# 2020-2021 Alpine Touring Thread



## NYSnowflake

So who else is planning to earn their turns this season and avoid the Covid crowds? Did you buy new gear? Or do you have AT or Tele gear already? What is your setup and where do you plan to ski?

I just bought:
- Line Pandora 84 skis
- Marker Alpinist 8 bindings
- Scarpa Gea Boots
- Adjustable Black diamond carbon fiber poles
- Dakine Heli Pro 20L backpack
- Skins TBD...

We plan to start skiing at NY resorts and maybe finish the season on Mount Marcy.


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## Harvey

I'm on tele, got almost everything I need really. I need skins as usual, I can't seem to make them last more than 2 years.

No real plans, but if it's required I'll be there. Very likely I'll be getting more use out of my Rossi BC 110s in the Siamese Ponds Wilderness.









Wide Waxless Backcountry Skis


Backcountry skis for powder and rolling terrain.




nyskiblog.com


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## Benny Profane

What brand skins do you like, Harvey?


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## Harvey

Benny Profane said:


> What brand skins do you like, Harvey?



I'm not really the guy to ask. 

It seems like the two brands are G3 and Black Diamond. I've used both and they both seem to work well enough?

No matter how well I try to refold them they dry out. I actually tried to reglue a pair once and that didn't turn out well.

Can anyone else give some input? Seems like a separate thread could be useful.


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## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I'm not really the guy to ask.
> 
> It seems like the two brands are G3 and Black Diamond. I've used both and they both seem to work well enough?
> 
> No matter how well I try to refold them they dry out. I actually tried to reglue a pair once and that didn't turn out well.
> 
> Can anyone else give some input? Seems like a separate thread could be useful.


I don’t have that problem. Getting them apart is the hard part for me. My beef is that skins are so expensive. I was about to suggest checking STP so I went and looked. They have a bunch of different ones to choose from around $100-110. I don‘t actually need them right now but there was one deal I couldn’t resist, even though I’ll have to trim them big time when the time comes


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## Harvey

Heard these were solid, from a well-respected former forum member. Picked them up.





__





Climb Pro S-Glide


<p>The Climb Pro S-Glide is the best gliding mix skin ever, the best anti-glopping and the most resistant one. This is the skin for professionals of the mountain for several days' tours.</p>




www.pomoca.com


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## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> Heard these were solid, from a well-respected former forum member. Picked them up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Climb Pro S-Glide
> 
> 
> <p>The Climb Pro S-Glide is the best gliding mix skin ever, the best anti-glopping and the most resistant one. This is the skin for professionals of the mountain for several days' tours.</p>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pomoca.com


I went with the cheaper Black Diamond Ascension Nylon for a first pair. They say they don't glide as well, but grip really well, so, in my jong skinning mind, I figured, that's fine for eastern ice and a first timer.

Now I have to get the Shifts mounted and these cut. I'm considering Catamount and Mt. Snow for first time inbounds skin.


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## marcski

Harvey said:


> Heard these were solid, from a well-respected former forum member. Picked them up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Climb Pro S-Glide
> 
> 
> <p>The Climb Pro S-Glide is the best gliding mix skin ever, the best anti-glopping and the most resistant one. This is the skin for professionals of the mountain for several days' tours.</p>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pomoca.com


I'm not sure which model he was using, but Plake was using Pomoco a couple of seasons ago at Platty. 

My buddy who retired out in SLC, now only backcountry skis and uses these:



https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/glidelite-mohair-mix-sts-skins-BD163715_cfg.html


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## NYSnowflake

I got G3 Scala skins because they fit my short 151cm skis and they were on clearance! I have nothing to compare them to so I guess I will make them work!


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## JTG

I have a pair of BD Ascension nylon and the Guidelite Mohair Pure. Much prefer the Mohair, lighter and more packable, and work just as well as the nylon.


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## gefiltephish

I'm switching from G3 Alpinist to Pomoca Climb 2.0 for this season. Nylon is grippiest, mohair (natural) slides better, the Pomoca is a mix that hopefully performs well and is much lighter. Kept hearing good things about Pomoca, and High Adventure Ski and Bike outside Albany sells them, they also have lots of great BC gear for sale.... 'Waxing' skins during high temp/spring touring can really help from keeping snow from clumping...

NY Snowflake- That's a heck of a setup! I've used my 20L Heli Pro pack for skiing and work for 6+ years now. I'm very happy with my Scarpa Maestrale boots and Kingpin bindings. The binders still work flawlessly at about 150 days!

Any intel on resort policies for uphill this season? That is def. a solid way for new folks to use the gear in a more controlled environment... Hopefully Wyndham still has their accommodating uphill policy from years' past


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## idratherbskiing

gefiltephish said:


> I'm switching from G3 Alpinist to Pomoca Climb 2.0 for this season. Nylon is grippiest, mohair (natural) slides better, the Pomoca is a mix that hopefully performs well and is much lighter. Kept hearing good things about Pomoca, and High Adventure Ski and Bike outside Albany sells them, they also have lots of great BC gear for sale.... 'Waxing' skins during high temp/spring touring can really help from keeping snow from clumping...
> 
> NY Snowflake- That's a heck of a setup! I've used my 20L Heli Pro pack for skiing and work for 6+ years now. I'm very happy with my Scarpa Maestrale boots and Kingpin bindings. The binders still work flawlessly at about 150 days!
> 
> Any intel on resort policies for uphill this season? That is def. a solid way for new folks to use the gear in a more controlled environment... Hopefully Wyndham still has their accommodating uphill policy from years' past


I really hope the landowners at hickory have a change of heart and just folks skin up.


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## Duckbutter

idratherbskiing said:


> I really hope the landowners at hickory have a change of heart and just folks skin up.


Who currently owns Hickory? Are there any plans to open it to the public in some capacity. Weren't there rumors that a backcountry model was under consideration? Maybe that was just my imagination.


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## Harvey

Hickory is owned by a gentlemen who lives in Texas, who grew up in Warrensburg.

He's considered a few different options, some to grow it and some to shrink it. He had even developed a plan, with permits and easements for snowmaking. (The edge of his property is only 1600' feet from the Hudson River and there is only one property owner between he and the water supply.)

There are two at least things that prevent HSC from reopening. The biggest one is the math. If Hickory was to have perfect luck with weather and was able to open every weekend and holiday in a season, and every Poma disc had a butt in it, it couldn't cover it's cost. To increase capacity, you'd need chairlifts. You're looking at millions (~5?) in snowmaking and lifts for a ski area at 700 feet, while winters seem to be getting less snowy. B is a very successful guy, and he didn't get there by gambling millions on long shots.

The second thing is that he lives far from the ski area, and was willing to lose money on it for a while. (He once told me that he lost less money in a season when he didn't open. Think about that.) To manage the property he needed people on site that he trusted and he got burned more than once.

There is no upside for the owner to allow skinning. For him there is no upside.

It's a rocky hill that needs a ton of snow to cover the steeps. If it snows that much at that elevation there's likely better skiing at other nearby higher elevations. IMO skiers who've enjoyed great days on that hill should cherish those memories and respect the wishes of the guy who made it all possible.

I'll never forget my days there.


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## Duckbutter

That all makes sense and sure is depressing


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## idratherbskiing

Are there any groups like RASTA or Catamount Trail based in NYS?


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## MC2

idratherbskiing said:


> Are there any groups like RASTA or Catamount Trail based in NYS?


BETA & APSA


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## Duckbutter

MC2 said:


> BETA & APSA


The main difference seems, and I'm sure others on this forum have a much better sense about this than I, is that the US Forest Service seems to be a much better partner for these groups operating in VT and NH compared to the DEC.

Simply backcountry ski trails need regular maintenance and thinning of understory in the NE and NYS seems reluctant to allow that from my understanding. I sort of understand this in Wilderness Areas, but what would it take to, for example, allow a volunteer group to cut glades in Vanderwhacker Wild Forest?


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## Harvey

Duckbutter said:


> what would it take to, for example, allow a volunteer group to cut glades in Vanderwhacker Wild Forest?



Not sure where in the Vandy you are thinking, as it is a very widespread area, but this is happening, and I don't believe it is clandestine.

Do you ski in the east?


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## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> Hickory is owned by a gentlemen who lives in Texas, who grew up in Warrensburg.
> 
> He's considered a few different options, some to grow it and some to shrink it. He had even developed a plan, with permits and easements for snowmaking. (The edge of his property is only 1600' feet from the Hudson River and there is only one property owner between he and the water supply.)
> 
> There are two at least things that prevent HSC from reopening. The biggest one is the math. If Hickory was to have perfect luck with weather and was able to open every weekend and holiday in a season, and every Poma disc had a butt in it, it couldn't cover it's cost. To increase capacity, you'd need chairlifts. You're looking at millions (~5?) in snowmaking and lifts for a ski area at 700 feet, while winters seem to be getting less snowy. B is a very successful guy, and he didn't get there by gambling millions on long shots.
> 
> The second thing is that he lives far from the ski area, and was willing to lose money on it for a while. (He once told me that he lost less money in a season when he didn't open. Think about that.) To manage the property he needed people on site that he trusted and he got burned more than once.
> 
> There is no upside for the owner to allow skinning. For him there is no upside.
> 
> It's a rocky hill that needs a ton of snow to cover the steeps. If it snows that much at that elevation there's likely better skiing at other nearby higher elevations. IMO skiers who've enjoyed great days on that hill should cherish those memories and respect the wishes of the guy who made it all possible.
> 
> I'll never forget my days there.


Let's not forget the existence of a heavily state subsidized ski hill just a half hour up 28, distracting possible customers. Twice I drove up to Hickory, learned that they wouldn't be open until at least 10am, and just jumped in the car and I was skiing Gore in 45 minutes.


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## gefiltephish

Duckbutter said:


> The main difference seems, and I'm sure others on this forum have a much better sense about this than I, is that the US Forest Service seems to be a much better partner for these groups operating in VT and NH compared to the DEC.
> 
> Simply backcountry ski trails need regular maintenance and thinning of understory in the NE and NYS seems reluctant to allow that from my understanding. I sort of understand this in Wilderness Areas, but what would it take to, for example, allow a volunteer group to cut glades in Vanderwhacker Wild Forest?


In terms of ski trails on public land, NY seems difficult. NY 'Forever Wild' lands like Catskill and ADK make it very difficult to design/build new trail or rehab forgotten ones that'd make for good skiing. Multi-use trails are definitely prioritized over sport specific trails, although there are definitely some 'specified' trails (Hunter firetower path for horses, canoe portages in the Dacks). I believe the removal of trees (of any diameter) was not allowed on a BETA (Barkeaters Trail Alliance) mtb trail project near Saranac. That same BETA group maintains the Jackrabbit Ski trail from Keene Valley to Placid. Seems mostly XC skiing, curious about access steeper terrain. As a side note, the BETA mountain bike trails in the region kick ass! 

