# ICE v Electric cost and emissions



## DomB

I thought this was interesting and worth sharing. I believe car transportation emissions are in the 15-25% range for the US's carbon footprint. This article discusses an MIT study suggesting that EV's are cheaper and lower in emissions over time versus ICEs when you look at total cost of ownership. 

I think it is fair use, but this is an NYTimes article. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/15/climate/electric-car-cost.html

****
Electric Cars Are Better for the Planet – and Often Your Budget, Too​By Veronica Penney Jan. 15, 2021
Electric vehicles are better for the climate than gas-powered cars, but many Americans are still reluctant to buy them. One reason: The larger upfront cost.
New data published Thursday shows that despite the higher sticker price, electric cars may actually save drivers money in the long-run.
To reach this conclusion, a team at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology calculated both the carbon dioxide emissions and full lifetime cost — including purchase price, maintenance and fuel — for nearly every new car model on the market.
*They found electric cars were easily more climate friendly than gas-burning ones. Over a lifetime, they were often cheaper, too.*




Average carbon dioxide emissions per mile
800 grams
Toyota Sequoia
Lexus GX
600
Diesel cars
Traditional gas-powered cars span a range of prices and emissions.
400
Hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles are about the same price as traditional cars, but cut emissions roughly in half.
Honda Civic
Fuel cell
HIGHER EMISSIONS
200
Nissan Leaf
Electric cars have the lowest cost and emissions over time.
HIGHER COST
0
$250
$300
$350
$400
$450
$500
$550
$600
$650
$700
$750
$800
$850
Average cost per month
Purchase price, maintenance, fuel
Source: carboncounter.com by the MIT Trancik Lab | Note: The chart shows data for new cars, SUVs and other models that retail for $55,000 or less. The most fuel efficient trim for each car is included and additional trim levels are shown for cars over $35,000 if they have a lower fuel economy rating than other trims shown (they are less efficient) by at least 4 miles per gallon.
Climate scientists say vehicle electrification is one of the best ways to reduce planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions. In the United States, the transportation sector is the largest source of emissions, most of which come from cars and trucks.
Jessika Trancik, an associate professor of energy studies at M.I.T. who led the research, said she hoped the data would “help people learn about how those upfront costs are spread over the lifetime of the car.”
For electric cars, lower maintenance costs and the lower costs of charging compared with gasoline prices tend to offset the higher upfront price over time. (Battery-electric engines have fewer moving parts that can break compared with gas-powered engines and they don’t require oil changes. Electric vehicles also use regenerative braking, which reduces wear and tear.)
The cars are greener over time, too, despite the more emissions-intensive battery manufacturing process. Dr. Trancik estimates that an electric vehicle’s production emissions would be offset in anywhere from six to 18 months, depending on how clean the energy grid is where the car is charging.

The new data showed hybrid cars, which run on a combination of fuel and battery power, and can sometimes be plugged in, had more mixed results for both emissions and costs. Some hybrids were cheaper and spewed less planet-warming carbon dioxide than regular cars, but others were in the same emissions and cost range as gas-only vehicles.
Traditional gas-burning cars were usually the least climate friendly option, though long-term costs and emissions spanned a wide range. Compact cars were usually cheaper and more efficient, while gas-powered SUVs and luxury sedans landed on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Dr. Trancik’s team released the data in an interactive online tool to help people quantify the true costs of their car-buying decisions — both for the planet and their budget. The new estimates update a study published in 2016 and add to a growing body of research underscoring the potential lifetime savings of electric cars.
*Comparing individual cars can be useful — and sometimes surprising.*




Toyota RAV4 XLE
Retail: $27,450
Average carbon dioxide
emissions per mile
Nissan Altima
Retail: $26,800
The hybrid is cheaper and has lower emissions over time, despite the higher price tag.
400 grams
Toyota RAV4 LE Hybrid
Retail: $28,500
The electric Tesla and gas- powered Nissan end up costing about the same over time.
HIGHER EMISSIONS
200
Tesla Model 3
Retail: $37,990
HIGHER COST
0
$300
$350
$400
$450
$500
$550
$600
Average cost per month
Purchase price, maintenance, fuel
Source: carboncounter.com by the M.I.T. Trancik Lab | Note: For their calculations, the M.I.T. researchers assumed each car would last 15 years and drive an average of 13,000 miles per year. The most closely comparable drivetrain and trim levels are shown in each vehicle pairing in this chart.
Take the Tesla Model 3, the most popular electric car in the United States. The M.I.T. team estimated the lifetime cost of the most basic model as comparable to a Nissan Altima that sells for $11,000 less upfront. (That’s even though Tesla’s federal tax incentive for electric vehicles has ended.)
Toyota’s Hybrid RAV4 S.U.V. also ends up cheaper in the long run than a similar traditional RAV4, a national bestseller, despite a higher retail price.
The charts above use nationwide average prices for gasoline and electricity to estimate lifetime costs, but the results may shift depending on where potential buyers live. (The interactive tool allows users to input their local rates.)

Hawaii, Alaska and parts of New England have some of the highest average electricity costs, while parts of the Midwest, West and South tend to have lower rates. Gas prices are lower along the Gulf Coast and higher in California. But an analysis from the Union of Concerned Scientists still found that charging a vehicle was more cost effective than filling up at the pump across 50 major American cities. “We saw potential savings everywhere,” said David Reichmuth, a senior engineer for the group’s Clean Transportation Program.
Still, the upfront cost of an electric vehicle continues to be a barrier for many would-be owners.
The federal government offers a tax credit for some new electric vehicle purchases, but that does nothing to reduce the initial purchase price and does not apply to used cars. That means it disproportionately benefits wealthier Americans. Some states, like California, offer additional incentives. President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. has pledged to offer rebates that help consumers swap inefficient, old cars for cleaner new ones, and to create 500,000 more electric vehicle charging stations, too.
Chris Gearhart, director of the Center for Integrated Mobility Sciences at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, said electric cars will become more price competitive in coming years as battery prices drop. At the same time, new technologies to reduce exhaust emissions are making traditional cars more expensive. “With that trajectory, you can imagine that even immediately at the purchase price level, certain smaller sedans could reach purchase price parity in the next couple of years,” Dr. Gearhart said.


----------



## Ripitz

Very cool thanks for posting this. The scale is tipping very quickly. My wife and I share a hybrid Mitsubishi Outlander. I’m a gardener by trade and share a gas pickup with my nephew who is my business partner. We have been anxiously waiting for the launch of the electric pickups and vans that will soon hit the market. We are headed toward a gas free business model and hope to be fully electric with grid tied solar within a few years. We recently ordered a new commercial grade electric stand on zero turn mower from Mean Green Mowers based in Ohio. They have similar tables to what you’ve shown where the cost of entry is high but it is more cost effective overtime. We’ve gone full electric with all of our small power equipment and would never go back to gas. It’s so much nicer to work in a clean and quiet environment and there is no maintenance to worry about never mind the money we save. The next few years will be a real game changer. Looking forward to a cleaner future!





__





Simple Savings Calculator - MEAN GREEN MOWERS







meangreenproducts.com


----------



## DomB

Awesome! For commercial purposes, I think it was Bollinger that has a good performing model to be produced. Lower range (250 mi) but looks like it will be very popular and a good combination of practical and fun. 
GM and Ford are saying that they will be putting out full size pickups that are electric in the next few years. Ford even posted a video of a prototype towing a train (yes a train). A bit gimicky but the torque on these things will be amazing. 
And of course, there is Rivian. I am not sure how good it will be for businesses as the bed is smaller and it is higher price point. They are private and valued at 26.5 bln (about the size of ford); backed by Amazon equity and an order for 100,000 amazon vans (key to Amazon's 0 emission pledge).
I have a Launch Edition R1s reservation in on the Rivian SUV. The specs (same as the truck) are ridiculous - 0-60 in 3 secs; between 9 and 14 inches clearance depending on driving speed/mode; 300 mi of range (not sure what that will mean in the cold); truck tows 10,000; SUV 7700; R1s offroad package has a built in air compressor and underbody armor : ). 10,000 upgrade for R1T to 400 mi range. 
Rivian.com

The EV tech is getting amazing. I am getting sucked in on youtube, but for example, Tesla's announced 16% increase efficiency in battery was largely ignored; however, that will come at a 50%(!) cheaper battery, which means price drops and increased profits, which means getting closer to a 25,000 quality EV (Tesla says 3 more years. We'll see). 

The EV future is bright.


----------



## DomB

Sorry - commercial solution is Lordstown Endurance.


----------



## Ripitz

Nice! You’ll be eating Corvettes on the way to the Home Depot


----------



## MarzNC

Having a very good time with my RAV4 Prime Plug-in Hybrid. When I'm sticking around home, most of the driving is done using EV. So might only need one tank of gas for 3-4 weeks just doing local errands. But I don't have to plan when doing a trip of 200-700 miles in a day. Unlike my friend who has a Tesla. Until his daughter went to boarding school in Lake Placid, he didn't do long distance driving much at all. Driving from LP to NC in early January when it was snowing was pretty stressful, partially because of having to figure out where to find the next Tesla charging station.

MPG is between 37-39 for the RAV4 Prime depending what type of roads. Range is around 450 miles on a full tank. Way better than the 2007 minivan for MPG and range.


----------



## Campgottagopee

EV vs. Gas: Which Cars Are Cheaper to Own?


We use data and simple math to attempt to answer this very complicated question, and in the process find both enlightenment and more questions.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## Tjf1967

Seems to me if you plan on buying a car and driving it into the ground the EV would be cheaper. I am converting over cause I am sick of sending NIMO and Exxon my money, Verizon is also on the list. You would never know when you call them you are the customer. Pricks


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Seems to me if you plan on buying a car and driving it into the ground the EV would be cheaper. I am converting over cause I am sick of sending NIMO and Exxon my money, Verizon is also on the list. You would never know when you call them you are the customer. Pricks



Yes, imo the only way to make sense of an electric vehicle is to own the thing until the cows come home. The depreciation on those things is astounding. That's why there's no lease on them.


----------



## jasonwx

Nothing depreciates like a Mercedes-Benz BMW or an Audi


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'd say EV are worse

I just bought a 2020 Mercedes GLC300 and it still brought darn good money when compared to what it was new.


----------



## Kingslug

And nothing sounds like a vette ...something about silently accelerating to 140 mph doesn't cut it...yet


----------



## Campgottagopee

Kingslug said:


> And nothing sounds like a vette ...something about silently accelerating to 140 mph doesn't cut it...yet



Truth

Sadly, soon we'll be saying, back when cars made sound


----------



## Kingslug

Its like electric motorcycles...very heavy and silent. nah.
I wouldn't mind a Rivian truck though.


----------



## jasonwx

The new Tesla has a 0-60 under 2 seconds
Most people will start to grey out at that acceleration.
my buddy’s camero is almost 700 hp at the wheels still can’t beat the Tesla

walk silently and carry a big stick


----------



## DomB

jasonwx said:


> The new Tesla has a 0-60 under 2 seconds
> Most people will start to grey out at that acceleration.
> my buddy’s camero is almost 700 hp at the wheels still can’t beat the Tesla
> 
> walk silently and carry a big stick


Great discussion. I am a big fan of the Toyota hybrids. I was fairly close to circling the Highlander Hybrid until I saw that a Rivian should be coming out (I think I put my deposit down in May '19!). 

For depreciation, I am the guy who drives a car forever. My current cars are a 2011 Honda CRV EXL (120,000 miles maybe?) that has never, ever had any work other than routine maintenance and tires. Also have a 2014 Subaru Impreza with 17,000 miles. We bought that when we left the city not knowing how much we would have to drive. But, because we live in the burbs, we like the optionality of a second car. Both bought new. 

I actually want to keep my CRV because it has a small lift (get 8.7 in clearance) but probably will keep the Subaru and trade the CRV into Rivian (they take trade ins, or say they will). 

One point about EVs - Tesla and at least Rivian will focus on over-the-air upgrades. That means, subject to battery degradation, the cars will improve over time. Two examples: a tesla battery software management upgrade INCREASE the range from 240-263 on the base model 3; Tesla pushed out a 2k over the air option that increased the the 0-60 time of the Long Range (not performance) 3 and Ys to an insane number (I want to say 4.4(?)). 

The legacy automakers don't seem to be able to do this in a useful way right now for ICEs.


----------



## jasonwx

My 2011 legacy has 105k
My 2014 legacy has 121k


----------



## Ripitz

I had an ‘83 Mercedes 300SD turbo diesel with 180k miles on it that I converted to run on veggie oil. We put studded snows on it and drove it to Montana in the middle of Winter on veg the whole way. The odometer stopped at 240k and I drove it for another three years. Went to the graveyard because of rot. Should have yanked the engine and tranny.


----------



## DomB

jasonwx said:


> My 2011 legacy has 105k
> My 2014 legacy has 121k


Jason - are you going to pull the trigger on the Y? If you haven't seen it, you should check out Munro Associates on Youtube. He is an engineer who tears down cars and suggests improvements. He was not a fan of the 3. He said that the Y was the best car Tesla built (and seems to have converted to a Tesla fan). Got his start at one of the big legacy automakers (GM?)


----------



## Face4Me

I've got a 2012 Honda Pilot that has 257,000 miles on it.

I've been reluctant to buy an EV ... For me, it's about the range ... Long drives are pretty common for me (see the mileage numbers above) ... Until they've got the range on an EV to about 500 miles without needing to recharge, I'll probably stay on the sidelines ... unless and until I have no choice!


----------



## DomB

Face4Me said:


> I've got a 2012 Honda Pilot that has 257,000 miles on it.
> 
> I've been reluctant to buy an EV ... For me, it's about the range ... Long drives are pretty common for me (see the mileage numbers above) ... Until they've got the range on an EV to about 500 miles without needing to recharge, I'll probably stay on the sidelines ... unless and until I have no choice!


I see Face in your name, and respect the mileage need. FWIW, abetterroutelanner tells me that from Long Island, 10% over speed limit with 300 lbs of weight, Gore would need one fast charge stop of about 15 minutes to get me there (242 miles) with 30% battery for a 300 mi + battery pack. I know that is not real world . . . .

NYS is building a bunch of fast chargers (1/2 range in about 20 minutes) with the Volkswagen settlement money. It actually looks like most will be built this year (one is going in Lake Placid). Google Evolveny and you can see the open, under construction, and planned locations. 

If Rivian makes a 400 range suv available close to launch, I could wait for that (the truck version with 400 mi has already been announced for Jan 2022).


----------



## jasonwx

DomB said:


> Jason - are you going to pull the trigger on the Y? If you haven't seen it, you should check out Munro Associates on Youtube. He is an engineer who tears down cars and suggests improvements. He was not a fan of the 3. He said that the Y was the best car Tesla built (and seems to have converted to a Tesla fan). Got his start at one of the big legacy automakers (GM?)


i really like the Y.. we pay cash for cars I'm very anti dept when it comes to cars.. so it's more of a fantasy..
I watch Munro vids..Interesting stuff


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> The new Tesla has a 0-60 under 2 seconds
> Most people will start to grey out at that acceleration.
> my buddy’s camero is almost 700 hp at the wheels still can’t beat the Tesla
> 
> walk silently and carry a big stick



I know but it's not the same. It's like kissing thru a screen door. I'll take the 700 HP all damn day.


----------



## Ripitz

Electric sleds are next


----------



## Campgottagopee

Kingslug said:


> Its like electric motorcycles...very heavy and silent. nah.
> I wouldn't mind a Rivian truck though.



I'm curious but not interested in a Rivian. I need to see how they hold up. I use a truck like a truck.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Electric sleds are next


Not for this cowboy. You can always haul gas in, but a 53 mile extension cord? Nah, shits not happening in my lifetime.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Not for this cowboy. You can always haul gas in, but a 53 mile extension cord? Nah, shits not happening in my lifetime.


You just find a break in the trees and unroll a flexible solar panel. Easy peasy


----------



## Ripitz

It’s gonna suck to be passed all the time without the blue fog


----------



## Campgottagopee

LMAO


----------



## Ripitz

Taiga Motors | 100% Electric Off-Road Vehicles
					

Electric-powered off-road vehicles with smart technology. This is the evolution of outdoor exploration



					taigamotors.ca


----------



## Kingslug

Electric snowmobile....hey I've run out of juice..anyone got a big extension cord...that could be interesting.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> It’s gonna suck to be passed all the time without the blue fog



Chicks dig the smell of two stroke


----------



## Kingslug




----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Chicks dig the smell of two stroke


----------



## Ripitz

Just douse yourself with this stuff before you walk into the bar


----------



## Campgottagopee

No need for that. I'm covered in it, I'm normally bringing up the rear.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> No need for that. I'm covered in it, I'm normally bringing up the rear.


You are making it to easy


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> You are making it to easy



I'm easy!


----------



## DomB

Not sure if you would need that chord. Do you go by Schroon Lake? 

Check out the charger map. There is one active there now, and should be many this year. I imagine it powers up a snowmobile in like 2 min if they can handle the charge:






NYPA Home


NYPA




www.nypa.gov


----------



## DomB

And here is the first evidence of a pre-production R1s Rivian SUV on the production line. 

Rivian handbuilt some early pre-production models; now they are pushing preproduction/testing models through their line in Illinois (former Mitsubishis factory I think); and then they will roll out the vehicles. 

The R1t (truck) is being delivered in June, and people have been seeing their production test vehicles on the road. This is the first picture I know of the SUV (being delivered in August) of the production test vehicle: 



https://twitter.com/RJScaringe?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Chicks dig the smell of two stroke


Folks rented a sled back in the 60s when they first were being made. Thing leaked gas and/or fumed mercilessly. Got skis for Christmas after that.


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> Not sure if you would need that chord.


The fast charger at Schroon is a good start but it looks more accessible for cars and trucks. For most people the range for an electric sled will be fine. Using a 110 home charger overnight will be sufficient. Eventually there will be a shift but you’ll have better luck finding Champagne on tap at a sled bar than a fast charger. I lived for a while in the sledneck capital of the world, Cooke City MT and found them to be both useful and annoying to the extreme. If going to an off grid cabin there will be pusher trailers for backup battery power. They will help with increased range, hauling gear and double to power cabin lights and electronic emergency systems. There will be people that will never quit oil but fairly soon their machines will be rolling museums, which could be cool too. I like going to see steam cars and trains but there’s also a reason we don’t burn Whale oil lamps anymore. Looking forward to a quieter backcountry and if I want some smoke I’ll roll a joint.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Cooke City MT


Buddy of mine takes a trip there every year. He say's it's wild, and obviously completely different riding than the trail riding we have here. I know one thing, high marking would not be for me.

I sooner see 4-strokes that electric sleds. I ride a 4-stroke and love it.

You can't run the pipes in NYS like they do in MT. MT allows it because they need all the motor they can get in that deep POW. Thus the pipes and turbos.


----------



## Kingslug

I stayed at Schroon last weekend. for the first time.found out..they have a lot of snowmobilers there. Cool area.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> He say's it's wild


It’s a great place if you are into avalanches and bar fights. You have to hold your own. The Sheriff is 3 hours away and the hospital is 4.5


----------



## tirolski

Mikey Moore made another movie recently, 
“Planet of the Humans”. 
Since climate change is such a hot topic, here’s a link. 
What do ya think?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Kingslug said:


> I stayed at Schroon last weekend



Where did you stay? We're looking at Schroon for Feb 5 6 7 @ Blue Ridge Motel, it's right on the snowmobile trail. After than we're in Speculator 8 9 10.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> It’s a great place if you are into avalanches and bar fights. You have to hold your own. The Sheriff is 3 hours away and the hospital is 4.5



Conceal carry or open carry


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Conceal carry or open carry


Both are OK except in the bar or the Post Office


----------



## Campgottagopee

Nice

My buddy who goes always tells me I can't go. He said if I did I'd never come home.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Nice
> 
> My buddy who goes always tells me I can't go. He said if I did I'd never come home.


An older friend sold his farm and moved to MT. He never came back.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> I sooner see 4-strokes that electric sleds. I ride a 4-stroke and love it.


I was in Cooke City when Yamaha was there doing their R&D on the 4-strokes. Their operation was impressive and well guarded. They would hammer a lot of miles with diverse terrain at altitude. I remember a lot of resistance to the idea then. When I first went to Yellowstone you could fly around on any snowmobile at anytime and it was extremely chaotic. They switched to BAT (best available technology) snowmobiles and guided or permit only and a lot of people were pissed. I thought it was for the better. It is less stressful on the animals and I think a better experience for the visitors too. There’s plenty of surrounding National Forest to go blow your pipes out. IMO traveling in the Park in the restored vintage Snow coaches is way more fun anyway. Electric snowmobiles would be a great addition for a place like that or any other natural place for that matter.


----------



## Kingslug

The scariest sound in the world when skiing avi danger back country..is snowmobiles...we tend to book out of there.


----------



## Harvey

I admit I haven't ready any of the six pages.

Electric sleds? Is that a thing? I googled it and all I found were toys. $1000 toys, but toys.


----------



## DomB

GM, a public company subject to a bunch of anti-fraud rules, publicly states it will not produce an ICE after 2035 - WSJ headline: 

GM to Phase Out Gas- and Diesel-Powered Vehicles by 2035​Auto giant’s plan to eliminate tailpipe emissions is part of a goal to be carbon neutral by 2040​




The 2022 GMC Hummer EV, an electric SUV, promises 1,000 horsepower via three electric motors.​PHOTO: GENERAL MOTORS/ASSOCIATED PRESS
By 
Mike Colias
Updated Jan. 28, 2021 4:02 pm ET


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> I admit I haven't ready any of the six pages.
> 
> Electric sleds? Is that a thing? I googled it and all I found were toys. $1000 toys, but toys.


Oh Harv, you don't know what your missing : )

This started with a random post about how EV's tend to be lower total cost of ownership over life vs. ICEs and has led to a bunch of fun discussion. 

And Harv, for when you replace your vehicle with a Model Y, there is a high speed charger in Schroon Lake now : )


----------



## Kingslug

Check out Lucid ..very cool cars...if they ever come out.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Kingslug said:


> The scariest sound in the world when skiing avi danger back country..is snowmobiles...we tend to book out of there.



That's why I ride trails and don't boondock


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Taiga Motors | 100% Electric Off-Road Vehicles
> 
> 
> Electric-powered off-road vehicles with smart technology. This is the evolution of outdoor exploration
> 
> 
> 
> taigamotors.ca



I finally read that. With a range of only 80ish miles they have a ways to go before they'll do any kind of volume. Most sleds can go at least 100 miles before needing fuel, and even then it can get sketchy hoping you make it to the next fuel stop. Maybe if everywhere there was a fule stop there was a charging station too? But man you'd get hammered waiting for the thing to charge. And how many can charge at once? There can be 20+ sleds lined up for fuel at one stop.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> There can be 20+ sleds lined up for fuel at one stop


Sounds like a bar


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Sounds like a bar


Ahhhh yes. Back in the days when you could go to a bar.


----------



## Campgottagopee

BTW
What in the hell were you doing in Cooke City? There's like 78 people that live there.


----------



## Ripitz

Skiing and fishing. One of the best places for both


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Skiing and fishing. One of the best places for both


Awesome man.
Good for you!


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I finally read that. With a range of only 80ish miles they have a ways to go before they'll do any kind of volume. Most sleds can go at least 100 miles before needing fuel, and even then it can get sketchy hoping you make it to the next fuel stop. Maybe if everywhere there was a fule stop there was a charging station too? But man you'd get hammered waiting for the thing to charge. And how many can charge at once? There can be 20+ sleds lined up for fuel at one stop.


What if there’s a ice/wind storm like last year when the wires went down up north? Might want to have a back-up generator, just sayin.


----------



## Ripitz

A reasonably sized grid tied Tesla battery wall will get you 2-3 days power. More if you put yourself on limp mode. After that it’s gas or Little House on the Prairie


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Little House on the Prairie


I'd prefer Bonanza or The Waltons


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> I'd prefer Bonanza or The Waltons


The Rifleman!
Chuck connors is bad ass


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> A reasonably sized grid tied Tesla battery wall will get you 2-3 days power. More if you put yourself on limp mode. After that it’s gas or Little House on the Prairie


Those battery packs are $10k -$12k - that kind of pushes EC costs off the chart.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> I'd prefer Bonanza or The Waltons


Bonanza


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> Those battery packs are $10k -$12k - that kind of pushes EC costs off the chart.


I just installed two enormous propane tanks for a client to power their new backup generators. They paid way more than that. The whole time I was digging I was thinking how dumb it was. At the same time a friend had panels and 2 batteries installed at his place. Since it’s grid tied he puts electricity back in or banks it in the battery to sell during peak times at a higher rate. The monthly payment with no $ out of pocket matched his previous electric bill and now he has 2-3 days backup.


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> I just installed two enormous propane tanks for a client to power their new backup generators. They paid way more than that. The whole time I was digging I was thinking how dumb it was. At the same time a friend had panels and 2 batteries installed at his place. Since it’s grid tied he puts electricity back in or banks it in the battery to sell during peak times at a higher rate. The monthly payment with no $ out of pocket matched his previous electric bill and now he has 2-3 days backup.


In NJ, solar residential capacity on an individual house (grid tied) is limited to roughly what you have previously used. They zero it out at the end of the year. If you produced slightly more electricity than you used, you are paid at the wholesale rate - which is very low.


----------



## DomB

I am looking forward to the R1s in case you can't tell. A testing vehicle rolled off the production line. Testing trucks have already come off the line, with about 15 different R1ts identified by sleuths.

When fully up, the US factory (Normal Illinois) will run four lines: two with skateboards (battery, motors, wheels); one for Amazon trucks; one that shifts between R1t's and R1s's. 

They say the R1ts start delivery in June and R1s in August.


----------



## jasonwx

Looks like a suburban


----------



## DomB

jasonwx said:


> Looks like a suburban


Maybe; but the efficiency (70 mpge), tail pipe emissions (0), and performance (0-60 3 s; 30+% breakover angle; ground clearance 9-14.4 inches; wading depth 3ft; motor on each wheel) are a different ball of wax.


----------



## jasonwx

DomB said:


> Maybe; but the efficiency (70 mpge), tail pipe emissions (0), and performance (0-60 3 s; 30+% breakover angle; ground clearance 9-14.4 inches; wading depth 3ft; motor on each wheel) are a different ball of wax.


very true
and GM makes a 3 ton ball of crap...
I find the whole EV thing very interesting..


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> Maybe; but the efficiency ... are a different ball of wax.


Wax is hydrocarbons, just sayin.


----------



## GoodTimes

Is 70 mpge on that boat worth the added end of lifetime battery waste? Doubt it!


----------



## DomB

GoodTimes said:


> Is 70 mpge on that boat worth the added end of lifetime battery waste? Doubt it!


Good times - your doubt as to battery 'waste' is unfounded. Rivian designed the batteries with second use life in mind. Once they are not sufficient for EVs, they have a planned second life for solar panels and other applications. 

If you don't like Rivian, then others are thinking about second life and beyond. The former no. 2 at Tesla left recently to start a company that independently takes old EV batteries for second use life (not sure precisely but presumably solar panels and storage applications that don't have the same needs as EVs). 

And, if you are talking about emissions associated with building an EV, that deficit versus and ICE is made up in 18000 miles of driving.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> if you are talking about emissions associated with building an EV, that deficit versus and ICE is made up in 18000 miles of driving.


Do they both last that long without replacing things?


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> Do they both last that long without replacing things?


T - not precisely sure of the question, but if you are asking about the life of the battery, it looks like currently Tesla, the leader has batteries in production in vehicles (on the road now) expected to last several hundred thousand miles. Looks like they are researching million mile batteries and some thing they will be incorporated into the cyber truck. At that point, the batteries will well outlast the cars (I am not even sure I will drive a million miles in my life). Then the question becomes do you move the battery to the next car. 

There is battery degradation over time, which means the charge gets you less range over time. I haven't spent too much time, but it looks like by 150-200,000 miles, degradation is around 10-15%, so if you had a range of 300 mi at purchase, you could have a range as low as 255 ten years down the road. 

Source: https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesl... around 10 to,down by different battery packs.

If, however, you are asking about replacing other things on an EV vs. an ICE, there really isn't much to replace. No oil changes, no transmission fluid. It appears to be mostly tires, brakes, and windshield wipers. Brakes last longer in an EV. 









EV vs ICE Maintenance - The First 100,000 miles


Maytag or EV serviceman? If you drive an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) and have a service file, take it out for comparison. If you own an ICE and don’t have a service file, you should start one, for you will be shocked with how much time and effort you really spend on your vehicle. You may...




insideevs.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tesla's dirty little secret: Its net profit doesn't come from selling cars


Tesla posted its first full year of net income in 2020 -- but not because of sales to its customers.




www.cnn.com


----------



## tirolski

Camp, would ya recommend a Subaru EV as they just said they’re coming in a couple years? Or just wait and see.


----------



## jasonwx

I wouldn't..Tesla has almost a 10 jump on most manufacturers.. most importantly they have the charging network. according to people i know the other networks aren't reliable or as fast..


----------



## tirolski

Each EV company has their own charging system? WTF. Whatever happened to the USB-type thingy being good for folks?


----------



## jasonwx

no
tesla has adapters to use the other systems. the others can't use tesla's


----------



## Harvey

Welp the 8 year battery warrantee is done on my wife' 2012 Prius. Be interesting to see how long they last. Current plan is to keep the car for another 3.5 years.

Mechanic says the ICE engines in the Prius last a long time because of the electric assist. I guess we will see. Never did any repairs yet.


----------



## jasonwx

Harvey said:


> Welp the 8 year battery warrantee is done on my wife' 2012 Prius. Be interesting to see how long they last. Current plan is to keep the car for another 3.5 years.
> 
> Mechanic says the ICE engines in the Prius last a long time because of the electric assist. I guess we will see. Never did any repairs yet.


 i have 2 friends that have the prius, both have close to 200k without any major repairs...and one is totally abused


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Camp, would ya recommend a Subaru EV as they just said they’re coming in a couple years? Or just wait and see.



I wouldn't recommend any EV to anyone I know. IMO they are way too expensive vs ICE. I do believe there will come a day when it does make sense because as competition becomes greater the prices will come down. As that article explains Tesla does NOT make money selling cars. The only reason they still exist is because of politics.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Good times - your doubt as to battery 'waste' is unfounded.



Currently the USA averages 17 million car sales/yr. Right now the EV sales are a pimple on a bulls as, so yes, right now it's not that big of a deal. When we flip to all EV it most def will become an issue. For those buying EV's to be "green", imo, is more of a justification of the (currently) higher price tag. They might be green up front, but they dirty at the end. There will be massive amounts of very toxic shit that will have to be disposed of.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Currently the USA averages 17 million car sales/yr. Right now the EV sales are a pimple on a bulls as, so yes, right now it's not that big of a deal. When we flip to all EV it most def will become an issue. For those buying EV's to be "green", imo, is more of a justification of the (currently) higher price tag. They might be green up front, but they dirty at the end. There will be massive amounts of very toxic shit that will have to be disposed of.


I agree with your fact, Camp, re sales. 

Whether you call it justification, a rationale, or logic, part of the EV conclusion is driven by green justification. Part of this is self interested. Probably for most of us, the planet can trend this way and be livable by the time we are all moved on. But I have kids, and nephews and nieces, and I don't want to hand them a planet degraded (environmentally) that I kind of saw happen under my lifetime and before. 

I do not, however, believe there will be a 'toxic' situation with spent auto EV batteries. As I mentioned before, many good minds have or are are working on valid, needed second life application, where a used battery will go into storage or solar. 

As to future waste, many people are going to go solar. They will need those batteries, which will perform fine for non auto storage. Not sure I will go through with it (100 commitment) but I just ordered a solar system for my house. 12 kw system and two powerwalls will give me 94 percent engergy independence. No batteries would get me 46%. It also would run my house for 6 days in event of a power outage and costs less than a generator. And, again, while green is a motivation for me, the system will pay for itself in ten years and generate several tens of thousands of 'profit' over the 25 year warranty period (batteries only have a 10 year period, but I included them in the profit number; they actual bring down the excess to me but I view em as (a) green generator; (b) key to my own energy independence. If I dont have the cash, NYS offers bridge loans and medium term loans to finance at 3.49%. People pay higher rates for shorter loans for many things, including cars, which are depreciating assets. Yes, solar will depreciate, but in the mean time, it will have more than paid by itself. Warrarnty is backable in my opinion because it is Tesla. 

*Back to your point*: Here is a small discussion of second life use of batteries; keep in mind that after this article, the No. 2 at Tesla started the Tesla of battery recycling: 

"Electric adventure vehicle manufacturer Rivian plans to re-purpose the used EV batteries in a solar micro-grid project in Puerto Rico.

The company will use the 135kWh batteries from its development vehicles to support the project. This move will supply power to many businesses in the area.

In case of power loss, this solar micro-grid will supply power to the residents of the area for core businesses. This system is also claimed to bring down high commercial energy costs by offsetting day-to-day electric bills."


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> I wouldn't recommend any EV to anyone I know. IMO they are way too expensive vs ICE. I do believe there will come a day when it does make sense because as competition becomes greater the prices will come down. As that article explains Tesla does NOT make money selling cars. The only reason they still exist is because of politics.


Camp - not everyone is Tesla. Volkswagen, of dieselgate scandal, has committed to EVs; Youtube a review of the ID.4, a crossover to compete with ICEs like CRV and RAV4. After the 7500 incentive, it is cheaper than those vehicles and performs better (other than perhaps topline RAV4 in 0-60) albeit base model only has 250 range. 

Yes, subsidies will go away, but likely not under this administration. Also, GM, which almost single-handedly killed EVs by owning the early tech and killing it, said they will go 0 tailpipe by 2035. GM was 7.7 MILLION vehicles sold in 2019. I believe all the passenger cars will be EV. It looks like they might do hydrogen for commercial fleets. 

Whle Tesla really impressess me, and will continue to be a leader, GM brings largers mfg scale, which will reduce prices. Tesla really has no incentive to offer cheaper cars (yes it loses money but its operating margin on the vehicles is higher than traditional automakers). Without more competition, Tesla will only go lower into the market at their pace (Musk himself has said they plan to release a 25k EV, but the true 35k Model 3 never really happened excluding rebates). More mfgs (which is really there now with GM and VG) will make cars that seek to compete with ICEs. 

Tesla really doesn't have a short term goal to compete with ICEs. Their goal has been to get a halo by coming out with high performing lux cars and working 'down' market to 3 and Y, which are still pretty fancy.


----------



## DomB

L


tirolski said:


> Each EV company has their own charging system? WTF. Whatever happened to the USB-type thingy being good for folks?


T, take a look at the history of the NY subway system. Robber barons in some cases privately owned separate lines and competed with each other. Eventually, they were consolidated. This often happens with expensive but promising systems. 

Also, as Jason noted, there are really two systems: Everyone else, and Tesla. Teslas can go to everyone, but not everyone can go to Tesla. Tesla said on last earnings call that they will open their system. It is a pretty nice competitive advantage. 

I own no individual stocks, it is just the fact of the matter that you will get the most accurate info from an earnings call (not nece saying it is accurate).


----------



## Brownski

I think it’s safe to say that the juries still out whether EVs can be good for the environment long term before another giant leap in technology. When a battery can be taken out of a car with 300k on it, put through some kind of process that makes it like new and put into another vehicle without degrading performance, then you will be getting somewhere. The idea that they will be repurposed forever is a little baffling. How many slowly degrading toxin leaking laundry room wall batteries do you think I need?


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> I think it’s safe to say that the juries still out whether EVs can be good for the environment long term before another giant leap in technology. When a battery can be taken out of a car with 300k on it, put through some kind of process that makes it like new and put into another vehicle without degrading performance, then you will be getting somewhere. The idea that they will be repurposed forever is a little baffling. How many slowly degrading toxin leaking laundry room wall batteries do you think I need?


72? : )


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> I think it’s safe to say that the juries still out whether EVs can be good for the environment long term before another giant leap in technology.


I might try spinnin an E-Bike first. Already have an outback that works well. Baby steps.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> I think it’s safe to say that the juries still out whether EVs can be good for the environment long term before another giant leap in technology. When a battery can be taken out of a car with 300k on it, put through some kind of process that makes it like new and put into another vehicle without degrading performance, then you will be getting somewhere. The idea that they will be repurposed forever is a little baffling. How many slowly degrading toxin leaking laundry room wall batteries do you think I need?


You're betting against technology. The market for used batteries be as big as the amount of solar and wind gebneration added to the grid. A "spent" battery still stores a lot of energy, just not with enough density to carry around. That's not an issue at all for staionary batteries. Most of those batteries will end up connected directly to the grid somewhere, not in your house.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

DomB said:


> Tesla really doesn't have a short term goal to compete with ICEs. Their goal has been to get a halo by coming out with high performing lux cars and working 'down' market to 3 and Y, which are still pretty fancy.


Elon Musk is a lunatic who wants to change the world. He doesn't need to build cars you can afford to do that. The Tesla strategy is to builds cars that everyone wants, and let someone else build copies that everyone can afford. That's really the fastest way to get broad acceptance of electric vehicles.

mm


----------



## Brownski

Ok- but 17 million a year? That was the number cited earlier for annual car sales. And I’m not betting for or against anything. When it works for me, I’m in.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Ok- but 17 million a year? That was the number cited earlier for annual car sales. And I’m not betting for or against anything. When it works for me, I’m in.



This, exactly, is my point. If people want to be the first through the wall, sobeit. I ain't that guy when it comes to EV's. I'm getting ready to haul my sled up to and around the Dacks, the last thing I need to worry about is where a charging station is. Someday?? Time will tell.


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> Ok- but 17 million a year? That was the number cited earlier for annual car sales. And I’m not betting for or against anything. When it works for me, I’m in.


EV's won't happen until they are somewhat rational choices for folks. Large reason I am going Rivian is green+performance+offroad+3d row seat+range. I have never purchased a luxury brand before, unless you consider JSkis luxury. I never thought I would, either. 

The price point is high, but I buy so few cars that for a solid 3 row, I am paying 15k more, and probably about what I would pay for a luxe brand. But I get the better-than-jeep offroad performance. I don't need it, but I spend significant amounts of time offroad on soft sand with up to a 3 mi roundtrip, so the capability is nice, maybe 10-20 days a year. 

Even putting aside the EV aspect, there isn't a 3d row SUV that is very capable offroad right now. I think Grand Cherokee or Wagoneer may happen, but who knows when.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> This, exactly, is my point. If people want to be the first through the wall, sobeit. I ain't that guy when it comes to EV's. I'm getting ready to haul my sled up to and around the Dacks, the last thing I need to worry about is where a charging station is. Someday?? Time will tell.


I hear ya Camp. I do think if you spent some time you would see there are pretty simple apps to show you the stations, etc.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Tesla really has no incentive to offer cheaper cars


Once the big boys come online and are no longer forced to buy regulatory credits from Tesla, they will have to become competitive in a highly competitive segment of the market. They're already showing they can't make money simply selling high end EV's and I don't see that changing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> But I get the better-than-jeep offroad performance


Maybe on paper, but it's yet to be proven for the long haul.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> This, exactly, is my point. If people want to be the first through the wall, sobeit. I ain't that guy when it comes to EV's. I'm getting ready to haul my sled up to and around the Dacks, the last thing I need to worry about is where a charging station is. Someday?? Time will tell.


At some point EVs will be easier to deal with than RICE cars, but skiers other snow country drivers will be the last to adopt them. just like the Dacks are the last place in NY where you need a landline phone. GM is saying all electric by 2035. That sounds plausible to me. 
FWIW I'm not an early adopter, but as soon as I can get an EV with stick shift, I'm in.

mm


----------



## Tjf1967

DomB said:


> EV's won't happen until they are somewhat rational choices for folks. Large reason I am going Rivian is green+performance+offroad+3d row seat+range. I have never purchased a luxury brand before, unless you consider JSkis luxury. I never thought I would, either.
> 
> The price point is high, but I buy so few cars that for a solid 3 row, I am paying 15k more, and probably about what I would pay for a luxe brand. But I get the better-than-jeep offroad performance. I don't need it, but I spend significant amounts of time offroad on soft sand with up to a 3 mi roundtrip, so the capability is nice, maybe 10-20 days a year.
> 
> Even putting aside the EV aspect, there isn't a 3d row SUV that is very capable offroad right now. I think Grand Cherokee or Wagoneer may happen, but who knows when.



For record I WAS a fan boy of rivian, now I am skeptical. They have delayed their release 4 consecutive years in a row.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Dacks are the last place in NY where you need a landline phone



Believe it or not there are still places here in CNY that have no cell sservice and need landlines. I get cell service at my house but I can not get internet no matter what provider I have talked with. I wouldn't get it even if I could. LOL


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Believe it or not there are still places here in CNY that have no cell sservice and need landlines. I get cell service at my house but I can not get internet no matter what provider I have talked with. I wouldn't get it even if I could. LOL


I know. Back in the early 90's. Harold Jerry was Chairman of the PSC, which regulates electric companies. His official residence was in Speculator, in a house that had no phone or electric service.

mm


----------



## Ripitz

The real cost of a gallon of gas is over $15. When you factor in the cost of war, energy subsidies, air/water pollution and increased health care the “price” we pay is much higher for ICE


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> The real cost of a gallon of gas is over $15. When you factor in the cost of war, energy subsidies, air/water pollution and increased health care the “price” we pay is much higher for ICE



?‍♂️


----------



## x10003q

GM will go all electric by 2035 until they don't. The market will determine what they do. I happen to think that by 2035 battery capacity and charging time will be on par with ICE. If that is the case, the odds are GM will be close to electric. As a skier, electric does not work for me. I would rather not add any more complications to go skiing.


----------



## Ripitz

As a skier you have more reason to move away from fossil fuels not less





Homepage - Protect Our Winters


POW helps passionate outdoor people protect the land they love by promoting non-partisan policies designed to protect our world.




protectourwinters.org


----------



## Milo Maltbie

As a skier, eventually it will be more complicated to fill your tank than to charge your EV. Technological change is impossible until it is inevitable. Switching to EVs is a smaller change than it was to give up horses for Model Ts.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> GM will go all electric by 2035 until they don't



Truer words have never been spoken


----------



## trackbiker

Hydrogen fuel cells appear to be the better option to ICE's. The problem is the hydrogen filling infrastructure. Everyone has an electric outlet at their house. So EV is the quickest alternative to ICE's. 
But for truck fleets, aviation, and other large fleets, hydrogen seems like the way to go. No large heavy batteries that hurt mileage and also take up more space than a fuel cell. There are already warehouses generating hydrogen from solar roof panels and running their fork truck fleets on hydrogen. Only a few minutes to fuel up. And if the fueling stations were readily available, range and charging time would not be a problem.
In fact one of the companies at the forefront of this technology is headquartered in Latham, NY and opening a new Innovation Center in Rochester.


----------



## tirolski

trackbiker said:


> Hydrogen fuel cells appear to be the better option to ICE's. The problem is the hydrogen filling infrastructure. Everyone has an electric outlet at their house. So EV is the quickest alternative to ICE's.
> But for truck fleets, aviation, and other large fleets, hydrogen seems like the way to go. No large heavy batteries that hurt mileage and also take up more space than a fuel cell. There are already warehouses generating hydrogen from solar roof panels and running their fork truck fleets on hydrogen. Only a few minutes to fuel up. And if the fueling stations were readily available, range and charging time would not be a problem.
> In fact one of the companies at the forefront of this technology is headquartered in Latham, NY and opening a new Innovation Center in Rochester.


In grad school at Oxford (Ole Miss) the chairman of the medchem dept at the Pharmacy school got his PhD at MIT from the father of Borohydrides. This was when folks were waiting in line for gas at home up north. He was preaching using hydrogen for vehicles back then. Ya can make hydrogen & oxygen by simply by splitting H2O with electricity.
Dude who got the Nobel prize for photosynthesis came to town around the same time to dedicate the brand new chemistry building. He was preaching using oil from plants as a cost effective, environmentally sound solution to our energy needs. 
And there’s always that dark horse, ethanol.


----------



## DomB

Testing R1T outside LA in the snow and mud: 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356022880102830082


----------



## tirolski

Since we’re discussing electricity, environment and cost effectiveness can someone explain what’s up with this?








Fish aren't biting on Seneca Lake: Will Greenidge's bitcoin mining expansion will make it worse?


A local fisherman is urging Torrey town officials to consider the declining state of Seneca Lake’s fish before they approve Greenidge Generation’s planned expansion of its Bitcoin mining data center. “The fishing’s...




fingerlakes1.com


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> As a skier you have more reason to move away from fossil fuels not less
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Homepage - Protect Our Winters
> 
> 
> POW helps passionate outdoor people protect the land they love by promoting non-partisan policies designed to protect our world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> protectourwinters.org


As a skier (with a family), I do not relish the idea of losing up to 40% of my (weak) range in my $50k plus vehicle due to low temps in the winter. I do not relish having to add 45 minutes to a 3.5 hour drive on Friday night/Sunday night hitting a supercharger. I also do not relish hoping that there might be an outside 120v plug available at my lodging (not buried by snow or non-existant) just to try and keep the battery warm at night and not lose any range. As I said, as a skier, electric does not work for me.


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> As I said, as a skier, electric does not work for me.


Got it


----------



## DomB

One reason I don't think Rivian is going away; I would bet you they prioritized Amazon production (to some degree) over truck and SUV orders during COVID. Of the four lines at their plant, one will be/is Amazon, 2 skateboards, and one trucks and SUVs (switching between the two). I am not a huge Amazon fan but good for them for backing clean last mile delivery. 









Amazon officially starts using Rivian electric van to make customer deliveries


Amazon has officially started using the first Rivian electric vans to make customer deliveries in Los Angeles. Rivian and Amazon...




electrek.co


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> them for backing clean last mile delivery


feel good clean


----------



## Ski4

Will be driving my Tesla to many ski areas next week, works for me, and I get to park up close no matter how late I get there. Winter range is only 15% less, not 40%. Can't wait for the Cybertruck, 500 mile range! 335 mile current range is more than enough for me, and btw over 22,000 miles last year, and only had to stop at superchargers 4 times, 20 minutes each time so I feel like I save a ton of time not going to gas stations when all is said and done.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ski4 said:


> I save a ton of time not going to gas stations when all is said and done


Where do yo buy your beer?


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Where do yo buy your beer?


Amazon?


----------



## Ski4

Campgottagopee said:


> Where do yo buy your beer?


My son picks it up with his pickup truck, he's a good kid, leaves no room in the fridge for my wife's kombucha.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ski4 said:


> kombucha


I had to look that up


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> I had to look that up


A nasty brew that gives u the shits


----------



## tirolski

Ski4 said:


> My son picks it up with his pickup truck, he's a good kid, leaves no room in the fridge for my wife's kombucha.


Learnin the ropes early.?


----------



## tirolski

Here’s a question for ICE vs EV to be addressed.
When hydrocarbons catch fire ya get CO2 and H2O as byproducts.
When EV batteries catch fire what do ya get?


----------



## Ripitz

Pretty day-glo rainbow colors


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> When EV batteries catch fire what do ya get?


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> Here’s a question for ICE vs EV to be addressed.
> When hydrocarbons catch fire ya get CO2 and H2O as byproducts.
> When EV batteries catch fire what do ya get?


In addition to that question, you should consider asking (1) the likelihood of that happening vs ICE on apples-to-apples basis; and (2) given the gravity and likelihood, how would we fair without EV adoption. 

I think weighing those three questions it is more reasonable to conclude EVs are still well worth it. 

To answer you question, while less frequent (even accounting for less EVs and ICE), really bad stuff comes out of EVs when they burn. 

Good link: https://airqualitynews.com/2020/10/...re known,about dealing with electric vehicles.

_Selected quote: _

*
Effective risk management*

When we are highlighting the risks of EV fires, it is important to position this against the backdrop of the current risks of air pollution.

Globally, air pollution is responsible for 7 million premature deaths every single year and if we fail to decarbonise the planet, then the impacts of climate change on the global population will be catastrophic.

To date, fatalities from electric vehicle fires are few and far between.

As stated by Professor Paul Christensen, like with most things there is always a risk, but we should not let this risk deter us from transitioning towards a fleet of electric vehicles, rather it should encourage us to accelerate our understanding so we can avoid and mitigate the risks in the best possible way.

‘As a civilisation, we are very good at managing risk,’ said Paul.

‘Yes, these risks are very real, but if we understand them, then we can manage them.

‘If we are going to decarbonise the planet and reach the targets set by the Prime Minister – which we absolutely should – then we are going to have to learn how to deal with EV fires.

‘In general terms, the fire services are not yet fully prepared, but they are working hard to understand the new risks. Fundamentally they are going to need a lot more help and funding from the government.

‘Various solutions have been suggested, for example, a water lance that floods the battery or a fire blanket to cover the vehicle. But I think the general consensus is that it’s not going to be one single product or solution, it’s going to have to be a system that involves both procedure and product.

‘The last thing I want to do is demonise lithium-ion batteries, they are amazing, we’ve seen no battery like them before and they are essential to the decarbonisation of the planet, but with the plans to ban the sale of petrol and diesel vehicles creeping closer and closer much more research needs to be done to ensure safety across the board.’


----------



## DomB

And the news I have been waiting for, apparently a global 25k Tesla being designed: 

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-25k-car-china-global-sales-confirmed/


----------



## DomB

I promise I will post about skiing again at some point. 

Rivian is at least cold testing (-19 F) :

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359296158330351620https://twitter.com/Rivian/status/1359296158330351620/photo/2
I also saw some outlets are reporting they will IPO this year. Given all their product launches and the demands of an IPO, I hope not.


----------



## Ripitz

You have a lot to be excited about. It’s definitely the most attractive of the bunch. If there is an IPO it will be interesting to see how it behaves. Tesla may be an anomaly


----------



## tirolski

_"if we fail to *decarbonise the planet*, then the impacts of climate change on the global population will be catastrophic"_...
Carbon is the building block of life on the planet. Plants love CO2. Decarbonize the planet? Good luck with that.

_‘As a civilisation, we are very good at managing risk,’ said Paul_.
Ask him bout the risk of funding Gain of Function virus research?
Does anybody sell insurance for that type of research?


----------



## DomB

Ripitz said:


> You have a lot to be excited about. It’s definitely the most attractive of the bunch. If there is an IPO it will be interesting to see how it behaves. Tesla may be an anomaly


The IPO issue is interesting for EV cos. My summary opinion is that for tech companies, it incentives the wrong behavior and subjects them to all sorts of swings, attacks, and potential missteps or even incentive to commit fraud. 

There was recently a company where it seems like there were allegations of Fraud (Badger/Nikola?) that went public via a SPAC (Special Acquisition Company), got a big investment with GM, and then a short seller issued a report claiming fraud. Nikola let GM out of a lot of the investment. Just shows that with all the EV hype, even the big ones can get snookered. 

My concerns with IPO are that the markets are notorious for pushing company's to short term performance. And Tesla has been subject to repeated short-bets (I am not attacking short sellers; I think they generally can have a valid role in a market). On the other hand, there are a bunch of people that love Tesla and buy their stock for no rationale reason, other than to support the company, which is probably not sustainable. DISCLAIMER: I own no individual stocks and it is unlikely I ever will.


----------



## DomB

Sorry, incentivizes the wrong behavior.


----------



## Ripitz

Loving the Sondors Metacycle. Finally something with speed and range at a digestible price









METACYCLE


Go beyond an eBike. Go beyond a motorcycle. Introducing METACYCLE. The new icon that changes the way you move.




sondorsx.com


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> DISCLAIMER: I own no individual stocks and it is unlikely I ever will.


So you are going to drive their truck but not buy their stock?
They are going for it.








Rivian, with Amazon and Ford already in its corner, plans huge stock IPO — Autoblog


Rivian Automotive Inc., the electric-vehicle startup backed by Amazon.com and Ford is looking to go public as soon as September at a valuation of about $50 billion and perhaps more, according to people familiar with the matter. The company’s timeline for an initial public offering and its...




apple.news


----------



## DomB

There are two parts to this, but most likely, no I won't buy the stock. If you told me I had to buy one stock, it might be Rivian, but I think that stock picking is for *me*, a fool's errand. If Rivian IPOs, I will indirectly own it through index investing, described below.

It is not because I don't believe in Rivian. It is because I don't believe in my ability to pick stock/issuer winners from losers. In fact, the data suggests professional stock pickers cannot do that over time. All of my investing is for retirement, with a smaller amount for kids' educations. I also like to keep my life simple where I can, and passive index investing does that. I basically get market return year in and out, minus about 0.05 - 0.10 % (I haven't done the math because fees are a bit different for each index fund). Google Bogleheads when you have down time on a rainy day and nothing else to do.



*1).* I have a so-called Boglehead investing philosophy. I have decided how much I want to try to invest each year, how much should go to stock mutual funds, and how much to bond mutual funds. This means I don't end up buying any stock, just mutual funds that take my money and buy stocks (you could do ETFs) that replicate the entire market.

As to stocks, I made two decisions: one all U.S. index fund, and one all-world (ex US) index fund. The funds try to replicate, more or less, total equity growth of public companies. It gets a little more complicated because I have been in the working world for almost 20 years, and issues like IRAs, 401ks, alphabet soup bla bla come into play, but it is fairly simple. I just make a few choices in life, work, save when I can, and invest to my targets if I can.

Even with an asset allocation, I spend about 30 minutes to two hours per a year thinking about investments. Most of that is gathering accounts and balances and seeing how far the percentages (domestic vs international vs bonds) are off my target. Then I set my investing in the future to help offset that, or makes sells and buys in accounts that do not have tax consequences (e.g. selling stock in a 401k and then buying a bond in the 401k if my bonds are too low vs the others). You can find neat rebalancing sheets on line, including I think at the bogleheads wiki page.

*2)* Even if I wanted to, I actually have some restrictions on trading for work that would exclude Rivian. I started working at a great place a few years ago with this restriction, but it does not impact my investments because they are all mutual funds. I do have ability to request an exception, but it doesn't really jive with my philosphy.

I admit my admiration for Rivian could lead me to seek an exception for some small amount that I would personally view as a 'fun' pick, but it really goes against my personal investment philosophy.


----------



## Ripitz

My understanding is that the market and a lot of funds, because of their diversity, are dependent on fossil fueled industries. I’d like to learn more about developing an “eco-friendly” investment portfolio. Until then I’ll keep my money under my mattress and invest in things that I can touch and feel.


----------



## DomB

Ripitz said:


> My understanding is that the market and a lot of funds, because of their diversity, are dependent on fossil fueled industries. I’d like to learn more about developing an “eco-friendly” investment portfolio. Until then I’ll keep my money under my mattress and invest in things that I can touch and feel.


Unfortunately by definition market/index funds are dependent on fossil fuels - they just buy the whole pie, and the pie right now is fossil fuel driven. They follow the economy, they don't lead. 

Eco funds are a tricky issue to me and one I am pretty uninformed on. My basic concern would be reading the fund documents close enough to understand if they are truly green. A lot of fund managers want to jump on the green investing bandwagon, but you have to be sure the manager is actually being green. For example, would a random Chrysler or Volkswagen bond in a manager's portfolio be green? VW is now committing to green, but they were the masters of the whole diesel gate scandal. It gets dicey.

The good news is that I think in the next few years, the SEC, the regulatory market watchdog, will focus on so-called green-washing, which in the long term should help investors like you that want to put your investment money behind your beliefs. Basically, they will help punish bad actors, so the good ones will thrive.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> The good news is that I think in the next few years, the SEC, the regulatory market watchdog, will focus on so-called green-washing, which in the long term should help investors like you that want to put your investment money behind your beliefs. Basically, they will help punish bad actors, so the good ones will thrive.


DomB, If ya’ve been keeping score, how’d the SEC do with the subprime loans/ credit default swaps debacle?


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> DomB, If ya’ve been keeping score, how’d the SEC do with the subprime loans/ credit default swaps debacle?


Not well. Their enforcement is by its very nature reactive.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Would hate to have an EV in Texas right now


----------



## Ski4

Campgottagopee said:


> Would hate to have an EV in Texas right now


Unless you also have solar panels.....the gas stations are not doing well down there.


----------



## Campgottagopee

This time of year I always have 20 gallons of gas on hand in my shop. 10 in the summer.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Would hate to have an EV in Texas right now


Where would you be going since most roads are closed? You can’t get gas. I’d love to have one. You can warm yourself without risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. You can use it as a power source for your household. You can charge with a battery wall or simple solar setup. And if fossil fuels are the answer why is the biggest producer outside of Alaska totally F’d?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Again, speaking for myself, I'll take my chances with gas cans vs anything else. I'm just using this as an example of why we aren't ready to go 100% EV's. Christ, they can't even get the grid back up for peoples homes. At least in case of an emergency your ICE will fire up and go.


----------



## Ripitz

EVs can be independent from the grid and also be a source of reliable power. They are silent too. After a beautiful and epic snow event, when there is a loss of power, I find it super annoying to listen to everyone’s ICE generator running so they can watch TV or keep their refrigerator running.


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> Where would you be going since most roads are closed? You can’t get gas. I’d love to have one. You can warm yourself without risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. You can use it as a power source for your household. You can charge with a battery wall or simple solar setup. And if fossil fuels are the answer why is the biggest producer outside of Alaska totally F’d?


Texas has plenty of fuel.
They are where they are because those in power did not want to follow Federal rules about power supply stability and reliability. Texas unhoooked their grid from the rest of the US so they do not have enough backup support. They failed to require winterization of their generators so many of their gas, coal , and nuclear plants have failed. They did not require heaters on their turbine wind generators, so some of the turbines are off also. 

The people who made these choices are morons in the pockets of the electric generator companies.


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> Texas has plenty of fuel.
> They are where they are because those in power did not want to follow Federal rules about power supply stability and reliability. Texas unhoooked their grid from the rest of the US so they do not have enough backup support. They failed to require winterization of their generators so many of their gas, coal , and nuclear plants have failed. They did not require heaters on their turbine wind generators, so some of the turbines are off also.
> 
> The people who made these choices are morons in the pockets of the electric generator companies.


Sounds to me like even more reason to be independent and self-reliant with a solar and battery storage system


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> EVs can be independent from the grid and also be a source of reliable power.
> They are silent too.


It is almost impossible for EVs to be independent of the grid unless you own a huge solar array with huge battery support.


Ripitz said:


> After a beautiful and epic snow event, when there is a loss of power, I find it super annoying to listen to everyone’s ICE generator running so they can watch TV or keep their refrigerator running.


For the $500 cost of a 4000 watt ice generator and $20 of gasoline families can survive for a week or longer without power. One Tesla power wall cost $8000. I think you will have to live with ice generators for a while longer.


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> Sounds to me like even more reason to be independent and self-reliant with a solar and battery storage system


Texas is incredibly stupid about solar, also.
As for self reliance, solar costs a small fortune to install and if you want battery backup you need to spend even more money for batteries (tesla power wall unit $8000) in your home. Most people with solar use the grid as a battery, so when the grid is down so is your house.


----------



## Tjf1967

x10003q said:


> Texas has plenty of fuel.
> They are where they are because those in power did not want to follow Federal rules about power supply stability and reliability. Texas unhoooked their grid from the rest of the US so they do not have enough backup support. They failed to require winterization of their generators so many of their gas, coal , and nuclear plants have failed. They did not require heaters on their turbine wind generators, so some of the turbines are off also.
> 
> The people who made these choices are morons in the pockets of the electric generator companies.


Texas is going to be fine. Was NJ morons after Hurricane Sandy? Shit happens


----------



## Brownski

Tjf1967 said:


> Texas is going to be fine. Was NJ morons after Hurricane Sandy? Shit happens


Good point. We were a complete mess around here


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Good point. We were a complete mess around here



Right

I guess at the end of the day all we can do is be as prepared as we think we can be. I remember the big ice storm up north, was it 98?? Dunno, but luckily for my sis and b-i-l they heated with wood, had beefers, and a generator. I think they were without power for over a week?? I still have a T-shirt from by b-i-l's construction company that says, "real men don't take sponge baths" --- lol


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Right
> 
> I guess at the end of the day all we can do is be as prepared as we think we can be. I remember the big ice storm up north, was it 98?? Dunno, but luckily for my sis and b-i-l they heated with wood, had beefers, and a generator. I think they were without power for over a week?? I still have a T-shirt from by b-i-l's construction company that says, "real men don't take sponge baths" --- lol


I think my dad still has OT money in the bank from that one.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I think my dad still has OT money in the bank from that one.


right on!!!! LOL

Was it 98 or earlier than that


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> right on!!!! LOL
> 
> Was it 98 or earlier than that


I think it was 98 possibly 99


----------



## x10003q

Tjf1967 said:


> Texas is going to be fine. Was NJ morons after Hurricane Sandy? Shit happens


and shit can be prevented easily. This is nothing like Sandy. This is not about downed wires.

This has to do with the generation (natural gas, coal, nuke plants, and wind turbines) being shut down due to cold and not having extra capacity because they are not connected to the rest of the US. These cold weather fixes are standard across the rest of the US. How come NM, OK, Ark, La, Miss are not having the same issues? El Paso Electric (in El Paso, Tx) has had zero disruptions because they are not part of the Texas ISO. These cold weather issues happened on a smaller scale in Texas in 2011 and 2014 and they did nothing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> These cold weather issues happened on a smaller scale in Texas in 2011 and 2014 and they did nothing.



OUCH!! I guess they should've taken notice. You're saying this was easily preventable by either connecting into the rest of the US grid, or the heating of their generators, etc?


----------



## Tjf1967

x10003q said:


> and shit can be prevented easily. This is nothing like Sandy. This is not about downed wires.
> 
> This has to do with the generation (natural gas, coal, nuke plants, and wind turbines) being shut down due to cold and not having extra capacity because they are not connected to the rest of the US. These cold weather fixes are standard across the rest of the US. How come NM, OK, Ark, La, Miss are not having the same issues? El Paso Electric (in El Paso, Tx) has had zero disruptions because they are not part of the Texas ISO. These cold weather issues happened on a smaller scale in Texas in 2011 and 2014 and they did nothing.


They decided the costs outweighed the risk? Easily prevented? So your saying they could not have beefed up the wires to withstand Sandy. They could have. They chose not it. 
I do believe LA and Miss had the same problem.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> OUCH!! I guess they should've taken notice. You're saying this was easily preventable by either connecting into the rest of the US grid, or the heating of their generators, etc?


Yes. The major issue in Texas is not enough power. The smaller issue is downed wires. This is why they keep rotating the power on and off, they do not have enough power. In this case, if they were connected to the US grid, people who are have been subject to the rolling blackouts would be fully on already.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Texas has plenty of fuel.
> They are where they are because those in power did not want to follow Federal rules about power supply stability and reliability.
> 
> The people who made these choices are morons in the pockets of the electric generator companies.


Is this a sequel to Enron, another Texas sh!tstorm?


----------



## x10003q

Tjf1967 said:


> They decided the costs outweighed the risk? Easily prevented? So your saying they could not have beefed up the wires to withstand Sandy. They could have. They chose not it.
> I do believe LA and Miss had the same problem.


You cannot beef up wires, you can only bury them. 
Texas does not have enough power generation right now - that means they still have rolling blackouts. La and Miss have plenty of power supply and do not have rolling blackouts, they have downed wire issues only. Texas does not have enough power and, on a smaller scale, downed wires.


----------



## tirolski

Tjf1967 said:


> I think it was 98 possibly 99


The ice storm in St. Lawrence county created a lot of habit for the “wild” animals due to all the limbs/trees coming down. Was harder on humans though.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Is it possible that Texas' desire to be separated from the rest of the grid fucked them over in this case?


What’s energy hubris? I understand the fucking over thing.


----------



## Harvey

I just made it up. I was wondering if, as the capitol of fossil fuels, they felt all powerful? ?


----------



## tirolski

A few folks can have all the “power” they want to, if they don’t distribute "power to the people” who need some ya get can get a mess.


----------



## x10003q

Here is some history about Texas power generation.

"The Texas Interconnect System — which for a long time was actually operated by two entities, one for northern Texas and one for southern Texas — had another priority: *staying out of the reach of federal regulators.* In 1935, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Federal Power Act, which charged the Federal Power Commission with overseeing interstate electricity sales. By not crossing state lines, Texas utilities avoided being subjected to federal rules."

"Even today, ERCOT is also not completely isolated from other grids — as was evident when the state imported some power from Mexico during the rolling blackouts of *2011*. ERCOT has three ties to Mexico and — as an outcome of the "Midnight Connection" battle — it also has two ties to the eastern U.S. grid, though they do not trigger federal regulation for ERCOT. All can move power commercially as well as be used in emergencies, according to ERCOT spokeswoman Dottie Roark."
Not enough connections to prevent continuing rolling blackouts.









Why does Texas have its own power grid?


Basically, Texas has its own grid to avoid dealing with — you guessed it — the feds.




www.chron.com


----------



## Harvey

Why is Texas the only one to be separate? I'd think some other states would dig some *staying out of the reach of federal regulators.*


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Yes. The major issue in Texas is not enough power. The smaller issue is downed wires. This is why they keep rotating the power on and off, they do not have enough power. In this case, if they were connected to the US grid, people who are have been subject to the rolling blackouts would be fully on already.



Why would they do such a thing? Does not connecting to the rest of the grid save them massive amounts of money? Or is it a Texas pride kinda thing. I lived there, so it wouldn't surprise me. I did like it there but the peeps there do move a little slower than we east coast folks do.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Here is some history about Texas power generation.
> 
> "The Texas Interconnect System — which for a long time was actually operated by two entities, one for northern Texas and one for southern Texas — had another priority: *staying out of the reach of federal regulators.* In 1935, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Federal Power Act, which charged the Federal Power Commission with overseeing interstate electricity sales. By not crossing state lines, Texas utilities avoided being subjected to federal rules."
> 
> "Even today, ERCOT is also not completely isolated from other grids — as was evident when the state imported some power from Mexico during the rolling blackouts of *2011*. ERCOT has three ties to Mexico and — as an outcome of the "Midnight Connection" battle — it also has two ties to the eastern U.S. grid, though they do not trigger federal regulation for ERCOT. All can move power commercially as well as be used in emergencies, according to ERCOT spokeswoman Dottie Roark."
> Not enough connections to prevent continuing rolling blackouts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Texas have its own power grid?
> 
> 
> Basically, Texas has its own grid to avoid dealing with — you guessed it — the feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chron.com



LOL --- never mind, you just answered my question


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> I did like it there but the peeps there do move a little slower than we east coast folks do.


My experience is that this describes 90% of the rest of the country


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> I did like it there but the peeps there do move a little slower than we east coast folks do.


Wait what? People somewhere are is slower than in central NY? 

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Wait what? People somewhere are is slower than in central NY?
> 
> mm



LOL

Did you have a good nap old timer?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> My experience is that this describes 90% of the rest of the country



True
It was crazy. Not many people set out to be in the auto industry, especially retail. Word got around in Austin (no secrets in the auto dealer circles) that some yankee from NY was in town. I had this guy after me like you can't believe. Never took his offer as he was a total tool and I loved the dealer I was working for. He would talk me golfing and to "gentlemen's" clubs for lunch. Texas was truly a hoot.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> Why is Texas the only one to be separate?


Texas is the only state latge enough and with enough energy production to go it alone. It also has a long history of regulting oil and gas production through the Texas Railroad Commission, but was one of the last states to have retail utility regulation. It's just a different history and approach to regulation than other states.
To be fair, I don't think anyone at ERCOT would raise their hand and say "let's plan for a winter storm to cver the whole state of Texas." I don't think we even planned for that in NY.

mm


----------



## Tjf1967

x10003q said:


> You cannot beef up wires, you can only bury them.
> Texas does not have enough power generation right now - that means they still have rolling blackouts. La and Miss have plenty of power supply and do not have rolling blackouts, they have downed wire issues only. Texas does not have enough power and, on a smaller scale, downed


I understand all that. You can beef wires to and when the water table is high it's too expensive to bury. Texas did it their way. Is any other states way better? 
Who says? Results show ever state has problems with things like this. Your political tone calling them morons is more what I object to. Why do we care of they are connected to the grid?


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Wait what? People somewhere are slower than in central NY?
> 
> mm


mm, I’m slower now than when was at Ole Miss. They’re getting some snow now though, that’ll slow those dang rebels down.


----------



## x10003q

Tjf1967 said:


> I understand all that. You can beef wires to and when the water table is high it's too expensive to bury. Texas did it their way. Is any other states way better?
> Who says? Results show ever state has problems with things like this. Your political tone calling them morons is more what I object to. Why do we care of they are connected to the grid?


Because now the Federal government will bail them out and the rest of us get to pay for their "independence" and slightly lower price for energy. This was preventable if they followed Federal regulations. There are millions of people without water, so more money from the Federal government to fix that too.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Here is some history about Texas power generation.
> 
> "The Texas Interconnect System — which for a long time was actually operated by two entities, one for northern Texas and one for southern Texas — had another priority: *staying out of the reach of federal regulators.* In 1935, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Federal Power Act, which charged the Federal Power Commission with overseeing interstate electricity sales. By not crossing state lines, Texas utilities avoided being subjected to federal rules."
> 
> "Even today, ERCOT is also not completely isolated from other grids — as was evident when the state imported some power from Mexico during the rolling blackouts of *2011*. ERCOT has three ties to Mexico and — as an outcome of the "Midnight Connection" battle — it also has two ties to the eastern U.S. grid, though they do not trigger federal regulation for ERCOT. All can move power commercially as well as be used in emergencies, according to ERCOT spokeswoman Dottie Roark."
> Not enough connections to prevent continuing rolling blackouts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Texas have its own power grid?
> 
> 
> Basically, Texas has its own grid to avoid dealing with — you guessed it — the feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chron.com


X, please explain this to the Gov of TX as he's on the news demanding answers why this has happened....lol


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Because now the Federal government will bail them out and the rest of us get to pay for their "independence" and slightly lower price for energy. This was preventable if they followed Federal regulations. There are millions of people without water, so more money from the Federal government to fix that too.


My wife and I were just talking about this. It's def not right but we have to do it. It actually pisses me off!!


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> X, please explain this to the Gov of TX as he's on the news demanding answers why this has happened....lol


He knows exactly what happened. Also, the Tx residential average is about .11/kwh. I pay .13 in NJ. I wonder who is making all the money from the "cheap" rates? You can get as low as .06 in Texas, but you need to have a floating rate. Those people are screwed.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> He knows exactly what happened. Also, the Tx residential average is about .11/kwh. I pay .13 in NJ. I wonder who is making all the money from the "cheap" rates? You can get as low as .06 in Texas, but you need to have a floating rate. Those people are screwed.


I know he does. It made me smh when he was demanding answers.
If you don't mind me asking, are you in the energy biz? Or do you just know things.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> I know he does. It made me smh when he was demanding answers.
> If you don't mind me asking, are you in the energy biz? Or do you just know things.


I was involved in supplying bulk electricity to industrial users in the 1990s. It was a different planet then.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

x10003q said:


> He knows exactly what happened.


IME experience no one knows what happened until they work through the data and figure it out. That can takes months. The politicals will make the people who know stuff miserable until order is restored, but that's not the same as knowing what happened.

mm


----------



## x10003q

Milo Maltbie said:


> IME experience no one knows what happened until they work through the data and figure it out. That can takes months. The politicals will make the people who know stuff miserable until order is restored, but that's not the same as knowing what happened.
> 
> mm


Nope. Gov Abbot had the reason. It is a lie, of course.
"“This shows how the Green New Deal would be a deadly deal for the United States of America,” he said. “Our wind and our solar got shut down, and they were collectively more than 10 percent of our power grid, and that thrust Texas into a situation where it was lacking power on a statewide basis.”








Editorial: Gov. Abbott’s 'wind turbine' excuse is full of hot air, while Texans are dying


The electric grid needs tougher oversight, but so does the whole industry, the Editorial...




www.houstonchronicle.com





He knows the real reason is lack of winterization on thermal generation and wind generation. This happened on a smaller scale in 2011 and 2014.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

The fact that Abbott went with political bulls hit right away just means he doesn’t care what happened. It doesn’t mean he knows anything. It also proves my point that he will torment the people who actually know something for as long as it entertains the voters. 


mm


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> I was involved in supplying bulk electricity to industrial users in the 1990s. It was a different planet then.


Tenthousandthreeq, Same planet, different human life B4 the inter-web thingy.


----------



## DomB

Guys - sorry I was away skiing at Belle, which was quite fun : )

As some have pointed out, folks in Texas with solar and storage (i.e. powerall or competitor) would have had power for at least periods of time. I

If you have solar but no battery storage, it looks like most electrical / town codes require the system not generate to avoid damage to the power grid. 

Obviously we are all thinking of the folks in Texas, and hope our government and we all can help out. 

Best - D


----------



## x10003q

Texas Electric Bills Were $28 Billion Higher Under Deregulation​







WSJ News Exclusive | Texas Electric Bills Were $28 Billion Higher Under Deregulation


Texas’s deregulated electricity market left millions in the dark last week. For the past 20 years, its consumers have paid more for their electricity than state residents who are served by traditional utilities, a WSJ investigation found.




www.wsj.com




This is why total deregulation of the electric market, like Texas did, is a failure.


----------



## Ripitz

Mining for electric car batteries 'hundreds of times' better than petrol car emission cycles


A new study did a deep dive into the emissions from the full life cycles, from petroleum extraction to mining,...




electrek.co


----------



## Kingslug

The First Electric Car: A Brief History of Electric Vehicles | Enel X Way


It turns out electric cars have been around longer than you think. Learn more about the first electric car and how it shaped the EV industry.




evcharging.enelx.com




If we had kept this up..things would be a tad bit different now.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Scroll down to Solargen Electric 
This was going on here in our CNY town in the 70's









AMC Concord - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Campgottagopee

My first electric car will have to sound cool


----------



## Kingslug

yup..no sound= bleh.


----------



## gorgonzola




----------



## DomB

For the Rivian hype and snowboarding: 






Rivian and cold weather testing:


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> For the Rivian hype and snowboarding:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rivian and cold weather testing:


Cool video with Bryan Iguchi. He is a super nice guy. Hitchhiking the pass is fun. The last time I was there I was driving a ‘79 Lincoln Continental. Not exactly eco-friendly but very comfortable. A Rivian definitely kicks it up a notch. Looks promising.


----------



## Harvey

Wow I had no idea what I was missing in here.


----------



## Kingslug

Now that I think of it ...I wouldn't care if they make no noise..The stereo makes all the noise needed. 
But I can buy 2 trucks for the price of a Rivian.


----------



## Ripitz

Kingslug said:


> Now that I think of it ...I wouldn't care if they make no noise.


You can hear that sweet V8 sound as you fly passed Corvettes


Kingslug said:


> But I can buy 2 trucks for the price of a Rivian.


and they will cost more in the long run


----------



## tirolski

Anybody know why Tesla came in so low in the recent JD Power vehicle dependability survey? 
Askin for a friend.





