost of entry into the sport so much. It is hard to bring a friend or kid to your local Vail hill because of how expensive they have made day tickets, rentals, and lessons. They also effectively neutered the PA state 4th and 5th grade ski pass by withdrawing all of their areas, they stopped doing group sales for school clubs at their mountains, and they made night skiing really expensive, barely cheaper than skiing during the day. These are all programs that get kids and younger adults into the sport. Not only that, but it furthers the public perception that skiing is a rich white bro's sport. Other operations like Spring Mountain (Run by the local ski shop), Montage, and Shawnee are trying to continue a lot of these programs to keep the skiing population steady, but it's unfortunate if your local hill happens to be Epic.


Jesus. I didn't know half of that. You're speaking my language though.


----------



## Harvey

takeahike46er said:


> View attachment 11256


An app that tells you lift wait times?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> An app that tells you lift wait times?


It’s Epic. EpicMix. Helps so ya don’t gotta go to know to be in the epic shit show.


----------



## takeahike46er

Harvey said:


> An app that tells you lift wait times?


A “solution” to a problem you never wanted in the first place!


----------



## tirolski

takeahike46er said:


> A “solution” to a problem you never wanted in the first place!


Yup.
But ya get that info ASAP while it tracks ya in line.
Gotta have The Analytics.





Director of Data Science


Director of Data Science




jobs.vailresortscareers.com


----------



## timbly

tirolski said:


> Yup.
> But ya get that info ASAP while it tracks ya in line.
> Gotta have The Analytics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Director of Data Science
> 
> 
> Director of Data Science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jobs.vailresortscareers.com


It's not about you, it's about rooting out the worst lift attendants that aren't meeting quota. Sorry, I meant "cast members", not lift attendants.


----------



## Epicone

Brownski said:


> Jesus. I didn't know half of that. You're speaking my language though.


The pa state ski association ended the fourth and fifth grade program, not vail, and Covid may have something to do with it, vail does a lot of early school programs, funded by the Katz’s


----------



## tirolski

Andy_ROC said:


> We're seeing the beginning effects of a monopoly. I don't know what constitutes US antitrust violations but seems they are moving forward creating an effective monopoly. What irks me is a lot of mountains operate on public lands.
> I hate to say it but it might be time to start sending some emails to your state and federal representatives about concerns of the Vail monopoly. I really have no experience in this area and I'm probably pissing in the wind, but I think I may contact my reps. The more people voice the concern seems could be better.


Does anybody know why the folks (KSL Capital Partners) who own the marketers of The Ikon Pass (Alterra) have under “investments” a link on their web page to Whistler-Blackcomb? asking for a friend.

KSL is a privately held outfit while the “owners” of W-B is Vail Resorts Inc., allegedly. 
Passes to W-B run thru Vail Resorts Inc Epic pass system...

Nothing to see here folks, please stay in yer designated line and/or lane. Have an Epic-Iconic day.





KSL Capital Partners


KSL Capital Partners




www.kslcapital.com


----------



## gorgonzola

Hmmph nope, these are the folks that just bought Blue Mountain and own Camelback in peeyay. All very hush hush as to what they actually own v. manage and where this is all going


----------



## SayvilleSteve

KSL has owned 24% of Whistler for the past 10 years. This press release doesn't make it seem very "hush hush."






KSL Capital Partners Acquires 24% Interest in Whistler Blackcomb Holdings Inc.


/PRNewswire/ - Whistler Blackcomb Holdings Inc. (TSX: WB) (the "Corporation") and KSL Capital Partners, LLC ("KSL") are pleased to announce that an affiliate...




www.prnewswire.com


----------



## tirolski

SayvilleSteve said:


> KSL has owned 24% of Whistler for the past 10 years. This press release doesn't make it seem very "hush hush."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KSL Capital Partners Acquires 24% Interest in Whistler Blackcomb Holdings Inc.
> 
> 
> /PRNewswire/ - Whistler Blackcomb Holdings Inc. (TSX: WB) (the "Corporation") and KSL Capital Partners, LLC ("KSL") are pleased to announce that an affiliate...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.prnewswire.com


So, when 75% of W-B was sold to Vail Resorts Inc., KSL just held onto what KSL already owned.
KSL holding onto MTN stock made them significant dinero.
Whistler-Blackcomb is Huge.

Ikon (_Alterra/KSL_)) and Epic are in bed together.


----------



## Harvey

Four years old:









How Vail's EPIC Pass Changed the Game


Vail is leading the charge to a more corporate ski industry- and they're doing so by making lift tickets affordable. What does this mean for the future of skiing?




www.newschoolers.com






> This idea of an affordable season pass across several mountains seemed ludicrous at first, but Vail saw the big picture; they realized that lift tickets are only a piece of the pie. With each new acquisition, Vail increases its number of season pass holders and in turn increases the number of visits to their resorts. When these people arrive at the airport they are being picked up in a Vail owned shuttle, staying at a Vail owned hotel, eating at a Vail owned restaurant, and skiing on rental equipment from you guessed it- a Vail owned rental shop. Vail has vertically integrated their resorts in such a way to capture every single dollar that guests spend over the course of their vacation. And while their customers may be saving money on lift tickets, they are paying for it big time in other areas.


----------



## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> Four years old:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Vail's EPIC Pass Changed the Game
> 
> 
> Vail is leading the charge to a more corporate ski industry- and they're doing so by making lift tickets affordable. What does this mean for the future of skiing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newschoolers.com


Nope.

First of all, as you pointed out, this is four years old, which, I'm pretty sure is pre Peaks purchase and the crude, blundering entry into the northeast after Stowe. Then, well, Covid, which is neither here or there, for now. Everybody got Covid. But, the Peaks purchase just proves that Vail isn't as calculating or well managed as the writer assumed, living in his nice little bubble in, ahem, Vail, and thinking that only young people can use Kayak on their phones when dreaming of that Whistler or Bali trip. Wtf? Such a hard life. But, anyway, he assumes that the Epic pass holder will be almost held captive when traveling to a Vail resort, just because they bought the pass. Maybe Vail. I've always said that's the reason so many tourists like that place, and locals, (not living in Vail village) hate it. It's sort of all inclusive and easy, airport landing to airport departure. Beaver, too, which is the same place, essentially. I sort of did it once way back, and it was nice. But, where else are they selling this service? Whistler, probably, but Breck is easy to do on your own, without buying everything from Vail. What have they done in the northeast? They dont even own anything outside of ski operations at Stowe. They were so desperate just to own a premier ski hill in Vermont just to pad this corporate ponzi they just bought the hard stuff to make money from, not the luxury items. Furgetabout a place like Hunter. Is Mt. Snow any different? Nope.

No, these people arent very imaginative at all, and I propose that, unless they come up with some serious plans, it will end in tears for them. They're a bunch of marketing and finance drones that are living off of really cheap money, like all of corporate America, and paying themselves well in the process. That's not to say I'm anti corporate ski companies and anti multi mountain pass. I've owned the passes for about twenty years (way back in 2002-3 I was skiing a very early incarnation of Epic in Summit, along with a Copper/WP combo pass. 600 bucks for a ton of skiing). I just think that Alterra has smarter and more engaged people running the show right now, and they seem to have a plan for what the future will be in 2030. Listen to Stuart Winchester's podcast interview of Rob Perlman, president of Steamboat and COO of one of their region's in the Rockies, and then listen to Stuart's interview of Tim Baker, the eastern region VP of Vail resorts. The difference is obvious. Perlman has a detailed five year plan for Steamboat, which, not my cup of tea, but, if you know the place, makes total sense for what is their primary customer. Baker really has nothing, not that I blame him, but, if you plop all of these small hills in somebody's lap, as disparate as Hunter to Mt. Snow to Wildcat, yeah, that's going to be hard to integrate, especially if you haven't even skied most of them, like he admitted. But, probably a good gig and pays well, if he keeps his head down.


----------



## tirolski

Hunter’s webcam has yet to be online this season.
Just some strange test pattern with the words “sorry for the inconvenience”.
Can Wail Resort'’s IT director fixit? Kids stream trailcams to their phones, just sayin.








Mountain Cams | Hunter Mountain Resort







www.huntermtn.com


----------



## raisingarizona

Conditions look sick at Hunter! Vail is gonna crush it during this Christmas holiday!


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Hunter’s webcam has yet to be online this season.
> Just some strange test pattern with the words “sorry for the inconvenience”.
> Can Wail Resort'’s IT director fixit? Kids stream trailcams to their phones, just sayin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mountain Cams | Hunter Mountain Resort
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huntermtn.com



They really don't want people to see that.