I wonder if these same 'red tape' issues play in to repairs/reroutes on many old, eroded falls line trails in the Catskills and 'Dacks. Similar struggles in managing USFS wilderness areas I suppose, but at least there are non-wilderness Forest lands... I'd be very surprised (and stoked) to hear of DEC working on a ski glade project. I'm very curious about Adirondack Powder Skier Association, anyone hear of that group?


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## Harvey

MC2 said:


> BETA & APSA



MC has.

This is really the stated goal of ASPA. The way I understand it, to get the state to create an create a wider definition for "ski trails" to allow glading or multiple lines. Most official (DEC) ski trails now or really more nordic or XCD.


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## idratherbskiing

MC2 said:


> BETA & APSA


thanks!


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## idratherbskiing

Benny Profane said:


> Let's not forget the existence of a heavily state subsidized ski hill just a half hour up 28, distracting possible customers. Twice I drove up to Hickory, learned that they wouldn't be open until at least 10am, and just jumped in the car and I was skiing Gore in 45 minutes.


Im all for Gore when lifts spin, but I was hoping for some easy dawn patrol from LG village on work days. New to the area


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## Duckbutter

Harvey said:


> Not sure where in the Vandy you are thinking, as it is a very widespread area, but this is happening, and I don't believe it is clandestine.


That's exciting! I was just speaking generally and wondering if one would be able to pull this off at all in a legal fashion.


Harvey said:


> Do you ski in the east?


I have. I grew up doing so and may be again soon. Long time listener, first time caller. The reason that I became active on this forum recently is to try to get a sense for the BC scene and potential.


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## Duckbutter

Harvey said:


> This is really the stated goal of ASPA. The way I understand it, to get the state to create an create a wider definition for "ski trails" to allow glading or multiple lines. Most official (DEC) ski trails now or really more nordic or XCD.



It seems like they've been at this for a long time and I'm grateful that someone is spearheading the cause but it doesn't seem like much progress has been made, at least from my researching. I may be wrong and I hope I am.


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## Harvey

Duckbutter said:


> Long time listener, first time caller.


??? "Eeeeeh... I don know Mikey!"



Duckbutter said:


> It seems like they've been at this for a long time and I'm grateful that someone is spearheading the cause but it doesn't seem like much progress has been made, at least from my researching. I may be wrong and I hope I am.



I have no concrete proof.


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## Duckbutter

gefiltephish said:


> Multi-use trails are definitely prioritized over sport specific trails


What is a multi-use trail? Is mountain biking allowed on these? Nordic skiing? And this goes back to the root of the issue and I suppose the idea of redefining a _ski trail_ because a glade is really nothing at all like a trail. There is no disturbance to the soil or ground, erosion, etc.



gefiltephish said:


> Similar struggles in managing USFS wilderness areas I suppose, but at least there are non-wilderness Forest lands


Yeah, there are a lot of non-wilderness areas in the USFS system.

One thing that strikes me, and I am sure this has been discussed elsewhere on this forum, is if you look at TrailForks there seems to be a vast network of snowmobile trails all across the north country and really very little of other activities, even non-winter. Yes, I'm sure there are lots of hiking trails but who really cares about hiking.  Kidding.




Now granted this is data provided by the users and perhaps the snowmobile community is just better at documenting their trails than other groups but I suspect there is some truth to this. I have nothing against snowmobiles and even hope to own *one* someday but it just seems weird that growing sports that promote health and fitness such as backcountry skiing and mountain biking have such a tough time growing on public land in the region.


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## Campgottagopee

Duckbutter said:


> What is a multi-use trail? Is mountain biking allowed on these? Nordic skiing? And this goes back to the root of the issue and I suppose the idea of redefining a _ski trail_ because a glade is really nothing at all like a trail. There is no disturbance to the soil or ground, erosion, etc.
> 
> 
> Yeah, there are a lot of non-wilderness areas in the USFS system.
> 
> One thing that strikes me, and I am sure this has been discussed elsewhere on this forum, is if you look at TrailForks there seems to be a vast network of snowmobile trails all across the north country and really very little of other activities, even non-winter. Yes, I'm sure there are lots of hiking trails but who really cares about hiking.  Kidding.
> View attachment 6772
> 
> Now granted this is data provided by the users and perhaps the snowmobile community is just better at documenting their trails than other groups but I suspect there is some truth to this. I have nothing against snowmobiles and even hope to own *one* someday but it just seems weird that growing sports that promote health and fitness such as backcountry skiing and mountain biking have such a tough time growing on public land in the region.


North country businesses would crumble up and blow away if it wasn't for the revenue generated by snowmobilers. That's the number one reason. Another reason is our registration monies go to the snowmobile clubs who maintain the trails.
A bunch of hippies clomping around in the woods won't bring that kind of cash to the region. (That was a joke)


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## Duckbutter

Campgottagopee said:


> North country businesses would crumble up and blow away if it wasn't for the revenue generated by snowmobilers. That's the number one reason. Another reason is our registration monies go to the snowmobile clubs who maintain the trails.
> A bunch of hippies clomping around in the woods won't bring that kind of cash to the region. (That was a joke)


Why can't it be and instead of or. In VT the snowmobile trails form an access network that bc skiers use and benefit from.

I'm sure a tree has never been cut down to build a snowmobile trail.


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## Campgottagopee

Duckbutter said:


> Why can't it be and instead of or. In VT the snowmobile trails form an access network that bc skiers use and benefit from.
> 
> I'm sure a tree has never been cut down to build a snowmobile trail.



Same here in NY, that's what the multi use trails are

Yes, trees are cut down to make any trails


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## Brownski

Somebody can correct me or add detail but this is my understanding: It is due to the “forever wild” language in the constitution. The state’s interpretation has changed over the years. Trails that were cut a long time ago when they interpreted it loosely are grandfathered in but new projects are very difficult to get permitted


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## Duckbutter

Brownski said:


> Somebody can correct me or add detail but this is my understanding: It is due to the “forever wild” language in the constitution. The state’s interpretation has changed over the years.


You are probably right. I would like to get confirmation on this as well. There are different Forest Preserve classifications and one would assume that "Wild Forest" and certainly "Intensive Use" (E.g. Gore, Belleayre, Whiteface) could accommodate this type of recreation development, as opposed to designated Wilderness.


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## Duckbutter

Duckbutter said:


> You are probably right. I would like to get confirmation on this as well. There are different Forest Preserve classifications and one would assume that "Wild Forest" and certainly "Intensive Use" (E.g. Gore, Belleayre, Whiteface) could accommodate this type of recreation development, as opposed to designated Wilderness.


Oops. Should have actually read what I shared:

_"A wild forest area is an area of Forest Preserve land whose character as a natural plant and animal community receives the same degree of protection under Article XIV of the Constitution as in areas classified as wilderness"_

And that only applies to land within the Catskill and Adirondack Parks, right?


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## gefiltephish

At least skiing is allowed in most 'Forever Wild' lands, to my knowledge. As a mountain biker in Catskill park, I can rip awesome trails on private lands at Roundtop and at 'Elm Ridge _Wild Forest_' but not continue into the 'Windham-Blackhead Range _Wilderness'_. In terms of Dacks snowmobiling, imo the abundant trails make sense, given the snowpack and historic roadbeds. Not sure, but snowmachine folks don't need steeps to get their tingles? Here are some thoughts about backcountry skiing in these areas...

I figure the Dacks would be offer good XC skiing, but seems limited for shorter laps with heavy AT gear. The terrain also doesn't seem as conducive to my lazy dream of a quick hike in to a continuous 500'+ vert of solid 20-40 degree downhill, without major terrain traps. My knowledge-base for backcountry 'round there is nil, I live too far to scout potential areas. I bought a 'Slides Guide' which contains only aerial photos of many Dacks slides, many of which look like they would be insanely fun, challenging, potentially very dangerous. I imagine most/all require extensive approaches, potential mandatory mountaineering/rapel/ice climbing moves. In a normal time perhaps an excuse to hire a guide and gain some skills.

I've been hiking some historic road/trail routes in the Catskills, Taconics, and Gunks that could be good with 1-2 feet of snow. Obviously snowpack is a limiting factor here, but hiking round some relic ski areas recently has got the stoke building! If anyone wants to connect and potentially do some AT skiing this winter, feel free to send a message


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## Duckbutter

gefiltephish said:


> my lazy dream of a quick hike in to a continuous 500'+ vert of solid 20-40 degree downhill, without major terrain traps.


I share this dream


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## Ski4

Considering the size of the Adirondack Park, it is surprisingly difficult to find suitable terrain for Alpine touring. Most New York State ski areas, for insurance reasons unique to the state, do not allow uphill travel. Historically that has meant driving to Vermont ski areas, though this may not be possible this year. Vermont seems to be years ahead of us considering what they have done with areas like Hogback mountain and RASTA.


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## Harvey

I propose removing the timeframe to this thread name. @NYSnowflake agree?

It's timeless stuff and Xenforo threads don't crap out at 100 pages the way Nabble did.


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## Duckbutter

Ski4 said:


> Considering the size of the Adirondack Park, it is surprisingly difficult to find suitable terrain for Alpine touring.


Please be more specific. Long flat approaches to steeps? Vegetation is too thick (not actually a terrain problem)?



Ski4 said:


> Most New York State ski areas, for insurance reasons unique to the state, do not allow uphill travel.


Whiteface allows it, correct? Why is this not consistent across the ORDA hills?


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## JTG

Whiteface has allowed it for dawn patrol, but there is no uphill traffic allowed once the lifts are running.


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## gorgonzola

Harvey said:


> I propose removing the timeframe to this thread name. @NYSnowflake agree?
> 
> It's timeless stuff and Xenforo threads don't crap out at 100 pages the way Nabble did.


you could remove alpine too for the freeheelers! 
What's the deal with Lyon Mountain? spent some time in those woods as a kid


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## marcski

Ski4 said:


> Considering the size of the Adirondack Park, it is surprisingly difficult to find suitable terrain for Alpine touring. Most New York State ski areas, for insurance reasons unique to the state, do not allow uphill travel. Historically that has meant driving to Vermont ski areas, though this may not be possible this year. Vermont seems to be years ahead of us considering what they have done with areas like Hogback mountain and RASTA.


Add this as well: https://www.dhash4vt.org/ The old Dutch Hill Ski area. Sure to get lots of action this season.