2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS)


TROY, Mich.: 18 Feb. 2021 — Vehicle dependability is at an all-time high, with the overall level of problems cited by owners declining 10% from a year ago, according to the J.D. Power 2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS), released today.




www.jdpower.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Anybody know why Tesla came in so low in the recent JD Power vehicle dependability survey?
> Askin for a friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS)
> 
> 
> TROY, Mich.: 18 Feb. 2021 — Vehicle dependability is at an all-time high, with the overall level of problems cited by owners declining 10% from a year ago, according to the J.D. Power 2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS), released today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jdpower.com



Because they're electric


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> and they will cost more in the long run


On paper, maybe, and only if you keep the thing for a zillion years. Time will certainly tell as these things have yet to be proven.


----------



## Harvey

How long do I have to keep my wife's Prius?

It's nine years old now. We were planning it keep it another 3 years.


----------



## jasonwx

tirolski said:


> Anybody know why Tesla came in so low in the recent JD Power vehicle dependability survey?
> Askin for a friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS)
> 
> 
> TROY, Mich.: 18 Feb. 2021 — Vehicle dependability is at an all-time high, with the overall level of problems cited by owners declining 10% from a year ago, according to the J.D. Power 2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS), released today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jdpower.com


JD Powers is horse shit

*J.D. Power* held back from including *Tesla* in the official rankings, choosing instead to "profile" the electric vehicle maker. This is because, according to *J.D. Power*, *Tesla* doesn't grant permission to survey owners of its cars in 15 states, unlike other manufacturers.


----------



## Kingslug

My Honda was 40 k...Rivian over 80K
When these things come down in price they will make more sense..and they will.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> How long do I have to keep my wife's Prius?
> 
> It's nine years old now. We were planning it keep it another 3 years.



If I remember correctly the break even is at 12 -- might be 15

It's been a while since I've been to any type of meeting, which I like very, very much.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> JD Powers is horse shit



I've been saying this exact same thing for years! They truly created quite a racket for themselves.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> If I remember correctly the break even is at 12 -- might be 15


Well even if we come up short, she likes it. She wanted an "electric car" since she did a report on the subject in 7th grade. Also to her credit she wants to hold on to it, feels like having a good old car is a badge.

And it has never had any unscheduled maintenance.


----------



## DomB

Kingslug said:


> Now that I think of it ...I wouldn't care if they make no noise..The stereo makes all the noise needed.
> But I can buy 2 trucks for the price of a Rivian.


Rivian will launch cheaper vehicles. 

Rivian is following the Tesla approach of a 'halo' vehicle. Tesla started with the Roadster, then the S/X, then the 3/Y. Apparently they are launching a sub 30k EV. 

I plan to get one and drive it into the ground. I have a res on a launch edition SUV (they call it R1s) (300+ battery) but may hold out for the extended range (won't' deliever that until Jan 2022). They have not disclosed the range. My guess is it is less than the 400 mi range for the truck. I would be happy with 375. They haven't disclosed how much range drops in the cold, which will be important for next season. 

I don't spend much on cars (current daily driver is 2011 Honda CRV) but I want to support this company and love the combo of EV and Offroad/ 'adventure' capability.


----------



## Harvey

Well I for one can't wait for you to get one.

Be so cool to hear about it and see all the pics and reports you post!


----------



## jasonwx

DomB said:


> Rivian will launch cheaper vehicles.
> 
> Rivian is following the Tesla approach of a 'halo' vehicle. Tesla started with the Roadster, then the S/X, then the 3/Y. Apparently they are launching a sub 30k EV.
> 
> I plan to get one and drive it into the ground. I have a res on a launch edition SUV (they call it R1s) (300+ battery) but may hold out for the extended range (won't' deliever that until Jan 2022). They have not disclosed the range. My guess is it is less than the 400 mi range for the truck. I would be happy with 375. They haven't disclosed how much range drops in the cold, which will be important for next season.
> 
> I don't spend much on cars (current daily driver is 2011 Honda CRV) but I want to support this company and love the combo of EV and Offroad/ 'adventure' capability.


what makes tesla , tesla is the charging network..from what i hear 2nd party chargers suck


----------



## Ripitz

Soon you’ll be able to charge anywhere








Grid Free EV Charging Solutions | SparkCharge


We offer a suite of grid-free products and solutions that make managing all aspects of EV charging simple, seamless and convenient.




www.sparkcharge.io


----------



## Harvey

jasonwx said:


> what makes tesla , tesla is the charging network..from what i hear 2nd party chargers suck


What makes a charger bad, or good?


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> How long do I have to keep my wife's Prius?
> 
> It's nine years old now. We were planning it keep it another 3 years.


Those things do last. Ever change the batteries? How many miles?


----------



## tirolski

jasonwx said:


> JD Powers is horse shit
> 
> *J.D. Power* held back from including *Tesla* in the official rankings, choosing instead to "profile" the electric vehicle maker. This is because, according to *J.D. Power*, *Tesla* doesn't grant permission to survey owners of its cars in 15 states, unlike other manufacturers.


Horse shit is great for the environment & makes plants grow better. 
Ya copied yer reply from here.








JD Power Dependability Survey Places Tesla Among Worst-Ranked Car Brands In US


J.D. Power, the automotive industry's longtime monitor of quality, included Tesla Inc (NASDAQ: TSLA) for the first time in its annual U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study. What Happened: Tesla didn't have a good showing in its debut. J.D. Power uses consumer survey data to report the number of...




news.yahoo.com




Yup. 
They did come in at #166 with permission from the 35 states where permission was granted.


----------



## Harvey

Tjf1967 said:


> Those things do last. Ever change the batteries? How many miles?


Not sure maybe 90k?

We haven't touched the batteries. Our guy told us that if the battery performance drops to the point where you notice, you can replace individual cells. They have some way to see which cells are worse and you can get a few more years by just replacing the worst sections.

(A while back) I asked for an estimate on battery replacement. He told me "maybe $2000 right now." He also told me that the price of full battery replacement fluctuates a lot based on the cost of the raw materials.


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> Anybody know why Tesla came in so low in the recent JD Power vehicle dependability survey?
> Askin for a friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS)
> 
> 
> TROY, Mich.: 18 Feb. 2021 — Vehicle dependability is at an all-time high, with the overall level of problems cited by owners declining 10% from a year ago, according to the J.D. Power 2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS), released today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jdpower.com


T - not sure why this happened, but if you want a fairly objective and very, very thorough analysis of Tesla, youtube Munro. From what I have seen, Tesla fell in quality (panel gap sizes, bad paint work) when it was ramping Model 3 production. It seems like there has been some improvement. On the paint, for example, they weren't allowing enough dry time (something like 8 minutes) before moving the cars. You will get what seems to me thoughtful and fair analysis from Munro. He is so respected that he has gotten to sit down with Musk. He is the only one I have seen ask Musk tough questions. 

Munro is a pretty impressive dude. I think he grew up at GM as an engineer, is older now, and basically consults with all auto companies. He buys cars as a regular customer, tears them down to the most base engineering level, and sells thousand page plus reports to the big auto makers. For us mere mortals, he has really cool Youtube videos (his son and a senior member of his team both had to convince him to do the Youtube angle). For anyone thinking about Tesla, I would selective watch his videos.

He also has a Rivian preorder in and will tear that down, though it may not help me because I would likely be fairly early in the Que if I stick with the launch edition. His is on the truck, which starts in June. Suv starts in August (if they stick with the pushed back time). 

Harv thanks for the note. Not trying to humble brag here. Will try to turn down the excitement. FWIW, I freely admit that all the issues with range that people are talking about may end up being very real. What I think that means for me is that I will have to stop around 20 min in Albany in each way for fast charging. When I go to Gore, I almost always stop when I am with family.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> What makes a charger bad, or good?


It's very, very good for Tesla - a dependable, fast charging system. That is all you want. Anywhere you want to go, your Tesla will take you there and route you to their chargers. Whether 4 hours to the ADK or across the country. 

Jason, here again, Rivian is taking a page from Tesla, though altering it slightly. They will have their own charger network (bad acronym: Rivian Adventure Network). Part of that will be putting chargers where you want to get offgrid (you read that right Camp). From the one or two leases of spaces that have come out, they will charge at 300kw, which I think is as fast as Tesla's fastest. The first actual lease I have seen is in Salida CO, which is supposed to be a fun place and close to some National Parks. 

But, they are also building into the universal system (CCS I think?). For the 50 separate locations that NY wants to build by 2022 (Schroon Lake and Watertown already have operational locations), a Rivian will be able to tap into that. Google EVOLVENY. So Rivian will work with Electrify America (which from what I hear is buggy).

I don't know too much about the charging network because Rivian is (annoyingly at this point 3 months from production) very mum on details. 

As much as I love what they are doing, if I don't have details that I need to complete the most expensive nonreal estate purchase I have made, I won't go through with it.


----------



## DomB

This is interesting on what EV's advertise for range / get on EPA score and what they deliver in real world driving. 

Short takeaway - Porsche underpromises and over delivers, Tesla the opposite, though they have improved on that.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> T - not sure why this happened, but if you want a fairly objective and very, very thorough analysis of Tesla, youtube Munro.


DB Thanks for your feedback. Might go with an e-bike to start, baby steps and it’s hilly. I’ll check out Munro too.


----------



## Ripitz

How EVs were a lifeline for 3 families (and 6 cats) during the Texas blackout


Three electric car owners in Texas explain how their EVs helped them get through February's deep freeze and rolling blackouts.




electrek.co


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> How EVs were a lifeline for 3 families (and 6 cats) during the Texas blackout
> 
> 
> Three electric car owners in Texas explain how their EVs helped them get through February's deep freeze and rolling blackouts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co


just like ICE vehicles......
Then, when the power came back and they charged their Tesla's they got a $5000 bill.


----------



## Ripitz

They were using them in their garages, which is not like the ICEs that killed people from carbon monoxide trying to stay warm.


----------



## Ripitz

and if they had a power wall they wouldn’t receive a bill at all


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> They were using them in their garages, which is not like the ICEs that killed people from carbon monoxide trying to stay warm.


The ICEs didnt kill anybody, the idiots and morons did.


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> and if they had a power wall they wouldn’t receive a bill at all


Power walls are free now?


----------



## Ripitz

My friend who has one paid nothing out of pocket. The payment is equal to his previous electric bill. So yes, for him it was essentially free. An ICE generator would have cost him money out of pocket and would do nothing 99% of the time. He also has full backup power for three days. He could go over a week using essentials only. Besides, the system is *not *dependent on the grid. It recharges using panels so he can keep going for weeks if necessary.


----------



## Tjf1967

Ripitz said:


> My friend who has one paid nothing out of pocket. The payment is equal to his previous electric bill. So yes, for him it was essentially free. An ICE generator would have cost him money out of pocket and would do nothing 99% of the time. He also has full backup power for three days. He could go over a week using essentials only. Besides, the system is *not *dependent on the grid. It recharges using panels so he can keep going for weeks if necessary.m



If you put a system like that in you are not doing it to save money. You don't. Maybe 15 years out but I even doubt that. I've done the math. You don't put these systems in to save money. 
You can't even overproduce and get paid anymore. They use credits. You use to get a check for the discounted rate on your anniversary for what was excess to the grid.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> My friend who has one paid nothing out of pocket. The payment is equal to his previous electric bill. So yes, for him it was essentially free. An ICE generator would have cost him money out of pocket and would do nothing 99% of the time. He also has full backup power for three days. He could go over a week using essentials only. Besides, the system is *not *dependent on the grid. It recharges using panels so he can keep going for weeks if necessary.



My dad has a diesel generator backup in his house. All he has to do is flip one switch on the panel and the entire house is lit up. That thing will run for years, and the cost of that generator was nowhere near, what, 10 to 15k?


----------



## Ripitz

There are several manufacturers of solar charged portable power systems that have a lower price point. They range in size and some can be wired to power a home. They provide power with no noise and zero emissions. They are great for backup power, camping and remote job sites.








Portable Power Stations, Solar Generators & Home Backup | Goal Zero


Experience the power of Goal Zero by improving your lifestyle with our portable power stations, solar generators, solar panels, power banks, and home energy storage solutions.




www.goalzero.com


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> My friend who has one paid nothing out of pocket. The payment is equal to his previous electric bill.


He must have an expensive electric bill. 
I average about $50/month for electric delivery and use. A 3k solar system would cost me about $7k-$9k without batteries. Add about $10k for 1 solar wall unit. NJ has a generation incentive now called a TREC - which generates about $90/1000kwh plus my $600/year current cost for generation would equal $870/yr. NJ only allows systems that produce roughly what you use, so minimal money at wholesale rates for generating overage.
So without the battery, using simple math (no loss of future value on the spend, increase in rates, loss of panel efficiency, maintenance), I am looking at a 10 year payback. With the battery system it would be twice as long.



Ripitz said:


> So yes, for him it was essentially free. An ICE generator would have cost him money out of pocket and would do nothing 99% of the time. He also has full backup power for three days. He could go over a week using essentials only. Besides, the system is *not *dependent on the grid. It recharges using panels so he can keep going for weeks if necessary.


ICE generators can be had for $300/3500 watt or $600/6800 watt (dual fuel). I have run my house on our 1500 watt generator when we lose power (4 times in 10 years) including heat but no AC. A 5 gallon gas can will last me almost 10 days. If he is not hooked to the grid, he is subject to other issues if he loses his system. His battery portion is still incredibly expensive (about 17 times for 1 battery wall panel) when compared to using the grid as a battery and having a rarely used ICE generator.

I am all for solar if it works. In states like Texas it should be on every new home (it is not). We might install solar if the payback is reduced to 5 years, The battery portion is still incredibly expensive and not worth it.


----------



## Kingslug

We looked into solar..too may trees. Can't even get satellite TV. But our whole house generator has saved us so many times I can't count. Those trees..tend to come down a lot around here.


----------



## Harvey

Kingslug said:


> We looked into solar..too may trees. Can't even get satellite TV. But our whole house generator has saved us so many times I can't count. Those trees..tend to come down a lot around here.



I resemble this remark.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I resemble this remark.


Ya’ve said ya prefer being in the trees, so ya got that going for ya.
I’m in the trees too much golfin to have fun skiin between em.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> I am all for solar if it works.



I am too. I'm actually very intrigued by it, the fact you can generate power from the suns rays is amazing to me. As with most technology things get better. One thing I hope they can improve is the size of panels that are needed to generate power. Right now, here in CNY, there are massive solar farms popping up all over the countryside. I get that the property owners are making much needed money, but it's such a shame to see what once was beautiful pasture full of cows now home to butt ass ugly solar panels.


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> If you put a system like that in you are not doing it to save money. You don't. Maybe 15 years out but I even doubt that. I've done the math. You don't put these systems in to save money.
> You can't even overproduce and get paid anymore. They use credits. You use to get a check for the discounted rate on your anniversary for what was excess to the grid.


TJ - I have been spending time looking into this. 

Our house uses just about the average electrical consumption. AFTER REBATES, the break even point is 10-15 years for Tesla Solar panels (which they claim are the most cost effective - I don't know if that is true). Tesla's solar roof product has a longer pay back (more like 20 years) but if you need a roof, it gives you a new roof and a solar generation. Some rebates apply at the point of sale, but most of state and federal are paid back to you when you get your tax return. So like April to October after filing year. But I agree, if one pursues, it is not a pure economic decision because you can put that money to much more productive uses. 

Also, the shape and direction of your roof has a big impact. I can only get to 80% offset from panels and 54% from solar roof. If my roof was ideal, I probably could get to 100%. 

As you note, if you think about the fact that this is a payback to 0, it is not an economic investment (putting that money into an market index fund would double it in 10 years at 7 pc as you know). 

One small modification to your point - my local utility has a program where if you have batteries and they have a high demand event, you allow them to drain your batteries to feed the grid. When this happens, they pay quite a high rate. I did the math, they had three events last year, which totaled about $450. For my low usage months, that is more than a month. I'd have to check the math, but that is probably more than 20% of my annual cost. When I spoke to them, it sounded like it was a fairly new program. I am LI PSEG. 

Also, anyone looking into this should realize you will not get your utility bill to 0. On average, mine is about 205. Even if I were 100% offset, there are still like $25 in regulatory fees for the privilege of being connected to the grid. 

Hopefully this is helpful. FYI, google has a lot of info on state, federal, and utility rebates. 

And people should know that battery rebates bring the cost of a tesla powerall to about the level of a gas or diesel generator.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I am too. I'm actually very intrigued by it, the fact you can generate power from the suns rays is amazing to me.


Photosynthesis with plants has been going on for awhile in case ya forgot Camp. Some folks say it burns well and can throw some heat. Ya can eat some of em as they taste good too.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Photosynthesis with plants has been going on for awhile in case ya forgot Camp. Some folks say it burns well and can throw some heat. Ya can eat some of em as they taste good too.



LOL -- yes, I'm aware of that


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Right now, here in CNY, there are massive solar farms popping up all over the countryside. I get that the property owners are making much needed money, but it's such a shame to see what once was beautiful pasture full of cows now home to butt ass ugly solar panels.


I agree that the large solar arrays can be eyesores. The ground underneath ends up being a waste of space which is a shame especially if it is good pasture. Most of them are mowed by man and machine which I think is wasteful. I’ve seen some with sheep grazing under them which to me looks like the best arrangement. The panels give them shade and shelter from the elements. It wouldn’t replace the mowing entirely but would certainly decrease the need. In an ideal situation you could add broilers and egg layers too. The same space could produce power, meat, eggs, and fiber.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Most of them are mowed by man



This is what's hilarious about solar panels. Here in town we have a SUNY school. The x-country team used to run thru a little corner of this field until somebody got all butt hurt that there were wild flowers in there and they would be running over them. They changed the course, no biggie, and for a few years it was all roped off so nobody could ruin the natural growth of said wild flowers. Now, this same little field that nobody could go into, is full of ugly solar panels and the mow around them. I laugh my ass of every single time I see them mowing.


----------



## Kingslug

Harvey said:


> I resemble this remark.


you can ski on my property any time you want...might be a bit ....sporty


----------



## Kingslug

Just drive around VT...solar everywhere.


----------



## x10003q

Kingslug said:


> Just drive around VT...solar everywhere.


It is the only way for most farmers to make a steady living in VT.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> It is the only way for most farmers to make a steady living in VT.


Gettin busy with steady livin,


----------



## Tjf1967

DomB said:


> TJ - I have been spending time looking into this.
> 
> Our house uses just about the average electrical consumption. AFTER REBATES, the break even point is 10-15 years for Tesla Solar panels (which they claim are the most cost effective - I don't know if that is true). Tesla's solar roof product has a longer pay back (more like 20 years) but if you need a roof, it gives you a new roof and a solar generation. Some rebates apply at the point of sale, but most of state and federal are paid back to you when you get your tax return. So like April to October after filing year. But I agree, if one pursues, it is not a pure economic decision because you can put that money to much more productive uses.
> 
> Also, the shape and direction of your roof has a big impact. I can only get to 80% offset from panels and 54% from solar roof. If my roof was ideal, I probably could get to 100%.
> 
> As you note, if you think about the fact that this is a payback to 0, it is not an economic investment (putting that money into an market index fund would double it in 10 years at 7 pc as you know).
> 
> One small modification to your point - my local utility has a program where if you have batteries and they have a high demand event, you allow them to drain your batteries to feed the grid. When this happens, they pay quite a high rate. I did the math, they had three events last year, which totaled about $450. For my low usage months, that is more than a month. I'd have to check the math, but that is probably more than 20% of my annual cost. When I spoke to them, it sounded like it was a fairly new program. I am LI PSEG.
> 
> Also, anyone looking into this should realize you will not get your utility bill to 0. On average, mine is about 205. Even if I were 100% offset, there are still like $25 in regulatory fees for the privilege of being connected to the grid.
> 
> Hopefully this is helpful. FYI, google has a lot of info on state, federal, and utility rebates.
> 
> And people should know that battery rebates bring the cost of a tesla powerall to about the level of a gas or diesel generator.


You're spot on with what your saying. But you will need a heck of a lot more storage too take care of your energy needs. Why install it only to cover your lights? You want something to grow into. When you get into two possibly three power walls the bill just keeps going up. I have room for 47 panels. I looked into the tesla roof. By the time that thing is available and efficient I'll be collecting social security. I put a new roof in last summer. This summer I'm putting up panels and powerwall. I am going to have to gc it myself. I had one outfit over. 83k before rebates. I need to be cost to 50 to make it happen.


----------



## Ripitz

Going all in. This year will tell how it compares to the gasser.


----------



## tirolski

Is this solar powered stuff gonna be like the other tech stuff where the folks with it first pay more to be first then the price drops as masses come on line? Works for big TVs, phones, computers, GPS thingies, generic meds ...


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Is this solar powered stuff gonna be like the other tech stuff where the folks with it first pay more to be first then the price drops as masses come on line? Works for big TVs, phones, computers, GPS thingies, generic meds ...


I would think so.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Going all in. This year will tell how it compares to the gasser.View attachment 8593View attachment 8594


That thing is sweet!


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> That thing is sweet!


Awesome. I have a Worx electric mower for my tiny yard. It is way less mower than your beast for my suburban yard. I found it performed well, but in the summer on hot days, I got half the range, where I had to switch out the two 20 v batteries. My entire mower weighs like 25 lbs. 

I really like my electric leaf blower. I have an electric hedge trimmer that is fine. The cost of all the stuff was less than one season of paying a landscaper, so I am good with it. Way less noise. 

Rip, maybe you can convert Camp!


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> You're spot on with what your saying. But you will need a heck of a lot more storage too take care of your energy needs. Why install it only to cover your lights? You want something to grow into. When you get into two possibly three power walls the bill just keeps going up. I have room for 47 panels. I looked into the tesla roof. By the time that thing is available and efficient I'll be collecting social security. I put a new roof in last summer. This summer I'm putting up panels and powerwall. I am going to have to gc it myself. I had one outfit over. 83k before rebates. I need to be cost to 50 to make it happen.


Thanks, T. my notes above reflect a two powerwall design. For panels, it was like 3 days backup with an air conditioner, and solar roof like 1.5 days. 

I 100% agree with the point of needing a system to grow into. My issue is that if I get the Rivian, my electric demand could go from 11250 kw/h to like 15,000 kw/h based upon the range of the vehicle and assumption of 12,000 miles driving. As you can see I am stoked about the product, but I am starting to get frustrated that it is supposed to get this close to production and they are not releasing any significant details (they haven't even released EPA ranges). Still support the company, but questioning if I should get it now. 

Still electric is about half the price of gas, but then an 80% system would only cover like 50-60; and 54 % would only cover like 33% . . . . So I have some thinking to do. Texas was a bit of a commercial for independence, so there's that. On the other hand, I live in area where electric gets up quickly when it goes out because I am very close to a major (electric) train hub. Some places on LI still have diesel trains. 

There is a relatively new rebate in NY that brings the price of a powerwall down to 6,250, which I think is like 1,000 more than a generator. 

The federal Green Act, if passed, will add a new federal 30% rebate for storage (right now fed rebate is only for solar systems). That will be interesting, because at that point, a battery 'generator' will be less than a gas or natural gas one of comprable juice.

FWIW, it looks like Tesla may have dropped solar prices in October 2020.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Rip, maybe you can convert Camp!



LMAO!!

I doubt it simply because I already have a barn full of my already needed "stuff" to maintain my property, all gas. I do need a new leaf blower (don't use it for leaves, rather blowing off my deck) and I will def be looking at a battery powered one. Does that count?


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> You're spot on with what your saying. But you will need a heck of a lot more storage too take care of your energy needs. Why install it only to cover your lights? You want something to grow into. When you get into two possibly three power walls the bill just keeps going up. I have room for 47 panels. I looked into the tesla roof. By the time that thing is available and efficient I'll be collecting social security. I put a new roof in last summer. This summer I'm putting up panels and powerwall. I am going to have to gc it myself. I had one outfit over. 83k before rebates. I need to be cost to 50 to make it happen.


The other thing I would add regarding cost - for the $100 deposit with Tesla, they will give you a fully speced recommended design. I looked at it as a design fee. 

If you plug in your bill amount and your address, they will give you a rough rule of thumb for your house and break down all the credits. That part doesn't cost anything but is maybe 80% accurate. That is where wierd roof angles (like my house) will throw it off. May be worth your time given the price differences you are getting.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> LMAO!!
> 
> I doubt it simply because I already have a barn full of my already needed "stuff" to maintain my property, all gas. I do need a new leaf blower (don't use it for leaves, rather blowing off my deck) and I will def be looking at a battery powered one. Does that count?


Yes - i am quite happy with my Worx leaf blower. I will take a pic and post it. The only thing with any of these electric systems, you need to buy their battery (thing the old 19.2 Sears drills, which is what I still use today), so that is a cost. 

I am shocked at how powerful it is.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Going all in. This year will tell how it compares to the gasser.
> View attachment 8593
> View attachment 8594



But for 20k???? OUCH!

I have a 27hp 4wd tractor with a bucket loader, 62" mower deck, 49" blower attachment, and a cab for that.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> Awesome.
> I really like my electric leaf blower. I have an electric hedge trimmer that is fine. Way less noise.


Same with e-weedwackers. Job is nasty enough without having to screw around with getting it started, smoke and added vibrations. An added benefit is when the battery dies it’s time to quit.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Job is nasty enough


Worst chore known to mankind


----------



## x10003q

My wife does not like the look of solar panels and the front of our house faces south. I looked at the Tesla solar shingles and the numbers were insane for using the shingles - like $40k-50k, not including the battery. They do look awesome.


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> Rip, maybe you can convert Camp!


Now I have to buy an electric sled⚡


----------



## Tjf1967

DomB said:


> Thanks, T. my notes above reflect a two powerwall design. For panels, it was like 3 days backup with an air conditioner, and solar roof like 1.5 days.
> 
> I 100% agree with the point of needing a system to grow into. My issue is that if I get the Rivian, my electric demand could go from 11250 kw/h to like 15,000 kw/h based upon the range of the vehicle and assumption of 12,000 miles driving. As you can see I am stoked about the product, but I am starting to get frustrated that it is supposed to get this close to production and they are not releasing any significant details (they haven't even released EPA ranges). Still support the company, but questioning if I should get it now.
> 
> Still electric is about half the price of gas, but then an 80% system would only cover like 50-60; and 54 % would only cover like 33% . . . . So I have some thinking to do. Texas was a bit of a commercial for independence, so there's that. On the other hand, I live in area where electric gets up quickly when it goes out because I am very close to a major (electric) train hub. Some places on LI still have diesel trains.
> 
> There is a relatively new rebate in NY that brings the price of a powerwall down to 6,250, which I think is like 1,000 more than a generator.
> 
> The federal Green Act, if passed, will add a new federal 30% rebate for storage (right now fed rebate is only for solar systems). That will be interesting, because at that point, a battery 'generator' will be less than a gas or natural gas one of comprable juice.
> 
> FWIW, it looks like Tesla may have dropped solar prices in October 2020.


Tesla roof I kicked out last summer when I put a new roof on. You didn't read my post. I appreciate the suggestions,a little listening may help. 
What do you want solar to do for you? That really is going to dictate what you need. 
Then you build the system.
Tesla is not ready for roofs. If you gave them money today it would be a couple years before you hear anything.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> But for 20k???? OUCH!


>


Campgottagopee said:


> I have a 27hp 4wd tractor


What color is it?


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> Tesla roof I kicked out last summer when I put a new roof on. You didn't read my post. I appreciate the suggestions,a little listening may help.
> What do you want solar to do for you? That really is going to dictate what you need.
> Then you build the system.
> Tesla is not ready for roofs. If you gave them money today it would be a couple years before you hear anything.


Sorry TJ - apologize for not reading well or closely. Listening is always the best place to start, and I didn't do it well.

In my area, Tesla roof wait time is 2-8 months (including permitting time). I am little torn on what I want it for. Primary motivator was energy independence, but then I saw they made roofs, I figured I could take care of not needing another roof while I own this house with benefit. The production numbers were low enough on the roof that I am not even sure what to do, or if I should just wait another year. Doing nothing in the short term may be the best choice for me.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> >
> 
> What color is it?


 Orange, SU Orange


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Now I have to buy an electric sled⚡


Do it!!!


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Orange, SU Orange


You got a bota? I had you for green paint


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> You got a bota? I had you for green paint



Nope

It's Simplicity. At the time when I bought it (12ish years ago) I knew the dealer, and he was a customer of mine. I've been very happy with it. It's a V-twin Kawasaki and runs like a champ. Made in the USA.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Nope
> 
> It's Simplicity. At the time when I bought it (12ish years ago) I knew the dealer, and he was a customer of mine. I've been very happy with it. It's a V-twin Kawasaki and runs like a champ. Made in the USA.


I didn’t know they made those anymore. The only ones I see around are antiques that refuse to die. Learn something new everyday. They also own Billygoat and Ferris. We looked hard at Ferris. Great machines and made in CNY makes them even more appealing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

My only regret is that I didn't get the diesel, but I didn't have the extra cash and needed a new tractor badly. After seeing mine my dad got a diesel and that thing is a true tank. With a 62" deck you could mow in a monsoon and it won't bog down, where the gasser will. 

It's not a farm tractor but it's certainly handy for a homeowner.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> My only regret is that I didn't get the diesel, but I didn't have the extra cash and needed a new tractor badly. After seeing mine my dad got a diesel and that thing is a true tank. With a 62" deck you could mow in a monsoon and it won't bog down, where the gasser will.
> 
> It's not a farm tractor but it's certainly handy for a homeowner.


Camp, TJ - what do you guys think if this thing actually becomes a thing? I am feeling optimistic about EVs for truck enthusiasts. 









Canoo's New Pickup Is All Electric, All American – Ready For Work & The Weekend | Press | Canoo


Los Angeles, CA – (March 10, 2021) – Canoo Inc. (Nasdaq: GOEV), a company developing breakthrough purpose-built electric vehicles (EVs) with a proprietary and highly versatile platform architecture, debuted today its fully-electric pickup truck during the Motor Press Guild’s Vir




www.press.canoo.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

That thing is rad looking! 

This "stuff" is too much money for me. No way can I justify it ........ yet.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> Camp, TJ - what do you guys think if this thing actually becomes a thing? I am feeling optimistic about EVs for truck enthusiasts.


Not to butt in but, 
Looks like Ford “fixed" the extending the range thingy by adding a removable generator that looks like a tool box to their truck's bed in a new patent. 
Whoever would’ve thought of that?





Patent Public Search | USPTO







pdfpiw.uspto.gov


----------



## Campgottagopee

So you'll be charging your electric truck with a gas powered generator? Cool


----------



## jasonwx

tirolski said:


> Not to butt in but,
> Looks like Ford “fixed" the extending the range thingy by adding a removable generator that looks like a tool box to their truck's bed in a new patent.
> Whoever would’ve thought of that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patent Public Search | USPTO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pdfpiw.uspto.gov


Yep it’s called a Prius


----------



## tirolski

jasonwx said:


> Yep it’s called a Prius


Yes but it looks like a tool box and is removable and/or portable, allegedly.


----------



## Brownski

I would like to see what could be done with more radical hybrid designs or a straight gas/electric drivetrain. I feel like we’re trying to jump ahead five steps going all the way to plug-in EVs


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> I would like to see what could be done with more radical hybrid designs or a straight gas/electric drivetrain. I feel like we’re trying to jump ahead five steps going all the way to plug-in EVs


I think Toyota and Honda agree with you. I don't know all the details but I think that is what the RAV4 Prime hybrid is trying to get at. I remember looking at the straight RAV4 hybrid and being impressed. Highlander uses same tech. Maybe Marznc has one if I remember correctly?


----------



## tirolski

When used to fish Ontario trollin for salmon the big boats would go 2 mph for hours after runnin miles with diesels and big engines to find the fish. Thought a hybrid e-motor would be ideal, due to stealth and other advantages, then saw Honda had patented an e-transmission thingy as the trollin boats already have good batteries. Have yet to see em on the big O but I golf instead now, so there’s that.


----------



## Ripitz

My understanding is that there are too many parts to mesh the systems and they become unnecessarily over complicated. The hybrid designs aren’t even on the drawing board of major part manufacturers anymore. Car companies are looking passed these in favor of electric because of their simplicity. The upcoming Lordstown truck is built with the fewest parts of any vehicle in history.


----------



## tirolski

It’s this one. Honda should have reduced it to practice. https://patents.justia.com/patent/9533748


----------



## Ripitz

I always thought the diesel electric hybrid systems made the most sense, especially if they ran on veggie oil. VW’s XL1 gets 300 miles on a gallon of fuel. If they can’t radically improve mpgs, to match the fast paced improvements of batteries, the ICE will be doomed way sooner than later.


----------



## Ripitz

"Drop-in" Axle Could Easily Electrify Trucks


Magna's eBeam takes the place of a conventional live axle.




www.automobilemag.com


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> I think Toyota and Honda agree with you. I don't know all the details but I think that is what the RAV4 Prime hybrid is trying to get at. I remember looking at the straight RAV4 hybrid and being impressed. Highlander uses same tech. Maybe Marznc has one if I remember correctly?


Yep, I drove to NY last fall to pick up a RAV4 Prime PHEV. Have enjoyed it.

Now that it's warming up, a full charge is showing 42+ miles EV range. Was usually 38 miles when the temp at night was in the 30s.

When driving up mountain passes in VA/WV in the last couple months, I played with the Sport mode under HV. Makes it very easy to climb without having to add pressure to the accelerator. Clearly different than Eco or Normal mode. The Prime has two electric motors, with a separate one for the rear axle. Haven't really used the AWD yet.


----------



## Harvey

Automotive Startup Canoo Debuts a Snub-Nosed Electric Pickup


The pickup sports a unique design taken from Canoo’s passenger van and is set to have over 200 miles of range. It will go into production in 2023.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## DomB

I am taking credit for Rivian saying they will open 20 min/140 mi charging stations from Manhattan to the Daks by the end of this year (I called customer service multiple times to ask for this). 

A bunch of the Rivian charging network (high speed and L2 desitionation) included in this. Looks like they are going the Tesla route of full built out charging network. 

On the personal front this went from a definite buy to a maybe due to some personal reasons. All good. Hope to have more clarity in the next 6 months. If I don't get this in the Launch Edition, plan is to hold the CRV for one more year. I don't see myself buying another ICE vehicle ever. Our second car is 2014 and has like 18,000 miles. When we were in a commuting world, I walked less than 5 min to the train station then walked in the city or took the subway on the 20 days a year when you didn't want to be outside at all. 









Rivian Charging - Rivian Stories


We are building the Rivian Adventure Network — a nationwide network of DC fast chargers capable of adding up to 140 miles of range in 20 minutes to the R1T and R1S. The Rivian Adventure Network is designed for quick recharges so you can keep moving. Planned to connect cities on popular routes...




stories.rivian.com


----------



## Ripitz

Cummins claims to power first vehicle-to-grid school buses in North America, 2 years after Lion


Global power provider Cummins announced it has powered two fully operational vehicle-to-grid Blue Bird school buses in Illinois.




electrek.co


----------



## Campgottagopee

Talked with a buddy of mine yesterday who is a car guy, drives like on too. He wheels an A8, just to give you an idea. I asked him about Tesla. His comment was, they're great if you don't want to drive very fast for very long.


----------



## Ripitz

Rivian CEO reveals collaboration with Yakima


In a Tweet sent out this weekend, Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe shared images of his family in a R1T camper featuring a Yakima logo.




electrek.co




Hey Dom, hope to see you next year in the Tomahawk lot with your new rig!


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Talked with a buddy of mine yesterday who is a car guy, drives like on too. He wheels an A8, just to give you an idea. I asked him about Tesla. His comment was, they're great if you don't want to drive very fast for very long.


and 1 physical refresh in 10 years in 2016. They must be saving a boatload of money on designers.


----------



## tirolski

It’s really just a hybrid internal combustion runnin on natural gas thingy.


----------



## Ripitz

Commentary: Texas grid, EVs can work together


Rather than look at electric vehicles as some sort of pariah on the grid, a more...




www.expressnews.com


----------



## JohnF

Ripitz said:


> Commentary: Texas grid, EVs can work together
> 
> 
> Rather than look at electric vehicles as some sort of pariah on the grid, a more...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.expressnews.com


Paywall


----------



## Ripitz

I got around it by doing a Google search. Basically says that energy supply and demand problems can be remedied though storage and EVs can help with that using vehicle to grid technology


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> I got around it by doing a Google search. Basically says that energy supply and demand problems can be remedied though storage and EVs can help with that using vehicle to grid technology


I could not read the article, but as of today, Texas has zero statewide programs to promote solar and Texas is one of the best states in the USA for solar. Texas does not have a net metering policy. This is pure fantasy to think that the Texas grid operators are going to set up a plan for homeowners with EVs to wire for net metering. Texas has had a residential building boom in its metro areas for the last 25 years, yet solar is almost nonexistent. Texas could have cut massive amounts of electric generation emissions if there were some incentives to add solar to new construction, but, Texas is always going to be Texan.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> but, Texas is always going to be Texan.


It’s like herdin cats with the cats packin and/or in heat.


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> I could not read the article, but as of today, Texas has zero statewide programs to promote solar and Texas is one of the best states in the USA for solar. Texas does not have a net metering policy. This is pure fantasy to think that the Texas grid operators are going to set up a plan for homeowners with EVs to wire for net metering. Texas has had a residential building boom in its metro areas for the last 25 years, yet solar is almost nonexistent. Texas could have cut massive amounts of electric generation emissions if there were some incentives to add solar to new construction, but, Texas is always going to be Texan.


Got it. I guess we shouldn’t even try


----------



## DomB

Keep trying!


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> Got it. I guess we shouldn’t even try


Absurd take away


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> I could not read the article, but as of today, Texas has zero statewide programs to promote solar and Texas is one of the best states in the USA for solar. Texas does not have a net metering policy. This is pure fantasy to think that the Texas grid operators are going to set up a plan for homeowners with EVs to wire for net metering. Texas has had a residential building boom in its metro areas for the last 25 years, yet solar is almost nonexistent. Texas could have cut massive amounts of electric generation emissions if there were some incentives to add solar to new construction, but, Texas is always going to be Texan.



X, in our community there are solar "farms" popping up all over the damn place. Not only are they ugly AF to me but my question is who is going to benefit from these? Some feel our electric bills will go down, that isn't going to happen, so why all the farms?


----------



## tirolski

Instead putting panels on the good farm land folks should put ‘em on the acres where they’ve been paying farmers not to plant stuff.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Instead putting panels on the good farm land folks should put ‘em on the acres where they’ve been paying farmers not to plant stuff


This would make too much sense, even still they're but ass ugly.


----------



## trackbiker

tirolski said:


> Instead putting panels on the good farm land folks should put ‘em on the acres where they’ve been paying farmers not to plant stuff.


I work in the Lehigh Valley where they are building warehouses like crazy. Some up to half a million square feet.(11 acres!) Unfortunately on mostly former farm land. Many of these have solar panels on the roof. Why they don't all have them on the roof is beyond me. Many use the solar power to charge forklifts or to make hydrogen to charge fuel cells to run forklifts.After the cost of the capital equipment required the energy is essentially "free".


----------



## tirolski

The Lehigh Valley is prime farmland. 
It’s also prime location for distribution of stuffs to the megalopolis.
Amazon is building their new warehouse on the Liverpool golf course near where 81 and 90 cross paths.


----------



## Ripitz

I guess my absurd takeaway is


x10003q said:


> pure fantasy


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> X, in our community there are solar "farms" popping up all over the damn place. Not only are they ugly AF to me but my question is who is going to benefit from these? Some feel our electric bills will go down, that isn't going to happen, so why all the farms?


There are probably profit and/or tax benefits for farmers. It probably smoothes out their revenue. NYS has probably created a timetable to try and reduce emissions from electric generation which would encourage solar. At some point solar might get cheaper, but they will also try to get what the market will bear to get more private money involved and ween solar providers off NYS benefits.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Thanks ^^^


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> There are probably profit and/or tax benefits for farmers. It probably smoothes out their revenue. NYS has probably created a timetable to try and reduce emissions from electric generation which would encourage solar. At some point solar might get cheaper, but they will also try to get what the market will bear to get more private money involved and ween solar providers off NYS benefits.


It seems New York hasn’t a problem with the Bitcoin mining natural gas fired electric power plant emissions on Seneca Lake for some reason and their planned expansion.
Who knows?








As bitcoin's price rockets ever higher, Greenidge mining profits soar: Will owners' windfall wealth trickle down? | Fingerlakes1.com


As bitcoin's price rockets ever higher, Greenidge mining profits soar: Will owners' windfall wealth trickle down?




fingerlakes1.com


----------



## Milo Maltbie

WTF is bitcoin mining and why does it require electricity?

mm


----------



## D.B. Cooper

"Mining" Bitcoin, or any cryptocurrency, is calculations done by computers, especially servers in a data center. The energy consumption is in redundant power supplies - about 300 watts each - network switches and routers, etc. Moreso, though, the energy consumption is in the cooling that's required. Without adequate air flow/cooling, a data center would overheat and collapse in - I'm guessing - 20 minutes.


----------



## Ripitz

Generator-Equipped EVs Could Help During Weather Emergencies


More electric vehicle makers are considering the addition of onboard generators in newer models. The ability to generate power would be useful in extreme weather situations like the one Texas faced earlier this year.




www.govtech.com


----------



## Brownski

An electric vehicle with a generator is not an EV. It’s a hybrid. Which is great. I’ve always wondered how hard it would be to add “outgoing” to a hybrid for just this reason. Actual EVs would be much worse in a disaster. Once you run the battery dry, you’re stuck in place right?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Once you run the battery dry, you’re stuck in place right?


Yep
And you can't drive very fast for very far ---- a true wheel man said that


----------



## tirolski

The pickup with the generator thingy in the bed should be able to make juice for use to other things while parked.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tesla Model Y Real World Range Test Illustrates the Paradox of EVs


Tesla EVs are famous for three things: acceleration, the Supercharger network, and their unbeaten range. It may be the first of the three that makes most of the headlines, but it's the other two that generate the bulk of the sales.




www.autoevolution.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

This is just crazy to even think about









US sends team to probe fatal Tesla crash with no driver


Federal safety regulators have sent a team to investigate the fatal crash of a Tesla near Houston in which local authorities say no one was behind the wheel




abcnews.go.com


----------



## Campgottagopee




----------



## Harvey

2022 Ford F-150 Lightning: Here's how to watch the electric truck's debut if you missed it


Forgot to tune in on Wednesday night? You can still watch the Ford's all-electric F-Series glitzy reveal right here.




www.cnet.com


----------



## Harvey

WOW. Skip ahead to about 15 mins if you want to see the truck. Very cool IMO.


----------



## jasonwx

For what it’s worth
My daughter’s project at work is to design a 6000 space employee parking lot For the new rivian factory in Arizona. I guess they are going full in.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> WOW. Skip ahead to about 15 mins if you want to see the truck. Very cool IMO.



Ford Debuts Electric F-150

Ford unveiled the battery-powered version of its F-150 pickup, joining other auto makers in the nascent electric-truck segment. The F-150 Lightning undercuts several rivals with a starting price around $40,000. Photo: Dominick Sokotoff/Zuma Press
By 
Mike Colias

Ford Motor Co. F -0.25% plans to undercut several rival producers of electric pickup trucks when its battery-powered F-150 goes on sale next year.
The company revealed prices for its newest truck—the first fully electric version of its top-selling and most-profitable vehicle—during an event Wednesday evening at its Dearborn, Mich., headquarters.
The company said the F-150 Lightning will have a starting price of $39,974 when it arrives in showrooms next year, significantly below that of some other electric trucks slated to hit the market. That is before tax credits are factored in.

Production of the new electric pickup is expected to start next spring in Michigan, the company said.

Ford’s F -0.25% strategy diverges from that of most other companies entering the nascent electric-truck segment. While several traditional auto makers and startups are preparing to roll out sporty, adventure-theme pickups at higher prices, Ford wants to attract fleet buyers, who generally prefer no-frills trucks that are cheaper to operate.
“That is a lot of truck for that starting point,” said Darren Palmer, Ford’s general manager of battery electric vehicles, adding that it will accelerate faster than any F-150 that Ford has made. “People are just making their first moves into electric, and we want to tempt them.”
Buyers of a base-model F-150 Lightning could qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit that would push the price into the low $30,000s, similar to that of a gasoline-fueled truck. That price should help entice buyers who might hesitate to buy a plug-in truck, said Stephanie Brinley, an analyst at the research firm IHS Markit.
“The pricing overlaps enough with an internal-combustion F-150 to make it more palatable for a consumer,” she said.
The pickup-truck category looms as an important area of contention as auto makers race to develop electric vehicles, prodded by tightening environmental regulations and Tesla Inc.’s rapid rise.
While there are no electric pickups from major auto makers on the market today, some are expected to go on sale in the next 18 months, including the F-150 Lightning, as well as entries from Tesla, General Motors Co. , and the startup Rivian Automotive.
GM later this year plans to release an off-road electric Hummer pickup under its GMC brand, with a starting price of around $113,000. GM is also developing an electric version of its Chevrolet Silverado, which competes with the F-150. The company hasn’t given details on prices or a release date.



The pickup-truck category looms as an important area of contention as auto makers race to develop electric vehicles.​PHOTO: CARLOS OSORIO/ASSOCIATED PRESS
Rivian, a California-based startup that has backing from Ford, is expected to launch next month a $75,000 electric pickup designed for buyers who like the outdoors.
Tesla’s futuristic-looking Cybertruck pickup is priced at around $39,900, which would be about the same as the F-150 Lightning. A version of the Cybertruck with two electric motors as well as four-wheel-drive capability similar to that of Ford’s truck costs about $49,900.
Several small startups are developing electric pickups. Ohio-based Lordstown Motors Corp. has said it would begin production later this year of a $52,000 pickup for commercial customers.
Michigan-based Bollinger Motors has set a $125,000 price for a boxy electric pickup truck.
As Ford gets ready to roll out the new electric pickup, the company is still confronting a chip shortage that has led to reduced shifts and temporary shutdowns at many of its U.S. factories this spring.

Technology Alert​Major news in the technology sector.

On Wednesday, Ford said it would idle plants in Michigan and Missouri that make gasoline-versions of the F-150 pickup truck for two weeks starting May 31. It also said it is planning more downtime at several other assembly plants, including its sport-utility vehicle factory in Chicago.
The high price of electric vehicles is a major barrier for customers thinking about making a switch from the gasoline engine. Tesla has broadened its appeal over the years to mass-market buyers by rolling out lower-priced models, helping to spur electric-vehicle sales. The Tesla Model 3, for instance, starts at about $39,500.
Ford executives said they are able to offer the lower starting price in part because the electric F-150 shares many common parts with the gasoline-version, helping it save on development costs.
On Tuesday, President Biden visited Ford’s truck plant in Dearborn, where the new electric F-150 will be built. He used the facility to pitch his $2.3 trillion infrastructure plan, which includes funding for electric vehicles, and test-drove a vehicle that the White House said was the F-150 Lightning.
Ford took the Lightning name from its 1990s line of performance-truck models that used big, gas-guzzling engines. Ford has said the new electric truck will go faster than those models, going from zero to 60 mph in about 4.5 seconds.



Harvey said:


> WOW. Skip ahead to about 15 mins if you want to see the truck. Very cool IMO.



This one's for camp: 

On Wednesday, Ford said it would idle plants in Michigan and Missouri that make gasoline-versions of the F-150 pickup truck for two weeks starting May 31. It also said it is planning more downtime at several other assembly plants, including its sport-utility vehicle factory in Chicago.

The high price of electric vehicles is a major barrier for customers thinking about making a switch from the gasoline engine. Tesla has broadened its appeal over the years to mass-market buyers by rolling out lower-priced models, helping to spur electric-vehicle sales. The Tesla Model 3, for instance, starts at about $39,500.

Ford executives said they are able to offer the lower starting price in part because the electric F-150 shares many common parts with the gasoline-version, helping it save on development costs.

On Tuesday, President Biden visited Ford’s truck plant in Dearborn, where the new electric F-150 will be built. He used the facility to pitch his $2.3 trillion infrastructure plan, which includes funding for electric vehicles, and test-drove a vehicle that the White House said was the F-150 Lightning.

Ford took the Lightning name from its 1990s line of performance-truck models that used big, gas-guzzling engines. Ford has said the new electric truck will go faster than those models, going from zero to 60 mph in about 4.5 seconds.


----------



## DomB

jasonwx said:


> For what it’s worth
> My daughter’s project at work is to design a 6000 space employee parking lot For the new rivian factory in Arizona. I guess they are going full in.


Ok, that is cool, spending some of the seed dough. 

Camp - you got your electric that looks like a truck, and will be 33k entry after tax credit from FORD. When are you buying? Can you even buy a 150 for 33 k?


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Camp - you got your electric that looks like a truck, and will be 33k entry after tax credit from FORD. When are you buying? Can you even buy a 150 for 33 k?


 
Buying??? 2000andNEVER! 
LOL
Whenever I have to buy a truck it's going to be a beater with a heater. My new kick is I want a E350 w/ a diesel running on 33's, all decked out as a snowmobile pullin machine!


----------



## x10003q

The idea that Ford is going to even produce a $39k pickup is laughable. Good luck finding one. 
Tesla pulled the same crap with the Model 3.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> The idea that Ford is going to even produce a $39k pickup is laughable. Good luck finding one.
> Tesla pulled the same crap with the Model 3.



What factors drive up the price? Demand, everybody wants it? Or...

Who gets the "extra" money?


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> The idea that Ford is going to even produce a $39k pickup is laughable. Good luck finding one.
> Tesla pulled the same crap with the Model 3.


Yep, proof is in the pudding. Right now all we're getting is lip service. Wonder why they aren't talking about the 100's of 1000's of trucks that are waiting for chips that they can't ship.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> What factors drive up the price? Demand, everybody wants it? Or...
> 
> Who gets the "extra" money?


Right now it's supply and demand, it's a sellers market. Name your price, and if someone doesn't want to buy it the next guy in the door will. I smh all day long at the prices that metal is going for these days and there's no end to this in sight.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> What factors drive up the price? Demand, everybody wants it? Or...
> 
> Who gets the "extra" money?


People who actually use their trucks for work are buying F250/F350. So the F150 will be for the people who use their trucks for daily drivers and no daily driver wants a stripper truck. The F150 buyers will want more upscale features that they are getting on trucks today. Ford will make sure those Federal and State discounts go to custormers who pay more for the truck.


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> People who actually use their trucks for work are buying F250/F350. So the F150 will be for the people who use their trucks for daily drivers and no daily driver wants a stripper truck. The F150 buyers will want more upscale features that they are getting on trucks today. Ford will make sure those Federal and State discounts go to custormers who pay more for the truck.


Well, that's not the market that Ford is thinking about apparently.









Ford’s Electric F-150 Pickup Aims to Be the Model T of E.V.s (Published 2021)


If it sells well, an electric version of the best-selling vehicle in the U.S. could help accelerate the move to battery-powered transportation.




www.nytimes.com





_" . . .
The F-150 Lightning, in contrast, is aimed at small businesses and corporate customers such as building contractors and mining and construction companies that buy lots of rugged pickups. These buyers typically care not just about the sticker price of a truck but also how much it costs to operate and maintain. Electric vehicles tend to cost more to buy but less to own than conventional cars and trucks because they have fewer parts and electricity is cheaper than gasoline or diesel on a per mile basis.

“There are a lot of big fleets who have been looking for green solutions but haven’t had any answers until now,” William C. Ford Jr., the company’s chairman and a great-grandson of Henry Ford, said in an interview.

The truck is expected to go on sale next spring, with a starting price of $39,974 for a model that can travel 230 miles on a full charge. A version with a range of 300 miles starts at $59,974.

Ford’s chief executive, Jim Farley, told CNBC on Thursday that the company had taken reservations for 20,000 Lightning trucks in less than 12 hours after its Wednesday event.
. . ."_


----------



## Campgottagopee

I hate to be the one to break this to Ford, but ain't no contractor going to be buying a F150 (X is correct in that the F250 is the one) that can only go 200 miles without getting plugged in. Not to mention it will only tow 10,000lbs. The ones buying these will not use them as trucks.

This is all a bunch of hype


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> I hate to be the one to break this to Ford, but ain't no contractor going to be buying a F150 (X is correct in that the F250 is the one) that can only go 200 miles without getting plugged in. Not to mention it will only tow 10,000lbs. The ones buying these will not use them as trucks.
> 
> This is all a bunch of hype


I think Ford will sell a gizzilon of these. Not to contractors true.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> I think Ford will sell a gizzilon of these. Not to contractors true.



Time will certainly tell but I don't think they're going to be readily available. Just like most introductions in the auto world, base models are almost impossible to find, but we have this xxxxxx model that's only xxxxxx more.


----------



## MC2

jasonwx said:


> I think Ford will sell a gizzilon of these. Not to contractors true.


I think they’ll sell a gazillion of them and some contractors will for sure get them. But mostly, it’ll be old white dudes in golf course retirement communities. Those guys never drive anywhere or haul anything, but they love trucks. 10,000 pounds is pretty good towing capacity for most people. And they are AWD off the rip. And they have that front trunk thingy. Scarcity at the beginning will just drive up interest more.

Also, whoever is doing the marketing for this thing is a genius. Everyone in my circles seems to be talking about it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I think there might be a market for these trucks on a road crew. I see lots of 2WD 1/2 ton trucks carrying cones around, etc. They run all day long, that could be the only catch, as I'm not sure how they would do under those conditions.

It will be interesting to see all of this unfold. Part of me feels as if we have the cart in front of the horse with these EV's. It pretty common knowledge that we don't have the infrastructure to handle a massive influx of EV's, just yet.


----------



## jasonwx

The car makers want to transition to EVs quickly because they’re very cheap to make in comparison to the current standard. ICE and transmissions are complex and expensive. 
electric motors are a magnet and some wire. 
batteries are becoming cheap too


----------



## x10003q

MC2 said:


> I think they’ll sell a gazillion of them and some contractors will for sure get them. But mostly, it’ll be old white dudes in golf course retirement communities. Those guys never drive anywhere or haul anything, but they love trucks. 10,000 pounds is pretty good towing capacity for most people. And they are AWD off the rip. And they have that front trunk thingy. Scarcity at the beginning will just drive up interest more.
> 
> Also, whoever is doing the marketing for this thing is a genius. Everyone in my circles seems to be talking about it.


Its not just old white guys.
We have family in Texas and whenever we visit, we take long walks in their respective neighborhoods. Roughly 95% of the driveways have a pristine 1/2 ton (like an F-150) pick-up truck in the driveway. The handful of dirty/labeled pickups are 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickups. Most people in Texas who own 1/2 ton pickups use them for daily drivers.

Maybe if your company has a (fleet) need for 10 F-150s you will be able to get the $39K price. Guys who pay for their own trucks and use them for work are not going to buy F150s. Unless Ford makes an EV F-250/350, they will be selling EV pickups to people who use them as daily drivers. No company purchasing dept is going to buy 1/2 ton pickups if they need the heavier duty models.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> some contractors will for sure get them



Maybe the ones who actually don't build anything? They only come in a 6' box.


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> And they have that front trunk thingy.


Take a sip for the thingy.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> electric motors are a magnet and some wire.



It's impressive how much HP and torque those things can't put out


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> It's impressive how much HP and torque those things can't put out





> Jasonwx "electric motors are a magnet and some wire."


"The nation that controls magnetism will control the universe!” Dick Tracy








Dick Tracy's Origin Traced to Frustration With Crime


EDITOR'S NOTE: Square-jawed and high-principled, Dick Tracy began fighting foes on the nation's comic pages in the '30s, when his creator, Chester Gould, brought him to life. He returns to The Oklaho…



www.oklahoman.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> (fleet)


I hope to god fleet comes back. Right now no manufacturer is/can do it, heck they can't even get units to their dealers. That, in part, is one of the issues driving the used car market beyond sky high. Enterprise and Hertz are now buying cars at auction vs. the manufacturer. I can tell you if they're on a car they will buy it, they don't stop bidding. 

Has anyone noticed the miles on a rental car lately?? It used to be they would get rid of their cars once they hit teenage miles, now they're running them well into the 40's and beyond.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Has anyone noticed the miles on a rental car lately?? It used to be they would get rid of their cars once they hit teenage miles, now they're running them well into the 40's and beyond.


Rented a red Toyota for a week long meeting at Park City in the summer years ago. Women’s US Ski Team was there too. Took the thing into the mountains on a fishing trip. Dirt roads made it turn colors. YMMV.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> Any way you'd clean this up?


Harv - I dont know what that is. I think the WSJ (where I got the article) was telling me that I would like to read the article about the conflict. Whatever views people have, I think we can all agree none of us like conflict. It was a a copy and paste; I think that was the paper suggesting an article. Certainly no message intended


----------



## Harvey

Don't sweat it I think you read something into what I said that I didn't intend. I deleted part of the post that was duplicated and some other stuff I was pretty sure you didn't intend to include. When you copy a whole page sometimes you get some extra stuff too.


----------



## MarzNC

Having never paid attention to the F-150 size category, I didn't know there is a hybrid version. Certainly not cheap. Any idea who is buying the 2021 F-150 hybrid?









2021 Ford F-150 Hybrid PowerBoost Review: Is The Hybrid F-150 Worth It?


You don’t automatically associate the term ‘hybrid’ with pickup trucks like the Ford F-150, but its inclusion in the 2021 lineup demonstrates Ford’s commitment to new alternative-fuel models.




www.forbes.com







https://www.cars.com/articles/we-bought-a-2021-ford-f-150-see-how-much-we-paid-431616/



Full disclosure . . . the only pickup I have experience with is a Ford Ranger. I call it my giant wheelbarrow. Mostly use it to bring mulch to our house. If I'm being thorough, that can mean 15 loads between spring and fall. It's a 1998, standard transmission not automatic. The salesman was working hard to talk my husband into a fully loaded automatic to get it off the lot since we went shopping pretty late in the year. But I saw no reason to pay more for bells and whistles we didn't need. It was never meant to be a daily drive vehicle. Still has less than 30,000 miles.


----------



## Ripitz

MarzNC said:


> Having never paid attention to the F-150 size category, I didn't know there is a hybrid version. Certainly not cheap. Any idea who is buying the 2021 F-150 hybrid?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021 Ford F-150 Hybrid PowerBoost Review: Is The Hybrid F-150 Worth It?
> 
> 
> You don’t automatically associate the term ‘hybrid’ with pickup trucks like the Ford F-150, but its inclusion in the 2021 lineup demonstrates Ford’s commitment to new alternative-fuel models.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cars.com/articles/we-bought-a-2021-ford-f-150-see-how-much-we-paid-431616/
> 
> 
> 
> Full disclosure . . . the only pickup I have experience with is a Ford Ranger. I call it my giant wheelbarrow. Mostly use it to bring mulch to our house. If I'm being thorough, that can mean 15 loads between spring and fall. It's a 1998, standard transmission not automatic. The salesman was working hard to talk my husband into a fully loaded automatic to get it off the lot since we went shopping pretty late in the year. But I saw no reason to pay more for bells and whistles we didn't need. It was never meant to be a daily drive vehicle. Still has less than 30,000 miles.


Gotta see a picture of this wheelbarrow


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> Gotta see a picture of this wheelbarrow



Here you go. I get mulch a few miles from my house. Can't see how dinged up it is from this angle. 

I think of the Ranger as a wheelbarrow because I can drive it relatively close to all the places I spread mulch. Before we got it, we would get a truck load dumped. Getting the mulch from there to where it was needed . . . was a lot of work. I married a bachelor who had a big house on 6 acres. The cleared area around the house is at least 2 acres.




I only used the 4WD once in snow . . . at Massanutten in 2010. There's a story about how I managed to get there before the roads in the area pretty much shut down for a couple days.

Saturday, 8:30 am




Saturday, 1:30pm


----------



## jasonwx

Anyone see the new Ford maverick pickup
Cheap and small. They are going all in


----------



## x10003q

jasonwx said:


> Anyone see the new Ford maverick pickup
> Cheap and small. They are going all i


You cannot get AWD with the hybrid engine. Stuuuupid.


----------



## XTski

MarzNC said:


> Here you go. I get mulch a few miles from my house. Can't see how dinged up it is from this angle.
> 
> I think of the Ranger as a wheelbarrow because I can drive it relatively close to all the places I spread mulch. Before we got it, we would get a truck load dumped. Getting the mulch from there to where it was needed . . . was a lot of work. I married a bachelor who had a big house on 6 acres. The cleared area around the house is at least 2 acres.
> View attachment 9452
> 
> I only used the 4WD once in snow . . . at Massanutten in 2010. There's a story about how I managed to get there before the roads in the area pretty much shut down for a couple days.
> 
> Saturday, 8:30 am
> View attachment 9450
> 
> Saturday, 1:30pm
> View attachment 9453


This is great, a laborer for a commercial builder used to call his car the “ Wheelbarrow “ he would stack anything on top of the trunk, roof, hood wherever he could stack stuff,to haul around the jobsites, he was really loyal to the company and a hard worker, Franklin Adel, been a while thanks for the throwback memory Marz!


----------



## jasonwx

x10003q said:


> You cannot get AWD with the hybrid engine. Stuuuupid.


I bet they will change that


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> You cannot get AWD with the hybrid engine. Stuuuupid.



In a truck I'd prefer 4WD with a high and low range transfer case


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> In a truck I'd prefer 4WD with a high and low range transfer case


That might rip these unibody "trucks" apart.


----------



## Brownski

I noticed it. Looks pretty cool. Not much of a truck but might be just what I need to replace my Pilot when the time comes


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> That might rip these unibody "trucks" apart.



LMAO
True, unibody = not real truck Any-A-Ways


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> I noticed it. Looks pretty cool. Not much of a truck but might be just what I need to replace my Pilot when the time comes


Hmm, even smaller than the Ranger, but still 4 doors.






Ford hints at cheaper and smaller electric pickup truck based on new Maverick


Ford is hinting at a cheaper and smaller electric pickup truck based on the new Ford Maverick and using the...




electrek.co


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> Hmm, even smaller than the Ranger, but still 4 doors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ford hints at cheaper and smaller electric pickup truck based on new Maverick
> 
> 
> Ford is hinting at a cheaper and smaller electric pickup truck based on the new Ford Maverick and using the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 9535


They are competing with the Honda pickup and the new Hyundai pickup


----------



## Brownski

Yeah, I’m frustrated with the general trend of compact trucks morphing into midsized $35k-40k beasts. And they still have compact truck utility and don’t do any better on gas. If the Maverick comes in at $25k and gets 30 mpg I’ll give it consideration even though it’s not much of a truck. If I have to pay 35k or more it’ll be a full size or a minivan where I’m getting more for my money. It’ll be awhile more before I have to decide so my feelings could change on the matter


----------



## gorgonzola

I recently upgraded my 2011 Tacoma as I want to do some longer trips hauling my 6500# travel trailer. It was a very frustrating experience as the truck I want doesn't really exist in my price range.

That graphic is tough to read, if the Maverick has less than a 5' bed it's pretty useless


----------



## Brownski

I believe it’s a 4.5 ft bed and the towing is about 5k lb. I feel your pain btw.


----------



## jasonwx

A vehicle like this would be perfect for my needs it would fit in my garage I can put my mountain bike in the back I put my skis in the back and a few bags of mulch


----------



## gorgonzola

jasonwx said:


> A vehicle like this would be perfect for my needs it would fit in my garage I can put my mountain bike in the back I put my skis in the back and a few bags of mulch


My skis and bike *barely* fit in my 5' tacoma bed, don't think a 4.5 would work


----------



## Ripitz

The VW Rabbit pickup was made in America and got 45+ mpg. Production at the Pennsylvania plant ceased in 1982. 40 years later and the auto industry still can’t deliver anything better?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Bring back the Subaru Baja


----------



## Tjf1967

Ripitz said:


> The VW Rabbit pickup was made in America and got 45+ mpg. Production at the Pennsylvania plant ceased in 1982. 40 years later and the auto industry still can’t deliver anything better?


That was a diesel and would not go over 85 mph and would slow down to 45 on any sort of incline.


----------



## Ripitz

Tjf1967 said:


> That was a diesel and would not go over 85 mph and would slow down to 45 on any sort of incline.


It certainly wasn’t known for speed


----------



## Brownski

All I want is an updated S-10 or even better a modernized Astro van. I would happily pay 35k for an AWD Astro at this point


----------



## Tjf1967

You can get a sienna AWD for 35k


----------



## Brownski

Tjf1967 said:


> You can get a sienna AWD for 35k


Yes, we’ve discussed the Sienna. It’s in the running, even though they’re gonna charge extra for a spare tire.


----------



## Tjf1967

Brownski said:


> Yes, we’ve discussed the Sienna. It’s in the running, even though they’re gonna charge extra for a spare tire.


You just want a mini van that will give you head aches. Spares are overrated now. When was the last time you got a blow out? I carry a 8 dollar plug kit with me now. I have used it


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> All I want is an updated S-10 or even better a modernized Astro van. I would happily pay 35k for an AWD Astro at this point


Maybe sign the petition








Fans Petition GM to Bring Back the Chevy Astro Van


They have a point. If the Hummer is back, why not this versatile rear- or all-wheel-drive van that Chevrolet built from 1985 to 2005? With cupholders this time?




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## Brownski

I’ve signed the petition (it’s not gonna happen though) and I have a plug kit too. Honestly the Sienna is probably in the lead in my mind but we do find ourselves missing the Colorado occasionally


----------



## gorgonzola

don't forget the ford explorer sport-trac


----------



## MarzNC

Tjf1967 said:


> You can get a sienna AWD for 35k


My friend got a Hybrid Sienna AWD a few months ago and is pretty happy with it. Her previous minivan was a Sienna she drove for 10 years. Her kids are adults now but she does a lot of DIY stuff. Doesn't have an interest in a pickup as a day-to-day vehicle in Boston.


----------



## MarzNC

gorgonzola said:


> My skis and bike *barely* fit in my 5' tacoma bed, don't think a 4.5 would work


Found a reference . . . I could fit 1 yard of mulch in a 4.5 bed if the mulch was "heaped." The Nissan Frontier comes with that short a bed.









How Many Yards of Mulch in a Pickup Truck? | DualLiner Truck Bed Liner - Ford, Chevy, Dodge & GMC Bedliners


You’re ready to order your mulch for Spring landscaping and you don’t know how much to order. The mulch supplier says that you can only order by the yard. You think to yourself, well I have a front yard and a back yard. Is that 2 yards? No, they’re referring to cubic yards. So you’re wondering...




www.dualliner.com


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Bring back the Subaru Baja


I may have said this before but I bet if Subaru announced a limited run of 5,000 Brats in its original configuration- no frills two seater with a little bit more suspension then normal - they could sell them all on a pre-order at frontline price. I bet a smart engineer could figure out how to do it on the same line that produces Imprezas and/or Crosstreks without too much hassle


----------



## jasonwx

Tjf1967 said:


> You just want a mini van that will give you head aches. Spares are overrated now. When was the last time you got a blow out? I carry a 8 dollar plug kit with me now. I have used it


Tore my side wall in jersey city 2 weeks ago
Real happy I had a spare


----------



## Ripitz

Bring back the Eagle


----------



## gorgonzola

Ha! A buddy of mine had an AMC eagle in high school, man did we beat the piss out of that thing in the jersey pines and sand pits!


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Tore my side wall in jersey city 2 weeks ago
> Real happy I had a spare



With ya on that

No way would I go anywhere without a spare tire for truck or trailer or whatever


----------



## DomB

x10003q said:


> You cannot get AWD with the hybrid engine. Stuuuupid.


Haven't looked but this may not be completely accurate. For many hybrids, they use the small electric motor to send power to the backwheels, which in most cases (except compared for example to a subaru) gives you more torque to backwheels than most AWDs.


----------



## DomB

BTW on Rivian update - they have pushed their 'Launch' early editions way back. The trucks, which are coming first have some deliveries in July, but that seems not to be for 'normal' holders, more like friends and family people. More likely from Late October to June. 

I have the R1s (suv) res, so I am guessing that is like December through August of next year. No big deal for me, as my old cars work fine. I'd like my next vehicle to be EV, but at some point I have to replace the family car with is an '11 CRV (space factor with two kids and a covid dog). 

Some people are complaining. I guess I don't care that much because it just delays how quickly i 'have' to spend money.


----------



## DomB

DomB said:


> BTW on Rivian update - they have pushed their 'Launch' early editions way back. The trucks, which are coming first have some deliveries in July, but that seems not to be for 'normal' holders, more like friends and family people. More likely from Late October to June.
> 
> I have the R1s (suv) res, so I am guessing that is like December through August of next year. No big deal for me, as my old cars work fine. I'd like my next vehicle to be EV, but at some point I have to replace the family car with is an '11 CRV (space factor with two kids and a covid dog).
> 
> Some people are complaining. I guess I don't care that much because it just delays how quickly i 'have' to spend money.


Though, one note, the current plan for next season is Gore, which is 4 hours, on most weekends. My CRV has never had an issue beyond tires, oil change, scheduled 'big things' (30/70/100 tune ups I think but I don't even know), and air filters. 

In the back of my mind I am a little concerned about winter long drives with an 10-11 year old car, but so far the thing has been so dependable. I don't see alarming corrosion, but I do drive it on the beach, which makes me hope It can handle the long haul winter trips. The car has only performed in a way to give me confidence. 

OTOH, I have geico that comes with roadside assistance, I travel with the prudent stuff to have in winder (blankets, shovel, basic kit, etc), and I will reup my triple AAA.


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> I am a little concerned about winter long drives


Too bad the ski trains are a thing of the past. From what I’ve read they were a big rolling party. You can take the Metro North Harlem Line to Thunder Ridge but I don’t think that’s quite the same experience as back in the day.

Everything is delayed these days. We are accustomed to having everything right here right now. I hope the Rivian is worth the wait. It certainly is a good looking machine.


----------



## x10003q

DomB said:


> Haven't looked but this may not be completely accurate. For many hybrids, they use the small electric motor to send power to the backwheels, which in most cases (except compared for example to a subaru) gives you more torque to backwheels than most AWDs.


Maybe look into it. Wait, I'll do it for you. 

Not available.


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> Too bad the ski trains are a thing of the past. From what I’ve read they were a big rolling party. You can take the Metro North Harlem Line to Thunder Ridge but I don’t think that’s quite the same experience as back in the day.


I tried to figure out the train to Rutland for my wife and kid when we were living in NYC. It would have been a logistical nightmare and still more money and way more time than renting a car and driving. It all sounds good until you actually think about just the first leg of the trip - maneuvering 3 sets of equipment from your apartment to the track in Penn Station during rush hour.
The train leaves around 4:30pm on Friday and gets into Rutland around 11:20pm. Then you have to hope your ride to your lodge at Killington is at the train station. If you are lucky, you will be in your room by midnight, 9 hours later.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> Haven't looked but this may not be completely accurate. For many hybrids, they use the small electric motor to send power to the backwheels, which in most cases (except compared for example to a subaru) gives you more torque to backwheels than most AWDs.


I assumed the comment was only for the little Ford pickup that was being discussed at the time.

Have to say that as someone who lives in the southeast and not in the mountains, I don't need AWD. Only wanted AWD on the new SUV because I do drive up to the northeast and ski mountains in the southeast when there is snow on the roads. Plus I have vague thoughts of spending a month or so in a house in SLC in the not too distant future. Or taking a little extra time to drive out to the Rockies instead of flying and then renting a car.

The amount of powder that the RAV4 Prime has is pretty fun. Haven't been in a situation where the AWD was needed yet. There is a second electric motor for the rear wheels. Using the Sport Mode for going up hills is noticeably different than Eco or Normal mode.


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> Too bad the ski trains are a thing of the past. From what I’ve read they were a big rolling party. You can take the Metro North Harlem Line to Thunder Ridge but I don’t think that’s quite the same experience as back in the day.


From Boston, can take the train for a day trip to Wachusett on weekends. There are shuttle buses from the train station to finish getting to the slopes.


----------



## Ripitz

MarzNC said:


> I don't need AWD


When living in snow country I drove a Chevy Chevette, Chevy Celebrity, Ford Taurus, 1979 Lincoln Continental, OBS Chevy 1 ton pickup and a 1983 Mercedes 300SD with no issues. All were 2WD and had kick ass snow tires, some were studded. The only time I got stuck was when I flew into an unplowed parking lot to do doughnuts with the pickup. The snow was so deep it lifted the truck off the ground. The only time I crashed due to traction was in a 1989 full size GMC Jimmy on my way to Gore in 4WD because I was driving too fast in the snow. Just because you have 4WD it doesn’t mean you have 4WStop. 4WD and AWD is great but IMO far from mandatory. Tires are everything. Like Pirelli says, “Power is nothing without controll.”


----------



## Sbob

The Best Tire Chains for Snow in 2022


We're here to recommend the best tire chains for snow to help you stay safe — and get where you need to go when the roads and weather demand it.




gearjunkie.com




Cheaper than all wheel drive. 
My road was horrible this year, used them almost every day for weeks.


----------



## DomB

x10003q said:


> Maybe look into it. Wait, I'll do it for you.
> 
> Not available.


Incorrect, check w Marz. That was old research i did which went into that tech she talks about. See also highlander.


----------



## x10003q

DomB said:


> Incorrect, check w Marz. That was old research i did which went into that tech she talks about. See also highlander.


Which Ford dealer has the ability to order you an AWD hybrid Ford Maverick today? This is not a trick question. 

Answer: None


----------



## Brownski

Let me help here.

X is correct. The conversation was about the Ford Maverick, which apparently isn’t initially offering awd on the hybrid.

Dom is talking about hybrids in general and is correct that there are in fact hybrids offered by some companies which have awd but of course the discussion had shifted to the Maverick so he was incorrect.

The info that Marz offered seems to be correct and is interesting but she never implied that it applied to the Maverick.

There we go. All good.


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> All good


Brownski is correct


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> Let me help here.
> 
> X is correct. The conversation was about the Ford Maverick, which apparently isn’t initially offering awd on the hybrid.
> 
> Dom is talking about hybrids in general and is correct that there are in fact hybrids offered by some companies which have awd but of course the discussion had shifted to the Maverick so he was incorrect.
> 
> The info that Marz offered seems to be correct and is interesting but she never implied that it applied to the Maverick.
> 
> There we go. All good.


Thank you. I was referring to Jason's comments about the Ford Maverick.


----------



## Tjf1967

x10003q said:


> Thank you. I was referring to Jason's comments about the Ford Maverick.
> View attachment 9549


I knew what you were referring to.


----------



## tirolski

Got a lot of data?
Better cool it cheaply, efficiently, without a lot of emissions.








Startups Race Microsoft to Find Better Ways to Cool Data Centers


Nonconducting liquids show promise in replacing expensive and wasteful air conditioning.




www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Ripitz

Ram Is Coming After Ford, Rivian and Tesla With an Electric Pickup


Ram may be last to the EV pickup party. But will they do it best?




www.gearpatrol.com


----------



## tirolski

Meanwhile in Oxford, down south,








Electric Fast-Charging Retail Rate Now Offered by Oxford Utilities - HottyToddy


Earlier this week, the Oxford Board of Aldermen approved the addition of an electric vehicle charging (EVC) retail rate to the Oxford Utilities resale rate schedule.




www.hottytoddy.com


----------



## Ripitz

In the US, EVs have 60-68% less lifetime GHG emissions then ICEs. As our power grid decarbonizes this number will improve.