----------



## Benny Profane

Breck, I'm pretty sure, yesterday. Or maybe the day before. Whatever. This isn't even Xmas week. What the hell. 
Looking at the bright side, if that mountain and the whole ski industry isn't shut down by the end of January, we're cool. This is a test. Beep, beep, beep.


----------



## idratherbskiing

Benny Profane said:


> Breck, I'm pretty sure, yesterday. Or maybe the day before. Whatever. This isn't even Xmas week. What the hell.
> Looking at the bright side, if that mountain and the whole ski industry isn't shut down by the end of January, we're cool. This is a test. Beep, beep, beep.


I dont think we see a shut down unless we start seeing a lot of death in the vaccinated portion of the population.


----------



## Andy_ROC

idratherbskiing said:


> I dont think we see a shut down unless we start seeing a lot of death in the vaccinated portion of the population.



Even if covid didn't exist it seems Vail has seriously damaged the entire ski experience.


----------



## idratherbskiing

Andy_ROC said:


> Even if covid didn't exist it seems Vail has seriously damaged the entire ski experience.


Oh 100%!! they are also crushing the infrastructure of the towns and we are definitely going to start hearing about "Ambulance/Fire truck could not get to scene due to traffic on mountain road"

Vail Corp has their heads in the sand right now, they are seeing profit and a solid year end bonus in their bank account, everything else doesnt matter.


----------



## Harvey

With any asset you can continue to invest in it, or take dividends.


----------



## raisingarizona

Benny Profane said:


> Breck, I'm pretty sure, yesterday. Or maybe the day before. Whatever. This isn't even Xmas week. What the hell.
> Looking at the bright side, if that mountain and the whole ski industry isn't shut down by the end of January, we're cool. This is a test. Beep, beep, beep.
> 
> View attachment 11500


People are paying a lot of money to do that! That amazes me.

Human behavior is fascinating.


----------



## MarzNC

Benny Profane said:


> I just think that Alterra has smarter and more engaged people running the show right now, and they seem to have a plan for what the future will be in 2030. Listen to Stuart Winchester's podcast interview of Rob Perlman, president of Steamboat and COO of one of their region's in the Rockies, and then listen to Stuart's interview of Tim Baker, the eastern region VP of Vail resorts. The difference is obvious. Perlman has a detailed five year plan for Steamboat, which, not my cup of tea, but, if you know the place, makes total sense for what is their primary customer. Baker really has nothing, not that I blame him, but, if you plop all of these small hills in somebody's lap, as disparate as Hunter to Mt. Snow to Wildcat, yeah, that's going to be hard to integrate, especially if you haven't even skied most of them, like he admitted. But, probably a good gig and pays well, if he keeps his head down.


Agree that Alterra has a much more sensible approach to allowing senior management to make decisions for a ski resort that they are invested in at some personal level. Other than Crystal, the Alterra resorts have long-term plans that seem to make sense. The folks at Crystal will figure it out, but the growth in the local population center and lack of parking is not something they can control.

The VR approach to senior managers is to move them around. Not only within a region but across regions. Very hard to really get a feel for a location after only 1-2 seasons.

For example:

SUNAPEE
2020 Peter Disch as GM 01Jun
2019 Tracy Bartels starts as GM, was Mt Ops at Keystone, Breck instructor 2000
2018 Bruce Schmidt, from Okemo

WILMOT, Chicago market
2020 - Scott Leigh as GM; started at Vail 1998
2018 - Peter Disch as GM in June, was at Keystone
2016 - Taylor Ogilvie as GM right after sale complete, was at Mt Brighton (left VR Feb 2018)
Jan 2016 - VR sale announced


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> With any asset you can continue to invest in it, or take dividends.


Some folks do both.


----------



## MarzNC

Benny Profane said:


> First of all, as you pointed out, this is four years old, which, I'm pretty sure is pre Peaks purchase and the crude, blundering entry into the northeast after Stowe. Then, well, Covid, which is neither here or there, for now. Everybody got Covid. But, the Peaks purchase just proves that Vail isn't as calculating or well managed as the writer assumed, . . .



As for Peak Resorts, they were having trouble understanding the northeast and mid-Atlantic ski areas as they expanded out of the midwest (OH, IN). For that family, getting a buy-out offer from VR was probably a lot easier than continuing to try to run a public company. The level of complaining from the DC folks who are local to the former Snowtime resorts (Roundtop, Whitetail, Liberty) was pretty high after Peak took over. Certainly hasn't gotten any better under VR.


----------



## idratherbskiing

MarzNC said:


> As for Peak Resorts, they were having trouble understanding the northeast and mid-Atlantic ski areas as they expanded out of the midwest (OH, IN). For that family, getting a buy-out offer from VR was probably a lot easier than continuing to try to run a public company. The level of complaining from the DC folks who are local to the former Snowtime resorts (Roundtop, Whitetail, Liberty) was pretty high after Peak took over. Certainly hasn't gotten any better under VR.


was Peaks the Sakler family?


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> Even if covid didn't exist it seems Vail has seriously damaged the entire ski experience.


That sounds like a regional impression. Not sure the feeling is the same in Colorado or Tahoe. Of course, have to consider the people who don't use social media for their once a season ski vacation. There are plenty of VR bashers out west online.

My sense is that people who try to use approaches that worked well in one region in another another region run into trouble. ASC did well for a while in the northeast. Trying to handle Steamboat was a mess. The Muellers wanted Crested Butte after success with Okemo, but CB was a completely different situation. Even with the high level of dedication that was happening before the VR offer, the going was tough at CB.


----------



## MarzNC

idratherbskiing said:


> was Peaks the Sakler family?


NO! The family who created Peaks as private company had nothing to do with the Sacklers when all the locations were in the midwest before they set their sights on expanding into the northeast. That connection happened after Peaks went public. Fair to say that while Tim Boyd and his sons understood a lot about snowmaking, they didn't have the same level of knowledge about what can happen to a public company with a lot of debt as Rob Katz did when he took over as CEO of VR.



Peak Resorts History - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com



In contrast to the Boyd family, the Kircher family have been far more patient as they have continued to improve operations for Boyne Resorts. Peak Resorts had far too much debt. Boyne sold resorts to a REIT when the 2008 recession hit . . . and bought everything back about 10 years later, while continuing to operate all of them. Boyne has managed to handle the realities of the midwest (MI), the northeast (NH, ME), and the west (Big Sky, Brighton, etc.) quite well as a private company.


----------



## trackbiker

Benny Profane said:


> Breck, I'm pretty sure, yesterday. Or maybe the day before. Whatever. This isn't even Xmas week. What the hell.
> Looking at the bright side, if that mountain and the whole ski industry isn't shut down by the end of January, we're cool. This is a test. Beep, beep, beep.
> 
> View attachment 11500


I think most people are really missing the downside of the cheap passes. With 42% more pass sales, crowds like this are going to be the norm at resorts like Mt. Snow, Okemo and most others. While their new CEO is good with sales algorithms for consumer products, it's a different thing for services. People will still buy Pepsi because it's cheap but after they experience holiday-like crowds every weekend and poor service, on top of now paying for parking, many won't repurchase their product no matter what the cost. A good friend experienced the mess at Wildcat and Attitash last year and he, his 2 daughters and sons-in-laws all said they would never buy the Epic pass again. The other downside is potential new skiers don't buy passes to start and when they see the walk-up rates they'll decide to go snowmobiling or ice skating instead of skiing. They're killing off the new customers as they baby boomers and getting out of the sport. The senior management at VR will take their big salaries, sell their stock options, and leave the other stock holders holding the bag when things collapse.


----------



## MarzNC

I stopped by the base of Boston Mills recently on my way back from Colorado (via Cleveland to drop off my travel/ski buddy). Turns out that Boston Mills is in a state park. So VR is operating more than one location where they don't own any land. I thought Sunapee was the exception.

It's been very warm in Ohio in Dec, so snowmaking is very much behind.


----------



## MarzNC

trackbiker said:


> The other downside is potential new skiers don't buy passes to start and when they see the walk-up rates they'll decide to go snowmobiling or ice skating instead of skiing. They're killing off the new customers as they baby boomers and getting out of the sport.


On the other hand, the non-Epic/non-Ikon ski areas that have decent marketing are finding new local customers. The owner of Berkshire East and Catamount has noted that they are finding a market. The Indy Pass is helping some people understand that there are a lot of other places to go skiing that they have never heard of before.

From what I can tell, the history of the American ski industry has never really had a long period of stability. Meaning more than a decade or so before a major shift happened for one reason or another. The gas crisis of the early 1970s, the recession of 2008, and other social/economic changes that had nothing to do with snow are a couple of examples.