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## marcski

gorgonzola said:


> you could remove alpine too for the freeheelers!
> What's the deal with Lyon Mountain? spent some time in those woods as a kid


 Gorgo, giving freeheel some love. I like it!


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## Harvey

gorgonzola said:


> you could remove alpine too for the freeheelers!



I'm guessing what I call touring and what @Duckbutter calls touring are very different.

Who here, when they say "Alpine Touring" means an activity where the primary goal is seeking out downhill lines? 

When we tour in the Siamese, it's different thing. My interpretation of touring:









Wide Waxless Backcountry Skis


Backcountry skis for powder and rolling terrain.




nyskiblog.com













Winter Camping Alone: High Adventure


I didn't plan to go solo.




nyskiblog.com


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## MC2

Ski4 said:


> Considering the size of the Adirondack Park, it is surprisingly difficult to find suitable terrain for Alpine touring.


Yep. There’s nothing to ski in the ADKs. I suggest that everyone go to Vermont & New Hampshire. The skiing is great there.

?


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## Duckbutter

Harvey said:


> I'm guessing what I call touring and what @Duckbutter calls touring are very different.


@Harvey, I think we are on similar pages or at least reading from the same chapter. I myself use the term touring pretty liberally and enjoy all flavors (nnn, nnn-bc, 75mm, *NTN!*) just as long as my heel is unencumbered. But, I do think there is a delineation, not so much gear-related, but where the activity becomes more _turn focused_. And while I enjoy a tight bobsled singetrack run through the deep forest as much as the next guy, my happy place is a wooded area with at least several "lanes" of potential descent.

In terms of uphill skiing, the original focus of this thread, and I apologize for contributing to the drift with bringing up land management issues, if anyone hasn't tried a skinless setup (fish scales) I highly recommend it. Yes, if you're intent is to ski something steep enough to get turns in you'll be taking a longer (but easier) route up. And 0 transition at the top is really nice. 

In terms of skins, I've gotten many recommendations for Pomoca skins from touring partners. The Climb 2.0 seems like a good general purpose model that would work well in the east. I believe they are a nylon / mohair mix. 

A few years ago I bought skins from ClimbingSkinsDirect. They were made and sold buy a guy out of JH who had the recipe for the original purple BD Ascensions. They were cheap but absorb water like sponges. Not really a big deal in the Northern Rockies but not ideal for a wetter zone. Anyway, they seem to be shutdown now anyway. I think these guys are carrying the torch of that style dependable nylon direct to consumer skin. Actually they sell them out of a van on the way to Bridger Bowl... not quite brick & mortar retail. 

Then there are the other usual suspects BD, G3, G3/Backcountry and even a bunch of ski companies are jumping into the market as the backcountry sector surges. Choosing skins that sacrifice grip for glide becomes important for the spandex crowd and people regularly putting in long days especially with rolling approaches but if I skied <10 backcountry days a year I would go with something that is durable and really grips well. It's super frustrating to be sliding backwards on the uptrack. Good technique can mitigate this too.

This is a thorough current article on the topic - Climbing Skins: A Guide & Comparisons


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## gorgonzola

Harvey said:


> I'm guessing what I call touring and what @Duckbutter calls touring are very different.
> 
> Who here, when they say "Alpine Touring" means an activity where the primary goal is seeking out downhill lines?
> 
> When we tour in the Siamese, it's different thing. My interpretation of touring:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wide Waxless Backcountry Skis
> 
> 
> Backcountry skis for powder and rolling terrain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nyskiblog.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Winter Camping Alone: High Adventure
> 
> 
> I didn't plan to go solo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nyskiblog.com


maybe we need to reincarnate the XCD thread!? That Mikey guy went off the rails but he did bring the BCxCD stoke


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## idratherbskiing

JTG said:


> Whiteface has allowed it for dawn patrol, but there is no uphill traffic allowed once the lifts are running.


Why doesnt Gore?


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## Harvey

idratherbskiing said:


> Why doesnt Gore?


I think Aaron is the difference at Whiteface. He's closely tied to the local uphill culture/crowd.

No uphill at Gore or Belle.


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## idratherbskiing

Harvey said:


> I think Aaron is the difference at Whiteface. He's closely tied to the local uphill culture/crowd.
> 
> No uphill at Gore or Belle.


And just like that...it seems that Whiteface has changed the uphill policy and added a 60$ fee.


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## Harvey

No laugh from me. I'm sure you are not alone. I'm guessing there will be more demand than supply in NY.

Also just my advice, don't be mad an anyone in particular, if you don't know the particulars.


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## idratherbskiing

Harvey said:


> No laugh from me. I'm sure you are not alone. I'm guessing there will be more demand than supply in NY.
> 
> Also just my advice, don't be mad an anyone in particular, if you don't know the particulars.


just realized that I posted a draft message ive edited. (?‍♂️) Not mad, bummed out. Im sure there is a reason


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## JTG

COVID or not, me thinks the $129 uphill season pass is a travesty. They wanna make up for lower revenue due to capacity restrictions on the backs of the few hearty souls willing to hump it uphill for a few hours for the privilege of one run? I don’t think so. Before that crazy price increase the demand to uphill in a two hour window three days a week at WF was going to be nil. At $129 for the season or $29 a day it’ll be even less. Maybe if they were going to have a dedicated uphill route during operating hours that price would fly, but even Scotty ain’t gonna pay no $129 for a few dawn patrols I’d bet!


----------



## Harvey

JTG said:


> Scotty ain’t gonna pay


Bet you are right about that.

If I was local, I'd pay it. Not saying it's the right price, just that I would pay.


----------



## JTG

idratherbskiing said:


> Im sure there is a reason


Not a good one! Magic’s uphill policy, pre and during COVID, is one that makes sense. As someone who has had several WF uphill season passes in years gone by I call bullshit!


----------



## idratherbskiing

JTG said:


> Not a good one! Magic’s uphill policy, pre and during COVID, is one that makes sense. As someone who has had several WF uphill season passes in years gone by I call bullshit!


Magic's is one of if not the best one around!


----------



## raisingarizona

That groomed, machine made snow isn’t cheap.

That being said there’s no way in hell I’d get up for a dawn patrol to climb for a groomer anymore. No thanks. I mean, why bother when there’s perfectly good chair lifts for that sort of thing!


----------



## Huezee

Skied the Pass solo yesterday. Great conditions. Roughly 10-12 cars in the parking lot around 12:30 with the majority from Mass. Looks like it may be a busy season for BC skiing. Felt sorry for the guy that forgot his skins. Looked like someone took a snowmobile up to the summit and chewed up some of the snow but it wasn't terrible. Unfortunately my wife called with car trouble and I had to cut my day short after one lap. Found a mitten and placed it at the trailhead bulletin board. Definitely going back to ski more. Today it is quite warm (~34F) so I anticipate the snow will settle and form a base. Hopefully Thursday's predicted rains don't do too much damage.  

P.S. I forgot how heavy my AT setup is. Dukes on Mantras makes the uphill a slog. Any suggestions for a replacement for my Garmont Shoguns? I love them but they are getting pretty old and I'm looking for something similar. Unfortunately Garmont no longer makes AT boots.


----------



## Stan_dupp

If you like harmony and the got is good look at scott boots they bought garmont a few years back same molds same boots ish


----------



## marcski

Huezee said:


> P.S. I forgot how heavy my AT setup is. Dukes on Mantras makes the uphill a slog. Any suggestions for a replacement for my Garmont Shoguns? I love them but they are getting pretty old and I'm looking for something similar. Unfortunately Garmont no longer makes AT boots.


I never thought Mrs. Jefferson was a skier. I stand corrected!


----------



## Huezee

marcski said:


> I never thought Mrs. Jefferson was a skier. I stand corrected!


I'm lost... what?


----------



## marcski

Just a play on your screenname. Perhaps, I'm showing my age... The Jeffersons was a TV show in the 1970's. A spin-off of All in the Family actually. Mrs. George Jefferson's first name in the show (or at least her nickname) was Weezy.


----------



## Brownski

marcski said:


> Just a play on your screenname. Perhaps, I'm showing my age... The Jeffersons was a TV show in the 1970's. A spin-off of All in the Family actually. Mrs. George Jefferson's first name in the show (or at least her nickname) was Weezy.


Great show by the way


----------



## gefiltephish

@Huezee I'm pretty sure the Garmont boots live on, rebranded as Scott. Def happened this way w several NTN (tele) boots


----------



## Huezee

gefiltephish said:


> @Huezee I'm pretty sure the Garmont boots live on, rebranded as Scott. Def happened this way w several NTN (tele) boots


That looks accurate. I like the looks and features of the Cosmos III but the flex is only 115. The Shogun was 130 and that was perfect (as a former racer).


----------



## JTG

I think this may be the year I invest in a new setup for me, which will make an AT setup available to both my sons. This way if we can’t resort ski at WF over MLK weekend maybe there will be enough snow for us all to go hit the Wilmington Slide or something.


----------



## Ripitz

Hello, I just want to jump in here as a new member and share my enthusiasm with my new setup. I bought the Voile Ultravector BC with traction base and Fritschi Vipec Evo 12 bindings from the Mountaineer in Keene. I cannot emphasize enough how helpful those guys are there. Because of COVID I wasn’t sure when I could get up there (I live in Fishkill) so they mailed them to me and I had them mounted at Ski Haus in Brewster. They have been helpful as well especially with boot fitting the Salomon S/lab boots I purchased from them. I have skied many alpine touring setups over the years and this by far has been my favorite. No skins and quick transitions have been a game changer for pasture skiing and logging roads. I can push / pull my 3 year old daughter easily on our backyard sled hill and they held their own skiing with her off the gondola at the Bell. I look forward to easy sidecountry laps and some long rolling tours. 

Also, as far as skins go I would recommend the Pomoca S/glide Tipon. They are light, waterproof and glueless. I got them at Skimo.com


----------



## JTG

Nice, glad Ski Haus was able to do the mount. Stinks the Wappingers location closed. When I had Dynafits to mount a few years ago nobody down here could do it, had it done at High Peaks Cyclery in Placid.


----------



## Flying Z

Ripitz said:


> Hello, I just want to jump in here as a new member and share my enthusiasm with my new setup. I bought the Voile Ultravector BC with traction base and Fritschi Vipec Evo 12 bindings from the Mountaineer in Keene. I cannot emphasize enough how helpful those guys are there. Because of COVID I wasn’t sure when I could get up there (I live in Fishkill) so they mailed them to me and I had them mounted at Ski Haus in Brewster. They have been helpful as well especially with boot fitting the Salomon S/lab boots I purchased from them. I have skied many alpine touring setups over the years and this by far has been my favorite. No skins and quick transitions have been a game changer for pasture skiing and logging roads.