Study dispels myth that electric cars pollute as much as gas-powered cars due to 'dirty' grid — Electrek


A new study dispels the persistent myth that electric cars pollute just as much as gas-powered cars because they charge on a “dirty” electric grid, and mining for battery materials is polluting.




apple.news


----------



## gorgonzola

I work with a firefighter and he had just completed training on EV response, some scary shit


----------



## MarzNC

gorgonzola said:


> I work with a firefighter and he had just completed training on EV response, some scary shit


Heard something about that recently, but it was a very short report. Found these articles doing a quick look.









Federal regulators warn of risks to firefighters from electrical vehicle fires


Lithium-ion batteries pose a unique threat, and most first responders are not prepared.




www.nbcnews.com













In Case of Electric-Car Fire, Half of Fire Departments Are Unprepared


NTSB study says U.S. firefighters need different techniques for fires in battery-carrying EVs than standard gas vehicles, but there's no reason for alarm.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## Harvey

Anyone seen the TV commercial electric F150 where the power goes out and they run the house off the truck?

I know it's a commercial, but if I was running my house off my truck in a power failure, I'd be using candles and trying to keep my refrigerator cool.

How long can a fully charged truck run the average home?


----------



## Brownski

I don’t think I’d want to be stranded by running down my EV’s battery. I could see running a hybrid like a big generator in a casual blackout situation where I wasn’t worried about a gas shortage.


----------



## Sbob

Lake Oroville’s hydroelectric powerplant goes offline


OROVILLE, Calif. (KTXL) — The hydroelectric powerplant at Lake Oroville has been taken offline after the lake reached historic lows Thursday. This is the first time the Edward Hyatt Power Plant has…




fox40.com





Ahhhhhhh


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> I don’t think I’d want to be stranded by running down my EV’s battery. I could see running a hybrid like a big generator in a casual blackout situation where I wasn’t worried about a gas shortage.


I vaguely remember people in Texas charging their cell phones in a hybrid or EV during a very bad ice storm last winter. Or maybe they spent a bit of time in the car to warm up.


----------



## G.ski

Sbob said:


> Lake Oroville’s hydroelectric powerplant goes offline
> 
> 
> OROVILLE, Calif. (KTXL) — The hydroelectric powerplant at Lake Oroville has been taken offline after the lake reached historic lows Thursday. This is the first time the Edward Hyatt Power Plant has…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fox40.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhhhhhh


California is screwed.

Same reservoir that was too full 2 years ago and almost failed.


----------



## jasonwx

G.ski said:


> California is screwed.
> 
> Same reservoir that was too full 2 years ago and almost failed.


my buddy lives in sacramento...he says it's like the end of times


----------



## Harvey

The smoke would really get me down. How bad is it in Sac?


----------



## tirolski

Cousin lives in Redding and the smoke is bad there.








Dixie Fire smoke brings poor air quality to Shasta County. What to know for this weekend


Shasta County will likely get a big dose of choking smoke and pollution from the Dixie Fire when winds switch more to the west on Friday.



www.redding.com




PG&E may be in trouble again.








As Dixie Fire rages in Northern California, questions for PG&E mount


In a report filed with the CPUC, PG&E said a tree was found leaning into one of its power lines in the area of where the Dixie Fire started.



www.redding.com


----------



## jasonwx

Harvey said:


> The smoke would really get me down. How bad is it in Sac?


----------



## Harvey

jasonwx said:


> View attachment 9950


That looks like it did here on the worst day a few weeks ago.

When my daughter saw it after her practice she asked "is that the sun or the moon?"


----------



## G.ski

That's bad.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Car And Driver Not Happy With Cost Of Tesla Model 3 Maintenance


The publication has been running a Model 3 for nearly 40,000 miles, but it hasn’t found the vehicle as cheap to maintain as expected.




insideevs.com


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Cousin lives in Redding and the smoke is bad there.
> 
> PG&E may be in trouble again.


Someone’s drone was out when the fire started and it hindered air efforts to stop the fire early, allegedly.








Investigation into Dixie Fire drone begins


A drone prevented fire crews from quickly putting out the Dixie Fire when it first started on July 13th. Now the Butte County District Attorney's Office is looking into whose drone that was.




krcrtv.com






https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21039022/1415-usavpge-210806.pdf


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> WTF is bitcoin mining and why does it require electricity?
> 
> mm


mm, 
The new SEC chairman, Gensler, taught MIT Open CourseWare classes bout it a bit ago, if ya want to learn more.





Session 1: Introduction | Blockchain and Money | Sloan School of Management | MIT OpenCourseWare


MIT OpenCourseWare is a web based publication of virtually all MIT course content. OCW is open and available to the world and is a permanent MIT activity



ocw.mit.edu


----------



## Ripitz

Resistance is futile








When even Dodge is planning an EV, internal combustion's days are numbered — Autoblog


This anecdote will date me: During the 1979 oil crisis, I was filling up my VW one day when an old guy on the opposite pump began bitterly cursing about having to pay $1.50 a gallon for gasoline — $5.60 in today’s money. He probably expected to hear a “damn right, mister,” but I nodded toward my...




apple.news


----------



## Harvey

_"Maybe it’s pointless to try to convince skeptics."_

No need to. If EVs turn out to be better, most people will switch. We're going to find out soon I think.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> If EVs turn out to be better, most people will switch.


Agree
Like when shaped skis first came out, I thought they were stupid as hell and were only for people who didn't know how to ski. I felt that way until I tried a pair. Like skis, I'll most likely be one of the last to move to an EV and I'm ok with that.


----------



## Harvey

Might be sooner for me. Mrs has wanted an electric car forever. 

When we bought that land she said "ok if I can have an electric car." I kind of weaseled it back then with a prius, but now she's like "DUDE. FORD has a pickup for god sakes, I can have an electric!"

If they can get the range up (way up) it would be very convenient to charge at home. Start every day full.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Might be sooner for me. Mrs has wanted an electric car forever.


Ain't nobody happy if mamma ain't happy.
Better sign up now, Harv.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Might be sooner for me. Mrs has wanted an electric car forever.
> 
> When we bought that land she said "ok if I can have an electric car." I kind of weaseled it back then with a prius, but now she's like "DUDE. FORD has a pickup for god sakes, I can have an electric!"
> 
> If they can get the range up (way up) it would be very convenient to charge at home. Start every day full.


Best combination seems to be an all-electric for driving near home plus a hybrid as the second car that can be used for longer trips.

What EV range do you need?

My ski buddy and his wife from Cleveland are heading to Auburn this week to get her a RAV4 Prime from Fox Toyota. She was very thorough. They came for a visit to my house a couple months ago to have an extended test drive of mine.


----------



## MarzNC

Just put another 2000 miles on my RAV4 Prime driving up to Lake Placid and back. For a long trip with a lot of highway driving, getting a solid 40 mph as a hybrid. It's really nice to only put in 10 gallons and have a hybrid range of close to 450 miles.

I'm finally getting in the habit of punching the button to start out in HV mode on trips so that I can keep the EV charge up. No point to bring the charging cable. Can charge while driving up to around 35 miles EV, but of course that drops the HV gas mileage a bit. Mostly driving in ECO mode while in HV. Have found that there is plenty of power in NORMAL mode for hilly terrain in terms of keep up the set speed on cruise control on a long uphill. Meaning no need for SPORT mode.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> What EV range do you need?



Hahahahaha. Good question. I want an unrealistic amount. 750 miles in winter. 

400 would mean I could day trip Jay from our place in the Adk with 50 miles of safety.

I want a pickup so I can safari through western NY and sleep in it.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Hahahahaha. Good question. I want an unrealistic amount. 750 miles in winter.
> 
> 400 would mean I could day trip Jay from our place in the Adk with 50 miles of safety.
> 
> I want a pickup so I can safari through western NY and sleep in it.


Yep, you'll be waiting for a while.  

My friend who has an older Tesla has managed to drive from NC to Lake Placid in the winter a few times. His daughter started at North Country School last year. Two more years to go. Meaning he drives most, if not all, the way in one day. He obviously has to stop to charge a few times. I think his range is not quite 300 miles in optimal weather and closer to 200 on a cold winter day. Definitely helps that there is a Tesla charging station in LP now. Before it was a stretch to charge up at Exit 25 on the Northway and then get back there without charging again.

For now, a Plug-in Hybrid was as far I was willing to go for EV capability. Only need about one gas fillup (10 gal) over 3-4 weeks when I'm home. Used to gas up the minivan once a week (17-18 gallons) when I was being a chauffeur for my daughter. Her K-6 school was about 15 min away.


----------



## Warp daddy

Campgottagopee said:


> Ain't nobody happy if mamma ain't happy.
> Better sign up now, Harv.


Damn straight most powerful phrase in the English language " Helluva idea honey wish i thought of it myself " ?


----------



## XTski

yeah ,hell with ev’s for skiers they are for the geezers , why spend so much and then talk about great mileage doesn’t make sense, over paying to “save gas”


----------



## Ripitz

^^Thank you for editing the unamerican comment. Being innovative is American. We used to ride around on horses and burn whale oil. Gas was a huge mistake. The first Diesel ran on peanut oil and the first Model T’s could burn ethanol. We’d be better off if we had stuck with that. Domestically produced renewables is the path forward. Burning fossil fuels is caveman shit.


----------



## XTski

Ripitz said:


> That’s a ridiculous thing to say and you know it. Being innovative is American. We used to ride around on horses and burn whale oil. Gas was a huge mistake. The first Diesel ran on peanut oil and the first Model T’s could burn ethanol. We’d be better off if we had stuck with that. Domestically produced renewables is the path forward. Burning fossil fuels is caveman shit


Never said Americans aren’t innovative, just talking about good gas mileage after spending so much on a vehicle just doesn’t make sense , some people are clueless 
in time when they are built better and cost less then they will make sense 
for now they are for geezers and you make me think of tree huggers


----------



## Harvey

XTski said:


> yeah ,hell with ev’s for skiers they are for the geezers , why spend so much and then talk about great mileage doesn’t make sense, over paying to “save gas” is un American


 
Since when is innovation unamerican? I bet you a donut you're driving an ev in the next 20 years.

Like I said upthread if it makes sense, most will go for it.


----------



## Harvey

XTski said:


> in time when they are built better and cost less then they will make sense



Agree, mostly. 

The build quality is fine IMO, or at least good enough. (I'd wager that every most every ev made is better than any Chrysler made in the 70s.)

There has to be bigger volume to bring the cost down and a responsible way to mine, recycle and dispose of the batteries.


----------



## Brownski

I Think I understood what was meant. If I buy a car for 23k and spend 2k a year on gas and keep it for 5 years that is 33k, not including maintenance obviously. So spending 50k on an EV doesn’t make economic sense.


----------



## Ripitz

XTski said:


> you make me think of tree huggers


You got me there. I’ve definitely hugged a few trees. (In response to your deleted unamerican comment) You make me think of the asshole in a pickup truck who rolled coal while I was riding my bike the other day. I could tell he was American by the flag he was flying in the back.


----------



## XTski

The main point was they are not good for skiers imo as they can loose more then half the battery range in the cold weather , along with mountain driving you have to drive like a geezer , producing those cars now puts off more polution then making gas cars, like everything, in time they will get better


----------



## Ripitz

The real price of a gallon of gas is much more than what you pay at the pump.


----------



## XTski

Ripitz said:


> The real price of a gallon of gas is much more than what you pay at the pump.


They have to phase it out over time, what I would like to see is have electric leaf blowers that can complete with gas, cars have a long way to go


----------



## Ripitz

I have both for work and I never use the gasser


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Burning fossil fuels is caveman shit.


Thinking oil comes from old fossils is caveman thinkin, not that’s there’s anything wrong with caveman thinkin.


----------



## XTski

Ripitz said:


> I have both for work and I never use the gasser
> View attachment 10246


Damn I have not seen a backpack version, so many people complain about the noise of the gassers, it will probably be a while until large established private landscapers use them ( not cost effective to switch them out) but I imagine some government properties etc might start using them


----------



## Sbob




----------



## tirolski

Sbob said:


> View attachment 10247


Yup. 
Just grind em up and blow with the blades of a mower, makes great mulches.
Heard ya could retrofit leaf blowers into ghost busting devices, allegedly, so there’s that.


----------



## Campgottagopee

XTski said:


> They have to phase it out over time, what I would like to see is have electric leaf blowers that can complete with gas, cars have a long way to go


I just replaced my gas leaf blower with a battery powered one. So far it's as good as my gasser. I don't use it for leafs rather for cleaning out my shop, blowing off my tractor after mowing and blowing the snow off my deck. Battery powered tools (saws, drills, grinders, impacts, etc) are the new norm. That said, I totally agree with you that cars/trucks have a long way to go before they get to that level. When they do I'll be interested. Right now I'm watching from the bench. Just like I did in college playing baseball.


----------



## Joneski73

Campgottagopee said:


> I just replaced my gas leaf blower with a battery powered one. So far it's as good as my gasser. I don't use it for leafs rather for cleaning out my shop, blowing off my tractor after mowing and blowing the snow off my deck. Battery powered tools (saws, drills, grinders, impacts, etc) are the new norm. That said, I totally agree with you that cars/trucks have a long way to go before they get to that level. When they do I'll be interested. Right now I'm watching from the bench. Just like I did in college playing baseball.


I recently purchased a Dewalt 20v 7 1/4” circular saw with an 8 amp hour battery for work. I noticed the other day that my corded one is buried in the back of my trailer. So there’s that.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

We remodeled the kitchen last year. The contractor had a battery powered miter saw and a tile saw. I never saw him plug anything in.
Electric cars are already equal or better than gas cars in everything except range. When btteries get a little cheaper (and the salvage value increases), and the charging infrastructure builds out, everyone will want one. Except me. I'm not getting one until they have 3 pedals.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> We remodeled the kitchen last year. The contractor had a battery powered miter saw and a tile saw. I never saw him plug anything in.
> Electric cars are already equal or better than gas cars in everything except range. When btteries get a little cheaper (and the salvage value increases), and the charging infrastructure builds out, everyone will want one. Except me. I'm not getting one until they have 3 pedals.
> 
> mm





Milo Maltbie said:


> We remodeled the kitchen last year. The contractor had a battery powered miter saw and a tile saw. I never saw him plug anything in.
> Electric cars are already equal or better than gas cars in everything except range. When btteries get a little cheaper (and the salvage value increases), and the charging infrastructure builds out, everyone will want one. Except me. I'm not getting one until they have 3 pedals.
> 
> mm


They aren't even close. They aren't competitively priced and residual values stink.


----------



## Ripitz

Teslas hold their value. Even a wrecked one is worth money.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Teslas hold their value. Even a wrecked one is worth money.


Yes. Resale is good but their lease blows. Residual values stink on them.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> They aren't even close. They aren't competitively priced and residual values stink.


For now, electric cars are for early adopters who want the latest and greatest. Once the infrastructure is built out enough that everyone gets over range anxiety residual values will be better than gas cars. New technology is always impossible until it is inevitable. 

mm


----------



## Brownski

When I see privately owned gas stations installing chargers to earn money selling electricity I’ll start to believe


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> When I see privately owned gas stations installing chargers to earn money selling electricity I’ll start to believe


They make more money selling Red Bull and Slim Jims


----------



## tirolski

Went to a friend's garage recently who has a 50 year old welder with 250 Amp DC output.
Discussed the possibility of getting a dang plug to be able to charge electric vehicles batteries..
Just get a trailer for the bitch, some gas to run it and the problem with EV range is solved.
Ya could also make money doing welding jobs on the side.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> They make more money selling Red Bull and Slim Jims


I love Slim Jims 
Always have a few in my pocket during hunting season.


----------



## Tjf1967

Brownski said:


> When I see privately owned gas stations installing chargers to earn money selling electricity I’ll start to believe


Fot people like you and I we wont need them but for emergencies. Drive around all day. Put a couple hundred miles them. Come home plug them in and ready to go in the morning.


----------



## Tjf1967

tirolski said:


> Went to a friend's garage recently who has a 50 year old welder with 250 Amp DC output.
> Discussed the possibility of getting a dang plug to be able to charge electric vehicles batteries..
> Just get a trailer for the bitch, some gas to run it and the problem with EV range is solved.
> Ya could also make money doing welding jobs on the side.


Thaw a couple frozen house pipes.. Multiple revenue streams.


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> They make more money selling Red Bull and Slim Jims


Yeah but imagine how many more they would sell to people hanging around for half an hour, waiting for enough charge to get home.


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> Yeah but imagine how many more they would sell to people hanging around for half an hour, waiting for enough charge to get home.


If parking is tight they are not going to waste spaces on charging sites. The name of the game is get people in and out. If potential customers do not see a place to park, they will not pull in to the lot.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> When I see privately owned gas stations installing chargers to earn money selling electricity I’ll start to believe


Once this happens


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Yeah but imagine how many more they would sell to people hanging around for half an hour, waiting for enough charge to get home.


This will certainly add a lot of time to a trip. I'm gonna fill up my big V8 truck and hammer down.


----------



## Ripitz

I don’t really see them going in at fuel stops. Maybe a few where the air compressor and vacuums are. I see them going in at shopping centers and municipal lots. Genesis has wireless charging now. Lucid Air charges at 20 miles per minute. New developments are happening very quickly. All of this charging and range anxiety will be a non issue very soon. Autonomous VTOL vehicles will be here before you know it.


----------



## Ripitz

It will be interesting to see how fuel taxes will be collected from EVs. Currently it looks like they aren’t subject to any transportation taxes. When I ran waste veggie oil in my Greasecar, by law, I was supposed to report my mileage and pay accordingly. That never happened. My understanding was that it is required but there was no mechanism in place to collect, let alone enforce. I assume it would be paid voluntarily through NYS Use tax, which no one does. Until we take to the air, someone’s got to pay for all of these roads. Would rather not see tolls everywhere. I’m sure Uncle Sam will be happy to plug into your car and see how far you’ve gone.


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> The real price of a gallon of gas is much more than what you pay at the pump.



How can one gallon of gas produce 20 pounds of CO2?

Like this:



https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/contentincludes/co2_inc.htm


----------



## tirolski

Yup but YMMV as they put alcohol init.
At least they got the lead out.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Yeah but imagine how many more they would sell to people hanging around for half an hour, waiting for enough charge to get home.





x10003q said:


> If parking is tight they are not going to waste spaces on charging sites. The name of the game is get people in and out. If potential customers do not see a place to park, they will not pull in to the lot.


Telsa has partnered with Sheetz and Stewarts for their proprietary charging stations. At the larger Sheetz stations I've seen in VA or PA, there are 8 chargers. Four are marked for 10-min use only. The other 4 can be used for the 30-min full charge time. Presumably those people are more likely to stop inside and spend a little money while they wait. Can't remember how many stations are at the Stewarts off the Northway at Exit 25, either two or four. Met up with my NC friend there when we drove two cars to Lake Placid in June 2020.

The Tesla chargers in Lake Placid are in the parking lot of the shopping center that has Price Chopper. I didn't get close enough to see how many or if they have any marked as 10-min.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> Yeah but imagine how many more they would sell to people hanging around for half an hour, waiting for enough charge to get home.


Big truck stops have lots of different stuff for sale to the truckers when they hang around waitin, just saying. 
The plug-in charges em up enough until they get home, allegedly.


----------



## tirolski

Some big machines underground are doing this.








 Hundreds of heavy equipment patents help create Caterpillar’s R1700 XE


Caterpillar has chosen to make its new R1700 XE the company’s first battery electric platform while using fast, onboard charging




www.equipmentjournal.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Chip Shortage Could Slow Electric Vehicle Rollouts


And no one is certain how long the shortage will last




www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## Harvey

Don't regular cars have chips? I think the chip shortage is messing with a lot of things, beyond cars?


----------



## tirolski

They started putting chips in cars in the late 70s and 80s. So Yup.
Wonderpony, ya know of any good horses for sale?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Don't regular cars have chips? I think the chip shortage is messing with a lot of things, beyond cars?


Yes and yes
I didn't know how bad it would effect EV's so I looked it up real quick. This thing is going to last for a few years. Wait until the battery shortage hits.
I'm staying way far away from EV's


----------



## XTski

Campgottagopee said:


> Yes and yes
> I didn't know how bad it would effect EV's so I looked it up real quick. This thing is going to last for a few years. Wait until the battery shortage hits.
> I'm staying way far away from EV's


That’s another good reason to wait on EV’s it’s amazing the people throwing their money away in the name of saving gas, Tesla is a whole other story, those people are performace car buyers , they don’t brag about saving gas


----------



## Harvey

I always assumed Teslas were two seaters because that was the easiest place to start. Small people/cargo area makes room for batteries and cuts down on cargo weight. Seems like a mini-van might be that last EV you'd see.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Seems like a mini-van might be that last EV you'd see.


Another reason I’m on the fence


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> I want a pickup so I can safari through western NY and sleep in it.


Why don’t you buy a gas pickup for yourself and an EV for your wife?


----------



## jasonwx

Buddy just got his model 3
Loves it
I know a few pp with Tesla’s and they all love them


----------



## Campgottagopee

Rivian files for IPO, seeking about $80 billion valuation


The automaker said the size and price range for the proposed offering have not yet been determined.




www.autonews.com


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> How can one gallon of gas produce 20 pounds of CO2?
> 
> Like this:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/contentincludes/co2_inc.htm


A gallon of gas also makes water when it oxidizes.

_One gallon of gasoline produces about *217.5 moles of water*. Each mole of water has a weight of 18 grams. So the burning of one gallon of gasoline produces 3,914.6 grams of water. This is equal to* 8.6 pounds of water*, which has a volume of *1.0*33 *gallons*._

Plants make oxygen from carbon dioxide which they need. They also need water to live.
Plants lives matter.
Ya can eat some of them cause they taste good and are good for ya and the other things that eat em to live..


----------



## XTski

Campgottagopee said:


> Rivian files for IPO, seeking about $80 billion valuation
> 
> 
> The automaker said the size and price range for the proposed offering have not yet been determined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.autonews.com


makes sense that manufacturer’s that didn’t start with gas cars will be the future,


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> A gallon of gas also makes water when it oxidizes.
> 
> _One gallon of gasoline produces about *217.5 moles of water*. Each mole of water has a weight of 18 grams. So the burning of one gallon of gasoline produces 3,914.6 grams of water. This is equal to* 8.6 pounds of water*, which has a volume of *1.0*33 *gallons*._
> 
> Plants make oxygen from carbon dioxide which they need. They also need water to live.
> Plants lives matter.
> Ya can eat some of them cause they taste good and are good for ya and the other things that eat em to live..


Plants and keepin dirt healthy for the win.


----------



## Campgottagopee

U.S. identifies 12th Tesla assisted-systems car crash involving emergency vehicle


The crash occurred in Orlando, Fla., on Saturday, NHTSA said. The agency sent Tesla an 11-page letter with questions, dated Tuesday, as part of its investigation.




www.autonews.com


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> Plants and keepin dirt healthy for the win.


Thanks for the link!


----------



## Ripitz

Here is a slow pitch for you petrolheads








Electric Vehicles Powerless During Hurricanes — Forbes


Almost a week after Hurricane Ida, 640,000 customers, or more than one quarter of Louisiana households, are still without power and unable to recharge any electric vehicles they might own.




apple.news


----------



## Harvey

I just got back from the shop where my man Al fixed my cars. He's a tow guy for the police. The street is all lined up with cars that are totalled from floods. He said once a car is submerged the insurance company totals it and sells the parts.

I thought I'd heard people say they spent $XXXX and got there flooded cars back on the road? Draining all the fluids, soaking in kero etc.

Also are electric cars just as totalled by going under water? lol

I'd like to start an "Ask @Campgottagopee" thread, for car questions. ?


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Also are electric cars just as totalled by going under water? lol


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I thought I'd heard people say they spent $XXXX and got there flooded cars back on the road? Draining all the fluids, soaking in kero etc.


 Imo, it depends on the money as it's a roll of the dice if the car will be a good one or not. I'd say thirty cents on a dollar. 
Personally I'd run far away from it. Take the money and run


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


>


The sealed battery and drivetrain seems like a good thing if it's not too costly.

Great that it might not get damaged, but not sure that should be an advertised feature.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


>


Undercoat your computer then go sink it. Let me know how you make out.


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> I Think I understood what was meant. If I buy a car for 23k and spend 2k a year on gas and keep it for 5 years that is 33k, not including maintenance obviously. So spending 50k on an EV doesn’t make economic sense.


Here comes a $24k electric car








VW unveils new ID concept that previews its upcoming ~$24,000 electric car — Electrek


VW unveiled today its new ID Life electric car concept at the IAA Mobility show in Munich.




apple.news


----------



## Brownski

Listen, I am encouraged that somebody is working on it but that article is full of illustrations and "we're gonna"s- nothing substantive. There's not even a concept car. I doubt Tesla's will end up being as cheap as they project and I doubt VW's even happens. They say it'll be available maybe in 2025, which is far enough off that they know nobody will remember this by then. Let's be honest, this thread has been political boosterism from the start. That's fine and all but I remain skeptical, both that EVs are the answer to our problems and that the current crop of EVs are capable of replacing my Subaru, much less my Honda Pilot. And nobody has answered the questions about the electrical grid or the long term disposal/ recycling of the batteries with anything but happy talk.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> this thread has been political boosterism from the start.


I guess what I said at the end of the new normal thread may be right. We can't discuss anything of importance here.

Quote me the politics and I'll take some action.


----------



## XTski

Ripitz said:


> Here comes a $24k electric car
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VW unveils new ID concept that previews its upcoming ~$24,000 electric car — Electrek
> 
> 
> VW unveiled today its new ID Life electric car concept at the IAA Mobility show in Munich.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Damn and look where it’s made? They will probably build them out of all their garbage, things on this site do get challenged etc but it’s kept pretty cool, it good that this site is inclusive so we get the full spectrum of “ opinions “ that last picture of Ted’s though shit like that balance things out, brought back memories of Clays 
paddle on


----------



## Ripitz

I thought it was more of a back and forth about something new and possibly better. When someone says “What about the grid?” I post about my friend who drives a plug in hybrid and has a solar system with a backup battery power wall. He is independent from it. “What about the floods” and I post a video of a Tesla driving through water. “They are so expensive” so I post that they are bringing the cost down. That’s all. My wife and I share an Outlander PHEV as our daily and my nephew and I share a gas pickup for work. My next truck will probably be a diesel since the electric ones won’t be for a while. Looking forward to making the transition when possible. My first choice will always be a bicycle.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Here comes a $24k electric car.


Electric golf carts are almost as big and cheaper but their top end is somewhat slower.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Quote me the politics and I'll take some action.


No action requested here. Just pointing out the obvious. As far as I’m concerned it’s all good as long as people can be polite and respectful


----------



## Harvey

If you're fine with it whatever politics you are seeing not sure why you pointed it out. The sweet car thread that is largely fossil fuel cars, do you see politics there? Maybe bring up politics when you think it is over the line. Otherwise don't introduce it to the thread yourself, if you don't want it to go there.

Concept cars have alway been mental exercises and many have never really happened:









The 20 Greatest Concept Cars of All Time, and We Mean All Time


A great concept car generates excitement and gives us a glimpse of our motoring future. Here are our picks for the 20 greatest concept cars of all time.




www.motortrend.com





Dreaming is part of new product development.


----------



## Harvey

Ford adding more jobs to increase production of electric F-150 Lightning


Ford said it would invest $250 million and add 450 hourly jobs across three Michigan facilities to lift production, having already garnered more than 150,000 reservations for the truck.




nypost.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

It will be interesting to watch. Heck, they can't even get trucks to their dealers now and experts are saying no change in that until 2023, at best. Fun times!! lol


----------



## Harvey

Assuming those trucks will need chips as much as anything else, if not more?

ETA: It's amazing the entire supply chain is so fragile.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> It's amazing the entire supply chain is so fragile.


THIS!! To say the least it's SO bizarre.


Harvey said:


> Assuming those trucks will need chips as much as anything else, if not more?


I can only assume they will. Can't think of one reason why they wouldn't.


----------



## Harvey

One of our tenants at our office building told drove up in a tesla. He likes it. He likes charging at home the most. He said the battery lasts much longer in city driving because of the braking. He also estimated 20-30% less in winter battery life and that's not Adk winter, but flatlands.

When the 1000 mile battery comes out, I'm in for sure. One car sooner, for the Mrs, as promised.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> ETA: It's amazing the entire supply chain is so fragile.


just- in- time- delivery is causing all kinds of problems in many industries. We’re constantly out of stock on all kinds of stuff lately.


----------



## riverc0il

Harvey said:


> ETA: It's amazing the entire supply chain is so fragile.


It only took a global pandemic to knock it out of whack. 

The big question is will companies realign themselves to consider not just price but also control and proximity after the pandemic subsides, or will they go back to business as usual (until a truly devastating pandemic takes us out again, C19 is pretty minor compared to how bad it could potentially be...).


----------



## Brownski

I don’t see any evidence the sultans of smart have seen the error of their ways. The execs of my company certainly haven’t.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> just- in- time- delivery is causing all kinds of problems in many industries. We’re constantly out of stock on all kinds of stuff lately.


Toyota was the poster child for just in time inventory/manufacturing.
They be rethinkin, allegedly.








How a Single Covid Case Rocked the World’s Biggest Carmaker


Early last month at a sprawling factory on the highway connecting Hanoi to the Vietnamese port city of Haiphong, a single worker tested positive for Covid-19. The delta variant was spreading swiftly through the Southeast Asian nation at the time, and on Aug. 4, provincial officials suspended...




www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

The pandemic was just the final straw. Apparently the writing was on the wall for this shortage prior to the pandemic.









Why is there a chip shortage?


The big chip crunch is really biting now, leaving even the most unexpected industries in crisis.



www.bbc.com


----------



## trackbiker

Brownski said:


> I don’t see any evidence the sultans of smart have seen the error of their ways. The execs of my company certainly haven’t.


That's what happens when you let the bean counters run the show. Yes, you have to watch the pennies but that's not the only thing to consider. Things that used to be "off the shelf" years ago aren't stocked any more. They don't even order the raw material until the order comes in. They forgot the goal of business is not to minimize costs, it's to maximize profits. Sometimes you have to spend a nickel to make a dime.


----------



## Harvey

This is kind of a Ford commercial, but also kind of interesting if you are into it.

FYI first six minutes are assembly line, last 5 minutes show the truck driving.


----------



## Campgottagopee

This article confirms my suspension that Tesla has quality issues. Part of what I do is appraise cars/trucks. With that come looking for prior paint and bodywork. I've appraised a few Tesla's that have had body panels not lining up yet I didn't see any paintwork on them and the auto check would be clean, meaning no reported accidents. I concluded that some of these things are just slapped together. 








A Tesla owner detailed multiple quality-control issues but remains a supporter — and it shows why Tesla still dominates the electric car market


From leaks to a shoddy paint job, a Tesla driver broke down quality-control issues with his EV. He says it's a small price to pay for driving a Tesla.




www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Electric robotaxis may not be the climate solution we were led to believe


Self-driving EVs could increase energy consumption.




www.theverge.com


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Electric robotaxis may not be the climate solution we were led to believe
> 
> 
> Self-driving EVs could increase energy consumption.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theverge.com


It's actnually a well known economic effect that efficeincy >> lower cost >> more affordable for more people >> more demand. It's why the average American has higher standard of living than the Roman emperors. Economic growth has exceeded energy growth for the last 40 years or so, but that is an exception more than the experienceof history. The key to a happy future is clean energy, not less energy.

mm


----------



## tirolski

Lots of shuttered EV factories in China, but not due to chip shortage, allegedly.








Deserted factories show how China's electric car boom went too far


Serves as potential warning sign for investors who've poured money into EV makers and technologies




financialpost.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> It's actnually a well known economic effect that efficeincy >> lower cost >> more affordable for more people >> more demand. It's why the average American has higher standard of living than the Roman emperors. Economic growth has exceeded energy growth for the last 40 years or so, but that is an exception more than the experienceof history. The key to a happy future is clean energy, not less energy.
> 
> mm


My point is that this entire "shift" to EV's isn't anywhere near as simple as a lot of people would like us to think it will be. Did you read the article? This stuff is far from "clean". That's fine with me but I think too many people are getting caught up in the green factor when it's seemingly not what they really think it is.

I wish I could link to the first article I read on this study, but you wouldn't be able to open it. It's from Automotive News and you have to be a subscriber to read it.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> My point is that this entire "shift" to EV's isn't anywhere near as simple as a lot of people would like us to think it will be. Did you read the article? This stuff is far from "clean". That's fine with me but I think too many people are getting caught up in the green factor when it's seemingly not what they really think it is.


I did read the artical and my point is that the solution is clean energy, not suppressing growth. EVs are as clean as the source used to generate electricity. Fossils fuels have reached the limit of polution control, electricity sources have not. And I know things are not as simple as some think.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> I did read the artical and my point is that the solution is clean energy, not suppressing growth. EVs are as clean as the source used to generate electricity. Fossils fuels have reached the limit of polution control, electricity sources have not. And I know things are not as simple as some think.
> 
> mm


Gotcha. Understand.
Agree we need growth but I also hope we don't have all our eggs in one basket, as it seems we currently do. Something as simple as a microchip shouldn't nearly halt one of the biggest industries in the country.


----------



## DomB

Good stuff guys. 

I am a bit behind, but *(1)* I believe the 150 Lightening is in pre prodcution: they make the vehicle to a spec to test, but it is not mass produced off an assemply line. It won't be as capable off road as an ICE 150 in some ways (the battery eats into the clearance) but in other ways more capable (torque). You can also charge your freakin' house with it in the event of a power outage.

*(2)* Rivian has actually, finally, produced sellable vehicles off the production line (I think this week). They say they are sticking to their timeline of delivering customer vehicles this week. 

Camp: Rivian completed the Trans America Trail - an offroad trail that bisects the country from North Carolina beaches (that look like they have sand similar to long island beaches) to Oregon. Motortrend has a cool video. 

EPA Range rating: 314 mi on the truck; 316 on the SUV. We don't know yet if they are being like Tesla (less actual range in real life) or Porsche (more actual range in real life). If you get the all terrain wheels, then you lose 10-15% range; though there have been some indications of a 'conserve' mode that gets you 300 miles with the ATs. 

Selfishly, I should be getting my order delievered as a Launch Edition holder by Spring 2022 (though I will believe it when I drive it). For now, it is my nearly 11-year old CRV that I am cruising around the beach on. 

See: https://electrek.co/2021/09/14/rivian-team-watches-first-customer-r1t-roll-off-production-line/

We rented a house near Gore (actually near Bakers Mills (sp)) this season so hope to see you guys. Be even better if I get to use a fancy car where I don't have to think about driving decisions on the hwy.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Bakers Mills (


My old stomping grounds


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> This article confirms my suspension that Tesla has quality issues. Part of what I do is appraise cars/trucks. With that come looking for prior paint and bodywork. I've appraised a few Tesla's that have had body panels not lining up yet I didn't see any paintwork on them and the auto check would be clean, meaning no reported accidents. I concluded that some of these things are just slapped together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Tesla owner detailed multiple quality-control issues but remains a supporter — and it shows why Tesla still dominates the electric car market
> 
> 
> From leaks to a shoddy paint job, a Tesla driver broke down quality-control issues with his EV. He says it's a small price to pay for driving a Tesla.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


You are totally right - the main things I know of are body panel gaps and bad paint jobs (dust, hair in factory paint). 

My understanding is that Tesla also has some amazing mfg tech in their construction - I think the Model Y has the largest unibody stamp (maybe describing wrong) of any mfg'd vehicle, and Tesla focuses on continual improvement from vehicle to vehicle. Sandy Munro has cool videos on his breakdowns of many vehicles, including Tesla.


----------



## DomB

Here is the R1t (i.e. Rivian Truck) owner's manual that came out in the past few days. This one is for the car folks and general nerds. Camp, I believe you may find this worth skimming. 

There are some cool features. 



https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/attachments/r1t-owners-guide-pdf.9166/


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Here is the R1t (i.e. Rivian Truck) owner's manual that came out in the past few days. This one is for the car folks and general nerds. Camp, I believe you may find this worth skimming.
> 
> There are some cool features.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/attachments/r1t-owners-guide-pdf.9166/


A lot going on there. Proof is in the pudding, let's see what happens when these things actually start hitting the roads. These guys (Tesla, Rivian, etc) scare me. They aren't proven. If/when I go EV it will be from a manufacturer that has already had a recall of 100,000 vehicles, or so. One good recall and these guys good be done.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> A lot going on there. Proof is in the pudding, let's see what happens when these things actually start hitting the roads. These guys (Tesla, Rivian, etc) scare me. They aren't proven. If/when I go EV it will be from a manufacturer that has already had a recall of 100,000 vehicles, or so. One good recall and these guys good be done.


True. However is it better to buy from a company you know will probably screw things up? I'm thinking Ford or take a chance. I'm still leaning on getting a rivian when they become more readily available.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I'm thinking Ford


If I were to pull the trigger now it would 100% be Ford. EV's aren't new to Ford.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> If I were to pull the trigger now it would 100% be Ford. EV's aren't new to Ford.


With the global natural gas shortage electric rates are set to skyrocket 
It’s going to a expensive winter


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> A lot going on there. Proof is in the pudding, let's see what happens when these things actually start hitting the roads. These guys (Tesla, Rivian, etc) scare me. They aren't proven. If/when I go EV it will be from a manufacturer that has already had a recall of 100,000 vehicles, or so. One good recall and these guys good be done.


Good point - when making a purchase, you have to consider all the potential downsides. 

I think you're right. I saw a journal article today that the mustaing mach e was recalled for bonding issues on windshield and pano roof. 

I think I will still go through with Rivian (if I get called to finalize my order!). I am absolutely taking a lot of early adopter risk, but that is mitigated by Ford, Amazon, and Kelly blue book backing Rivian's equity. I also have to weigh that against some of the benefits of a 'clean sheet' company: no car dealers (i have only bought two cars in my life, and the dealership part of it is useless at best, hurts consumers at worst). 

On the established companies, sad to see the problems with the Bolt - GM is now recommending that you park 50 feet from any objects and stay with the car during charging, making the car useless. GM has a mixed record on EVs (killing a good car in the 90s, etc. while also providing one of the first 'mass' market EVs with the volt and bolt). I get that supports your point: if GM has trouble with this, who won't? 

We'll see. I haven't don't the research, but I would bet there were a bunch of problems when we went from horses to internal combustion engine 'carriages' 100 pluls years ago. I am serious - no pun intended.


----------



## x10003q

jasonwx said:


> With the global natural gas shortage electric rates are set to skyrocket
> It’s going to a expensive winter


Not for our area.




__





Northeast Gas Association: NGA ISSUE BRIEF: Supply Outlook


NorthEastGas Website



www.northeastgas.org


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> (i have only bought two cars in my life, and the dealership part of it is useless at best, hurts consumers at worst).


Wait until you have problems
That's where a dealer kicks in
I'd be VERY cautious not going through a dealer


----------



## trackbiker

x10003q said:


> Not for our area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northeast Gas Association: NGA ISSUE BRIEF: Supply Outlook
> 
> 
> NorthEastGas Website
> 
> 
> 
> www.northeastgas.org


Many gas wells in NE PA are capped waiting for pipe lines. New England would love to have natural gas for heating verses oil. Cuomo blocked pipe lines through NY State because, I'm paraphrasing, "If we don't allow fracking of gas in this state why should we allow fracked gas pipe lines through our state?" And the only way to New England is through NY.
Maybe that will change under a new governor. 
Note: I'm not a big fan of fracking or any fossil fuels but it's a better choice than oil heat as we transition to renewables.


----------



## tirolski

trackbiker said:


> Many gas wells in NE PA are capped waiting for pipe lines.
> Note: I'm not a big fan of fracking or any fossil fuels but it's a better choice than oil heat as we transition to renewables.


Why do ya think they call it “natural" gas?
It ain’t all from old dinosaur bones i.e. fossils.








						A window into the abiotic carbon cycle - Acetate and formate in fracture waters in 2.7 billion year-old host rocks of the Canadian Shield
					

The recent expansion of studies at hydrothermal submarine vents from investigation of abiotic methane formation to include abiotic production of organics such acetate and formate, and rising interest in processes of abiotic organic synthesis on the ocean-world moons of Saturn and Jupiter, have...




					ui.adsabs.harvard.edu


----------



## Sbob

tirolski said:


> Why do ya think they call it “natural" gas?
> It ain’t all from old dinosaur bones i.e. fossils.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A window into the abiotic carbon cycle - Acetate and formate in fracture waters in 2.7 billion year-old host rocks of the Canadian Shield
> 
> 
> The recent expansion of studies at hydrothermal submarine vents from investigation of abiotic methane formation to include abiotic production of organics such acetate and formate, and rising interest in processes of abiotic organic synthesis on the ocean-world moons of Saturn and Jupiter, have...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ui.adsabs.harvard.edu







I have an engineer friend who claims US has a 200yr supply.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Sbob said:


> I have an engineer friend who claims US has a 200yr supply.


I have a capped well within 5 acres of me. I heat with wood pellets and my backup is oil. It would be so cheap and much cleaner if NY would get their head out of their ass and hook it up.


----------



## tirolski

Sbob said:


> I have an engineer friend who claims US has a 200yr supply.


Eatin beans helps to release it too.


----------



## Sbob

tirolski said:


> Eatin beans helps to release it too.


Nice…Been there done that when I was 10 . 

Corduroy pants are not recommended attire while engaging in that activity?


----------



## x10003q

trackbiker said:


> Many gas wells in NE PA are capped waiting for pipe lines. New England would love to have natural gas for heating verses oil. Cuomo blocked pipe lines through NY State because, I'm paraphrasing, "If we don't allow fracking of gas in this state why should we allow fracked gas pipe lines through our state?" And the only way to New England is through NY.
> Maybe that will change under a new governor.
> Note: I'm not a big fan of fracking or any fossil fuels but it's a better choice than oil heat as we transition to renewables.


Total fail by Cuomo. New England has the highest use of heating oil in the US which is way dirtier than natural gas and NE does not have enough NG to affect the change over from oil. So stuuuuuuuuupid.


----------



## Ripitz

Sbob said:


> I have an engineer friend who claims US has a 200yr supply.


Cool video. I’ve never seen that before.


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> True. However is it better to buy from a company you know will probably screw things up? I'm thinking Ford or take a chance. I'm still leaning on getting a rivian when they become more readily available.


This is a video of an unmodified (i.e. advanced preproduction or production) R1t. No special tires other than the mfg's optional all terrain tire. Off the line specs. Later on in the thread, a forum member posted a video going up in their Forerunner, which I have not viewed. Just for comparison to ICE. 









						R1T Climbing Hells Gate - Amazing Video
					






					www.rivianforums.com


----------



## jasonwx

DomB said:


> This is a video of an unmodified (i.e. advanced preproduction or production) R1t. No special tires other than the mfg's optional all terrain tire. Off the line specs. Later on in the thread, a forum member posted a video going up in their Forerunner, which I have not viewed. Just for comparison to ICE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R1T Climbing Hells Gate - Amazing Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com


Just saw Ford has to recall all the mustang mach e
Windshield and roof are coming off and all the new removable roof panels on the new bronco are delaminating. 
This is inexcusable 
And they wonder why Honda and Toyota rule the auto world


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> And they wonder why Honda and Toyota rule the auto world


Let's stop with this nonsense
Honda and Toyota have had their share of MASSIVE recalls as well. Honda is losing market share day by day.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> Let's stop with this nonsense
> Honda and Toyota have had their share of MASSIVE recalls as well. Honda is losing market share day by day.


I assume you’re being sarcastic


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Eatin beans helps to release it too.


Plants also release ethylene vapors as a phyto-hormone.
It helps to ripen fruits and veggies.








The Origin of Fruit Ripening


A gaseous plant hormone turns off anti-ripening genes, enabling fruit to mellow--and taste good




www.scientificamerican.com




Shell buildin a hugemongous plant on the river near Pittsburgh to crack natural gas into ethylene then onto polyethylene (plastic).
Drove by the beast in May takin a cousin to the Pixberg airport.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> I assume you’re being sarcastic


No, not at all
I'm being serious. They certainly put out a great product, but by no means do they rule the auto world. It's an extremely tight race out there. IMO, to rule the auto world you have to have truck sales. Neither one of them hold a candle to Ford or Chevy when it comes to truck sales. Subaru has, and has had, the highest residual values for years. Again, they put out a great product but most certainly have had their share of massive recalls. In fact, Toyota still holds the #1 spot in the USA for the biggest recall ever.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm being serious.... Subaru has, and has had, the highest residual values for years.


I perused the owners manual posted above for the new Rivian.
The Subie Outback has many more features detailed in it’s manual and it’s a couple years older, not that I read all of it.
I’m still a learner.


----------



## Brownski

Didn’t Toyota have to replace the frames of multiple years of Tacoma’s recently? That must have cost a few bucks


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Didn’t Toyota have to replace the frames of multiple years of Tacoma’s recently? That must have cost a few bucks


Yes
Nissan had a similar one as well


----------



## Brownski

That blew my mind when it happened. They must have been completely rebuilding those trucks by hand at the dealership, right? It almost seems like giving everybody a new truck might have been cheaper.


----------



## Tjf1967

jasonwx said:


> I assume you’re being sarcastic


Airbag recall but I get your point. The established auto companies are doing the same old same old with electric vehicles.


----------



## Tjf1967

Brownski said:


> Didn’t Toyota have to replace the frames of multiple years of Tacoma’s recently? That must have cost a few bucks


Of like 15 year old trucks


----------



## Tjf1967

Brownski said:


> That blew my mind when it happened. They must have been completely rebuilding those trucks by hand at the dealership, right? It almost seems like giving everybody a new truck might have been cheaper.


The welded some shit into Scotties truck and he got a couple more years out of it.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> That blew my mind when it happened. They must have been completely rebuilding those trucks by hand at the dealership, right? It almost seems like giving everybody a new truck might have been cheaper.


MY buddy had one of those. The first dealer said it would take 3 weeks, but his truck didn't need it. A few months later another dealer replaced the frame in 3 days. I'm pretty sure that second dealer made bank on that replacement.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> That blew my mind when it happened. They must have been completely rebuilding those trucks by hand at the dealership, right? It almost seems like giving everybody a new truck might have been cheaper.


What I saw was the majority of people sold them back to the manufacturer. That said, it doesn't take long for a body shop to switch out a frame.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Airbag recall but I get your point.











The Toyota Recall Crisis - A chronology of the Toyota pedal, floormat recall - Motor Trend


The Toyota Recall Crisis started with a single, horrifying car crash in southern California last August. And this week, after two separate recalls covering 7.5 million vehicles, Toyota was forced to announce it was suspending the sale of eight of its best-selling vehicles. Find out more about...




www.motortrend.com





The biggest recall in US history was the gas pedal and floormat thing


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> The established auto companies are doing the same old same old with electric vehicles.


As will these start-up's
They ain't in it to make us "happy" --- they have bean counters too


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Don't regular cars have chips? I think the chip shortage is messing with a lot of things, beyond cars?


Why automotive chips are different.








Chip makers to carmakers: time to get out of the semiconductor Stone Age


Intel, Qualcomm try to wean auto companies from dependence on obsolete technology




fortune.com


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> What I saw was the majority of people sold them back to the manufacturer. That said, it doesn't take long for a body shop to switch out a frame.


A Toyota tech made a YouTube video of him changing a Tacoma frame it’s quite fascinating


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> What I saw was the majority of people sold them back to the manufacturer. That said, it doesn't take long for a body shop to switch out a frame.


I heard stories of people getting 6 grand for field trucks


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> A Toyota tech


Techs, especially master techs, are an amazing breed.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Techs, especially master techs, are an amazing breed.


Guys: the media embargo was lifted and a bunch of R1T 'media' reviews dropped from friendly sources. 

Here are two good ones from a media drive in the Rockies:


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> Guys: the media embargo was lifted and a bunch of R1T 'media' reviews dropped from friendly sources.
> 
> Here are two good ones from a media drive in the Rockies:


That’s dope. The full size glass roof is cool. I like the onboard air compressor and ride height adjustment. Definitely get the camp kitchen and tent. 0-60 in 3 seconds? Later dude!


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Guys: the media embargo was lifted and a bunch of R1T 'media' reviews dropped from friendly sources.
> 
> Here are two good ones from a media drive in the Rockies:


Yes, I've been reading good stuff about these. Off road magazine loves it too.


----------



## Sbob

Ripitz said:


> That’s dope. The full size glass roof is cool. I like the onboard air compressor and ride height adjustment. Definitely get the camp kitchen and tent. 0-60 in 3 seconds? Later dude!



Sunroofs make me nervous when it comes to a place to hide from a hailstorm but I guess you could raise the vehicle and duck underneath . I'd like to see a solar panel roof to help charging .


----------



## Ripitz

Sbob said:


> Sunroofs make me nervous when it comes to a place to hide from a hailstorm but I guess you could raise the vehicle and duck underneath . I'd like to see a solar panel roof to help charging .


You’d be laying in some cold ass water. Maybe jump in the frunk?


----------



## Tjf1967

Just watched one video. Lots of creative thinking went into it. Impressive. Looks like a winner.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Just watched one video. Lots of creative thinking went into it. Impressive. Looks like a winner.


It better be for $73,000


----------



## trackbiker

Campgottagopee said:


> It better be for $73,000


$73,000 is above my budget but if you look at what an equivalent ICE truck costs then add accessories to match the off road capabilility (lift kit, skid plates, locking differential, etc.) you're probably in the same ballpark. 
Granted, most people in the east will never use the off road capability but many people out west will.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> It better be for $73,000


Yeah that kinda gets in my way. Figure 67 out the door with credits. I need a sugar momma.


----------



## Campgottagopee

trackbiker said:


> add accessories to match the off road capabilility (lift kit, skid plates, locking differential,


IMO, if you're adding these to your truck you've bought the wrong one to begin with. For 10g's cheaper you can get Ram 2500 Power Wagon w/ front rear locking diffs, unlocking swaybars, fully lifted, etc etc, and not worry about being near an electric pole


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I need a sugar momma.


Word!


----------



## Harvey

Somebody buy one of these damn things and let's have a report!

I'll put it on the front page.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Somebody buy one of these damn things and let's have a report!
> 
> I'll put it on the front page.


Can't even get one yet
They keep pushing back delivery times
I think TJ had a deposit down, or one on order, or something like that, but pulled the plug (pun intended).


----------



## Harvey

DomB said:


>



I watched about half of this vid ^^. Pretty impressive. 

That offroad road was hilarious. Can't believe it gets much use.

Did they do the offroading and then drive the 100 road miles on one charge? I'd be surprised.


----------



## Harvey

Maybe I am stating the obvious but the idea of four electric motors strikes me as elegant.

You are eliminating all the weight of the drive train, and the ground clearance looks good without making the vehicle taller. I don't know this for a fact but I'm guessing that four small electric motors don't weight that much more than one motor with the same total power. So you get 4wd with little cost in weight.


----------



## Tjf1967

> It weighs 7500 pounds. I guess the batteries must weight tons. The video I saw they never mentioned charging.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Did they do the offroading and then drive the 100 road miles on one charge? I'd be surprised.


It looks like they did and had 30% charge left. 

A Power Wagon may be $10,000 less but you get a $7,500 rebate with the EV.  You also have an average $2,000 per year fuel cost with the gaser. You would recoup that difference very quickly and also eat Corvettes for breakfast.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> I watched about half of this vid ^^. Pretty impressive.
> 
> That offroad road was hilarious. Can't believe it gets much use.
> 
> Did they do the offroading and then drive the 100 road miles on one charge? I'd be surprised.


They did, I think. The second video is this guy Tom and I think after the offroading (28 miles) he drove 154 miles and had like 32% battery left. He is well known in the ev world and ev battery nerd world (I believe he also participated in a 'cannon ball run' for a Taycan or model three that did the trip in something ridiculous like 80 something hours).

He did the math and guestimated that the post offroading range when he was going on flat road was about the 314 epa rating. But keep in mind the rating is for their road tires and he was using less efficient AT tires with the offroad underbody option. 

He says his math was from the flat portion, but keep in mind for some of that time he decreased altitude by 4,000 feet.


----------



## DomB

Ripitz said:


> It looks like they did and had 30% charge left.
> 
> A Power Wagon may be $10,000 less but you get a $7,500 rebate with the EV. You also have an average $2,000 per year fuel cost with the gaser. You would recoup that difference very quickly and also eat Corvettes for breakfast.


Ripitz beat me


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> Maybe I am stating the obvious but the idea of four electric motors strikes me as elegant.
> 
> You are eliminating all the weight of the drive train, and the ground clearance looks good without making the vehicle taller. I don't know this for a fact but I'm guessing that four small electric motors don't weight that much more than one motor with the same total power. So you get 4wd with little cost in weight.


Yes, but you do have a massive weight increase from the batteries. For example, Camp can correct me but a truck smaller than an F-150 weighs a little less than a F-250. 

What helps is the point you make plus regenerative breaking to recharge plus relatively good aero for a truck. The truck gets mpge of 70 (70 miles per gallon gas in electric equivalent).


----------



## DomB

The cool thing is that in the EPA tests, in Conserve mode (that we know little about right now), the hit was 27%. Many EVs the hit is 40%. I would be plenty happy with a 27% cold weather hit to range.


----------



## DomB

Just to be even-handed and Camp's point about blank sheet risk. In a Rivian forum, they are asking and answering why production delivery vehicles have only gone to employees so far (answer: they are not quite ready for prime time): 









						So  how long until a forum member here gets their R1T?
					

Don’t shoot the messenger, but I think they’re still working out a lot of small kinks, and are therefore delaying deliveries to non-employees. If you read/watch the reviews that came out yesterday there was a large number of problems with the trucks.  Just a few that I remember seeing: -Power...




					www.rivianforums.com
				







> Don’t shoot the messenger, but I think they’re still working out a lot of small kinks, and are therefore delaying deliveries to non-employees. If you read/watch the reviews that came out yesterday there was a large number of problems with the trucks. Just a few that I remember seeing:
> *-Power tonneau broken on all but one truck
> -Very jittery cameras
> -problem with window foam preventing the window from properly rolling up
> -tailgate not dropping automatically
> -regen causing overheating even on mild grades
> -some windshield wipers having a mind of their own
> -multiple reports of problems with Driver+
> -laggy navigation/maps
> -a few others I don’t remember off the top of my head*
> 
> None of this to take away from the generally amazing success of the reviews, but I feel like there are quite a few fixes that might still need to be corrected before these get out in the real public.
> 
> Yes, I know the trucks from the reviews were pre-prod. And yes, I know OTA updates can potentially be used to fix the non-mechanical issues.


That might explain a few things, looking back at my First Mile Event experience. I was looking to try the tonneau cover, but they told me they it was turned off for the event. I also noticed that the tailgate didn't drop when I pushed the button. I had to help it get started. I didn't really think much about it at the time.

I'm sure they are aware of the problems and have people working on it. Since I live close to Normal, I volunteer to take an early delivery and help them discover any issues that need to be fixed


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Can't even get one yet
> They keep pushing back delivery times
> I think TJ had a deposit down, or one on order, or something like that, but pulled the plug (pun intended).


I cancelled my order when they kept pushing back release dates. Just bought a car. I had 175k and got hit with a 5k repair bill...I just it be tires and brakes on it. I dumped it. Good amount on the trade and seeing as no one likes TLX I had a big selection to choose from. I still might swap it out next summer.


----------



## Harvey

DomB said:


> Yes, but you do have a massive weight increase from the batteries.


So does a prius weigh a lot more than a corolla?


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> So does a prius weigh a lot more than a corolla?


Not really a lot more if you are asking about a Prius Hybrid vs a gas-powder Corolla. Prius Hybrid 2021 is 3010 lbs. Found 2955 for the weight of a 2021 Corolla. The Corolla has been getting heavier since 2019. The Corolla Hybrid weighs 3150.



https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/compare?trims=14429-412515_14416-413835



If I did the calculation right, the RAV4 Prime is about 500 pounds heavier than a RAV4 Hybrid. That's one reason the gas mileage for the Prime using only Hybrid mode isn't quite as good. Traction battery is good for 42-48 miles when fully charged, depending on temperature.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> It looks like they did and had 30% charge left.
> 
> A Power Wagon may be $10,000 less but you get a $7,500 rebate with the EV. You also have an average $2,000 per year fuel cost with the gaser. You would recoup that difference very quickly and also eat Corvettes for breakfast.


Power Wagon can be fixed by nearly any decent tech in any shop. When the Rivian shits the bed up north at Gore, who's gonna fix it? They gonna break, they all do.
There's also rebates from Ram. 
I'm still not convinced that EV's are here to stay. Lots of lip service going on now and that always makes me cautious.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Power Wagon can be fixed by nearly any decent tech in any shop. When the Rivian shits the bed up north at Gore, who's gonna fix it? They gonna break, they all do.
> There's also rebates from Ram.
> I'm still not convinced that EV's are here to stay. Lots of lip service going on now and that always makes me cautious.


No, no, no. There is zero maintenance with EVs. You just update it with your phone.?


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> When the Rivian shits the bed up north at Gore, who's gonna fix it? They gonna break, they all do.


Ya know parts is parts.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> So does a prius weigh a lot more than a corolla?


I dont know, probably, but keep in mind that a partial ev like that has a tiny battery so if it is heavier, it is not by much. SCRATCH THAT - JUST USED THE MAGICAL GOOGLE MACHINE. Prius is 40 pounds lighter, about 1% of 3,000 lbs weight. It was probably designed with lighter materials and probably also has a smaller ICE engine, but I am just guessing. 

The Rivian's battery for the smallest verison is 35% bigger than a Model X. That is because the Rivian looks nice and therefore is less effecient (keep in mind it is 4x-5x as efficient as a comparable ICE truck).


----------



## trackbiker

BEV's are currently the best alternative to ICE's for several reasons. But I think that the best long term solution is HEV's (Hydrogen Electric Vehicles). Here's a good analysis of the plus's and minus's of HEV's.
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars. Everything you need to know


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> Somebody buy one of these damn things and let's have a report!
> 
> I'll put it on the front page.


I'll gladly do it but I don't need the front page treatment. Harv I will email you about some potential restrictions I have on posting that. That should be saved for something good. 

I have a so-called R1s (Suv) Launch Edition that I placed in MAY 2019, and Rivian has committed to delivering those all sometime between December '21 and June 21, 2022. 

If the beach driving permit is available then, I will get some pics on the soft long island sands (they black out sales to keep permits down).


----------



## DomB

trackbiker said:


> BEV's are currently the best alternative to ICE's for several reasons. But I think that the best long term solution is HEV's (Hydrogen Electric Vehicles). Here's a good analysis of the plus's and minus's of HEV's.
> Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars. Everything you need to know


I agree BEVs (eg Prius, other hybrids) are the best alternative NOW. I don't know enough about Hydrogen, but it seems to me that pure EVs are getting way more backing. Keep in mind that Honda tried to ignore electric and (I think) go with hydrogen but they are now making a pure electric production vehicle for Europe (it looks cool but most people don't buy cars like that here). 

Also, Toyota, which I believe bet on BEVs and then Hydrogen, announced a battery break through that is 5-10 years from production. This at least suggests they are being realistic that EV may be the future over Hydrogen


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> No, no, no. There is zero maintenance with EVs. You just update it with your phone.?


LOL
Wait until some computer nerd from ______________ (insert anywhere you'd like) starts hacking in to these things. What a shitshow this is going to be. You know damn well that will happen.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Can't even get one yet
> They keep pushing back delivery times
> I think TJ had a deposit down, or one on order, or something like that, but pulled the plug (pun intended).


Camp - I can't find the post, but I saw you say, 'What happens when you are stuck?'

Rivian says (I know that 'do' matters more than 'say') that for the first year you get free membership, which includes them coming to you with backup charging and fixing, including if you are in extreme offroad conditions (I don't know of any mfg doing that). 

So, they would come get me if I were stuck on 87. Will they actually do it? It seems like it is a risk I will be taking.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> I'm sure they are aware of the problems and have people working on it. Since I live close to Normal, I volunteer to take an early delivery and help them discover any issues that need to be fixed


It's like running out of staples, shit never breaks at the right time. Hopefully it's not 10 below and snowing sideways when it breaks down.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> LOL
> Wait until some computer nerd from ______________ (insert anywhere you'd like) starts hacking in to these things. What a shitshow this is going to be. You know damn well that will happen.


This is a valid concern. Tesla recently paid a so-called white hat hacker that hit an exploit. But camp, it is a concern for probably any car built with a 'hotspot' ability in it, no matter how 'dumb' the car is. So, say, after year 2017 or so (someone would have to tell me - my newest and cheap car that sits in the driveway because I live in the burbs but near a train station is from 2014).

The legacy automakers are even dumber about this. There was an early gen cherokee, I believe, that has a wifi hot spot that was almost completely unprotected. During the review, he contacted the journalist and took control of the car for a period of time on the highway to prove a point. I believe the exploit was fixed.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Camp - I can't find the post, but I saw you say, 'What happens when you are stuck?'
> 
> Rivian says (I know that 'do' matters more than 'say') that for the first year you get free membership, which includes them coming to you with backup charging and fixing, including if you are in extreme offroad conditions (I don't know of any mfg doing that).
> 
> So, they would come get me if I were stuck on 87. Will they actually do it? It seems like it is a risk I will be taking.


I get that. Where is Rivian? How long will it take them to get you? Will they only get cover you if your breakdown is due to a warrantied part? Will they deliver you a loaner car on the spot so you can continue doing whatever it is you are doing? 
I've dealt with auto manufactures for 25+ years, like a lot of people they talk out of both sides of their mouths.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> It's like running out of staples, shit never breaks at the right time. Hopefully it's not 10 below and snowing sideways when it breaks down.


Just FYI, that quote about living near Normal was pasted from that other forum. I happily and sometimes sadly live on Long Island.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> I get that. Where is Rivian? How long will it take them to get you? Will they only get cover you if your breakdown is due to a warrantied part? Will they deliver you a loaner car on the spot so you can continue doing whatever it is you are doing?
> I've dealt with auto manufactures for 25+ years, like a lot of people they talk out of both sides of their mouths.


Roger - not disagreeing. There is a lot to unpack there. I will include some links but I gotta get the kids moving soon this am. 

I do believe that Rivian is resourced, ready, willing, and has a financial incentive to deliver a great product. If they don't some important core investors in finance (Blackrock, I think?), automotive (Ford) and tech (Amazon) and critics (Kelly blue book) won't be happy. The dollar speaks loudly.

I haven't tried to do the math, but Fords few hundred million investment in Rivian, if Rivian IPOs, will likely lead to more earnings (profit) than Ford makes in a year to several years in its business of selling cars.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> This is a valid concern. Tesla recently paid a so-called white hat hacker that hit an exploit. But camp, it is a concern for probably any car built with a 'hotspot' ability in it, no matter how 'dumb' the car is. So, say, after year 2017 or so (someone would have to tell me - my newest and cheap car that sits in the driveway because I live in the burbs but near a train station is from 2014).


An ICE vehicle will still move in limp mode. I would imagine that an EV will completely shut down.

I truly look forward with your journey with this thing. Not joking at all. I give you tons of credit for knowingly getting a vehicle that will be quirky as hell, to begin with.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> I haven't tried to do the math,


For me this ^^^^ is what it boils down too. Even if you pay cash for a vehicle you can break down your ownership into a monthly cost of ownership. I haven't done the math on ICE vs EV, nor do I care to, but, for me, the security of ICE outweighs the minimal savings (if any) of an EV.


----------



## Harvey

DomB said:


> I'll gladly do it but I don't need the front page treatment. Harv I will email you about some potential restrictions I have on posting that. That should be saved for something good.
> 
> I have a so-called R1s (Suv) Launch Edition that I placed in MAY 2019, and Rivian has committed to delivering those all sometime between December '21 and June 21, 2022.
> 
> If the beach driving permit is available then, I will get some pics on the soft long island sands (they black out sales to keep permits down).


Once you own the vehicle you can't post about it?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Once you own the vehicle you can't post about it?


My guess 
Being he's taking early delivery he has to agree to limit what he can and can't say about the vehicle. There's shit that in no way, shape, or form I'm able to publicly say about certain future product.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> My guess
> Being he's taking early delivery he has to agree to limit what he can and can't say about the vehicle. There's shit that in no way, shape, or form I'm able to publicly say about certain future product.


Very good guess. (No snark But incorrect. I am not trying to be mysterious but I don't want to post the reason. It has nothing to do with Rivian or the purchase etc. And I hope you guys know me well enough to know that if I had some restriction that could affect my view on something I am speaking about, I would just put it out there : )


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> But incorrect.


Story of my life


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> My guess


Maybe he’s a big oil exec?


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> LOL
> Wait until some computer nerd from ______________ (insert anywhere you'd like) starts hacking in to these things. What a shitshow this is going to be. You know damn well that will happen.


No I envision being stuck. Calling them and having someone tell you to unplug it and plug it back in. Lol. I don't think the engines will have any problems. It's an the other stuff


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> No I envision being stuck. Calling them and having someone tell you to unplug it and plug it back in. Lol.


LMAO!


Tjf1967 said:


> I don't think the engines will have any problems. It's an the other stuff


I believe so too. Look at an ICE vehicle. Normally it's a sensor etc that goes bad. EV's are nothing but a bucket of sensors.


----------



## Harvey

DomB said:


> Very good guess. (No snark But incorrect. I am not trying to be mysterious but I don't want to post the reason. It has nothing to do with Rivian or the purchase etc. And I hope you guys know me well enough to know that if I had some restriction that could affect my view on something I am speaking about, I would just put it out there : )


I can wait.

If that thing did that whole course and then drove 100 miles with 30% left. What is the summer and winter range?

Sound like the key will be either advancements in battery weight, or range or both.

Ha the power-to-weight ratio been rising?


----------



## Brownski

DomB said:


> you get free membership, which includes them coming to you with backup charging and fixing,


How do they provide the charging? If it’s from a gas generator on a trailer I’m gonna laugh


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> How do they provide the charging? If it’s from a gas generator on a trailer I’m gonna laugh


Yup, and even funnier if they use this set up.
It’s a tad bit simpler and greener.


----------



## gorgonzola

might get some methane too!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> If it’s from a gas generator on a trailer I’m gonna laugh


Of course it is


----------



## Campgottagopee

Pretty standard warranty and road side assistance programs









						Service - Support Center - Rivian
					

Whether you need maintenance or repairs, we have service available in all markets where Rivian vehicles are sold.




					rivian.com


----------



## Harvey

It looks like they tow you to a charger.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> It looks like they tow you to a charger.


For 5 years or 60K. Then you need a really long extension cord.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> LMAO!
> 
> I believe so too. Look at an ICE vehicle. Normally it's a sensor etc that goes bad. EV's are nothing but a bucket of sensors.


ICE vehicles are buckets of sensors controlling a complicated motor. EVs are the same except with a simple motor.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> It looks like they tow you to a charger.


Some day your Camaro will break down in the Dacks and they will send a Rivian tow truck to tow you to a museum to fix it.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

trackbiker said:


> BEV's are currently the best alternative to ICE's for several reasons. But I think that the best long term solution is HEV's (Hydrogen Electric Vehicles). Here's a good analysis of the plus's and minus's of HEV's.
> Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars. Everything you need to know


I don't think so, Most of the infrastructure for BEVs is already built out, and BEVs are gonna all good for the electric industry. Hydrogen will require an entire new infrastructure. Maybe if they can place electric powered hydrogen generators at every Seven Eleven then hydrogen will happen, but otherwise not. Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be,

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> It looks like they tow you to a charger.


MY neighbor caught a TPMS light on his Tesla. They put the car on a flatbed and took it away. Those things don't even come with a jack or a spare.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> ICE vehicles are buckets of sensors controlling a complicated motor. EVs are the same except with a simple motor.
> 
> mm


The only thing that makes an ICE motor complicated started whenever they hooked up sensors to them.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Some day your Camaro will break down in the Dacks and they will send a Rivian tow truck to tow you to a museum to fix it.
> 
> mm


None of us will be around if and when that ever happens.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> The only thing that makes an ICE motor complicated started whenever they hooked up sensors to them.


Have you ever seen a Model A motor? or an early 80's carburetor motor with vacuum controlled ignition and EGR? Or an automatic transmission for that matter? But sure, EVs are hopelessly complicated.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> None of us will be around if and when that ever happens.


Don't be so sure. Isn't Sno still hanging out here? What is he, 16 years old or something?

mm


----------



## Brownski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Some day your Camaro will break down in the Dacks and they will send a Rivian tow truck to tow you to a museum to fix it.
> 
> mm


I doubt it. Maybe an electric F series though


----------



## Ripitz

Tjf1967 said:


> No I envision being stuck. Calling them and having someone tell you to unplug it and plug it back in. Lol.


This kept me laughing all day


----------



## DomB

OK guys what are the open questions? : )


----------



## DomB

1. Warranty: consistent with luxury brands, including maximum degradation of battery range of 70% over 8 years/175k miles. So on a full charge in 8 years, they warrant you will still get 219 miles of range with road tires. 

Source: https://rivian.com/support/article/what-is-the-warranty-coverage-on-a-new-rivian

2. Cold weather driving: In conserve mode (which I don't know much about) in the EPA tests, there was a 27% hit to range. In normal mode it appears to be 40%. If true, this is pretty good for an EV. 









Rivian technical nuggets gleaned from EPA application docs


Major takeaways (from Rivian EPA application docs): Confirmed 108s pack architecture using 5A (nominal) 21700 cells. Modules are 8p yielding 40A ea. Nominal voltage of 400, max charging voltage of ~450V. DCFC Max of 210 kW Testing done in conserve and sport mode (then averaged) Conserve mode...




www.rivianforums.com





3. Who will rescue me when my weak EV breaks? Rivian Membership appears to cover getting stuck on and offroad; if offroad, they will come extract you. If you drive an run out of range, they will send a charge to you. (I think). Membership seems to be free for a year. I have no idea how much it may cost. 









Membership - Rivian


Rivian Membership is designed to bring us closer to the natural world and also to one another, helping us create more impact together.




rivian.com





4. Who can I rescue?  Check out Motor Trend's series on the cross-continental TransAmerica Offroad trail. In part 2 at 7:27, they come across a stuck Chevy truck and pull it out. (I am winking at you Camp - yes from the soft sands of North Carolina beaches to the rocky gravel of the Oregon coast); R1T can tow 11,000 lbs.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> The only thing that makes an ICE motor complicated started whenever they hooked up sensors to them.


What do the sensors do?


----------



## tirolski

gorgonzola said:


> might get some methane too!


Ya might be able to call it a hybrid too.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> What do the sensors do?


In an ICE the majority of them have to do with emissions. When one goes bad is when your CEL comes on. You can still drive your car when it's on, but if it's flashing that means the computer has sensed a misfire and most cars will go into limp mode. Limp mode will get you off the side of the road but not very fast. At least you aren't stranded.


----------



## Campgottagopee

FKIT 
I'm getting one of these 









2023 Lucid Air Review, Pricing, and Specs


The 2023 Lucid Air luxury EV sedan pairs powerful motors and the world’s longest driving range with upscale styling and fashionable interiors.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> FKIT
> I'm getting one of these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2023 Lucid Air Review, Pricing, and Specs
> 
> 
> The 2023 Lucid Air luxury EV sedan pairs powerful motors and the world’s longest driving range with upscale styling and fashionable interiors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.caranddriver.com


You want to talk about range, it is an EV that for some tires got a 500 mile rating(!). I don't even know if ICE's get that. 

The Lucid CEO is the guy who ran the Model S program at Tesla. For those of us who don't know, Tesla came very close to bankruptcy during that project, and it is arguably responsible for Tesla's success (the S is analoguous to the R1t/S - a mass produced Halo vehicle).


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Tesla came very close to bankruptcy during that project


An old factory rep of mine was part of this. He lost his job due to the almost BK. He always said had that not have happened he would've been set (financially) for life. He's a great guy with big balls. To my knowledge he's still racing sport bikes at a high level.


----------



## Brownski

Make an AWD minivan with 500 mile range and 1k pounds useful load capacity and I’m in... if it costs $40k or less.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Make an AWD minivan with 500 mile range and 1k pounds useful load capacity and I’m in... if it costs $40k or less.


This is what will be exciting to watch. If EV's can get competitive with their pricing that's when more people will start to pay attention. Right now it seems like those with money are the only ones capable of "saving" money by going EV. I say that because until all the cards are on the table I don't believe EV's will save a dime.


----------



## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> Make an AWD minivan with 500 mile range and 1k pounds useful load capacity and I’m in... if it costs $40k or less.


I agree with you..call me crazy , but my fantasy vehicle right now is the toyota sienna awd hybrid...prefect for my bikes/ skis etc..
rides smooth and quite like a 70's caddy 
problem it's north of 50k


----------



## Brownski

I’m skeptical that the electric grid will be able to handle widespread adaption as well. “Charge at home overnight” is actually another upper middle class privilege. An awful lot of NYC residents park on the street. That’s another segment that will have a hard time switching to EVs


----------



## Brownski

jasonwx said:


> my fantasy vehicle right now is the toyota sienna awd hybrid...


I’m right there with you. I’m putting it off but that’s the current top contender to replace our Pilot


----------



## Milo Maltbie

jasonwx said:


> ..my fantasy vehicle right now is the toyota sienna awd hybrid...


On of my buddies just got one of those. HE really likes it. He says he gets 47mpg around town, but about the same as his 10 year old Sienna on the highway. But it's still a minivan.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> I’m skeptical that the electric grid will be able to handle widespread adaption as well. “Charge at home overnight” is actually another upper middle class privilege. An awful lot of NYC residents park on the street. That’s another segment that will have a hard time switching to EVs


It's all good for the electric grid. All revenue and not much cost, but you're right that it will be a struggle in some Brooklyn neighborhoods.

mm


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> I agree with you..call me crazy , but my fantasy vehicle right now is the toyota sienna awd hybrid...prefect for my bikes/ skis etc..
> rides smooth and quite like a 70's caddy
> problem it's north of 50k


My friend in Boston held out for the Sienna AWD hybrid as a replacement for the old minivan that was more than ten years old and well used. Had to wait about a year since she had planned to get a replacement in 2020. She loves it. I expect she'll keep it for 10+ years.


----------



## DomB

Rivian filed IPO documents. Lots of details. Looks like close to 50,000 preorders. 









? Rivian IPO S1 Filing - reveals preorder numbers, R1S delivery date, Autonomous Subscription Fee & more...


https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1874178/000119312521289903/d157488ds1.htm Take Aways: 14 Directed Share Program - Preorder holders will likely be able to participate in the IPO in some fashion. 21 Preorders - 48,390 R1T / R1S as of September 30, 2021 in the United States and Canada...




www.rivianforums.com


----------



## DomB

DomB said:


> Rivian filed IPO documents. Lots of details. Looks like close to 50,000 preorders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ? Rivian IPO S1 Filing - reveals preorder numbers, R1S delivery date, Autonomous Subscription Fee & more...
> 
> 
> https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1874178/000119312521289903/d157488ds1.htm Take Aways: 14 Directed Share Program - Preorder holders will likely be able to participate in the IPO in some fashion. 21 Preorders - 48,390 R1T / R1S as of September 30, 2021 in the United States and Canada...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com


I won't keep filing, but this is interesting. They lost 300 million last quarter and have 3.5 bln cash and almost no debt (3m). 