----------



## abe

Laurel Mountain which they just took over the operational lease for is also a PA state park

Vail took over a lot of the "big name" places and a lot of people don't realize that there are less crowded alternatives which have just as good terrain - "I'm not going skiing this weekend, it'll be too crowded"


----------



## MarzNC

With the addition of the three ski areas/resorts near Pittsburgh, the count for VR is up to 40 resorts worldwide. Was pretty clear the reason to buy Perisher was to gain a foothold for the Australian market. Pre-pandemic there are a fair number of Aussies who plan 2-4 week ski trips to N. America since mid-season is during their summer.

2019 was a major expansion year for Epic. Then the pandemic hit for 2020-21 and the pandemic is still a major factor for 2021-22. Won't really have "new normal" operations at all Epic locations until 2023.

The first "urban" ski resorts added to the Epic list starting in 2012 were in the northern midwest: Afton Alps (Minn./St. Paul), Mt. Brighton (Detroit, Ann Arbor), and Wilmot (Chicago). VR spent a lot of money shortly after those aquisitions upgrading facilities for those formerly under-capitalized family owned ski areas. The other cities now covered by Epic one way or another include New York City (Hunter, Mt. Snow, Stowe), Boston (Stowe, Mt. Snow, Okemo, NH), DC/Baltimore (former Showtime), Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Seattle (Stephens Pass). Plus all the cities and universities in Indiana, Ohio, and Missouri for the rest of the midwest that doesn't have any big mountains.

Between Ikon and Indy, there is competition in all regions for Epic. In Australia, Thredbo is an Ikon Partner.

Vail Mountain, Colorado: 1962
Beaver Creek Resort, Colorado: 1980
Breckenridge Ski Resort, Colorado: 1997
Keystone Resort, Colorado: 1997
Heavenly Mountain Resort, California: 2002
Northstar California Resort, California: 2010
Kirkwood Mountain Resort, California: 2012
Afton Alps, Minnesota: 2012
Mt. Brighton, Michigan: 2012
Canyons Resort, Utah: 2013
Park City Mountain Resort, Utah: 2014
Perisher Ski Resort, AUSTRALIA: 2015
Wilmot Mountain Ski Resort, Wisconsin: 2016
Whistler Blackcomb, British Columbia, CANADA: 2016
Stowe Mountain Resort, Vermont: 2017

TRIPLE PEAKS - Mueller family
Crested Butte Mountain Resort, Colorado: 2018
Mount Sunapee Resort, New Hampshire: 2018 - operations only in a state park
Okemo Mountain Resort, Vermont: 2018

RCR in CANADA
Fernie, BC, CANADA: 2018 - as a limited access Partner for Epic only
Kicking Horse, BC, CANADA: 2018 - as a limited access Partner for Epic only
Kimberly, BC, CANADA: 2018 - as a limited access Partner for Epic only
Nakiska, Alberta, CANADA: 2018 - as a limited access Partner for Epic only
Mont Sainte Anne, Quebec, CANADA: 2018 - as a limited access Partner for Epic only
Stoneham, Quebec, CANADA: 2018 - as a limited access Partner for Epic only

Stevens Pass, Washington: 2018
Telluride, CO: 2018 - as a limited access Partner for Epic only
Sun Valley, ID: 2019 - as a limited access Partner for Epic only
Snowbasin, UT: 2019 - as a limited access Partner for Epic only

Falls Creek, AUSTRALIA: 2019
Hotham Alpine Resort, AUSTRALIA: 2019

PEAKS RESORTS - Boyd family
Hidden Valley Ski Resort, Missouri: 2019
Snow Creek Ski Area, Missouri: 2019
Paoli Peaks, Indiana: 2019
Boston Mills Ski Resort, Ohio: 2019 - in a state park
Brandywine Ski Resort, Ohio: 2019- in a state park
Mad River Mountain, Ohio: 2019
Alpine Valley Resort, Ohio: 2019
Mount Snow Resort, Vermont: 2019
Attitash Mountain Ski Area, New Hampshire: 2019
Crotched Mountain Resort, New Hampshire: 2019
Wildcat Mountain Ski Area, New Hampshire: 2019
Hunter Mountain, New York: 2019
Jack Frost Ski Resort, Pennsylvania: 2019
Big Boulder Ski Resort, Pennsylvania: 2019

SNOWTIME INC - Irv Naylor
Roundtop Mountain Resort, Pennsylvania: 2019
Whitetail Resort, Pennsylvania: 2019
Liberty Mountain Resort, Pennsylvania: 2019

NUTTING FAMILY (based in Pittsburgh)
Seven Springs Resort, Pennsylvania: 2021
Hidden Valley Resort, Pennsylvania: 2021
Laurel Mountain Ski Area, Pennsylvania: 2021 - operations only in a state park

EDIT: added RCR Partners


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> 2019 was a major expansion year for Epic. Won't really have "new normal" operations at all Epic locations until 2023.


There ain’t a whole lot of normal with anything Vail Resorts Inc. touches, other than the mountains themselves haven’t moved yet.
Abnormal is a more appropriate term for VR Inc.’s operations.
"Their mountains" would move if they could get away.
I feel sorry for them.


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> There ain’t a whole lot of normal with anything Vail Resorts Inc. touches, other than the mountains themselves haven’t moved yet.
> Abnormal is a more appropriate term for VR Inc.’s operations.
> "Their mountains" would move if they could get away.
> I feel sorry for them.


I actually feel sorry for the rank and file employees and for the locals where Vail invaded their mountain communities.


----------



## raisingarizona

Andy_ROC said:


> I actually feel sorry for the rank and file employees and for the locals where Vail invaded their mountain communities.


Yup. At first you’ll hear from a few optimistic locals about how they needed this for x improvements but a few years later there generally isn’t anyone singing vails praises.


----------



## Campgottagopee

RA with the 420 post ?


----------



## raisingarizona

Does it count if it’s 2:20 here? ?‍♂️?. I am cruising on gummies!


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> I actually feel sorry for the rank and file employees and for the locals where Vail invaded their mountain communities.


Per usual, when there is an ownership change, the outcome varies. Even for VR. I know the owner of the motel I stayed at just before Stowe was added to Epic was quite excited about getting Epic passes for his family. It's been a few years so I wonder how he feels now from a personal and business standpoint.

Here's a story about Afton Alps, the first urban ski area bought and added to Epic back in 2013.

December 18, 2021





Vail Bought My Hometown Hill. Here’s What Happened.


Conjecture is at an all-time high about what it will mean to have your favorite mountain run by a corporation instead of locally.




www.powder.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Per usual, when there is an ownership change, the outcome varies. Even for VR. I know the owner of the motel I stayed at just before Stowe was added to Epic was quite excited about getting Epic passes for his family. It's been a few years so I wonder how he feels now from a personal and business standpoint.
> 
> Here's a story about Afton Alps, the first urban ski area bought and added to Epic back in 2013.
> 
> December 18, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Bought My Hometown Hill. Here’s What Happened.
> 
> 
> Conjecture is at an all-time high about what it will mean to have your favorite mountain run by a corporation instead of locally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.powder.com


That’s a trade journal Vail Resorts Inc. advertises in so it just may be a tad bit biased.
Here’s what folks said last week about the place on tweeter.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470197074444619781


----------



## TomCat

Late comment here on the pass. It’s good for the serious skier. Good price plus lots of options. But for the occasional skier ( a few weekends per year) it’s terrible, because the daily rate has gone through the roof to push everyone to the pass. Think about taking a family of four for a weekend skiing. I think it will shrink the overall market over time. People will just go to Disney. 

Tom


----------



## poindexter

I agree with TomCat re the serious skier. My daughter and her friends just bought Epic passes for the first time this year. The deal was too good to pass up. They are based in Boston and now have unlimited skiing in NH and are planning a trip to Park City, mooching off of friends/family ski houses in both places. They are all serious skiers with little cash. For a bunch of poor post-college/grad students, it opens up a lot of opportunity and makes skiing a real bargain. They are so grateful to be able to do this that the lift lines probably won't bother them. Also, those lines are not all over the mountains. My brother just came back from Park City and he said that there were only bad lines at a few lifts, and a lot of the problem was the lack of terrain, but that improved over the course of the week as more snow fell. He did mention that lack of staffing was an issue though.


----------



## Harvey

I tried to structure this poll so that all the different possibilities could be captured in one way or another.

The one thing it touches on, but doesn't really address directly is the time frame.

It's possible that Epic could be good for skiers this year, or next year, and bad for them in 20 years, if it shrinks the industry even more than demographics suggest.