Nice looking set up. Did you go short with these or size it similar to a alpine set up?


----------



## Ripitz

I’m 5’7” and 160lbs, I went for the 177cm


----------



## JTG

Good question. I normally ski a 184 now. Down from the good old 204 Comp SL days. I may have a opportunity to pick up a new pair of Dynafit Beast 98 skis with the Speedskins (also new) for $550. That’s a pretty good deal....but they are 177. They come up just above my chin, at 6’4” 185. What’s your guys thinking on touring setups, is shorter ok?


----------



## Ripitz

JTG said:


> Good question. I normally ski a 184 now. Down from the good old 204 Comp SL days. I may have a opportunity to pick up a new pair of Dynafit Beast 98 skis with the Speedskins (also new) for $550. That’s a pretty good deal....but they are 177. They come up just above my chin, at 6’4” 185. What’s your guys thinking on touring setups, is shorter ok?


----------



## marcski

JTG said:


> Good question. I normally ski a 184 now. Down from the good old 204 Comp SL days. I may have a opportunity to pick up a new pair of Dynafit Beast 98 skis with the Speedskins (also new) for $550. That’s a pretty good deal....but they are 177. They come up just above my chin, at 6’4” 185. What’s your guys thinking on touring setups, is shorter ok?


I'm told shorter is better. IMHO, when buying a dedicated touring setup, it is more about the up. A shorter ski will necessarily be a bit lighter, but more importantly, but good buddy who lives at the base of the canyon in Utah and no longer takes lifts and only tours now, says a shorter ski is also easier to move around on the up with kick-turns, etc. Plus, if you're normally on a ski that is in the low to mid 180's you're talking about 5-7 cms or about 3 inches.


----------



## Ripitz

I grew up skiing long sticks also. Never had skis under 200cm. Now I ski a 184cm Stockli Stormrider which is great if you have lots of room. Shorter will definitely be better in the trees and lighter on tours. Longer will give you better glide and support additional weight when hauling gear. I think going shorter in the East is a better option. In the Voile product reviews someone posted they thru skied the Catamount trail on a pair of 164cm! Agility and the ability to stop makes for a safer day on East coast tight terrain


----------



## moonie386

I've been dabbling in AT / XCD for a few years now. Living in WNY there is limited terrain. I've found over the years that my expectations adjust to the reality of the terrain that is easily accessible to me. I started out thinking I was going to be able to lap runs similar to a resort glade. Then I went almost all the way to Classic XC just to get out on the snow. The past few years I've been trying to get closer to the middle ground. 

For reference:
Male, 6', 210LBs

I started with this:

1st AT setup - Way overkill for WNY (Young and dumb purchase)
- Line skis (Not sure what model, not made anymore i don't think) 179cm 106mm waist
- Salomon Guardian Frame Binding
- G3 Skins
- Dynafit ZZero boots

Then I got these for trails closer to home. I use these often and they are great for rolling terrain but they don't turn great.
1st XCD Setup
- Fischer SBound 78
- Rottefella Magnum Manual NNNBC Binding
- Alpina NNNBC Boots (Old model, not in current lineup)

With the covid mess this year I figured it made sense to reinvest in some AT/XCD gear so I could still ski if the resorts are brutal.

2nd AT setup - This should be way lighter and more convenient not having to mess with skins as much (I hope)
- Voile Ultravector BC 177
- G3 Ion 12
- Dynafit ZZero Boots

2nd XCD setup - This should handle downhill way better than the 1st XCD setup. I'll probably get some light plastic boots in the future. 
- Madshus Annum 175
- Voile 3-Pin Cable Traverse Tele binding
- Crispi Svartisen Boots 3 pin 75mm

My goal for this year is the same as it is every year; try to find more spots with few people and lots of turns. Unfortunately covid has turned everyone into an outdoorsman. Fishing was brutal this fall.

Hoping to get to ADK a couple times.
Spending a few days at fishing camp in Catskills (East Branch). Never skied here before but there is 1000ft of skiable vertical in the back yard. If anyone has experience in the area I'm all ears.

Other than that it'll mostly be day trips around WNY and CNY. Lots of nordic ski centers in the area but I'm not sure how they will like me poking around for turns on their trails. 

I had an XCD trip report on the old forum a few years ago for Hunters Creek Park near East Aurora. That's always a good spot if lake effect hits it.


----------



## Ripitz

The Annum is a great ski. I have them with NNN BC bindings and Alpina Alaskan boots. I went with the 185cm because cross country is more of my objective with that setup. Great for pasture skiing and bushwhack adventures. I skied up/down Magic with them and although you can turn them they are not downhill focused. They are light and foamy with lots of camber. I got the Alaskan NNN because I want to use them with Nordic ice skates. The Crispis with 3 pins will give you much more control. I have BD kicker skins for them but haven’t needed them yet for the up. They are helpful on the down for speed control on tight trails like the top/steep section of Marcy. Definitely a great setup they are super fun!


----------



## marcski

I have a pair of XCD's, with Alpina boots (a low leather boot with a duckbill) and a Voile 3 pin (not sure of the model). I've had them for years and use them mostly for bushwhacking the local trails when there is snow. I bought them for local use and use them in marginal conditions. They have seen their day. I'll try and find another pair of skis and just transfer the bindings and the boots are still good to go. But, I'm waiting for my real BC skis to come in the mail....and I still need to pickup some binders for those. XCD's are down on the list at the moment.


----------



## Belaña

Voile glueless technology skins...


----------



## raisingarizona

I let a rep talk me into buying glue-less skins about 8 years ago. Worst skins ever, after one tour I returned them and told the rep they were dangerous. I couldn’t get them to work after two transitions as the wind was blowing snow around on a bitterly cold day. I was left deep on the backside without functioning skins.


----------



## Harvey

moonie386 said:


> I had an XCD trip report on the old forum a few years ago for Hunters Creek Park near East Aurora.


@moonie386 help me find this, I would like to bring it over.


----------



## Harvey

All, I would be very careful with NNN bindings in the backcountry. I was put in a terrifying situation with those bindings on a super cold and deep day in the Siamese Ponds Wilderness.

If they are still made the way they were then, there is no way to chip ice away from the inside of the bindings. And because some parts are plastic you have to be very careful about using a fire to clear the binding.


----------



## moonie386

Harvey said:


> @moonie386 help me find this, I would like to bring it over.


I’ll take a look and see if I can find it


----------



## moonie386

moonie386 said:


> I’ll take a look and see if I can find it







__





Trip Reports Archive - Hunters Creek County Park XCD - 1/26/19


Hunters Creek County Park XCD - 1/26/19. I was home alone with the dog for a weekend and looking to get out in the snow. The Niagara frontier is still recovering from the rain last week and most of the...



forum.nyskiblog.com





I know there’s a post for how to bring them over to new forum but I’m on a phone now. When I get on my computer I’ll look it up. Putting the link to archive here for now


----------



## Harvey

I can do it when I feel better. Maybe remind me in a couple weeks.


----------



## JTG

Anybody have any downsides to purchasing the Shift MNC 10, as opposed to the 13? I can get the 10s cheaper and I’ll never set a DIN higher than 10.


----------



## moonie386

JTG said:


> Anybody have any downsides to purchasing the Shift MNC 10, as opposed to the 13? I can get the 10s cheaper and I’ll never set a DIN higher than 10.


I was going to buy shifts for voile ultravector bcs but one of the Fey brothers at telemarkdown talked me into G3 ions. I'm going to mount them tonight or tomorrow and hopefully get out this weekend. Had to mount some other skis first to my confidence up for tech binding. Can't wait any longer, lake effect is here.


----------



## JTG

moonie386 said:


> I was going to buy shifts for voile ultravector bcs but one of the Fey brothers at telemarkdown talked me into G3 ions. I'm going to mount them tonight or tomorrow and hopefully get out this weekend. Had to mount some other skis first to my confidence up for tech binding. Can't wait any longer, lake effect is here.


Have fun with them. If you were looking for a dedicated touring binding the Ion may be a better choice. I’m looking for something a little more reliable for typical resort use as my setup serve dual purpose. The pin toes in the Dynafit and G3 bindings just don’t like firm/icy conditions.


----------



## Ripitz

moonie386 said:


> I was going to buy shifts for voile ultravector bcs but one of the Fey brothers at telemarkdown talked me into G3 ions.


Good call, I think the Shifts would be overkill for the Ultracector BCs. Plus you have to take your ski off to transition. No big deal when you are using skins, but with a traction base and tech the beauty is that you can stay in, just flip and go, on the up or down. The only downside I’ve seen with the tech setup so far is that when we lap the gondola it is a PIA to re-enter the pins each time. With the Shifts I don’t have that little annoyance


----------



## Ripitz

JTG said:


> Anybody have any downsides to purchasing the Shift MNC 10, as opposed to the 13? I can get the 10s cheaper and I’ll never set a DIN higher than 10.


I suppose it is dependent on your weight and how hard you’re gonna charge. I personally wouldn’t max out a DIN setting. If you are gonna huck 50 ft cliffs go with the 13


----------



## JTG

Not a heavy guy, no hucking here, don’t think I’ve ever had my DIN set higher than 9 on alpine bindings.


----------



## raisingarizona

JTG said:


> Not a heavy guy, no hucking here, don’t think I’ve ever had my DIN set higher than 9 on alpine bindings.


Then they’re perfect. I was about to by some salomons with a 16 but decided I don’t need that anymore. I went with the 13’s. I still keep mine at 12.

is there a weight difference? It would be cool to shave some ounces too.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> I suppose it is dependent on your weight and how hard you’re gonna charge. I personally wouldn’t max out a DIN setting. If you are gonna huck 50 ft cliffs go with the 13


Yup. I’ve always went with the old adage to roll em back one full number below the top.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> is there a weight difference? It would be cool to shave some ounces too.


From what I remember the only difference is in the springs. I’m sure wildsnow could tell you


----------



## gefiltephish

Ripitz said:


> From what I remember the only difference is in the springs. I’m sure wildsnow could tell you


Not sure, I'd feel like about the 10s. Did similar w my Kingpins, another great option


----------



## Ripitz

JTG said:


> Anybody have any downsides to purchasing the Shift MNC 10, as opposed to the 13? I can get the 10s cheaper and I’ll never set a DIN higher than 10.


What is the ski that you plan on mounting?


----------



## idratherbskiing

Go with the 10's. Like the old days of the Duke vs the Barron. if you aren't over 200lbs or hucking cliffs the 10 will be enough


----------



## JTG

raisingarizona said:


> is there a weight difference? It would be cool to shave some ounces too.