Man it aint cheap to launch a company. Ford and Amazon own 5% each.


----------



## DomB

They had a billion dollars in revenue last year. That shocks me. I don't know revenue booking rules, but this must be a combination of preorders and amazon orders.


----------



## Brownski

T-shirt’ sales maybe?


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> They had a billion dollars in revenue last year. That shocks me. I don't know revenue booking rules, but this must be a combination of preorders and amazon orders.


If ya book loans as revenue, as Rutgers Athletics does, then ya can make that statement work.
The SEC filing says this:
_*Revenue and Costs of Revenue *
We are a development stage company and have not generated material revenue to date. Vehicle production and deliveries began in September 2021. As we expand production and commercialization of vehicles, we expect the majority of our revenue will be initially derived from sales of consumer and commercial vehicles, accessories, and regulatory credits._

Where do ya come up with yer billion in revenue statement?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> Where do ya come up with yer billion in revenue statement?


Maybe we could get Jeff Skilling to explain it. 

mm


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Milo Maltbie said:


> Maybe we could get Jeff Skilling to explain it.
> 
> mm


That is brilliant.


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> If ya book loans as revenue, as Rutgers Athletics does, then ya can make that statement work.
> The SEC filing says this:
> _*Revenue and Costs of Revenue *
> We are a development stage company and have not generated material revenue to date. Vehicle production and deliveries began in September 2021. As we expand production and commercialization of vehicles, we expect the majority of our revenue will be initially derived from sales of consumer and commercial vehicles, accessories, and regulatory credits._
> 
> Where do ya come up with yer billion in revenue statement?


It looks like I was wrong; they report 0 revenue for last Q, and then they have a discussion as to why they are Jobs Act company; I concluded (wrongly) from the Jobs Act language that they were saying they had 1 bn in revneu: 

They report 0 revenue for the last quarter (past below) (page 10).

And then they have a discussion as to why they qualify for certain treatment as a company with less than 1.07 billion last year (page 98). I couldn't find a statement of 1 bn in revenue when I went back; but if you have time check the back of the prospectus where all the financials are: 



  *For The
Three Months Ended
September 30, 2020*​  *For The Three Months Ended
September 30, 2021*​   *Actual*​  *Low (estimated)*​  *High (estimated)*​   *(in millions, except ‘Other Metrics’ amounts)*​ Revenue $—​         Loss from operations  (288)​         Net loss  (288)​         *Other Financial Data*            Cash and cash equivalents $3,561​         Capital expenditures—property, plant, and equipment  204​         *Other Metrics*            Vehicles Delivered


----------



## DomB

D.B. Cooper said:


> That is brilliant.


I love you guys, but you're dating yourselves : ) I think that was 20 years ago


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> I love you guys, but you're dating yourselves : ) I think that was 20 years ago


Time flies when yer havin fun.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Driver in China successfully sues Tesla for fraud


Court case adds to this year’s spate of bad publicity for Tesla in China – a key market for the electric vehicle maker.




www.aljazeera.com


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Driver in China successfully sues Tesla for fraud
> 
> 
> Court case adds to this year’s spate of bad publicity for Tesla in China – a key market for the electric vehicle maker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aljazeera.com


Musk going to China made no sense to me. They will steal his technology and build them cheaper and then kick him out.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> I’m skeptical that the electric grid will be able to handle widespread adaption as well. “Charge at home overnight” is actually another upper middle class privilege. An awful lot of NYC residents park on the street. That’s another segment that will have a hard time switching to EVs


Every technology doesn't have to be used in every situation.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Every technology doesn't have to be used in every situation.


Yeah, that’s ok with me but the current push is to entirely replace ICE with EV, and in the short term, not in a hundred years. I don’t see how that ever happens.


----------



## Harvey

DomB said:


> I thought this was interesting and worth sharing.


Probably not cool to post a full article, especially one that is likely behind a paywall. Not trying to be a jerk, but it's my butt on the line not yours. Can you ad a link and excerpt it?


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Yeah, that’s ok with me but the current push is to entirely replace ICE with EV, and in the short term, not in a hundred years. I don’t see how that ever happens.


Fear not, if it won't work, it won't happen.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Fear not, if it won't work, it won't happen.


I’m still curious what the supposed solution is. My guess is city people don’t get to have cars anymore


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> Yeah, that’s ok with me but the current push is to entirely replace ICE with EV, and in the short term, not in a hundred years. I don’t see how that ever happens.


I’m excited to see the change to electrification which I believe will happen very quickly. Relying on one type of technology or fuel source however is just plain dumb. Currently China is making all of the batteries and chips. When, not if, the grid goes down we’ll be super fucked. An electromagnetic bomb or hacker can knock that system down easy. A volcanic or nuclear winter will quickly make solar useless. These are some of the reasons the armed forces are overlooking electrification and are betting on hydrogen.


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> I’m still curious what the supposed solution is. My guess is city people don’t get to have cars anymore


Bikes and trains


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> Probably not cool to post a full article, especially one that is likely behind a paywall. Not trying to be a jerk, but it's my butt on the line not yours. Can you ad a link and excerpt it?


Harvey - sorry about that - I am happy to do that but not sure I know how to go back and change my post. If it is relevant information, as noted the article is from nytimes.com, which I believe allows free access to a number of articles per a month. Please let me know what I can do remedy. Thank you.


----------



## Harvey

That stuff happens in forums all the time. But it's not legal. Would someone go after me, probably not the NYT.

IMAGES are another story. There is a full business model of posting images people are likely to want to use. The company has not intention of ever actually selling the image. The money is made by lawyers following up and "settling." This cost our company $10k two years ago.

Here's the thing. A link BACK to the original source has SEO (google) value. One someone steals our content without asking, and they LINK back to us. I don't even bother to complain. And for NYT if you get their paywall message, they have an opportunity to sell you a subscription.

Email me the link I can add it.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> My guess is city people don’t get to have cars anymore


Kidding right?


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Kidding right?


Sort of I guess. Seriously asking a question that everybody’s ignoring though- how will working people that rent and park on the street live their lives with an EV? It’s a pretty important question.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Sort of I guess. Seriously asking a question that everybody’s ignoring though- how will working people that rent and park on the street live their lives with an EV? It’s a pretty important question.


Parking meters will be replaced with charging stations. It won't be cheap (add that cost to your total cost of ownership), especially after all the taxes are added in. 
Like you, I'm skeptical. Cautiously curious, and plan on staying with ICE trucks for years until if/when these things prove themselves.


----------



## Harvey

A guess, THB I have no idea:

The reason people don't have cars in the city is it's a PITA. Parking especially. The ones that do... if gas gets super cheap because demand is down, they'll probably continue to drive gassers or hybrids, which are well suited to the city. If the cost of gas goes way up because no one is supplying it anymore the rich will find a way to get outlets in their parking garages and the middle class and the poor will be forced to use electric mass transit. Then eventually parking meters will be electric.

ETA: haha Camp.

Tesla trying to work around chip shortage:









						Tesla sold 241,300 cars in the third quarter while other automakers saw big drops
					

It sold a record number of vehicles in the third quarter




					www.theverge.com


----------



## DomB

The one piece I am confident about in all this is that all of our predictions will be wrong. 

Mine especially. I thought I would have my car like a year ago. It is cool we are having the debate. 

On the city point guys, one interesting this is that if automakers adopt the model, you could have seriously cheaper EVs in the city; think of a Nissan Leaf - it has lower range but is perfect for a city grocery runner, etc.


----------



## DomB

Guys - since I have been in video mode lately: 

1) R1t Motortrend test part 3, going through blackbear pass at 12,000 feet in Telluride. Therefore small ski angle : )






2) Youtube videon about some EV enthusiasts trying to start a boycott against Toyota, which has finally announced they will make an EV. Why? In short, these folks think their has been a conspiracy to use hybrids to slow transition to EVs. Not sure how i feel about this but it is interesting.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> A guess, THB I have no idea:
> 
> The reason people don't have cars in the city is it's a PITA. Parking especially. The ones that do... if gas gets super cheap because demand is down, they'll probably continue to drive gassers or hybrids, which are well suited to the city. If the cost of gas goes way up because no one is supplying it anymore the rich will find a way to get outlets in their parking garages and the middle class and the poor will be forced to use electric mass transit. Then eventually parking meters will be electric.
> 
> ETA: haha Camp.
> 
> Tesla trying to work around chip shortage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla sold 241,300 cars in the third quarter while other automakers saw big drops
> 
> 
> It sold a record number of vehicles in the third quarter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theverge.com


This is interesting Harv, thanks. 

Here is a stat: GM sold 6.8m vehicles last year. Tesla has sold 627,000 vehicles through Q1-Q3 and is on track to hit the goal of increasing year over year sales by 50%. Profit of 1.1 bln on 13.1 billion of revenue - that is starting to sound like a real, profitable company . . . . 









						Tesla Deliveries Surge, Defying Supply-Chain Woes
					

The electric-vehicle maker provided a record number of vehicles in third quarter amid flagging global auto sales.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Ripitz

We don’t just need electric cars, we need fewer cars - Greenpeace International
					

Ever since the first production car rolled off the assembly line more than 100 years ago, our love affair with automobiles has grown and grown.




					www.greenpeace.org


----------



## MarzNC

Texas had electric railway lines in the early 20th century. Went pretty far out from Dallas or Houston.

Here's a glimpse at what's happening in other countries in terms of electrifying mass transit options.

October 3, 2021








						Trams, Cable Cars, Electric Ferries: How Cities Are Rethinking Transit (Published 2021)
					

Urban transportation is central to the effort to slow climate change. It can’t be done by just switching to electric cars. Several cities are starting to electrify mass transit.




					www.nytimes.com
				



_"The roar of engines has long been part of the soundscape of a city.

For a century, for billions of urban people worldwide, getting around has meant boarding a bus powered by diesel or an auto rickshaw that runs on gasoline, or among the affluent, a car.

Today, a quiet transformation is underway. Berlin, Bogotá and several other cities are taking creative steps to cut gas and diesel from their public transit systems. They are doing so despite striking differences in geography, politics and economics that complicate the transformation.

Berlin is reviving electric tram lines that were ripped out when the Berlin Wall went up. Bogotá is building cable cars that cut through the clouds to connect working-class communities perched on faraway hills. Bergen, a city by the fjords in western Norway, is moving its public ferries away from diesel and onto batteries — a remarkable shift in a petrostate that has for decades enriched itself from the sale of oil and gas and that now wants to be a leader in marine vessels for the electric age.

Bergen’s buses, too, are now electric, supplied by Chinese bus makers that have seized on the market in cities as far afield as Los Angeles and Santiago, Chile. The change is audible. “You can hear voices again in the streets,” said Jon Askeland, the mayor of the county that includes Bergen.

Urban transportation is central to the effort to slow climate change. Home to more than half the world’s population, cities account for more than two-thirds of global carbon dioxide emissions. And transportation is often the largest, and fastest growing, source, making it imperative to not only encourage more people to get out of their cars and into mass transit, but also to make transit itself less polluting and more efficient.
. . ."_


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> The one piece I am confident about in all this is that all of our predictions will be wrong.


QFT!!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> It's all good for the electric grid.


Musk says it needs to double??








						Elon Musk Says EVs Will Double World's Need for Electricity
					

On Tuesday, Tesla CEO Elon Musk stated that the world's electricity consumption would likely double as EVs become the norm.




					www.thetruthaboutcars.com


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Musk says it needs to double??


Would doubling your business be good for you??

mm


----------



## tirolski

Saw Nobel Prize winner Melvin Calvin give an invited lecture outside in the sunshine when Ole Miss dedicated their new chemistry building.
He won the prize for his photosynthetic pathway work.
Lecture discussed making oil cheaply from plants among other topics.
It was in the late 70s when some Arabs had embargoed oil and before folks worried about CO2.








						Fuel From Plants (Published 1979)
					

Article by Melvin Calvin and Genevieve J Calvin urges large-scale cultivation of carbohydrate- and hydrocarbon-producing plants as answer to energy shortages; drawing (M)




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Brownski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Would doubling your business be good for you??
> 
> mm


I don’t understand what you’re getting at. Do you mind expanding on this?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Would doubling your business be good for you??
> 
> mm


Huh?
You mentioned that the grid was good to go. Musk says it needs to double, which would lead me to believe that the grid is far from good to go.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> You mentioned that the grid was good to go. Musk says it needs to double, which would lead me to believe that the grid is far from good to go.


Musk said consumption would double. The grid runs at 35% capacity. Doubling consumption brings it to 70%. It's all good for the grid.

mm


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Musk said consumption would double. The grid runs at 35% capacity. Doubling consumption brings it to 70%. It's all good for the grid.
> 
> mm


Musk knows China and China has grid issues, allegedly.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/xi-jinpings-power-plays-collapse-chinas-electricity-grid/news-story/8dcefd6400a409d656a7ca1d5df118cf


----------



## Campgottagopee

Rivian details $1 billion loss, Amazon deal in IPO filing
					

Rivian Automotive, the maker of electric pickups backed by Amazon, disclosed a net loss of almost $1 billion in the first half of the year in its initial public offering paperwork.




					www.seattletimes.com


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Rivian details $1 billion loss, Amazon deal in IPO filing
> 
> 
> Rivian Automotive, the maker of electric pickups backed by Amazon, disclosed a net loss of almost $1 billion in the first half of the year in its initial public offering paperwork.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.seattletimes.com


Yikes!!


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Yikes!!


Amazon doesn’t need to but any either.
They do have an investment, allegedly.


----------



## tirolski

It ain’t Camp talkin, but it’s MrSubaru discussin Subie’s new 2023 Solterra EV.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Huh?
> You mentioned that the grid was good to go. Musk says it needs to double, which would lead me to believe that the grid is far from good to go.


I don't know the answer, but Musk often makes forward looking statements that with hindnsight end up not being true, to put it mildly. He also has an economic incentive to say that, as Tesla sells solar panels and batteries (which I think are quite good) - depending on how you view it, it increases the grid.


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> It ain’t Camp talkin, but it’s MrSubaru discussin Subie’s new 2023 Solterra EV.


Wha?!? Subie EV? Awesome. I have stopped researching them because of Rivian. 

For my next car it came down to Subaru Ascent, Highlander hybrid, or Rivian (when I was thinking in Spring 2019).


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> Amazon doesn’t need to but any either.
> They do have an investment, allegedly.


Yes - they own more than 5% of the company, which is disclosed in the prospectus. The way I read the disclosures (tail end of prospectus) is they don't have to buy, but if they don't buy they pay all of Rivian's development costs on the delivery truck. 

It makes sense that was the deal struck because (1) Amazon strikes hard bargains; (2) at the time, Rivian needed a strategic investor/customer like Amazon. Very few companies fit that bill.


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> It ain’t Camp talkin, but it’s MrSubaru discussin Subie’s new 2023 Solterra EV.


Sounds familiar! 

Not really an issue in NY - you either charge at home or go to these high speed chargers (some already built in NY) thanks to VW settlement money. I could go to Gore tomorrow (200 mi away) and back using these stations, though I'd have to go to Schroon lake (one is coming near West Mountain):

The map wasn't loading but here is an article from when the first high speed charger opened that includes a map. Rivian's have a massive battery and this would give you 120 miles of range in 20 min (probably fill a tesla in that period). These are OPEN chargers. 









NYPA's EVolve NY opens first of many 350kW charging stations that will blanket the state


I was on hand yesterday for the ribbon-cutting of EVolve NY’s first operable electric vehicle fast charging station in LaGrangeville,...




electrek.co


----------



## DomB

Leg 4 of TransaAmerica Trail (mostly Utah!) released:


----------



## DomB

Fair warning: puff piece about the trans america trail crossing in 5 minutes: 




Also, while I keep the faith, it seems to me that Rivian is prioritizing the Amazon vans and not the R1T or R1s orders. This makes complete business sense, as Rivian either needs to IPO (to get cash) or sell more equity or debt. Either involves keeping Amazon happy because (1) Amazon is a core investor with the closest thing to unlimited cash; and (2) Amazon has a good contract that doesn't obligate it to much, but if its orders represent 66% of all orders that Rivian has (100k vans versus 50k R1t and R1s).


----------



## Ripitz

I’ve been very impressed lately with regenerative breaking technology. We came down the Whiteface Veteran’s Memorial Highway yesterday using it. Our Mitsubishi Outlander is a PHEV with a small 25 mile range battery. When we went up we had no juice in the battery. Coming down we were able to charge the battery to 2/3 and never used the brakes. We made it to Keene 20 miles from the summit with 1/3 range left. I thought it was pretty cool to be able to harness that power and not smoke your brakes. Amazing views up there! The summit scramble is super fun.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> I’ve been very impressed lately with regenerative breaking technology. We came down the Whiteface Veteran’s Memorial Highway yesterday using it. Our Mitsubishi Outlander is a PHEV with a small 25 mile range battery. When we went up we had no juice in the battery. Coming down we were able to charge the battery to 2/3 and never used the brakes. We made it to Keene 20 miles from the summit with 1/3 range left. I thought it was pretty cool to be able to harness that power and not smoke your brakes.


One of the best things bout regenerative brakes is they don’t wear out as fast.


----------



## Ripitz

Ripitz said:


> breaking technology


----------



## DomB

Guys/Girls - since the IPO filing came out, I have been concerned that Rivian got Bezos'd (if that is a word): lots of cash for Rivian, lots of leverage for Amazon. 

Here is a well-known Youtuber's take that is largely consistent with that. The business incentive to me is that Rivian prioritizes the vans over the T/S consumer line. To be fair, I think the supply chain snafu and launch challenges played into this:


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> Guys/Girls - since the IPO filing came out, I have been concerned that Rivian got Bezos'd (if that is a word): lots of cash for Rivian, lots of leverage for Amazon.


Lots of Mom’s & Pop’s stores got Bezos’d too buy The Zon. 
He just must need mo money.


----------



## Campgottagopee

They better get this figured out or they won't last. 








						Detailer Makes Demolishing Analysis of Tesla's Build Quality
					

When people complain about paint issues, panel gaps, or other assembly issues in a Tesla, fans present the weirdest excuses for that. The most used is th...




					www.autoevolution.com


----------



## tirolski

Tesla is supposed to answer to the NTSB about their software download to fix issue with self driving missing emergency lights.








						Safety Regulator Questions Tesla on No Recall With Autopilot Update
					

U.S. safety investigators want to know why Tesla didn't file recall documents when it updated Autopilot software to better identify parked emergency




					www.insurancejournal.com


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> They better get this figured out or they won't last.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detailer Makes Demolishing Analysis of Tesla's Build Quality
> 
> 
> When people complain about paint issues, panel gaps, or other assembly issues in a Tesla, fans present the weirdest excuses for that. The most used is th...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.autoevolution.com


I definitely think they should fix these quality issues. But, from a supply and demand perspective, they don't have to fix them to thrive in the short to medium term. Tesla is the 7th largest weight in the S&P (which is based on market cap) - after google and before Nvidia. 

Long DomB detail:

While I believe the market would have punished a traditional automaker with these issues, it clearly is not punishing tesla. My guess why: there really is no competitor to tesla. If you want an ICE with range and performance, you sign onto noise, panel gaps, bad paint jobs:.

I am not saying it is ok, or even that I would, but that is what the market is saying. 

I am 41 and I will do my best to never buy a combustion vehicle again. If it continues to be the case that I can't get an electric, I will go Marcnc's route and go hybrid. 

Whether i am right or wrong, based on my own analysis, I believe the environmental impact of ICE at this time is far superior to a combustion over time and over life. Battery issues are real, but are being solved (and some would say solved now with second use designs).


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> I definitely think they should fix these quality issues. But, from a supply and demand perspective, they don't have to fix them to thrive in the short to medium term. Tesla is the 7th largest weight in the S&P (which is based on market cap) - after google and before Nvidia.
> 
> Long DomB detail:
> 
> While I believe the market would have punished a traditional automaker with these issues, it clearly is not punishing tesla. My guess why: there really is no competitor to tesla. If you want an ICE with range and performance, you sign onto noise, panel gaps, bad paint jobs:.
> 
> I am not saying it is ok, or even that I would, but that is what the market is saying.
> 
> I am 41 and I will do my best to never buy a combustion vehicle again. If it continues to be the case that I can't get an electric, I will go Marcnc's route and go hybrid.
> 
> Whether i am right or wrong, based on my own analysis, I believe the environmental impact of ICE at this time is far superior to a combustion over time and over life. Battery issues are real, but are being solved (and some would say solved now with second use designs).


I understand your position and point. That said, as a car guy who's seen this very sub-par fit and finish first hand, there's zero chance I'd settle for that. They have a long way to go before I'd even give them a nod, personally
Fit and finish is part of quality, Tesla ain't that.


----------



## G.ski

I won't buy crap just because it's the new "in" thing to do.

I'm guessing that EV technology, reliability, and quality will not be sufficiently developed to inspire me to buy an EV before I'm dead. More likely I will be forced to buy one because ICE vehicles will be outlawed.


----------



## Brownski

That’s about how I feel. I’m not thrilled with the idea of mounting a used car battery on my wall either


----------



## Campgottagopee

G.ski said:


> I won't buy crap just because it's the new "in" thing to do.
> 
> I'm guessing that EV technology, reliability, and quality will not be sufficiently developed to inspire me to buy an EV before I'm dead. More likely I will be forced to buy one because ICE vehicles will be outlawed.


No way will ICE be outlawed. Maybe in a 100 years, maybe.
Frankly Tesla should be embarrassed by this. Maybe they borrowed QC from Yugo


----------



## G.ski

lol Yugo


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> That’s about how I feel. I’m not thrilled with the idea of mounting a used car battery on my wall either


If you get solar panels, you would pay to do that potentially with a battery. It is not that different than a Tesla powerwall or other storage devices. That is what I was referring to as designed for second life use. 

Sun generates energy, panel converts to current; if you have no battery, it can power your house while sun up. If you have a battery, it can act like a generator in an outage, or you can engage in arbitrate and run battery when rates higher; or you can sign up for a system with your electric supplier where if there is demand, they pay your a premium to pull off your battery (NY does this now). 

Rivian designed their cars so that when the batteries are not sufficient for auto, they can be pulled out in modules and slotted into solar storage.


----------



## DomB

I have a kind of test drive on the R1T scheduled for next Friday. I thought I was smart because I scheduled near the beach hoping they would let me take it offroad on the deep, fun sand. 

Looks like someone beat me to it. The beach you see in the video is where I take the lifted CRV to fish. And where I see plenty of jeeps and F150s stuck.


----------



## x10003q

G.ski said:


> I won't buy crap just because it's the new "in" thing to do.
> 
> I'm guessing that EV technology, reliability, and quality will not be sufficiently developed to inspire me to buy an EV before I'm dead. More likely I will be forced to buy one because ICE vehicles will be outlawed.


There is no way to outlaw ICE vehicles. There are around 270 million ICE vehicles registered in the USA and they are still manufacturing new ones and they will continue to so for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Brownski

DomB said:


> If you get solar panels, you would pay to do that potentially with a battery. It is not that different than a Tesla powerwall or other storage devices. That is what I was referring to as designed for second life use.
> 
> Sun generates energy, panel converts to current; if you have no battery, it can power your house while sun up. If you have a battery, it can act like a generator in an outage, or you can engage in arbitrate and run battery when rates higher; or you can sign up for a system with your electric supplier where if there is demand, they pay your a premium to pull off your battery (NY does this now).
> 
> Rivian designed their cars so that when the batteries are not sufficient for auto, they can be pulled out in modules and slotted into solar storage.


I understand the theory. I’m skeptical, especially since “the batteries can be recycled into home storage” is generally offered as an alternative to putting them in a landfill. So the shit that is too toxic to throw out goes on the wall in my laundry room? Great idea. It’s an overly blithe answer to a real question.


----------



## Campgottagopee

G.ski said:


> lol Yugo


When they first came out Car and Driver did an article on them. The line that always stuck with me was they said the Yugo had, "same day acceleration".


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> I understand the theory. I’m skeptical, especially since “the batteries can be recycled into home storage” is generally offered as an alternative to putting them in a landfill. So the shit that is too toxic to throw out goes on the wall in my laundry room? Great idea. It’s an overly blithe answer to a real question.


I have to look up blithe, so that's cool - brain exercise. 

These are real issues; I don't think we can go status quo. My understanding (and have not looked back for a few months), but the battery storage for solar would have a longer life cycle. If it helps, I think people also put poweralls on the outside of their homes. I would probably put it in the garage or outside if I were doing it. 

I came very close to putting solar up, but the solar roof doesn't generate that much electric. And for me, before i would do solar panels, I probably would replace my roof, so it was just an economic choice on priorities. 

And I haven't seen a toxicity analysis for ICE cars, but 1 they end up in landfills too and 2 they cause lots of pollution, which has a lot of indirect/external costs that if you believe in climate change, we are seeing now.


----------



## DomB

x10003q said:


> There is no way to outlaw ICE vehicles. There are around 270 million ICE vehicles registered in the USA and they are still manufacturing new ones and they will continue to so for the foreseeable future.


Correct. Norway apparently has a very high adoption rate. I think all they did was not tax them, making them like 30% cheaper than a comparable ICE. 

So, you could either incentivize it, or, if you were willing to wait, do nothing. Just a matter of timing.


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> I understand the theory. I’m skeptical, especially since “the batteries can be recycled into home storage” is generally offered as an alternative to putting them in a landfill. So the shit that is too toxic to throw out goes on the wall in my laundry room? Great idea. It’s an overly blithe answer to a real question.


cheerful indifference so as to be improper. Ouch : )


----------



## Brownski

DomB said:


> cheerful indifference so as to be improper. Ouch : )


usually used as an adverb- as in blithely


----------



## DomB

EV Hummer and EV Rivian spotted in the wild next to each other. No retractable tail pipe needed:





__





Loading…






twitter.com


----------



## x10003q

DomB said:


> I have to look up blithe, so that's cool - brain exercise.
> 
> These are real issues; I don't think we can go status quo. My understanding (and have not looked back for a few months), but the battery storage for solar would have a longer life cycle. If it helps, I think people also put poweralls on the outside of their homes. I would probably put it in the garage or outside if I were doing it.


Putting a powerwall/battery outside would subject the battery to temps that would reduce its efficiency.


DomB said:


> I came very close to putting solar up, but the solar roof doesn't generate that much electric. And for me, before i would do solar panels, I probably would replace my roof, so it was just an economic choice on priorities.


Solar can generate plenty of electricity. In NJ, if you want to use the grid as a battery, you are allowed to put up a system that generates your previous years' usage. This essentially zeros your grid usage.


DomB said:


> And I haven't seen a toxicity analysis for ICE cars, but 1 they end up in landfills too and 2 they cause lots of pollution, which has a lot of indirect/external costs that if you believe in climate change, we are seeing now.


Very few ICE vehicles end up in landfills. They are mostly recycled.


----------



## DomB

Thanks 10003. I knew these points except for the last one about ICE cars being recycled - that is good to hear. 

The information /research I've seen says ICE batteries will also be recycled; I know, 'show me'. I can't. JB something, the number 2 or 3 at Tesla has started a company solely focused on recycling EV batters for second use life. Rivian designed the cars that way with modular battery cells (and one of the 6 or 7000 batteries powers a flashlight in the driver side door). 

Ny does a thing, too, where the grid can pull from your battery if there is a serious need. This happened like 4x last year; each time ends up being close to a non summer electric bill. So that's a thing if you consent to it that can generate dollars.


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> One of the best things bout regenerative brakes is they don’t wear out as fast.


Our prius has 120k still on the original brakes and it's a city car.

I thought ICE cars were recycled like 96% or something high.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> Our prius has 120k still on the original brakes and it's a city car.
> 
> I thought ICE cars were recycled like 96% or something high.


Sorry meant EV batteries will be recycled.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> EV Hummer and EV Rivian spotted in the wild next to each other. No retractable tail pipe needed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> twitter.com


Those self driving cars didn’t manage to park inside the designated spaces.
Or were they tryin not ta get scratched and/or dented?


----------



## Ripitz

Now, when EVs catch fire we can put them out with an electric fire truck.








‘Like a golf cart on steroids.’ NC fire chiefs experience a fully-electric fire truck — News & Observer


North Carolina fire chiefs saw and rode in one of the world’s first fully-electric fire trucks when Rosenbauer America brought one to Durham, NC, this week.




apple.news


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> Now, when EVs catch fire we can put them out with an electric fire truck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Like a golf cart on steroids.’ NC fire chiefs experience a fully-electric fire truck — News & Observer
> 
> 
> North Carolina fire chiefs saw and rode in one of the world’s first fully-electric fire trucks when Rosenbauer America brought one to Durham, NC, this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Hah, I live 20 min from Durham. Compared to Raleigh, Durham has been way ahead in terms of doing things differently in the last 10-20 years.

_". . .
Rosenbauer has started to sell the all-electric trucks; the first went into service in Berlin, Germany, last winter, followed by one each in Amsterdam and Dubai. The City of Los Angeles will begin using the first American version early next year, and the company plans to begin building them at its plant in Minnesota in 2023, said Mark Fusco, vice president of sales and marketing.

The truck has a six-cylinder BMW diesel engine, but that’s used only to recharge the batteries. It kicks on automatically when the batteries are at 20%. In 440 fire calls in Berlin, the engine came on only twice, Fusco said, and both times it was as the truck was returning to the station.

Without a large diesel engine and powertrain, the Rosenbauer electric truck is shorter than other fire trucks and sits lower to the ground. When the truck is parked, the step in and out of the crew compartment is only 7 inches off the ground, which is safer and easier for firefighters carrying heavy gear. The hydraulic suspension will lift the truck up to 30 inches off the ground for high water and other obstacles.

The truck is also silent while parked and nearly so while in motion, so firefighters can “use their inside voices” on their way to a call, said Tripp Evans, president of the company that will sell the trucks in North Carolina.
. . ."_


----------



## Campgottagopee

Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were surprising


In a study of some gas cars released by Anderson Economic Group, it can cost considerably more to drive an EV — until infrastructure improves.



www.freep.com


----------



## Ripitz

Yikes. NY is not too far behind.








California Enacts Ban on Gas-Powered Lawn Mowers, Leaf Blowers


State claims an hour using a gas leaf blower makes as much pollution as driving a 2016 Toyota Camry 1100 miles, so it's electric lawn equipment only after 2024.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## jasonwx

Ripitz said:


> Yikes. NY is not too far behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California Enacts Ban on Gas-Powered Lawn Mowers, Leaf Blowers
> 
> 
> State claims an hour using a gas leaf blower makes as much pollution as driving a 2016 Toyota Camry 1100 miles, so it's electric lawn equipment only after 2024.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.caranddriver.com


Can’t say I disagree


----------



## DomB

Guys, I did my kind of test drive today. It was insane. Here are the highlights: 

****
All - I had my test drive today. Summary: This thing is going to be worth the wait. Here are my impressions:

-Insane performance. I am coming from a 2011 Honda CRV. I drove on Ocean Parkway on Long Island, which has little traffic. Did 0-60 and the first time, my wife and daughter were literally squealing with (I think) delight. I am not that dramatic, but the first time, I shouted out Holy ____. It literally feels like a roller coaster.

-Insane turning radius. I had a great 'guide'. I told him I would drive aggressively. Gave him the heads up and the first thing I did was jam the steering wheel to the side in sport mode in a large parking lot to get it to skid. It held a perfect turn in a small radius (relatively speaking). Because they did not allow me to go onto the beach, I did the entire test in sport mode. WOW.

-the AT tires are so cool looking. If in doubt, get the 20s

-Info:

--they were not aware of any nonemployee deliveries in NY yet.
--they are driving about a month in NY with 5 vehicles with a handful of appointments a day per a week, two or three days a week.
--Alexa integration - you will be able to control some features by voice, but they did not know if for example, you could say, Alexa, turn up my heat to my house, and it would work. Would seem like an eventual no brainer to me.
--The fit and finish is amazing. I opened the gear tunnel cabin area slot door thing, and the stiches in the seat were great.
--Ridiculous visibility - I am 5/9; the front is curved down. I don't think I have been in a vehicle with that much visibility
--People talked about the plastic roll thingies. They actually look quite nice in person.
--Conserve mode will come on all vehicles. It switches between front wheel and rear wheel motors when you are driving to minimize energy. Confirmed the higher mileage we saw in offroad videos was on conserve mode.
--Very, very comfortable seats. Rear seat more comfortable than most front seats I'd say, but i don't drive fancy cars much.
--Second room has more leg room than my 2011 crv has front row leg room.
--This thing is a beat.
--Employees are working in Brooklyn but it is not open to the public yet.


----------



## G.ski

Ripitz said:


> Yikes. NY is not too far behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California Enacts Ban on Gas-Powered Lawn Mowers, Leaf Blowers
> 
> 
> State claims an hour using a gas leaf blower makes as much pollution as driving a 2016 Toyota Camry 1100 miles, so it's electric lawn equipment only after 2024.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.caranddriver.com


When it happens that's when I move to Arizona and have a desert pebble landscape.


----------



## tirolski

Gasoline will evaporate very slowly from ICE vehicles.
EV lose charge while parked for extended periods, especially if parked in the cold. Opposite gasoline evaporation.








Do Electric Cars Lose Charge When Parked? | Gear and Cylinder


Every electric car owner or individual considering purchasing an electric car is worried about running out of charge. This could leave you stranded somewhere. Unlike…




gearandcylinder.com


----------



## Ripitz

Ripitz said:


> I agree that the large solar arrays can be eyesores. The ground underneath ends up being a waste of space which is a shame especially if it is good pasture. Most of them are mowed by man and machine which I think is wasteful. I’ve seen some with sheep grazing under them which to me looks like the best arrangement. The panels give them shade and shelter from the elements. It wouldn’t replace the mowing entirely but would certainly decrease the need. In an ideal situation you could add broilers and egg layers too. The same space could produce power, meat, eggs, and fiber.











When these solar farms need their grass cut, they call in some woolly landscapers — Fast Company


On some solar farms in New York state, sheep act as landscapers, grazing among the solar panels to manage vegetation. It’s a way to manage industrial-scale solar arrays without the use of fossil fuel-powered equipment like lawn mowers, and it provides an opportunity for local farmers to earn...




apple.news


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> When these solar farms need their grass cut, they call in some woolly landscapers — Fast Company
> 
> 
> On some solar farms in New York state, sheep act as landscapers, grazing among the solar panels to manage vegetation. It’s a way to manage industrial-scale solar arrays without the use of fossil fuel-powered equipment like lawn mowers, and it provides an opportunity for local farmers to earn...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Ya can use goats for ski trail clearin too.








Goatscaping at Mountain Creek


Goatscaping at Mountain Creek where goats do the job of clearing over grown brush and grass from the resort.




www.njherald.com


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> When these solar farms need their grass cut, they call in some woolly landscapers — Fast Company
> 
> 
> On some solar farms in New York state, sheep act as landscapers, grazing among the solar panels to manage vegetation. It’s a way to manage industrial-scale solar arrays without the use of fossil fuel-powered equipment like lawn mowers, and it provides an opportunity for local farmers to earn...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news





Ripitz said:


> I agree that the large solar arrays can be eyesores. The ground underneath ends up being a waste of space which is a shame especially if it is good pasture. Most of them are mowed by man and machine which I think is wasteful. I’ve seen some with sheep grazing under them which to me looks like the best arrangement. The panels give them shade and shelter from the elements. It wouldn’t replace the mowing entirely but would certainly decrease the need. In an ideal situation you could add broilers and egg layers too. The same space could produce power, meat, eggs, and fiber.


Go watch Jeremy Clarkson's Farm if you want to understand why sheep are difficult and expensive to use.




__





Watch Clarkson's Farm – Season 1 | Prime Video


An intense, arduous and frequently hilarious year in the life of Britain’s most unlikely farmer, Jeremy Clarkson. Join Jeremy and his rag-tag band of agricultural associates as they face-up to a backdrop of unhelpful weather, disobedient animals, unresponsive crops and an unexpected pandemic...



www.amazon.com


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> Go watch Jeremy Clarkson's Farm if you want to understand why sheep are difficult and expensive to use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch Clarkson's Farm – Season 1 | Prime Video
> 
> 
> An intense, arduous and frequently hilarious year in the life of Britain’s most unlikely farmer, Jeremy Clarkson. Join Jeremy and his rag-tag band of agricultural associates as they face-up to a backdrop of unhelpful weather, disobedient animals, unresponsive crops and an unexpected pandemic...
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


I grew up a shepherd and was involved in 4H for many years. In my adult life I created a successful sheep program while making wine at a local winery. Yes, it is difficult and yes, there isn’t a lot of money in it. That’s the way farming is unfortunately. It doesn’t mean it’s not viable or without benefits. Success can be measured many different ways. I’m sure Clarkson is entertaining but I won’t be looking to him for advice on sheep. Haven’t paid attention to him since he got chased out of Argentina by a rock throwing mob.


----------



## Brownski

Some comedian used to do a bit about Patrick Swaze being a one dimensional actor. He would ask the audience for a profession and then pretend to be Swaze doing the role. The night we were there, when he asked for a profession, my buddy yelled out “a shepherd!” The guys starts saying “um where are my sheep…” then he gave up and was like “fuck I can’t do a shepherd- that’s funnier than my whole act.”


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> I grew up a shepherd and was involved in 4H for many years. In my adult life I created a successful sheep program while making wine at a local winery. Yes, it is difficult and yes, there isn’t a lot of money in it. That’s the way farming is unfortunately. It doesn’t mean it’s not viable or without benefits. Success can be measured many different ways. I’m sure Clarkson is entertaining but I won’t be looking to him for advice on sheep. Haven’t paid attention to him since he got chased out of Argentina by a rock throwing mob.


What were the sheep doing at the winery?


----------



## Ripitz

Eating grass is the short story. I’ll break out another thread if you are genuinely interested in hearing the rest.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Yikes. NY is not too far behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California Enacts Ban on Gas-Powered Lawn Mowers, Leaf Blowers
> 
> 
> State claims an hour using a gas leaf blower makes as much pollution as driving a 2016 Toyota Camry 1100 miles, so it's electric lawn equipment only after 2024.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.caranddriver.com


I really hope you're wrong. So many people will be out of business if this crap happens.
Other than landscapers, who the heck uses a leaf blower for an hour? Screw California.


----------



## DomB

Folks: CEO of VW posted that the ID4 EV is 30% cheaper or so than Tiguan to drive. Looks like Tiguan is their most popular car. Interesting. Also, according to the same vid, Tesla hit an annual production rate of 1M cars.


----------



## jasonwx

Hertz announced it will start renting Tesla’s in November


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Hertz announced it will start renting Tesla’s in November


Hertz and Enterprise have been buying up used Tesla's at auctions so not surprised by this at all. I doubt if they'll be getting new ones as they aren't getting cars from any other manufacture right now.


----------



## x10003q

jasonwx said:


> Hertz announced it will start renting Tesla’s in November


Leave it with a full battery will be a whole new type of time consuming, expensive headache at drop off.


----------



## Brownski

x10003q said:


> Leave it with a full battery will be a whole new type of time consuming, expensive headache at drop off.


I was wondering if Tesla has agreed to install chargers at the rental locations? Seems like they’d be needed if this is more than a PR stunt right?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Hertz orders 100,000 Tesla vehicles for end of 2022; Tesla's worth reaches $1 trillion


News of the deal sparked a surge in Tesla's stock price, giving the automaker a market valuation north of $1 trillion for the first time. Hertz's move could box out other competitors from getting Teslas in their fleets in the near term.




www.autonews.com


----------



## Brownski

Huh, there you go. Looks like they’re paying full price for the cars and installing their own chargers. Good read. At least people will be able to easily try out EVs without going all in on a new car. Should be interesting.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Hertz orders 100,000 Tesla vehicles for end of 2022; Tesla's worth reaches $1 trillion
> 
> 
> News of the deal sparked a surge in Tesla's stock price, giving the automaker a market valuation north of $1 trillion for the first time. Hertz's move could box out other competitors from getting Teslas in their fleets in the near term.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.autonews.com


The old head of ORDA was CEO of Avis, so there’s that.



https://www.bizjournals.com/albany/news/2011/03/15/olympic-authority-in-lake-place-names.html


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Looks like they’re paying full price for the cars


We'll see what happens. Unless something changes, I can't imagine a manufacturer giving up that many units to a fleet deal. That makes no sense. Right now it's lip service. Time will tell.


----------



## DomB

All - regarding the range anxiety issues, I saw that NY opened a high speed (350kw) charge station in Castleton-on-Hudson. Coming from Long Island, it will take me a total of 1 mile out of my way up to Gore, about 150 miles in with 90 miles to Gore. It looks like that station went live in the last week or so. 

Even assuming a worse case scenario of 60% (187 miles on 312 miles) of range in cold weather, that would involve a 20 minute stop to charge and then heading up to Gore with a reasonable amount left in the battery. If you have access to even a relatively slow level 2 charger up there, pretty easy to leave with a high level of charge. This isn't much longer than a gas stop in my family, especially if someone needs to use restrooms.

More chargers will come on line, making the back and forth relatively easy. One in Clifton Park is slated to open this year (and so far they have been sticking to or ahead of schedule on the chargers).

Pretty exciting: 









EVolve NY Planned Sites - Google My Maps


List of upcoming EVolve NY Sites




www.google.com


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> I really hope you're wrong. So many people will be out of business if this crap happens.
> Other than landscapers, who the heck uses a leaf blower for an hour? Screw California.


They are called leaves because you should leave them. 

I think they were just using an hour as a metric. We switched to electric blowers three years ago. Never going back. We rarely use them for more than 45 minutes at a time. 3 hours at most over the course of an entire day. We use two backpack batteries. As one is being used the other is being charged. We have a gasser as a backup or if the grid goes down. Never use it. They should make gas really expensive, not ban ICEs. They are overlooking the fact that carbon neutral, renewable biofuels can be run in these motors. Yes, NY is next.








New York law phases out most gas-powered vehicles by 2035


The new law could be a shot in the arm for automakers selling or planning electric vehicles




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Tjf1967

DomB said:


> All - regarding the range anxiety issues, I saw that NY opened a high speed (350kw) charge station in Castleton-on-Hudson. Coming from Long Island, it will take me a total of 1 mile out of my way up to Gore, about 150 miles in with 90 miles to Gore. It looks like that station went live in the last week or so.
> 
> Even assuming a worse case scenario of 60% (187 miles on 312 miles) of range in cold weather, that would involve a 20 minute stop to charge and then heading up to Gore with a reasonable amount left in the battery. If you have access to even a relatively slow level 2 charger up there, pretty easy to leave with a high level of charge. This isn't much longer than a gas stop in my family, especially if someone needs to use restrooms.
> 
> More chargers will come on line, making the back and forth relatively easy. One in Clifton Park is slated to open this year (and so far they have been sticking to or ahead of schedule on the chargers).
> 
> Pretty exciting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EVolve NY Planned Sites - Google My Maps
> 
> 
> List of upcoming EVolve NY Sites
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


At the two truck per day they are building yours is right around the corner. Lol. They better get their shit together


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> At the two truck per day they are building yours is right around the corner. Lol. They better get their shit together


I don't necessarily think I am right around the corner. I think there is a 15-30% chance of really long delays. But what do I know? 

There is a guy who ordered a month before me, R1T launch edition, same geography, and as of a week ago, Rivian was sticking with delivering to him in October, so a handful of days left. 

If they kept to that schedule on my order, I'd expect it January -March. Right now I think it is 50/50 if I get it this winter. Time will tell one way or the other. 65% guess that I get it in 2022. 

At some point, the CRV will demand more repair money. Then I will have a choice. That could be a few years away given its reliability to date.


----------



## Brownski

I think Clifton Park will be more useful than Castleton.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I think Clifton Park will be more useful than Castleton.


As long as there's power


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> They are called leaves because you should leave them.
> 
> I think they were just using an hour as a metric. We switched to electric blowers three years ago. Never going back. We rarely use them for more than 45 minutes at a time. 3 hours at most over the course of an entire day. We use two backpack batteries. As one is being used the other is being charged. We have a gasser as a backup or if the grid goes down. Never use it. They should make gas really expensive, not ban ICEs. They are overlooking the fact that carbon neutral, renewable biofuels can be run in these motors. Yes, NY is next.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New York law phases out most gas-powered vehicles by 2035
> 
> 
> The new law could be a shot in the arm for automakers selling or planning electric vehicles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Reminds me of the APA
Not a fan


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> They are called leaves because you should leave them.


Run em over with the mower that blows some around the bushes.
Instant mulch. 
Plants’ll thank ya later.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tesla increases car prices again... again


The cost hikes are hitting the Model S and Model X this time around.




www.inputmag.com


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Tesla increases car prices again... again
> 
> 
> The cost hikes are hitting the Model S and Model X this time around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.inputmag.com


Someone’s gotta pay for those rockets


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Tesla increases car prices again... again
> 
> 
> The cost hikes are hitting the Model S and Model X this time around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.inputmag.com


Balance: ICE automakers are shipping fancy cars without functions (like GM shipping Caddy's without lane keeping) due to chip shortages, and trucks without paid-for functions that increase efficiency, again due to supply chain issues. 

Tesla just got a reportedly un discounted order for 1/9 of its annual production. It won't be shipping newly ordered Ys until May. 

So increased demand, decreased supply, and actually delivering the functionality of the car promised (vs many ICE automakers). That suggests price increases are logical. 

The difference here, is there is no rebate system or dealer network that while providing service as you noted, obscures true pricing. I don't have numbers, but anyone I talk to who is buying new is paying thousands over MSRP. This is a 2,000 price increase on a 3 or a Y. 

I don't like price increases, but they are endemic to the Covid/supply chain ridden economy.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Balance: ICE automakers are shipping fancy cars without functions (like GM shipping Caddy's without lane keeping) due to chip shortages, and trucks without paid-for functions that increase efficiency, again due to supply chain issues.


We've gotten along for years and years without that crap. I turn it off on every truck I drive.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> but anyone I talk to who is buying new is paying thousands over MSRP


Depends on your market and your dealer. In our market, and with our owner, nobody pays more than MSRP. It' doesn't sit well with him and in our small piece of the world our customers wouldn't stand for it.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Depends on your market and your dealer. In our market, and with our owner, nobody pays more than MSRP. It' doesn't sit well with him and in our small piece of the world our customers wouldn't stand for it.


100%


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> We've gotten along for years and years without that crap. I turn it off on every truck I drive.


You're right. If I ever get a vehicle that has it, I will gladly use it on the long stretches to Gore. That is pretty much the only reason it interests me. It is not practical for day to day driving (and except for Summer and Winter, I can go weeks without driving by walking, biking, training, or asking my wife to drive on the few weekend trips we take).


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> We've gotten along for years and years without that crap. I turn it off on every truck I drive.


My Mazda has all that stuff
The incessant beeping was driving me crazy I shut the system off


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> You're right. If I ever get a vehicle that has it, I will gladly use it on the long stretches to Gore. That is pretty much the only reason it interests me. It is not practical for day to day driving (and except for Summer and Winter, I can go weeks without driving by walking, biking, training, or asking my wife to drive on the few weekend trips we take).


I feel it creates lazy drivers, having less and less people pay attention to the road isn't a good thing. I was driving down RT 81 the other day and noticed this dude in a Tesla eating some kind of noodle bowl while his car was driving itself. Screw that! Talk about an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> I feel it creates lazy drivers, having less and less people pay attention to the road isn't a good thing. I was driving down RT 81 the other day and noticed this dude in a Tesla eating some kind of noodle bowl while his car was driving itself. Screw that! Talk about an accident waiting to happen.


I’m sure the number of accidents due to people eating food is very high. Not to mention cellphones and texting. If the car drives itself it will probably be safer. You can get a ticket for eating a sandwich. I know someone who got one.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> If the car drives itself it will probably be safer


I respectfully disagree. I trust man more than machine.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> I respectfully disagree. I trust man more than machine.


Mixing the two of them together is the best of both worlds. How else do you expect people to eat their noodle soup while driving?


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Tjf1967 said:


> Mixing the two of them together is the best of both worlds. How else do you expect people to eat their noodle soup while driving?


Mixing is best. Otherwise, you're trusting people (or A.I. machine) to imagine all possible scenarios for potential accidents. Between working with software developers and those Farmers' Insurance ads, I think I've seen enough to know that imaginations of testers and A.I. is not sufficient enough.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> I respectfully disagree. I trust man more than machine.


With all due respect, maybe we can agree that robots don’t eat French fries while driving.


----------



## Ripitz

Uh-oh








						Rivian had a 'small' battery fire at its electric pickup truck factory — Electrek
					

Rivian had a ‘small’ battery fire at its electric pickup truck factory in Normal, Illionois, according to the local fire department.




					apple.news


----------



## Sbob

Ripitz said:


> Uh-oh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rivian had a 'small' battery fire at its electric pickup truck factory — Electrek
> 
> 
> Rivian had a ‘small’ battery fire at its electric pickup truck factory in Normal, Illionois, according to the local fire department.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Uh-oh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rivian had a 'small' battery fire at its electric pickup truck factory — Electrek
> 
> 
> Rivian had a ‘small’ battery fire at its electric pickup truck factory in Normal, Illionois, according to the local fire department.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


That sucks


----------



## tirolski

The earth is 3/4 water.
These folks make hybrid power systems for yachts and conversions for yer old.








						Hybrid Yacht Propulsion - e-Motion Hybrid Systems
					

e-Motion Hybrid Systems. The only marine hybrid propulsion system fitting into existing engine rooms of all serial production yachts.




					www.e-motion-hybrid.com


----------



## DomB

This is a long (30 min) but interesting discussion of the Cybertruck, f150 lightening, and Rivian from one of the few people that has driven or been in all three. 









						R1T vs. Cybertruck vs. F150 Lightning:  Ben Sullins' thoughts after riding in each
					

Bummer about March 1, 2022.




					www.rivianforums.com


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> This is a long (30 min) but interesting discussion of the Cybertruck, f150 lightening, and Rivian from one of the few people that has driven or been in all three.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R1T vs. Cybertruck vs. F150 Lightning:  Ben Sullins' thoughts after riding in each
> 
> 
> Bummer about March 1, 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com


----------



## MarzNC

@DomB : now that you have made me curious . . . came across this video that shows the interior storage for the R1T. Very different from the standard compact pickup. The reviewer had one for 24 hours.


----------



## MarzNC

Just for fun I'm paying attention to the Aussie thread about EVs. The guys liked the Rivian videos.

They are excited about the idea that Tesla said Superchargers will be accessible by other EVs soon, supposedly late 2021 when there was a Tweet.

July 22, 2021








Tesla’s big backflip a win for Aussies


Tesla is about to change one of its most polarising features.




www.news.com.au


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tight bolts are important









Tesla Issues Serious Recall On Model 3 And Model Y EVs


Recalls by automakers are nothing new and certainly not limited to traditional combustion vehicles alone. One of the biggest recalls in recent memory was GM…




www.slashgear.com


----------



## DomB

Rivian is increasing their rate of production, with about 170 built in October or about 5 per day. And apparently some non-employee customers received delivery. Their 'intent' would then go to about 20 per day before year end to produce 1200 R1ts by year end. As TJ noted, they were producing 1-2 vehicles a day when they first filed. 

From page 1 of the S-1 amendment filed today ( https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001874178/000119312521315537/d157488ds1a.htm )

*. *. *. 

In the consumer market, we launched the R1 platform with our first-generation consumer vehicle, the R1T, a two-row five-passenger pickup truck, and began making customer deliveries in September 2021. As of September 30, 2021, we produced 12 R1Ts and delivered 11 R1Ts, and as of October 31, 2021, we produced 180 R1Ts and delivered 156 R1Ts. Nearly all of these vehicles were delivered to Rivian employees, and we expect to ramp deliveries to third-party customers as we increase our production rate. We plan to launch and commence customer deliveries for the R1S, a three-row seven-passenger sports utility vehicle (“SUV”) in December 2021 following the completion of ongoing vehicle validation and all required testing. By the end of 2021, we intend to produce approximately 1,200 R1Ts and 25 R1Ss and deliver approximately 1,000 R1Ts and 15 R1Ss.


----------



## DomB

This is somewhat interesting. Here is a youtube from three guys who have a very pro Rivian youtube. Rivian seems to be pushing out another delay without saying so. These guys seem visibly upset. It will be interesting to see what happens to preorders over time with more and more delays. Some people (and it seems like maybe this happened to TJ to some degree) will just need to make a choice on buying a new vehicle. 

Customer communication already seemed to be a weak point. The CEO signed an email in the Summer saying they would not delay further; a commitment not made. 

I am not judging, but their body language looks visibly upset. 









Youtubers discuss delay


Sorry if this has been posted already. Nothing really new here, just noting that the lack of communication and they all seem resigned to a much longer wait than anticipated.




www.rivianforums.com


----------



## Tjf1967

Thats what happened to ne. I needed a new vehicle. Can't wait forever for a company to get their shit together. Them going public with a valuation the size of Honda seems plain stupid to me. They make themselves seem like the next Tesla but all they are is a car company. They don't make rockets. They don't make solar roofs and they don't have elan musk. That stock is enticing but my brain tells me be very careful.


----------



## jasonwx

I just don’t see laying out almost 100k for a product from a start up
I’m all for ev’s but this doesn’t sound good


----------



## Ripitz

Sacrilege!








Ford shows off new EV crate engine at SEMA with slick '78 pickup swap


The Mustang Mach-E GT Performance motor is now available via Ford Performance Parts




driving.ca




It got me thinking, why don’t we see conversions go the other way? Has anyone jammed a V8 into a Prius? Yes, of course!


----------



## G.ski

Ripitz said:


> Sacrilege!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ford shows off new EV crate engine at SEMA with slick '78 pickup swap
> 
> 
> The Mustang Mach-E GT Performance motor is now available via Ford Performance Parts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> driving.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It got me thinking, why don’t we see conversions go the other way? Has anyone jammed a V8 into a Prius? Yes, of course!


The ultimate sleeper.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Thats what happened to ne. I needed a new vehicle. Can't wait forever for a company to get their shit together. Them going public with a valuation the size of Honda seems plain stupid to me. They make themselves seem like the next Tesla but all they are is a car company. They don't make rockets. They don't make solar roofs and they don't have elan musk. That stock is enticing but my brain tells me be very careful.


Rt on 
That's all any of these things are. Just a car or truck. 
Drive what trips your trigger.


----------



## TonyC

Harvey said:


> What makes a charger bad, or good?


I have used Tesla superchargers 300x. I've never been interrupted by a charger completely out of order and only 4x had to wait for a stall because all were occupied. You pull in to a stall and plug in. No credit card interface or third party app required. Also most third party chargers are level 2 and far slower than superchargers. Only Electrify America (funded by the VW dieselgate settlement) offers high speed charging comparable to Tesla. EA's network is not yet as extensive and by word of mouth is less reliable.

I have been driving Tesla on Mammoth ski trips (320 miles each way) since April 2016. The charge stop in Lone Pine on the way up was 45 minutes in the 2016 car but is barely 15 in the 2019 car with 1/3 more range and 50% faster charging speed.

I also drove the 2019 Tesla round trip from SoCal to Florida in 2020, over 8,000 miles total with as much as 740 miles in one day.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> I was involved in supplying bulk electricity to industrial users in the 1990s. It was a different planet then.


Cranberry Lake hydroelectric plant could use some fixin up.
Fed’s are gonna fine them for lack of safety repairs, allegedly.
Isn’t hydropower cheap, clean and reliable?








Feds threaten licensee of 'high hazard' Cranberry Lake dam with $600k penalty


Former Cranberry Lake dam operator pursued by feds after failing to make repairs, allegedly violating license




www.adirondackexplorer.org


----------



## Campgottagopee

Too funny not to share
While walking through our shop I stopped to visit with our Master Subaru Tech. He's in the middle of putting a new wiring harness in a plug in hybrid. I asked him, how's it going?? His reply -- "If this is our future we're going to be doing alot of fuckin walking". ?


----------



## Ripitz

Walking is good for you.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Walking is good for you.


Yup and we invented horses.


----------



## DomB

DomB said:


> Rivian is increasing their rate of production, with about 170 built in October or about 5 per day. And apparently some non-employee customers received delivery. Their 'intent' would then go to about 20 per day before year end to produce 1200 R1ts by year end. As TJ noted, they were producing 1-2 vehicles a day when they first filed.
> 
> From page 1 of the S-1 amendment filed today ( https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001874178/000119312521315537/d157488ds1a.htm )
> 
> *. *. *.
> 
> In the consumer market, we launched the R1 platform with our first-generation consumer vehicle, the R1T, a two-row five-passenger pickup truck, and began making customer deliveries in September 2021. As of September 30, 2021, we produced 12 R1Ts and delivered 11 R1Ts, and as of October 31, 2021, we produced 180 R1Ts and delivered 156 R1Ts. Nearly all of these vehicles were delivered to Rivian employees, and we expect to ramp deliveries to third-party customers as we increase our production rate. We plan to launch and commence customer deliveries for the R1S, a three-row seven-passenger sports utility vehicle (“SUV”) in December 2021 following the completion of ongoing vehicle validation and all required testing. By the end of 2021, we intend to produce approximately 1,200 R1Ts and 25 R1Ss and deliver approximately 1,000 R1Ts and 15 R1Ss.


Rivian update: 

1. Bad-looking whistleblower claim by what I think was one of the top female executives at Rivian was filed. 
2. Rivian updated its SEC filing. It is producing 100 R1 vehicles per week now, with the ramp goal of 1300 / week.
3. Interestingly, the Amazon type van has a higher goal, making some thing Rivian will announce a large non-Amazon van order.


----------



## DomB

DomB said:


> Rivian update:
> 
> 1. Bad-looking whistleblower claim by what I think was one of the top female executives at Rivian was filed.
> 2. Rivian updated its SEC filing. It is producing 100 R1 vehicles per week now, with the ramp goal of 1300 / week.
> 3. Interestingly, the Amazon type van has a higher goal, making some thing Rivian will announce a large non-Amazon van order.


Interesting quote from the summary - if they are correct, Normal Illinois will have a lot of jobs (plant location); they have filed to expand that plant. It is an old Mitisubishi plant that closed some time ago: 





__





Loading…






www.sec.gov





****

Our diverse product portfolio and focus on inspiring people to get out and explore the world positions us to build an enduring brand while addressing a wide range of future mobility and sustainability solutions. Through our base of preorders, we observe strong affinity for our brand which we expect to intensify as brand awareness grows and we welcome new customers to the Rivian community. As of October 31, 2021, we had approximately 55,400 R1T and R1S preorders in the United States and Canada from customers who each paid a cancellable and fully refundable deposit of $1,000. We believe the combination of our deep focus on addressing climate change, building compelling products, and delivering a superior customer experience will enable Rivian to drive adoption and customer loyalty, powering our continued growth.

Based on our current production forecast, we expect to fill our preorder backlog of approximately 55,400 R1 vehicles by the end of 2023. Our manufacturing facility in Normal, Illinois (the “Normal Factory”) is currently equipped to produce up to 150,000 vehicles annually (distributed between the R1 platform, which will be used to produce the R1T and R1S, and the RCV platform, which will be used to produce EDVs and other commercial vehicles), when the equipment is operated at full rate and on multiple shifts. The current annual installed capacity for the R1 platform and RCV platform is approximately 65,000 and 85,000 vehicles, respectively. We produced 104 R1T vehicles during the last week of October 2021, representing approximately 8% of our target R1 production rate. Our target is to produce approximately

5​


Table of Contents​1,310 R1 vehicles a week, which when annualized (assuming 49.6 working weeks per year), equates to the current installed R1 platform capacity of approximately 65,000 R1 vehicles annually. With respect to the RCV platform, our target is to produce approximately 1,710 commercial vehicles (including EDVs) a week, which when annualized (assuming 49.6 working weeks per year), equates to the current installed RCV platform capacity of approximately 85,000 vehicles annually. We expect our vehicle production rate will improve as we continue to increase the speed of the line, hire and train employees to run additional shifts, commence production of the R1S and EDVs, and increase the rate of purchased materials from our supply chain. We expect to reach a vehicle production rate, which, when annualized, would result in us using 100% of the facility’s current installed capacity of up to 150,000 vehicles by late 2023.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> Rivian update:
> 
> 1. Bad-looking whistleblower claim by what I think was one of the top female executives at Rivian was filed.


In her own words, allegedly:




__





Life Outside the Boys Club: Why I Spoke Up About Rivian’s Toxic Bro Culture (and Got Fired).


Women are not given the linear paths to success that many men take for granted. My 20-year journey in the automotive industry began with an…




medium.com


----------



## MarzNC

These two videos are by the same man. He had put money down on an R1T in June 2021. But is changing his mind and ordering an R1S instead. A big reason to change is that it's his wife who needs a work truck and the old Tacoma she had died a few months ago. Second video is his review after being invited to a Rivian event in Sept 2021 in Colorado for the R1T. From what I can tell, there were 8 influencers invited. He is not an off-roader at all. He's a Californian Tesla owner who probably bought one of the first models. Skip to Minute 7 if all you want to know is more about the R1S.


----------



## Ripitz

US-built electric motorcycle company Volcon unveils nationwide dealership plan, stock soars


Volcon appears to be shipping its first electric motorcycle model as fast as it can produce them in its Texas factory. But soon the company will have a dealership network that should make it even easier for prospective riders to test out and ride off with their own Grunt electric motorcycle. The...




electrek.co




Wish I had bought the stock.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> US-built electric motorcycle company Volcon unveils nationwide dealership plan, stock soars
> 
> 
> Volcon appears to be shipping its first electric motorcycle model as fast as it can produce them in its Texas factory. But soon the company will have a dealership network that should make it even easier for prospective riders to test out and ride off with their own Grunt electric motorcycle. The...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wish I had bought the stock.


Their UTV's look cool


----------



## DomB

This is interesting - it looks like it only covers cost to fuel, not savings in maintenance. Headline - at home charging in substantially cheaper than gas; long haul trips only using fast chargers are marginally cheaper. That makes sense as it costs money to install the fast chargers that have to go into the system. 









How Much Do Electric Vehicles Cost to ‘Fill Up’ Compared With Buying Gasoline?


As global auto makers turn their fleets electric, drivers are thinking differently about fuel—and whether operating an EV is really much cheaper than gasoline.




www.wsj.com


----------



## MarzNC

Here's how the Rivian IPO was reported in Australia. It's based on AP news. A "ute" in Australia is short for "utility" or "coupé utility" aka a pickup truck.

November 11, 2021








A little-known US car maker promised the electric ute. Now it is valued at more than $100 billion


Before yesterday, most people had never heard of Rivian. Now, the fledgling electric car maker is valued more than General Motors or Ford despite delivering just 156 of its vehicles to customers.




www.abc.net.au


----------



## Ripitz

Driving classical cars into the 21st century - CBS News https://apple.news/AiL8sLIn_RHSitNzxpRDpHg


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Ripitz said:


> Driving classical cars into the 21st century - CBS News https://apple.news/AiL8sLIn_RHSitNzxpRDpHg


That seems like the worst of both worlds to me: range anxiety and modern electronic complication combined with obsolete safety and comfort features.
I like old cars but something that only looks like an old car doesn't appeal to me much.

mm


----------



## MarzNC

Is this a significant change for Tesla?

October 28, 2021








Tesla drops regenerative braking options for new EVs


It looks like one single standard will be applied to regenerative braking for Tesla cars from here on out.




www.cnet.com


----------



## Harvey

I've been wondering why ICE cars don't shut off at idle the way hybrids do.

Anyone seen this?









Ford invents cable that can charge electric cars in about 5 minutes


Ford and Purdue University are co-developing a cable for use with electric car charging systems that can be used to recharge a battery in about 5 minutes. The patent-pending design uses a unique cooling system to allow for high power operation.




www.foxnews.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I've been wondering why ICE cars don't shut off at idle the way hybrids do.



They do -- it's weird


----------



## Harvey

On our Prius it works great, even on an old car. We test drove a honda and the whole thing shook like a MF when it restarted. Deal breaker for us.


----------



## Brownski

Start/stop systems have been around a long time just like variable displacement (shutting down cylinders while cruising). Both technologies took a long time to mature. I’ve never had a car with start/stop but I’ve ridden in friends‘ cars that had it and usually you don’t even notice it over the radio and conversation.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Start/stop systems have been around a long time just like variable displacement (shutting down cylinders while cruising). Both technologies took a long time to mature. I’ve never had a car with start/stop but I’ve ridden in friends‘ cars that had it and usually you don’t even notice it over the radio and conversation.


I think they should use it more. Like in Manhattan. Although a lot of the cabs are hybrids.

Seems like simple reliable technology.


----------



## gorgonzola

Harvey said:


> On our Prius it works great, even on an old car. We test drove a honda and the whole thing shook like a MF when it restarted. Deal breaker for us.


I turn it off on the work F-150's, its pretty rough. The new Ranger is better. Someone once told me that mileage savings is negligible, that Ford used it to meet emissions


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I think they should use it more. Like in Manhattan. Although a lot of the cabs are hybrids.
> 
> Seems like simple reliable technology.


I agree but the trend now is to discourage all hybrid solutions in favor of pushing us into EVs. I‘m a broken record I guess but I can’t believe a scaled down diesel/electric or gas/electric wouldn’t offer big improvements in mileage and emissions without requiring new infrastructure. Locomotives, cargo ships and heavy equipment are almost all diesel/electric because it’s extremely efficient.


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> I agree but the trend now is to discourage all hybrid solutions in favor of pushing us into EVs. I‘m a broken record I guess but I can’t believe a scaled down diesel/electric or gas/electric wouldn’t offer big improvements in mileage and emissions without requiring new infrastructure. Locomotives, cargo ships and heavy equipment are almost all diesel/electric because it’s extremely efficient.


I agree, especially when biofuels are used, even as a blend, along with regenerative braking.


----------



## Harvey

gorgonzola said:


> I turn it off on the work F-150's, its pretty rough. The new Ranger is better. Someone once told me that mileage savings is negligible, that Ford used it to meet emissions


Not thinking of it as an mpg thing, more about emissions in places like Manhattan, where cars are stopped a lot. I don't see how it's a hybrid specific feature. I'm no prognosticator but my guess is hybrids will be around for quite a while.


----------



## Brownski

It’s supposed to save gas in stop n go driving as well as improve emissions I believe. I’m sure results vary widely depending on conditions and driving style


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> I don't see how it's a hybrid specific feature.


Hybrid takes all the start up delay out of it. Some of the gas only ones are pretty annoying. 

mm


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> Hybrid takes all the start up delay out of it. Some of the gas only ones are pretty annoying.
> 
> mm


Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense.


----------



## Ripitz

Not sure if I’m ready for this.








						Honda's Adorable Autonomous Prototype Is a Workhorse with No Name — Car and Driver
					

The boxy prototype has been put to the test at a solar energy construction site.




					apple.news


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Not sure if I’m ready for this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honda's Adorable Autonomous Prototype Is a Workhorse with No Name — Car and Driver
> 
> 
> The boxy prototype has been put to the test at a solar energy construction site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


We put a remote controlled solar powered vehicle on Mars running around years ago if ya forgot.


----------



## MC2

Insanity:


----------



## Harvey

MC2 said:


> Insanity:
> View attachment 10989


By market cap. In theory, eventually, the market is rational. Time will tell.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> By market cap.


Yeah. More of a comment on stock market craziness


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> By market cap. In theory, eventually, the market is rational. Time will tell.


Right. As soon as GM and Ford go back online, this chart will change in about 36hrs....lol


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> Yeah. More of a comment on stock market craziness


Exactly. We've talked that the timing of this is perfect for some to go public.


----------



## DomB

MC2 said:


> Yeah. More of a comment on stock market craziness


At some point, Rivian was number 3 by market cap, behind Tesla and Toyota, I think. 

Is there some craziness? I think so. It looks like the S&P 500 is up like 30-40% in the one year period. 

I also think it is higher valuation being assigned to EVs for some reasonable reasons (not saying the level of higher valuation is reaosnable in my opionion): 1) All the climate discussion and reducing emissions from transport being one concrete way to hit 25% of emissions; 2) whether or not people care about that, the government is incenting (sp?) these companies with things like cap and trade rules (Tesla sells a bunch of credits and arguably would have gone bankrupt without them) and incentives to consumers (EV tax rebates) that make it cheaper to buy these vehicles over time.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Exactly. We've talked that the timing of this is perfect for some to go public.


Some of these appear to have been pure frauds, that even duped some of the 'big boys'. Perhaps it was Nikola that had entered into a big deal with GM and it turned out to be all vaporware, but not before Nikola issued a public float (through a SPACE or a reverse merger I believe).


----------



## Harvey

I was ready about the supply chain of materials that make up the best performing batteries. Seems like China has a lot of control over cobalt which, at this moment is a key ingredient. Can the world switch to EVs is all the cobalt if in Congo and China controls most of it? 

Are these concerns legit? If so, what are the proposed solutions to get around this?


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> I was ready about the supply chain of materials that make up the best performing batteries. Seems like China has a lot of control over cobalt which, at this moment is a key ingredient. Can the world switch to EVs is all the cobalt if in Congo and China controls most of it?
> 
> Are these concerns legit? If so, what are the proposed solutions to get around this?


Couple of start up are designing batteries with out it. Solidb state batteries are also being tested. The US is also identifying place where we can mine it ourselves. If the money keeps flowing we will have it figured out on five years. I like the start up out of Austin.


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> Couple of start up are designing batteries with out it. Solidb state batteries are also being tested. The US is also identifying place where we can mine it ourselves. If the money keeps flowing we will have it figured out on five years. I like the start up out of Austin.


Also as to current technology, the former number 2 at Tesla started a company to take old batteries and recycle them out among not good enough (think future solar storage) and good enough for auto use again. Basic analogy is making plastic from recycled plastic.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> A gallon of gas also makes water when it oxidizes.
> 
> _One gallon of gasoline produces about *217.5 moles of water*. Each mole of water has a weight of 18 grams. So the burning of one gallon of gasoline produces 3,914.6 grams of water. This is equal to* 8.6 pounds of water*, which has a volume of *1.0*33 *gallons*._
> 
> Plants make oxygen from carbon dioxide which they need. They also need water to live.
> Plants lives matter.
> Ya can eat some of them cause they taste good and are good for ya and the other things that eat em to live..


Got beer, got algae, convert CO2 (carbon dioxide) to O2 (oxygen). Everybody’s happy.
Who’da thunk it?








						Australian beer makers fight climate change by feeding CO2 to algae
					

The CO2 emitted by fermenting hops to make a six-pack of beer can take a tree two days to absorb.  Read more at straitstimes.com.




					www.straitstimes.com


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> Got beer, got algae, convert CO2 (carbon dioxide) to O2 (oxygen). Everybody’s happy.
> Who’da thunk it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australian beer makers fight climate change by feeding CO2 to algae
> 
> 
> The CO2 emitted by fermenting hops to make a six-pack of beer can take a tree two days to absorb. Read more at straitstimes.com.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.straitstimes.com


As I was reading this I was thinking about the nearly opposite (symbiotic) energy generation processes by plants and animals - our exhale provides water vapor and CO2, which they need, and they produce O2 as part of photosythesis, which we need.

Not something (I think) spoken about in climate change and deforestation, but I believe it he oxygen content of the atmosphere dropped by around .1%, we all would start to struggle a bit - it would be like living in more extreme climates. This is my recollection from honors chemistry, earth science, or biology from about 25 years ago, so easy target for the scientists here.


----------



## DomB

Lucid is coming (and launching more smoothly than Rivian, though Rivian seems to have had much better bankers): 









The Lucid Air Is the 2022 MotorTrend Car of the Year


Once again, a high-performing, long-range, game-changing electric sedan from a California startup earns our Golden Calipers.




www.motortrend.com


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> As I was reading this I was thinking about the nearly opposite (symbiotic) energy generation processes by plants and animals - our exhale provides water vapor and CO2, which they need, and they produce O2 as part of photosythesis, which we need.
> 
> Not something (I think) spoken about in climate change and deforestation, but I believe it he oxygen content of the atmosphere dropped by around .1%, we all would start to struggle a bit - it would be like living in more extreme climates. This is my recollection from honors chemistry, earth science, or biology from about 25 years ago, so easy target for the scientists here.


The oxygen concentration is a function of altitude on this planet last I looked. More at sea level, less as ya go up.
Oxygen is good & lack of oxygen is bad for us nose&mouth breathing aerobophiles.


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> The oxygen concentration is a function of altitude on this planet last I looked. More at sea level, less as ya go up.
> Oxygen is good & lack of oxygen is bad for us nose&mouth breathing aerobophiles.


Yes, you are correct, of course. But only if you are referring to density of gas. My point is that if the mix of gases that we consider air changed with respect to the percentage that is oxygen (i.e. the relative mix, not the density of air generally), it would cause people difficulty. 

That is, if you were at STP since you appear to have a STEM background or competency, and you altered the ratio of oxygen in the air (which could happen with massive environmental change particularly deforestation combined with overpopulation), then the relative portions of O2 to C02 could make things tricky to people. 

Of course, decreasing density of the gas that is air at altitude has its own challenges, as you alluded to.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> My point is that if the mix of gases that we consider air changed with respect to the percentage that is oxygen (i.e. the relative mix, not the density of air generally), it would cause people difficulty.
> ... altered the ratio of oxygen in the air ... then the relative portions of O2 to C02 could make things tricky to people.


We handle CO2 pretty well by just living as we make it ourselves. Ya make more when ya exercise.




__





Physiology, Carbon Dioxide Retention - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf






www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## DomB

All - just an update on Rivian delays. 

It sounds like the first non employee trucks get delivered January. The first non employee SUV gets delivered around March. 

I got an email with a window for the first time ever: May-June. 

I am glad I don't have to think about what will happen with the winter ski season any more. 

I think I am going to get this thing at some point, but wanted to keep y'all posted.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> All - just an update on Rivian delays.
> 
> It sounds like the first non employee trucks get delivered January. The first non employee SUV gets delivered around March.
> 
> I got an email with a window for the first time ever: May-June.
> 
> I am glad I don't have to think about what will happen with the winter ski season any more.
> 
> I think I am going to get this thing at some point, but wanted to keep y'all posted.


Need a reminder about when you put in your order. Will the wait be more or less than a year?


----------



## DomB

Ha! I ordered May 2019. More than a year. 


MarzNC said:


> Need a reminder about when you put in your order. Will the wait be more or less than a year?


----------



## MarzNC

Test drive on the Rivian course, with direct advice from a Rivian guy. Switched drive modes a few times.

November 16, 2021


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> Test drive on the Rivian course, with direct advice from a Rivian guy. Switched drive modes a few times.
> 
> November 16, 2021


So, when are you putting your order in? : )


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> So, when are you putting your order in? : )


If I ever get a Rivian in the next decade, it would be the R1S.

Have to say that for my lifestyle when it comes to an EV truck, the Ford Lightning makes more sense. The 1990s Ford Ranger isn't going to last forever.


----------



## MarzNC

Oddly enough, for most topics I prefer find stuff to read but for the EV vehicles finding good videos to watch has proved the better approach. 