I believe that things will change. It could be external to Vail, as covid fades and the labor market improves, the situation simply becomes more workable. Or maybe, as predicted, skiing will shrink as boomers retire and Vail will be better able to handle the volume that cheap season passes create. 

I wonder if Vail can adapt from within to remain profitable and support skiing at the same time.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> The one thing it touches on, but doesn't really address directly is the time frame...
> It's possible that Epic could be good for skiers this year, or next year, and bad for them in 20 years, if it shrinks the industry even more than demographics suggest.
> ...Or maybe, as predicted, skiing will shrink as boomers retire and Vail will be better able to handle the volume that cheap season passes create.


Who’s predicting skiing will shrink as boomers retire? 
Not having to work gives ya more time for skiing.
Ya said yerself ya plan to move to yer cabin so’s ya can ski more when ya retire, or something to that effect.


----------



## Brownski

I think Harv meant to say as boomers retire from skiing


----------



## Peter Minde

Andy_ROC said:


> There was a time I considered that it might be a good idea to have an Epic pass. Who wouldn't want to be able to ski at many mountains with one pass? But then if I bought an epic I'd base my travel around where there was an epic mountain, and I don't like that. I don't want to be tied down.
> 
> Long term I see this as hurting the ski industry. Big corporate monopolies and the Disneyfication of skiing is something I loath. Squeezing smaller mountains and non epic mountains financially will force some out of business and ultimately leave us with fewer choices. This will result in higher prices and more crowding. Not good.
> 
> Oh and in the meantime it was just announced days ago that VR just bought 3 more mountains. Ugh.



"The Disneyfication of skiing." Brilliant observation; I hope it doesn't happen.


----------



## tirolski

Peter Minde said:


> "The Disneyfication of skiing." Brilliant observation; I hope it doesn't happen.


Unfortunately for some places it already has.


----------



## Old Fart Snbder

I’ve been skiing/riding since 1980 and I think these multi mountain passes are the greatest thing to ever happen to skiing. I own both Ikon and Epic and love them both. I ride 50+ days a season and it costs less than it did in the 1990s. I see lots of people complain about lines but all these mountains have some fixed grip lifts with no lines. Look at the Outlook Double next to the Fourrunner at Stowe absolutely blows my mind that there’s a massive line at the HS vs no line at the Outlook. One Saturday last season I boarded 31k vert at Stowe including lunch break by utilizing all the lifts and waiting in virtually no lines.


----------



## TonyC

This is a great thread and I applaud Harvey for the comprehensive detail of his poll.

For anyone who skis a lot, the multiarea passes are great deal. I'm a variety junkie as evidenced by the record 37 areas I skied in 2018-19, 16 of them for the first time. Despite that 37 of my 70 days were on Ikon.
20 of my 41 days in 2019-20 were on Ikon.
28 of my 51 days in 2020-21 were on Ikon and another 5 on Indy as I was avoiding some of the big places with pandemic obstacles like remote parking, enclosed lifts, advance reservations.

While I much prefer Ikon's ski areas and operating/management to Epic, I'm still a captive audience. If Vail owned Mammoth, I'd have to be on Epic. I feel lucky that Alterra's CEO Rusty Gregory came from Mammoth so he understands the mountain and its clientele. The first year of Ikon Alterra was going to require full Ikon for unlimited skiing at Mammoth. Within a week the outcry from existing Mammoth passholders resulted in change of policy, making Base Ikon unlimited aside from holiday blackouts. Mammoth's former season pass was $100 more than a Base Ikon.

I've heard that the Epic/Ikon passes are good for the independents. Since corporate day tickets are jacked up so high, the independents can charge $60-$70 and make money vs. the $30-$40 they might have to charge if the big places wanted to compete on day tickets.

I recall reading that POWDR Corp shut down or jacked prices on kids/school programs when they took over Killington. If Vail is doing the same, that reinforces my negative vote about long term impact.



Brownski said:


> I think Harv meant to say as boomers retire from skiing


Most of them already have. According the the Kottke reports on US Skier visits:
People born 1953 and prior were 21.0% of visits in 1998, 12.0% in 2009 and 5.5% in 2019
People born 1954-1963 were 23.6% in 1998, 19.3% in 2009 and 10.8% in 2019
Total skier visits were 54.1 million in 1998, 57.4 million in 2009 and 59.1 million in 2019.

I've always said you have to look at ski areas in regional context, and I'm sure that's why Vail has blundered by replacing too many local people with corporate types from outside the region. I suspect Vail's initial Midwest purchases were on balance positive with the big infrastructure improvements. But they are clearly foundering at Stevens Pass and with many of the Peaks resorts.

Someone mentioned snowmaking at the Peaks areas. In the 1980's Killington bought what is now Bear Mt. in SoCal, never could make snow there as well as locally owned Snow Summit two miles away with the same water source. Bear went through a couple of other owners before Snow Summit bought it in 2002. The next year the snowmaking was of the same quality at both areas.

So yes from an operations standpoint the Alterra model looks more sensible, letting the individual areas operate independently. But how does the Alterra parent company, which is private equity, make money out of this and how do they cash out down the road profitably? Remember in addition that Alterra has to pay significant $$$ to places like Alta, Snowbird and Jackson to get them on the Ikon, and to many more such places overall than Vail has to pay Epic partner resorts.


----------



## Harvey

"Hey Harv, last boomer out turn out the lights!"

Thanks on the poll Tony, I actually had help from @MC2.


----------



## rfreeman

I have an Epic, 3rd year in a row. This year I also have an Indy and have used it far more as the increase in Epic Pass sales and getting rid of reservation requirements has led to overcrowding.

I would have voted good for skiers in past years but vote bad this year. They should increase price somewhat and start requiring reservations to limit capacity again IMO.


----------



## Peter

Yeah missing an option for "Epic Pass in addition to other passes because it it so darn cheap."


----------



## Harvey

Peter said:


> Yeah missing an option for "Epic Pass in addition to other passes because it it so darn cheap."


"Best option for you" maybe? Hard to create a poll that imagines every possibility.


----------



## Dmoss

I think the mega pass is good for skiing overall. More access to more mountains at cheaper prices. I know many people that used to ski 3-5 days a year that are skiing 10 or more now. That is a good thing right? I would love if ORDA partnered with a major Colorado or Utah mountain to offer some reciprocal days.

Vail is going through some serious growing pains this year and hopefully they will learn from it and make some adjustments to better the product. Wintry Mix had a good pod recently with what sounded like some decent ideas on how to fix what is clearly broken with Epic.


----------



## tirolski

Dmoss said:


> Wintry Mix had a good pod recently with what sounded like some decent ideas on how to fix what is clearly broken with Epic.


Yup.
_Since they are going to listen I figured I should at least provide them my 10 minutes of tough love free consulting. Here's to hoping they begin eating a more balanced diet.

Stay healthy my friends._









						Wintry Mix
					

Skiing's variety show since 2015. CO, VT and beyond. Produced by AK former dirt ski bum and resort exec. VM/text line (802) 560-5003....




					wintrymix.podbean.com


----------



## Harvey

Dmoss said:


> Wintry Mix had a good pod recently with what sounded like some decent ideas on how to fix what is clearly broken with Epic.


I didn't listen to this. Somehow just can't get into the pod thing.

Did he mention using the $1.5B they have in cash to pay employees fairly and put operations back in the hands of someone on property?


----------



## Benny Profane

Wait. That guy shut his podcast down. Now he's back for ten minutes?


----------



## Harvey

Benny Profane said:


> Wait. That guy shit his podcast down. Now he's back for ten minutes?


Good point. I assumed the pod was old. I mean nothing says he can't come back.

What's his best idea?


----------



## Benny Profane

I liked his podcast. Hope he comes back.

Kind of a Colorado/western version of Stuart's more eastern centric podcast. 

Btw, everyone wish Stuart well, he really screwed up his leg.


----------



## Harvey

Benny Profane said:


> Btw, everyone wish Stuart well, he really screwed up his leg.


It hurts me just to look at those xrays. He seems to be in good spirits, considering.


----------



## Harvey

2022-23 Season Pass Sales Begin – Here’s What I’m Watching
					

Expect higher prices, more blackouts, and continued innovation in pass products




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## Dmoss

Harvey said:


> Good point. I assumed the pod was old. I mean nothing says he can't come back.
> 
> What's his best idea?


It was just a short commentary on Vail and Epic pass. not a new pod. I liked his idea of declaring a home mountain and giving people limited access to non home mountains.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> What's his best idea?


Be careful eating too much pizza or something like that.
It was interesting.