About 10g per binding, so minimal.


----------



## JTG

Ripitz said:


> What is the ski that you plan on mounting?


Leaning toward the Elan Ripstick 96 Black Edition. Also considering replacing the Radical FT on my K2 Marksman.


----------



## ADKmike

JTG said:


> Anybody have any downsides to purchasing the Shift MNC 10, as opposed to the 13? I can get the 10s cheaper and I’ll never set a DIN higher than 10.


Isn’t the ideal thing to be closer to the middle of the springs range vs its limits? I’m assuming you ski a 9 based on above comment?


----------



## JTG

ADKmike said:


> Isn’t the ideal thing to be closer to the middle of the springs range vs its limits? I’m assuming you ski a 9 based on above comment?


Yeah, I ski with my Baron’s and other alpine bindings at 9, but they all go to 13.

That’s exactly what I was wondering....is it better (for function and wear) to keep the DIN below max. This could very well be my last new setup so I’ll want them to last for a good long while.

Won’t really save that much going with the 10 vs the 13, so maybe I’ll just spend the few bucks more.


----------



## raisingarizona

ADKmike said:


> Isn’t the ideal thing to be closer to the middle of the springs range vs its limits? I’m assuming you ski a 9 based on above comment?


I’ve been rolling mine back one or two off the top setting for almost 30 years now with no issues. That would be with the old standard civilian dins of 14. I’d get my hands on used green springs every now and then and keep those around 13-15. I’ve had green spring salomons that went up to 18 and markers that had a din of 21. Those markers were the ones with the sketchy toe pieces though, they didn’t lock ya in like those salomons.

Those shitty toe wings may have saved my life back in 06 when I was slid in Telluride. I was getting pulled under but managed to pop my boot out of the toe piece before being submerged.


----------



## Huezee

Be smart out there: https://www.necn.com/news/local/backcountry-skier-killed-in-mt-washington-avalanche/2398534/


----------



## Ripitz

13ft!


----------



## JTG

In the last week that makes skiing related avalanche deaths in NH, UT, CO, and NorCal.

Most likely storm/wind slab in NH but it’ll be interesting to see when MWAC posts the incident report, to note what kind of dangers are setting up in the east and might affect ADK BC.

Out west it’s PWL issues in a shitty, low snowpack. The PNW a deeper snowpack and has been unscathed so far, but with recent new snow the avy forecast is High in several area. While PWL doesn’t seem as pervasive in the PNW, reports note weak layers deep in the snowpack with the potential for catastrophic slab avalanches as much as 4’ deep.

Unless I get to some ADK slides, skins are staying in the closet until April....


----------



## Huezee

Someone posted photos of some slides within the treeline from Maine on the BC Touring in the NE FB page. Pretty sketchy.

I'm interested in seeing the after action as well. FWIW here's the archived forecast for the day in question: https://mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/forecast/#/presidential-range/95531

Edit: the slide may have occurred on Monday.


----------



## Ripitz

Patience is a virtue. Stick to low angle pow until everything binds. Not a lot of avy forecasting in NE. You have to make your own judgements. Trees do not equal safety. Even small sluffs can sweep you off your feet over cliffs. I used to chase hard and have had many close calls. I think it’s important to diversify your outdoor interests so that waiting for good windows becomes more bearable.


----------



## Ripitz

Very sad. Sounds like he was up there by himself when the avy forecast was high. Some accidents are unavoidable many are not.


----------



## JTG

Heuristic traps probably bite as many experienced skiers as people who don’t have a clue. Sometimes perceived knowledge and experience can be a bad thing. So, to add to the good summary above, never assume because you skied something safely before that it will be safe the next time you are there. Do your homework. As to sticking to low angle terrain, most people can’t judge a slope degree by eye, get an inclinometer. While not usually an issue in the east, be aware that sticking to low angle slopes provides no assurance on a snowpack with a Persistent Weak Layer (PWL), as remote triggers and sympathetic releases can happen, even from remote shallow slopes. PWLs are scary because there really is no effective mitigating strategy to avoid potential issues. Storm and wind slabs act more predictably, but the recent NH accident shows that even very experienced backcountry skiers can have trouble with those.


----------



## Ripitz

JTG said:


> Heuristic traps probably bite as many experienced skiers as people who don’t have a clue.


Definitely have seen more incidents with experienced adventurers lately. Like the recent one in the San Juans and this one. Ian was definitely not a rookie. The avalanche danger was reported low for Monday. 20” of snow overnight into Tuesday on top of a snowpack that was scoured by 150mph winds the week before quickly changed that. Having a partner, transceiver and shovel is a good idea but they are mostly useless when you are under 13ft of snow. In CO they were under 20! Very very sad


----------



## JTG

Shit, 8 caught, including 4 fatalities, in the Wilson Fork, UT today, not far from Gobblers Knob where 2 were caught (and survived) last Saturday.

More lessons I’m sure we can learn from this one, beyond reconsidering whether one should put themselves out there given the issues with PWL, all the avy activity last weekend, 30 inches of new snow in the past 48 hours, and the fact that other slopes in the Wilson Fork had remotely released avy activity yesterday.

8 people caught in a single slide is a huge number. Not sure if this was one or multiple groups, but anytime there are that many people out there, and especially with the current conditions, extra vigilance is necessary. Being aware of groups above and below you. Spacing on the skin track to only expose one skier at a time when crossing slopes, skiing one at a time safe zones before somebody else drops in.

Tragic to have losses, but if we don’t look for lessons to be learned it can only lead to more tragedy.


----------



## Ripitz

JTG said:


> Shit, 8 caught, including 4 fatalities, in the Wilson Fork, UT today,


That’s just wack


----------



## Ripitz

The avy forecast has been high and considerable in the Wasatch with Mill Creek being listed as particularly dangerous. In addition to all of the well known and abundant recent activity I can’t believe people still want to ski it that bad


----------



## Ripitz

Low angle remote trigger


----------



## Ripitz

*Curse word warning!*
Not sure why they were there
Or why they kept filming
F-bomb worthy


----------



## JTG

https://www.instagram.com/p/CK-SnENB...=1u4rxl4ub70tt

Here is where that came from. Messed up thing (see third video) is the guy couldn’t even fully dig his brother out before taking to the ‘gram. WTF?


----------



## Ripitz

JTG said:


> WTF?


I’m sorry but people are just asking for it. Too bad Search and Rescue teams have been unnecessarily exposed to hazardous and potentially deadly situations by blatant disregard of forecasts and reports. Do these people actually expect a different result?


----------



## Huezee

Pretty full parking lot at the Pass this weekend. Guessing it is only going to get worse.


----------



## Huezee

Incident report is out for the fatality last week on Mt. Washington. https://mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/avalanche-fatality-ammonoosuc-ravine/


----------



## sig

Huezee said:


> Pretty full parking lot at the Pass this weekend. Guessing it is only going to get worse.
> View attachment 8035


quite there sunday.


----------



## Ripitz

Huezee said:


> Pretty full parking lot at the Pass this weekend.


Never heard of a secret spot with a full parking lot


----------



## tirolski

Kinda like they put the No Parking signs in where folks park.


----------



## Huezee

Secret is a relative term. I just hope to avoid a situation like what happened with Blue Hole.


----------



## Ripitz

Huezee said:


> Incident report is out for the fatality last week on Mt. Washington. https://mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/avalanche-fatality-ammonoosuc-ravine/


Wow. Spooky. Amazing how small it was. Doesn’t take much. 8 guys, 2 hours digging plus extraction in that rugged country Those Search and Rescue teams are hardcore.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Ripitz said:


> *Curse word warning!*
> Not sure why they were there
> Or why they kept filming
> F-bomb worthy


Deer in the headlights.


----------



## Ripitz

If it’s not avalanches it’s bears








						Man mauled by bear while backcountry skiing in Southeast Alaska, Coast Guard says
					

The man was injured on his face and hands. It was not immediately clear what triggered the mauling about 10 miles northwest of Haines.




					www.adn.com


----------



## Harvey

Not sure I'd call this alpine touring, but it was fun as hell.




The Far East


----------



## ADKmike

Harvey said:


> Not sure I'd call this alpine touring, but it was fun as hell.
> 
> View attachment 8071


Looks good to me!

a shot from this past weekend it was nice out there...


----------



## gefiltephish

Fun local laps (and a Catskills trip) this week. So good! I'm really enjoying people sharing the 'backyard lines' they're getting after!


----------



## marcski

Anyone have an opinion of the Lynx vs. the Meidjo?


----------



## Stan_dupp

marcski said:


> Anyone have an opinion of the Lynx vs. the Meidjo?


I hope this. Is what your looking for 





						Meidjo vs. Lynx? -  		 		Backcountry Talk
					

Loved Dostie's review (http://www.earnyourturns.com/35260/review-22ds-lynx-2-pin-tele-binding/) of the Lynx - thank you! Given my time on the outlaw, that's what I expected - excellence.  Recognizing the potential pressures not to compare, can we get any direct pro and con Meidjo vs. Lynx from...



					www.backcountrytalk.com


----------



## Stan_dupp

Stan_dupp said:


> I hope this. Is what your looking for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meidjo vs. Lynx? - Backcountry Talk
> 
> 
> Loved Dostie's review (http://www.earnyourturns.com/35260/review-22ds-lynx-2-pin-tele-binding/) of the Lynx - thank you! Given my time on the outlaw, that's what I expected - excellence. Recognizing the potential pressures not to compare, can we get any direct pro and con Meidjo vs. Lynx from...
> 
> 
> 
> www.backcountrytalk.com


I am way to scared to tele


----------



## Ripitz

Stan_dupp said:


> I am way to scared to tele


It looks like with the Meidjo you can wuss out and lock the heel if need be.


----------



## Harvey

Stan_dupp said:


> I am way to scared to tele


Scared of what?


----------



## Ripitz

Eating granola?


----------



## Harvey

Scared of all the chicks?


----------



## Ripitz

with arm pit hair?


----------



## gorgonzola

BO?

I can 't compare the two and don't have enough tele experience/knowledge if I could, but did demo the meidjo 2(?) last season and it was a blast. I felt like a tele pro and like Riptz said you can ski it parallel or tele. Gonna stick with my 3 pins for a few more seasons to build some skilz but will likely build a nice tele touring setup in the next few years.

Maybe check and see if the Fey Bro's have any demo days coming? 

Side note the SummitCones ski'd really nice too!


----------



## tirolski

or E) All of the above?


----------



## Harvey

NYSnowflake said:


> So who else is planning to earn their turns this season and avoid the Covid crowds? Did you buy new gear? Or do you have AT or Tele gear already? What is your setup and where do you plan to ski?