July 2021





Sandy Munro has been around the automobile industry a long time, including a stint working for Ford on the Taurus. 






Sandy Munro and the Tesla Cybertruck - Munro & Associates Inc.


According to AutoBeat journalist Gary Vasilash, Elon Musk is a clever man. In a recent article, based on a recent Autoline After Hours interview, Vasilash writes, “the amount of speculation regarding the vehicle since unveiled at the Tesla Design Studio in LA on November 21, 2019, has been so...




leandesign.com





I owned two Ford Taurus station wagons. Bought one the first model year because first husband, the trucker, was really intrigued. He's over 6 feet and I'm 5 feet tall. It was the first new car purchase for both of us. We could both be very comfortable while driving. The split front seat turned out to be useful when the first dog we adopted (in Lake Placid, long story) got carsick. She could ride up front with us for the annual drive to the North Country School alumni gathering in the 1980s. Car had enough quirks that were fixed in later model years so I bought a new one in the 1990s. The original Taurus SW ended up in with an old friend in Iowa and then California and lasted a long time.


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> Oddly enough, for most topics I prefer find stuff to read but for the EV vehicles finding good videos to watch has proved the better approach.
> 
> July 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sandy Munro has been around the automobile industry a long time, including a stint working for Ford on the Taurus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sandy Munro and the Tesla Cybertruck - Munro & Associates Inc.
> 
> 
> According to AutoBeat journalist Gary Vasilash, Elon Musk is a clever man. In a recent article, based on a recent Autoline After Hours interview, Vasilash writes, “the amount of speculation regarding the vehicle since unveiled at the Tesla Design Studio in LA on November 21, 2019, has been so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> leandesign.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I owned two Ford Taurus station wagons. Bought one the first model year because first husband, the trucker, was really intrigued. He's over 6 feet and I'm 5 feet tall. It was the first new car purchase for both of us. We could both be very comfortable while driving. The split front seat turned out to be useful when the first dog we adopted (in Lake Placid, long story) got carsick. She could ride up front with us for the annual drive to the North Country School alumni gathering in the 1980s. Car had enough quirks that were fixed in later model years so I bought a new one in the 1990s. The original Taurus SW ended up in with an old friend in Iowa and then California and lasted a long time.


I agree 100%. Big reader here, but the videos are really good. I guess it is because I wouldn't even know where to start. In the video from the guy with the cool glasses, he nerded out about the possibility of the motors being magnetic something or other based upon (I think) the deceleration. I wouldn't even know where to start reading to learn about that stuff and I am pretty good at researching.


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> Oddly enough, for most topics I prefer find stuff to read but for the EV vehicles finding good videos to watch has proved the better approach.
> 
> July 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sandy Munro has been around the automobile industry a long time, including a stint working for Ford on the Taurus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sandy Munro and the Tesla Cybertruck - Munro & Associates Inc.
> 
> 
> According to AutoBeat journalist Gary Vasilash, Elon Musk is a clever man. In a recent article, based on a recent Autoline After Hours interview, Vasilash writes, “the amount of speculation regarding the vehicle since unveiled at the Tesla Design Studio in LA on November 21, 2019, has been so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> leandesign.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I owned two Ford Taurus station wagons. Bought one the first model year because first husband, the trucker, was really intrigued. He's over 6 feet and I'm 5 feet tall. It was the first new car purchase for both of us. We could both be very comfortable while driving. The split front seat turned out to be useful when the first dog we adopted (in Lake Placid, long story) got carsick. She could ride up front with us for the annual drive to the North Country School alumni gathering in the 1980s. Car had enough quirks that were fixed in later model years so I bought a new one in the 1990s. The original Taurus SW ended up in with an old friend in Iowa and then California and lasted a long time.


And I love Sandy's videos. He is fair, but merciless.


----------



## MarzNC

Have you seen this video where Sandy talks about Lightning, R1T, and Cybertruck? It was after he had a chance to talk to Ford engineers about the Lightning. 






The way he describes the differences, pretty clear that I fit into the Lightning market better than the R1T. While I got a Ranger because I didn't need a big bed and saw little reason to spend more on a bigger pickup back in the 1990s, I live in a house with plenty of space to park an F-150.


----------



## DomB

Doug DeMouro offroad review. 

His constructive feedback: bad cameras, no hill assist, no tire pressure readout. No locking differential. I think most of these are fixable with software to the extent people actually think it is an issue. Lots of positives, including doing stuff he didn't think any stock vehicle would.


----------



## Brownski

Saw an R1T on the road finally. It looked pretty slick but I don’t like the headlight design. It was smaller than I expected too.


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> Saw an R1T on the road finally. It looked pretty slick but I don’t like the headlight design. It was smaller than I expected too.


Where'd ya see it? Yes, the headlights are controversial. Size is b/w a ranger and an F150. I think the SUV will be 202 and the truck is 219 (guessing on the truck).


----------



## Ripitz

Polaris launches 110 hp electric RANGER XP Kinetic, 'most powerful' UTV on the market — Electrek


The Polaris RANGER XP Kinetic UTV was just launched this morning, marking the most powerful, highest torque, and quite likely the most capable utility vehicle on the market today.




apple.news


----------



## Brownski

DomB said:


> Where'd ya see it? Yes, the headlights are controversial. Size is b/w a ranger and an F150. I think the SUV will be 202 and the truck is 219 (guessing on the truck).


Saw it in Irvington. It may be right in between in weight but it looked a lot closer to a Ranger to me.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> Doug DeMouro offroad review.
> 
> His constructive feedback: bad cameras, no hill assist, no tire pressure readout. No locking differential. I think most of these are fixable with software to the extent people actually think it is an issue. Lots of positives, including doing stuff he didn't think any stock vehicle would.


I was a little confused by his criticism of the cameras based on what I saw from the 3-day event at Breck.

I started watching DeMouro's full review. Hard to listen to all at once. He goes through the features more slowly so I did see a few things that I hadn't seen before. Like the location of the button to open the frunk without the key. Also a more thorough explanation of how the key alternatives work.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Polaris launches 110 hp electric RANGER XP Kinetic, 'most powerful' UTV on the market — Electrek
> 
> 
> The Polaris RANGER XP Kinetic UTV was just launched this morning, marking the most powerful, highest torque, and quite likely the most capable utility vehicle on the market today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Very cool
BUT!!! Starting at 25K??? No F'n way.
As soon as these things get to be like TV's I'll be interested. I own a $300.00 flat screen 42" TV that does everything I need it to do. I'll never pay more than that for a TV, ever. 
I paid 10K for my Ranger that does everything I need it to do.
I'm not against electric motors or solar power, rather I'm waiting until it's better and competitively priced.


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> I was a little confused by his criticism of the cameras based on what I saw from the 3-day event at Breck.
> 
> I started watching DeMouro's full review. Hard to listen to all at once. He goes through the features more slowly so I did see a few things that I hadn't seen before. Like the location of the button to open the frunk without the key. Also a more thorough explanation of how the key alternatives work.


I (guess) think his point was that other cameras have such higher resolution; I know one criticism is that the Rivian camera's don't stitch together a 360 degree birds eye view like other carmakers. I don't think it is a big deal but then again my two cars have zero cameras. 

This is how I understand the criticism.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> I (guess) think his point was that other cameras have such higher resolution; I know one criticism is that the Rivian camera's don't stitch together a 360 degree birds eye view like other carmakers. I don't think it is a big deal but then again my two cars have zero cameras.
> 
> This is how I understand the criticism.


Makes sense.

I remember looking at the footage of camera shots from the 3-day event and thinking it was pretty impressive. Don't need super high resolution to see a big rock coming up.

There is a shot of the three front cameras around Min 6.


----------



## gorgonzola

Brownski said:


> . It looked pretty slick but I don’t like the headlight design.


yea I just cant' seem to get past the cartoon character look of the front end...


----------



## Brownski

gorgonzola said:


> yea I just cant' seem to get past the cartoon character look of the front end...


I guess they’re going for a Buck Rogers space age kind of thing but if it was my decision, I’d try to make it look like a normal pickup truck


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> I guess they’re going for a Buck Rogers space age kind of thing but if it was my decision, I’d try to make it look like a normal pickup truck


That's exactly what Ford did with the F-150 Lightning. It has a grill, which is only for show. Different approaches for different markets.

The comments by Sandy Munro about the three EV trucks were interesting to hear. 






Don't think it was this session, but in one of the sessions with E for Electric, Sandy was asked which company he thought was #2 after Tesla in the EV space. He didn't pick Rivian. He picked Ford based on what people in other countries are buying. Apparently the Ford Mustang Mach-E is pretty popular, even though it's still not that available yet.


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> That's exactly what Ford did with the F-150 Lightning. It has a grill, which is only for show. Different approaches for different markets.
> 
> The comments by Sandy Munro about the three EV trucks were interesting to hear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't think it was this session, but in one of the sessions with E for Electric, Sandy was asked which company he thought was #2 after Tesla in the EV space. He didn't pick Rivian. He picked Ford based on what people in other countries are buying. Apparently the Ford Mustang Mach-E is pretty popular, even though it's still not that available yet.


And Rivian is way too expensive to be #2 after Tesla. Tesla could be #1 with only expensive models for a while because their were virtually no other EVs and none of them performed well (the other mass EVs were Leaf and chevy bolt(?)). 

I think Ford or VW are going to do well in the EV market. The ID4 is actually on the road, and a CRV type competitor on cost that gets the benefit of the tax credit.

There are going to be a lot of mass market choices for EVs in the next 5 years - really exciting. The knock on Tesla is that they are still just too expensive (and they have raised prices a bunch this year).


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> And Rivian is way too expensive to be #2 after Tesla. Tesla could be #1 with only expensive models for a while because their were virtually no other EVs and none of them performed well (the other mass EVs were Leaf and chevy bolt(?)).
> 
> I think Ford or VW are going to do well in the EV market. The ID4 is actually on the road, and a CRV type competitor on cost that gets the benefit of the tax credit.
> 
> There are going to be a lot of mass market choices for EVs in the next 5 years - really exciting. The knock on Tesla is that they are still just too expensive (and they have raised prices a bunch this year).


Apparently Sandy Munro was thinking VW would do well . . . until he got a hold of their first EV car. He was disappointed. He was answering the question this fall soon after his first comprehensive look at the F150 Lightning. He liked a lot of things about the Lightning. He started asking questions about sales and interest in other countries after that in a different way. Since he knows first hand how Ford makes decisions, that's a factor too.

Sandy noted that there is a big gap at the moment between Tesla and #2 and the others are much farther behind.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Are there hidden costs to charging an EV? We've got the scoop
					

Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or filling up with gas? Here's what you need to know about EV charging costs.




					www.21oak.com


----------



## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> Saw it in Irvington. It may be right in between in weight but it looked a lot closer to a Ranger to





Campgottagopee said:


> Are there hidden costs to charging an EV? We've got the scoop
> 
> 
> Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or filling up with gas? Here's what you need to know about EV charging costs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.21oak.com


Since the majority of charging is done at home. You are looking at approx 50% saving over gas. 
It doesn’t cost 3500 to install a 3 phase charger in your house. A drier outlet will suffice.


----------



## MarzNC

Real questions coming up about how Ford can satisfy demand for the Lightning.

November 19, 2021





						Ford's Lightning order numbers don't include fleet buyers, which means it'll be sold out forever
					

Ford is going hard on electrification, with a solid showing at this year’s LA Auto Show and big reservation numbers...




					electrek.co


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Real questions coming up about how Ford can satisfy demand for the Lightning.


Raising the price will slow demand, so there’s always that trick in the book.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Since the majority of charging is done at home. You are looking at approx 50% saving over gas.
> It doesn’t cost 3500 to install a 3 phase charger in your house. A drier outlet will suffice.


Understand. For me even a 50% savings in fuel doesn't outweigh the initial cost.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Understand. For me even a 50% savings in fuel doesn't outweigh the initial cost.


I m not saying they will actually deliver it but they said they would have a base model in the 30s pre tax credit so equivalent to low 30s. If the tax laws change it could be even lower.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> If the tax laws change it could be even lower.


Or when the cost of electricity goes up it could be even higher


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> Real questions coming up about how Ford can satisfy demand for the Lightning.


Me thinks they'll do a better job that Rivian has done


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> I think Ford or VW are going to do well in the EV market


Subaru and it's cult like following will also do well
Subaru can market to their customers like no other brand out there. Quite amazing, really.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Subaru and it's cult like following will also do well
> Subaru can market to their customers like no other brand out there. Quite amazing, really.


Agree (I have a base base subie and the thing is fun). But I was referring to legacy makers that actually have EVs out. Who knows when Subie will get their's out.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Or when the cost of electricity goes up it could be even higher


Camp you rock, but I kind of think this one is silly. 

The alternative is gas, which we know statistically is far dirtier, but to your point, is (1) volatile and goes up at times extremely quickly. And (2) you can't set up a home refinery without the man stopping you, but you can set up a solar system (even DIY) that reduces costs further over time.


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> Subaru and it's cult like following will also do well
> Subaru can market to their customers like no other brand out there. Quite amazing, really.


Still a bit of chicken or the egg though. My daughter would love to have a Subaru Crosstrek like her cousin in Boston. I went with her for a test drive in Asheville. That is one of the largest dealerships in the southeast. But they don't sell the hybrid Subarus. I think they did but didn't have demand. As long as they don't have the option available, they really won't know if demand has changed.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Camp you rock, but I kind of think this one is silly.


It was meant to be semi funny, so it worked.
I forgot to put the  in there


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> Still a bit of chicken or the egg though. My daughter would love to have a Subaru Crosstrek like her cousin in Boston. I went with her for a test drive in Asheville. That is one of the largest dealerships in the southeast. But they don't sell the hybrid Subarus. I think they did but didn't have demand. As long as they don't have the option available, they really won't know if demand has changed.


Daughter just bought a crosstek sport
Subie hybrid is a joke. Almost no mpg advantage.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> Still a bit of chicken or the egg though. My daughter would love to have a Subaru Crosstrek like her cousin in Boston. I went with her for a test drive in Asheville. That is one of the largest dealerships in the southeast. But they don't sell the hybrid Subarus. I think they did but didn't have demand. As long as they don't have the option available, they really won't know if demand has changed.


Being so close to Ithaca we sell quite a few Crosstrek Hybrids 
Once this thing hits I believe it will be in high demand among the Subie faithful









						Introducing the all-new 2023 Subaru Solterra.
					

Love is now electric.



					www.subaru.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Subie hybrid is a joke. Almost no mpg advantage.


Agree
But man-o-man that feeling of being green is SO worth the extra money!!! LOL


----------



## Harvey

Why is the cost of charging so much less at home? Just adding a middleman? $3500 to install a charger does seem like a lot.

As more EVs are adopted it could push the cost of gas down and the cost of electricity up. It could also make electricity more volatile? Or if regulated, less available.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> As more EVs are adopted it could push the cost of gas down and the cost of electricity up. It could also make electricity more volatile? Or if regulated, less available.


When "we" start losing tax $$$ due to less gas being used (if it happens, still not convinced) we'll see the cost of charging go up.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> Why is the cost of charging so much less at home? Just adding a middleman? $3500 to install a charger does seem like a lot.
> 
> As more EVs are adopted it could push the cost of gas down and the cost of electricity up. It could also make electricity more volatile? Or if regulated, less available.


Let's step back a sec, please. 

Charging is more expensive at a L3 charger because it is very high speed (fill up a tesla in like 20 minutes but I don't really know teslas) and someone paid for the infrastructure to put them out there. Many makers offer lifetime or set period of time use. Harv in your current use case you would be using L3s more than almost anyone during ski season, and even those rates are cheaper than gas. 

Charging is less at home (L1 or L2 depending on volts and amps) because you pay the utility rate. And because EV's are much more efficient that Gas (think about all the heat and noise coming from gas - that is energy changed from chemical state to kinetic state), they are 'pound for pound' cheaper, particularly adding in things like regen brakes which take wasted friction (kinetic) energy from when you stop. Hybrids do that last one, too. 

I have actually done some (too much research). In a HCOL area, it costs 750 for EVSE (charger) that will fill up basically any EV overnight. NJ and NY utilities will basically give you a rebate down to 250 and reduce the electric cost off off peak rates by 25% if you use that charger (they get info and a promise from you to give them your charging draw so they can plan for future). Then in HCOL it costs 750 to install. So that is 1,000 for very convenient charging. 

As someone noted (Tirol?), if you don't want to spend any money other than a bit for a chord (and mos EVs include a 10 foot chord), you could plug into most drier outlets and get around 70% of the high speed charging effect so long as it is 240 volts. 

To figure out how long it takes to charge an EV, know your voltage to an outlet (220 for big draw items), then know the amperage output of the specific outlet combined with breaker (eg 48 amp will allow you to draw 40 for safety reasons but leave that to the electrical engineers or electricians here); Then you can convert that into kilowatts with internet calculators. That will tell you KW per hour; then you divide that into the KW of the battery and you get hours to fille. 

Then, as noted, if you work with your utility, they will give you a good discount in exchange for your using a system that lets them see how much you pull overtime.


----------



## Harvey

What is the diff between standard 240 and an electric charger? I had a 240v put in my old house for an electric kiln it was no where near 3500. Maybe $300 parts and labor. It was close to the panel so the line was short.

Camp is right, the tax strategy will get revised if adoption goes higher.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> What is the diff between standard 240 and an electric charger? I had a 240v put in my old house for an electric kiln it was no where near 3500. Maybe $300 parts and labor. It was close to the panel so the line was short.
> 
> Camp is right, the tax strategy will get revised if adoption goes higher.


The $3500 number can be real if you have an older house with 100 amp service and you already have some big amp users on the panel (oven, A/C, water heater) pushing you to the limits of the panel. You would need to convert 100 amp to 200 amp service to support the addition of the 240 car charger plus the amps and that is were the $3500 comes from.


----------



## Harvey

That makes sense.

The only 100 amp house I ever lived in, the first thing I did was convert it to 200 amps. So yea I can see how that costs $3500. Hey Zelda needs 60-80 amps just to get ready in the morning. She got her own subpanel. ?

If you are building a new house (me) the additional cost probably won't be too much. Maybe a good chance that your garage is near your panel too.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> the additional cost probably won't be too much


What you actually mean is that you won’t notice the extra expense because it will be bundled with all the other costs involved, right? It will still cost whatever it costs.


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> What you actually mean is that you won’t notice the extra expense because it will be bundled with all the other costs involved, right? It will still cost whatever it costs.


It might be more expensive to upgrade from 100amp to 200amp (vs starting new) due to udgrading related code issues.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> What is the diff between standard 240 and an electric charger? I had a 240v put in my old house for an electric kiln it was no where near 3500. Maybe $300 parts and labor. It was close to the panel so the line was short.
> 
> Camp is right, the tax strategy will get revised if adoption goes higher.


There are three levels: 

L3: highest speed chargers. Really in the range of 150-300kw. This is Tesla's high speed network; there are some other ones like Electrify America and NYS is basically doing one itself. I have posted the map to this. This is some serious, serious juice. 

L2: This is the high speed home charger. You need a 200 service (what you converted that home to) and then you need a relatively high amp breaker. The highest speed L2 chargers I know of push out 48Amp current off a 60 Amp breaker and a 200 service. You could do it off a 100 service, but it will cut the current in half. This will charge a lot of EVs overnight. Even the beast battery that is a Rivian 135 kw would about get there. 60 amp breaker EVSE (electic vehicle service equipment, what we call a charger) has to be hard wired for safety under US code. 48 amp breaker can be plug in, so you can take that 'charger' with you from home to home. 

L1: Take an outlet, any outlet, and plug that sucker in. The current comes in at a function of the Voltage and amperage to that outlet. This is where you get like 3-5 miles per hour, depending on battery size.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> There are three levels:
> 
> L3 This is where you get like 3-5 miles per hour, depending on battery size.


I get 3-5 miles per hour just walkin, with no battery, just sayin.


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> Being so close to Ithaca we sell quite a few Crosstrek Hybrids
> Once this thing hits I believe it will be in high demand among the Subie faithful
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Introducing the all-new 2023 Subaru Solterra.
> 
> 
> Love is now electric.
> 
> 
> 
> www.subaru.com


Any prediction on how long it will be before these are actually available in numbers over 10,000?


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> L1: Take an outlet, any outlet, and plug that sucker in. The current comes in at a function of the Voltage and amperage to that outlet. This is where you get like 3-5 miles per hour, depending on battery size.


For the intended use of my RAV4 Prime when I'm home, we didn't even bother to get the faster charge option. With a minimum of 40 EV with a full charge, I essentially don't put in any gas for 3-4 weeks. That's assuming I'm actually home for that many weeks in a row without taking a trip out of the Triangle. It's pretty much under 25 miles to get to any of the places I go semi-regularly. I'll push into HV mode when I take the Interstate locally. But a full tank lasts a long time. Most of the local driving for grocery shopping and household errands is under 15 miles roundtrip.

We have a 240 outlet in the garage somewhere.


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> I get 3-5 miles per hour just walkin, with no battery, just sayin.


And you'll do even better with a bike, or running with a bag. 

In my near-in suburb, 90% of places around town walking or biking is quickest. But folks are not a fan of bike lanes so I am a little limited on where I can bike to with the kids.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> What you actually mean is that you won’t notice the extra expense because it will be bundled with all the other costs involved, right? It will still cost whatever it costs.


What I actually mean is that putting in charger into a house already has 200 amp service probably won't cost that much. With a new house, you won't even have to fish a line or whatever, so that should make it easier. TBF that was a surmise based on what X and Dom said, and also on my own experience with running a 240 line from my panel in my own garage.

Somebody who knows: How much to put fast charger in a new house?

I still don't understand how the best charger is different from a regular 240. How much will that extra 30% in charge speed cost?

Like anything else you have to be a little nuts to be an early adapter. With this much investment going on now, if it is possible to make it work, I'm betting it will happen.

I wonder if wireless charging is a possibility in the long run.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> What I actually mean is that putting in charger into a house already has 200 amp service probably won't cost that much. With a new house, you won't even have to fish a line or whatever, so that should make it easier. TBF that was a surmise based on what X and Dom said, and also on my own experience with running a 240 line from my panel in my own garage.
> 
> Somebody who knows: How much to put fast charger in a new house?
> 
> I still don't understand how the best charger is different from a regular 240. How much will that extra 30% in charge speed cost?
> 
> Like anything else you have to be a little nuts to be an early adapter. With this much investment going on now, if it is possible to make it work, I'm betting it will happen.
> 
> I wonder if wireless charging is a possibility in the long run.


Harvey, 

If you already have 200 service on a house, in the metro area, you are looking at 1,000-1,500 for a fast charger (L2). It is about 750 for the equipment, and 750 for an electrician to run the wire that can handle the amperage and install the breaker and the outlet. Your utility may have incentives that really reduce the price or make free the price of the fast charger. 

You should feel free to just call me sometime it is hard for me to explain in back and forth messages. 

With regard to wireless charging, if your car is plugged in most of the chargers have apps where you can control it from your phone. 

For L1, slowest, you do nothing. For L3, the super fast, you can't get it on a home.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Why Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares thinks EV push threatens work and vehicle quality - Autobala


Carlos Tavares, CEO of Detroit-Stellantis, said external pressure on automakers to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles is a job as producers struggle to increase EV manufacturing costs. He said it could threaten the quality of the car. Governments and investors want automakers to...




autobala.com


----------



## DomB

This EV thing is getting crazy. Honda emailed me asking for a survey of to what degree I would every buy an EV. (Yes, I clicked right now, sucka). 

That is crazy because the 'survey' was a marketing piece where they said they want to go fully electric by 2040. This is a company, frankly like Toyota, that has done everything it can (in my subjectively held opinion) to not support EV adoption. 

Now we are going to have the second part of the EV potentially misleading situation (not saying it applies to Toyota or Honda - they are both great companies). First we had companies that made up that they had tech (see some of the current DOJ investigations) and now we will have companies pretending like they have plans to adopt so their stock gets a bump. 

There is another category, those that are actually adopting or actually plan to do so. Only time tells with certainty.


----------



## Campgottagopee

The biggest issue is government involvement. Like a lot of other businesses they need to stay out of it. Cash 4 Clunkers was the biggest cluster fuck one could even begin to imagine.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> The biggest issue is government involvement. Like a lot of other businesses they need to stay out of it. Cash 4 Clunkers was the biggest cluster fuck one could even begin to imagine.


Yup, good luck with that.








Elon Musk doesn’t want anymore government subsidies for electric vehicles


Musk said in an interview that more social spending would just add to the already sky-high federal deficit.



www.morningbrew.com


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> Yup, good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elon Musk doesn’t want anymore government subsidies for electric vehicles
> 
> 
> Musk said in an interview that more social spending would just add to the already sky-high federal deficit.
> 
> 
> 
> www.morningbrew.com


Hilarious for Musk to say this. His company would not exist without the 5 billion his companies got from the Government. I guess he got his and now he wants to shut the door for others trying to do the same thing.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Hilarious for Musk to say this. His company would not exist without the 5 billion his companies got from the Government. I guess he got his and now he wants to shut the door for others trying to do the same thing.


Maintaining monopolies can be a bitch, allegedly.


----------



## Tjf1967

x10003q said:


> Hilarious for Musk to say this. His company would not exist without the 5 billion his companies got from the Government. I guess he got his and now he wants to shut the door for others trying to do the same thing.


That's the American way isn't it?


----------



## DomB

Apparently R1s's (the SUV) are getting delivered to customers (employees) and they have had the first nonemployee truck delivery. 

R1t was named Motortrend truck of the year. I don't know if that is a big deal or not, but it beat out the Hummer and others.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> Apparently R1s's (the SUV) are getting delivered to customers (employees) and they have had the first nonemployee truck delivery.


Have you seen any video reviews of the R1S?


----------



## DomB

Not really. For reference, while they have delivered a few hundred R1ts, they have only delivered two R1s's, and those are to employees. Rivian's Q3 letter (December 16) had some detail. 

There are videos where people sit in mock ups, but no one has gotten their hands on production line R1s's (other than the two owners).


----------



## tirolski

Just announced today a new plant east of Atlanta and their quarterly “earnings”.


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> Just announced today a new plant east of Atlanta and their quarterly “earnings”.


They finally had revenue . . . . 1m on negative earnings (loss) of I think several hundred million. But they have 20 bln in cash. Hence the factory announcement. When I have time i am going to listen to the earnings call which is on their website for four weeks.


----------



## Campgottagopee

They'll need to improve on this and I'm sure they will.








How Far Can You Tow With an Electric Truck?


We hitched a 9,000-pound trailer to a 2021 Rivian R1T EV pickup to find out how towing affects range.




www.motortrend.com


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> They finally had revenue . . . . 1m on negative earnings (loss) of I think several hundred million. But they have 20 bln in cash.


That would be $12 hundred million but who’s countin.
_Rivian posted a third-quarter net loss of $1.2 billion. Rivian's shares tumbled 9.8% in after-hours trading ...

The pickup launched in September and the SUV this week, and Rivian has delivered 386 of the 652 vehicles it has built._

$1million in revenue divided by 652 vehicles equals ~$1500. 
$1million in revenue divided by 386 vehicles equals ~$2600. 
I’d buy one at either price and would be happy waitin it out for delivery.
What am I missin?









EV startup Rivian to build $5 bln plant in Georgia, posts quarterly loss


Amazon-backed electric vehicle startup Rivian Automotive Inc on Thursday said it will build a $5 billion plant in Georgia, its second U.S. assembly plant, as it looks to expand production.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were surprising


Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were surprising




www.daytondailynews.com


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> That would be $12 hundred million but who’s countin.
> _Rivian posted a third-quarter net loss of $1.2 billion. Rivian's shares tumbled 9.8% in after-hours trading ...
> 
> The pickup launched in September and the SUV this week, and Rivian has delivered 386 of the 652 vehicles it has built._
> 
> $1million in revenue divided by 652 vehicles equals ~$1500.
> $1million in revenue divided by 386 vehicles equals ~$2600.
> I’d buy one at either price and would be happy waitin it out for delivery.
> What am I missin?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EV startup Rivian to build $5 bln plant in Georgia, posts quarterly loss
> 
> 
> Amazon-backed electric vehicle startup Rivian Automotive Inc on Thursday said it will build a $5 billion plant in Georgia, its second U.S. assembly plant, as it looks to expand production.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Not an accountant and have not reviewed the financials, but I think they could only book revenue based on what they delivered in q3, which is way lower than 652 vehicles. In fact, it is probably 1m divided by the price of LE truck, which is around 70k. so like 15 trucks delivered in q3 if i got the basic math right. After quarter end they are talking about updated numbers, but the financials are only numbers in q3.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were surprising
> 
> 
> Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were surprising
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.daytondailynews.com


Camp haven't you post this like 4 times? : )


----------



## DomB

Yeah i am listening to the quarterly - the 652 is as of Dec 15. But the financials are as of 9/30


----------



## DomB

Interesting facts from earnings call: available on rivian.com/investors

Backlog of orders is now 71,000. Min price is 69k. Up from around 48k from initial IPO prospectus delivery in Sept.

469m cash outlay in q3 - buildout of normal factory and regional facilities

Raised 13bn of cash through IPO. Counting IPO would have had 20 bln in cash at end q3. 

Q&A 

Why buy a second location when you don't have the Normal factory fully up? A: Intentional choice to apply learning - bringing plant online by 2024 requires action now

How is the early build going? 55,400 orders to be done of end of '23 - are you standing by that? A: A lot of excitement on delivery. . . . driving additional orders [to 71k]; focused on quality, and adding over the air updates on features on vehicles. Working hard to ramp, but orders exceed current rate of production; working to have supply meet demand; planning to hit but if you order today you wont get in 2023. 

Where are biggest bottlenecks in production ramp? Daily prod rate now? A: Ramping is like an orchestra - ramp supply chain, work force, equipment, quality loops. Don't see long term challenges. One constraint has been building battery modules - 9 modules with many batteries in one battery back. Takes a lot of assembly work. There are 3 lines: development line; fully automated line; line 2 coming up now; higher volume to avoid battery as a constraint. Do not see batteries as a long term constraint. 

Ramp issues? RJ noted the two delivered R1s's went to him and the CFO. 

As your backlog grows and some wont get delivery to 2024-ARE there things to acclerate ramp given response? will you raise prices? A: Looking to accelerate ramp given demand. Ramping R1 line and EDV (Amazon) at the same time. Planning to grow normal capacity from 150k to 200k. Re pricing, given how awesome the cars are . . . . they are aggressively priced, talking alot about this. . 

Order pace - increase - update on the pace of weekly orders? Also increase interest in EDV platform from non amazon. A: Yes, increased attention and orders recently. Including first drive program and employee and non employee deliveries; this is increasing demand. Demand getting more intense in big markets. Getting more than anticipated. Re RCV platform (EDV) they have exclusive arrangement with Amazon for last mile space; that allows Rivian to learn fast. Also interest outside of last mile space and are engaged in players in this space. 

Battery sourcing: with samsung - will you insource to vertically integrate battery production? A: Most important q in electrification because of need to scale as an industry to make more evs. Three approaches parallel: 1 Sourcing an existing cell (doing for launch vehicles 2170 cells); 2 create capacity with suppliers - working on this but not announced - co invest in capacity; 3 - take fully integrated approach with sourcing and design - core to Rivian ; pilot production late next year. 

Ramp on preorders increasing so quickly- how does it align to your expectations? Exciting; heightened awareness of company from IPO plus coverage from media. Motortrend 2022 truck of the year. We expect this to continue to lead to increase in preorder demand, which has them focused on how to continue to ramp production. 

Who are these folks? Truckowners, etc? It is the white space from the existing market - vast majority of cusomters comeing from 1 never had electric and 2 90 pc of R1t never owned a truck (someone said wow on the call I think); 

Describe the key constraint now for ramp? you did mention the welding of battery packs? Can it be addressed or is this design? A: This is really complex. Hundreds of suppliers with thousands of parts, thousands of robots ; thousands of employees; reviewing constantly. We are ramping largely as expected. Battery is expected and we have a second line of batteries coming on line. This is part of the challenge. This is normal S curve ramp. 

When will you see software upgrade revenue? Consumer is Membership for 1 year; after that, charge monthly fee, including charge, roadside and connectivity.


----------



## G.ski

Dom, serious question.

Doesn't it bother you a little that Rivian is now the largest car company in the world based on capitalization but has produced a total of something like 500 trucks and has yet to turn a profit?

I know that's the way of big business today but doesn't that worry you a little as a soon to be customer?


----------



## DomB

Hey! 

I think that fact you referred to is a little bit off - last time I checked they were the third or fourth largest; behind Tesla, Toyota, VW. But, your general point stands. To answer your question, no it does not bother me that Rivian has a large market cap and has produced around 700 trucks and is far from profit. But I recognize I am taking early adopter risk. I like that risk better than I like what I view as the alternative risks, described below. 

It doesn't bother me as a customer. I have a refundable 1,000 deposit, so I don't have a lot of money at risk in the grand scheme of things. Yes, I take risk that they could be a Nikola, but facts suggest they won't be. They are owned 18% by Amazon. If they screw up, Amazon will just buy them. I don't like Amazon, but there will be a company out there. Of course I take early adopter risk, but I just don't want an ICE, and third row suv would be a nice convenience. Not sure how old you are, but I think my observation over time makes climate change pretty clear over time to me (yes, that is non scientific, but that is what science says, too). Unless you live in West Virginia, buying an EV is a much, much cleaner route over life of vehicle than ICE. We can debate it, but I have looked into the facts and believe I am correct that going this route is better overall. I am not a raging green (or at least not overtly). Its just that I have kids, I see my local micro climate as drastically different in the past 35 years of my memory, and I really would like to do what I can in reason to leave a planet to my grandkids or their kids that could literally be like living in hell. Yeah that's a dramatization, but if there is going to be an EV product that meets my wants, and not every last dollar matters to me, I am going to support that. 

It doesn't bother me that much as a capitalist. I did not participate in pre-IPO shares that Rivian made available to pre-order holders like me (though looks like I would have a paper gain of tens of thousands) because of a work restriction on owning pubcos. The market appears to be drawing the conclusion that they are more like Ford in 190- whatever competing against profitable horse buggy manufacturers. The valuation is a reflection in belief in a certain outcome in the future. It will be right or wrong. I indirectly own Rivian (I think) through ownership of Vanguard's total stock market index, which is how I purchase any US equity I have any interest in. That's fine with me. I don't try to bet on the winners - I just bet on the market over time. 

Getting solar doesn't really make financial sense for me right now. But the next time I have enough cash outside of my normal financial planning I will probably throw up some solar on my garage and then my transportation will end up being like 95% clean (we will have a second ICE car but it is driven like 2,000 miles a year). I have other posts that get into the dirty part of mfg EVs so I won't get into that. The answer is EVs are less worse at 18 mos, and then from 66% to infinitely cleaner depending on how you charge, with the exception of West Virginia.


----------



## DomB

Rivians do exist. I was going to the local Target and we spotted a Rivian R1T. I flagged the gentleman parking it down, and it turns out he may be the first nonemployee delivery. This is in metro NY. 

It was the same make as the one I test drove. The vehicle is so cool in real life. I am looking forward to hopefully getting one (an R1s) in the next six months or so. But not counting on it.


----------



## G.ski

Thanks for your detailed reply very interesting. I think it's great you are enthusiastically on board with EV's.

I'm 63 BTW and I have 3 boys. My question to you really had more to do with issues like dealerships, parts, and service support. I'm not bold enough to trust any of these new EV companies in those regards.


----------



## tirolski

G.ski said:


> Thanks for your detailed reply very interesting. I think it's great you are enthusiastically on board with EV's.
> 
> I'm 63 BTW and I have 3 boys. My question to you really had more to do with issues like dealerships, parts, and service support. I'm not bold enough to trust any of these new EV companies in those regards.


Anybody know anything about Apple’s alleged foray into EV’s?








						Apple Will Launch All-Electric, Self-Driving Car By 2025
					

The tech giant is focused on changing the world of self-driving cars.




					www.hotcars.com


----------



## DomB

G.ski said:


> Thanks for your detailed reply very interesting. I think it's great you are enthusiastically on board with EV's.
> 
> I'm 63 BTW and I have 3 boys. My question to you really had more to do with issues like dealerships, parts, and service support. I'm not bold enough to trust any of these new EV companies in those regards.


Cool. You have a totally valid point. 

Dealerships and support has an answer. I don't know if it is good or not! Rivian is pushing out regional service centers. So there is one in Brooklyn, like 15 miles from me. You would go there or they would pick up the car for bigger things. For smaller things, they are deploying the mobile vans that they are making for Amazon to bring a mini garage to you. Without doubt, it is unproven. So, yes, taking that risk on. 

For spare parts, that will be interesting. There is a big debate that I know little about relating to the 'right to repair' - Tesla only makes parts available if it wants to. For example, they don't support salvage title, etc. So again, I am taking a big risk here. 

It may be part of human psychology to underestimate future risk. That may be part of it. Part of it is that I definitely do not want an ICE, and at least for someone like me who should have around the first 5,000 vehicles, they have a big incentive to deliver good products. In the age of Instagram etc, if people are complaining about their vehicles, the company will not do as well.


----------



## Ripitz

Ford F-150 Lightning Is Not Just an Electric Truck, It's Also a Mobile EV Charger — Car and Driver
					

The Blue Oval’s F-150 Lightning electric and PowerBoost hybrid pickups can use an onboard generator to become mobile Level 2 EV chargers and help out other EVs.




					apple.news


----------



## DomB

On the other side of the equation, I saw a nine figure settlement came out relating to Nikola in a headline. For the folks noting my leap of faith, it is very clear to me we are in a buyer beware environment. 

Even Tesla, which actually delivers hundreds of thousands of vehicles annually, is believed to over promise and underdeliver (remember the 30,000 model 3?).


----------



## Brownski

I can’t find it now but I think I saw that the R1 price has gone from an initial estimate of 44k up to almost 80. Is that correct? Did you figure from the start that 44 was unrealistic and allow for that?


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> I can’t find it now but I think I saw that the R1 price has gone from an initial estimate of 44k up to almost 80. Is that correct? Did you figure from the start that 44 was unrealistic and allow for that?


This one is actually just a rumor. They have pretty much stayed constant in price. Before they announced pricing, they said something like nicely equipped at about 65,000 after tax incentive, which is 7500, so like 72,500. 

Then they announced two packages: Adventure which is the higher end with wood heated and ventilated seats, etc that was 75,500; And explore 69,000 - all the same performance but a little bit 'cheaper' interior - no ventilated seats, less sound sound. 

For the trucks it is a few thousand cheaper - the Adventure I think 72,000?

They are actually getting pushed to raise prices. On the earnings call they said they are thinking about it. 

I hope they don't. At some point there will be enough stuff where I wouldn't get it. Though, all the third parties say it is a good 'value' for the price. For example, Doug Demouro (sp?) some internet review guru gave the R1t the same score as the Hummer, which is many tens of thousands more (R1t also beat Hummer out for Motortrend truck of the year).


----------



## Campgottagopee

It's going to be fun when these things start hitting the auctions. I'm looking forward to watching them.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> It's going to be fun when these things start hitting the auctions. I'm looking forward to watching them.


Auctions are fun.


----------



## Ripitz

Startup Canoo Will Build Radical EVs in Arkansas and Oklahoma


The young EV automaker recently moved its headquarters to Arkansas and is now shifting its planned production from the Netherlands to the United States.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## Ripitz

Rest in pieces.








Tesla owner blows up his Model S with dynamite over $22,000 battery replacement — Electrek


A Tesla Model S owner in Finland decided to blow up his electric car with dynamite after it needed a battery replacement, which Tesla said was going to cost $22,000.




apple.news


----------



## MarzNC

In the kitchen cooking and watching EV-related videos. Test drives in NYC are quite different than out in California.


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> Rest in pieces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla owner blows up his Model S with dynamite over $22,000 battery replacement — Electrek
> 
> 
> A Tesla Model S owner in Finland decided to blow up his electric car with dynamite after it needed a battery replacement, which Tesla said was going to cost $22,000.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


That’s funny of course but I’m kind of surprised this guy isn’t in trouble. Did they extract the spent battery pack and other toxic materials before blowing that thing up? The YouTube stunt might have cost almost as much as the replacement would have.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Daring 60 MPH electric scooter racing league to begin drafting male and female riders


We’ve followed the development of the eSkootr Championship (eSC) since its inception in mid-2020. There’s just something about racers on...




electrek.co


----------



## MarzNC

Going to be an interesting week or two for EV pickups. Ford and GM will be in the news.

January 4, 2022








Ford plans to nearly double production of its new all-electric F-150 Lightning pickup


The increase is a good sign for the vehicle but also shows Ford significantly underestimated demand for the truck, causing it to now scramble to boost output.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> Going to be an interesting week or two for EV pickups. Ford and GM will be in the news.
> 
> January 4, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ford plans to nearly double production of its new all-electric F-150 Lightning pickup
> 
> 
> The increase is a good sign for the vehicle but also shows Ford significantly underestimated demand for the truck, causing it to now scramble to boost output.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Yes - Chevy Silverado, I think, will get announced. 

Note that for the R1T, it looks like a good 150 E without leather will be 73k and 280-300 range. The Rivian fandom is nervous Rivian will raise prices because the apples to apples is much better for Rivian. Similar with Cyber truck, which removed any references to prices on its reservation page.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> Note that for the R1T, it looks like a good 150 E without leather will be 73k and 280-300 range. The Rivian fandom is nervous Rivian will raise prices because the apples to apples is much better for Rivian. Similar with Cyber truck, which removed any references to prices on its reservation page.


I remember hearing Sandy Munro say in a video interview that he was thinking that Ford was in the best position to move forward because they were more likely to be able to ramp up production if there was demand. He expected Europeans to be interested in Lightning if Ford can provide them there. In his first detailed look, he kept commenting about the frame and other parts that are essentially the same as an ICE F-150.


----------



## MarzNC

Having driven my RAV4 Prime out to Colorado and back, I have a clear idea of how it works for my lifestyle. At home, it's an EV 90% of the time. Only a few places I drive to from the house require more than 40 miles round trip. I don't need to drive every day so usually only charging once or twice a week. When I travel, I don't even bother to take the charging cable. If I forget to start HV mode, I can charge up the traction battery to 30-35 miles EV to have available for non-highway driving.

Having 20+ EV miles seems to be better than letting it get to zero.

In the cold temps in Colorado and doing a lot of high speed highway driving, the HV mileage was low 30s. Noticeably less than for my summer trips. Still an improvement over the old minivan. And far more fun!


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> I remember hearing Sandy Munro say in a video interview that he was thinking that Ford was in the best position to move forward because they were more likely to be able to ramp up production if there was demand. He expected Europeans to be interested in Lightning if Ford can provide them there. In his first detailed look, he kept commenting about the frame and other parts that are essentially the same as an ICE F-150.


You're ahead of me in your Sandy videos! It makes alot of sense. The only thing different about the Lightening is basically going to be the battery and 'powertrain' and fronk- the seats, lights, etc., have lower price per part because they are shared with the most or one of the most popular trucks.


----------



## tirolski

Tesla Model 3 Rises to Become Best-Selling Vehicle in Switzerland for 2021


The Tesla Model 3 became the top-selling car in Switzerland in 2021, surpassing the most popular internal combustion engine vehicles that have enjoyed consumer love for decades. This demonstrates a shift in interest to EVs, which will soon completely displace ICE cars from automotive markets...




www.tesmanian.com




What is a Skoda Octavia as they’re #2 in sales in Switzerland?
Why ain’t they here?


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> Tesla Model 3 Rises to Become Best-Selling Vehicle in Switzerland for 2021
> 
> 
> The Tesla Model 3 became the top-selling car in Switzerland in 2021, surpassing the most popular internal combustion engine vehicles that have enjoyed consumer love for decades. This demonstrates a shift in interest to EVs, which will soon completely displace ICE cars from automotive markets...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tesmanian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Skoda Octavia as they’re #2 in sales in Switzerland?
> Why ain’t they here?


They are owned by VW and related to the VW Golf and the Audi A3. VW is no longer selling the regular Golf in the US, only GTI and possibly R versions. This size sedan is similar size to the Jetta.


----------



## DomB

WSJ interview by Rivian's CFO saying they will put production ahead of profitability. Which I guess makes sense if you are trying to justify their insanely high valuation/market cap. That should be good for the consumer. We'll see!









Rivian CFO Says Electric-Vehicle Maker Will Prioritize Growth Over Profits


Claire McDonough is tasked with allocating billions of dollars toward expanding the company’s production capacity.




www.wsj.com


----------



## DomB

Cool visual of the R1t next to a 150 and Jeep. 









Rivian R1T vs F-150 Raptor vs Jeep Wrangler side-by-side


Rivian R1T vs F-150 Raptor vs Jeep Wrangler side-by-side




www.rivianforums.com


----------



## DomB

This looks like a non employee owner review of the R1t. Interesting to see the bugs. The high speed charging issue will be relevant for me, as it is about 240 miles to Gore (which this person got in the cold on 100% charge). 









Rants and Raves after 2 months of Rivian R1T ownership [DISCLAIMER: Unauthorized feedback from non-owner]


Please note that the original post on Reddit was deleted as apparently the person who posted it wasn't the owner and it was an employee truck. See this post for the details: Link to weirdness Update 2: Apparently the owner/employee of the truck was threatened with termination for the...




www.rivianforums.com


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> This looks like a non employee owner review of the R1t. Interesting to see the bugs. The high speed charging issue will be relevant for me, as it is about 240 miles to Gore (which this person got in the cold on 100% charge).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rants and Raves after 2 months of Rivian R1T ownership [DISCLAIMER: Unauthorized feedback from non-owner]
> 
> 
> Please note that the original post on Reddit was deleted as apparently the person who posted it wasn't the owner and it was an employee truck. See this post for the details: Link to weirdness Update 2: Apparently the owner/employee of the truck was threatened with termination for the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com


What do you think the temperature was for the charging issue?

My friend with an older Tesla has been learning the hard way how long it takes to finish charging in Lake Placid when it's cold. On the morning he was picking up his daughter at North Country School for Thanksgiving break, he was surprised that it took over an hour to finish up.

For my RAV4 Prime, getting the last 5 EV miles takes about 2 hours out of the total 11 hours for a full charge starting with zero EV miles. The difference in max EV between charging at 40 degrees and 60 degrees is noticeable. I mostly charge outdoors but also charge in the garage when it's cold or rainy.

I've noticed that when I charge while driving HV, the max EV miles possible is about 35. That's about the same and when I unplug with 2 hours remaining on the time estimate to finish charging.

Just had the 25,000 mile service done. Last free service under ToyotaCare since that's good for 24 months or 25,000 miles. The trip to Colorado was about 4000 miles so the time since the 20,000 mile service (with oil change) was only about 5 weeks. I'm starting a southeast ski safari today so will go over 25,000 in another week or so.


----------



## DomB

I don't know the temp when they were having trouble with high speed charging, but (and I am way out of any area of expertise) it looks like the issue was software related. One question I have is if this was on the most effecient tires (21) or the AT (20). They said in conserve mode they got 330, so that makes me think it is the 21s. I think I'd be fine with the 21s, but the 20s are so cool : ) and a 'free' upgrade for the type of order I have. 

I do fully expect slow charge rates above 80% - this is a known quantity in the EV world, and is something I DON'T THINK they can code around for the forseeable future. 

The person referenced driving in the mountains and getting 240 miles at 20F without hypermiling, which I was happy about. 

If this were me, I would pick a spot on the map to stop for 10 minutes when you are in the best spot of the charging curve (20-80%) and grab miles. Rivian has statements out there that I can't recall but I think it is 120 range in 20 minutes.


----------



## x10003q

DomB said:


> I don't know the temp when they were having trouble with high speed charging, but (and I am way out of any area of expertise) it looks like the issue was software related. One question I have is if this was on the most effecient tires (21) or the AT (20). They said in conserve mode they got 330, so that makes me think it is the 21s. I think I'd be fine with the 21s, but the 20s are so cool : ) and a 'free' upgrade for the type of order I have.
> 
> I do fully expect slow charge rates above 80% - this is a known quantity in the EV world, and is something I DON'T THINK they can code around for the forseeable future.
> 
> The person referenced driving in the mountains and getting 240 miles at 20F without hypermiling, which I was happy about.
> 
> If this were me, I would pick a spot on the map to stop for 10 minutes when you are in the best spot of the charging curve (20-80%) and grab miles. Rivian has statements out there that I can't recall but I think it is 120 range in 20 minutes.


You are a brave man. Was that 240 mile mountain range you referenced based on a 100% battery? Was it in the winter?

I know EVs are the future and even the present for many situations, but dancing with a 240 range is not for me. In the late 1980s I had a 1979 Dodge pickup 4 x 4 as my ski vehicle. It had a 22 gallon tank and 10-12mpg on the highway. I was filling it up every 180-200 miles. It was a giant pain in the ass. I will never go back to a sub-300 range.


----------



## DomB

x10003q said:


> You are a brave man. Was that 240 mile mountain range you referenced based on a 100% battery? Was it in the winter?
> 
> I know EVs are the future and even the present for many situations, but dancing with a 240 range is not for me. In the late 1980s I had a 1979 Dodge pickup 4 x 4 as my ski vehicle. It had a 22 gallon tank and 10-12mpg on the highway. I was filling it up every 180-200 miles. It was a giant pain in the ass. I will never go back to a sub-300 range.


Yes, 240 was 20F into the mountains (me reporting here is like third hand hearsay). On normal use in conserve mode, got 330 range. 

My wife and I were just talking about this. She wants to (perhaps wisely) wait for the max pack which should approach 400 mi, or with the winter 20-30 pc hit (Rivian's winter testing seems better than Tesla and was included in part of the EPA testing), would get us 300 miles. 

But, if we go max pack, they are saying 2023, which is Rivian speak for December 31, 2023. I guess that's fine as our family car now is a 2011 CRV that runs just fine. 

If we stick with our current order, it is slated to get delivered May-June 2022.


----------



## Brownski

Considering its from somebody that loves Rivian and is on board with EVs in general, that review is pretty devastating. They're losing tons of charge just sitting in place in the cold and need to turn off all the fancy bells and whistles to get maximum range. And charging still sounds like an overly complicated nightmare. Your wife is right. Wait for the better battery to be available.


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> I know EVs are the future and even the present for many situations, but dancing with a 240 range is not for me. In the late 1980s I had a 1979 Dodge pickup 4 x 4 as my ski vehicle. It had a 22 gallon tank and 10-12mpg on the highway. I was filling it up every 180-200 miles. It was a giant pain in the ass. I will never go back to a sub-300 range.


That's exactly why I was only interested in a hybrid or a PHEV. Hearing about the effort my friend who owns a Tesla needs to do in order to get from NC to Lake Placid and back just confirmed my inclination.

If I'm driving 500+ miles in a day, I want to be able to stop more or less when I feel like it for a rest stop or food. Sometimes that means driving 3 hours without a stop for any reason. At highway speeds, I don't want to have to stop because the car needs gas or a charge. The old minivan had a range of about 300 miles so I learned how to manage filling up with gas driving the 800 miles between my house and LP or Boston. Didn't usually day in one day but often drove 600+ miles before stopping for the night. The RAV4 Prime isn't quite as good as a RAV4 Hybrid when only using HV mode, but still can count on at least 400 miles even at high speed in cold weather.


----------



## Brownski

The longest ranged vehicle I ever had was my ‘85 GMC Safari. It held about 26 gallons and got ok mileage. I think I went over 600 miles on a tank once. Anything less than 300 is a PITA to deal with, even when you just have to fill up with gas. Manufacturers need to do better


----------



## DomB

I wonder if I will end up just getting a nice Highlander hybrid . . . . We'll see.


----------



## Brownski

DomB said:


> I wonder if I will end up just getting a nice Highlander hybrid . . . . We'll see.


The Sienna hybrid is still the leading candidate for my next big car.


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> The Sienna hybrid is still the leading candidate for my next big car.


Yeah I want something with enough ground clearance to take on the beach. I guess I could get a minivan lifted and take it? : )


----------



## Campgottagopee

If you're waiting I'd seriously look at one of the big three, Chevy, Ford, or Ram. I get that Rivian is cool and all, but man they keep delaying and raising prices. I'd also be cautious of their limited dealer network.


----------



## Brownski

There are lift kits for Siennas believe it or not


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> I wonder if I will end up just getting a nice Highlander hybrid . . . . We'll see.


That's what my trucker friend got for his wife. She had a Prius Hybrid for a while. Needed a bigger car for grandchildren and weekend ski trips to Bachelor. They live in southern Oregon. They are very happy with the Highlander.

For context, he has had a full-size pickup with a camper for a long time.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> The Sienna hybrid is still the leading candidate for my next big car.


That's what my friend in Boston got in 2021. Decided what she wanted in 2020 and took a while to find a dealer who could delivered exactly what she wanted but it was worth the wait for her. She prefers having a minivan rather than a pickup. Does a lot of DIY projects. Two daughters over 20.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> If you're waiting I'd seriously look at one of the big three, Chevy, Ford, or Ram. I get that Rivian is cool and all, but man they keep delaying and raising prices. I'd also be cautious of their limited dealer network.


Good point. I actually have a Ford Lightening reservation. The Lightening does some really cool stuff. But right now for us, a third row will and ground clearance are the highest wants. I haven't focused on their pricing, but it looks like they pulled a Tesla when they said you could get a good one cheap. Their large range (280 mi battery) nicely equipped will be like 72k before the credit, so like 63k in NY after tax refund 18 months later. 

At least what I have seen, they have taken the normal Ford 150 body and thrown the battery under, so it may actually limit some of that ground clearance (which I am sure will be fine anyway). 

If I buy ICE, will be a strong lean toward Hybrid for the practical reason that you can usually at least go short distances on the small battery they have (30-40 miles?). Aside from ski season, that is like 90 percent of our driving. My inlaws and the beach are just about in that range.


----------



## x10003q

DomB said:


> Good point. I actually have a Ford Lightening reservation. The Lightening does some really cool stuff. But right now for us, a third row will and ground clearance are the highest wants. I haven't focused on their pricing, but it looks like they pulled a Tesla when they said you could get a good one cheap. Their large range (280 mi battery) nicely equipped will be like 72k before the credit, so like 63k in NY after tax refund 18 months later.
> 
> At least what I have seen, they have taken the normal Ford 150 body and thrown the battery under, so it may actually limit some of that ground clearance (which I am sure will be fine anyway).
> 
> If I buy ICE, will be a strong lean toward Hybrid for the practical reason that you can usually at least go short distances on the small battery they have (30-40 miles?). Aside from ski season, that is like 90 percent of our driving. My inlaws and the beach are just about in that range.


Sticking with a pickup/EV from Ford/GM/Ram is probably the safer bet. The heavy dealer network has higher odds of getting something fixed vs a never ever like Rivian.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Sticking with a pickup/EV from Ford/GM/Ram is probably the safer bet. The heavy dealer network has higher odds of getting something fixed vs a never ever like Rivian.


I'd also add staying is business. Rivian, while grandiose in speculation, hasn't proved anything other than they can talk real loud. So far they haven't built sqwadoooosh. You can only keep that up for so long before going belly-up.


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> Sticking with a pickup/EV from Ford/GM/Ram is probably the safer bet. The heavy dealer network has higher odds of getting something fixed vs a never ever like Rivian.


Fixing them is easy. They have an app for that.


----------



## G.ski

Campgottagopee said:


> I'd also add staying is business. Rivian, while grandiose in speculation, hasn't proved anything other than they can talk real loud. So far they haven't built sqwadoooosh. You can only keep that up for so long before going belly-up.


And now that the Fed is going to raise interest rates, we're going to see how these never profitable businesses are going to fare. These guys have been living on cheap money and stocks in the tech sector are already getting skittish.


----------



## DomB

G.ski said:


> And now that the Fed is going to raise interest rates, we're going to see how these never profitable businesses are going to fare. These guys have been living on cheap money and stocks in the tech sector are already getting skittish.


This is all true. I still think that if they sputter enough, Amazon, which already owns a big stake (20%? can't remember) will just buy them. They won't fail then. Consumers may not end up liking them long term, but they won't fail.


----------



## DomB

I will also say, frankly, the legacy automakers don't have credibility to me in this area. Maybe they will actually commit, which certainly Ford and GM seems to be doing, but it is tricky for them as the vast majority of their profits are from ICE (and they have to buy enviro credits from Tesla!). 

I think the big automakers have concluded EVs are going to be the market. The question is if that is in 5 (unlikely), 10, 15, 20 years.


----------



## Brownski

I think they concluded that they’re going to be forced to make EVs the market just like we’re going to be forced to buy them. And the affordable long range EVs aren’t going to look like Rivians and Teslas. They’re going to be a more efficient version of the Nissan Leaf. And it’s gonna suck


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> (and they have to buy enviro credits from Tesla!).


All manufactures have to
Politics


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> And it’s gonna suck


I concur


----------



## DomB

DomB said:


> This looks like a non employee owner review of the R1t. Interesting to see the bugs. The high speed charging issue will be relevant for me, as it is about 240 miles to Gore (which this person got in the cold on 100% charge).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rants and Raves after 2 months of Rivian R1T ownership [DISCLAIMER: Unauthorized feedback from non-owner]
> 
> 
> Please note that the original post on Reddit was deleted as apparently the person who posted it wasn't the owner and it was an employee truck. See this post for the details: Link to weirdness Update 2: Apparently the owner/employee of the truck was threatened with termination for the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com


So apparently, this was a scandal - a friend of an employee under an NDA took this info and posted it. It was a big to-do. Apparently, that is a no no in this world. Take some of it with a grain of salt.


----------



## Campgottagopee

They've only delivered 920 trucks
It's going to be a long time before we truly know how these things perform.


----------



## Brownski

DomB said:


> So apparently, this was a scandal - a friend of an employee under an NDA took this info and posted it. It was a big to-do. Apparently, that is a no no in this world. Take some of it with a grain of salt.


I think you always have to consider the source but that applies to Rivian’s press releases and reports from pliable bloggers as well. Some people would view this guy as a whistleblower.


Campgottagopee said:


> They've only delivered 920 trucks
> It's going to be a long time before we truly know how these things perform.


Time will tell. Even though I’m a skeptic, I’m actually hopeful that they can eventually put out a good product.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I’m actually hopeful that they can eventually put out a good product.


Same. But! Good product is open to definition. Tesla, who's been in the game long enough, is still having fit and finish issues. That's enough for me to put them in the not so good product line. I mean for that kinda dough the damn glovebox should at least line up with the dash. I think too many people are getting caught up in this EV craze and have rose colored glasses on. That said, I do recognize I look at cars/trucks differently than most.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Same. But! Good product is open to definition. Tesla, who's been in the game long enough, is still having fit and finish issues. That's enough for me to put them in the not so good product line. I mean for that kinda dough the damn glovebox should at least line up with the dash. I think too many people are getting caught up in this EV craze and have rose colored glasses on. That said, I do recognize I look at cars/trucks differently than most.


"You will pay big bucks for this Tesla and like it!"


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> "You will pay big bucks for this Tesla and like it!"


I’d rather get a horse like wondepony. They’re more fun.


----------



## DomB

Guys - the other side of the coin: If I bought a new hybrid right now, I would pay a premium and probably have to wait. Quick pricing is 59,800 for a highlander hybrid awd platinum (yes 600 mi range) with 'market adjustment' and a wait time VS 66,000 after tax rebate for the LE R1S and its performance (albeit 316 range on 21s or 280 on 20s) around May to June. It becomes a little more interesting. 

Dealers in my area are requiring (1) 1,000 nonrefundable deposit to TEST DRIVE the specific model you want and (2) a 'Market Adjustment of between 5-15% for the dealer that would disclose it; another dealer would not even discuss rangeI just priced out a Highlander Hybrid Platinum. It looks like the MSRP is 52,000. x 15% gets you up to the 59,800 number. 

LE is 75,500 with a 7,500 credit and a 2,000 state credit, to 66,000. 

Yeah that probably means a 15 minute stop each way which we have not needed. We'll see.


----------



## DomB

The other alternative (and the most likely one right now) is just wait. The mighty CRV just keeps giving me reasons to love it. Knock wood the only unscheduled cost I have ever had is battery, which seems to fail in 2 or 3 years versus some longer period on this particular Honda. I remember when I had 80,000 miles and the tire guy thought I was crazy for buying nice 60,000 mile tires. Whose laughing now ; )


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> The other alternative (and the most likely one right now) is just wait.


Exactly this. Unless a person needs a new ride badly, wait. This market is fkn nuts right now.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Which Really Costs More: Charging an EV or Filling Up Your Tank With Gas?
					

Electric vehicles and gas cars have always come with a tradeoff. Fully electric vehicles are more expensive to buy, but they're cheaper to own because they're cheaper to fuel and maintain -- and they...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Which Really Costs More: Charging an EV or Filling Up Your Tank With Gas?
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles and gas cars have always come with a tradeoff. Fully electric vehicles are more expensive to buy, but they're cheaper to own because they're cheaper to fuel and maintain -- and they...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com


Camp this is the fourth time you posted this link! : )


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Exactly this. Unless a person needs a new ride badly, wait. This market is fkn nuts right now.


Camp, it was so weird. Such a different experience than 2011. The sales person at one place was nice but very clear that they probably wouldn't sell without the mark up, period, and I would have to drop that deposit just to test drive. I was polite but I was literally laughing because it was such a different experience. Keep in mind, while I see day to day food inflation, I haven't made a big purchase during Covid other than a dryer, which was a bit like, whatever, just buy the thing. 

At the other dealer, they wouldn't even let me ask them about the 'market adjustment' range unless I would come in to negotiate on price. Hard no there.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Camp, it was so weird. Such a different experience than 2011. The sales person at one place was nice but very clear that they probably wouldn't sell without the mark up, period, and I would have to drop that deposit just to test drive. I was polite but I was literally laughing because it was such a different experience. Keep in mind, while I see day to day food inflation, I haven't made a big purchase during Covid other than a dryer, which was a bit like, whatever, just buy the thing.
> 
> At the other dealer, they wouldn't even let me ask them about the 'market adjustment' range unless I would come in to negotiate on price. Hard no there.


If you're serious, and have to buy now, you need to go online and get out of that big metro market. Some dealers around here are marking up from MSRP, no doubt. But the majority aren't, if you can find and purchase at MSRP it's already worth more than what you just paid. That's never been seen in this industry. Million, or millions dollar question is when does it shift back.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> If you're serious, and have to buy now, you need to go online and get out of that big metro market. Some dealers around here are marking up from MSRP, no doubt. But the majority aren't, if you can find and purchase at MSRP it's already worth more than what you just paid. That's never been seen in this industry. Million, or millions dollar question is when does it shift back.


This is a big economic catch 22. When you have all this demand and shortage and inflation, my arm chair economist says the fed should raise rates. But if you look post 2008, from a policy perspective we have not been willing to do that. 
If you raise rates, the market should go down, which could affect confidence, which could lead to unemployment, etc. Not an easy situation. Who knows what the psychology of this market is combined with lingering health concerns.


----------



## trackbiker

Man am I glad I bought my last car in October, 2019. I always liked the local dealer that I dealt with but I won't be taking my car back there next fall for the "free" inspection. I know they aren't making money on cars because they have very little to sell but they are really stretching on their service. I called them on some BS and they knocked it off. They wanted to charge me for two cracked wheel studs. I told them the only way the studs were cracked is if they were over torqued and that they were the only ones to touch the wheels since I bought the car. That's was one thing that my engineering degree helped with.


----------



## x10003q

DomB said:


> The other alternative (and the most likely one right now) is just wait. The mighty CRV just keeps giving me reasons to love it. Knock wood the only unscheduled cost I have ever had is battery, which seems to fail in 2 or 3 years versus some longer period on this particular Honda. I remember when I had 80,000 miles and the tire guy thought I was crazy for buying nice 60,000 mile tires. Whose laughing now ; )


If you can make this work, why not wait? Plus, if you do go for the Rivian, the longer you wait the better your odds of having to deal with less problems. I would not want to pay to be part of their long term test crew.


----------



## Ripitz

Shiny New Toy Syndrome can be a real bitch.


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> Shiny New Toy Syndrome can be a real bitch.


It's kind of funny that the same thing that drove rich people to park hummers in their driveway in the 90s is driving sales of Teslas now. We're all the same and things never change.


----------



## Harvey

From a few pages back, on range:

My CRV gets about 33 mpg highway, and has a driving range around 400. It's great to do something as far flung as drive to McCauley to chase snow, and not have to think about gas until the END of the day.

CRV gets closer to 35 at home, driving 40 mph in the burbs.

Originally I thought the turbo was stupid, but it is awesome. I've got this tiny motor (1.6L) but if you NEED to stomp it, it goes. If I am alone, which is most often the case. With 3 people and luggage not so much.

Also unlike my other CRVs, the mpg on this one has not dropped since the beginning.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> if you NEED to stomp it, it goes.


There you go Harv! Stomp that thing! On to the next mountain!!


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> There you go Harv! Stomp that thing! On to the next mountain!!


I can honest say in 80,000 miles, I've stomped it only a few times. I'm a closet hypermiler. ?


----------



## Brownski

In what way are you closeted? You brag about your mileage all the time.


----------



## jasonwx

Drive a cx5 avg 28 ish
I would get a lot more if I knew how to drive
Range around 380


----------



## Campgottagopee

Currently driving Ram 2500 with a Cummings
Get 13 ish


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> In what way are you closeted? You brag about your mileage all the time.



It's a venn diagram. True hypermilers are a small subset of the braggers.

I acknowledge we are a menace to society.


----------



## Ripitz

Airstream parent company Thor signs MOU with ZF to build electric RV — Electrek


Leading RV manufacturer Thor Industries, the parent company of the iconic Airstream brand, announced that it had signed a binding memorandum of understanding (MOU) with German auto supplier ZF to give Thor companies exclusive rights to ZF’s eTrailer System in a travel trailer RV. The goal is a...




 apple.news


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> It's a venn diagram. True hypermilers are a small subset of the braggers.
> 
> I acknowledge we are a menace to society.


......absolutely a menace to me and society


----------



## gorgonzola

^^^ cool concept but like eMTB's has a potential downside bringing more users to already crowded parks. Knowing how close we came to losing the range game a few time on our recent GC trip I would not want to play with an EV. It would be cool to to get better than 9 mpg towing though lol


----------



## DomB

More high speed NY state chargers are coming on line. The latest one is about 40 miles south of Gore in Fort Edward. 

This could give most EVs that can handle the high speed charge around 140 miles in 20 minutes. Even higher for a Tesla. 









EVolve NY Planned Sites - Google My Maps


List of upcoming EVolve NY Sites




www.google.com


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> More high speed NY state chargers are coming on line. The latest one is about 40 miles south of Gore in Fort Edward.
> 
> This could give most EVs that can handle the high speed charge around 140 miles in 20 minutes. Even higher for a Tesla.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EVolve NY Planned Sites - Google My Maps
> 
> 
> List of upcoming EVolve NY Sites
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


There are chargers at Garnet Hill Lodge. Have a nice dinner while the car gets juiced.


----------



## Ripitz

Electric tundra buggy makes Canadian eco-tourism that much greener — Electrek


Thousands of eco-tourists travel to the community of Churchill, Manitoba every year to catch a glimpse of the vulnerable polar bears that convene along the shallow waters of Hudson Bay. Perhaps surprisingly, the “Tundra Buggy” that takes these nature-loving tourists out onto the ice has been...




apple.news


----------



## x10003q

DomB said:


> More high speed NY state chargers are coming on line. The latest one is about 40 miles south of Gore in Fort Edward.
> 
> This could give most EVs that can handle the high speed charge around 140 miles in 20 minutes. Even higher for a Tesla.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EVolve NY Planned Sites - Google My Maps
> 
> 
> List of upcoming EVolve NY Sites
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


This is good news. I wonder if they are going to put more chargers on the Northway rest stops. I found this one on the north bound side between Exit 17 and 18.








Adirondack Northway Welcome Center | PlugShare


(5/9/22) North CCS charger not working. (2) fast charging stations on the northbound side of the northway between exit 17 and 18. There are no chargers at the southbound rest area.



www.plugshare.com


----------



## Brownski

They’re rebuilding a few rest stops right now so I’m guessing there will be more chargers soon


----------



## DomB

These are interesting times. An employee owner posted on instagram that he was getting the equivalent of 309 miles of range in his R1t with 20 inch wheels and an offroad upgrade (front towhooks and extended underbody protection) driving in 19f at 55-60. I am assuming the car was preconditioned (battery warmed before starting out), but I would be thrilled with that kind of winter performance. This was in all purpose (not conserve mode). EPA rating (which is a mix of all purpose and conserve). Cabin set to 68. 

I am assuming I will get 240 miles of range with 20s and no offroad upgrade. Rivian says offroad and AT should reduce range 10-15% or more together. EPA range of truck is 314 and SUV 316. 

Conserve mode limits you to two motors at a time (instead of 4) and does some other things that I don't have information on like limiting heating.


----------



## jasonwx

Just watched a review of the F150 Hybrid..Scotty Killmer
36mph on the hwy..That's impressive, imo that seems like the way to go


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> They’re rebuilding a few rest stops right now


It seems odd to rebuild them all at the same time. Maybe with covid they thought it was a good opportunity?


----------



## Ripitz

They are rebuilding those rest stops because ground contamination was discovered from leaking fuel tanks.


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> They are rebuilding those rest stops because ground contamination was discovered from leaking fuel tanks.


At all of them? There must be like four that are in some stage of torn down right now


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> These are interesting times. An employee owner posted on instagram that he was getting the equivalent of 309 miles of range in his R1t with 20 inch wheels and an offroad upgrade (front towhooks and extended underbody protection) driving in 19f at 55-60. I am assuming the car was preconditioned (battery warmed before starting out), but I would be thrilled with that kind of winter performance. This was in all purpose (not conserve mode). EPA rating (which is a mix of all purpose and conserve). Cabin set to 68.
> 
> I am assuming I will get 240 miles of range with 20s and no offroad upgrade. Rivian says offroad and AT should reduce range 10-15% or more together. EPA range of truck is 314 and SUV 316.
> 
> Conserve mode limits you to two motors at a time (instead of 4) and does some other things that I don't have information on like limiting heating.


That's way too much to think about. I jumped in my 3/4 ton Ram diesel and rolled 75mph down to the auction this AM. It's -2 out.


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> At all of them? There must be like four that are in some stage of torn down right now


I don’t know the full story. A family member who works for NYS was telling me about it. All the money went to the Tappan Zee. The fuel contamination was discovered at a time when the vendor’s lease was about to be renewed. They can’t move forward until it’s cleaned up. Some of it can be cleaned on site and some of it has to be removed. Either way it’s really expensive and time consuming. New fuel tanks are going in. I believe a few chargers will be added but not a large future focused network. That would make too much sense.


Campgottagopee said:


> That's way too much to think about. I jumped in my 3/4 ton Ram diesel and rolled 75mph down to the auction this AM. It's -2 out.


Did you plug it in??


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> That's way too much to think about. I jumped in my 3/4 ton Ram diesel and rolled 75mph down to the auction this AM. It's -2 out.


How do you like the Ram? I’ve always been leery of Chrysler products but it seems like everybody makes decent vehicles nowadays


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Did you plug it in??


Nope ?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> How do you like the Ram? I’ve always been leery of Chrysler products but it seems like everybody makes decent vehicles nowadays


If I had to buy a truck, and I didn't get a rusty old F250, it would be a 2018 or newer Ram. Their truck line right now has it going on, imo.


----------



## DomB

FYI TFL (some internet car guys) have a live review of high speed charging the Rivian; apparently in the cold (20f) they got 270 range, which seems pretty sweet to me. 

They also did a drag with the meanest Ram and the Rivian beat it cold (as we would all expect). I will say the Ram did 0-60 in 4.5 which sounds amazing for a truck (or anything).


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> If I had to buy a truck, and I didn't get a rusty old F250, it would be a 2018 or newer Ram. Their truck line right now has it going on, imo.


Camp, this thing could pay for itself with the shipping shitshow going on.
There was one parked next to me at Song.
Ya can camp in it.
500 HP. 
It’s a 2017 though.


https://www.truckpaper.com/listings/trucks/for-sale/210929875/2017-peterbilt-389


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> Hey!
> ... Not sure how old you are, but I think my observation over time makes climate change pretty clear over time to me (yes, that is non scientific, but that is what science says, too). Unless you live in West Virginia, buying an EV is a much, much cleaner route over life of vehicle than ICE. We can debate it, but I have looked into the facts and believe I am correct that going this route is better overall. I am not a raging green (or at least not overtly). Its just that I have kids, I see my local micro climate as drastically different in the past 35 years of my memory, and I really would like to do what I can in reason to leave a planet to my grandkids or their kids that could literally be like living in hell. Yeah that's a dramatization, but if there is going to be an EV product that meets my wants, and not every last dollar matters to me, I am going to support that.
> 
> I have other posts that get into the dirty part of mfg EVs so I won't get into that. The answer is EVs are less worse at 18 mos, and then from 66% to infinitely cleaner depending on how you charge, with the exception of West Virginia.


Core convection news. 
Maybe that’s causing the oceans' temp rise and not cow farts & ICE.








						The Earth May Be Warming — but Its Core Is Cooling Faster Than We Thought
					

Earth’s core is cooling faster than previously thought, a new study finds.




					www.greenmatters.com


----------



## MarzNC

Snowwheeling with a Rivian R1T and a Toyota Tundra. Just the two guys in the woods. Sounds like a loaner R1T but unclear if from the company or a private owner.


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> Snowwheeling with a Rivian R1T and a Toyota Tundra. Just the two guys in the woods. Sounds like a loaner R1T but unclear if from the company or a private owner.


The background on this is cool. They were supposed to get a media car, but it apparently had an accident coming off the delivery truck. An employee owner at the shop they were picking it up at was like, just take mine. That's why in one of the tests they lined the bed with plywood. 

Also, they did a charge from 20-80 pc that took 39 minutes (about 162 miles range). That seems way to long to me, but it should get better at time with software updates, and it was somewhat cool out (37 degrees)


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> The background on this is cool. They were supposed to get a media car, but it apparently had an accident coming off the delivery truck. ..That's why in one of the tests they lined the bed with plywood.


Sounds like it’s ready for The Upstate tour.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> Snowwheeling with a Rivian R1T and a Toyota Tundra. Just the two guys in the woods. Sounds like a loaner R1T but unclear if from the company or a private owner.


I couldn't get past 1:52
Can't stand people who don't know how to drive
Take the stupid VDC off and hammer it!


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> Can't stand people who don't know how to drive
> Take the stupid VDC off and hammer it!


I was only watching the R1T.


----------



## DomB

I've heard they did not air down; haven't watched this vid (there is a summary vid of towing, offroad, and charging that I watched).


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> I've heard they did not air down; haven't watched this vid (there is a summary vid of towing, offroad, and charging that I watched).


If I'm being honest it was hard to take that video seriously. Anyone who goes off road in the winter and does not have chains on is a fool.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> If I'm being honest it was hard to take that video seriously. Anyone who goes off road in the winter and does not have chains on is a fool.


You're point makes sense to me. The testing people (who I am not defending) said they did certain things due to time and cost.