----------



## takeahike46er

Next season’s prices have been announced with small increases across all their pass products, but otherwise no substantial changes:









Vail Resorts increases Epic Pass price for 2022-2023 season, but it’s still cheaper than the Ikon Pass


The Epic Pass next season will still be cheaper than the Ikon Pass by about $200. Which will you be buying?




www.denverpost.com





I think it’s a missed opportunity to try and address the crowding that’s damaged their brand. IMO Vail (and IKON) need to introduce a better mechanism to prevent pass holders from all showing up on the best days of the season. Skier visits and lift times at Vail resorts might only be slightly up on average, but those select days each season when the traffic spikes due to powder or optimal conditions are what’s resulting in the egregious lift lines and a cheapened experience.


----------



## Harvey

takeahike46er said:


> prevent pass holders from all showing up on the best days of the season.


This seems like a heavy lift. When I buy a pass my goal is to show up on the best days of the season.

Which passholders should be prevented?


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> This seems like a heavy lift. When I buy a pass my goal is to show up on the best days of the season.
> 
> Which passholders should be prevented?


Free heelers


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Free heelers


We don't buy no stinkin epic.


----------



## Dmoss

takeahike46er said:


> Next season’s prices have been announced with small increases across all their pass products, but otherwise no substantial changes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts increases Epic Pass price for 2022-2023 season, but it’s still cheaper than the Ikon Pass
> 
> 
> The Epic Pass next season will still be cheaper than the Ikon Pass by about $200. Which will you be buying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.denverpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it’s a missed opportunity to try and address the crowding that’s damaged their brand. IMO Vail (and IKON) need to introduce a better mechanism to prevent pass holders from all showing up on the best days of the season. Skier visits and lift times at Vail resorts might only be slightly up on average, but those select days each season when the traffic spikes due to powder or optimal conditions are what’s resulting in the egregious lift lines and a cheapened experience.


I was thinking the same thing in terms of crowding, especially at places that are not blacked out on the local pass. But Vail claimed that skier visits were "flat with the 2019-20 season during peak periods". Although perhaps that is across their entire network? Would be interesting to see that broken down not just by mountain but by specific peak days.


----------



## takeahike46er

Harvey said:


> This seems like a heavy lift. When I buy a pass my goal is to show up on the best days of the season.
> 
> Which passholders should be prevented?



Agree, it’s not an easy problem to solve, and to be clear—I don’t think the full Epic Pass holders are the problem here, but rather all the other flavors of passes offered.

Perhaps institute reservations for the lower-tier pass products? Or a pass system where days are valued based on demand?

For example, I have an Edge Card for W/B. I’d personally have no problem making a reservation as long as capacity exists for the upcoming visit.


----------



## Dmoss

Harvey said:


> This seems like a heavy lift. When I buy a pass my goal is to show up on the best days of the season.
> 
> Which passholders should be prevented


I think if you were required to declare a home mountain and then got limited days at other mountains it could go a long way to preventing crowds.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> This seems like a heavy lift. When I buy a pass my goal is to show up on the best days of the season.
> 
> Which passholders should be prevented?


The ones that can’t find a place to park & turn around and go back home or somewhere else,.


----------



## MarzNC

takeahike46er said:


> I think it’s a missed opportunity to try and address the crowding that’s damaged their brand. IMO Vail (and IKON) need to introduce a better mechanism to prevent pass holders from all showing up on the best days of the season. Skier visits and lift times at Vail resorts might only be slightly up on average, but those select days each season when the traffic spikes due to powder or optimal conditions are what’s resulting in the egregious lift lines and a cheapened experience.


Would be good to know how much VR resorts limited day tickets during holiday periods.

Hardest part is when people have Epic passes, plane tickets and lodging booked for a holiday period in Dec or Jan . . . and then it doesn't snow enough in Nov and Dec. They already paid a premium to be able to ski during holiday blackout dates. For 2021-22, staffing issues due to the pandemic made the situation even worse.

A couple of Ikon Partners (JH, Taos) required reservations for Ikon holders, but most didn't. However, there were quite a few that made it clear that day tickets would be limited and that buying in advance online was highly recommended for busy days.


----------



## tirolski

takeahike46er said:


> Agree, it’s not an easy problem to solve, and to be clear—I don’t think the full Epic Pass holders are the problem here, but rather all the other flavors of passes offered.
> 
> Perhaps institute reservations for the lower-tier pass products? Or a pass system where days are valued based on demand?
> 
> For example, I have an Edge Card for W/B. I’d personally have no problem making a reservation as long as capacity exists for the upcoming visit.


Tee times (skiing) FTW would help lift line shitshows but not be a fix for all the powder hounds untracked addiction.


----------



## takeahike46er

From what I’ve observed locally at W/B, holiday periods aren’t the issue. It’s those random, big powder weekends (or when there’s snow in the metro area) when things _really_ get ugly. Finding a way to limit a subset of the ticket/pass holders on these days could address the perception that their mountains are universally oversold, even if the reality is that the majority of days are within their comfortable carrying capacity.


----------



## not2brite

Dmoss said:


> I think if you were required to declare a home mountain and then got limited days at other mountains it could go a long way to preventing crowds.


This sounds like a very reasonable idea.
Another way to go is keep the midweek/restricted passes significantly cheaper than full and unrestricted access. Even at $1,000 these things are all a very good deal considering the access they get you.


----------



## Harvey

takeahike46er said:


> Agree, it’s not an easy problem to solve, and to be clear—I don’t think the full Epic Pass holders are the problem here, but rather all the other flavors of passes offered.
> 
> Perhaps institute reservations for the lower-tier pass products? Or a pass system where days are valued based on demand?



Full epic is not the problem and other epic passholders are... splain Ricky.

I'm spending my money on passes where I'm always welcome, and the mountain isn't crowded.


----------



## tirolski

If it wasn’t for Fail running and ruining their mountains...,
the senior (65+) Northeast M-F weekday pass could be a deal.
That’s a BIG IF though...

For $291 there's midweek “access” to possibly less liftline shitshows. But ya gotta go to know.


https://www.epicpass.com/Passes/Northeast-Midweek-Pass


----------



## takeahike46er

Harvey said:


> Full epic is not the problem and other epic passholders are... splain Ricky.



Poor choice of words on my part. None of the passholders are the problem. The extremely high demand on these select days is the problem, and my observation is that it's not just the hardcore accounting for the traffic spikes on these dates.

With Vail resorts selling more and more tickets in advance— including an assortment of 2 day, 4 day, or 5 day passes—in the past, these visitors might have chosen to do other activities instead of skiing, but now feel obligated to burn their ski days before they go to waste. It's only natural that they are picking the "best" days, only to show up to a gong show. Since this demographic represents the majority of skiers, my logic is try and cap or incentivize this group to choose alternative days.


----------



## riverc0il

They have the numbers. They know how many pass holders vs. day trippers show up on a powder day.

Pass holders shouldn't be limited on powder days. That makes no sense. If you paid for a pass, you should get to use your pass on any applicable days. Blackout some passes for peak periods. But a pass holder should not be turned away just because there is good snow.

Day tripper tickets should be limited. If there is a big storm, each resort knows what percentage of guests (on average) will be pass holders. They know how many guests (on average) they should get. They know how many vacation packages have been booked. They have all of the data for current season resorts on the pass.

Each resort should have a curve rating each day's weather against a benchmark and limiting day tickets. If there is a storm within three days with high certainty, begin putting in place limits. Ease limits if the forecast does not pan out, tighten limits if the forecast becomes more certain or expected snowfall increases.

Also, are we sure this is a demand issue and not a logistics/staffing issue (in most cases)? It seems like many resorts had issues not just due to high skier visits, but also due to lifts not running, limited terrain, not enough staff, etc. Many resorts are capacity limited by parking (though, numbers in each car and numbers in each room can vary).


----------



## MarzNC

riverc0il said:


> Also, are we sure this is a demand issue and not a logistics/staffing issue (in most cases)? It seems like many resorts had issues not just due to high skier visits, but also due to lifts not running, limited terrain, not enough staff, etc. Many resorts are capacity limited by parking (though, numbers in each car and numbers in each room can vary).


Part of the problem now is that if one VR resort has issues that result in a picture of a long lift line that goes viral, many people think that's how every VR resort looks every weekend or holiday. Some of these people don't even ski. They just read news headlines or see Twitter/IG/FB posts.

The first season Ikon existed, there were plenty of locals at places like JH, Big Sky, or Alta/Snowbird that blamed Ikon holders for the long lines. The data was clear that 1-location season pass holders had been on the slopes a lot more that usual because that was a banner year for powder storms. Of course, the locals who were most vocal often didn't believe the statements from management.