So because Snowflake set this up to include AT and tele, I'll use this thread for any earned turns I get.

My two best from today's front page piece.




Brian


----------



## Huezee

Nice. I recently created a .kmz gps file utilizing the old trail map.


----------



## sig

Huezee said:


> Nice. I recently created a .kmz gps file utilizing the old trail map. View attachment 8106


Can you bring that up on the mountain while skiing? Does it give your location on the mountain?


----------



## Huezee

sig said:


> Can you bring that up on the mountain while skiing? Does it give your location on the mountain?


For sure. I uploaded the .kmz file to Gaia GPS on my phone. I would recommend familiarizing yourself with the limitations of cell phone based GPS before heading out there though. I carry a paper map and compass just in case.


----------



## snowsalot

Hi! I'm new to the forum. Just bought a tele setup with skins this past fall. Been working on learning to telemark at Gore and Whiteface this year. Used the skins for the 1st time at Thacher Park outside of Albany today and had a great time!. Got two 400 ft. vertical runs in, including some time on a snowmobile turns. Pretty much parallel turned most of the time lol. None of my friends have backcountry setups, so I'm looking for people who wouldn't mind me tagging along. Would love to try out Petersburg Pass! Skied there years ago with a skinny xc backcountry set up.


----------



## Ripitz

snowsalot said:


> I'm looking for people who wouldn't mind me tagging along. Would love to try out Petersburg Pass!


If I make it up there I’ll reach out


----------



## Ripitz

Huezee said:


> Nice. I recently created a .kmz gps file utilizing the old trail map. View attachment 8106


Are the trails downhill of the parking area skiable or are they all bushed in? Would you have to tour back up or can you run it out? I was wondering what the access is from below off of East Hollow Rd. More specifically is it possible to run road laps?


----------



## snowsalot

Ripitz said:


> If I make it up there I’ll reach out


Thanks!!


----------



## sig

Ripitz said:


> Are the trails downhill of the parking area skiable or are they all bushed in? Would you have to tour back up or can you run it out? I was wondering what the access is from below off of East Hollow Rd. More specifically is it possible to run road laps?


lots of good skiing below parking lot. did a car drop once to east hollow. entrance is tricky to find. you may want to scout that out in the summer


----------



## Ripitz

sig said:


> lots of good skiing below parking lot. did a car drop once to east hollow. entrance is tricky to find. you may want to scout that out in the summer


Is that public land or is it posted?


----------



## sig

Ripitz said:


> Is that public land or is it posted?


unsure. don't recall seeing any signs.


----------



## sig

snowsalot said:


> Used the skins for the 1st time at Thacher Park outside of Albany today and had a great time!. Got two 400 ft. vertical runs in, including some time on a snowmobile turns. Pretty much parallel turned most of the time lol.


i am headed to ski some stuff i have been scouting on beaver dam rd. curious what you found in the helderberg's


----------



## snowsalot

sig said:


> i am headed to ski some stuff i have been scouting on beaver dam rd. curious what you found in the helderberg's


I parked at the snowmobile cross over and skinned up to the old ski area south of the road. There are the 2 big wide gently sloped trails and then the steep section in the woods above that. Trees are more open on climbers right above the lean to.


----------



## sig

snowsalot said:


> I parked at the snowmobile cross over and skinned up to the old ski area south of the road. There are the 2 big wide gently sloped trails and then the steep section in the woods above that. Trees are now open on climbers right above the lean to.


steeper in there then i thought. has to be something better in helderberg's to ski then that.


----------



## rebel1916

Huezee said:


> Nice. I recently created a .kmz gps file utilizing the old trail map. View attachment 8106


That wouldn't open for me. Would you mind reposting it?


----------



## gorgonzola

*Thunderbolt, Mt Greylock MA 2.13. 21*

Set out at O Dark Thirty to hit the skin track just before 8




About 3 hrs up to the summit




Beautiful ski down before the masses




Another box checked off of David Goodman's Backcountry Skiing Adventures of Vermont & New York


----------



## Brownski

Very nice. If you put that in a TR format, I bet Harv would love to share it on FB


----------



## Ripitz

Way cool


----------



## moguljunkie

Earning turns in Pine Hill with ScottSki.


----------



## gefiltephish

Nice. I wasn't far from you guys... Saturday was so good, had to do it again Sunday!


----------



## tirolski

Dudes gave their pics and video to Colorado Avalanche center as information on an avalanche above Eisenhower tunnel last year. 
Colo. Avi. gave it to the DA. Judge allows DA to use as evidence in court case against the dudes. 
It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. 
My guess is lawyers will win. 








Judge: No rights violations against snowboarders who caused avalanche


Prosecutors will be allowed to use evidence provided to law enforcement by the Colorado Avalanche Information Center in the upcoming trial of Evan Hannibal and Tyler DeWitt, two snowboarders charged with reckless endangerment after triggering...




www.summitdaily.com


----------



## rebel1916

tirolski said:


> Dudes gave their pics and video to Colorado Avalanche center as information on an avalanche above Eisenhower tunnel last year.
> Colo. Avi. gave it to the DA. Judge allows DA to use as evidence in court case against the dudes.
> It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.
> My guess is lawyers will win.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Judge: No rights violations against snowboarders who caused avalanche
> 
> 
> Prosecutors will be allowed to use evidence provided to law enforcement by the Colorado Avalanche Information Center in the upcoming trial of Evan Hannibal and Tyler DeWitt, two snowboarders charged with reckless endangerment after triggering...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.summitdaily.com


The judges ruling is almost certainly correct. The DA is a moron.


----------



## Huezee

rebel1916 said:


> The judges ruling is almost certainly correct. The DA is a moron.


Agreed, no 4th Amendment violation. I wonder what the DA's original offer was?


----------



## Ripitz

$165,000 is nothing compared to the lives that could have been lost due to their negligence. I say make them pay


----------



## rebel1916

Huezee said:


> Agreed, no 4th Amendment violation. I wonder what the DA's original offer was?


I'm a pretty law and order kinda guy, but we have a problem of conflicting incentives here. The avy forecasters want people to be incentivized to do the right thing, in order to protect life and property. The DA wants to punish people for doing wrong. Both are societal goods, but in this case, I feel that it is more important to preserve the ability of the avalanche forecasters to gather data. I can tell you that in the unlikely event I was anywhere near a Colorado avalanche, I would not agree to an interview with CAIC.


----------



## JTG

Agreed, I think the District Attorney is overstepping with the charge, and I don’t like the precedent it sets. If it leads to less people reporting incidents that’s obviously a bad thing. Incidents need to be reported not only so that anyone caught in an avalanche can be rescued (or recovered), but reporting provides valuable info to keep others safe. Heck, the DA can’t even prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the snowboarders even caused the avalanche, or that they were negligent in not taking prudent measures given the avy risk. 

I do disagree in one respect, in that I think you have to report. Don’t know about you, but if I was near or involved with an avalanche and didn’t report it.....and someone ended up buried and dead....I wouldn’t be able to live with myself. 

While anything that limits access to public lands is a bad thing, a better solution to an incident like this might be backcountry users avoiding zones that can actually bury roads. Sometimes a line just isn’t worth the risk it presents, to yourself or others. There’s enough other terrain out there that you don’t need to create such a risk.


----------



## Ripitz

I think after you cleaned the shit out of your pants you would want to warn others of making the same mistake. Avalanche Pass in the ADKs has a slide zone that is off limits because of the risk it poses to others. My understanding is that there is legal consequences if it is skied. Search and Rescue teams in the Mt. Washington area are starting to charge people for rescues if it is proven that they are negligent. The professionals that work in these environments often rely on cooperation of the individuals involved but can make investigative conclusions without them.


----------



## rebel1916

Ripitz said:


> The professionals that work in these environments often rely on cooperation of the individuals involved but can make investigative conclusions without them.


Of course they can. It doesn't mean you should incriminate yourself. My union, and every law enforcement union I am aware of discourages officers from submitting to interviews from other agencies. There is rarely an upside. 



JTG said:


> I do disagree in one respect, in that I think you have to report.


There are differing levels of cooperation. The DA is encouraging from no to minimal cooperation. I think society is better served by encouraging maximal cooperation. 



JTG said:


> While anything that limits access to public lands is a bad thing, a better solution to an incident like this might be backcountry users avoiding zones that can actually bury roads. Sometimes a line just isn’t worth the risk it presents, to yourself or others. There’s enough other terrain out there that you don’t need to create such a risk.


100% agree


----------



## Harvey

Whose Woods Are These? – VT SKI + RIDE


If you don’t know whose backcountry you’re skiing in, you may be trespassing. On the third weekend of January, somewhere




vtskiandride.com


----------



## Ripitz

Just got back from a tour on the mountain behind my house. I’ve been skiing it for over 30 years. The land has changed hands. Reading this makes me want to reach out to the owners.


----------



## Harvey

I try to stay off of others land, even if it's just cutting a corner. 

Our land (new to us, in the last 5 years) has been hunted for generations I'm sure, and I'm not raising the issue now. When we move up there, I'll get more serious about trespassing.


----------



## Brownski

Am I the only one who thinks that firing “a few warning shots“ is outrageous? Trespassing is wrong and all but that seems like reckless Endangerment to me. That dude should not own firearms. He may not deserve jail but he needs a felony conviction on his record.


----------



## Ripitz

I don’t know the particulars of this incident but I think generally speaking it is an outrageous thing to do. Happened to me once when I was hunting mushrooms in the Shawangunks. I was deep in the bush on public land but the adjacent landowner didn’t want me wandering around. Thought I was gonna have a heart attack. My dog was freaked. Nothing like a crazy person with a shotgun to keep people away


----------



## Harvey

It happened to me.


----------



## gefiltephish

I'm adding miles to tours this weekend I can access from my house, out of respect for private property.

I've driven to scout a spot that I verified as public, to find it posted, and leave. Also have asked for permission when folks seemed approachable. Neighbors shooting across a gas pipeline in Leadville, unknowingly with me biking close-by was not cool.

RASTA immediately closed that area, communicated exactly what was going on, planned, and made a trail re-route. Presumably more signage, etc. Well done.


----------



## Ripitz

Speaking of which, pipelines and power lines make for good skiing from what I’ve heard. Never saw one that wasn’t posted. Lots of erosion from four wheelers and dirt bikes who use them on the regular. Sure it’s poaching but I don’t see the harm in a few ski tracks that will quickly melt away. Sticker bushes and down puffys make for little flying feathers


----------



## Harvey

gefiltephish said:


> I've driven to scout a spot that I verified as public, to find it posted, and leave.