----------



## x10003q

In the section of life called unintended consequences - on our trip to and from Vermont on the NYS Thruway, we noticed 90% of the Teslas were in the slow lane doing what appeared to be the speed limit. Range anxiety in single digit temps is one way to eliminate speeding.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Range anxiety in single digit temps is one way to eliminate speeding.


Yup, but it’s 4WD, so there’s that.


----------



## DomB

Say what you want, but Tesla profited decent profit margin on about 40% of GM's 2020 revenue number (I'd say fair use quote from WSJ):

"Tesla’s focus on growth helped it to generate a record profit of $5.5 billion last year on $53.8 billion of revenue." GM had 122 billion in revenue in 2020 according to google. 

Interestingly, Tesla won't put out a new model purportedly to focus on selling more units. 









Elon Musk Says Tesla Will Prioritize Deliveries Over New Vehicles in 2022


The electric-vehicle maker reported record earnings but hasn’t been immune to supply-chain problems.




www.wsj.com


----------



## DomB

Posted decent margin. DomB m smart. : )


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> In the section of life called unintended consequences - on our trip to and from Vermont on the NYS Thruway, we noticed 90% of the Teslas were in the slow lane doing what appeared to be the speed limit. Range anxiety in single digit temps is one way to eliminate speeding.



Does Stratton have charging?


----------



## MarzNC

Anyone know anything about the Land Rover 400E PHEV? I've seen a video review of the 300E Discovery Sport PHEV that's being sold in the UK. 400E EV range is 19 miles while the 300E range is 34 miles.









Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles and SUVs | Land Rover USA


Land Rover offers top quality plug-in hybrid SUVs. Explore our PHEV models, featuring the Range Rover and Range Rover Sport hybrids today.




www.landroverusa.com













Land Rover Discovery Sport PHEV review | DrivingElectric


Land Rover's Discovery Sport P300e plug-in is an impressive petrol-electric SUV, but lacks the seven-seat practicality of the non-hybrid



www.drivingelectric.com


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Does Stratton have charging?


Seem to be quite a few Tesla charging stations in that part of Vermont. There is a Tesla SuperCharger in Rutland near Killington. Easy to find Tesla charge options using Google Maps these days.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Does Stratton have charging?


Yes, by the Welcome Center









						Stratton Welcome Center | PlugShare
					

3 ChargePoint 7kW J1772 chargers in front of Stratton Welcome Center



					www.plugshare.com


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Yes, by the Welcome Center
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stratton Welcome Center | PlugShare
> 
> 
> 3 ChargePoint 7kW J1772 chargers in front of Stratton Welcome Center
> 
> 
> 
> www.plugshare.com



Is that convenient? I'm thinking when people can park in their normal spot, it will make a big difference.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I'm thinking when people can park in their normal spot, it will make a big difference.


This is actually the part I can’t wrap my mind around. The plan seems to be for EVs to replace ICE vehicles pretty rapidly. 2035 seems like a long way off but it’s really not. Should we expect whole parking lots full of charging stations everywhere?


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> This is actually the part I can’t wrap my mind around. The plan seems to be for EVs to replace ICE vehicles pretty rapidly. 2035 seems like a long way off but it’s really not. Should we expect whole parking lots full of charging stations everywhere?


B - I think that we'll all have home chargers in the burbs and rural (NEMA 14-50 [dryer plug on 240]) will charge all but the largest vehicles over night, and the numbers on how far most commute each day are way less than that. I think for urban you will get a mix where every parking lot has a good percentage of L2 (15-30 miles an hour) and perhaps over time staggered charging spots on streets. 

Highways will be dotted with high speed chargers (as Tesla already has in place and frankly as NYS is pushing out). 

I guarantee I will be wrong.


----------



## DomB

Separately, I thought I saw a headline that GM wants to sell MORE EVs than Tesla by 2025. This may get very interesting.


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> This is actually the part I can’t wrap my mind around. The plan seems to be for EVs to replace ICE vehicles pretty rapidly. 2035 seems like a long way off but it’s really not. Should we expect whole parking lots full of charging stations everywhere?


Yeah, the thinking is, things start off slow, then there is a period of rapid adoption:




I think as battery power increases, 500 mile+ ranges will make constant charging unneeded. I’m 80 miles from Stratton so I could just do an out & back.


----------



## Brownski

Home chargers make sense for the suburbs but not for the millions of city cars. A lot of people park on the street.


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> Home chargers make sense for the suburbs but not for the millions of city cars. A lot of people park on the street.


Yep. So in Gowanus brooklyn there is a whole foods with solar panels everywhere. Pretty easy to drop in L2 chargers at every spot. If you get 30 miles in your 1 hour shopping trip, most city dwellers are set for the week. 









						Third and 3rd (Brooklyn) Store | Whole Foods Market
					

Whole Foods Market Third and 3rd (Brooklyn) is your organic grocery store. Shop weekly sales and Amazon Prime member deals. Get delivery. Visit our eateries.




					www.wholefoodsmarket.com
				




Incidentally, not very far from the line of retreat from a little thing called the Battle of Brooklyn/Battle of Long Island in (I think) 1776. 

"I think for urban you will get a mix where every parking lot has a good percentage of L2 (15-30 miles an hour) and perhaps over time staggered charging spots on streets."


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> Interestingly, Tesla won't put out a new model purportedly to focus on selling more units.


They better concentrate on getting their body panels to line up or they'll be in trouble. If they don't, once volume picks up, JD Power will have a field day with their poor quality. I promise you the big boy players will not have quality issues like that.


----------



## Brownski

DomB said:


> If you get 30 miles in your 1 hour shopping trip, most city dwellers are set for the week


What about Thursday night when everybody is getting ready to go to the beach or lake or grandma’s house? Seriously. I’m genuinely curious. If nobody has addressed it, just say so. (I mean somebody amongst the people that are supposed to be leading us to the EV promised land, not you or me). As far as I can see, nobody has proposed a charging network that comes anywhere close to what we’ll need.


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> What about Thursday night when everybody is getting ready to go to the beach or lake or grandma’s house? Seriously. I’m genuinely curious. If nobody has addressed it, just say so. (I mean somebody amongst the people that are supposed to be leading us to the EV promised land, not you or me). As far as I can see, nobody has proposed a charging network that comes anywhere close to what we’ll need.


Haha. Look I always try to be honest, was not trying to hide the ball. I don't have a good answer without thinking about it. 

I'll make my points, but I have no particular hills to die on. 

There are some historical analogies suggesting this problem will be solved. Look at all the subway lines - ever think about why they overlap? There was lots of private competition. I could see private efforts, sharing technology, public efforts, or combinations. Moreover, the places you are talking about typically like to tax and spend more, suggesting more likelihood municipalities will try to address it. While I often don't have faith in municipalities, this area (like defense and other areas where there are freerider issues) is arguably a good one for government to jump into (getting charging infrastructure up). And the bill that passed has a bunch of charging subsidies (again I have not looked into). Maybe next time I am on vacay I will give it some good thought. 

When I have a bit more time I'll check into it. Like a lot of people I tend to focus on problems most directly affecting me, which will be how good are the high speed chargers on 87. 

While I am psyched for EV adoption, I am not intentionally trying to ram it down anyone's fairway. Plenty of ramming in the other threads : )


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Is that convenient? I'm thinking when people can park in their normal spot, it will make a big difference.


It is closer than lot 1. I am not sure how they deal with the spots. It would be lucky to be able to park your ev there all day.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> It is closer than lot 1. I am not sure how they deal with the spots. It would be lucky to be able to park your ev there all day.


Those things are suppose to be self driving.
Just let the robot back it up for the next EV waiting while yer out on the slopes.


----------



## Harvey

No idea if this would be productive, and the fact that it is not happening is probably the answer.

But what if the roof of each car was a solar panel. In a day of parking while at work how many miles could you gain?


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> No idea if this would be productive, and the fact that it is not happening is probably the answer.
> 
> But what if the roof of each car was a solar panel. In a day of parking while at work how many miles could you gain?


Next to nothing at this time.


----------



## Brownski

You’re not the first person to think of it. If it worked, somebody would do it.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> You’re not the first person to think of it. If it worked, somebody would do it.





Harvey said:


> No idea if this would be productive, and the fact that it is not happening is probably the answer.


----------



## Harvey

This is pretty funny:





__





Can I Put a Solar Panel on my Car Roof? – Solar Website







diysolarshack.com





It tells you how to do the whole process, and at the end it says basically that it is worthless.


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> What about Thursday night when everybody is getting ready to go to the beach or lake or grandma’s house? Seriously. I’m genuinely curious. .


Isn’t the power grid generally stressed during the day & then less stressed at night?


----------



## Ripitz

Battery swapping makes the most sense to me. Fuel stations could be reimagined instead of abandoned. The cost of the battery is very high and is a barrier for most people. If you bought a base EV sans battery it brings the price way down. Batteries can be utilized through a subscription based on usage. This takes the high cost risk of battery replacement away from the customer. The swap is now under 10 minutes and getting faster all the time. The swapping stations are more costly to build though so that’s why the plug will be the cheap go to for a while. Parking lots at urban hubs with charging stations and solar roofs will most likely come first.








Battery Swapping for EVs Is Big in China. Here’s How It Works







www.bloomberg.com


----------



## trackbiker

I think most people here are doing more driving miles than the average person. Think about how many miles you drive in a typical day when you are not heading to the slopes on the weekend. I drive 32 miles round trip to work and back and maybe add three or 4 more miles if I do an errand on the way home. If I'm not skiing on the weekends and run a few errands I do maybe 10 to 12 miles per day. At that rate I would have to charge about every 1.5 weeks. Granted many people commute farther but most people could get by with a Plug-In Hybrid like Marz's and use very little gas except for longer trips. A two car family could easily have one electric and one Plug-In Hybrid for longer trips. Just looking around my office, most people could use a Plug-In Hybrid and never use gas except for their once a year vacation trip.


----------



## Harvey

trackbiker said:


> A two car family could easily have one electric and one Plug-In Hybrid for longer trips.


This. My wife could totally drive an EV, she drive 40 miles most days.


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> Battery swapping makes the most sense to me. Fuel stations could be reimagined instead of abandoned. The cost of the battery is very high and is a barrier for most people. If you bought a base EV sans battery it brings the price way down. Batteries can be utilized through a subscription based on usage. This takes the high cost risk of battery replacement away from the customer. The swap is now under 10 minutes and getting faster all the time. The swapping stations are more costly to build though so that’s why the plug will be the cheap go to for a while. Parking lots at urban hubs with charging stations and solar roofs will most likely come first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Battery Swapping for EVs Is Big in China. Here’s How It Works
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com


There are a number of problems with swapping.
1. Car companies will never agree to any standards for swapping.
2. The infrastructure to safely move the heavy battery+store+charge+maintain an inventory of batteries is astronomical. What company wants to inventory one of the most expensive parts of the vehicle? That is dead money. Additionally, until somebody convinces the authorities and population that Small Modular Reactors are safe, the power generation needed is off the charts. There are also potentially huge fire hazards storing batteries.
3. The batteries can be liquid cooled and are major structural components of many EVs. This makes them almost impossible to replace.
4. In the example above, buying a vehicle without a battery will probably require an ongoing subscription and a charge to swap. These batteries might have smaller capacity/range/no liquid cooling leading me to believe this would be an entry level situation. The profit in vehicles is not found in the entry level class.

Why do you think Tesla did not go down this path? Currently, it takes 3-13 hours to replace a model S battery. The cost of the battery is $12k-$15K. How much would it cost Tesla to inventory enough batteries to accommodate Tesla owners?


----------



## Brownski

MC2 said:


> Isn’t the power grid generally stressed during the day & then less stressed at night?


Different issue. I am wondering if there will be enough stations in cities for all these vehicle owners to get at one when they need to.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> B - I think that we'll all have home chargers in the burbs and rural (NEMA 14-50 [dryer plug on 240]) will charge all but the largest vehicles over night, and the numbers on how far most commute each day are way less than that. I think for urban you will get a mix where every parking lot has a good percentage of L2 (15-30 miles an hour) and perhaps over time staggered charging spots on streets.


I saw a charger in downtown Raleigh. Or was it two? It was in the district with state and county government buildings, plus a couple of big museums for history and science.

There is "urban" like Raleigh and then there is "urban" like Manhattan. In Raleigh the percentage of people limited to on street parking is pretty small. Very different story in Manhattan. Although perhaps early adopters of EV are more likely to have garage parking in their apartment building.

My friends who live in Cleveland who bought a RAV4 Prime are in a condo complex with an indoor garage. Recently faster chargers were installed. Then rules for how to make use of them were put in place. Mainly a time limit so that someone doesn't just park their car there overnight. They had to buy a faster charging cable since a full charge with the standard cable takes 11-12 hours.


----------



## MarzNC

The way the Tesla SuperChargers are set up at the gas stations in VA and other states I've gone through in the past year, there are 8 stations. 4 are limited to 10 minutes. 4 are unlimited so presumably okay to leave the car for 20-30 minutes and go in to get something to eat. I've seen more Teslas actively charging in recent months at the station I stop at in Lynchburg, VA. There seemed to be a line the last time, which was around lunch time midweek.

Sheetz is partnering with Tesla. Saw a gas/convenience store company on the way to Colorado that had the same set up.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> The background on this is cool. They were supposed to get a media car, but it apparently had an accident coming off the delivery truck. An employee owner at the shop they were picking it up at was like, just take mine. That's why in one of the tests they lined the bed with plywood.


Is this the video you were thinking about with the bed of the R1T lined with plywood?


----------



## tirolski

Elon's been tweetin trucks lately too, so there’s that.


----------



## MarzNC

An EV motorcycle? The LiveWire from Harley-Davidson.

August 2021








2021 Harley-Davidson LiveWire Review


If the Harley-Davidson LiveWire is a glimpse at what the future looks like, then we are pretty excited




www.bikesales.com.au


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> An EV motorcycle? The LiveWire from Harley-Davidson.
> 
> August 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2021 Harley-Davidson LiveWire Review
> 
> 
> If the Harley-Davidson LiveWire is a glimpse at what the future looks like, then we are pretty excited
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bikesales.com.au


Rip and Camp have posted about e motorcycles, I think. I cannot imagine how ridiculously fast they may be, as a 7,000 pound SUV can go to 60 in about 3 seconds . . . .


----------



## DomB

This is interesting: even though the Taycan's HWY rating is 240 mi, Tom Mulvaney, who tests EVs at 70mph, got 298 in that test. 

Porsche and Tesla seemed to have taken different approaches - Porsche under promieses and over delivers; Tesla over promises on range.


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> This is interesting: even though the Taycan's HWY rating is 240 mi, Tom Mulvaney, who tests EVs at 70mph, got 298 in that test.
> 
> Porsche and Tesla seemed to have taken different approaches - Porsche under promieses and over delivers; Tesla over promises on range.











Electric Porsche breaks battery record by driving from LA to New York with just 2.5 hours of charge — The Independent


The 4,500km journey cost just $76.82 in electricity from the charging stations




apple.news


----------



## DomB

This is one of the cool thing about EVs - after you buy them, they should continue to get better. An over the air update from Rivian is (apparently) approving both the fast charging curve and charging in the cold. 

The screenshot is from someone with the screenname Iwantatesla (funny since he got one of the first nonemployee trucks that I know of). That is the person I ran into in a Target parking lot, which is pretty fun (he is a very nice guy). 









Improved charging curve included in latest OTA software update


People can commence argument on how this will actually change the charge curve. Posted by @Iwantatesla




www.rivianforums.com


----------



## tirolski

Flyin in an Alice would be quieter than a jet or plane is.




__





Eviation – Eviation Alice







www.eviation.co


----------



## jasonwx

tirolski said:


> Flyin in an Alice would be quieter than a jet or plane is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eviation – Eviation Alice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.eviation.co


440 mile range ooof
What do you do if you encounter a head wind or you need to deviate to a different airport


----------



## tirolski

jasonwx said:


> 440 mile range ooof
> What do you do if you encounter a head wind or you need to deviate to a different airport


They make parachutes for a reason.
More range with less folks on board.


----------



## DomB

When (I don't think it is "if") Ev's are viable for air travel, that will help a lot with emissions. 

I remember when I lived in Brooklyn, drove maybe 1,000 miles a year, took mass transit or walked, and had one trip to Poland for a family on a C02 calculator - I had the same footprint as the average American, which not to be cute is pretty bad.


----------



## MC2

Wow!









Four fast chargers every 50 miles—US unveils EV infrastructure plan


Nationwide EV charging network is moving forward quickly.




arstechnica.com


----------



## DomB

MC2 said:


> Wow!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Four fast chargers every 50 miles—US unveils EV infrastructure plan
> 
> 
> Nationwide EV charging network is moving forward quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> arstechnica.com


Sweet. NY's current map of active or in progress/negotiation is close to fast charger every 50 miles near hwy (actually by you MC it is better cuz, of course, Albany takes care of the capital region : ) )


----------



## DomB

Sandy Munro love fest with RJ of Rivian:


----------



## DomB

Separately I finally have some kind of conflict to disclose to be fair - yesterday I purchased my first individual stock ever, not a significant amount in context. So now instead of being a fanboy, I am vested in their success. 

I plan never to sell unless it goes up 10x (which I put at a 15% chance, along with a 15% chance of going to 0).


----------



## DomB

For Camp: Sandy Munro at 22 min: 'I have been looking at the gaps and these look pretty good'


----------



## DomB

Sandy's only complaint: he would have liked an optional steering yolk instead of a steering wheel. So I'd say positive for Rivian.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> When (I don't think it is "if") Ev's are viable for air travel, that will help a lot with emissions.
> 
> I remember when I lived in Brooklyn, drove maybe 1,000 miles a year, took mass transit or walked, and had one trip to Poland for a family on a C02 calculator - I had the same footprint as the average American, which not to be cute is pretty bad.


Somebody went electric wingsuit flying.


----------



## DomB

For those counting in super bowl commercials - EVs 4, ICE 0. 

EVs: GM, BMW, Nissan, Hyundai.


----------



## MarzNC

There are at least a dozen EV chargers at Taos Ski Valley. There are at the near the end of the parking lots that is closest to where the open shuttles drop people off. You drive by them to get into the lot that's for overnight guests at the lodges and condos at the base (free parking). TSV is the only B-Corp ski resort, so they take EV seriously.

A friend who lives in Albuquerque has an EV car. She and her husband have a condo close to town. One morning when she got a late start, she parked in an EV spot since the regular parking lots were clearly about to fill up and everyone else would be in the overflow lots. So the demand isn't that high yet.

The public parking lot with meters in Taos had two charging stations.





EV chargers are on the beyond the frame of the picture on the left side


----------



## DomB

This is interesting: a 2020 Michigan startup just demo'd a prototype battery that took a model S 752 miles on a single charge. They say they will demo a production version of it in 2023. If these things go into production, it pretty much takes away the range anxiety argument: you can top off at your home or a fast charger in a pinch, but you won't really need to charge on a trip. 









Range


Double the density. Double the distance. The Gemini dual-chemistry battery can power an electric vehicle for 600+ miles. Goodbye range anxiety.




one.ai





Some of the EV's being brought to market look like they are going to be obsolete before they even get made! Rivian is a sweet vehicle but some are criticizing the voltage it can take in for its charging.


----------



## DomB

In the category of 'would not have believed': Ford made just about as many electric 'mustangs' as gas powered. Of course, two completely different cars: 









2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E GT: The Strong, Silent Type


Ford’s all-electric Mustang is now produced in numbers that rival the gas-powered version. Dan Neil sizes up its performance against the comparable Tesla.




www.wsj.com


----------



## MarzNC

Is something like this being sold in the USA?









Why portable EV charging units - that can double as grid storage - are all the Go


ZipCharge announces trial of its portable EV charging solution that can double as energy storage for the grid.




thedriven.io


----------



## DomB

This is sad to see, but certainly something folks here have flagged. Details are not clear, but it looks like EVs en route from Germany to the US caught fire. It is unclear if the cargo is EVs only, or ICE too. 









Burning Electric-Vehicle Batteries Complicate Efforts to Fight Fire on Drifting Ship in Atlantic Ocean


The Felicity Ace merchant ship was carrying around 4,000 cars from Germany to the U.S., including Porsche sports cars and super-luxury Bentleys, when it caught fire in the Atlantic Ocean.




www.wsj.com


----------



## tirolski

Munro was astounded,
_"Invented some new kind of physics."




_


----------



## Ripitz

Ford launches its bi-directional home charging station at a surprisingly good price — Electrek


Ford has launched its new Ford Charge Station Pro, a bi-directional home charging station that works with the upcoming F-150 Lightning electric pickup truck.




apple.news


----------



## tirolski

I wonder if ya had a paddle wheel &/or windmill like thingys🍺🍺 that made electric cars wheels spin could ya make electricity?🤔


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> This is sad to see, but certainly something folks here have flagged. Details are not clear, but it looks like EVs en route from Germany to the US caught fire. It is unclear if the cargo is EVs only, or ICE too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Burning Electric-Vehicle Batteries Complicate Efforts to Fight Fire on Drifting Ship in Atlantic Ocean
> 
> 
> The Felicity Ace merchant ship was carrying around 4,000 cars from Germany to the U.S., including Porsche sports cars and super-luxury Bentleys, when it caught fire in the Atlantic Ocean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com


She sank


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> She sank


Dang








'Felicity Ace' Cargo Ship Reportedly Sunk: Was Carrying Porsches, Lamborghinis


The ship was in the midst of a salvage effort and was supposed to have been towed to land. Some 4000 new vehicles are on board and were already expected to be beyond help.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Campgottagopee said:


> She sank


I wonder how many guys, going through a mid-life crisis, are saying, "whew, now I don't have to explain that purchase to my wife."


----------



## Brownski

I know one guy who had a Porsche in there- probably more of a 4/5 or 3/4 life crisis though


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I know one guy who had a Porsche in there- probably more of a 4/5 or 3/4 life crisis though


Ouch
That stinks!


----------



## tirolski

Tis a sad day when lots of Posches, Bentleys and Lamborghinis sit on the ocean floor.
Wonder what the whales and sharks are gonna be thinking?


----------



## trackbiker

SpongeBob and Patick didn't think the sinking was so bad.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

tirolski said:


> Tis a sad day when lots of Posches, Bentleys and Lamborghinis sit on the ocean floor.
> Wonder what the whales and sharks are gonna be thinking?


Bipedal privilege?


----------



## tirolski

D.B. Cooper said:


> Bipedal privilege?


They both propel using fins. 
No need to peddle.
Same property as Hobie’s mirage drive.


----------



## DomB

Separately, this may end up being either a very bad or very good day for Rivian. They just dropped a 20% plus price increase on order holders (save for the few that were actually in the delivery process). Posted in response to Marznc, but I don't know if we will go through with purchasing. 

Unlike Tesla, they increased prices on past order holders - not folks who order after the price increase announcement. 

The Rivian order community is even more fanish than me, but as you would imagine many are reacting very negatively. Even some I know who are not hit by the price increase (and therefore could turn around and sell for an extra 20k) aren't sure if they will go through with their purchase because they are not sure what to expect or trust from Rivian.


----------



## DomB

As noted in the ski conditions thread, I stopped at a newly opened EVolveNY highspeed (150-350kw) electric charger a few miles north of Glenn Falls, 40 miles to Gore. 

There I saw what I concluded is a tester Mercedes EQA, a 5-7 seater ev available in China now but coming to the US later this year. Note that the engineers could not provide any information like mfg, make, model, but there were a handful of observable signs, including the state of the mfg plate and a Mercedes symbol on the brake pad. Google searches led me to the similarities to the Mercedes EQA. The internet says (so take with a grain of salt) a version will have 311 miles of range, and pricing is expected to start around 55k (no way the 311 mi version is that low). 

Here are some pics:


----------



## DomB

Drat. Pic problem continues . . . .


----------



## DomB

Here: I guess I can do it from my phone. I asked permission before taking pictures which was granted.


----------



## DomB

BTW, the charging location was super convenient. Exit 17 (I think), .7 mi from the highway at a Stewarts, behind the building so you are not competing with ICE's for space (good for Stewarts). At least if you are there for 10-20 min charging you can buy one of their 4m egg sandwiches sold annually (yikes).


----------



## DomB

Long in text but here is the station's address and info if helpful to any EV users or anyone else; if you have an ICE, consider stopping here for gas. I know I will:









EVolve NY Planned Sites - Google My Maps


List of upcoming EVolve NY Sites




www.google.com


----------



## DomB

1311 Saratoga Rd Gansevoort, NY 12831


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> I’d rather get a horse like wondepony. They’re more fun.


How many miles a gallon do ya get on yer horse @wonderpony?


----------



## x10003q

DomB said:


> Here: I guess I can do it from my phone. I asked permission before taking pictures which was granted.


Why would you ask permission? They are out in public.


----------



## DomB

I asked out of courtesy and then posted here in case it would raise any issues for the blog. The engineers were very nice. They asked me not to take pictures of the interior or the display (both of which were very nice but hey I am coming from a CRV) so I did not.


----------



## DomB

Rivian had its earnings call yesterday. Takeaways - 


after the price increase their orders are still pacing well (surprising to me)
about 1/2 who cancelled uncancelled after prices went back (not stated but Rivian appears to have called them individually)
They are reducing production target from 50k to 25k for the R1s, R1t and Amazon Van (note they are required to deliver 10k to Amazon this year) due to supply constraint (they say not production ramp).
Production rates are increasing. 
They will push out R1ts before R1s (I think we knew that). 
I take it they will produce 10-15k R1s. The speculation is there are 5-10k Launch Editions. I am still told I am on track for a May-June delivery. I have been seeing a lot of actual R1t deliveries on the Rivian blogs. 

Price dropped after hours, largely on production cuts. 



https://assets.rivian.com/2md5qhoeajym/7MVaHLcGevcUKE0QZZjzEZ/e3ac410e5f9676c894389c6bc844f1e7/Rivian-Q4-2021-Shareholder-Letter.pdf


----------



## Brownski

I’ve seen 3 or 4 on the road in Westchester if that offers you any encouragement


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> I’ve seen 3 or 4 on the road in Westchester if that offers you any encouragement


It does. I know someone who should be getting delivery on LI early next week. Pretty cool.


----------



## Brownski

Now that I think of it, maybe I just saw the same truck 3 or 4 times


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> Now that I think of it, maybe I just saw the same truck 3 or 4 times


More likely.


----------



## MarzNC




----------



## DomB

The first posted 70 mph range test (done in 52 degrees): 290 miles in conserve mode on 20 inch AT wheels, which is better than I would have expected. Rivian tells buyers that the 20s should have 10-15% less range than the EPA stated 314/316 for R1t/R1s. I am pretty happy with these results. The next question is cold weather results. 

Separately, a friend had his R1t delivered and passed by. The vehicles are really amazing. Even though I drove one once before, you forget how insane the performance is on 0-60 or height and ride (stiff, soft) at a touch of a button.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I say this with peace and love (stole that from Jason), but screw Rivian. If I wanted an EV truck I'd be all over this one.









2024 Ram 1500 EV: Design, Performance And Everything Else We Know So Far About The Electric Truck | Carscoops


Lets shed some light on those darkened 2024 Ram 1500 EV teasers and see what Stellantis is planning for its electric pickup




www.carscoops.com


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> I say this with peace and love (stole that from Jason), but screw Rivian. If I wanted an EV truck I'd be all over this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2024 Ram 1500 EV: Design, Performance And Everything Else We Know So Far About The Electric Truck | Carscoops
> 
> 
> Lets shed some light on those darkened 2024 Ram 1500 EV teasers and see what Stellantis is planning for its electric pickup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.carscoops.com


Haha. I actually want a 3 row SUV so I think if I don't want to wait 3 more years, Rivian is really the only choice. The other choices will be a Kia but who knows when and a Vietnamese company that is also in the who knows when category.


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> I actually want a 3 row SUV


Do 3rd row jump seats count?








E.C.D. Builds the Classic Defender of Your Fantasies


Its Tesla-powered drivetrain is the latest offering in a long line of incredibly restored custom Defenders.




www.roadandtrack.com


----------



## DomB

Ripitz said:


> Do 3rd row jump seats count?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E.C.D. Builds the Classic Defender of Your Fantasies
> 
> 
> Its Tesla-powered drivetrain is the latest offering in a long line of incredibly restored custom Defenders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.roadandtrack.com


That is close to a generous college savings plan : )


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> I say this with peace and love (stole that from Jason), but screw Rivian. If I wanted an EV truck I'd be all over this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2024 Ram 1500 EV: Design, Performance And Everything Else We Know So Far About The Electric Truck | Carscoops
> 
> 
> Lets shed some light on those darkened 2024 Ram 1500 EV teasers and see what Stellantis is planning for its electric pickup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.carscoops.com


The list of bigger truck entrants in the article: "The RAM 1500 BEV will compete directly against the Ford F-150 Lightning, Chevrolet Silverado EV/GMC Sierra twins, Hummer EV SUT and the Tesla’s Cybertruck (when it eventually arrives)." Is the F-150 Lightning the only one expected to be delivered to customers before Summer 2022?

My old friend who owns a trucking company has to admit the F-150 Lightning is pretty cool . . . and he hates Ford trucks in general.


----------



## tirolski

If ICE vehicles go away then so does some of this.


----------



## DomB

Sandy got an R1t. He couldn't bring himself to tear it down. Interesting look at the suspension. In theory I will be in an R1s by end of June. Deliveries are happening to people in their window, and some people who have May/June dates are getting calls (not for the R1s yet, though).


----------



## DomB

This is what Camp and others have been saying.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> Sandy got an R1t. He couldn't bring himself to tear it down. Interesting look at the suspension. In theory I will be in an R1s by end of June. Deliveries are happening to people in their window, and some people who have May/June dates are getting calls (not for the R1s yet, though).


R1S?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Let's talk cars.
Raise your hand if you'd purchase a pre-owned EV. If so, what manufacturers would you look at? What would you expect to pay for said EV? Would you be concerned about warranty?


----------



## Tjf1967

No but I don't buy used cars.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Let's talk cars.
> Raise your hand if you'd purchase a pre-owned EV. If so, what manufacturers would you look at? What would you expect to pay for said EV? Would you be concerned about warranty?


Of course not. Hopefully, Lithium Ion batteries don't end up being our version of asbestos.


----------



## Ripitz

New Mexico ski resort looks to reach net-zero emissions with help of a 100% electric snow groomer


Taos Ski Valley in New Mexico recently became the first North American ski resort to use a fully-electric snow groomer on the mountain.




electrek.co


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Let's talk cars.
> Raise your hand if you'd purchase a pre-owned EV. If so, what manufacturers would you look at? What would you expect to pay for said EV? Would you be concerned about warranty?



We have generally been new car people, so no. I only buy used cars from my dad, and he doesn't drive much anymore so his cars last FOREVER.

My wife's Prius is 10 years old (130,000 miles), I'm pretty sure it had an 8 year battery warrantee. If we were buying that car, and the owner didn't have proof that the battery had been replaced, I'd ask for $3000(?) off to replace it. The rest of the car seems to last a long time. 

A Prius with a bad battery is the same if you came across a car that needed an engine rebuild, would you buy it?


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> New Mexico ski resort looks to reach net-zero emissions with help of a 100% electric snow groomer
> 
> 
> Taos Ski Valley in New Mexico recently became the first North American ski resort to use a fully-electric snow groomer on the mountain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co


A little more detail in this article.

April 21, 2022








US Ski Resort Switches To Continent’s First All-Electric Trail Groomer - The Whiteroom


Taos Ski Valley in New Mexico, USA, says it will be the first in North America to put an all new fully electrically powered trail groomer to work, smoothing its slopes. Many ski resorts have switched to fully renewable electric power for their lifts, snowmaking and most other operations, some...



www.snow-forecast.com




_" . . .
The PistenBully 100 E uses a 126kwh battery and can operate for four hours per charge. Taos plans to install specialty charging stations for it in strategic locations throughout the mountain, and the resort has also installed 20 EV charging stations for guests and the local community to use. Taos secures its electricity through the Kit Carson Electric Cooperative, so the daytime electricity used at the EV charging stations is generated through solar arrays, furthering the resort’s net-zero commitment. Kit Carson Electric will be 100% daytime solar in June 2022.

The new PistonBully 100 E is expected to be delivered to Taos in Q1 2023 and will be deployed on the mountain during the Winter 23 ski season.
. . ."_

The charging stations for EV cars at TSV are in a prime location relatively close to where parking lot shuttles drop people off.


----------



## MarzNC

Here's an EV way to clear snow from a driveway . . . inspired by the Cybertruck. 

December 29, 2021








Meet the Cyberkat, a Miniature Remote-Controlled EV Designed to Help You Clear Snow


Inspired by Tesla’s Cybertruck, the mini EV starts at $1,299.




robbreport.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> A Prius with a bad battery is the same if you came across a car that needed an engine rebuild, would you buy it?


I'd be more concerned needing a battery than I would an engine rebuild. Engines are nothing but nuts and bolts, and I don't know squat about batteries.

I asked this question due to seeing an amazing amount of used Tesla's for sale at auctions. Blows my mind. No way would I buy a used one, but someone is.


----------



## Campgottagopee

MarzNC said:


> Here's an EV way to clear snow from a driveway . . . inspired by the Cybertruck.
> 
> December 29, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meet the Cyberkat, a Miniature Remote-Controlled EV Designed to Help You Clear Snow
> 
> 
> Inspired by Tesla’s Cybertruck, the mini EV starts at $1,299.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> robbreport.com


They call that "snow"???

Man, the feeling of being "green" really is something.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> They call that "snow"???
> 
> Man, the feeling of being "green" really is something.


Yup. 
Take yer jet fueled jets to ski and feel green. YMMV.


----------



## Harvey

^^ The article title is misleading. Or maybe I missed the part in the video where it clears snow, didn't watch it all.

I would by that for Neve for Christmas if it was $129. Looks like fun, but $1300 is a lot of money./


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I would by that for Neve for Christmas if it was $129. Looks like fun, but $1300 is a lot of money./


Someday we'll get there


----------



## Harvey

Someday 13 hunge won't be a lot of money, or the electric RC snowblower will get cheaper?


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'd like to think electric will come down
I look at it like drills, saws, etc. All battery operated tools are in the same price range now as electric and gas powered stuff. At least the ones I use are.


----------



## tirolski

Little electric chainsaws are sweet & somewhat safer.
Ya don’t get the blue smoke neither.


----------



## tirolski

2nd Rivian up for auction at bringatrailer.








2022 Rivian R1T Launch Edition Quad-Motor


Bid for the chance to own a 2022 Rivian R1T Launch Edition Quad-Motor at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #72,679.




bringatrailer.com




Should be interesting.


----------



## gorgonzola

tirolski said:


> Little electric chainsaws are sweet & somewhat safer.
> Ya don’t get the blue smoke neither.


I love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning!


----------



## jasonwx

gorgonzola said:


> I love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning!


It smells like……victory


----------



## tirolski

gorgonzola said:


> I love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning!


The dang old rototiller made enough blue smoke just running straight gas. YMMV.


----------



## x10003q

jasonwx said:


> It smells like……victory


Lt Col Killgore at the helm


----------



## tirolski

jasonwx said:


> It smells like……victory


Just wanted to ride some waves, allegedly.


----------



## jasonwx

x10003q said:


> Lt Col Killgore at the helm


Lol
I just spent the weekend with my friend who is a Lt Col
No similarity


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> 2nd Rivian up for auction at bringatrailer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2022 Rivian R1T Launch Edition Quad-Motor
> 
> 
> Bid for the chance to own a 2022 Rivian R1T Launch Edition Quad-Motor at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #72,679.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bringatrailer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should be interesting.


Ah, the owner realized that if the goal is towing an RV for long distance trips, then the R1T is not the best vehicle.

This man has the same issue in Southern California. Ended up with two new trucks and has to decide which to keep.


----------



## x10003q

jasonwx said:


> Lol
> I just spent the weekend with my friend who is a Lt Col
> No similarity











						David Hackworth - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



The real Killgore - commanded an Air Cav brigade and used Civil War iconography among the troops and helecopters (like the crossed swords).


----------



## jasonwx

x10003q said:


> David Hackworth - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The real Killgore - commanded an Air Cav brigade and used Civil War iconography among the troops and helecopters (like the crossed swords).


Very cool
My buddy just retired
He’s Apache pilot. 
But has a engineering degree from wp and mit
Works in missile defense 
Won’t tell more then that.


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> Separately I finally have some kind of conflict to disclose to be fair - yesterday I purchased my first individual stock ever, not a significant amount in context. So now instead of being a fanboy, I am vested in their success.
> 
> I plan never to sell unless it goes up 10x (which I put at a 15% chance, along with a 15% chance of going to 0).


Ford appears they may be selling some of their shares in Rivian.








Rivian Hits New Low, Stock Plunges Nearly 20% As Early Investors Offload Shares In ‘Jittery Market’


The electric vehicle startup’s shares have tanked nearly 80% so far this year.




www.forbes.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

The Real Costs of Electric Car Ownership


Estimating the cost of driving electric is more complicated than calculating the cost of driving a conventional car.




www.cnet.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Like we've talked be4, even if you feel you'll be saving with an EV the government will take care of that.









						States hitting hybrid and electric car owners with new taxes
					

30 states are hitting hybrid and electric car owners with additional taxes to pay for highway maintenance, and a dozen more have proposals in their legislature.




					www.khou.com


----------



## trackbiker

Campgottagopee said:


> Like we've talked be4, even if you feel you'll be saving with an EV the government will take care of that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States hitting hybrid and electric car owners with new taxes
> 
> 
> 30 states are hitting hybrid and electric car owners with additional taxes to pay for highway maintenance, and a dozen more have proposals in their legislature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.khou.com


As a higher number of EV's hit the roads, the states will have to find a way to make up for the lost gas tax revenue for maintaining roads and bridges. Some have suggested a fee per mile driven per year. That seems pretty fair. People who use the the roads the most pay the most. I don't know if that's the best way to do this but in any case, it is inevitable that EV's pay a fee towards mainting the roads and bridges.
What do you and others suggest?


----------



## MC2

trackbiker said:


> As a higher number of EV's hit the roads, the states will have to find a way to make up for the lost gas tax revenue for maintaining roads and bridges. Some have suggested a fee per mile driven per year. That seems pretty fair. People who use the the roads the most pay the most. I don't know if that's the best way to do this but in any case, it is inevitable that EV's pay a fee towards mainting the roads and bridges.
> What do you and others suggest?


Tax rich people & giant corporations (the ones with all the money) instead.


----------



## Campgottagopee

trackbiker said:


> What do you and others suggest?


Me?
I'll continue to burn gas in my monster 6.4 Hemi


----------



## Tjf1967

trackbiker said:


> As a higher number of EV's hit the roads, the states will have to find a way to make up for the lost gas tax revenue for maintaining roads and bridges. Some have suggested a fee per mile driven per year. That seems pretty fair. People who use the the roads the most pay the most. I don't know if that's the best way to do this but in any case, it is inevitable that EV's pay a fee towards mainting the roads and bridges.
> What do you and others suggest?


What about when you do most of your traveling on toll roads I guess gassers have the same problem. The NYS thruway authority has turned into the orda of roads


----------



## Tjf1967

MC2 said:


> Tax rich people & giant corporations (the ones with all the money) instead.


The let the other guy pay is the go to answer. Flatten everything


----------



## Sbob

Tjf1967 said:


> The let the other guy pay is the go to answer. Flatten everything


Corporations don’t pay taxes their customers do. 

Any body buying Rivian at a discount?


----------



## jasonwx

after watching this , ford might win this race


----------



## tirolski

Sbob said:


> Corporations don’t pay taxes their customers do.
> 
> Any body buying Rivian at a discount?


2 sold at bring a trailer auction at $119K 🤔 








Rivian


Browse and bid online for the chance to own a Rivian at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online.




bringatrailer.com


----------



## MC2

Sbob said:


> Corporations don’t pay taxes their customers do.


If that’s the case, consumer prices must be dropping like crazy after all of these corporate tax cuts!


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> after watching this , ford might win this race


From what I've seen, the R1T and Lightning target different markets.

Found it interesting that Sandy Munro is keeping the R1T that was originally bought to be taken apart.


----------



## MarzNC

Here are some pros and cons comparing an R1T EV to an F-150 hybrid for someone who wants to tow an RV . . . and lives in a house with lots of solar panels in southern CA.


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> From what I've seen, the R1T and Lightning target different markets.
> 
> Found it interesting that Sandy Munro is keeping the R1T that was originally bought to be taken apart.


very true
but fords been making pick ups for almost 70 yrs..rivian maybe 2 ?


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> but fords been making pick ups for almost 70 yrs..rivian maybe 2 ?


For sure Ford will be able to make and sell far more Lightnings in the next few years. Between having a much lower price point and a design that is very similar to the existing F-150 body, it's no contest.

I'm more curious to see what will happen between the F-150 Lightning and the GM Silverado EV in the next few years. GM is starting behind. Sales to actual customers won't start until 2023 at the earliest.


----------



## gorgonzola

VW jumping in the game too. IH Scouts were cool back in the day, as a kid I almost died in my cousins' at High Falls lol









Scout to Return in 2026 as VW's EV Off-Road Brand


Scout will become a new company under the VW Group conglomerate, with pickup and SUV prototypes to be revealed next year ahead of production in 2026.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## Brownski

Scouts were definitely cool. It”ll be interesting to see what they do with it.


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> Scouts were definitely cool. It”ll be interesting to see what they do with it.


Scouts were cool but I think they started rusting while they were building them in the factory.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> Scouts were definitely cool. It”ll be interesting to see what they do with it.


We had a Scout with the stick shift as kids.
Son a bitch broke an axle the night before opening day of deer season in Pa.
Almost froze my ass off staying with Scout while waiting for the tow truck on the old logging road.
It was repaired by morning.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> very true
> but fords been making pick ups for almost 70 yrs..rivian maybe 2 ?


#1 selling truck for most of those years too.
If it were me that's where I would go.


----------



## MarzNC

Ford brought a couple guys from Electrek to Texas to check out the F-150 Lightning. Included a 30-min tow of a small Airstream.

May 11, 2022








Ford F-150 Lightning first drive: This is BIG


Ford flew us down to San Antonio, Texas, and took us around town and out to a lovely country winery to test the Ford F-150 Lightning in its natural habitat. They say everything’s bigger in Texas… Ford calls the F-150 Lightning the smartest, most innovative F-150 that Ford has ever built. It is...




electrek.co


----------



## Ripitz

Pole to Pole: Nissan announces 17,000 mile trip from North to South in all-electric Ariya


Nissan announced a partnership with EV adventurer Chris Ramsey to drive a custom Ariya on a trip from the North Pole down to the South Pole.




electrek.co


----------



## Campgottagopee

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.








EV Tires Worse For The Environment Than Tailpipe Emissions


There's still some hesitation, but it seems that Americans are slowly warming up to the idea of owning an electric vehicle. A glance at the sales figures will show you that vehicles like the Tesla Model Y and the Ford Mustang Mach-E are enjoying great popularity with consumers.




carbuzz.com


----------



## MarzNC

Since this is a ski forum . . .

May 15, 2022








The Tesla Effect: Snowmobiles, Boats and Mowers Go Electric


They’re quieter and better for the climate. But snow and water create new technological challenges for designers.




www.nytimes.com




_" . . .
One of the first customers for Taiga snowmobiles was Taos Ski Valley in New Mexico, which markets itself as an environmentally conscious ski resort. The Taos ski patrol and trail maintenance workers will use the electric snowmobiles for tasks like transporting injured skiers or servicing snow-making equipment, said David Norden, the chief executive of Taos Ski Valley. When skiing resumes this year, Taos also plans to deploy an electric snow-grooming machine made by Kässbohrer Geländefahrzeug, a German firm.

Even if the electric snowmobiles, which start at $17,500, are more expensive than gasoline counterparts, which can be had for less than $10,000, the resort will save money on fuel and maintenance, Mr. Norden said.

“You do the cost-benefit analysis, you’re probably close to break even,” he said. “These are not only decisions for the environment but also good decisions for our bottom line.”
. . ."_


----------



## Campgottagopee

These things certainly have many fingers


https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/ev-owners-face-challenges-when-its-time-for-new-tires/


----------



## MarzNC

Campgottagopee said:


> These things certainly have many fingers
> https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/ev-owners-face-challenges-when-its-time-for-new-tires/https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/ev-owners-face-challenges-when-its-time-for-new-tires/


Interesting.

Rivian partnered with Pirelli for tires. Clearly assorted tweaks from an engineering and materials standpoint.









Rivian Tires Review: A Collaboration with Pirelli


With this in mind, the closest competitor to the Rivian tires are the ones that they are based on. Pirelli's Verde, Zero, and All-Terrain models will deliver




tirehungry.com


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> These things certainly have many fingers
> https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/ev-owners-face-challenges-when-its-time-for-new-tires/https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/ev-owners-face-challenges-when-its-time-for-new-tires/


The article seemed to imply that EVs need quieter tires? Is that because the engine doesn't make as much noise?

I saw a Rivian yesterday.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> The article seemed to imply that EVs need quieter tires? Is that because the engine doesn't make as much noise?
> 
> I saw a Rivian yesterday.


Perhaps "need" isn't the best word. If a tire design results in more noise, it will be much more noticeable when driving an EV or in EV mode with a Plug-in Hybrid. Given the current price of EV vehicles, the target market is probably more sensitive to hearing noise during a test drive or early days after purchase.

Having no engine noise when off-roading was mentioned in more than one video of people testing out the R1T. There is no engine noise in EV mode with my RAV4 Prime. It's different.

What color Rivian?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> The article seemed to imply that EVs need quieter tires? Is that because the engine doesn't make as much noise?
> 
> I saw a Rivian yesterday.


That's my assumption, yes. Or it could be from the weight of the batteries? Or a combo of both?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Just saw my first Rivian (R1T Launch Edition) on a dealer auction. Buy it now price is $143,000. INSANE!


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> What color Rivian?


It was one of the greens.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Just saw my first Rivian (R1T Launch Edition) on a dealer auction. Buy it now price is $143,000. INSANE!


Are they selling any at that price?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Are they selling any at that price?


Not sure
First one I saw and I breezed right past it
It will be interesting as these things hit the auctions


----------



## Harvey

With a price like that either they are selling at that price or there is zero supply.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Are they selling any at that price?





Harvey said:


> With a price like that either they are selling at that price or there is zero supply.


Yep, Supply & Demand rules.

There was an R1T sold a few weeks ago for $135K. Apparently one that was listed at $150K around the same time wasn't getting much quick interest.

Not many people who finally got an R1T after the long wait want to give it up. Even Sandy Munro ended up keeping the R1T that was bought to be torn apart. It's his wife's new car now. His group got another one to tear down. Sandy gets to drive the personal one every so often. He likes it a lot more than he expected.


----------



## MarzNC

I've watched enough videos with Sandy Munro to know that if he doesn't like something, he says so. Makes it a bit surprising how much he likes the R1T and Rivian in general. That comes across in the Kickoff video for the tear down that started a couple weeks ago.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Just saw my first Rivian (R1T Launch Edition) on a dealer auction. Buy it now price is $143,000. INSANE!


I will take 2, please


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Are they selling any at that price?


2 R1Ts sold for $119K each at Bring a Trailer.
There’s another auction going now for a third one.
Bid ends in 2 days. Bid is @ $97K now.









Rivian


Browse and bid online for the chance to own a Rivian at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online.




bringatrailer.com


----------



## Ripitz

Anyone coughing up $140,000 for a Ford ⚡️ F-150?https://electrek.co/2022/06/07/ford-dealer-doubles-price-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-truck/


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Anyone coughing up $140,000 for a Ford ⚡️ F-150?https://electrek.co/2022/06/07/ford-dealer-doubles-price-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-truck/


Nope!


----------



## Warp daddy

No ,next one IF I buy at all will be Rav Prime or Prius prime.Right now my 2018 Outback ltd has only 22k on it ,Just got 34'mpg on a round trip .Our daily driver 14'Rav XLE has 64,5 k gets 30, So we're Ok for awhile


----------



## Sbob

I’m going steam powered.,When I get to where I’m going my steaks will be ready 🤪


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> Anyone coughing up $140,000 for a Ford ⚡️ F-150?https://electrek.co/2022/06/07/ford-dealer-doubles-price-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-truck/


Ah, not exactly Ford but a few individual dealers who are marking up the price. Big difference between how people can buy a Ford, a Rivian, or a Toyota depending on what state they live in.

_". . .
Ford has started to deliver the F-150 Lightning electric pickup truck, but some dealers are taking advantage of the demand. One of them was spotted doubling the price of the electric pickup by adding a $69,000 markup.
. . .
Earlier this year, Ford warned dealers about engaging in these practices, but the automaker has limited power when it comes to controlling dealership price. The automaker can limit the F-150 Lighting allocation, the number of units it delivers to those dealers, if they mark them up too much.

More recently, Ford also told dealers not to sell F-150 Lightning demo vehicles too quickly, or they will face fines.
. . ."_


----------



## Tjf1967

Ford should experiment with selling them directly. Gouging like that may be legal.. It's their business do as you will but their should be repercussions. Hopefully Ford cuts them out of the lightening market.


----------



## MarzNC

Warp daddy said:


> No ,next one IF I buy at all will be Rav Prime or Prius prime.Right now my 2018 Outback ltd has only 22k on it ,Just got 34'mpg on a round trip .Our daily driver 14'Rav XLE has 64,5 k gets 30, So we're Ok for awhile


Just finished a quick round trip to Lake Placid from NC with my daughter for a special event. Stayed at a friend's house in town for the weekend. Was fun to be able to plug in my RAV4 Prime overnight and do EV miles while in LP. Got about 40 mpg for the 2300 mile total miles that included a little EV. We used the option to charge while driving a few times when we forgot to switch to EV after a stop.

The Prime onboard computer includes EV miles in the MPG estimate provided when in HV mode. A little odd when it says "60 MPG" when I'm at home and using mostly EV miles.

The RAV4 Prime is a nice replacement for the 2007 minivan with 300,000+ miles on it that I used to drive to LP and/or Boston when my daughter was in school up north. We've had it since Nov 2020. Will be driving it to Colorado again this Dec.


----------



## MarzNC

Tjf1967 said:


> Ford should experiment with selling them directly. Gouging like that may be legal.. It's their business do as you will but their should be repercussions. Hopefully Ford cuts them out of the lightening market.


If Ford corporate gets someone to pay attention to the Lightning online forums, they will find out pretty quickly which dealers are adding ridiculous mark ups. Those dealers could find that they don't get any more Lightnings if the forum points them out.

Also depends on what price is charged for people who had put down a deposit a while back, compared to someone who only recently deciding a Lightning was of interest.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> It's their business do as you will but their should be repercussions.


There will be. If nothing else people won't forget. Ford is all over these guys but there's really nothing they can ddo due to dealer agreements, etc. The "S" in MSRP is for suggested and there's nothing a manufacturer can do about that, other than, as you mentioned, make it impossible for these bad apples not to get trucks anymore. That they can and will do. That said, if it's a major dealer Ford won't touch them as they make them too much money.


----------



## Brownski

Tjf1967 said:


> Hopefully Ford cuts them out of the lightening market.


If I were a Ford executive, this would be my mindset.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> If I were a Ford executive, this would be my mindset.


Until the bean counters showed you their reports.


----------



## MarzNC

Ford Lightning will be able to charge up a Tesla that's out of juice.

June 7, 2022








						Ford surprises F-150 Lightning owners with accessory that can recharge stranded Teslas
					

Ford said it wants its owners to “lend a hand.”




					www.theverge.com


----------



## MarzNC

Anyone remember the International Harvester Scout?

May 11, 2022








VW Will Bring Back Scout as an EV Brand


Volkswagen will resurrect the Scout name, made famous by International Harvester, as an affordable EV truck and SUV brand stateside.




www.autoweek.com





Learned about the announcement at the end of this towing test video. The load being towed was an old Scout. The tester was pretty impressed by the R1T.


----------



## Ripitz

Introducing ZiGGY: An autonomous robot that saves you a parking spot then charges your EV — Electrek


Charging technology provider EV Safe Charge has unveiled ZiGGY – a mobile robot that can charge an EV wherever it’s parked. Through its ability to recharge itself via different energy sources and its summoning feature, ZiGGY can alleviate the need to install specific parking stalls for EV...




apple.news


----------



## Brownski

With my luck, Ziggy will malfunction when he’s blocking me in and getting somebody to service him will be like getting your money back from a vending machine


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> With my luck, Ziggy will malfunction when he’s blocking me in and getting somebody to service him will be like getting your money back from a vending machine


Maybe if ya throw in some more coin Ziggy will play guitar along with the spiders from Mars.


----------



## Ripitz

The answer to more batteries? More batteries! Ziggy will be heavy AF too, be careful toppling him over. I can imagine videos of diesel trucks giving him a tour around the parking garage with a tow strap.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ouch 








Elon Musk says that Lucid and Rivian are tracking toward bankruptcy


Elon Musk says that electric vehicle startups Lucid and Rivian are tracking toward bankruptcy unless something changes. During an interview with the Tesla Silicon Valley Owners Club, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said that both Lucid Motors and Rivian, two US-based electric vehicle startups, are trending...




electrek.co


----------



## Ripitz

Stellantis is testing a Fiat 500 EV that charges wirelessly as it travels


Stellantis is testing wireless power transfer tech that might—if you happen to be on a special test track—render charging stops obsolete.




www.greencarreports.com


----------



## Harvey

I think Tesla's first profit was 2020, and they were in business for 10 or 15 years before that? I guess Elon is saying he was smart and kept his operation small while it was losing money.

Building charging into the road sounds kind of like a train or trolley car to me.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> I think Tesla's first profit was 2020, and they were in business for 10 or 15 years before that? I guess Elon is saying he was smart and kept his operation small while it was losing money.
> 
> Building charging into the road sounds kind of like a train or trolley car to me.


He is full of crap. He sold carbon credits to make money. He loves to bitch about the "Government", but those carbon credits are the only reason Tesla survived.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Building charging into the road sounds kind of like a train or trolley car to me.


There is a mine in Canada that is testing out having electric trucks based on having electric lines overhead. The article includes a video clip.

June 10, 2022 (Canada)








B.C. mine’s electrified trucks a Canadian first, with goal of net-zero GHG emissions | Globalnews.ca


The system electrifies mining trucks with trolley wires and poles similar to those used on transit buses power buses in urban centres, but on a giant scale.




globalnews.ca




_" . . .
To get a sense of the system, picture the trolley wires and poles used to electrically power buses in urban centres, but on a giant scale.

The cables currently cover a one-kilometre stretch out of the pit, with seven trucks equipped to take advantage of the electricity.

Walt Halipchuck, the company’s director of sustainable business development, spearheaded the initiative.

A traditional haul truck, he said, burns about 35 litres of diesel fuel on the one-kilometre climb out of the mining pit. The new trolley-assisted trucks burn under one litre for the same trip.

“The GHGs are basically less than 1 kg of GHG emissions, compared to about 85kg of GHG CO2 with diesel,” he said.

The program is the first of its kind in B.C. and Canada, and the first time a similar system has been used in North America since the 1980s, according to the company.
. . ."_


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> There is a mine in Canada that is testing out having electric trucks based on having electric lines overhead. The article includes a video clip.
> 
> June 10, 2022 (Canada)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B.C. mine’s electrified trucks a Canadian first, with goal of net-zero GHG emissions | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The system electrifies mining trucks with trolley wires and poles similar to those used on transit buses power buses in urban centres, but on a giant scale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _" . . .
> To get a sense of the system, picture the trolley wires and poles used to electrically power buses in urban centres, but on a giant scale.
> 
> The cables currently cover a one-kilometre stretch out of the pit, with seven trucks equipped to take advantage of the electricity.
> 
> Walt Halipchuck, the company’s director of sustainable business development, spearheaded the initiative.
> 
> A traditional haul truck, he said, burns about 35 litres of diesel fuel on the one-kilometre climb out of the mining pit. The new trolley-assisted trucks burn under one litre for the same trip.
> 
> “The GHGs are basically less than 1 kg of GHG emissions, compared to about 85kg of GHG CO2 with diesel,” he said.
> 
> The program is the first of its kind in B.C. and Canada, and the first time a similar system has been used in North America since the 1980s, according to the company.
> . . ."_


How’s the electricity made to power the trucks?
If it isn't nuclear, hydropower, solar or wind ya got to add that CO2 into their equations...


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> How’s the electricity made to power the trucks?
> If it isn't nuclear, hydropower, solar or wind ya got to add that CO2 into their equations...


Not sure. The Canadian who posted the link to another ski forum keeps noting that Canada has a lot of hydropower.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Ya can use goats for ski trail clearin too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Goatscaping at Mountain Creek
> 
> 
> Goatscaping at Mountain Creek where goats do the job of clearing over grown brush and grass from the resort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.njherald.com


They’re hiring a goat herder at Mount Baldy in Ontario too.








The Mount Baldy goats on CTV National news today 😀❤️ | By Mount Baldy Ski Area | Facebook


1.1 万 views, 233 likes, 54 loves, 30 comments, 196 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Mount Baldy Ski Area: The Mount Baldy goats on CTV National news today 😀❤️




fb.watch


----------



## Campgottagopee

This thing looks darn cool 








Hyundai's New Electric SUV Might Be A Retro Masterpiece


It's not common knowledge, but Hyundai built a proper off-roader known as the Galloper years ago. Based on the second-generation Mitsubishi Montero, the Galloper was ahead of its time. If Hyundai brought it back, what would it be? A render artist on Instagram thinks it would work beautifully as...




carbuzz.com


----------



## Sbob

MarzNC said:


> Not sure. The Canadian who posted the link to another ski forum keeps noting that Canada has a lot of hydropower.


I found this on my phone maps by accident. Not sure how much power it generates but pretty ingenious use . 








Manicouagan Reservoir Crater


Around 214 million years ago, an asteroid about 5 kilometers (3 miles) in diameter slammed into what is now Quebec, Canada, creating a crater about 100 kilometers (60 miles) across. The impact caused a shock wave and air blast that would have killed plants and animals within at least 500 kilometers…




www.planetary.org


----------



## jasonwx

Drove a model 3 duel motor today 
Holy crap so damn fast


----------



## MarzNC

Anyone watch the U.S. Open golf tournament last weekend? Noticed two ads related to EV cars. One teaser for a Lexus crossover SUV EV coming in Dec 2022. The other was for finding vacation rental lodging that included the option of EV charging.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Anyone watch the U.S. Open golf tournament last weekend? Noticed two ads related to EV cars. One teaser for a Lexus crossover SUV EV coming in Dec 2022. The other was for finding vacation rental lodging that included the option of EV charging.


Watched a lot ofit when I wasn’t golfing.
Gas powered golf carts aren’t as nice as electric carts but tis much better to walk & golf. Just saying.


----------



## tirolski

Anybody wanna Polestar?


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Anybody wanna Polestar?


Ah, the Volvo approach. I haven't been paying much attention to the EVs that are not SUVs or trucks. The Australians keep talking about the Kia Leaf EV.

2022 about the 2023 Polestar 2





2023 Polestar 2 Review, Pricing, and Specs


The Polestar 2 doesn’t provide the most range or the quickest acceleration among EV competitors, but it drives well and has a nice interior design.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## Ripitz

Holy smokes!








						Watch this Batmobile-style EV smash a speed record — The Next Web
					

A unique electric car has broken the speed record at the 2022 Goodwood Hillclimb track, an annual demonstration of racing vehicles in the UK. Driven by ex-F2 driver Max Chilton, the so-called McMurtry Spierling set a new record of 39.08 seconds on the 1.86km course. This shaved off about 0.8...




					apple.news


----------



## Campgottagopee

Hmmmmm, this is interesting.








						Ford eliminates end-of-lease purchase option for EVs - Autoblog
					

Ford appears to have designated June as the month for realigning customer rights. A few days ago came word that dealers would be able to insert language int




					www.autoblog.com
				




What's also interesting is that some auctions are selling EV's 100% as-is.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> Hmmmmm, this is interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ford eliminates end-of-lease purchase option for EVs - Autoblog
> 
> 
> Ford appears to have designated June as the month for realigning customer rights. A few days ago came word that dealers would be able to insert language int
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.autoblog.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's also interesting is that some auctions are selling EV's 100% as-is.


also means that work Lease is just a fancy way of saying Rental.. Not that it not, at least you had the option to purchase at the end..


----------



## tirolski

jasonwx said:


> also means that work Lease is just a fancy way of saying Rental.. Not that it not, at least you had the option to purchase at the end..


Y'all will own nothing and y'all be happy.


----------



## Campgottagopee

EVs Are Becoming More Expensive, Not Less


A few years ago, the industry narrative was that all-electric vehicles would reach financial parity with their combustion-driven counterparts in 2025. The assumption was that this would gradually occur by way of ramping up battery production and leveraging economies of scale. However, reality...




www.thetruthaboutcars.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> also means that work Lease is just a fancy way of saying Rental.. Not that it not, at least you had the option to purchase at the end..


I'm not sure what it means. It's somewhat a mute point because EV's have shitty residuals therefore making them a shitty lease candidate. Ford claims it's because they want to control the recycling of the batteries. I call foul, I say it's because the EV's are worth far more than their residual and they want that $$$$.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> EVs Are Becoming More Expensive, Not Less
> 
> 
> A few years ago, the industry narrative was that all-electric vehicles would reach financial parity with their combustion-driven counterparts in 2025. The assumption was that this would gradually occur by way of ramping up battery production and leveraging economies of scale. However, reality...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thetruthaboutcars.com


This is not surprising to me at all. I am also skeptical of the idea that we don’t need a hugely improved grid and a lot more (and cheaper) electricity generation for EVs to work on a societal level. Not to mention better electric versions of everything else that burns oil (container ships for instance). And nobody has come up with a sufficient answer to the pollution questions either. Just happy talk- which is crazy considering how far down the road we are on this.


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> This is not surprising to me at all. I am also skeptical of the idea that we don’t need a hugely improved grid and a lot more (and cheaper) electricity generation for EVs to work on a societal level. Not to mention better electric versions of everything else that burns oil (container ships for instance). And nobody has come up with a sufficient answer to the pollution questions either. Just happy talk- which is crazy considering how far down the road we are on this.


The answer is Small Modular Reactors. Unfortunately, we might not be smart enough to recognize it.You could install these things in old coal plants and pretty much be good to go.





Advanced Small Modular Reactors (SMRs)


Information on advanced small modular reactors and the Department of Energy's Small Modular Reactor Licensing Technical Support (SMR-LTS) Program.




www.energy.gov


----------



## trackbiker

x10003q said:


> The answer is Small Modular Reactors. Unfortunately, we might not be smart enough to recognize it.You could install these things in old coal plants and pretty much be good to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Advanced Small Modular Reactors (SMRs)
> 
> 
> Information on advanced small modular reactors and the Department of Energy's Small Modular Reactor Licensing Technical Support (SMR-LTS) Program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.energy.gov


Another answer is hydrogen fuel cells. One of the leading companies in the technology is Headquartered in Latham, NY near Albany.
Plug Power


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> . And nobody has come up with a sufficient answer to the pollution questions either. Just happy talk- which is crazy considering how far down the road we are on this.


Wait until these EV batteries start hitting. 
Green my ass!








Comptroller: DEC needs to recharge battery recycling enforcement


New York State isn't doing its job.




cnycentral.com


----------



## Brownski

yikes


----------



## Campgottagopee

Oh the irony. The regular guy is paying never seen before prices for gas, yet the rich (one's who can afford EV's) are getting topped off for free. You can't make this stuff up.









Free electric vehicle charging available in New York during Fourth of July holiday weekend


Free electric vehicle charging at all EVolve NY Direct Current Fast Charges across NYS from Friday, July 1 through Tuesday, July 5.




cnycentral.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Looks like we have some work to do.








The Ford F-150 Lightning Barely Made It 80 Miles With a Trailer


Not again, the 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning struggled with towing. See what impacts the Ford F-150 Lightning's range.




www.motorbiscuit.com


----------



## Harvey

Makes sense.

Right below that article was this puffy piece:









The 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Provides Crucial Towing Advantages


The Ford F-150 Lightning has been put to the test. See why the 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning is great for towing.




www.motorbiscuit.com


----------



## Harvey

WTAF??









Tesla Trying To Buy Cars Back From Owners With Cleverly-Worded Text Messages


If you own a Tesla, you are in a highly desirable position. Due to the ongoing supply and demand crisis, any Tesla owner can likely sell their car within minutes for a neat profit.




carbuzz.com





Why?


----------



## Brownski

Dealers have been doing this for many years via email and paper mail. What part are you questioning?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> WTAF??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla Trying To Buy Cars Back From Owners With Cleverly-Worded Text Messages
> 
> 
> If you own a Tesla, you are in a highly desirable position. Due to the ongoing supply and demand crisis, any Tesla owner can likely sell their car within minutes for a neat profit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carbuzz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?


Still no new cars available to dealers, used are driving the market. As an example I just bought a car from a customer for $1000 more than they paid for it a year ago. This will continue for at least a couple more years. The market is insane.


----------



## Campgottagopee

St. Pete family: Electric car battery replacement costs more than car


The family said a dealership told the family it would cost them about $14,000 to replace the car's battery.




www.wtsp.com


----------



## Brownski

That sucks. I thought I read somewhere that EVs‘ whole drivetrains were supposed to be guarantied to 100,000 miles.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> That sucks. I thought I read somewhere that EVs‘ whole drivetrains were supposed to be guarantied to 100,000 miles.


Most of the batteries have 8 year / 100,000 miles. Not sure about Ford.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> That sucks.


Those are all transition issues. None of it matters if you believe climate change is an existential threat to civilization. It’s either EVs or quit driving. 
I’m betting we’ll boil the oceans before we give up fossil fuels.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Those are all transition issues. None of it matters if you believe climate change is an existential threat to civilization. It’s either EVs or quit driving.
> I’m betting we’ll boil the oceans before we give up fossil fuels.
> 
> mm


Good gawd 
Bringing the drama


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Most of the batteries have 8 year / 100,000 miles. Not sure about Ford.


This was a 2014, 8 years old. Not everyone will be buying new EV's. Going forward this will become more and more common, imo.


----------



## Brownski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Those are all transition issues. None of it matters if you believe climate change is an existential threat to civilization. It’s either EVs or quit driving.
> I’m betting we’ll boil the oceans before we give up fossil fuels.
> 
> mm


It sucks for the people in the article though. No sympathy?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> It sucks for the people in the article though. No sympathy?


It sucks for them, but it’s a cautionary tale from the bottom of the learning curve for everyone else. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Good gawd
> Bringing the drama


It’s my natural pessimism about everything. But I’ve lived in Upstate NY for over 50 years now, and the change in the weather is frightening. Milder winters may be a good change for some, but what happens when everyone from Texas and Arizona move here? Or when all of Africa moves to Yurp?

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> It’s my natural pessimism about everything.


I believe you


Milo Maltbie said:


> . But I’ve lived in Upstate NY for over 50 years now, and the change in the weather is frightening.


Same. I'm not scared.


Milo Maltbie said:


> Milder winters may be a good change for some, but what happens when everyone from Texas and Arizona move here?


Lower taxes? Less rundown looking shithole houses and businesses?


Milo Maltbie said:


> Or when all of Africa moves to Yurp?


Never been there so I haven't a clue.


----------



## Harvey

Our Prius batteries are now 10 years old. Do you start to see a drop off, of does the whole thing just $hit the bed one day?

A few years ago I asked my guy Al how much to replace all the Prius batteries. He told me it fluctuated A LOT, could be $1000 or could be more than $3000. So I could see how that price for a full EV could be pretty high.


----------



## Ripitz

Long story but this just happened,

So, my wife just drove down to Washington for a four day business trip. On the second morning she feels sick, tests positive for Covid and decides to come home. She picked up our Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and the valet had apparently smashed the passenger side rear view mirror in some sort of accident. It’s now taped on. She gets on the road and somewhere in Maryland stopped for gas and food. She decided to use the supercharger to charge the battery too. Well, the car wouldn’t go in drive after that. There was some sort of EV code on the dash and she was stuck. She called the dealership where we bought the car and when they didn’t answer, she left a message. I’m up in the Catskills goofing off with barely any reception so I’m useless. She gets in touch with the local dealer down there and they say they have to tow the car because they can’t clear the code wirelessly. She waited so long for the tow that the dealership closed and couldn’t do it until the next day. She had to get Lyft to a hotel and spend the night which luckily her company paid for. The next day the cars all set and they did an oil change too since that was also needed. $200 later, she starts driving down the highway and calls me saying she’s dragging something but doesn’t think it’s serious. She gets home and I look under the car and the dust cover skid plate thingy 🍻 is hanging down with just a zip tie and a screw holding it. All of the push clips are gone and the holes in the plate are broken from when they ripped it off. Luckily, we have a guest cottage that she has been using to recover and she’s feeling much better. But jeez, what a shitshow.


----------



## Brownski

That sucks, man. Does the $200 include the hotel or is that what you paid the dealership to rip apart your skid plate?


----------



## Brownski

Milo Maltbie said:


> It sucks for them, but it’s a cautionary tale from the bottom of the learning curve for everyone else.
> 
> mm


The lesson I learned is don’t buy a used EV


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Never been there so I haven't a clue.


I believe you.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> The lesson I learned is don’t buy a used EV


All transition problems. Some day EVs will be easy to deal with and you’ll have to ask your grampa how to change the oil in your gas car. 

mm


----------



## Sbob

Harvey said:


> Our Prius batteries are now 10 years old. Do you start to see a drop off, of does the whole thing just $hit the bed one day?
> 
> A few years ago I asked my guy Al how much to replace all the Prius batteries. He told me it fluctuated A LOT, could be $1000 or could be more than $3000. So I could see how that price for a full EV could be pretty high.


Old information but still relevant 





A Bit About Batteries


By now most people know that the Tesla Roadster is powered by Lithium ion (Li-ion) batteries. But here are a few things about our batteries you might not have heard. Our battery system – or Energy Storage System, as we like to call it – is comprised of 6,831 individual Li-ion cells. It's roughly...




www.tesla.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Our Prius batteries are now 10 years old. Do you start to see a drop off, of does the whole thing just $hit the bed one day?


I truly don't know this for certain but I would guess they just go all at once. 
One of my issues with EV's is they're currently being made to be disposable. Once the batteries go they have to be replaced. Where as mechanical, if parts are available, can be repaired. 
I believe EVs will get much better given enough time. They're so many hurdles to get over, it's going to take time. Unfortunately some are putting timelines on it which will do nothing other than screw things all up.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Long story but this just happened,
> 
> So, my wife just drove down to Washington for a four day business trip. On the second morning she feels sick, tests positive for Covid and decides to come home. She picked up our Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and the valet had apparently smashed the passenger side rear view mirror in some sort of accident. It’s now taped on. She gets on the road and somewhere in Maryland stopped for gas and food. She decided to use the supercharger to charge the battery too. Well, the car wouldn’t go in drive after that. There was some sort of EV code on the dash and she was stuck. She called the dealership where we bought the car and when they didn’t answer, she left a message. I’m up in the Catskills goofing off with barely any reception so I’m useless. She gets in touch with the local dealer down there and they say they have to tow the car because they can’t clear the code wirelessly. She waited so long for the tow that the dealership closed and couldn’t do it until the next day. She had to get Lyft to a hotel and spend the night which luckily her company paid for. The next day the cars all set and they did an oil change too since that was also needed. $200 later, she starts driving down the highway and calls me saying she’s dragging something but doesn’t think it’s serious. She gets home and I look under the car and the dust cover skid plate thingy 🍻 is hanging down with just a zip tie and a screw holding it. All of the push clips are gone and the holes in the plate are broken from when they ripped it off. Luckily, we have a guest cottage that she has been using to recover and she’s feeling much better. But jeez, what a shitshow.


Geezus 
Shit show for sure 💯


----------



## Ripitz

This was the first time we used a fast charger and it doesn’t instill a lot of confidence. All of our charging so far has been at home with the snail charger. The travel station, tow operator and dealership all said this happens frequently there. The charging station help center hotline isn’t what they say they are. In lieu of a self help super truck, the costs are; $2.50 for a 64% percent battery charge, Progressive got the tow, $70 for Lyft which is on the company and the hotel, $149, and another Lyft for $15. $130 out of pocket for one hour of labor for the dealer to clear the code, $70 for an oil change on a motor that’s smaller than one on a lawn mower and one day of life. Ripping the cover off is free along with a couple zip ties.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Long story but this just happened,
> ...She decided to use the supercharger to charge the battery too. Well, the car wouldn’t go in drive after that. There was some sort of EV code on the dash and she was stuck. She called the dealership where we bought the car and when they didn’t answer, she left a message. I’m up in the Catskills goofing off with barely any reception so I’m useless. She gets in touch with the local dealer down there and they say they have to tow the car because they can’t clear the code wirelessly. She waited so long for the tow that the dealership closed and couldn’t do it until the next day. ...


Did y’all try the alt-control-delete/// turn-it off, turn it- back on thingy🍺.
Heard that works well for some thingys🍺🍺


----------



## Milo Maltbie

You need to find the little hole you poke a paper clip into. 

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Ripping the cover off is free along with a couple zip ties.


That's total BS!! There's no excuse for that.


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> . . .
> She gets on the road and somewhere in Maryland stopped for gas and food. She decided to use the supercharger to charge the battery too. Well, the car wouldn’t go in drive after that. There was some sort of EV code on the dash and she was stuck. . . .


What a mess!

Didn't know the Outlander PHEV could do fast charging. Which charging company?

Learned a bit about the Outlander charging options from this article, but it's from the UK so no really applicable when it comes to using a public charge station.






Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Charging Guide - How to charge a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV


Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV charging guide will help you get the most out of your electric car - discover everything from charging times to public charging.




www.zap-map.com





Since the RAV4 Prime doesn't support fast charging, I don't usually bring the charging cable when I take a long driving trip. Only makes sense if I'm going to be staying at a friend's house for a few days. If I want to charge a bit (after I forget to go into HV mode at some point), I charge while running HV at low speeds. Optimal performance as a hybrid seems to be when there is at least 20 EV miles.


----------



## Harvey

In a fully electric car what wears out, besides the battery? Beyond tires, brakes, wipers etc.

If it cost 20k to replace the battery is it like new? Can newer more efficient batteries be put into older cars?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> In a fully electric car what wears out, besides the battery? Beyond tires, brakes, wipers etc.


Salty roads rusts steel parts so there’s that.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> In a fully electric car what wears out, besides the battery? Beyond tires, brakes, wipers etc.
> 
> If it cost 20k to replace the battery is it like new? Can newer more efficient batteries be put into older cars?


My ski buddy in Ohio had one of the original Prius PHEVs. Can't remember exactly when or what mileage but the traction battery wore out. At least 5 years I think. The replacement battery was somewhere in the $2000 to $5000 range. They opted to trade in that Prius and get another Prius PHEV. Fair to say that battery technology has changed a fair amount in the last decade.

What they went for in 2021 was the RAV4 Prime PHEV, instead of a Prius Prime. Last year the supply was not as constrained as in the first six months the RAV4 Prime was being sold in the USA, or in 2022.