Stevens Pass is a special case. Given that Crystal (bought by Alterra) is in the same market with similar issues, harder to tell what are VR management issues and what is growing pains for the region.

However, there may be more general operational and management issues in New England and the midwest. Lack of experience in the region by GMs who are coming from the Rockies seems like asking for trouble. I'll be watching to see how the transition goes for the three new locations in western PA. People in DC/NoVA haven't been happy with VR making signification operational changes for the three former Snowtime/Peak hills.


----------



## MarzNC

takeahike46er said:


> With Vail resorts selling more and more tickets in advance— including an assortment of 2 day, 4 day, or 5 day passes—in the past, these visitors might have chosen to do other activities instead of skiing, but now feel obligated to burn their ski days before they go to waste. It's only natural that they are picking the "best" days, only to show up to a gong show. Since this demographic represents the majority of skiers, my logic is try and cap or incentivize this group to choose alternative days.


Would be interesting to know what percentage of people buying an Epic Day Pass drive to use their days. It's certainly how VR is pulling in new customers since the entry price is relatively low.

Requiring people to make a reservation a few days in advance for Epic Day Passes would provide more control. Then there would be three categories: 1) pass holders including Epic, 2) Epic Day folks, 3) people buying a day ticket. The pandemic season proved that lift access reservations can work to limit capacity.


----------



## x10003q

MarzNC said:


> Would be interesting to know what percentage of people buying an Epic Day Pass drive to use their days. It's certainly how VR is pulling in new customers since the entry price is relatively low.
> 
> Requiring people to make a reservation a few days in advance for Epic Day Passes would provide more control. Then there would be three categories: 1) pass holders including Epic, 2) Epic Day folks, 3) people buying a day ticket. *The pandemic season proved that lift access reservations can work to limit capacity.*


I disagree with the bolded. Many people chose not to ski that season for a variety of reasons. How can you use a one off, oddball year as proof that reservations worked? 

I am happy I do not have to deal with the Epic mess, as my home mountain is Ikon. Ikon/Alterra unlimited resorts on the East coast are too far apart to have any overlap and there are plenty other choices to use the additional 5/7 days at other partner resorts.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> I am happy I do not have to deal with the Epic mess,


Maybe those with Epic passes enjoy long lift lines and cluster fucks? 
For the life of me I can't understand why people would put themselves through all of that horseshit.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Maybe those with Epic passes enjoy long lift lines and cluster fucks?
> For the life of me I can't understand why people would put themselves through all of that horseshit.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481243904599105537


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Maybe those with Epic passes enjoy long lift lines and cluster fucks?
> For the life of me I can't understand why people would put themselves through all of that horseshit.


If you happen to own and Vail bought your home mountain, you are just screwed. The reports (coming out of Pennsylvania, Hunter, Attitash and Wildcat, the parking at Mt Snow, the access road at Stowe) are terrible. We feel lucky that we are at an Alterra mountain.


----------



## jasonwx

x10003q said:


> If you happen to own and Vail bought your home mountain, you are just screwed. The reports (coming out of Pennsylvania, Hunter, Attitash and Wildcat, the parking at Mt Snow, the access road at Stowe) are terrible. We feel lucky that we are at an Alterra mountain.


And alterra is run by a real ski industry professional 
Rusty Gregory 
He started as a lifty at mammoth and rose though the ranks to ceo. 
Not some soft drink exec.


----------



## x10003q

jasonwx said:


> And alterra is run by a real ski industry professional
> Rusty Gregory
> He started as a lifty at mammoth and rose though the ranks to ceo.
> Not some soft drink exec.


Alterra has also kept local management in place. Vail has not.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> If you happen to own and Vail bought your home mountain, you are just screwed.


Agree with this. It would be hard for me to blame an owner for chasing in with Vail, but I certainly hope it never happens at Greek.
If it does, it makes my decision to concentrate on sleds even a better one.


----------



## Harvey

We'll be committing (more) to real estate near Gore in the next three years. Obviously anytime you buy real estate, it's a risk.

Four things are in the back of my mind, with regard to the unthinkable:

Contrary to press reports, Vail would probably not buy ORDA
I'll be retired, so I can ski midweek (doesn't mean they can't f it up)
I'm sure I'll be doing more nordic/bc and less lift-served
I'll be much to other mountains. I don't see McCauley ever going to Vail.


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

Not that I'm an Epic Pass holder but I personally don't like the idea of having to make a reservation with my season pass. What happens if you don't show? 

They need many tiers of pass prices from the super cheap, local midweek only, all the way up to the full fledged anywhere at anytime (which should be much more expensive then $840). They should also give you the option of paying up for discounted day tickets with the cheap local passes to places like Whistler and Vail with the amount of discount dependent on the tier of pass you bought. IMHO that's a nice middle ground between incentivizing people to commit up front while also using pricing to smooth over demand.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I don't see McCauley ever going to Vail.


Or Oak
Between those two hills a person can have a blast up in the ADK


----------



## jimmypete

It is difficult to quantify. The Epic has been very good for me and my family and some of my friends. A few family members for one reason or another didn't see value but will be doing it again. My home mountain is Hunter and I took side trips to Okemo and Sunapee. Pre Covid with Epic I skied at Hunter and Vail, for good value. I can ski during the week but my family usually skis on the weekend, I am buying a pass again.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jimmypete said:


> It is difficult to quantify. The Epic has been very good for me and my family and some of my friends. A few family members for one reason or another didn't see value but will be doing it again. My home mountain is Hunter and I took side trips to Okemo and Sunapee. Pre Covid with Epic I skied at Hunter and Vail, for good value. I can ski during the week but my family usually skis on the weekend, I am buying a pass again.


Thanks for posting this. All we ever hear is the bad so it's cool to hear it work for you.
Midweek is key.


----------



## Brownski

JP, what was the lift line situation on a normal weekend day? Was it always like the photos that have gotten all the attention on IG or was that not the norm?


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> I disagree with the bolded. Many people chose not to ski that season for a variety of reasons. How can you use a one off, oddball year as proof that reservations worked?


My thinking is about the fact that software for reservations seems to be readily available. So if there an interest by management to limit capacity by requiring lift access reservations, it can be done without breaking the bank. Same is true for parking reservations. Has little to do with how many people were on the slopes in 2020-21.

Powder Mountain has been using advanced online ticketing for years to limit day tickets. Incorporated Indy Pass reservations (5 days in advance) for 2021-22. Presumably that was to make it harder for Indy Pass folks to decide the night before and all show up on a powder day.


----------



## Brownski

If I have to make reservations as a season pass holder, I'm out.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> If I have to make reservations as a season pass holder, I'm out.


So you would never use Ikon to ski Jackson Hole? JH required Ikon reservations in 2021-22. May well have the same requirement in the future. Or do you not consider Ikon a "season pass"? There were Indy locations that required reservations. How is that different?

Is an Epic Local with holiday blackouts that provides unlimited access on non-holiday days to a long list of resorts in multiple regions the same as a "season pass" good at one mountain?


----------



## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> If I have to make reservations as a season pass holder, I'm out.


100%


----------



## Cornhead

Harvey said:


> We don't buy no stinkin epic.


----------



## tirolski

It’s for a course east of Buffalo.
EPIC pass.🤔





EPIC Pass







www.chestnuthillgolf.com


----------



## Brownski

I guess I consider it a season pass at the hill that’s got unlimited days


MarzNC said:


> So you would never use Ikon to ski Jackson Hole? JH required Ikon reservations in 2021-22. May well have the same requirement in the future. Or do you not consider Ikon a "season pass"? There were Indy locations that required reservations. How is that different?
> 
> Is an Epic Local with holiday blackouts that provides unlimited access on non-holiday days to a long list of resorts in multiple regions the same as a "season pass" good at one mountain?


do Jackson hole locals with unlimited days have to make reservations? I mean, I know it’s supposed to be the shit and everything but that’s kind of outrageous. If I bought an Ikon and I had to make reservations for Windham, Killington and Pico, that would piss me off- might be a deal breaker.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> I guess I consider it a season pass at the hill that’s got unlimited days
> 
> do Jackson hole locals with unlimited days have to make reservations? I mean, I know it’s supposed to be the shit and everything but that’s kind of outrageous. If I bought an Ikon and I had to make reservations for Windham, Killington and Pico, that would piss me off- might be a deal breaker.


The discussion here is about Epic. JH is a Partner for Ikon so no one can use it for unlimited days. An unlimited season pass at JH for a senior was just over $2000 for 2021-22. Only price I can find on the website now for an adult is the Midweek Mon-Fri pass at $1599.