What explains the disconnect? How do you verify land is public?


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> Sure it’s poaching but I don’t see the harm in a few ski tracks that will quickly melt away.


I guess one question is do you believe in private property. In America it is certainly a thing.

I'd bet with a powerline the power company doesn't own the land just has a lease. Kind of like many ski areas. Is the posting by the owner or lease holder?


----------



## Ripitz

I do believe in private property and the rights of owners. Definitely have trespassed over the years though. I think some of it has to do with intent. I live on a good stocked trout stream with a town park on the other side. We have people fish our banks all the time. Generally I approach people and ask how the fishing is first. Then I ask them if they know they are on private land. Their response and how they talk to me dictates whether they are welcome to stay or not. Being respectful goes a long way especially when you are in a place where you aren’t supposed to be


----------



## gefiltephish

Most counties have GIS 'parcel viewer' pages online. As with old roads, terrain traps, maps, things on the ground subject to change. Obviously, resources are limited versus flashy stuff like RASTA zones, Devils Path parking, etc. And yes, being respectful and mindful seems good policy. Honestly, its been a cool way to meet several neighbors.

If ya wanna get existential with it, do humans own the forest? More practically, I think nature and recreation are things worth managing for. With BC stuff around me being quiet, it's harder to share the pow pics, gauge either side's intentions, address or even be aware of any issues. More fun to be skiing anyway.  But important stuff to talk about imo.

Though parallel botany and MTB realms of mine, I get to deal with invasive plants and ninja trails that ultimately hurt the cause, despite good intentions. That said if I followed every rule my world of trails would be way tinier...


----------



## Stan_dupp

Harvey said:


> What explains the disconnect? How do you verify land is public?


On-x hunt app is a decent resource shows public vs private have to pay haven't used it much but better than nothing


----------



## Harvey

gefiltephish said:


> If ya wanna get existential with it, do humans own the forest?


I don't because I'm conflicted. The whole country was forest once. At least in the east.

Our land is my favorite possession. I figure as long as private property is a thing, I want some.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Stan_dupp said:


> On-x hunt app is a decent resource shows public vs private have to pay haven't used it much but better than nothing


I have that app and use it often. Well worth the 20 bucks/yr imo.


----------



## Stan_dupp

We all are


----------



## Stan_dupp

Campgottagopee said:


> I have that app and use it often. Well worth the 20 bucks/yr imo.


I haven't used it too much not a hunter but I appreciate it did the free trial and I will now giver a go


----------



## Ripitz

Like power lines, most railroads are no trespassing zones that are often skied. I bet most people don’t consider them off limits. Rail trails and town parks might be OK but if you are there after sundown it’s usually trespassing. Some private landowners only post for hunting and fishing but allow for travel. Conversely, not all public land is open for travel or free to use. Many parks, preserves and DEC lands require permits or are closed. The Gunks and the Hudson Highlands have had recent closures because of forest fire activity. My point is not all private land is a no and all public a go. I agree county parcel viewers are the go to way for a quick reveal of ownership. The next step would be to see what policies are in place. Or get some good snow camo and ski it at night.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> $165,000 is nothing compared to the lives that could have been lost due to their negligence. I say make them pay


Were they in a permanent closure? Was it clearly marked as so?

The snowboarders that ripped out tempter in telluride a few years back were in a notorious closed poach and actually did kill a hiker below. Those guys are probably going to get some serious time I imagine.


----------



## gorgonzola

Didnt read it all but reminds me of getting an arse full of salt shot as a kid!

some fun shit this weekend, today’s AT to .... PA gas pipeline

Saturday Pulpit Rock
Edit: Last 2 pics are Pulpit Rock ski’d on Epochs so technically should be in the bcXcd thread !


----------



## Low Angle Life

Thinking of checking out Pine Hill early this week if the weather cooperates Monday/Tuesday. Curious if I can rely on the hiking maps as a guide for skin tracks?


----------



## Stan_dupp

Low Angle Life said:


> Thinking of checking out Pine Hill early this week if the weather cooperates Monday/Tuesday. Curious if I can rely on the hiking maps as a guide for skin tracks?


----------



## Stan_dupp

All restaurants are closed in pine hill on Monday I heard


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

Peekamoose is open in Big Indian.


----------



## Huezee

raisingarizona said:


> Were they in a permanent closure? Was it clearly marked as so?
> 
> The snowboarders that ripped out tempter in telluride a few years back were in a notorious closed poach and actually did kill a hiker below. Those guys are probably going to get some serious time I imagine.


If you have driven I-70 back to Denver you'd see the reason... From my understanding, this slide occurred near the Loop Road by the entrance to the tunnel.


----------



## JTG

I don’t believe that is a permanently closed area, although it’s an area that carries a lot of risk for the loop below in the event of a big slide. Maybe it should be permanently closed? 

Either way, if people thought more about consequences below them, no matter how ‘unlikely’, maybe they’d think twice about it. While you can’t always know what’s going on below you, seems a lot of backcountry skiers don’t give that as much thought as we should.


----------



## raisingarizona

I'm pointing out the fact that if it's not a permanent closure they probably have a good stand in court with a decent lawyer. Being how dangerous those areas are above a major road you'd think it was a thing but I have no idea. I haven't skied around Loveland Pass/A-Basin for over 20 years now. I do believe that there are some areas above the highway there around Loveland ski area that are recognized as permanent closures and have been so for as long as I can remember. Having an area established as such and others not is another usable point for a good lawyer that it wasn't clear that they shouldn't have been there or I'd imagine so but I'm just a man of simple means and trail builder.

This is also why I mentioned the Telluride incident from 2019. https://the-journal.com/articles/128345

The big distinct difference here is the obvious that someone was killed from the snowboarders slide while in a very well known, permanent closure and notorious poach that has a very long history of being deadly.


----------



## tirolski

Here’s what the Avalanche folks have up about the Ike slide. Boarders were out after ski areas shut down due to vid last year.


CAIC


----------



## JTG

I’m with you RA, not a lawyer but I think the DA is overreaching with the charge, and there are plenty of reasonable grounds for a defense.

The fact that the DA is potentially putting the backcountry skiing public at risk (by discouraging reporting) by filing a trumped up charge makes it even worse.


----------



## Huezee

Defense is that CDOT and CAIC should have mitigated the risk for them.  Here's a video of the actual slide: 




Restitution figure may be high but that's what a restitution hearing is for.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Made it out to the Cathedral area on my splitboard today but not before having to replace a ladder strap that I noticed was broken when starting to strap in at the skin track... restaurants may be closed on Mondays but I found plenty of fare to suit my tastes. For anyone planning on getting up that direction tomorrow you're in for a good time. Lots of quality snow falling and good temps on the mountain, made for an interesting drive home on 28. Thank you to those of you who reached out with intel, hopefully karma will throw fresh turns your way.


----------



## raisingarizona

Huezee said:


> Defense is that CDOT and CAIC should have mitigated the risk for them.  Here's a video of the actual slide:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Restitution figure may be high but that's what a restitution hearing is for.


Your eye rolling comment is annoying and you are missing the point.

The CDOT should be making things as safe as possible for the people on the highway and keeping areas mitigated properly or clearly marked as closed. If you think the the general public can be responsible themselves and make good decisions when it’s ok to ski something or when it’s not you are definitely too trustworthy of them.

The main point was that they have a strong defense if it wasn’t marked as an off limits area, especially since there are areas marked as such.

take a lap bud.


----------



## Ripitz

Low Angle Life said:


> Made it out to the Cathedral area on my splitboard today but not before having to replace a ladder strap that I noticed was broken when starting to strap in at the skin track... restaurants may be closed on Mondays but I found plenty of fare to suit my tastes. For anyone planning on getting up that direction tomorrow you're in for a good time. Lots of quality snow falling and good temps on the mountain, made for an interesting drive home on 28. Thank you to those of you who reached out with intel, hopefully karma will throw fresh turns your way. View attachment 8288View attachment 8289View attachment 8290View attachment 8291


Nicely done. Most people don’t have the courage or will power to try it from the bottom.


----------



## Huezee

raisingarizona said:


> Your eye rolling comment is annoying and you are missing the point.
> 
> The CDOT should be making things as safe as possible for the people on the highway and keeping areas mitigated properly or clearly marked as closed. If you the the general public can be responsible themselves and make good decisions when it’s ok to ski something or when it’s not you are definitely too trustworthy of them.
> 
> The main point was that they have a strong defense if it wasn’t marked as an off limits area, especially since there are areas marked as such.
> 
> take a lap bud.


Personal attacks are uncalled for on this forum. I'm being completely civil and have a professional background in this field.


----------



## Ripitz

Huezee said:


> Defense is that CDOT and CAIC should have mitigated the risk for them.  Here's a video of the actual slide:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Restitution figure may be high but that's what a restitution hearing is for.


Why the F#K are people skiing above tunnels and roads in avy terrain? It should have been a permanently closed area to begin with. Are there not better places to ski? Everyone is at fault for this shitshow.


----------



## JTG

If I’m not mistaken, I think the eye rolling may have been toward the snowboarders in the video, with the second guy indicating “they (CDOT) could have mitigated it”. First guy indicating he had no thoughts that anything might hit the road doesn’t say much for him either. With these guys seeming failure to consider the possibilities and relying on CDOT to mitigate all avy risk....they are a defense attorney’s worst nightmare.

I’d imagine the defense attorney would rather focus on the fact that the area is not the subject of permanent closure, combined with the forecasted avalanche risk for the day and how it was factored into defendants decision making, throw in how the small initial storm slab released stepping down to deeper layers couldn’t reasonably have been anticipated.....and tie it up with the reasonable doubt that it can’t be proven that the boarders in question definitely released the deeper avalanche that impacted to avy control equipment and roadway.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Why the F#K are people skiing above tunnels and roads in avy terrain? Are there not better places to ski?


The shuttin of Colorado lift service mountain access down just before this happened might be an answer. 
Wouldn’t do it if ya paid me to ski that.


----------



## raisingarizona

Huezee said:


> Personal attacks are uncalled for on this forum. I'm being completely civil and have a professional background in this field.


That’s definitely not a personal attack.

you are being a bit dramatic.


----------



## raisingarizona

JTG said:


> If I’m not mistaken, I think the eye rolling may have been toward the snowboarders in the video, with the second guy indicating “they (CDOT) could have mitigated it”. First guy indicating he had no thoughts that anything might hit the road doesn’t say much for him either. With these guys seeming failure to consider the possibilities and relying on CDOT to mitigate all avy risk....they are a defense attorney’s worst nightmare.
> 
> I’d imagine the defense attorney would rather focus on the fact that the area is not the subject of permanent closure, combined with the forecasted avalanche risk for the day and how it was factored into defendants decision making, throw in how the small initial storm slab released stepping down to deeper layers couldn’t reasonably have been anticipated.....and tie it up with the reasonable doubt that it can’t be proven that the boarders in question definitely released the deeper avalanche that impacted to avy control equipment and roadway.