They live in a multi-story condo with a parking garage on the lower levels. There are 240V charging stations available to residents. The condo management had to add a time limit in early 2022 because more residents were buying EVs or PHEVs.

Dec 2021








Why Isn't There a Toyota Prius EV?


Isn't it weird that there isn't a Toyota Prius EV? But the future of the Toyota Prius isn't going electric in America. In fact, it may be canceled.




www.motorbiscuit.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> They live in a multi-story condo with a parking garage on the lower levels. There are 240V charging stations available to residents. The condo management had to add a time limit in early 2022 because more residents were buying EVs or PHEVs.


Is there a cost to residents to charge their vehicles parked there?


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Is there a cost to residents to charge their vehicles parked there?


No charge. It's essentially a household outlet that's in a garage of a private condo building. Each condo gets one parking space. Not that many units. I think there are 4 on each floor, maybe 5 floors.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> If it cost 20k to replace the battery is it like new?


No way. Same goes for ICE as well.
Every connection, switch, contact, knob, button, bolt, screw, etc has wear on it.
Everything is now made to be disposable.

As an example --- this past winter I needed to replace the auger motor on my pellet stove. All that was wrong with the motor was a nylon gear that would've been easily replaceable had the part been available. No dice. Had to replace the motor.


----------



## Sbob

Ford adds battery capacity, LFP chemistry to scale global EV business


Ford said Thursday it has shored up its battery supply chain as part of its global strategy to sell more than 2 million EVs annually by 2026. The automaker, which is investing $50 billion to scale its battery-electric portfolio through 2026, said it plans to boost battery capacity, shorten its...




finance.yahoo.com





Ford using a safer battery technology. One of my biggest beefs with EV’s is battery safety. 
I would not feel safe parking my Lithium ion car in my garage.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Are they selling any at that price?


I watched one sell for $123,500 with just under 900 miles on it.


----------



## MarzNC

Price seems to have come down a bit for people buying a pre-owned R1T at auction. At least compared to a few months ago.

The lowest price for a new one seems to be $79,500 at the moment. Of course, there is a long wait if someone didn't put in a reservation a while back.


----------



## Campgottagopee

This answers some questions








How Much do Electric Car Batteries Cost to Replace? - Electric Car FAQs


Replacement batteries for electric cars are not cheap and could cost a fortune. Let’s take a deep dive into what it really costs to replace batteries.



electriccarfaqs.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Price seems to have come down a bit for people buying a pre-owned R1T at auction. At least compared to a few months ago.
> 
> The lowest price for a new one seems to be $79,500 $97,500 at the moment. Of course, there is a long wait if someone didn't put in a reservation a while back.
> 
> View attachment 15541


FIFY, but that ain’t counting tax and ya gotta bring a trailer...


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

You Can Save Gas By Using a Ford Raptor to Tow-Charge a Tesla


Yes, really.




www.roadandtrack.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Adirondack Johnny said:


> You Can Save Gas By Using a Ford Raptor to Tow-Charge a Tesla
> 
> 
> Yes, really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.roadandtrack.com


That's pretty wild stuff


----------



## Ripitz

Makes me smile every time.


----------



## jasonwx

Saw one in a parking lot yesterday 
Say what u will. The airplane yoke for a wheel is cool


----------



## Campgottagopee

Word 








Unhappy 2022 Tesla Model 3 Owner Gets "Major Buyer's Remorse", Sells It After Two Months


A 2022 Tesla Model 3 Long Range owner decided two months of ownership are enough. They’ve now decided to sell the EV and move on to something else that’s not made by the American car brand. Even though it’s an unpleasant situation, they took the time to warn others off. Here’s what’s going on.




www.autoevolution.com


----------



## Ripitz

Meyers Manx 2.0 Electric Brings Iconic Dune Buggy into Modern Age


Originally produced from 1964 to 1971, the Meyers Manx off-roader has made its return, this time with an electric powertrain.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## Brownski

Rivian Angers Reservation Holders by Cutting Entry-Level Trim


Production hell is real, and it appears Rivian is having to make some difficult calls to get through it.




www.thedrive.com


----------



## Ripitz

California bans sales of new gas-powered cars by 2035. Now the real work begins — Los Angeles Times


Plenty of challenges lie ahead as California mandates zero-emission cars, including cost and access to charging.




apple.news


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> California bans sales of new gas-powered cars by 2035. Now the real work begins — Los Angeles Times
> 
> 
> Plenty of challenges lie ahead as California mandates zero-emission cars, including cost and access to charging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Why not just buy a used ICE auto if ya wanna filler up in Cali?
or buy a new one somewhere else and “smuggle" it across the boarder?
🤔


----------



## Campgottagopee

I saw that too
I didn't need another reason to not move out there, but it's nice to have a list.


----------



## MarzNC

Anyone seen an EV school bus?

August 2022








Vehicle-To-Grid Trials Taking Place In Massachusetts & New York


Vehicle to grid trial programs are happening in more places like Massachusetts, Brooklyn, and Florida as utilities get on board.




cleantechnica.com


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Anyone seen an EV school bus?


I haven't seen one. But school busses seem like they could a good choice for EVs. Routes aren't that long (?) so range maybe not an issue as much, and one charging station could charge a bunch of vehicles. And when they stop they aren't running.

Still want to see WTF we do with the batteries. Mining and disposal/recycling. Anyone seeing any innovation on that?


----------



## trackbiker

What happened to DomB who was keeping us up to date with his Rivian order and associated electric vehicle updates and information?


----------



## Harvey

trackbiker said:


> What happened to DomB who was keeping us up to date with his Rivian order and associated electric vehicle updates and information?


Maybe he's a winter only forum guy.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> Maybe he's a winter only forum guy.


Hey guys! Yes, sorry I disappeared. I am definitely more of a winter guy (though I love the forum and really enjoyed the posts I have seen this summer, including Rip's touching one about his summer solstice hike. 

The long and short is that they have prioritized pushing out the trucks over the SUVs. There are signs that the SUV is now getting prioritized for the first time since deliveries started to non-affiliates. They are having this issue because they only have one line for R1 truck or SUVs, so for now, they have to batch between the Trucks and the SUV. The SUV got delayed a few months so they could stick to trucks and deliver more. They apparently made that choice due to the complexity in ramping up production volume. No one know the exact number in real time (they disclose quarterly afterward), but they are getting close to 10,000 R1's produced. Their year-end goal is 25,000 total vehicles, including Amazon vans (cut from 50,000 but reaffirmed). 

Here is where we are: 
- we are starting to see 'real' non affiliate deliveries of the SUV. It looks like at least one confirmed delivery this past Friday. 
- some non-affiliates with media ties are getting them. There are a handful of early pre-order holders (Dec 2018) that stared a forum, who both just got delivery of their vehicles. 
- while I was about 50-50 that I would not get the SUV order in this year a week ago, I think the odds are like 75% chance. The first two SUV delivery windows are Aug-Sept and Oct-Dec. I am in the Oct-Dec bucket. Someone who ordered a month ahead of me with a similar build (but with a 2k underbody shield) is getting invited to finalize the process, which takes a few days to weeks before a delivery. 
- but this is hard to predict. While they are considering order date, they are prioritizing batches for builds. I have a common exterior color (Launch Green) but did not get the underbody shield, as hard core offroading will be a very limited use case. Mostly offroad will be soft sand. 

They have done some things they say are to stream line production like modifying an interior color (white - you hav to take a black dash, which I am fine with) and removing the base trim. 

I am not sure, but I think if you put in a reservation now, you are NOT locking into a price. This kind of makes sense because the price of so many materials have gone up.


----------



## DomB

I personally hope it comes through soon, as my daily driver is an 11 year old CRV that gets beat up, has about 136,000 miles, and has had a transmission fault indicator come on almost every time it has been driven the past few weeks. I guess if it dies before the Rivian is ready (unlikely), we could just go to one car for a while. 

Our back up is an 8 year old impreza with 20,000 miles on it. We bought it when we moved to burbs to be driven to the train station, but since then we moved to another town and I walk to the train, so it mostly gets used on weekends if there is some conflict with kid events or one of us wants to go somewhere else.


----------



## Sbob

I saw Rivian Suv today unfortunately going in the opposite direction but noticed that the headlights were on. Is this an automatic function? I would think even though they’re LED’s that would reduce the range a bit?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> I haven't seen one. But school busses seem like they could a good choice for EVs. Routes aren't that long (?) so range maybe not an issue as much, and one charging station could charge a bunch of vehicles. And when they stop they aren't running.
> 
> Still want to see WTF we do with the batteries. Mining and disposal/recycling. Anyone seeing any innovation on that?


There’s gonna be a big push for EV school busses. I’ve already seen articles claiming diesel exhaust from school buses takes 5 points off kids’ IQ. BUses are the best use of batteries. 

Spent vehicle batteries aren’t dead, it’s just that the power to weight ratio has deteriorated. Those are perfect for grid connected stationary batteries. You still need to recycle them, but the life cycle is much longer. More batteries allows more renewable energy. 

Any technology that supports a modern economy for 7 billion people is gonna have some environmental consequences. 


mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> I’ve already seen articles claiming diesel exhaust from school buses takes 5 points off kids’ IQ.


LMFAO!


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> Spent vehicle batteries aren’t dead, it’s just that the power to weight ratio has deteriorated. Those are perfect for grid connected stationary batteries. You still need to recycle them, but the life cycle is much longer. More batteries allows more renewable energy.



I knew that car batteries still had a useful life at the end of the run, and reusing them for something else is recycling. This doesn't change the fact eventually, at the end of the line, you got do something.


----------



## jasonwx

Fun fact
Most of the recycled lead from used car batteries goes into the manufacturing of bullets


----------



## Harvey

With all these EVs coming Camp is going to have to up his game.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> I knew that car batteries still had a useful life at the end of the run, and reusing them for something else is recycling. This doesn't change the fact eventually, at the end of the line, you got do something.


That's true, but the point is the disposal problem is maybe a quarter of what you might have thought it was, and way further down the line before the volume gets large. Don't be like my grandfather who told me that electric starters would never workbe a disaster because of all the lead and acid that would need to be dumped.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Milo Maltbie said:
I’ve already seen articles claiming diesel exhaust from school buses takes 5 points off kids’ IQ.



Campgottagopee said:


> LMFAO!


I know. For a long time I was the guy in the company pushing for green solutions. That included converting oil boilers to natural gas because of SO2, NOx and the carbon emissions. Then one morning I went to work and suddenly I was the bad guy because the media was pushing the idea that natural gas is worse than coal for some reason. It's not even natural anymore. It's "fracked" or "fossil" gas. Go figure.
Still, EV buses are gonna be a good thing for everyone.

mm


----------



## Brownski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Don't be like my grandfather who told me that electric starters would never workbe a disaster because of all the lead and acid that would need to be dumped.


Point taken but we may all end up being like the guy that decided to spray asbestos all over everything cause it would prevent fires. Lithium is no joke. There are legit concerns about it


----------



## Ripitz

They told us plastic is recycleable too. What a crock of shit. Sure it can be recycled but it’s too costly and takes a bunch of energy and in the end, doesn’t get done. Now traces are found everywhere, on top of Everest, Antarctica, all over our oceans and in our bodies. Sure people care, but not enough to stop using it. It’s too much a part of our lives.


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> That's true, but the point is the disposal problem is maybe a quarter of what you might have thought it was, and way further down the line before the volume gets large. Don't be like my grandfather who told me that electric starters would never workbe a disaster because of all the lead and acid that would need to be dumped.
> 
> mm


I agree, we should go back to cranking cars. 👴


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> With all these EVs coming Camp is going to have to up his game.


Went to the Subaru dealer to get the free NYS inspection done and an oil change yesterday.
Holy moly, only a couple new cars for sale in the lot (none inside the showroom) and not many used ones available either.
Better ❤️ the one yer with.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> With all these EVs coming Camp is going to have to up his game.


LoL
It's all just metal


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Went to the Subaru dealer to get the free NYS inspection done and an oil change yesterday.
> Holy moly, only a couple new cars for sale in the lot (none inside the showroom) and not many used ones available either.
> Better ❤️ the one yer with.


This isn't changing anytime soon. In fact we may never see in stock inventory levels like we did pre-pandemic.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Point taken but we may all end up being like the guy that decided to spray asbestos all over everything cause it would prevent fires. Lithium is no joke. There are legit concerns about it


Yep 
This whole green energy thing is nothing more that feel good bs, and very expensive. To be "green" you have to be wealthy? Total crap.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> I agree, we should go back to cranking cars. 👴


I want to go back to cranking the windows and volume knob at least.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> Point taken but we may all end up being like the guy that decided to spray asbestos all over everything cause it would prevent fires. Lithium is no joke. There are legit concerns about it


No technology is risk free when it's scaled up to the global level. Fossil fuels may be an existential threat to civilization. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> No technology is risk free when it's scaled up to the global level. Fossil fuels may be an existential threat to civilization. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
> 
> mm


Or affordable
The people making the decisions are blind to affordable. NYS is a prime example. We could have cheap, clean, efficient, affordable heat, but no. One issue is the people making the decisions don't have to pay for their own shit.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> This isn't changing anytime soon. In fact we may never see in stock inventory levels like we did pre-pandemic.



Is there some way online (without actually calling a dealer) to see how much over MSRP cars are selling for?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Or affordable
> The people making the decisions are blind to affordable. NYS is a prime example. We could have cheap, clean, efficient, affordable heat, but no. One issue is the people making the decisions don't have to pay for their own shit.


What does affordable mean if there's 10 feet of sea level rise already baked in to the future?

mm


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> This isn't changing anytime soon. In fact we may never see in stock inventory levels like we did pre-pandemic.


Yup.
Ain’t many around.
Maybe we can dig up some of those old clunkers folks got paid to smash in ’09.








						Domestic Auto Inventories
					

Graph and download economic data for Domestic Auto Inventories (AUINSA) from Jan 1993 to Nov 2022 about inventories, domestic, vehicles, new, and USA.



					fred.stlouisfed.org


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> Maybe we can dig up some of those old clunkers folks got paid to smash in ’08.


Apparently we believe we can make ourselves rich by destroying usable private assets but we can't afford public spending for sustainable inftastructure. The modern economy is a mysterious thing.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Is there some way online (without actually calling a dealer) to see how much over MSRP cars are selling for?


Yes
The manufactures website will give you MSRP of the car you're looking for. You need to really look at the fine print to be sure you're comparing apples to apples. Meaning, be sure the packaging on the car you've built matches the car you're looking at.
I'd also go to the dealers website as the MSRP has to be disclosed on their site.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Maybe we can dig up some of those old clunkers folks got paid to smash in ’09.


That program was a cluster is massive proportions


----------



## Brownski

Hey Milo, what are you driving nowadays?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

A 2015 Mazda3 and a 20 year old Miata. I'm not an early adopter.

mm


----------



## Brownski

Milo Maltbie said:


> A 2015 Mazda3 and a 20 year old Miata. I'm not an early adopter.
> 
> mm


EVs have been around a l while now. You wouldn’t be an early adopter at this point. What kind of MPG does a Miata get?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> EVs have been around a l while now


Nissan leaf went on sale in 2010


----------



## Milo Maltbie

I have no way to charge an EV at my condo for now, but otherwise the next car might be an EV. It's gonna be a bitter pill to give up 3 pedals. I didn't even like it when they got rid of those little vent windows in the front door.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> I didn't even like it when they got rid of those little vent windows in the front door.


Right?? 
It's the little things in life


----------



## Brownski

Milo Maltbie said:


> I have no way to charge an EV at my condo for now, but otherwise the next car might be an EV.
> 
> mm


They won’t let you pay to install a charger? I bet there’s a tax benefit for you- some kind of rebate or something


Campgottagopee said:


> Nissan leaf went on sale in 2010


Right. And Toyota and Honda had hybrids available before then. There has been a “greener” choice for awhile


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> They won’t let you pay to install a charger? I bet there’s a tax benefit for you- some kind of rebate or something


There's nowhere to put a charger attached to my electric service, and no programs to help with that. Chargers for apartment dwellers is gonna be one of the obstacles to universal adoption of EVs. I'm happy to wait for someone else to solve the problem.

mm


----------



## Brownski

I actually brought that up regarding the city awhile ago. You at least have a parking lot I assume. How many cars get parked on the street every night? It’s a big number. But no more ICE after 2035? Even though that’s still a ways out, there are so many big problems to be solved first. I don’t see anybody really trying to solve it.


----------



## Tjf1967

Milo Maltbie said:


> There's nowhere to put a charger attached to my electric service, and no programs to help with that. Chargers for apartment dwellers is gonna be one of the obstacles to universal adoption of EVs. I'm happy to wait for someone else to solve the problem.
> 
> mm


It's not that hard. Run outside plug ins. If people came home from work and plugged there car in they could put in a couple miles per hour. Certainly enough to get people back and forth to work. You don't need the higher chargers. Cars will need to be treated like phones.


----------



## Ripitz

Aptera reopens investments to bring its 1,000-mile-range solar electric vehicle to production — Electrek


Aptera has reopened investments to the public as it tries to secure more money to bring its 1,000-mile-range solar electric vehicle to production.




apple.news


----------



## Sbob

Ripitz said:


> Aptera reopens investments to bring its 1,000-mile-range solar electric vehicle to production — Electrek
> 
> 
> Aptera has reopened investments to the public as it tries to secure more money to bring its 1,000-mile-range solar electric vehicle to production.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Never understood why electric vehicles aren't covered with panels.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Aptera reopens investments to bring its 1,000-mile-range solar electric vehicle to production — Electrek
> 
> 
> Aptera has reopened investments to the public as it tries to secure more money to bring its 1,000-mile-range solar electric vehicle to production.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Would love to the see the IIHS crash test ratings on this


----------



## jasonwx

Sbob said:


> Never understood why electric vehicles aren't covered with panels.


It’s being done and produced. Though extremely expensive. 





Long Range Solar Electric Vehicle — Lightyear 0 | Lightyear


Discover Lightyear 0. Charge less and drive 725 km with energy-efficient technology (only 83 wh/km). Find interior and exterior photos and learn about the specifications and details of Lightyear 0.



lightyear.one


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Would love to the see the IIHS crash test ratings on this


I don’t think there will be any.

_“It’s a three-wheel enclosed vehicle, and therefore, it is classified as an ”auto-cycle” in most markets.
It means that it is not subject to all the same strict safety requirements of a car or truck”_

As stated in the article, this increases the chances of it going into production.

I think it’s cool. For $25,000 I’d get one. They even have a camper version.








Sell Your Van...This Futuristic Solar Powered Vehicle Doubles As Camper


Aptera is a solar-powered electric vehicle company out of Southern California. Aptera is definitely thinking outside the box and focuses on total efficiency. A full charge on this lightweight, thre…




unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Brownski

It would help the EV movement a lot if they just ditched safety standards entirely. While they’re at it they can reimpose a national 55 speed limit and require governors on new vehicles.


----------



## x10003q

I don't think I want to drive around on American roads in 1800 pounds of fiberglass and battery with no mandated crash capabilities. I would rather drive a Chevy Bolt for similar vehicle cost, have the full compliment of safety/crash requirements and spend a few hundred dollars more for electricity/year.


----------



## Brownski

I don’t blame you. Conversely we could calm down, repeal the 2035 mandates and just continue to improve our ICE vehicles (which are already way better than they used to be) until we have a better handle on things.


----------



## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> I don’t blame you. Conversely we could calm down, repeal the 2035 mandates and just continue to improve our ICE vehicles (which are already way better than they used to be) until we have a better handle on things.


From what I have read and watched. We have reached the max technology with ICE.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> I don't think I want to drive around on American roads in 1800 pounds of fiberglass and battery with no mandated crash capabilities.



I don't think you ever will.

I don't understand why hybrids are being abandoned. Seems like a good transition. Far less battery to dispose of, and no range anxiety.


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> I don't think I want to drive around on American roads in 1800 pounds of fiberglass and battery with no mandated crash capabilities. I would rather drive a Chevy Bolt for similar vehicle cost, have the full compliment of safety/crash requirements and spend a few hundred dollars more for electricity/year.


Would be more fun than a golf cart in the big retirement communities that allow golf carts.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I don't understand why hybrids are being abandoned. Seems like a good transition. Far less battery to dispose of, and no range anxiety.


Who says hybrids are being abandoned?

My friend who bought a Honda hybrid SUV a couple years ago got a call from the dealer recently. The question asked was whether or not he was interested in selling his current hybrid . . . for the price he paid originally. He was interested when I was researching the RAV4 Prime PHEV in early 2020 but wasn't quite ready to commit.

For me, a PHEV is the best of both approaches. Essentially an EV when I'm at home and a hybrid when traveling. I often drive over 400 miles in a day and can do 600-700 miles solo without trying hard.

FYI, my husband bought a second RAV4 Prime from the same central NY dealership. I picked it up on the way home from Lake Placid with my daughter. The new one is a white XSE with black trim. The blue SE we bought in late 2020 has become my daughter's car. We got one of the last Primes as an out-of-state buyer. Toyota won't let dealerships sell out of state any more. Too many people bought a Prime and then immediately re-sold it in the new state for a premium price.


----------



## x10003q

MarzNC said:


> Would be more fun than a golf cart in the big retirement communities that allow golf carts.


True, but 2 seat golf carts can be found as low as $2.5k - no where near $30K. It also looks like it will be difficult for those in the retired age group to get in and out of the Aptera. Plus, the Aptera is 177 inches long vs 92 inches for a 2 seat golf cart. 
I think there is a market for the Aptera - but there are lots of issues.


----------



## MarzNC

x10003q said:


> True, but 2 seat golf carts can be found as low as $2.5k - no where near $30K. It also looks like it will be difficult for those in the retired age group to get in and out of the Aptera. Plus, the Aptera is 177 inches long vs 92 inches for a 2 seat golf cart.
> I think there is a market for the Aptera - but there are lots of issues.


I live in the southeast. There are a lot of relatively new Over 50 communities with very active retirees who have the money. I see what kind of SUVs they are driving when I go to the supermarket. One of the larger 50+ communities that's been around for over a decade is about a mile from my house. I could see someone living there having an Aptera for errands as a second vehicle. Can't take a golf cart outside of the development.

Hard to get into? That's like saying someone who is over 60 won't be skiing off-piste anymore. 

In any case, Aptera is clearly going after a much younger demographic. The video on their website has young adult blond women with surfboards, presumably in California since that's where the company is based.


----------



## Harvey

Maybe abandoned is too strong. Still, there's no $7000 credit for buying one.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Maybe abandoned is too strong. Still, there's no $7000 credit for buying one.


Actually the Federal tax credit is $7500. That's a big reason that my husband opted to buy another RAV4 Prime PHEV instead of getting my daughter a hybrid SUV now that she's a college graduate. Back in June, he was worried we wouldn't get one in time to get the full tax credit. As it turned out, I picked it up in August plus Toyota doesn't have to worry about the cap any more. I'm driving the new RAV4 Prime XSE and she is using the almost 2-year old RAV4 Prime SE with almost 40,000 miles. She was lobbying for a Subaru Crosstrek for a couple years.

I took your statement as implying car manufacturers were going to phase out hybrids in favor of EVs sooner rather than later. Not sure that's the case yet. The EV charging infrastructure has a ways to go for people who don't want to buy a Tesla.


----------



## Harvey

Cars get phase out when demand for them drops.

The tax credit also applies to plug-in hybrids? I didn't know that.

How does the price paid vs MRSP stack up for:

ICE
Hybrid
Pluggin Hybrid
EV 

Right now? Anyone? Camp?

While the California thing may seem kooky, no significant forward progress happens without disruption, IMO. They will get that right before 2035.

For now my only real choice financially seem to be continuing to drive and fix our old cars, CRV (5 years old, just hit 100k) and the Prius (11 years old, 129k).

When we move to the mtns wife is probably going to want AWD, and if I had to do that now I'd choose a RAV Prime. Maybe other choices by then. 

For me, you kind of need a pickup to live in North River, with no garbage pickup you have to make trips to the dump. Also super convenient for moving MTBs and other stuff. But I'll also likely be driving distances to ski, so I don't see an EV as my truck. Maybe Toyota will have a pluggin hybrid Tacoma. Quick Google, I didn't see one now.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Electric Cars and Plug-In Hybrids That Qualify for Tax Credits Under the Inflation Reduction Act


Consumer Reports details the list of 2022 and 2023 model-year electric cars and plug-in hybrids that are eligible under new credit structure, according to the IRS.



www.consumerreports.org





The Fine Print​All the vehicles on both of these lists will still be subject to new caps on how much vehicles can cost: For SUVs, pickup trucks, and vans, the threshold is $80,000. For sedans, hatchbacks, wagons, and other vehicles, the credit cuts off at $55,000. 
In other words, the Tesla Model S and Model X and the GMC Hummer probably won’t qualify, even though they’re on the Department of Energy’s initial list.
We don’t yet know how the IRS will classify certain vehicles. For example, because their prices are above $55,000, the Cadillac Lyriq and Tesla Model Y would qualify only if they are classified as SUVs and not station wagons. In addition, some vehicles may qualify only if buyers don’t choose options that bring the price over $80,000.
All these vehicles will also still have to meet both of those aforementioned battery manufacturing targets to qualify for the full tax credit, and we don’t yet know which ones will.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I don’t blame you. Conversely we could calm down, repeal the 2035 mandates and just continue to improve our ICE vehicles (which are already way better than they used to be) until we have a better handle on things.


Agree
This move to EV's should NOT have a live drawn in the sand. It's too important for people who haven't a clue about the industry (politicians) to be making the rules. The cart is in front of the horse. Until our infrastructure is ready they need to stay out as they'll just screw it up.


----------



## Campgottagopee

One concern for all of us should be repairs. Right now techs hate to work on EV's and Hybrids. You should see the gear they have to wear to do it. One master tech I know refuses to work on them stating he doesn't get paid enough to risk the injuries that could happen. Labor rates will continue to go up and finding people willing to work on these things will be challenging, to say the least.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> One concern for all of us should be repairs. Right now techs hate to work on EV's and Hybrids. You should see the gear they have to wear to do it. One master tech I know refuses to work on them stating he doesn't get paid enough to risk the injuries that could happen. Labor rates will continue to go up and finding people willing to work on these things will be challenging, to say the least.


i hear those orange cables can ruin your day


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> i hear those orange cables can ruin your day


That's fer sure
These guys aren't lineman nor are they trained to be lineman.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> This move to EV's should NOT have a live drawn in the sand. It's too important for people who haven't a clue about the industry (politicians) to be making the rules. The cart is in front of the horse. Until our infrastructure is ready they need to stay out as they'll just screw it up.


Without deadlines nothing happens. The whole EV conversion will never happen if the government policies do not support it because it is driven by a political consensus about climate change, not by market forces. “The market” has never produced environmental improvements without government mandates. The market hasn’t built much infrastructure without government support either. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> One concern for all of us should be repairs.


That’s a predictable transition problem and it’s only an issue for early adapters. 
Someday your grandchildren will wonder why we stuck with RICE so long and how we ever tolerated so much dangerous gasoline around our homes. 

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Without deadlines nothing happens. The whole EV conversion will never happen if the government policies do not support it because it is driven by a political consensus about climate change, not by market forces. “The market” has never produced environmental improvements without government mandates. The market hasn’t built much infrastructure without government support either.
> 
> mm


Understand, and valid.
I'm still not convinced that a EV conversion will happen, and if it does that it will be better for the environment. I don't trust politics.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> That’s a predictable transition problem and it’s only an issue for early adapters.
> Someday your grandchildren will wonder why we stuck with RICE so long and how we ever tolerated so much dangerous gasoline around our homes.
> 
> mm


If I ever have grandchildren gasoline will be the least of my problems


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> I don’t blame you. Conversely we could calm down, repeal the 2035 mandates and just continue to improve our ICE vehicles (which are already way better than they used to be) until we have a better handle on things.


Or ban cars altogether until we have a better handle on things.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Or ban cars altogether until we have a better handle on things.


We need other countries to get up to speed.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Is there such a thing as a world wide standard as far as pollutants?


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> If I ever have grandchildren gasoline will be the least of my problems


Hey, could you do me a favor and phrase that as “I don’t have any grandchildren…. “ so I can throw in “that you know of.” It’s a little thing but it would make me happy.


----------



## Campgottagopee

i have 6 of these on my deck. They're at least 5 yrs old, still work perfectly, and I've never touched them.
We need EVs like this so any mortal can buy one. That's when I'll be 💯 on board and a believer.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> We need other countries to get up to speed.


Don't expect India and China to accept that they should reduce emissions (and their standard of living) below what we do in the US. Yurp is already ahead of us. the US is the only advanced country that has been in denial about global warning, which is ironic because NASA has known about it for 40 years.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> I don't trust politics.


You need to keep politices out of your personal life, but like it or not, the government is involved in every aspect of the economy. Contract law, insurance rules, intellectual property, housing and zoning, environmental protection, safe water and food supply, safe medicine, labor rules, education, weather forecasting and everything else. If you believe that private sector or "the market" can do those things better, privide actual examples of where that has happened. Otherwise, you're just following your ideology instead of looking at actual facts. Running government by ideology is the equivalent of doing astronomy by religious beliefs. It works for a while but eventually you will be proven wrong.
If you don't trust politics, that's all the more reason to pay attention and get involved.

mm


----------



## tirolski

If y'all don’t like politics y’all can bring back benevolent despots.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> 2035 mandates



I heard about California. Are there others?


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> I heard about California. Are there others?


Not positive- at least Washington, Mass and New York I believe. I’m sure NJ isn’t far behind. They always copy NY.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Not positive- at least Washington, Mass and New York I believe. I’m sure NJ isn’t far behind. They always copy NY.


Went hunting for relevant articles. The Smithsonian article mentions Virginia, Rhode Island, Oregon, and Maryland in addition to the other states already mentioned in this thread.

October 2020








New Jersey could ban sale of gasoline-powered vehicles | Car News | Auto123


New Jersey is considering following California's lead and banning the sale of gasoline-powered vehicles starting in 2035. Auto123 has the details.




www.auto123.com





December 2020








Massachusetts to Ban Sale of New Gas-Powered Cars by 2035


The measure follows California’s plan to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions in an effort to combat climate change.




www.caranddriver.com





September 2021








New York law phases out most gas-powered vehicles by 2035


The new law could be a shot in the arm for automakers selling or planning electric vehicles




www.cnbc.com





July 2022





Office of the Governor | Governor Murphy Launches Year Three of Charge Up New Jersey Electric Vehicle Incentive Program and Unveils New Residential EV Charger Program


Announces Second Round Grantees and Launches Application Window for Clean Fleet, EV Tourism, and Multi-Unit Dwelling Charger Programs



www.nj.gov





August 26, 2022








Washington state to ban sales of new gas cars by 2035, following California


Public will have chance to weigh in on details of plan, with transportation accounting for 40% of state greenhouse gas emissions




www.theguardian.com





September 1, 2022








Other States May Follow California’s Lead in Banning Gas-Powered Cars by 2035


Washington, Massachusetts, Virginia and others appear likely to adopt the Golden State's ambitious plan for phasing out internal combustion engines




www.smithsonianmag.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> You need to keep politices out of your personal life, but like it or not, the government is involved in every aspect of the economy. Contract law, insurance rules, intellectual property, housing and zoning, environmental protection, safe water and food supply, safe medicine, labor rules, education, weather forecasting and everything else. If you believe that private sector or "the market" can do those things better, privide actual examples of where that has happened. Otherwise, you're just following your ideology instead of looking at actual facts. Running government by ideology is the equivalent of doing astronomy by religious beliefs. It works for a while but eventually you will be proven wrong.
> If you don't trust politics, that's all the more reason to pay attention and get involved.
> 
> mm


No thanks


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Went hunting for relevant articles. The Smithsonian article mentions Virginia, Rhode Island, Oregon, and Maryland in addition to the other states already mentioned in this thread.


It’s The Daily Mail and yer mileage may vary but it’s from the 2nd.








The 17 states that follow California's emission standards


Seventeen states with vehicle emission standards have to decide on whether or not to follow California and ban gas powered cars.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Ripitz

Maybe the first ever EV powered snip.








How A Doctor Used The Rivian R1T's Battery To Perform A Vasectomy — Screen Rant


A doctor in Austin, Texas, recently performed a vasectomy using the battery of a Rivian R1T pickup truck during a sudden power outage.




apple.news


----------



## jasonwx

Rivian SUV
Yesterday on the west side hwy


----------



## Ripitz

Spotted on the Thruway.


----------



## Campgottagopee

California can't even run their AC units, but somehow going full EV is still a good idea.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> California can't even run their AC units, but somehow going full EV is still a good idea.


EVs are still a good idea.
The recommendation to cut back AC and EV charging was only for 4pm to 9pm on weekdays. That's only inconvenient for most people and manageable for almost everyone, and it looks like CAISO will avoid rolling blackouts, which would have been way worse. EVs can actually mitigate the hardship by using the battery to carry your house through the peak period.
There are a lot of problems related to universal EV use, but electric system capacity is not one of them.

mm


----------



## Tjf1967

Milo Maltbie said:


> EVs are still a good idea.
> The recommendation to cut back AC and EV charging was only for 4pm to 9pm on weekdays. That's only inconvenient for most people and manageable for almost everyone, and it looks like CAISO will avoid rolling blackouts, which would have been way worse. EVs can actually mitigate the hardship by using the battery to carry your house through the peak period.
> There are a lot of problems related to universal EV use, but electric system capacity is not one of them.
> 
> mm


I was just reading the amount of cable necessary to connect all these new energy producing systems. Possible investment opportunities


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> EVs are still a good idea.


It's certainly a good idea but for me, or at least right now, it feels like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Possible investment opportunities


Come up with cyber security for the all computerized EVs as well. What until some kid from Idaho decides to start your Model 3 and let er rip.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> It's certainly a good idea but for me, or at least right now, it feels like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.


I’m not ready for an EV either but I’m getting there. I’m still not used to the automatic transmission in our Accord so an EV is gonna take a while. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Come up with cyber security for the all computerized EVs as well. What until some kid from Idaho decides to start your Model 3 and let er rip.


That’s the least of cyber problems. What if a guy with a laptop crashes the stock market from his basement. That happened. 

mm


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Come up with cyber security for the all computerized EVs as well. What until some kid from Idaho decides to start your Model 3 and let er rip.


I own two cyber security ETF's for that


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> That’s the least of cyber problems. What if a guy with a laptop crashes the stock market from his basement. That happened.
> 
> mm


This is a car/truck thread 😏


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I own two cyber security ETF's for that


Of course you do.
I own a 12 guage.... LoL


----------



## not2brite

Milo Maltbie said:


> EVs are still a good idea.
> The recommendation to cut back AC and EV charging was only for 4pm to 9pm on weekdays. That's only inconvenient for most people and manageable for almost everyone, and it looks like CAISO will avoid rolling blackouts, which would have been way worse. EVs can actually mitigate the hardship by using the battery to carry your house through the peak period.
> There are a lot of problems related to universal EV use, but electric system capacity is not one of them.
> 
> mm


How can capacity not be a problem? They can’t handle what they currently have. Agreed it is on a limited peak usage basis, but what is the current percentage of households with an EV out there, 2-3% maybe? Change that number to 50% and everyday becomes peak usage. What is the possibility of increased capacity for electric generation in that whacked out state? NOTHING is allowed to go through except wind and solar and even those get the massive NIMBY lawsuits.


----------



## DomB

Ripitz said:


> Spotted on the Thruway.
> View attachment 15749


Brown's pic is the 21'inch all season tire, and Rip's is the 20inch All Terrain. Range goes from 314 - 270 in all purpose mode with that change, but conserve mode on the AT gets you back up to 293. Incidentally, judging from the lack of clearance, this looks like the driver is in conserve mode (it drops to the lowest height setting for increased aero, and runs on only two of the four motors).


----------



## Milo Maltbie

not2brite said:


> How can capacity not be a problem? They can’t handle what they currently have. Agreed it is on a limited peak usage basis, but what is the current percentage of households with an EV out there, 2-3% maybe? Change that number to 50% and everyday becomes peak usage. What is the possibility of increased capacity for electric generation in that whacked out state? NOTHING is allowed to go through except wind and solar and even those get the massive NIMBY lawsuits.


The system easily handles the EVs that are running now, with the exception of maybe 20 or 30 hours a year. It can handle 50% EVs as well. But the real program is to eliminate fossil fuels, at least in ground transportation and new construction, and to take all the carbon out of the electric system. That will require new capacity, but EVs are gonna provide revenue for it and grid connected batteries in parked cars will increase the system's capability to use intermittent renewables. And you will still charge your EV off peak, although the new peak may be much higher.
Of course that will be costly, but what is the cost of global warming if 10 feet of sea level rise may already be baked into the climate?

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Soooooooo, we had to spend a few hundred K on lifts, hoists, and other crap just to be ready to change out batteries for EV's. Again, just to be able to change out a battery.

Hold on folks, it's gunna get expensive.


----------



## riverc0il

not2brite said:


> What is the possibility of increased capacity for electric generation in that whacked out state? NOTHING is allowed to go through except wind and solar and even those get the massive NIMBY lawsuits.


California (home of the strictest state environmental laws) is trying keep open a nuclear plant that was supposed to close soon. Environmental extremists are having to reconsider acceptable ways to fix our current issues rather than try to plan a utopia.

I suspect we'll continue to see adjustments globally to beef up electric power production if that means supporting EV infrastructure. Obviously, to your point, increased capacity needs to happen. But a lot of charging is going to be done overnight, when rates are lowest and charging is most convenient.

We are still a LONG ways off in rural areas like where I live. And especially those of us in rural areas that also live in townhouses, condos, apartments, etc. that don't have infrastructure. But, you gotta start somewhere. That is why most auto manufacturers are looking out 10 years and not flipping to 100% EVs yet, they know that the demand isn't there.

It took a while before gas stations were a ubiquitous fixture, even in small towns. Henry Ford and the early auto guys certainly didn't consider a lack of gas stations an issue when the first cars rolled off the line.

Personally, I think the industry needs to "sell" EVs to consumers based on performance rather than decreasing carbon. Full uptake also won't happen until EVs get cheap enough that most auto buyers can afford them. It'll take a lot longer than that for used EV saturation to the point we have majority of drivers in EVs. I think we are talking over 20 years at least...


----------



## Campgottagopee

Unless the supply chain issues get fixed it won't matter what anyone drives. Good luck finding rotors right now.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Unless the supply chain issues get fixed it won't matter what anyone drives. Good luck finding rotors right now.


I just dropped off my Impreza to get the brakes done. Am I getting a bad call later on today?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I just dropped off my Impreza to get the brakes done. Am I getting a bad call later on today?


It's possible. Subie seems to be in better shape than other manufactures so hopefully not.


----------



## Ripitz

Evonik targets EV battery recycling, food tech in innovation drive — Reuters


Germany's Evonik Industries is working on ways to help recycle lithium from electric car batteries and limit the need for crop fertilisers as part of an innovation drive already tipped to add 1 billion euros ($998 million) to sales in the 10 years to 2025.




apple.news


----------



## jasonwx

This from my buddy,
His kid is a mechanical eng for toyota..

_is flying to Denver on Sunday and spending the week with a bunch of co-workers driving Japanese Execs around in EV trucks to benchmark Toyota criteria - through mountains, pseudo camping (no sleeping outside), spending a day in Moab off road and then flying back from Vegas next Saturday. Sounds like a boondoggle for the execs…_


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> It's possible. Subie seems to be in better shape than other manufactures so hopefully not.


With previous vehicles he was pretty adept at cutting the rotors when I got it to him on time. I know that is frowned on by a lot of guys nowadays but he’s pretty good at it. First set of brakes on the Impreza though so I don’t know if he’ll be able to this time


----------



## jasonwx

just put first set of brakes on CX5..50k miles so not bad..at a independent shop it cost 900$ insane


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> With previous vehicles he was pretty adept at cutting the rotors when I got it to him on time. I know that is frowned on by a lot of guys nowadays but he’s pretty good at it. First set of brakes on the Impreza though so I don’t know if he’ll be able to this time


As long as there in spec it will be fine. Issue being that if you have a hard stop (panic stop) most likely the rotors will warp resulting in a brake pulsation. The thinner the rotor the quicker they heat up creating hot spots that will warp them.
Even new rotors are basically junk these days, the recycled steel they use to make them is far from grade A.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> just put first set of brakes on CX5..50k miles so not bad..at a independent shop it cost 900$ insane


Just crazy
I approve/disapprove work on cars all day long. The prices are thru the roof! Insane for sure!


----------



## Ripitz

Easier than a plug: Wireless EV charging gets ready for prime time — Ars Technica


Now that there's an industry standard, automakers are starting to deploy the tech.




apple.news


----------



## Brownski

Brakes + oil change+ 1 tire plug = $525. Not bad for downstate in my opinion


----------



## Campgottagopee

Man says Tesla "locked him out" of car until he pays for $26K battery


"Now Tesla is trying desperately to hide the fact that they have these issues with the batteries that need to be recalled," Mario Zelaya said.




www.newsweek.com


----------



## tirolski

Folks used to worry about getting water in the gas tank and gas line freeze ups.








						Electric Vehicle Chargers Have a Maintenance Problem
					

President Biden’s infrastructure bill provides nearly $5 billion over 5 years under the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Formula Program for…




					www.instituteforenergyresearch.org


----------



## Ripitz

The times they are a-changin’.








						Ford Just Made a Stunning Announcement. Here's What It Means for Customers — Inc.
					

You'll have three types of dealerships to choose from, depending what kind of car you want to buy.




					apple.news


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> The times they are a-changin’.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ford Just Made a Stunning Announcement. Here's What It Means for Customers — Inc.
> 
> 
> You'll have three types of dealerships to choose from, depending what kind of car you want to buy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


I couldn't open this article but I just read this one. Similar?
For sure times in the auto industry are changing. I've been in this super competitive, crazy ass biz for years, and I've never seen anything remotely like this.









						Ford gives dealers 2 months to accept new rules or stop selling EVs
					

From 2024, Ford EVs will only be sold at Model e-certified dealerships.




					arstechnica.com


----------



## MarzNC

The Toyota dealer in central NY that sold us the two RAV4 Primes (Nov 2020, Aug 2022) can no longer sell PHEVs to out-of-state customers. We were "grandfathered" because we were a recent customer. The policy change date is coming up soon this fall.


----------



## MarzNC

Sandy Munro and his staff ended up using a Ford Lightning during 48-hour power outage at their shop. They had a workshop scheduled for people who flew in from multiple countries.

September 1, 2022


----------



## MarzNC

Got to see a Lightning XLT in person today. There was a small event near where I live for EV vehicles sponsored by a local electric co-op. It was part of National Drive Electric Week 2022. Piedmont Electric ordered early on and have had it for a few months. It's assigned to one employee (the man in the red shirt). He's have a very good time driving it.

The frunk and the cab look very roomy up close. A third-party locking cover was added recently. Most of the stuff needed for the job the truck is used for was in the front.


----------



## MarzNC

The differences between the target markets for the Rivian R1T and the Ford F-150 Lightning were pretty obvious from the start. Not hard to find comparisons these days that are based on more than a quick look at a trade show. Both are in high demand for every model available. That's not likely to change any time soon.

June 30, 2022


----------



## MarzNC

There will be a Lightning at the Delmar Farmers Market in the Albany area on Oct. 1. Looks like there will be a Rivian R1T at the Kingston Farmers Market (6th annual EV event) this Saturday too. Quite a few EV events in NJ.

At some of the National Drive Electric Week events, it's possible to test drive an EV. I think the owner goes along as a passenger. There was a Chevy Bolt, a Nissan Leaf, and more than one Tesla Model 3 available to test drive yesterday at the event I checked out.

Registered EV vehicles for Delmar Farmers Market on Oct. 1


----------



## MarzNC

Ford has come up with a Lightning for police use. The video is essentially an ad by Ford for that limited market.

July 28, 2022








Ford Reveals F-150 Lightning Pro SSV Specially Designed For Police Duty


This police spec F-150 Lightning has some key modifications and equipment for law enforcement use.




insideevs.com


----------



## Ripitz

EVs won't overload the power grid. They could strengthen it. — Business Insider
					

Electric cars won't overwhelm the US grid anytime soon, energy and transportation experts say. EVs don't consume a lot of energy now, and it will be decades before electric cars take over fully. EVs can be charged when it's best for the grid and may even be able to store energy for the future.




					apple.news


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> EVs won't overload the power grid. They could strengthen it. — Business Insider
> 
> 
> Electric cars won't overwhelm the US grid anytime soon, energy and transportation experts say. EVs don't consume a lot of energy now, and it will be decades before electric cars take over fully. EVs can be charged when it's best for the grid and may even be able to store energy for the future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Here's a related article from early September after California roasted this summer and power usage was in issue. By "ice" the article is talking about the cold stuff, not ICE as in gas engines.

September 12, 2022








						EVs Won’t Overload The Power Grid, In Fact EVs (And Ice) Are Its Salvation
					

In spite of claims that a switch to EVs is bad because the grid can't handle it, especially in California, that state had no issues with charging chars during the recent massive heat wave, and cars, and ice, are the salvation of the grid, not a problem for it.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## MarzNC

Ever heard of a Kia EV6? Got to see one in person at an EV Rodeo yesterday. Found one of the rare videos showing an EV on snow by someone who detailed charging info for really cold temps. The guy is Canadian.

April 2022


----------



## Brownski

I have seen my first dead-EV-getting-charged-by-a-gas-generator-on-the-side-of-the-road pic on Instagram. I predict this will be a common genre soon.


----------



## Harvey

it's definitely an established meme already check it out


----------



## Campgottagopee

Toyota Has The Perfect Alternative To The EV and Could Revolutionize The Market | Torque News
					

Toyota thinks the hydrogen combustion engine would be the solution to all pollution problems. And now the Japanese automaker wants to burst the market with this change.




					www.torquenews.com


----------



## tirolski

Folks also put salt on the roads in winter to melt the snow and ice.
What could go wrong?








						Flooded Tesla EVs From Hurricane Ian Exploding All Over Florida
					

A series of Tesla models flooded from Florida's Hurricane Ian are beginning to explode according to multiple sources.




					www.motorbiscuit.com


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> I have seen my first dead-EV-getting-charged-by-a-gas-generator-on-the-side-of-the-road pic on Instagram. I predict this will be a common genre soon.


Back in the day Grampa and I laughed at his pictures of a horse towing a Model T, but that didn’t change anything. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> it's definitely an established meme already check it out
> 
> View attachment 16020


In 1977(?) LILCO brought an EV to city hall in NYC for some energy conservation event. The picture in the Daily News was a couple of LILCO VPs pushing it out of the way when it wouldn’t start. That was the best ever. I wish I had saved it.

mm


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Toyota Has The Perfect Alternative To The EV and Could Revolutionize The Market | Torque News
> 
> 
> Toyota thinks the hydrogen combustion engine would be the solution to all pollution problems. And now the Japanese automaker wants to burst the market with this change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.torquenews.com



I've heard hydrogen mentioned a lot with regard to the future of transportation, but no one has advanced it beyond the drawing board. Does anyone know: what are the challenges?


----------



## trackbiker

Harvey said:


> I've heard hydrogen mentioned a lot with regard to the future of transportation, but no one has advanced it beyond the drawing board. Does anyone know: what are the challenges?


Plug Power, a New York company, is one of the leaders in hydrogen fuel cells and is doing it today.
Plug Power


----------



## trackbiker

trackbiker said:


> Plug Power, a New York company, is one of the leaders in hydrogen fuel cells and is doing it today.
> Plug Power


This was just in the local paper today.
Air Products to invest $500 million in H2 Plant and convert truck fleet to fuel cells


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> I've heard hydrogen mentioned a lot with regard to the future of transportation, but no one has advanced it beyond the drawing board. Does anyone know: what are the challenges?


The problem with hydrogen is that 95% of it is being made with fossil fuels. Plug has been transitioning to being a hydrogen producer for years. Green hydrogen could be the ticket. There is room for batteries and hydrogen. I guess we will know in 20 years which is better.


----------



## Brownski

Tjf1967 said:


> The problem with hydrogen is that 95% of it is being made with fossil fuels.


Couldn’t you say that about EVs too? Most electricity is made by burning something isn’t it?


----------



## Tjf1967

Brownski said:


> Couldn’t you say that about EVs too? Most electricity is made by burning something isn’t it?


Depends what state. 20% of electricity in the US is renewable


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Folks also put salt on the roads in winter to melt the snow and ice.
> What could go wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flooded Tesla EVs From Hurricane Ian Exploding All Over Florida
> 
> 
> A series of Tesla models flooded from Florida's Hurricane Ian are beginning to explode according to multiple sources.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motorbiscuit.com


Besides being stranded along side the road when it's -10 out?


----------



## Harvey

Tjf1967 said:


> Depends what state. 20% of electricity in the US is renewable



This is national. NY not too much different than the national average.









__





Alternative Fuels Data Center: Emissions from Electric Vehicles






afdc.energy.gov





If you care about emissions, looking at those numbers hybrid or pluggin hybrid are the way to go. No range issues, far smaller batteries to mine and recycle, and pretty good emission improvement.

Pluggin hardly seems like worth the extra expense, but for SOME PEOPLE (short commutes, warm climates) there may be a bigger diff.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> If you care about emissions, looking at those numbers hybrid or pluggin hybrid are the way to go. No range issues, far smaller batteries to mine and recycle, and pretty good emission improvement.


I don't think that's right. For one thing, if you charge your battery at night, at least in NY that's almost entirely hydro and nuclear, so there's zero emissions. But the real program is to take the carbon out of the electric system. That requires wind and solar, but the electric system needs a huge amount of energy storage. California is already bumping up against the systems limit for taking solar. (Google "duck curve."). Parked EVs can provide batteries to absorb excess solar and carry you through when clouds bring solar down. Hybrids or hydrogen vehicles would not provide nearly as much battery capacity. Hybrids can reduce emisisons, but full battery EVs and a carbon free electric system is what environmentalists are shooting for.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> I've heard hydrogen mentioned a lot with regard to the future of transportation, but no one has advanced it beyond the drawing board. Does anyone know: what are the challenges?


Hydrogen is not dense enough for easy use, and it can make steel pressure vessels brittle. The pressure vessels you need to store H2 are probably too heavy for aviation. It probably can't be distributed to homes the way natural gas is, and it certainly couldn't be distributed by converting the natural gas system to H2. 
You also need make it from electricity, which means to be emission free you need to build solar, nuclear or hydro. All those are technical problems which may or may not be solved soon.
Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be.
> 
> mm


You bring great info into this conversation. Thanks.
If hydrogen will always be the fuel of the future then why mess around with EV's. Shouldn't we dump our money and research into that?


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> I don't think that's right. For one thing, if you charge your battery at night, at least in NY that's almost entirely hydro and nuclear, so there's zero emissions. But the real program is to take the carbon out of the electric system. That requires wind and solar, but the electric system needs a huge amount of energy storage. California is already bumping up against the systems limit for taking solar. (Google "duck curve."). Parked EVs can provide batteries to absorb excess solar and carry you through when clouds bring solar down. Hybrids or hydrogen vehicles would not provide nearly as much battery capacity. Hybrids can reduce emisisons, but full battery EVs and a carbon free electric system is what environmentalists are shooting for.
> 
> mm


I was thinking, if you want to buy a car right now, or soon, the hybrid is not a bad choice. I want to get in and know I can drive 300 miles if necessary. That's just who I am, right now. Maybe a pluggin hybrid AWD Tacoma Pickup 🤠 

I bet a significant number of couples or families could make it with an EV and a hybrid.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> You bring great info into this conversation. Thanks.
> If hydrogen will always be the fuel of the future then why mess around with EV's. Shouldn't we dump our money and research into that?


That's what I was getting at. There must be a reason that EV adoption is winning at this moment.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> You bring great info into this conversation. Thanks.
> If hydrogen will always be the fuel of the future then why mess around with EV's. Shouldn't we dump our money and research into that?


Sarcasm


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Pluggin hardly seems like worth the extra expense, but for SOME PEOPLE (short commutes, warm climates) there may be a bigger diff.


PHEV has worked well for me as a retiree. Although would be the same if I were doing WFH as my husband did the last few years he worked long before the pandemic. When I'm home for a month straight, I use about half a tank of gas. Not having to bother to go get gas is nice. I wasn't ready to pay attention in the way that is necessary for an EV on long driving trips of over 500 miles one-way from the house.

My husband figured that with the $7500 tax credit, the cost of the RAV4 Prime PHEV in 2020 was comparable to a RAV4 Hybrid. I can count on 400 miles range when only driving in hybrid (HV) mode away from home.

We have installed solar panels on the roof as part of redoing the roof. Not quite online yet. The inspection finally happened today. Once that happens, my EV miles won't be using the electric grid at all.


----------



## MarzNC

In Australia, the push for hydrogen vehicles seems to be for mining and other specialized businesses that are currently running machinery on diesel. Note that in general, Australia is fairly far behind when it comes to BEV infrastructure for assorted reasons. Doesn't help that the population isn't that big, the country is very far from where most cars are made, and they need right-hand drive. Although New Zealand shows that with government support, those factors aren't as important.



https://thehydrogentruck.com/


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Sarcasm


I was serious.
It feels like EV's are being crammed down our throats. I don't appreciate that kind of feeling. 
EV's seem to save money for people who already have money. It seems people lose sight of that.


----------



## Gorehoar

Tjf1967 said:


> The problem with hydrogen is that 95% of it is being made with fossil fuels. Plug has been transitioning to being a hydrogen producer for years. Green hydrogen could be the ticket. There is room for batteries and hydrogen. I guess we will know in 20 years which is better.


Plug is building out a green hydrogen infrastructure now. Major investments in NYS, ideal with our abundant hydro power. More in major US hubs with similar alternative energy. Partnerships in S Korea and Europe. Well on the way.


----------



## Gorehoar

Milo Maltbie said:


> Hydrogen is not dense enough for easy use, and it can make steel pressure vessels brittle. The pressure vessels you need to store H2 are probably too heavy for aviation. It probably can't be distributed to homes the way natural gas is, and it certainly couldn't be distributed by converting the natural gas system to H2.
> You also need make it from electricity, which means to be emission free you need to build solar, nuclear or hydro. All those are technical problems which may or may not be solved soon.
> Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be.
> 
> mm


They are experimenting with pelletized hydrogen that is reconstituted in flight. Some incredible innovation at work in to solve these challenges.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Gorehoar said:


> They are experimenting with pelletized hydrogen that is reconstituted in flight. Some incredible innovation at work in to solve these challenges.


I had't heard of that but there have been other solid storage solutions proposed. AFAIK none of them have been implemented at scale yet.
The main reason I think EVs will dominate over hydrogen is that EV batteries will better supprt the grid. Time will tell.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> It feels like EV's are being crammed down our throats.


Regulatory agencies are betting that EV support will be popular, and most car companies are betting that government support will continue. They're both betting that everyone will want an EV, which seems like a good bet. The dynamic really isn't much different than when they crammed interstate highways down our throats.


Campgottagopee said:


> EV's seem to save money for people who already have money.


That's just capitalism, but government support of EVs is part of the program to take carbon out the whole economy, not about saving money. OTOH the way you make your policy work is to insure that people can make money with it.

mm


----------



## x10003q

Milo Maltbie said:


> Regulatory agencies are betting that EV support will be popular, and most car companies are betting that government support will continue. They're both betting that everyone will want an EV, which seems like a good bet. *The dynamic really isn't much different than when they crammed interstate highways down our throats.*
> 
> That's just capitalism, but government support of EVs is part of the program to take carbon out the whole economy, not about saving money. OTOH the way you make your policy work is to insure that people can make money with it.
> 
> mm


Oh yes, Americans in the 1950s and 1960s hated the idea of getting into their huge, comfortable sedans that were rocking V8s and covering hundreds of miles in a few hours on those brand new concrete carpets at 70mph. How Horrible!!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> That's just capitalism, but government support of EVs is part of the program to take carbon out the whole economy, not about saving money. OTOH the way you make your policy work is to insure that people can make money with it.
> 
> mm


Right 
Now gas/fuel and EV'S are out of reach for the common folk.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> I was serious.
> It feels like EV's are being crammed down our throats. I don't appreciate that kind of feeling.
> EV's seem to save money for people who already have money. It seems people lose sight of that.


Mm was being sarcastic.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> ...EV'S are out of reach for the common folk.


Are they really? Is a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt all that more expensive than gas?
The way you move the market is to build stuff that everyone wants even if they can't afford it. Then you build cheaper copies. That's why Elon Musk started with a roadster, then the Model S, which was clearly aimed at the MB S class. A few thousand Model S's is a great success, but if he started by competing for the Hundai market a hundred thousand or even a million would have been a failure, and everyone would have head all the complaints about range and charging problems.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Are they really? Is a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt all that more expensive than gas?
> The way you move the market is to build stuff that everyone wants even if they can't afford it. Then you build cheaper copies. That's why Elon Musk started with a roadster, then the Model S, which was clearly aimed at the MB S class. A few thousand Model S's is a great success, but if he started by competing for the Hundai market a hundred thousand or even a million would have been a failure, and everyone would have head all the complaints about range and charging problems.
> 
> mm


That's fine for those who don't have families or don't need trucks.
What's a family of 5 going to buy?
What's a person that needs a 3/4 ton truck going to buy?
It's being forced. It feels like a square peg in a round hole.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> That's fine for those who don't have families or don't need trucks.
> What's a family of 5 going to buy?
> What's a person that needs a 3/4 ton truck going to buy?
> It's being forced. It feels like a square peg in a round hole.


IT seems to me that Ford has all those covered. 
I think it's getting close to the tipping point. Even I'm at the point where I might give up my clutch pedal. You're gonna have to sell EVs whether you like it or not. FWIW the most money is made when the markets are disrupted in some way, so you should be OK.

mm


----------



## MarzNC

I went to an EV Rodeo last weekend. It was a joint effort between a small local town and an EV "club" that's been around for several years. Carrboro is next to Chapel Hill, NC where the original Univ. of NC campus is located. As in Carolina basketball under Dean Smith and Roy Williams. There are plenty of EVs, PHEVs, and hybrids in the Triangle (Chapel Hill, Durham, Raleigh) already. Might even be a Rivian R1T around.

There was a Chevy Bolt, along with about a dozen other EV or PHEV cars. Most of the owners were volunteers who brought their cars and were willing to answer questions. I brought my 2021 RAV4 Prime. The most expensive was the Mercedes EBQ that was provided by a dealer. Seeing a Ford Mach-E next to a Kia EV6 was the most interesting for me.

In the Triangle, a 2023 Chevy Bolt can be bought for $27K to $37K depending on dealer and specs. Most people have a commute that is under 20 miles 1-way.

There was an e-bike store that brought models for test rides. First time for me and my daughter to check one out.

White car on the end is a Chevy Bolt, blue car is a Tesla Model 3, next white car is a Tesla Model Y




Red cars from left to right: Ford Mach-E, Kia EV6, Chevy Bolt




Ford Mach-E close to the camera, Kia EV6 behind has a smaller storage area under the hood




Kia EV6 owner was one of the event's organizers, he's an independent real estate agent, note license plate


----------



## jasonwx

I wouldn’t touch any GM product 
They couldn’t make a reliable toilet paper holder.


----------



## trackbiker

Campgottagopee said:


> Right
> Now gas/fuel and EV'S are out of reach for the common folk.


Just like any new product the price will eventually come down significantly. How much was a big screen TV when they first came out? How much was a smart phone when they first came out? Other than the cost of the battery, the number of components in an EV is much less than a ICE vehicle. A battery and 2 or 4 electric motors. No engine block, valves, fuel injector, cooling system, exhaust system, etc. The cost will eventually be less for an EV than an ICE vehicle.
I don't get the narrative that anyone is shoving EVs down our throat. The demand outstrips the supply right now. You can buy a Dodge Ram 3500 with a 6.7L HighCummins Turbo Diesel and burn all the fuel you want. Nobody is making anyone buy an EV.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> IT seems to me that Ford has all those covered.


I need to tow
Can't tow shit with an EV


----------



## Campgottagopee

trackbiker said:


> I don't get the narrative that anyone is shoving EVs down our throat. The demand outstrips the supply right now. You can buy a Dodge Ram 3500 with a 6.7L HighCummins Turbo Diesel and burn all the fuel you want. Nobody is making anyone buy an EV.


For now


----------



## Campgottagopee

‘This truck can’t do normal truck things’: YouTube star says towing with Ford’s new electric pickup is a ‘total disaster’ in viral video — but Wall Street still likes these 3 EV stocks
					

It may not be practical — at least for now.




					finance.yahoo.com


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> ‘This truck can’t do normal truck things’: YouTube star says towing with Ford’s new electric pickup is a ‘total disaster’ in viral video — but Wall Street still likes these 3 EV stocks
> 
> 
> It may not be practical — at least for now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finance.yahoo.com


Hoovies garage is a great channel
But you need to watch his follow up.


----------



## MarzNC

trackbiker said:


> Nobody is making anyone buy an EV.


As of this fall, there are almost 20 states that have regulations that will mean no ICE car sales after a specific year in the not so distant future. NY is in the process of defining regulations. Of course, like any target date the situation could change before we get to that year.

September 29, 2022


https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/ny-state-of-politics/2022/09/29/new-york-advances-plan-to-end-gas-vehicle-sales-by-2035


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> ‘This truck can’t do normal truck things’: YouTube star says towing with Ford’s new electric pickup is a ‘total disaster’ in viral video — but Wall Street still likes these 3 EV stocks
> 
> 
> It may not be practical — at least for now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finance.yahoo.com


Many pick-up truck buyers only use it as a daily driver and never tow anything.


----------



## MarzNC

Hmm, there are more options for a BEV big truck than I thought. Not for long distance, but for local or regional purposes. The 6x4 Volvo tractor has a range of 275 miles.









VNR Electric


The future is now.100% electric. 0% emissions when charged with renewable energy. Manufactured in Dublin, Virginia.




www.volvotrucks.us


----------



## Harvey

Is Volvo Trucks part of Volvo, or owned by who?

Yea 275 isn't enough for long haul. For short routes and in cities, some of those smaller trucks look sweet. You get the added benefit of improved air quality, where it affects a lot of people, in the city.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Is Volvo Trucks part of Volvo, or owned by who?


Started in 1959 according to the Volvo Truck website. Based in Greensboro, NC. Seems to be a separate company within Volvo.






Our History | Volvo Trucks USA


Volvo Group built its first truck in Sweden in 1928. Find out more about how we've been producing quality trucks for over 80 years.




www.volvotrucks.us





Apparently Volvo was working on a car and a truck in the late 1920s. Has been acquiring other truck companies for a while, including White, Autocar, and Western Star.









Volvo Trucks - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





My NCS classmate's first truck was a White. He's been in the trucking business since the late 1970s. He's a truck history buff. His grandfather was important to the development of Mack trucks. He also is paying attention to new developments such as EV and hydrogen trucks. Moved to all automatic transmission for his company's trucks quite a while ago. They get better fuel mileage.


----------



## MarzNC

Sounds like there is work happening to help NYC taxis move to EVs. Uber and Lyft are supporting the move to EV in general. How to provide charging in the city is a key issue. Applies to both overnight charging and fast-charging in areas where taxis spend the most time.

May 2022








NYC: Electric Ride Hailing, Taxis, & EV Fast Charging


Preparing for New York’s Shift to Cleaner, Quieter Electric Cars for Hire Stepping off the curb to hail a cab. Hopping in a taxi to get home from the train station. For more than a




cleantechnica.com


----------



## MarzNC

Trying to get more EV buses in NYC is also happening.

April 2022








MTA Surging Ahead With Electric Bus Plans


It’ll take a small town’s supply of juice to fuel the hundreds of emissions-free coaches the MTA plans to add to its 5,800-strong fleet. Not to mention all the depots that will have to be modified and workers retrained.




www.thecity.nyc


----------



## jasonwx

I see a ton of Tesla taxis in nyc


----------



## Campgottagopee

Rivian shares skid after EV maker recalls nearly all vehicles


Shares of Rivian Automotive Inc closed 7.3% lower on Monday after the electric-vehicle maker recalled nearly all its vehicles, heightening investor concerns that the company may not be able to meet its 2023 production target.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Rivian shares skid after EV maker recalls nearly all vehicles
> 
> 
> Shares of Rivian Automotive Inc closed 7.3% lower on Monday after the electric-vehicle maker recalled nearly all its vehicles, heightening investor concerns that the company may not be able to meet its 2023 production target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


I put a order in for one 3 weeks ago. At the same time I bought a decent amount of their stock. If things go as planned I'll have a sweet truck on the cheap. What could go wrong. Lol


----------



## trackbiker

MarzNC said:


> Apparently Volvo was working on a car and a truck in the late 1920s. Has been acquiring other truck companies for a while, including White, Autocar, and Western Star.
> 
> My NCS classmate's first truck was a White. He's been in the trucking business since the late 1970s. He's a truck history buff. His grandfather was important to the development of Mack trucks. He also is paying attention to new developments such as EV and hydrogen trucks. Moved to all automatic transmission for his company's trucks quite a while ago. They get better fuel mileage.


Volvo also owns Mack Trucks.


----------



## tirolski

Seems like Rivian owners are bitchin about manufacturing defects getting fixed.








Clarified: Rivian Service and Towing Policy Changes (10/07/2022)


I think this may be Rivians way of expanding their delivery zones. Rivian has been prioritizing deliveries near service centers, but as those get fulfilled they need to start delivering to reservations holders much further away from service centers. The costs of transporting a fleet of vehicles...




www.rivianforums.com




Who woulda thunk it?🤔
I believe Camp thunk it previously somewhere on here..


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I put a order in for one 3 weeks ago. At the same time I bought a decent amount of their stock. If things go as planned I'll have a sweet truck on the cheap. What could go wrong. Lol


Hopefully you get the thing. I'll truly be interested in how you like it. Good luck!!!


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Hopefully you get the thing. I'll truly be interested in how you like it. Good luck!!!


I don't expect it and won't except it for at least 13 months.


----------



## tirolski

Tjf1967 said:


> I don't expect it and won't except it for at least 13 months.


Is it accept or except?

I hope ya get a good one and it works for ya.


----------



## Tjf1967

Accept oops


----------



## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> I need to tow
> Can't tow shit with an EV


Seems these tow quite well using electric motors


----------



## x10003q

Andy_ROC said:


> Seems these tow quite well using electric motors
> View attachment 16045


Powered by a 6000hp, 4 stroke, twin turbo V-16 diesel engine - 251.2 liters (15,330 cu in). There are 6200 gallons of diesel fuel on board. One of the world's most powerful single engine diesel locomotives. The diesel engine prodiuces electricity for the electric traction motors.


----------



## Andy_ROC

x10003q said:


> Powered by a 6000hp, 4 stroke, twin turbo V-16 diesel engine - 251.2 liters (15,330 cu in). There are 6200 gallons of diesel fuel on board. One of the world's most powerful single engine diesel locomotives. The diesel engine prodiuces electricity for the electric traction motors.


I get that. My point is that electric motors can do extremely well towing heavy loads and are extremely efficient. It's just that the technology hasn't made its way to mainstream automobiles. I have confidence that this along with battery technology will be solved.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Powered by a 6000hp, 4 stroke, twin turbo V-16 diesel engine - 251.2 liters (15,330 cu in). There are 6200 gallons of diesel fuel on board. One of the world's most powerful single engine diesel locomotives. The diesel engine prodiuces electricity for the electric traction motors.


You beat me to it!!!!


----------



## Brownski

There’s no HP or traction problem to solve. Electric motors are great for that. That’s what makes a Tesla cool. The battery is the problem. A diesel electric scaled down to the size of a Tacoma might be just the thing- Super efficient- long lasting- I’d love to see that happen


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Powered by a 6000hp, 4 stroke, twin turbo V-16 diesel engine - 251.2 liters (15,330 cu in). There are 6200 gallons of diesel fuel on board. One of the world's most powerful single engine diesel locomotives. The diesel engine produces electricity for the electric traction motors.



Why do they do it that way, as opposed to running it off diesel?


----------



## Harvey

Tjf1967 said:


> I put a order in for one 3 weeks ago. At the same time I bought a decent amount of their stock. If things go as planned I'll have a sweet truck on the cheap. What could go wrong. Lol



What was your thinking? Sincerely.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Why do they do it that way, as opposed to running it off diesel?


Full torque at zero RPM


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> There’s no HP or traction problem to solve. Electric motors are great for that. That’s what makes a Tesla cool. The battery is the problem. A diesel electric scaled down to the size of a Tacoma might be just the thing- Super efficient- long lasting- I’d love to see that happen


Wondering what all the engineers around here make of the new battery that Tesla is trying to get into production mode. 

September 2022








Tesla Model Y price to fall with next-generation 4680 battery – report


Tesla’s advanced next-generation battery is expected to provide more range and power at a lower cost, once its availability is expanded – providing the electric-car giant can overcome production setbacks.




www.drive.com.au





August 2022


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I don't expect it and won't except it for at least 13 months.


Did they give you a price guarantee?


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Full torque at zero RPM



So it eliminates the need for gearing and/or reduces the amount of time to get up to speed?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> So it eliminates the need for gearing and/or reduces the amount of time to get up to speed?


Pulling machine right away. No lag in power.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> So it eliminates the need for gearing and/or reduces the amount of time to get up to speed?


At the weight and power of a locomotive, a friction clutch is not gonna work reliably, so your choice is hydraulic drive or electric. Electric motors get maximum torque at zero RPM, which is perfect for a train. There's really no other choice.

mm


----------



## Brownski

It’s efficiency too. Consider what a drive train that could handle all that torque would look like. It would be impossibly massive. A DE is the ultimate hybrid. They have been used for ships, industrial equipment and trains for decades. They keep scaling them up bigger and bigger. Id love to see if somebody could scale it down.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Did they give you a price guarantee?


Of course not.


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> What was your thinking? Sincerely.


Stock goes up. Sell stock buy truck.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Of course not.


Did you look at Ford? Or did you just want a rivian


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Did you look at Ford? Or did you just want a rivian


I've wanted a rivian for a long time. Longer than people here started talking about them. I may pivot to a Ford down the road. When I was out in deerborne visiting the Ford plant the tour guide showed us the small building they were building the lightning in right now. It wasn't much bigger than a ranch house. He said they were breaking ground in the fall for the lightning plant in Tennessee. I see Ford's commercials but their plant is still a pasture. I think they are blowing smoke and a couple of years away from mass production.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> I've wanted a rivian for a long time. Longer than people here started talking about them. I may pivot to a Ford down the road. When I was out in deerborne visiting the Ford plant the tour guide showed us the small building they were building the lightning in right now. It wasn't much bigger than a ranch house. He said they were breaking ground in the fall for the lightning plant in Tennessee. I see Ford's commercials but their plant is still a pasture. I think they are blowing smoke and a couple of years away from mass production.


At auctions I attended I've noticed more interest in rivian vs the lightning. Lightnings move slow on the wholesale level, rivian not so much. Both are bringing stupid big money.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> At auctions I attended I've noticed more interest in rivian vs the lightning. Lightnings move slow on the wholesale level, rivian not so much. Both are bringing stupid big money.


The lightnings don't get the mileage that people need. Hopefully rivian will tighten the bolts on the steering wheels before mine comes out.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Hopefully rivian will tighten the bolts on the steering wheels before mine comes out.


Really nothing to be concerned about. The joint venture between Subie and Toyota for their EV launch has been delayed because they couldn't keep the wheels on.....lol


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Really nothing to be concerned about. The joint venture between Subie and Toyota for their EV launch has been delayed because they couldn't keep the wheels on.....lol


Honda and Sony might jointly make em with PlayStations and/or Walkmans thingys 🍺.
Who needs wheels?


----------



## Ripitz

Li-Cycle opens battery recycling plant in Alabama — TechCrunch


Li-Cycle, a Canadian lithium-ion battery recycler, has opened a battery recycling facility in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The Toronto-based company, which also operates plants in Gilbert, Arizona and Rochester, New York, can now process up to 10,000 tons of manufacturing scrap and end-of-life batteries...




apple.news


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> I've wanted a rivian for a long time. Longer than people here started talking about them. I may pivot to a Ford down the road. When I was out in deerborne visiting the Ford plant the tour guide showed us the small building they were building the lightning in right now. It wasn't much bigger than a ranch house. He said they were breaking ground in the fall for the lightning plant in Tennessee. I see Ford's commercials but their plant is still a pasture. I think they are blowing smoke and a couple of years away from mass production.


T - I think I beat you? (Don't say something mean to me please). I remember you posting you were going to put an order in or had but then pulled it. I ordered May 2019. The good news is I have deferred the cash outlay or car payment for a few years . . . .

I test drove the R1s (SUV) yesterday. The thing is awesome. You all may recall my post on the Truck I test drove perhaps years ago at this point. I am not tall - 5'9 but I could sit in third row with the second row back to a comfortable position for a two hour ride if I had to (don't know when I would have to since I am buying the thing). The turning radius was smaller than my CRV which is a small vehicle. The R1s is supposed to be better for offroad due to shorter wheelbase. 

With the most recent round of delays, I am slotted into Oct -Dec delivery; BUT I have a white interior set up, and it looks like they wont do that on the SUV til January. In the meantime, the 11 year old crv that paid for this car has the transmission light come on for almost every drive now (140k miles). 

The recall take 15 min to fix if it is an issue and 5 min to inspect if not. However the gravity of the risk in rare cases is very high as apparently a wheel fell off of two different trucks (hence recall of all vehicles) for a bolt connecting the steering arm being under torqued.


----------



## DomB

Ripitz said:


> Li-Cycle opens battery recycling plant in Alabama — TechCrunch
> 
> 
> Li-Cycle, a Canadian lithium-ion battery recycler, has opened a battery recycling facility in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The Toronto-based company, which also operates plants in Gilbert, Arizona and Rochester, New York, can now process up to 10,000 tons of manufacturing scrap and end-of-life batteries...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


The former number 2 or 3 at Tesla left a few years ago to start a battery recycling company. There are legit uses for second life applications (solar batteries for example)


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> Really nothing to be concerned about. The joint venture between Subie and Toyota for their EV launch has been delayed because they couldn't keep the wheels on.....lol


Yes, in that one Toyota bought all the vehicles back and has just restarted production. The subie version I think hasn't hit the market yet.


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> The lightnings don't get the mileage that people need. Hopefully rivian will tighten the bolts on the steering wheels before mine comes out.


I was told at the test drive that on the line the fix is in the mfg process so if you get one off the line you should be good. If you get one from the 'store' of R1ts, I'd imagine they check it before you get it, but there are a bunch of posts of what to look for on Rivian Forums.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> At auctions I attended I've noticed more interest in rivian vs the lightning. Lightnings move slow on the wholesale level, rivian not so much. Both are bringing stupid big money.


I'll stop machine gunning everyone. Apparently a handful of R1ts did not hit the reserve on cars and bids (but are still selling high at live auctions or from dealers). An R1s (admittedly very rare right now) went for 130k. I think that is around the trucks were going when they were very scarce.