The resorts that use Ikon as the "unlimited season pass" originally included Crystal in WA. That was removed even from Full Ikon for 2022-23. The Crystal locals aren't too happy that they would have to spend $1699 for the Crystal Legend for 23+ or $3999 for the Crystal Premier than includes parking and Ikon Base. Alterra handles Ikon for their resorts differently than Vail Resorts.

Guess we need to compare apples to apples in terms of when reservations could be required for Epic as an unlimited multi-resort pass. The issue is how to avoid crazy long lift lines on known busy days when there are lots of Epic travelers around who make plans weeks or months in advance. Dealing with crowding by people who can make last minute decisions to drive on powder days is different. Sorry for confusing the issue by bringing up an Ikon Partner.

Here are the Alterra resorts for which Full Ikon could be used as an unlimited season pass, $1079 for 2022-23. A few also have much cheaper 1-location season passes. For instance, Snowshoe's unlimited season pass for Main Basin and Silver Creek is $449. Solitude has a Midweek Mon-Thu pass with holiday blackouts for $399.


----------



## Brownski

So what was the JH question about if it’s not a season pass there? All I said was that if I bought a season pass and was expected to make reservations I would be out, or at least be pissed. Indy Pass is in no way a season pass either.


----------



## Harvey

I tried to use this but couldn't find my favorite mountains listed!






Ski Pass Payoff Calculator


Have you paid off your Ikon or Epic ski pass this season? Insert the cost of your pass and how many days you skied to find out!




www.skipasscalculator.com


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> So what was the JH question about if it’s not a season pass there? All I said was that if I bought a season pass and was expected to make reservations I would be out, or at least be pissed. Indy Pass is in no way a season pass either.


To me a season pass is to a local ski mountain. It’s a pass to where you normally go and are a part of the community. Multi-passes mostly remove the community part. 

I’d be out too if I have to make reservations to regularly ski. The paid for parking, reservation systems and traffic and/or costs to a lot of popular ski resorts is already keeping me away from those places. It’s getting so bad that it’s in part a reason why I’m losing interest in skiing at all these days.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> It’s getting so bad that it’s in part a reason why I’m losing interest in skiing at all these days.



{It’s getting so bad that...}

I am 100% fine with limiting my skiing to less famous ski hills with a sane and pleasant experience.


----------



## jasonwx

raisingarizona said:


> To me a season pass is to a local ski mountain. It’s a pass to where you normally go and are a part of the community. Multi-passes mostly remove the community part.
> 
> I’d be out too if I have to make reservations to regularly ski. The paid for parking, reservation systems and traffic and/or costs to a lot of popular ski resorts is already keeping me away from those places. It’s getting so bad that it’s in part a reason why I’m losing interest in skiing at all these days.


i guess i'm not alone...


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> {It’s getting so bad that...}
> 
> I am 100% fine with limiting my skiing to less famous ski hills with a sane and pleasant experience.


Well, I don’t have another option here and I’m going to be here until at least Cody is done with HS.

Also, “it’s in part a reason” why I’m losing interest. I think I’m ready for a break. Skiing takes a lot of my money and I’d like to do some different things for a while.

The only reason I’m continuing getting season passes here is so I can spend time with Cody up there.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> don’t have another option



Understood.


----------



## x10003q

raisingarizona said:


> To me a season pass is to a local ski mountain. It’s a pass to where you normally go and are a part of the community. Multi-passes mostly remove the community part.


The Ikon/Epic is still a local pass for many people. It just has the added benefit of other potential areas to visit.


raisingarizona said:


> I’d be out too if I have to make reservations to regularly ski. The paid for parking, reservation systems and traffic and/or costs to a lot of popular ski resorts is already keeping me away from those places. It’s getting so bad that it’s in part a reason why I’m losing interest in skiing at all these days.


This part is sad but true.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> {It’s getting so bad that...}
> 
> I am 100% fine with limiting my skiing to less famous ski hills with a sane and pleasant experience.


What’s sanity gotta do withit?
Keep playing in the snow weird.

All for the pleasant experience part.


----------



## Harvey

I changed my vote.


----------



## Brownski

What caused this?


----------



## snoloco

The Epic Pass really breathed new life into a ski industry that was struggling to find its footing after the 2008 meltdown. From the 90s into the early 2000s, at nearly every major resort, real estate was where they were making most of their money. The skiing was meant to drive real estate development. In the span of just a few months, all these resorts lost a massive source of revenue, and their main source of capital. It just crashed and burned, ceased to exist. If you're running a resort, how do you recover from such a shock?

When Vail introduced the Epic Pass, it marked a shift in focus away from real estate. You could instead sell a lot of cheap passes, get people on the mountain, and they might spend on other stuff like food and ski school. It worked. In fact, it worked so well that Vail was able to vastly expand their portfolio of resorts, adding even more value to their Epic Pass. A lot of the resorts they acquired were ones that previously followed the real estate model and got burned in 2008. Unable to do anything other than limp along, they sold to Vail.

The resorts that weren't sold to Vail attempted to band together in different ways to offer new pass products to compete with the Epic Pass. Still, none of these could really go head-to-head with Vail until the Ikon Pass was introduced. That started the current era of the "Pass Wars".

This did have unintended consequences. Since you had a much larger passholder base than before, with a lot more flexibility, the best days of the season tended to get overcrowded. You also can't really price every resort differently, and so you have some that are underpriced and get overwhelmed with skiers.

I don't believe this is entirely due to the passes though, at least in the west. The entire region has seen a lot of population growth in recent years. I'd be willing to bet that this has more of an effect on resort crowding than fly-in guests who mostly book in advance. While they gravitate towards the holiday weeks, they are limited by the amount of lodging available at these resorts.

Oddly enough, the mega pass model has actually resulted in some resorts resuming investments in real estate, as they discovered they needed more lodging and housing in the area, so I guess it all goes full circle.

I don't see the mega passes going anywhere anytime soon. They won't be exactly the same, but they will always exist in some form. For them to go away would mean Vail or Alterra completely dissolving, and their resorts being sold off to independent operators. I don't see that happening.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I changed my vote.
> View attachment 15770


_"Vail Resorts doesn’t participate in the Colorado Ski Country USA program."








Here’s how elementary school-aged kids in Colorado can ski all season for just $59


For a generation, Colorado Ski Country USA’s Ski Passport has provided an affordable way for elementary school children to take up skiing and snowboarding. And this year, it is being expanded…




www.denverpost.com




_


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> The Epic Pass really breathed new life into a ski industry that was struggling to find its footing after the 2008 meltdown. From the 90s into the early 2000s, at nearly every major resort, real estate was where they were making most of their money. The skiing was meant to drive real estate development. In the span of just a few months, all these resorts lost a massive source of revenue, and their main source of capital. It just crashed and burned, ceased to exist. If you're running a resort, how do you recover from such a shock?
> 
> When Vail introduced the Epic Pass, it marked a shift in focus away from real estate. You could instead sell a lot of cheap passes, get people on the mountain, and they might spend on other stuff like food and ski school. It worked. In fact, it worked so well that Vail was able to vastly expand their portfolio of resorts, adding even more value to their Epic Pass. A lot of the resorts they acquired were ones that previously followed the real estate model and got burned in 2008. Unable to do anything other than limp along, they sold to Vail.
> 
> The resorts that weren't sold to Vail attempted to band together in different ways to offer new pass products to compete with the Epic Pass. Still, none of these could really go head-to-head with Vail until the Ikon Pass was introduced. That started the current era of the "Pass Wars".
> 
> This did have unintended consequences. Since you had a much larger passholder base than before, with a lot more flexibility, the best days of the season tended to get overcrowded. You also can't really price every resort differently, and so you have some that are underpriced and get overwhelmed with skiers.
> 
> I don't believe this is entirely due to the passes though, at least in the west. The entire region has seen a lot of population growth in recent years. I'd be willing to bet that this has more of an effect on resort crowding than fly-in guests who mostly book in advance. While they gravitate towards the holiday weeks, they are limited by the amount of lodging available at these resorts.
> 
> Oddly enough, the mega pass model has actually resulted in some resorts resuming investments in real estate, as they discovered they needed more lodging and housing in the area, so I guess it all goes full circle.
> 
> I don't see the mega passes going anywhere anytime soon. They won't be exactly the same, but they will always exist in some form. For them to go away would mean Vail or Alterra completely dissolving, and their resorts being sold off to independent operators. I don't see that happening.


Excellent insight Sno.

I’d add that social media and the “powder chase” phenomenon has changed the game as well.

And, to beat my drum again, in a way mega passes are probably helping breathe new life into the mom and pop ski areas as weirdos like myself and a lot of others on this sight look for a more quiet, local type ski experience.