Ok, that’s fair but homes was eluding to I think it’s the cdot’s responsibility to make the area safe for irresponsible recreation. That’s not what I was getting at and felt was annoying.


----------



## JTG

raisingarizona said:


> Ok, that’s fair but homes was eluding to I think it’s the cdot’s responsibility to make the area safe for irresponsible recreation. That’s not what I was getting at and felt was annoying.


I honestly read it as him rolling his eyes at the info, in their own defense, that the two guys seemed to be offering up in the video.....rather than indicating the easy/obvious defense was that it was CDOT’s responsibility.


----------



## Huezee

JTG said:


> ...
> 
> I’d imagine the defense attorney would rather focus on the fact that the area is not the subject of permanent closure, combined with the forecasted avalanche risk for the day and how it was factored into defendants decision making, throw in how the small initial storm slab released stepping down to deeper layers couldn’t reasonably have been anticipated.....and tie it up with the reasonable doubt that it can’t be proven that the boarders in question definitely released the deeper avalanche that impacted to avy control equipment and roadway.


There's an argument there. However, I think the DA would likely come back and say that they consciously disregarded an unjustifiable risk as evidenced by the video where [snowboarder 1] says something like "I was worried that would happen!" 

A judge in NY would likely give this charge to the jury: [a] person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person: when he or she engages in conduct which creates a _substantial_ and _unjustifiable risk of serious physical injury to another person_, and when he or she i_s aware of and consciously disregards that risk_, and when that risk is of such nature and degree that disregard of it constitutes a _gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation_ (this is not legal advice, so don't take it as such).


----------



## Huezee

JTG said:


> I honestly read it as him rolling his eyes at the info, in their own defense, that the two guys seemed to be offering up in the video.....rather than indicating the easy/obvious defense was that it was CDOT’s responsibility.


This.


----------



## raisingarizona

Huezee said:


> This.


Ok. That’s definitely legit. My bad. No attack was meant or to be perceived as such. I’m feeling a bit sassy today.

in all honesty I haven’t watched the video. If they said a bunch of dumb, goofy stuff they will probably have a harder time getting out of this one.


----------



## Ripitz

Reasonable people don’t ski above tunnels


----------



## Huezee

raisingarizona said:


> Ok. That’s definitely legit. My bad. No attack was meant or to be perceived as such. I’m feeling a bit sassy today.
> 
> in all honesty I haven’t watched the video. If they said a bunch of dumb, goofy stuff they will probably have a harder time getting out of this one.


No worries. Simple misunderstanding. We are all feeling a bit frayed lately. Seeing that we reached 500,000 dead Americans has really gotten to me tonight.


----------



## JTG

Yeah, I missed the part where the guy said “I was afraid that would happen”. Shows they were aware of the risk? Was he referring to the small storm slab they triggered in the chute or the larger avalanche that stepped down?


----------



## JTG

Ripitz said:


> Reasonable people don’t ski above tunnels


Agreed. That was one of my first points on this incident.....people need to be more aware of what is below them when moving in avy terrain and make better choices.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Reasonable people don’t ski above tunnels


Ripz, they were boarders.


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> Ripz, they were boarders.


I think we’ve solved this mystery


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> Reasonable people don’t ski above tunnels


Ignorant ones might


----------



## sig

Harvey said:


> Hickory is owned by a gentlemen who lives in Texas, who grew up in Warrensburg.
> 
> He's considered a few different options, some to grow it and some to shrink it. He had even developed a plan, with permits and easements for snowmaking. (The edge of his property is only 1600' feet from the Hudson River and there is only one property owner between he and the water supply.)
> 
> There are two at least things that prevent HSC from reopening. The biggest one is the math. If Hickory .........It's a rocky hill that needs a ton of snow to cover the steeps. If it snows that much at that elevation there's likely better skiing at other nearby higher elevations. IMO skiers who've enjoyed great days on that hill should cherish those memories and respect the wishes of the guy who made it all possible.
> 
> I'll never forget my days there.


Bite your tongue. No place better on a deep powder day.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> Ignorant ones might


Seems like the Colorado Avalanche Center folks might have better things to do in March than testify.








Avalanche investigators testifying in criminal case could have "chilling effect," warns Colorado AG


State Attorney General says testimony of Colorado Avalanche Information Center boss Ethan Green in first-ever criminal case involving an avalanche could hinder reporting and damage the research function of the agency.




coloradosun.com


----------



## Ripitz

Does anyone know if this zone was closed to skiing? I’ve skied near the Mont Blanc Tunnel and everyone knows not to ski above it.


----------



## Ripitz

Olympic medalist turns to the Adirondack backcountry for next challenge — Times Union


LAKE PLACID — If hikers, snowshoers or cross-country skiers in the Adirondacks this winter encountered a skier going particularly fast, either uphill or down, it was probably Andrew Weibrecht.




apple.news


----------



## Huezee

Ripitz said:


> Olympic medalist turns to the Adirondack backcountry for next challenge — Times Union
> 
> 
> LAKE PLACID — If hikers, snowshoers or cross-country skiers in the Adirondacks this winter encountered a skier going particularly fast, either uphill or down, it was probably Andrew Weibrecht.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Yeah, I saw he was skiing some of the slides with Tommy B recently.


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## JohnF

Great day in the ADK!


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## Low Angle Life

Anyone have any tips for good late spring spots for touring? If we see mountains starting to close down in the coming weeks I may try to take advantage of whatever patches are left. Based on Sunday at Plattekill I was even thinking there might still be some hold over snow in the Cats. I'm open to suggestions from points further north, would love to get out into the whites or the daks but probably need to nail down a buddy for making either of those happen.


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## JohnF

Have heard there's good coverage in the high peaks.


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## Low Angle Life

JohnF said:


> Have heard there's good coverage in the high peaks.


Were your photos not from the general high peaks area? Forgive my ignorance of the Daks, I have very little knowledge of the skiing and riding having always passed it up for Vermont in prior years.


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## JohnF

Low Angle Life said:


> Were your photos not from the general high peaks area? Forgive my ignorance of the Daks, I have very little knowledge of the skiing and riding having always passed it up for Vermont in prior years.


No, this slide is in the central adk. 
South of where I was there was more snow due to lake effect.
I was surprised to hear about the snow depth in the high peaks too. But with the storms and consistently cold temperatures I guess it makes sense


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## Ripitz

Low Angle Life said:


> Anyone have any tips for good late spring spots for touring? If we see mountains starting to close down in the coming weeks I may try to take advantage of whatever patches are left. Based on Sunday at Plattekill I was even thinking there might still be some hold over snow in the Cats. I'm open to suggestions from points further north, would love to get out into the whites or the daks but probably need to nail down a buddy for making either of those happen.


Are you planning on split boarding or ski touring?


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## Low Angle Life

Ripitz said:


> Are you planning on split boarding or ski touring?


Snowboard touring? Is that a thing? The hope is really just to enjoy a couple more weeks of sun and snow under my feet. Prioritizing the the ride down but just happy to be outside moving. Does that make sense?


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## idratherbskiing

One of the lucky ones who is vaccinated, so I picked up a spring pass for killington with an uphill add on (free) thinking pico is done this weekend and I can be there in 45 mins for evening tours til the snow is gone.


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## Harvey

JohnF said:


> Great day in the ADK!





https://twitter.com/nyskiblog


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## JohnF

Low Angle, your best bet south of the Daks is ski areas that have closed for the season. Probably plenty of man made snow to ski.


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## JohnF

Harvey said:


> https://twitter.com/nyskiblog


I wish I had taken Monday off!


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## Harvey

I was posting that link because of the header image on our twitter account.


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## JohnF

Harvey said:


> I was posting that link because of the header image on our twitter account.


Missed it at first. Thats a good shot.


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## Harvey

JohnF said:


> Missed it at first. Thats a good shot.



I cropped it pretty tight.


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## JohnF

Harvey said:


> I cropped it pretty tight. There were some happy skiers below that bottom of that image.


Have you skied there? Might be fun to have a NY ski blog backcountry rendezvous there some spring.


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## Harvey

I took that pic.


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## Low Angle Life

If this zone is near my favorite island to gorge myself on blueberries then I may have to go take a sneak peak. Only spent time in that area in the summer months and would have never thought about skiing and riding out that way. Cryptic enough?


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## BRLKED

Just give it up guys, it is already over skied, aren't we a community? Nothing to say here!


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## moguljunkie

My son and I had Belleayre to ourselves today for our annual post-closing tour. Still plenty of snow for some warm-weather fun.


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## Capt_Planit

moguljunkie said:


> My son and I had Belleayre to ourselves today for our annual post-closing tour. Still plenty of snow for some warm-weather fun.
> View attachment 8999
> View attachment 9000
> View attachment 9001


Ermine Brook, ADK Feb. 4



Not really alpine, more approach...


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## Capt_Planit

ADKmike said:


> Looks good to me!
> 
> a shot from this past weekend it was nice out there...
> View attachment 8074






These are the answers to the questions posed up the thread, namely, ADK steeps with relatively direct approaches. Original post @ADKmike is (I think) Kilburn Slide from Feb. and lower is Willmington #1 or Cooper Kiln/Kill Slide from Mar. I did not ski the upper part of either. I'm sure they are spicy enough for any taste.


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## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Reasonable people don’t ski above tunnels


They couldn’t get enough jurors to show up so judge declares mistrial and postponed it till June, allegedly.








Trial Rescheduled in Colorado Criminal Court Case for 2020 Avalanche Near the I70 Eisenhower Tunnel - SnowBrains


Video of the avalanche that buried a service road and damaged CDOT avalanche mitigation equipment at the I70 Eisenhower Tunnel, CO. This video is being used as evidence in a criminal court case against Tyler DeWitt and Evan Hannibal, who triggered the slide while backcountry skiing a slope above...




snowbrains.com


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## tirolski

Boarders pled out to misdemeanor reckless endangerment.
20 hours community service each + $1250 court costs.








Snowboarders get 20 hours of community service in Summit County avalanche case


The men who started a March 2020 avalanche above Eisenhower/Johnson Memorial Tunnels pleaded guilty Monday to misdemeanor charges of reckless endangerment. “It would have been ridiculous to pass up 20 hours of community service and gamble with a financial loss for the rest of our lives. So it’s...




www.aspentimes.com


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