Still, I’m not going to love em or what it’s done to some of my favorite mountains but it is what it is. 

I’d love to hear Laz’s thoughts on this.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I changed my vote.
> View attachment 15770





Brownski said:


> What caused this?


Also, what was your original vote?


raisingarizona said:


> I’d love to hear Laz’s thoughts on this.


Me too actually. I could guess


----------



## snoloco

raisingarizona said:


> I’d add that social media and the “powder chase” phenomenon has changed the game as well.


It's certainly increased the number of people who ski and travel in general. Could've happened with or without mega passes.



raisingarizona said:


> And, to beat my drum again, in a way mega passes are probably helping breathe new life into the mom and pop ski areas as weirdos like myself and a lot of others on this sight look for a more quiet, local type ski experience.


And a lot of them are having the same problem. Look at Magic for instance having to limit ticket sales. Many of them are on Indy Pass as well. Of course, it's great to see higher skier visits at all resorts, not just the big ones.

As for where the industry goes from here, another trend I'm starting to see is vertical integration of services used for traveling to and from resorts. Vail acquired airport transfer service Colorado Mountain Express a while back and renamed it Epic Mountain Express. Alterra just acquired a ski baggage delivery company. You use these services when traveling, and instead of having to get them through independent providers, the resorts can just offer them themselves.

I also think there's a good case for the west needing more ski areas. Since there really aren't any left to acquire in these regions, if either company wants to build their portfolio, they may need to start from scratch. These major resorts are sometimes worth over a billion dollars, others hundreds of millions. How much ski area can you build for that when starting from scratch? Vail is building 19 new lifts this year. If you do 5 a year for 4 years, that's 20 lifts. It's not unreasonable when you think of it that way. Especially in markets where the existing resorts are bursting at the seams and turning away business.


----------



## MarzNC

Slightly off topic, but related to how Alterra is competing with VR. Alterra just bought Ski Butlers, the fancy gear rental service that brings potential gear to the customer for fitting. What's interesting is that Ski Butlers currently serves Ikon/MCP and Epic resorts in N. America and Europe.


----------



## Harvey

Both epic and covid have helped position Plattekill well, IMO.

My original vote was

"It's not that it is evil just that it's bad."

I still believe that is true.

But recently I decided its bad for the industry overrides it.

I understand that saying that is bs because it's all about skier visits when you include the word industry.


----------



## Brownski

I think some of the bad effects might be masked by the current boom in skier visits. I wonder what will happen if the economy really tanks. If people rule out flying for a big ski vacation, trends might shift back towards choosing one home mountain and sticking with it.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> I think some of the bad effects might be masked by the current boom in skier visits. I wonder what will happen if the economy really tanks. If people rule out flying for a big ski vacation, trends might shift back towards choosing one home mountain and sticking with it.


And with a changing climate, unpredictable conditions ski vacations will eventually experience a serious downturn I’d imagine.


----------



## snoloco

Brownski said:


> I think some of the bad effects might be masked by the current boom in skier visits. I wonder what will happen if the economy really tanks. If people rule out flying for a big ski vacation, trends might shift back towards choosing one home mountain and sticking with it.


I mean the economy did tank in 2020, and the 2020-2021 season had excellent attendance numbers when you consider that there were capacity restrictions. I think weather has a greater impact on skier visits than economic conditions anyways. I don't remember the 2008-2009 or 2009-2010 seasons being any less crowded than usual. Additionally, most people who ski at western resorts live out west, and thus drive to their destination.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> I mean the economy did tank in 2020, and the 2020-2021 season had excellent attendance numbers when you consider that there were capacity restrictions. I think weather has a greater impact on skier visits than economic conditions anyways. I don't remember the 2008-2009 or 2009-2010 seasons being any less crowded than usual. Additionally, most people who ski at western resorts live out west, and thus drive to their destination.


In 08-09 I only skied because I already had my pass. My pay was cut by 40% in November. That all has something to do with why I flipped out about paid parking at Gore. To me it seemed tone deaf.

In 2020, it looked like it was headed in the same direction. This time I was in charge, and cut my own pay, but two weeks later Uncle Sam bailed out my sorry ass, and I went skiing.

FWIW not sure I'd call last year's numbers a boom in skier visits. Highest number ever by .3%, I think. Be very interesting to see what happens this year. I do agree with snoloco on weather. It is a huge factor in total visits.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> I mean the economy did tank in 2020, and the 2020-2021 season had excellent attendance numbers when you consider that there were capacity restrictions. I think weather has a greater impact on skier visits than economic conditions anyways. I don't remember the 2008-2009 or 2009-2010 seasons being any less crowded than usual. Additionally, most people who ski at western resorts live out west, and thus drive to their destination.


Gotta disagree here Sno, the vast majority of skiers at destination resorts in say, Colorado are from the south/sout east/ east.


----------



## chumpomatic

snoloco said:


> I also think there's a good case for the west needing more ski areas.


^^this!


----------



## Andy_ROC

Hopefully a good number of these skiers/boarders find their way into Metaverse and don't come out. Saves room for us in real world 

Anyway it seems outdoor activity has been growing in popularity for years and then the pandemic supercharged it. Crowded skiing was bound to happen with or without mega passes. 

About the Epic - While I'm not an Epic pass holder, for the first time I am doing the full Ikon due to several trips planned.

Despite that my opinion remains unchanged that mega passes aren't great and anything associated with Vail is particularly problematic.

Looking forward to the season.


----------



## snoloco

Harvey said:


> In 08-09 I only skied because I already had my pass. My pay was cut by 40% in November. That all has something to do with why I flipped out about paid parking at Gore. To me it seemed tone deaf.


A lot of people already had passes and skied that year, which was my point. Presumably most resorts offered renewal incentives to keep those who had 08-09 passes for 09-10, much like they did during the pandemic, but for different reasons. That's also around when the Epic Pass was introduced, going back to my point about how it helped revitalize an industry that was crushed by the Great Recession.

At Killington, we went through the same thing last fall with Fast Tracks that Gore did with paid parking. It was announced well after the pass deadline, just a few weeks before the season started. At that time, inflation was really starting to pick up and squeeze household budgets, so again it seemed tone deaf to offer this product to allow 1%ers to cut in front of everyone else, when it was getting so much more expensive to even travel to the resort. 



Harvey said:


> FWIW not sure I'd call last year's numbers a boom in skier visits. Highest number ever by .3%, I think. Be very interesting to see what happens this year. I do agree with snoloco on weather. It is a huge factor in total visits.


I never said last year was a boom in skier visits. Just that it didn't take much effort to get back or close to pre pandemic. levels.


----------



## Harvey

snoloco said:


> I never said last year was a boom in skier visits.


Sorry was responding to Brownski:


Brownski said:


> I think some of the bad effects might be masked by the current boom in skier visits.



To Gore's credit, they made half (40%?) of Lot A paid and left it at that for 15 years.

Knock wood, hope I didn't jinx it.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> Gotta disagree here Sno, the vast majority of skiers at destination resorts in say, Colorado are from the south/sout east/ east.


And midwest. There are people who drive out to Colorado from Chicago on an annual basis. VR bought the local resorts near Chicago, Detroit, and St. Paul/Minn. to capture that market for Epic destination resorts in the west.

Met midwest ski club people at Taos who drove non-stop day and night. Slightly nutty seniors given the good prices that ski clubs get for plane fares and ground transportation from the airport. But they liked having wheels to go bar hopping in town. Average age . . . about 60.


----------



## snoloco

I thought this fit in best here, and it deals with another issue commonly faced by Epic or Ikon holders who are flying to a destination, that being airport transportation.

I follow various travel channels on YouTube, and this video caught my attention.






It's an American Airlines "flight" from Philadelphia to Atlantic City that's actually a bus.

You board the bus airside (past security) as you'd do if you were connecting to an actual flight, but then you leave the airport and drive to Atlantic City, and get off landside (outside security) the Atlantic City airport. For the reverse trip, you board landside, and need to clear security in Philadelphia.

The whole idea behind this service is it's a workaround for American Airlines to deal with the pilot shortage. So they serve a few destinations that are very close to Philadelphia (Atlantic City, Lancaster, Allentown) with buses.

I immediately thought that one, the destination doesn't necessarily have to be an airport, and two, that since your luggage gets checked through to the bus, that this would work great for ski destinations.

You could fly to Denver or Salt Lake City, and without even leaving the airport, board a bus to the ski area, and your luggage is all checked through. On the way back, you avoid the airport check in line, since you check your luggage when boarding the bus, even though you'd still need to clear security at the airport.


----------