----------



## Ripitz

_Recycled Battery Materials Can Work as Well as New Ones_








Recycled Battery Materials Can Work as Well as New Ones — WIRED


In an independent test, cathode components Redwood Materials made from reused metals matched the performance of those made from raw ones.




apple.news


----------



## Campgottagopee

Let's see.
Tesla's fit and finish is approved by chimpanzee. Rivian steering wheels are falling off. Toyota/Subie can't keep their wheels on. All are grossly overpriced.
I mean, who wouldn't want an EV 🤷😏😁


----------



## Tjf1967

40 dollars to drive 1000 miles. 815hp. Even more torque. Hey so the steering wheel comes off in your hand once in a while.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> 40 dollars to drive 1000 miles. 815hp. Even more torque. Hey so the steering wheel comes off in your hand once in a while.


You're a money man so I know you've done the math.
I'm a car guy who expects my steering wheel to stay on, my wheels to stay on, and my expensive cars bodylines to line up.....lol


----------



## Tjf1967

I put 650 dollars in gas in my car last month. I may have problems one day per week. I travel over 300 miles. I want to plug it in when I get home. My biggest concern is if I'll be able to keep the cabin warm in the winter.


----------



## tirolski

Tjf1967 said:


> My biggest concern is if I'll be able to keep the cabin warm in the winter.


Isn’t that why folks invented firewood? YMMV.


----------



## Tjf1967

tirolski said:


> Isn’t that why folks invented firewood? YMMV.


I don't really think fire wood was an invention was it?


----------



## tirolski

Tjf1967 said:


> I don't really think fire wood was an invention was it?


It was before ya could patent it, so folks burning wood was more of a discovery.








Human Ancestors Tamed Fire Earlier Than Thought


Campfire remains from a South African cave suggest fire control by early humans dates back 1 million years.




www.history.com




Woodstoves were invented though.








A Brief History of the Woodstove


Read a brief history of the woodstove from The Old Farmer's Almanac.




www.almanac.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Hopefully there's a rivian repair center near you. 








						Rivian Starts Charging People For Towing, Even For Covered Work
					

It comes as no surprise that Rivian is struggling and trying to bring in extra cash. However, people will likely be upset by having to pay for towing for covered repairs.




					insideevs.com


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Hopefully there's a rivian repair center near you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rivian Starts Charging People For Towing, Even For Covered Work
> 
> 
> It comes as no surprise that Rivian is struggling and trying to bring in extra cash. However, people will likely be upset by having to pay for towing for covered repairs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insideevs.com


I read it as they will pay for things that are under warranty. Sounds like people were having them towed in for anything.


----------



## Ripitz

This dude went 1,600 miles in a Tesla without plugging it in.








						A small modification allowed Tesla Model S to travel 1,600 miles without charging — Interesting Engineering
					

You either love or absolutely hate such mods.




					apple.news


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> This dude went 1,600 miles in a Tesla without plugging it in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A small modification allowed Tesla Model S to travel 1,600 miles without charging — Interesting Engineering
> 
> 
> You either love or absolutely hate such mods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Yup, and used gasoline.
Imagine that 🤔


----------



## jasonwx

So he made a Prius ?


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> So he made a Prius ?


Almost
A Prius has better fit and finish


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Almost
> A Prius has better fit and finish


Seems like it would have been easier if he just pull the trailer with a generator on it


----------



## x10003q

Tjf1967 said:


> Seems like it would have been easier if he just pull the trailer with a generator on it


A diesel generator


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> A diesel generator


And use the app that tells other drivers where they can get juiced back up.
Kinda like a portable electric refill über thingy 🍺🤔 with lots of cords for when it’s really busy.


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> This dude went 1,600 miles in a Tesla without plugging it in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A small modification allowed Tesla Model S to travel 1,600 miles without charging — Interesting Engineering
> 
> 
> You either love or absolutely hate such mods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Not sure how you call that a small modification. Or am I not getting the joke.

Still, sometimes it takes some crazy to invent the future. eg Elon.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Not sure how you call that a small modification. Or am I not getting the joke.
> 
> Still, sometimes it takes some crazy to invent the future. eg Elon.


You mean everybody doesn't have a CNC machine in their garage?


----------



## jasonwx

x10003q said:


> You mean everybody doesn't have a CNC machine in their garage?


I know 2 people that do🥴


----------



## DomB

This is interesting - this shows you how small the EV market is right now. R1T sold similar to X (2.9 vs 3.2 % of market). Shows they are actually making R1s but small numbers. Over 11,000 R1ts (kind of annoying to me as T orders from this year have been filled I think but no S - that's life). 

https://www.coxautoinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Q3-2022-Kelley-Blue-Book-Electrified-Vehicle-Sales-Report.pdfhttps://www.coxautoinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Q3-2022-Kelley-Blue-Book-Electrified-Vehicle-Sales-Report.pdf


----------



## Harvey

DomB said:


> https://www.coxautoinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Q3-2022-Kelley-Blue-Book-Electrified-Vehicle-Sales-Report.pdfhttps://www.coxautoinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Q3-2022-Kelley-Blue-Book-Electrified-Vehicle-Sales-Report.pdf


That's interesting to see. Would be very cool if it was an excel and you could rank it.

Toyota is he hybrid king, Tesla EV. Some cars that were sold last year have zero sales this year?

Also curious Dom, you have been through a lot with Rivian. Why are you so devoted?


----------



## Brownski

I saw a Rivian S parked in Westchester. It was blah- zero curb appeal. I understand why they’re pushing the trucks- from a marketing perspective


----------



## Warp daddy

I frankly do NOT get Rivian at all for the price point .


----------



## Brownski

They’re depending on conspicuous consumption to sell lower quality vehicles to rich people. If the technology was there to build a practical EV that normal people could afford, somebody would do it.


----------



## Harvey

Warp daddy said:


> I frankly do NOT get Rivian at all for the price point .



Early adapters are not all about money. People have all kinds of reasons for buying things. Is a muscle car really worth it? Yes, to the person who buys it. It's why they buy it. It's worth it to them, for whatever reason.


----------



## Brownski

OK. I won’t belabor the point.


----------



## Harvey

You may be right. Just saying this is not an isolated example of people buying stuff for reasons other people don't understand.

By some measures (like getting from point a to point b) the cheapest reliable car out there is 90% as good as a lexus or whatever.


----------



## Campgottagopee

The EV market will always be small due to price.
For the life of me I don't understand why our government, can't/won't, support both EV and ICE vehicles.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> By some measures (like getting from point a to point b) the cheapest reliable car out there is 90% as good as a lexus or whatever.


And $$$$
The depreciation of the highline market is staggering.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> The EV market will always be small due to price.
> For the life of me I don't understand why our government, can't/won't, support both EV and ICE vehicles.


Saying the EV market will always be small is akin to saying technology ceases to evolve. The CD player was $800 in 1982, now if you can buy one for $20. Memory was $200/mb in 1990 and now it's $20 for 20GB.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Andy_ROC said:


> Saying the EV market will always be small is akin to saying technology ceases to evolve.


True
I should've said "for a long time". My bad.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> They’re depending on conspicuous consumption to sell lower quality vehicles to rich people. If the technology was there to build a practical EV that normal people could afford, somebody would do it.


That's a marketing strategy. If you make something rich people want, everyone will want it. If you made something for ordinary people looking to save money, lots of people would buy it but it would overwhelm the limited charging infrastructure that now exists and people would still be hoping to trade up for an Escalade. That doesn't get you to the goal of eliminating gas cars.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> For the life of me I don't understand why our government, can't/won't, support both EV and ICE vehicles.


The government has always supported ICE cars and still does. Fish don't notice the water. In any event, the goal is to eliminate fossil fuel from transportation, so supporting ICE is counterproductive.

mm


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> That's interesting to see. Would be very cool if it was an excel and you could rank it.


Ya know ya can copy and paste from pdfs. YMMV.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> If the technology was there to build a practical EV that normal people could afford, somebody would do it.


That’s why electric golf carts are popular and better than gas ones.
And folks seem to like their ebikes vs their old peddle pushers.


----------



## Tjf1967

Warp daddy said:


> I frankly do NOT get Rivian at all for the price point .


When you put 50k miles on your car and look at the total cost of ownership things start to make more sense. I can buy a 90k vehicle and pay the same over 5 years as 50k gas car. In addition I have a truck rather than a sedan. no longer have to pump gas. Not to mention I'll blow the doors off of every muscle car out there. I'll never do it but knowing you can is the point. Oh and I'm saving the environment. Lol I could give two shots about that myself to be honest. That said my environmental foot print is greener than most.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> The depreciation of the highline market is staggering.



In the past, every time I traded in my CRV at 100k I got $10k for them. Is there a list of cars by depreciation and resale? Probably wouldn't change what I buy, but I am curious.

I would bet that EVs that are close to the end of the battery warrantee would drop a lot.


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> That’s why electric golf carts are popular and better than gas ones.
> And folks seem to like their ebikes vs their old peddle pushers.


Love my electric utility Club Car and ebike. 

The technology is definitely there to make affordable electric vehicles for most peoples needs. The reason why it hasn’t taken off yet has to do with safety laws and cultural acceptance. The micro-mobility sector is about to explode. Something between the crazy expensive fully loaded luxury EVs and a golf cart is coming soon. The range would be small. They could be produced cheaply, probably 3D printed or something crazy like that. They will also have simple skateboard platforms so you can swap out different body styles for different purposes. You could have a flatbed, van, camper or passenger vehicle with a 50 mile range or so for not a lot of money.


----------



## Warp daddy

Tjf1967 said:


> When you put 50k miles on your car and look at the total cost of ownership things start to make more sense. I can buy a 90k vehicle and pay the same over 5 years as 50k gas car. In addition I have a truck rather than a sedan. no longer have to pump gas. Not to mention I'll blow the doors off of every muscle car out there. I'll never do it but knowing you can is the point. Oh and I'm saving the environment. Lol I could give two shots about that myself to be honest. That said my environmental foot print is greener than most.


Point taken TJ ..

serious question : would the battery last that 450,000 miles ? If not ,,what's the replacement cost of a battery that for sake of illustration craps out at say 300k ?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Screw it
I'm going to order one of these








Rolls-Royce Reveals the Spectre, a Massive, Maximally Badass EV Super Coupe


The four-seat Spectre fastback is an unabashed rich person's express that bows before no one.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## Tjf1967

Warp daddy said:


> Point taken TJ ..
> 
> serious question : would the battery last that 450,000 miles ? If not ,,what's the replacement cost of a battery that for sake of illustration craps out at say 300k ?


I'll let you know. I believe they can and have but you lose mileage when they get older.. i have looked at replacement costs but didn't pay much attention. It's... I'm guessing 6k


----------



## tirolski

Tjf1967 said:


> I'll let you know. I believe they can and have but you lose mileage when they get older..


The batteries lose mileage range but do they also lose energy efficiency as they age?
I know I have.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> True
> I should've said "for a long time". My bad.


I don't think it will be as long as some think. Battery technology is evolving rapidly. In 1999 Kodak thought digital photography could never reach the quality and definition of film. 10 years later almost no one was using film.



Harvey said:


> In the past, every time I traded in my CRV at 100k I got $10k for them. Is there a list of cars by depreciation and resale? Probably wouldn't change what I buy, but I am curious.
> 
> I would bet that EVs that are close to the end of the battery warrantee would drop a lot.


Love both my CRV's--- yeah I own two


----------



## Brownski

I think the batteries are required by law to last 100k miles right? I’m pretty sure range deteriorates pretty rapidly after that and buying a new battery is like buying a whole new ICE vehicle. I haven’t heard of any EVs going 300k miles.


----------



## Tjf1967

Brownski said:


> I think the batteries are required by law to last 100k miles right? I’m pretty sure range deteriorates pretty rapidly after that and buying a new battery is like buying a whole new ICE vehicle. I haven’t heard of any EVs going 300k miles.


OMG u should preface your posts with I don't know shit about shit before writing what you think you know. That was a joke, my comment. 
300,000 to 500,000 miles


----------



## Brownski

Tjf1967 said:


> OMG u should preface your posts with I don't know shit about shit before writing what you think you know.


I kind of did. I checked and the 100k warranty requirement is accurate. I admit the rest was pure hearsay/stirring the pot


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> I admit the rest was pure hearsay/stirring the pot


Attaboy 👍
What’s the use of the interwebs without that anyway?








EV Batteries 101: Degradation, Lifespan, Warranties, and More


All new electric vehicles sold in the US come with at least an 8-year/100,000-mile battery warranty. But how long do EV batteries actually last and what happens when they die?




www.pcmag.com


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Tjf1967 said:


> Oh and I'm saving the environment. Lol I could give two shots about that myself to be honest.


Won't _somebody_ think of the children!


----------



## Harvey

Not an EV, but I thought our Prius came with an 8 year warrantee on batteries with no mileage limit.

Car is 10 years old with 130,000 miles on it. I have no idea about the condition of the batteries, but it still gets the same mileage it did when it was new, 55-60. That's with my wife driving it, I'm sure I could do better  ( < haha, that was for you Broski)

My car guy Al told me that the price of the replacement batteries fluctuates quite a bit. He also said you can look at each "cell" and replace the worst ones, leaving the rest to save some money.

In the end, the batteries are the key. Beyond batteries, there is much less to wear out in an EV vs ICE.


----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> In 1999 Kodak thought digital photography could never reach the quality and definition of film. 10 years later almost no one was using film.



Kodak totally choked. They INVENTED the digital camera and deep-sixed it because they thought it would damage their film business. They were right!


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> In the end, the batteries are the key. Beyond batteries, there is much less to wear out in an EV vs ICE.


Besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> That’s why electric golf carts are popular and better than gas ones.
> And folks seem to like their ebikes vs their old peddle pushers.


There are two shops in Chapel Hill, NC selling e-bikes. They cost $2000-4000. The value is that they can replace a car for getting around town, doing the grocery shopping, and getting to campus. Parking in town or on campus is a pain. The bus system is free but has a limited schedule except for during the morning and afternoon commuting hours.

My daughter and I got to test ride a fancy e-bike a few weeks ago at an EV Rodeo event near Chapel Hill. If I lived in Chapel Hill, I would get one. The university and medical complex (lots of research facilities) is at the top of a hill. I rode a bike in high school and college to get to class at times. Had to go up a pretty steep hill, which is the case coming from three of four points of the compass.


----------



## MarzNC

Ripitz said:


> The technology is definitely there to make affordable electric vehicles for most peoples needs. The reason why it hasn’t taken off yet has to do with safety laws and cultural acceptance. The micro-mobility sector is about to explode. Something between the crazy expensive fully loaded luxury EVs and a golf cart is coming soon. The range would be small. They could be produced cheaply, probably 3D printed or something crazy like that. They will also have simple skateboard platforms so you can swap out different body styles for different purposes. You could have a flatbed, van, camper or passenger vehicle with a 50 mile range or so for not a lot of money.


Doesn't get much smaller or cheaper than these cars being marketed in India.

August 2022





Small electric cars in India


136+ User votes help you to decide best small electric car of India. All about Small electric cars in India ✓ Price ✓ Specification ✓ Riding Range ✓ Seating Capacity ✓ Car Type ✓ Top Speed. last updated on:- 8-09-2022 Today in this post we are going to share small electric cars in India right…



www.talkingtrendo.com


----------



## MarzNC

I'm not an engineer, but find the videos by Sandy Munro's team somewhat interesting. Here's a couple about the relatively new Tesla 4680 battery. They essentially took a battery pack apart completely, and then deconstructed one of the cells.

September 2022





August 2022


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> There are two shops in Chapel Hill, NC selling e-bikes. They cost $2000-4000. The value is that they can replace a car for getting around town, doing the grocery shopping, and getting to campus. Parking in town or on campus is a pain. The bus system is free but has a limited schedule except for during the morning and afternoon commuting hours.
> 
> My daughter and I got to test ride a fancy e-bike a few weeks ago at an EV Rodeo event near Chapel Hill. If I lived in Chapel Hill, I would get one. The university and medical complex (lots of research facilities) is at the top of a hill. I rode a bike in high school and college to get to class at times. Had to go up a pretty steep hill, which is the case coming from three of four points of the compass.


Isn’t that why they call it Chapel *Hill*?


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Isn’t that why they call it Chapel *Hill*?


Yep, they put the university and the chapel at the top of a hill over 200 years ago. Elevation 300 ft.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> That's interesting to see. Would be very cool if it was an excel and you could rank it.
> 
> Toyota is the hybrid king, Tesla EV. Some cars that were sold last year have zero sales this year?
> 
> Also curious Dom, you have been through a lot with Rivian. Why are you so devoted?


IDK. I am probably less devoted than some folks. Honestly primary driver is that I want a 3 row SUV that isn't super bad for the environment over time that I can occasionally take on the beach (EV's are pro rata more dirty first 18000 miles but then ridiculously cleaner unless your state's electric is very dirty like W. VA). If you go with a non hybrid or EV option than you are down to like 25 miles per gallon hwy for 3d row. 

That basically leaves you a Rivian or a Highlander Hybrid. After rebate and taxes It is an incremental 20,000 (which is admittedly a lot of money) for the Rivian over a Highlander Hybrid. So to me it is paying that incremental amount for the performance of the vehicle, the frunk (a Rivain has same storage cu ft as a Yukon), the ability to go offroad pretty easily (which I use a decent amount on beach; i could sneak the highlander on but some days would be worried about being stuck). 

The ridiculous performance and optionality for offroad/sport tune/all purpose/conserve are nice but not really why i am getting it. It is quite fun to do the 3.1 s 0-60 'launch' but I am sure that gets old quickly. 

Of course, I will be taking on a bunch of early adopter risk. It seems there are some reports that the Rivian doesn't always play nicely with Eltrectify America.


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> The EV market will always be small due to price.
> For the life of me I don't understand why our government, can't/won't, support both EV and ICE vehicles.


I think this is true if Tesla and Rivian are the winners. If GM gets its act together, I think there will be affordable EVs. They dropped the price on the bolt to like 27k before rebate and under the new law subject to income limits it could get up to 10 or 12k I think in rebates.


----------



## DomB

Warp daddy said:


> Point taken TJ ..
> 
> serious question : would the battery last that 450,000 miles ? If not ,,what's the replacement cost of a battery that for sake of illustration craps out at say 300k ?


Oh yes, the economics on mainteance are pretty ridiculous. I recently went on the gov sight for fuel economy and a Rivian vs. a Yukon (about same size and utility) you would save something like 10k over a few years in fuel cost between the two for normalized driving. 

That is setting aside the lesser maintenance etc. So I guess that 20k gap I was talking about even with a hybrid is probably closer to 10k over life.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> Kodak totally choked. They INVENTED the digital camera and deep-sixed it because they thought it would damage their film business. They were right!


GM did the same with the first true EV. They only leased, and then in CA, and then called em all back and crushed it. It was way back maybe early 2000s.


----------



## Andy_ROC

DomB said:


> I think this is true if Tesla and Rivian are the winners. If GM gets its act together, I think there will be affordable EVs. They dropped the price on the bolt to like 27k before rebate and under the new law subject to income limits it could get up to 10 or 12k I think in rebates.


I think Honda and/or Toyota will be creating the highest quality and affordable EVs before anyone else.


----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> Battery technology is evolving rapidly.


Can you tell me more about this? When will affordable EVs got 500 miles? When will battery mining and recycling improve to the point where EVs are sustainable?

My questions are sincere. I hope you will open my eyes.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> When will affordable EVs go 500 miles?


What is the reason you think 500 miles is necessary before a BEV is worth considering?

I drove the 2007 ICE minivan for a decade from NC to Lake Placid, Boston, and Chicago with only 300 miles as the maximum I could count on for highway driving.

My friend who has had a Tesla for a while managed to drive up to Lake Placid from NC in the winter time for his daughter's North Country School vacations. He would do the drive in just over a day in each direction because he's a small business owner who couldn't take much time off. Granted that Tesla Superchargers make charging during a long trip pretty straight forward. Bottom line is that even with only about 220 miles of range in the cold, he wasn't in danger of getting stuck for lack of enough battery power.

My RAV4 Prime PHEV has a range of 400-450 miles as a hybrid. I know some people think that's too low. They want 500 miles. I don't understand why. Not much difference when doing a 2000 mile drive out to Colorado in three days, with the longest day covering 800 miles.

The Chevy Bolt BEV has a range of 230-260 miles, depending on average speed. Less efficient at highway speeds so get more miles driving around town. Starts at $25,500 and seems to top out at around $30K.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Andy_ROC said:


> I think Honda and/or Toyota will be creating the highest quality and affordable EVs before anyone else.


Right, just as soon as Toyota figures out a way to keep the wheels on.... LoL
The CEO of Toyota isn't sold on EVs.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Everybody should have an EV. Electricity and water.....whoda thunkit








Florida State Fire Marshal calls on Elon Musk, other EV producers for answers about vehicles catching fire from Hurricane Ian flooding


Florida State Fire Marshal Jimmy Patronis has called for electric car companies to answer for electric vehicles that have burst into flames from the storm...




www.orlandoweekly.com


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> Right, just as soon as Toyota figures out a way to keep the wheels on.... LoL
> The CEO of Toyota isn't sold on EVs.


my friend's kid is a engineer at toyota.. there will be a toyota ev...that said he is also working on the hydrogen program


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> What is the reason you think 500 miles is necessary before a BEV is worth considering?



I never said this. 400 miles is fine, I was just typing fast. Basically how far do you want to drive without taking a break. 250 isn't enough IMO. If you only own one car.

I think when EV can go as far as other cars, and are cost competitive, and the batteries aren't enviro-disasters they will be widely accepted and make sense. I was looking for input on when it could happen.

I don't think too many people doubt most of the rest of your post. I think right now hybrids and pluggin hybrids are practical, and could make a huge difference in the amount carbon we put out. That wasn't what I was asking.

I also sense that Toyota isn't full speed ahead on EVs. Or Honda. I'm going to need a pickup in a couple years and the early info on the Tacoma pluggin looks like it will be leaning on the side power/offroad vs MPG. I want a pluggin Taco that is built for mileage. May or may not exist my time frame.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Everybody should have an EV. Electricity and water.....whoda thunkit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida State Fire Marshal calls on Elon Musk, other EV producers for answers about vehicles catching fire from Hurricane Ian flooding
> 
> 
> Florida State Fire Marshal Jimmy Patronis has called for electric car companies to answer for electric vehicles that have burst into flames from the storm...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.orlandoweekly.com



Yea EVs don't make much sense in flood zones. For that matter neither do houses.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I never said this. 400 miles is fine, I was just typing fast. Basically how far do you want to drive without taking a break. 250 isn't enough IMO. If you only own one car.


Okay, 400 miles not 500 as the minimum. Although 500 mile range is often mentioned by people who think an EV is impractical for them at this stage. I had that happen on another forum when I said my RAV4's range as a hybrid was 400 miles even in difficult driving conditions and 450 in optimal conditions.

200 miles is at least 3 hours at highway speeds. My guess is that most people need at least a rest stop after a couple of hours, although I've gone 3-4 hours at times when driving solo. Note that I'm thinking about a sedan or SUV, not a pickup. Not thinking about towing at all. I don't even like driving with a bike rack on the back of the minivan.

Agree that a household that only owns one car is very different than one with two parked somewhere near the house. Just as someone who lives in an apartment or condo where charging is not convenient is not likely to go for a BEV for quite a while. Maybe an e-bike instead.



Harvey said:


> I think when EV can go as far as other cars, and are cost competitive, and the batteries aren't enviro-disasters they will be widely accepted and make sense. I was looking for input on when it could happen.


The target being set as of 2022 by about 20 states is 2035 in terms of requiring new car sales to be BEVs. A lot needs to happen in the next ten years if that target is to remain viable.

Note that new car sales in Norway are almost at 80% BEV, with PHEV sales declining slightly. I would guess that most of the BEVs are small cars. Of course, Norway is a pretty small country if someone only drives there and neighboring Sweden. Oslo to Stockholm (far side of Sweden) is only 350 miles.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Yea EVs don't make much sense it flood zones. For that matter neither do houses.


Can't resist . . . driving away from a house at high risk of post-hurricane flooding after Ian passed through FL. I gather the guy does a lot of YouTube videos about his Telsa.


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> Okay, 400 miles not 500 as the minimum. Although 500 mile range is often mentioned by people who think an EV is impractical for them at this stage. I had that happen on another forum when I said my RAV4's range as a hybrid was 400 miles even in difficult driving conditions and 450 in optimal conditions.
> 
> 200 miles is at least 3 hours at highway speeds. My guess is that most people need at least a rest stop after a couple of hours, although I've gone 3-4 hours at times when driving solo. Note that I'm thinking about a sedan or SUV, not a pickup. Not thinking about towing at all. I don't even like driving with a bike rack on the back of the minivan.
> 
> Agree that a household that only owns one car is very different than one with two parked somewhere near the house. Just as someone who lives in an apartment or condo where charging is not convenient is not likely to go for a BEV for quite a while. Maybe an e-bike instead.
> 
> 
> The target being set as of 2022 by about 20 states is 2035 in terms of requiring new car sales to be BEVs. A lot needs to happen in the next ten years if that target is to remain viable.
> 
> Note that new car sales in Norway are almost at 80% BEV, with PHEV sales declining slightly. I would guess that most of the BEVs are small cars. Of course, Norway is a pretty small country if someone only drives there and neighboring Sweden. Oslo to Stockholm (far side of Sweden) is only 350 miles.


On road trips we only stop when we need gas, so 5-6 hrs...i still think the key to wide spread ev acceptance is quick charging , 10 mins max...preferably 5-7 mins


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> Everybody should have an EV. Electricity and water.....whoda thunkit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida State Fire Marshal calls on Elon Musk, other EV producers for answers about vehicles catching fire from Hurricane Ian flooding
> 
> 
> Florida State Fire Marshal Jimmy Patronis has called for electric car companies to answer for electric vehicles that have burst into flames from the storm...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.orlandoweekly.com


Just park them in a big bowl of rice overnight. Problem solved.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Just park them in a big bowl of rice overnight. Problem solved.


Or popcorn for some real fun.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> Can you tell me more about this? When will affordable EVs got 500 miles? When will battery mining and recycling improve to the point where EVs are sustainable?
> 
> My questions are sincere. I hope you will open my eyes.



That's a fair question Harvey. Disclaimer: I'm no expert and don't own an EV but I find EV's and Plug-in Hybrids to be of growing interest and am interested to watch it evolve in the mainstream.

From 2008 to 2020 volumetric energy density increased >8x








FOTW #1234, April 18, 2022: Volumetric Energy Density of Lithium-ion Batteries Increased by More than Eight Times Between 2008 and 2020


Volumetric energy density refers to the amount of energy that can be contained within a given volume.




www.energy.gov





Technology to rapidly charge EV batteries to near full in 5 mins https://amp.theguardian.com/environ...es-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times









Electric vehicle battery capable of 98% charge in less than ten minutes


Enovix also demonstrated its US-made silicon anode lithium-ion batteries can charge 0% to 80% in five minutes.




pv-magazine-usa.com


----------



## Harvey

jasonwx said:


> On road trips we only stop when we need gas, so 5-6 hrs...i still think the key to wide spread ev acceptance is quick charging , 10 mins max...preferably 5-7 mins



I agree with this. If you can't drive all day, charging has to be fast.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> I agree with this. If you can't drive all day, charging has to be fast.


The new Formula E Gen 3 cars go over 200 mph and fully charge in 30 seconds. Is that fast enough?


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> The new Formula E Gen 3 cars go over 200 mph and fully charge in 30 seconds. Is that fast enough?


Fast enough for me. Why isn't that available to all? $$$$$?


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> my friend's kid is a engineer at toyota.. there will be a toyota ev...that said he is also working on the hydrogen program


Yes 
They currently have a joint venture EV with Subie.
Launch is delayed because the wheels fall off.
Crazy.... You can't make it up.


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> Or popcorn for some real fun.


Made me think of this classic SNL commercial with Phil Hartman.😂 He was the best. RIP.


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> The new Formula E Gen 3 cars go over 200 mph and fully charge in 30 seconds. Is that fast enough?


and they only cost $360,000 and have a range of about 50 miles.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Can't resist . . . driving away from a house at high risk of post-hurricane flooding after Ian passed through FL. I gather the guy does a lot of YouTube videos about his Telsa.


I only watched a few seconds. What critical tasks did he accomplished on this drive? Did he save a life?


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> I have seen my first dead-EV-getting-charged-by-a-gas-generator-on-the-side-of-the-road pic on Instagram.


Sometimes in life the opposite can also be true. Case in point, first dead-ICE-getting-charged-by-a-solar-generator-out-in-the-field pic on NYSkiBlog.


----------



## Brownski

That’s pretty cool. I wonder how long it would take to charge an E bike that way


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> That’s pretty cool. I wonder how long it would take to charge an E bike that way


I can do it in about 8 hours of full sun. It could be done in half that time with bigger panels and a larger generator.


----------



## Sbob

Ripitz said:


> The new Formula E Gen 3 cars go over 200 mph and fully charge in 30 seconds. Is that fast enough?


Fast changing batteries is not good for longevity. 









Tesla Owner Blows Up Car When Faced with $22,000 Repair Bill


Tuomas Katainen blew up his 2013 Tesla Model S when he learned it would cost him around $22,000 to repair




people.com


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> I can do it in about 8 hours of full sun. It could be done in half that time with bigger panels and a larger generator.


or an extension cord from your house.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> or an extension cord from your house.



Outlets in Rip's house are powered by panels on his roof.


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> On road trips we only stop when we need gas, so 5-6 hrs...i still think the key to wide spread ev acceptance is quick charging , 10 mins max...preferably 5-7 mins


Not only quick charging, but also reliable charging away from home. Seems clear that one reason Tesla is still the better bet for a BEV is the Tesla charging network.

I stopped by a "farm adventure" mini-resort in northwest Indiana in the past week. Fair Oaks Farms recently upgraded from 2 Tesla chargers to a dozen chargers. There were 4 Teslas charging on a Friday and 2 on a Tuesday. The four last week all had Indiana plates.

Rivian has promised an "adventure network" for charging but it's going to be a while before that's really useful.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I only watched a few seconds. What critical tasks did he accomplished on this drive? Did he save a life?


Bottom line seemed to be that his house and neighborhood was likely to be completely flooded out within a few hours due to incoming inland flooding. Had he stayed, the car would have been history and his friend would also have needed to be rescued. He had solar power and had been letting neighbors who were already flooded out stay in his house. They were going to hope for the best.

Point was that he drove his Tesla through deep water at speed and made it through. He is clearly not someone who goes off-roading.


----------



## Campgottagopee

The Cost for a 2018 KIA Soul Battery Replacement Was so High, the Owner Gave the Car Back
					

A 2011 Lincoln MKZ hybrid vehicle owner had a very unpleasant experience when he saw the $20,000 bill for the battery replacement needed after it failed....




					www.autoevolution.com


----------



## MC2

I


Campgottagopee said:


> The Cost for a 2018 KIA Soul Battery Replacement Was so High, the Owner Gave the Car Back
> 
> 
> A 2011 Lincoln MKZ hybrid vehicle owner had a very unpleasant experience when he saw the $20,000 bill for the battery replacement needed after it failed....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.autoevolution.com


I can’t believe they write news stories now that are just: “here are 2 anecdotes, go tell all your friends!”

The story didn’t even have any statistics as to how common this sort of thing is. It didn’t even have any graphs!!! 😎


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> It didn’t even have any graphs!!! 😎


Always appreciate your sense of humor!!! 


MC2 said:


> I can’t believe they write news stories now that are just: “here are 2 anecdotes, go tell all your friends!”


I don't believe they're anecdotes, it's happening more and more. We also need to remember that EV, and especially pre-owned EV's are relatively new to the market. To support this, some of the auctions I attend have big-ass signs, "All EV's are sold 100% as-is". That speaks volumes. EV's are starting to show up more and more, the pre-owned market for them is very soft. They are a tough sell at dealer auctions.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> ... We also need to remember that EV, and especially pre-owned EV's are relatively new to the market. To support this, some of the auctions I attend have big-ass signs, "All EV's are sold 100% as-is". That speaks volumes. EV's are starting to show up more and more, the pre-owned market for them is very soft. They are a tough sell at dealer auctions.


Do ya get money back from the government if ya but a used EV?
If not, why not?


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Do ya get money back from the government if ya but a used EV?
> If not, why not?


Hell no
The current government incentives only help the already wealthy folk. Why?? No clue.


----------



## jasonwx

Yes it cost a boat load to replace a battery 
I can remember back in the 60’s 70’ it was Relatively common place to have to replace an engine after 70,000 miles or at least have it rebuilt that goes the same for transmissions too
Just saying
It different but the same


----------



## Andy_ROC

jasonwx said:


> Yes it cost a boat load to replace a battery
> I can remember back in the 60’s 70’ it was Relatively common place to have to replace an engine after 70,000 miles or at least have it rebuilt that goes the same for transmissions too
> Just saying
> It different but the same


70s vintage cars driven daily on salted roads were on the way to being rust buckets after 5-6 years. $4K Transmissions have been a near certainty even today for some brands at 100k miles or less. 

@Harvey I stumbled upon another interesting energy storage technology called solid hydrogen. This could be huge.


----------



## x10003q

I will pay more attention to EVs when a manufacturer provides a sedan like the Honda Accord/Toy Camry/Chevy Malibu/Hyundai Sonata class in the 25k-35k price range and size. The Tesla 3 is a class smaller than these and starts just under $50k.


----------



## DomB

x10003q said:


> I will pay more attention to EVs when a manufacturer provides a sedan like the Honda Accord/Toy Camry/Chevy Malibu/Hyundai Sonata class in the 25k-35k price range and size. The Tesla 3 is a class smaller than these and starts just under $50k.


Isn't this the Chevy Bolt, or is that too small? I guess that is more of a civic or fit class. But it is 27.5 before rebate which I think could come down as much as 10k (?) under the new rules.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Do ya get money back from the government if ya but a used EV?


Yes, for certain models.

October 22, 2022








15 Used EVs that Qualify for the Electric Vehicle Tax Credit - LeafScore


The passing of the Inflation Reduction Act means that anyone looking for a used EV is in luck. For the…




www.leafscore.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Yes, for certain models.
> 
> October 22, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 15 Used EVs that Qualify for the Electric Vehicle Tax Credit - LeafScore
> 
> 
> The passing of the Inflation Reduction Act means that anyone looking for a used EV is in luck. For the…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.leafscore.com


More here.
_"Other restrictions include that t*he vehicle must be purchased from a licensed dealer* for personal use, and each vehicle can only qualify for this credit once. The credit may be applied at time of sale by the dealer, which can be a great benefit for shoppers with tight budgets."_

Better get to work Camp. It starts after New Year’s eve this year.








Used EV Tax Credit: Everything You Need to Know


Recurrent is all about EVs, and especially used EVs. We’ve been very excited supporters of the upcoming Used EV Tax Credit that was announced as part of the Inflation Reduction Act and we’re helping to guide shoppers with everything they need to know.




www.recurrentauto.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> More here.
> _"Other restrictions include that t*he vehicle must be purchased from a licensed dealer* for personal use, and each vehicle can only qualify for this credit once. The credit may be applied at time of sale by the dealer, which can be a great benefit for shoppers with tight budgets."_
> 
> Better get to work Camp. It starts after New Year’s eve this year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Used EV Tax Credit: Everything You Need to Know
> 
> 
> Recurrent is all about EVs, and especially used EVs. We’ve been very excited supporters of the upcoming Used EV Tax Credit that was announced as part of the Inflation Reduction Act and we’re helping to guide shoppers with everything they need to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.recurrentauto.com


Can only qualify for the credit once yet they collect sales tax every single time is sold.

Go figure


----------



## MC2

x10003q said:


> I will pay more attention to EVs when a manufacturer provides a sedan like the Honda Accord/Toy Camry/Chevy Malibu/Hyundai Sonata class in the 25k-35k price range and size. The Tesla 3 is a class smaller than these and starts just under $50k.


My dad has one of these & gets 143 mpg:

https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+Honda+Clarity+Plug-In+Hybrid


----------



## Campgottagopee

MC2 said:


> My dad has one of these & gets 143 mpg:
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+Honda+Clarity+Plug-In+Hybrid


Plug in hybrid is different than EV
I believe X was talking about EV's


----------



## x10003q

DomB said:


> Isn't this the Chevy Bolt, or is that too small? I guess that is more of a civic or fit class. But it is 27.5 before rebate which I think could come down as much as 10k (?) under the new rules.


The Bolt is a decent choice and price although it only comes FWD. The question is why not figure out how to stick a sedan/Malibu size and style body or an Equinox type SUV on the Bolt chassis? The Bolt is 164 inches - about the size of a VW Golf. The car companies probably did all kinds of research to figure out the Bolt type would be the best thing to start with when rolling out EVs. Now that EVs are selling, how about some conventional looking vehicles and sizes - like Tesla but with out the insane price point.

For us, these EVs are too small and too odd looking.


----------



## x10003q

MC2 said:


> My dad has one of these & gets 143 mpg:
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+Honda+Clarity+Plug-In+Hybrid


This the idea, but, for some reason, Honda hit it with the ugly stick. The current Accord is a nice looking car to me and a lot of other people. Again, why not just drop the Accord on the Clarity chassis? Ford was sort of headed that way with the Fusion, but then they dumped sedans.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Can only qualify for the credit once yet they collect sales tax every single time is sold.
> 
> Go figure


Yeah what the f is that all about. Is there a way to get around that?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Yeah what the f is that all about. Is there a way to get around that?


Not that's legal
Dumbest thing ever! It doesn't even make any sense. NYS are crooks. LOL


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Can only qualify for the credit once yet they collect sales tax every single time is sold.
> 
> Go figure


Since The Inflation Reduction Act mandates ya gotta buy a used EV from a dealer to get the used EV kickback, seems that makes for more vehicle transfers (ie sales) hence more sales tax collected. Everybody winz.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Not that's legal
> Dumbest thing ever! It doesn't even make any sense. NYS are crooks. LOL


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Since The Inflation Reduction Act mandates ya gotta buy a used EV from a dealer to get the used EV kickback, seems that makes for more vehicle transfers (ie sales) hence more sales tax collected. Everybody winz.


Doesn't matter if it's an EV or ICE
NYS collects sales tax every time a car is sold. Every time. The only one who wins is NYS.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> NYS collects sales tax every time a car is sold. Every time. The only one who wins is NYS.


Also roads. Also schools. Also hospitals. 

mm


----------



## MarzNC

MC2 said:


> My dad has one of these & gets 143 mpg:
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+Honda+Clarity+Plug-In+Hybrid


Not quite sure what "143 mpg" means.

What happens with my RAV4 Prime PHEV is that if I'm at home and mostly driving in EV mode, then the car's calculation for HV "mpg" keeps going up until it reaches 99.9. When I drive all HV miles after resetting MPG, then it's about 38 mpg at highway speeds. Have done that a few times in the last couple years, usually for 400-500 miles the day I make it home.

When new, a RAV4 Prime thinks it gets about 1.3 m/KwH. I paid more attention after picking up the second one in August. After about 2000 miles, including the 700 miles driving from central NY to central NC and then staying home for a while, it was at 2.7 m/KwH. My daughter is driving the 2021 RAV4 Prime (bought Nov 2020) to commute to work, essentially all EV miles for the last few months. That's showing 3.2 m/KwH since she reset it after we got back from NY with the 2022 RAV4 Prime.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> Also roads. Also schools. Also hospitals.
> 
> mm


Huh? 
What am. I missing?


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Huh?
> What am. I missing?


He’s saying sales taxes pay for them.
Remember the Soggy Sweat Whiskey Speech Grisham reminisced about when booze was controversial still in the south.


----------



## MC2

MarzNC said:


> Not quite sure what "143 mpg" means.
> .


It means he fills up, resets the trip odometer, plugs it in at night, waits until he fills up again, sees how many gallons he put in, then calculates how many miles he drove per gallon.

I know it’s wild to not have a computer do calculations, but that’s how everyone used to calculate mpg.


----------



## Tjf1967

MC2 said:


> It means he fills up, resets the trip odometer, plugs it in at night, waits until he fills up again, sees how many gallons he put in, then calculates how many miles he drove per gallon.
> 
> I know it’s wild to not have a computer do calculations, but that’s how everyone used to calculate mpg.


How much did his electric bill go up?


----------



## MC2

Tjf1967 said:


> How much did his electric bill go up?


Not sure.


----------



## MarzNC

MC2 said:


> It means he fills up, resets the trip odometer, plugs it in at night, waits until he fills up again, sees how many gallons he put in, then calculates how many miles he drove per gallon.
> 
> I know it’s wild to not have a computer do calculations, but that’s how everyone used to calculate mpg.


Okay. That makes sense.

My father logged every gas station stop. My brother did the same when he got a car. He calculates more stats than my father did (he's a physicist). I logged gas when I got a car. My brother's daughter has been doing it for a decade, although she's not quite sure why.  

I logged almost every charge session for the first RAV4 Prime. Keep a log of gas on separate pages of the little notebook. Now logging for the new RAV4 Prime. My daughter is only logging gas for the first RAV4 Prime. With over 40,000 miles and commuting daily, not going to learn much more by logging charge sessions.


----------



## Harvey

How much did you spend for gas and electric to drive 40k? What does it work out to mpg-wise?

Everything I've read indicates a mile driven on electric is about half the cost vs ice.

My dad wrote all the stuff down too. It was the 70s.

On my CRV I did the math on my first two tanks and it matched the digital within 1/10th of an mpg. Now I just accept the digital as reality.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> How much did you spend for gas and electric to drive 40k? What does it work out to mpg-wise?


Sorry, not going through the notebook to add everything up that I've written down for almost 2 years. My very rough guesstimate is that I've driven 10K EV miles and the other 30K were for trips that were at least 250 miles one-way. Included driving 1900 miles to Colorado last December. Not exactly typical usage.

What I'm more clear about is that when I'm home for a month straight, I usually only need about half a tank of gas. Meaning 7-8 gallons. I drive 2-4 times a week. Most of the time I come home with EV miles left.

My daughter is commuting about 15 miles 1-way for her job. With 42-45 miles EV range, she doesn't need to use any gas assuming all she does is go to work and back home.

When we were considering a PHEV, the SUVs with only 20 miles EV range didn't make sense to me. For our situation, 40 miles has worked out well. For my husband, the $7500 tax credit made a significant difference. Otherwise we might have gotten a RAV4 Hybrid in 2020 closer to home instead of waiting several months for a RAV4 Prime that required driving to NY to buy it.


----------



## Tjf1967

How much did your electric bill go up? Rough guess


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Sorry, not going through the notebook to add everything up that I've written down for almost 2 years.


I wasn't asking for that. Just a ballpark for what it costs to charge and how far you can drive on that. If that's not possible without going through 2 years of notebook I get it.


----------



## MarzNC

Tjf1967 said:


> How much did your electric bill go up? Rough guess


Couldn't even begin to guess. My husband is the one who cares about what we pay for electricity. Plus it's become a moot point since we installed three banks of solar panels this summer as part of putting on a new roof. Insurance paid for most of the roof due to storm damage in recent years. He found a company that could do the roof (unusual material) and solar panels at the same time. Living in the southeast, our bill has always been higher in the summer months than in the winter. We have a large house with two heat pumps.



Harvey said:


> Just a ballpark for what it costs to charge and how far you can drive on that.



Remember I have a PHEV that is only driven a few times a week as a BEV. Quite different from a BEV such as a Chevy Bolt, or Tesla Model Y with range of 250 miles or more. I can charge up fully overnight on household current and that's about all I do. I don't think about the cost any more than when I'm charging my cell phone.

A old friend of my husband's is visiting us from Texas this week. He's on his second Tesla. Moved up to the Model Y in 2022 from a Model 3. To fully charge on 120V takes a few days. To fully charge on 240V takes a few hours. That's why installing a Tesla fast charger with solar panels at home makes a big difference. His trip from Texas included driving straight to Washington DC in three days to start with. He'll head to Florida to visit another old friend after he leaves NC. He's a bachelor who only has one car and naturally frugal but willing to pay for quality over low price when fixing stuff around the house.

August 18, 2021








						Edmunds: How to calculate an electric vehicle's charge costs
					

One of the challenges people have with electric vehicles is figuring out how much they cost to operate. The price of fully charging an electric vehicle’s battery can vary wildly depending on when and where you charge it.




					apnews.com


----------



## MarzNC

When I was at the Carrboro (next to Chapel Hill) EV Rodeo as part of the display of PHEVs, BEVs, and Hybrids, a retired couple stopped by and asked a few questions. Wife was very interested but apprehensive about range on long trips. Even though I'd already said the RAV4 Prime was a Plug-in Hybrid and I didn't even carry a charging cable on long trips, she still asked if I had trouble finding a place to charge when away from home. She was clearly just starting to learn about the possibilities of having EV power in addition to a gas engine. Husband just wanted to go see the Teslas.

I've charged away from home at three places (Aug-Oct 2022). Two were when I was staying in a private home using an outdoor outlet. The only time I've charged on a public Level 2 charger was at a motel in SC that had a two free chargers for guests. They were apparently installed with money from the state as part of encouraging tourism. The motel was in a small town right next to I-95, an hour from Savannah and 90 min from Charleston. We topped up the traction battery while we ate the free breakfast just for fun.


----------



## Ripitz

Here they come.








						Are microcars the smaller, greener future of urban driving? — CNN
					

Cities around the world are taking steps to clear their streets of cars. Clean, small and slow, microcars could fill the gap.




					apple.news


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Here they come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are microcars the smaller, greener future of urban driving? — CNN
> 
> 
> Cities around the world are taking steps to clear their streets of cars. Clean, small and slow, microcars could fill the gap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news


Shit, just get some mirrors, lights, airbags, some weatherization on an electric golf cart and put a plate onit.
The government kickback money could pay for a lot of the above. 
There may even be some leftover funds for greens fees.


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> How much did your electric bill go up? Rough guess


You TJ it looks like if you order the truck now you might get it before I get the SUV. They delayed me again : (


----------



## Brownski

Hey Don, I saw another S on the way home fro VA today. Don’t give up


----------



## Tjf1967

DomB said:


> You TJ it looks like if you order the truck now you might get it before I get the SUV. They delayed me again : (


Mine better not come in for another year..I have a plan. Rivn having some growing pains right now.


----------



## MarzNC

Rivian tested the R1T in up to 3 feet of water. The other two videos are more fun.


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> Mine better not come in for another year..I have a plan. Rivn having some growing pains right now.


Well this wasn't encouraging. One benefit of my continual delays. Right now, Rivian is delivering trucks without the power Tonneau until they get a redesign figured out. 









Experienced Winter Ice Buildup Issues


We had minor ice buildup and 29 deg F. Luckily I keep my door unlocked or I would not have been able to get in. The tonneau cover had opened on its own, may ice pressuse, so bed had snow. Neither pass through would open, both unlatached, opened 1/2" at top. no ice around them. I could get my...




www.rivianforums.com


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> Well this wasn't encouraging. One benefit of my continual delays. Right now, Rivian is delivering trucks without the power Tonneau until they get a redesign figured out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experienced Winter Ice Buildup Issues
> 
> 
> We had minor ice buildup and 29 deg F. Luckily I keep my door unlocked or I would not have been able to get in. The tonneau cover had opened on its own, may ice pressuse, so bed had snow. Neither pass through would open, both unlatached, opened 1/2" at top. no ice around them. I could get my...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com


The power cover was the one feature that more than one reviewer pointed out as a potential future issue.

October 26, 2022








Rivian R1T's Troubled Power Tonneau Is Gone—at Least for Now


Rivian has announced it is removing the powered tonneau cover for the R1T and will replace it with an upgraded version.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> The power cover was the one feature that more than one reviewer pointed out as a potential future issue.
> 
> October 26, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rivian R1T's Troubled Power Tonneau Is Gone—at Least for Now
> 
> 
> Rivian has announced it is removing the powered tonneau cover for the R1T and will replace it with an upgraded version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.caranddriver.com


Yep. Sorry I wasn't clear about the 'it'. - I meant the concerns folks had about driving in icy conditions. The tonneau was meant to be an afterthought but was poorly written to read as the focus. Meant to focus on the ice issue.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> I meant the concerns folks had about driving in icy conditions. The tonneau was meant to be an afterthought but was poorly written to read as the focus. Meant to focus on the ice issue.


Where are people reporting issues when driving in icy conditions?

I've seen two Rivian R1Ts near my house so far. One was green and the other was more of a silver grey.


----------



## DomB

I go to Rivianforums and occaisionally hit 'what's new'. With onset of winter conditions, these things are popping up: 









Undriveable at night in wet snow due to LED headlights not melting snow & ice


👍 I agree. This would be far from optimal, but could be a blessing in a pinch IF it works. It sure would beat getting out of the car ever 3 miles on a two lane road with no shoulder in the dark to scrape headlights 🥶. I keep a lot of preps in my truck at all times, including a small can of WD40...




www.rivianforums.com













Experienced Winter Ice Buildup Issues


Are you saying the tonneau cover retracts anytime you unlock the truck? Because I thought the OP was saying he always leaves the truck unlocked at the farm but for some reason the cover opened overnight without pressing the button. I think he’s wanting to know if anyone else has had the cover...




www.rivianforums.com













Driving on wet roads in conserve mode


My Bolt had the same deal wearing out tires faster. Especially in an EV where you're making the front tires do all the work under braking conditions. It's simple physics that if you don't have your tires rotated, the ones doing the work are going to wear out faster. I really honestly don't...




www.rivianforums.com





Don't get me wrong, still a big fan.


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> Don't get me wrong, still a big fan.


Understood.

For the headlights, I only drove my old minivan in New England in snowy conditions when it was dark enough for lights to make a difference a few times. Is the issue really different for a Rivian compared to other cars with new fangled bulbs?


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> Understood.
> 
> For the headlights, I only drove my old minivan in New England in snowy conditions when it was dark enough for lights to make a difference a few times. Is the issue really different for a Rivian compared to other cars with new fangled bulbs?


I don't know, that is the issue, honestly this is really the first winter with the vehicles in the hands of company 'outsiders'. We'll see. 

If it is an issue, i be some kind spray helps. We'll see!


----------



## DomB

And this - it seems like they haven't gotten the all purpose mode regen in a good spot for downhill in snow. However, apparently 'Sand mode' works really well in that situation. Makes sense as that mode cuts regen braking, and that seems to be the culprit. 

Snow driving discussion








Driving in Snow


Hey all, so same issue here on steep descents in snow, running 20" ATs (which by the way have a 3-Peak snow rating, which is pretty good in general). First snow dump of the year, on a steep descent from our house on a gravel road, in All-Purpose mode, high-regen, the truck rear end slips out...




www.rivianforums.com


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> And this - it seems like they haven't gotten the all purpose mode regen in a good spot for downhill in snow. However, apparently 'Sand mode' works really well in that situation. Makes sense as that mode cuts regen braking, and that seems to be the culprit.
> 
> Snow driving discussion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Driving in Snow
> 
> 
> Hey all, so same issue here on steep descents in snow, running 20" ATs (which by the way have a 3-Peak snow rating, which is pretty good in general). First snow dump of the year, on a steep descent from our house on a gravel road, in All-Purpose mode, high-regen, the truck rear end slips out...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com


Now that you say that, I seem to remember the Out Of Spec guy making a comment related to driving on snow during an early video about the R1T. Don't remember the details.


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> Now that you say that, I seem to remember the Out Of Spec guy making a comment related to driving on snow during an early video about the R1T. Don't remember the details.


Correct - it seemed like a similar issue - the regen braking causes skid. 

Someone took a suv and truck out on 22 and 20 (20 is the AT). It seems clear a software fix could address. Have not reviewed but video worth checking out. 20 better. 









Snow Mode Needed! - My first snow drives in R1S and R1T


Hi all, I did a couple of videos yesterday here in Denver on some pretty slippery roads. I was surprised (as were others) that it didn't perform as well as I expected. At one point, the SUV slid down into the gutter (no damage) just because I was stopped on a sloped road. Not great. This was on...




www.rivianforums.com


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> Correct - it seemed like a similar issue - the regen braking causes skid.


Engineers can’t figure out anti-lock-regen braking?
We’ve placed robots on Mars recently and folks on the moon over 50 years ago for crying out loud.


----------



## Ripitz

DomB said:


> I go to Rivianforums and occaisionally hit 'what's new'. With onset of winter conditions, these things are popping up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Undriveable at night in wet snow due to LED headlights not melting snow & ice
> 
> 
> 👍 I agree. This would be far from optimal, but could be a blessing in a pinch IF it works. It sure would beat getting out of the car ever 3 miles on a two lane road with no shoulder in the dark to scrape headlights 🥶. I keep a lot of preps in my truck at all times, including a small can of WD40...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experienced Winter Ice Buildup Issues
> 
> 
> Are you saying the tonneau cover retracts anytime you unlock the truck? Because I thought the OP was saying he always leaves the truck unlocked at the farm but for some reason the cover opened overnight without pressing the button. I think he’s wanting to know if anyone else has had the cover...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Driving on wet roads in conserve mode
> 
> 
> My Bolt had the same deal wearing out tires faster. Especially in an EV where you're making the front tires do all the work under braking conditions. It's simple physics that if you don't have your tires rotated, the ones doing the work are going to wear out faster. I really honestly don't...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rivianforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, still a big fan.


Ha ha, @DomB giving NYSkiBlog a shoutout in the Rivian forums. Nice!


----------



## DomB

Ripitz said:


> Ha ha, @DomB giving NYSkiBlog a shoutout in the Rivian forums. Nice!


Yeah man, unpaid promotion! I think my ski shop manager will be hitting up the blog for the first time tonight and checking into ski 3 pass. They were shocked that WF will have 3000 of vert open!


----------



## Harvey

A game-changing new hybrid EV battery recharges in only 72 seconds


The new technology could massively boost small city EV and ebike adoption by drastically cutting recharge times and boosting longevity.




interestingengineering.com


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Love my electric utility Club Car and ebike.
> 
> The technology is definitely there to make affordable electric vehicles for most peoples needs. The reason why it hasn’t taken off yet has to do with safety laws and cultural acceptance. The micro-mobility sector is about to explode.


Seems this model may explode.








E-Bikes Recalled Due to Fire, Explosion and Burn Hazards; Distributed by Ancheer


Consumers should stop using the recalled e-bikes immediately and contact Ancheer for a free replacement battery and battery mount.




www.cpsc.gov


----------



## tirolski

Seems ya can win a trip for four to Jackson Hole if ya come up with the name for the new electric Jeep.








Jeep Needs Fans' Help To Name Its 2024 Wagoneer S Electric SUV


Jeep will start taking reservations from US customers for the Wagoneer S EV in early 2023, with production to start in 2024 in North America.




insideevs.com




Bringatrailer-witha-chargeronit is catchy.


----------



## jasonwx

tirolski said:


> Seems ya can win a trip for four to Jackson Hole if ya come up with the name for the new electric Jeep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeep Needs Fans' Help To Name Its 2024 Wagoneer S Electric SUV
> 
> 
> Jeep will start taking reservations from US customers for the Wagoneer S EV in early 2023, with production to start in 2024 in North America.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insideevs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bringatrailer-witha-chargeronit is catchy.


Short circuit sxl


----------



## Milo Maltbie

DomB said:


> ...the regen braking causes skid.


I expected starting traction would be a problem with high torque electric motors. That seems like a difficult control problem to me. I'm surprised that regenerative braking causes problems. Maybe the control isssue is complicated be the interaction with the mechanical brakes, or maybe they just overlooked the usefulness of a snow mode like every other car company. 

mm


----------



## Brownski

Milo Maltbie said:


> maybe they just overlooked the usefulness of a snow mode like every other car company.


I think this is it. Isn’t the whole idea of electric motors that torque can be dialed in perfectly for whatever you’re doing? Seems like it’s just a colossal oversight.


----------



## Tjf1967

And a pretty easy fix


----------



## DomB

tirolski said:


> Engineers can’t figure out anti-lock-regen braking?
> We’ve placed robots on Mars recently and folks on the moon over 50 years ago for crying out loud.


Sorry - i missed this. I think the short answer is they can through software. I think I read someone used Sand mode and that helped (which makes sense Sand mode lets the wheels spin more and presumably means they don't regen brake as much. 

I partially think the issue is that alot of the software engineers are in (I think) moderate climate California. It could be they just have not pushed out a fix yet or want more data. If they want more data that would line up with the fact that there have been a disproportionate proportion of deliveries in the Denver area.


----------



## DomB

Milo Maltbie said:


> I expected starting traction would be a problem with high torque electric motors. That seems like a difficult control problem to me. I'm surprised that regenerative braking causes problems. Maybe the control isssue is complicated be the interaction with the mechanical brakes, or maybe they just overlooked the usefulness of a snow mode like every other car company.
> 
> mm


Good point. See the note on Sand mode (which through software gives less instant torque for a similar physical issue [I think as a non scientist but took up to Calc 2 in HS though I am sure it was watered down). For that mode, they have the starting and stopping spin rate (turning force/torque) lower so you don't dig yourself under soft sand when starting and stopping. 

However, you will take a big range hit as regen is important to range.


----------



## Ripitz

Yeah, just download the new app before you hit the snowbank. No biggy.


----------



## Brownski

I guess everything degrades range. The article about the guys driving with no heat, radio or nav in the dead of winter last year was pretty funny.


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> I guess everything degrades range. The article about the guys driving with no heat, radio or nav in the dead of winter last year was pretty funny.


Yeah there is a youtuber who reviews gas and ICE and he does a standard range test in relatively practical conditions- 70 ac or heat, depending on temp outside to be comfortable, 70 mph to simulate somewhat normal hwy speeds (yes most go faster at times including me) etc. It is Kyle from out of spec. 

He did one test at somewhat lower temps (around 31 I think) and Riv did pretty good. Obviously the real issue is when you 'cold soak' the battery overnight.


----------



## x10003q

Milo Maltbie said:


> I expected starting traction would be a problem with high torque electric motors. That seems like a difficult control problem to me. I'm surprised that regenerative braking causes problems. Maybe the control isssue is complicated be the interaction with the mechanical brakes, or maybe they just overlooked the usefulness of a snow mode like every other car company.
> 
> mm


Another issue with regenerative bakes on a Tesla is the rear brake lights do not go on to signal braking.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Yeah, just download the new app before you hit the snowbank. No biggy.


Right, for about 15k? LOL


----------



## Milo Maltbie

You should be able to modulate regenerative braking well enough for winter driving. Maybe you dial the gain back a little but that shouldn’t affect range too much, especially for highway driving where range anxiety is a thing. 

I once drove a heavy truck with an automatic that had 2 brake pedals. One was brakes and the other was a transmission brake. Something like that might work well in an EV but good luck getting DOT to allow it. 

mm


----------



## Ripitz

Milo Maltbie said:


> One was brakes and the other was a transmission brake. Something like that might work well in an EV


Our Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has paddles on the steering wheel for five different levels of regenerative braking. The brake lights go on too when you use it.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Ripitz said:


> Our Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has paddles on the steering wheel for five different levels of regenerative braking. The brake lights go on too when you use it.


That sounds like a good solution.

I also thought some more about 2 brake pedals. If you had a left foot pedal for hydraulic brakes only, you could not only prevent the regenerative brakes from crashing you, you could use it to limit wheelspin on start up. I used to drive my VW Rabbit full throttle with my left foot on the brakes, Erik Carlson style. That was a lot of fun but modern cars have too much electronic control for that stuff.

mm


----------



## Ripitz

Yikes, these thingys are about to be battle tested. 🍻 Maybe cheaper, would have less thermal detection and could be made autonomous? 🤔








Canoo Electric Pickup Is in the Army Now


After being awarded a U.S. Army contract in July, Canoo has outfitted one of its electric pickup trucks for military duty and sent it to the army for analysis.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## DomB

Wow. They seemed like they would not be one of the survivors of the EV wars. A military budget will help . . . .


----------



## Brownski

I wouldn’t put too much stock in it. The military tries out all kinds of stuff. They are probably buying one of everything just to gauge what’s possible and define requirements for a future program


----------



## Harvey

You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars


Sorry, that meme you just retweeted isn't correct.




www.motortrend.com





Long and a bit exhausting, but article claims that it takes about 2 years of driving for an ev to start to have less co2 impact vs an ice.

Author is talking about the break even point on co2, not $$.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars
> 
> 
> Sorry, that meme you just retweeted isn't correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motortrend.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Long and a bit exhausting, but article claims that it takes about 2 years of driving for an ev to start to have less co2 impact vs an ice.


Thanks for sharing. Have noted this for a while - short term it is true EVs are less green when you take into mfg process. The numbers I have seen is about 18,000 miles, the EV makes up the gap. Then, unless you live in a dirty electricity generating state (i.e. West Virginia) the EV has much lower - to nearly 0 emission tied to it. For example, Vermont's energy is ridiculously clean and New York's is surprisingly clean. 

The next knock on EVs is that what do you do when the battery is not good enough for EV use. The answers are (a) that is a long time (lots of stories of tesla batteries with 1m miles - find an ICE consumer car with that) and (b) there is second life (and third) recycling, like battery storage for solar. 

The next knock is cost, which is pretty valid, though now there can be subsidies for up to 12,500 for labor, American made batteries (I think but unclear).

The next knock is range anxiety, which might be valid for backcountry or offroading, but there are pretty rugged trails that you can be on with access to charging. 

The next knock is cold weather range hit, up to 25-33 percent, which seems valid now. 

I am sure there are more.


----------



## Harvey

DomB said:


> Thanks for sharing. Have noted this for a while - short term it is true EVs are less green when you take into mfg process. The numbers I have seen is about 18,000 miles, the EV makes up the gap. Then, unless you live in a dirty electricity generating state (i.e. West Virginia) the EV has much lower - to nearly 0 emission tied to it. For example, Vermont's energy is ridiculously clean and New York's is surprisingly clean.
> 
> The next knock on EVs is that what do you do when the battery is not good enough for EV use. The answers are (a) that is a long time (lots of stories of tesla batteries with 1m miles - find an ICE consumer car with that) and (b) there is second life (and third) recycling, like battery storage for solar.
> 
> The next knock is cost, which is pretty valid, though now there can be subsidies for up to 12,500 for labor, American made batteries (I think but unclear).
> 
> The next knock is range anxiety, which might be valid for backcountry or offroading, but there are pretty rugged trails that you can be on with access to charging.
> 
> The next knock is cold weather range hit, up to 25-33 percent, which seems valid now.
> 
> I am sure there are more.


To me hybrid solves a lot of it.

Smaller batteries so less mfg impact
Uses less gas than other cars with no range anxiety

I hope what he said about battery production getting "better" is true, I'll believe it when I see it. I certainly think it can improve, but are we seeing it yet?

Mining of minerals in china, is a big issue. If everyone switched to EVs they would have a ton of leverage.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> To me hybrid solves a lot of it.


IMO, this ^^^^ should be our concentration. Total EV, right now, still feels like a square peg in a round hole idea.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> To me hybrid solves a lot of it.
> 
> Smaller batteries so less mfg impact
> Uses less gas than other cars with no range anxiety
> 
> I hope what he said about battery production getting "better" is true, I'll believe it when I see it. I certainly think it can improve, but are we seeing it yet?
> 
> Mining of minerals in china, is a big issue. If everyone switched to EVs they would have a ton of leverage.


For me it comes down to the Rivian or the Highlander Hybrid midline model. I am in a unique situation because while I will never actually get the vehicle (joke), net the Rivian nearly fully loaded is like net 7-12,000 with tax benefit and old price more than the Highlander hybrid. 

When you consider the performance difference, cargo capacity, offroad performance, software upgrades, supercar like performance on 0-60, hard for me to take the 600 miles of range over the 290 on the All Terrains. 

Now there is a bigger price gap because of price increase, Highlander makes more sense. . . . 

Hard for me to turn down an EV that can do what R1s can do (including offroad and beating many supercars on the Track up to limiter of 120) for the range and relatively small price differential.

That said, by Rivian's current guide estimate, my order will be 4 years old by the time it is filled. The good news is that has been an additional 4 years of no car payment.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> To me hybrid solves a lot of it.


The other benefit of this is cost. Manufactures can produce a product for mere mortals and not only cater to the wealthy.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Mining of minerals in china, is a big issue. If everyone switched to EVs they would have a ton of leverage.


Big issue. And unexpected political changes could cause supply problems here too. 


Campgottagopee said:


> IMO, this ^^^^ should be our concentration. Total EV, right now, still feels like a square peg in a round hole idea.


I agree. I don’t think we’re anywhere near maxing out what’s possible with gas/electric


----------



## Harvey

I actually think the people who can, or want to afford an EV, are serving a real function.

Google works that way. They roll out stuff that is not ready for prime time, and they get a ton of info from the early adapters. I'm not that person but I'm glad he exists. @DomB


----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> The other benefit of this is cost. Manufactures can produce a product for mere mortals and not only cater to the wealthy.


For the record, I had an extremely negative net worth coming out of my last set of schooling; I paid for all university (including doing undergrad in 3 years) and on myself or financed it; though somehow my parents put me through (relatively) affordable catholic schools K-12 on their income. I'll spare you the details : ) 

And there are hacks. I have not done the precise math but I think my price on the R1s is within spitting distance of a fully loaded Highlander Hybrid. I imagine plenty of folks are driving those who are not wealthy.

I know you're not picking on me but I felt a bit defensive about this one.


----------



## DomB

Harvey said:


> I actually think the people who can, or want to afford an EV, are serving a real function.
> 
> Google works that way. They roll out stuff that is not ready for prime time, and they get a ton of info from the early adapters. I'm not that person but I'm glad he exists. @DomB


This is true. 

All the Rivian people are beta testers. I am actually a little lucky because my specific delay is tied to white interior, but that means there will be several thousand more beta testers between me and the vehicle.


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Big issue. And unexpected political changes could cause supply problems here too.



This is pretty much what I said or was trying to say.



Brownski said:


> I agree. I don’t think we’re anywhere near maxing out what’s possible with gas/electric



I hope they don't abandon it too. 

I hope that there is a hybrid tacoma model in the future, built for mpg and ride, not towing power or plowing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DomB said:


> I know you're not picking on me


I definitely wasn't picking on you.
I'm super curious to follow both your and TJ's journey with these Rivians.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> I definitely wasn't picking on you.
> I'm super curious to follow both your and TJ's journey with these Rivians.


I am too. I am also glad I am on the wait list. There are bugs... And they know they have to get it right so they going after the problems. I do believe rivian is going to be one of the survivors in the e car race. Heck I put my money where my mouth is and am getting ready for seconds. Some articles I read make me nervous, overall I'm 80% confident im going to come out smelling like a rose. Make a plan follow the plan. That's my story. You know I have been looking at these things since 2012. It's time.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> You know I have been looking at these things since 2012


You were, without a doubt, one of the first to tell me you were going to get one. I thought you were crazy then and I still think you are now!! LOL


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I hope that there is a hybrid tacoma model in the future


You may find it to be a hydrogen internal combustion engine powered Tacoma. Toyota is in deep exploring/testing the hydrogen motors.








Toyota unveils hydrogen-powered Corolla Cross concept


The Toyota Corolla Cross H2 concept has been created to showcase that hydrogen-combustion tech can carry five passengers and their luggage.




www.carexpert.com.au





Automotive News has a great article regarding this but you have to have a subscription to read it.


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> You may find it to be a hydrogen internal combustion engine powered Tacoma. Toyota is in deep exploring/testing the hydrogen motors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toyota unveils hydrogen-powered Corolla Cross concept
> 
> 
> The Toyota Corolla Cross H2 concept has been created to showcase that hydrogen-combustion tech can carry five passengers and their luggage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.carexpert.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Automotive News has a great article regarding this but you have to have a subscription to read it.


PLUG!!!


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> To me hybrid solves a lot of it.


Hybrids are not the answer. It just doubles the complexity of the vehicle and the infrastructure to support it, while limiting the environmental benefits. The real goal now is to electrify everything. Hybrids just get in the way of electrifying transportation. IT's like beta vs VHS. Sometimes the second best becomes dominant because it arrives before the perfect solution.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

DomB said:


> ...short term it is true EVs are less green when you take into mfg process. The numbers I have seen is about 18,000 miles, the EV makes up the gap. Then, unless you live in a dirty electricity generating state (i.e. West Virginia) the EV has much lower - to nearly 0 emission tied to it. For example, Vermont's energy is ridiculously clean and New York's is surprisingly clean.


You need to be skeptical about environmental issues. Whether or not EVs are less green to manufacture than RICE vehicles requires estimating the emissions related to manufacturing requires assumptions, such as the fuel mix of the electric system serving the manyfacturer. There are sthose who want to discredit EVs (and all environmental impovemets) for their own reasons, and some of the studies they commission include some sketchy assumptions. The real answer is EVs are part of transition to a low emission green energy economy, and manufacturing processes that are dirty today will be cleaned up in the future. That's the plan, whether it works or not is a different issue. 



DomB said:


> The next knock is cost, which is pretty valid...


That's what my Grampa said until Model Ts replaced Packards. The way to make the transition to EVs happen is to make everyone want one. You do that by making cars everyone wants, not by making electric Yugos. The cars everyone wants are always expensive.



DomB said:


> The next knock is range anxiety, which might be valid for backcountry or offroading, but there are pretty rugged trails that you can be on with access to charging.


That's mostly an infrastructure problem. It will go away when EVs reach a critical mass. Some day you'll give up your RICE vehicle because it's too hard to find somewhere to gas up.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> I wouldn’t put too much stock in it. The military tries out all kinds of stuff. They are probably buying one of everything just to gauge what’s possible and define requirements for a future program


Military tries all kinds of stuff, and a lot of it works. Computers, transistors, silicone chips, the internet all started in the military. They are also involved in small scale electric generation that can't be easily detected or knocked out. 

mm


----------



## Brownski

Milo Maltbie said:


> doubles the complexity of the vehicle and the infrastructure to support it,


That’s with current hybrids. A diesel electric (or gas or hydrogen) scaled down to run a Tacoma or f150 sized truck might be crazy efficient


Milo Maltbie said:


> The real goal now is to electrify everything.


What do you think about power generation? EVs aren’t really just electric. They’re powered by whatever generates the electricity.


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> my Grampa said .... Model Ts ... Packards.


If Milo is talking Model Ts you know this must be the EV thread!


----------



## Tjf1967

Milo Maltbie said:


> You need to be skeptical about environmental issues. Whether or not EVs are less green to manufacture than RICE vehicles requires estimating the emissions related to manufacturing requires assumptions, such as the fuel mix of the electric system serving the manyfacturer. There are sthose who want to discredit EVs (and all environmental impovemets) for their own reasons, and some of the studies they commission include some sketchy assumptions. The real answer is EVs are part of transition to a low emission green energy economy, and manufacturing processes that are dirty today will be cleaned up in the future. That's the plan, whether it works or not is a different issue.
> 
> 
> That's what my Grampa said until Model Ts replaced Packards. The way to make the transition to EVs happen is to make everyone want one. You do that by making cars everyone wants, not by making electric Yugos. The cars everyone wants are always expensive.
> 
> 
> That's mostly an infrastructure problem. It will go away when EVs reach a critical mass. Some day you'll give up your RICE vehicle because it's too hard to find somewhere to gas up.
> 
> mm


It's it me or have you changed your tune in the past couple of years? Seems I remember you disparaging ev a couple of years ago.


----------



## Tjf1967

I have 850 reasons I want the rivian truck.


----------



## Ripitz

Milo Maltbie said:


> That's what my Grampa said until Model Ts replaced Packards.


Range and price. It’s also why ICE vehicles replaced EVs originally. They had them back then too.








Before Tesla: Why everyone wanted an electric car in 1905


Electric cars might seem like the vehicles of the future, but they are actually a status symbol of the past.




archive.curbed.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Range and price. It’s also why ICE vehicles replaced EVs originally. They had them back then too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before Tesla: Why everyone wanted an electric car in 1905
> 
> 
> Electric cars might seem like the vehicles of the future, but they are actually a status symbol of the past.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archive.curbed.com


I've mentioned this before. Here in our little town Solergan was attempting to make electric cars in the 70's. They took over the original Brockway factory here in town. Apparently some still exist.









eBay Find of the Day: 1980 AMC Hornet electric car - Autoblog


Click on the image for more shots of the Solargen Electric Hornet




www.autoblog.com


----------



## Brownski

I think Ed Bailey Jr still has a Saturn EV-1


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I've mentioned this before. Here in our little town Solergan was attempting to make electric cars in the 70's. They took over the original Brockway factory here in town. Apparently some still exist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eBay Find of the Day: 1980 AMC Hornet electric car - Autoblog
> 
> 
> Click on the image for more shots of the Solargen Electric Hornet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.autoblog.com


Don’t forget electric typewriters.
Gotta go faster.

"_In January 1955, Smith-Corona, Inc. was described as “a stalwart of Syracuse’s industrial economy for more than half a century, and one of the world’s foremost typewriter manufacturers, [which] employs 1,500 in Syracuse.” That same year, the company introduced an electric office typewriter. In October 1956, the company introduced a portable electric typewriter. This new portable weighed almost nineteen pounds and cost just under $200. The company marketed the portable electric typewriter to small businesses and home typists.:..._
"_To meet the demand for its portable typewriters, SCM broke ground in Cortland, NY in 1958 for a new typewriter manufacturing plant. Company officials expected an additional 600 employees to work at the new factory. At that time, SCM employed about 2,500 at its Groton and Cortland sites."_

Too much winning.








L.C. Smith & Brothers Typewriter Company Purchases Site for Syracuse Factory


L.C. Smith & Brothers Typewriter Company Purchases Site for Syracuse Factory



www.cnyhistory.org


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Brownski said:


> EVs aren’t really just electric. They’re powered by whatever generates the electricity.


But you can take the carbon out of the electric system. You can't take car on out of a RICE or hybrid vehicle.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Don’t forget electric typewriters.
> Gotta go faster.
> 
> "_In January 1955, Smith-Corona, Inc. was described as “a stalwart of Syracuse’s industrial economy for more than half a century, and one of the world’s foremost typewriter manufacturers, [which] employs 1,500 in Syracuse.” That same year, the company introduced an electric office typewriter. In October 1956, the company introduced a portable electric typewriter. This new portable weighed almost nineteen pounds and cost just under $200. The company marketed the portable electric typewriter to small businesses and home typists.:..._
> "_To meet the demand for its portable typewriters, SCM broke ground in Cortland, NY in 1958 for a new typewriter manufacturing plant. Company officials expected an additional 600 employees to work at the new factory. At that time, SCM employed about 2,500 at its Groton and Cortland sites."_
> 
> Too much winning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L.C. Smith & Brothers Typewriter Company Purchases Site for Syracuse Factory
> 
> 
> L.C. Smith & Brothers Typewriter Company Purchases Site for Syracuse Factory
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnyhistory.org


This town was booming back in those days. When SCM pulled up their stakes and went to Mexico, wow, what a shitshow that was. Peeps were not happy.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tjf1967 said:


> It's it me or have you changed your tune in the past couple of years? Seems I remember you disparaging ev a couple of years ago.


I don't think I've changed, but EVs have come a long way in the past few years. Also, maybe I'm more concerned about climate change now.
To be honest, I haven't liked any new car since about the year 2000. I haven't liked anything else either but I'm a cranky old man.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> To be honest, I haven't liked any new car since about the year 2000. I haven't liked anything else either but I'm a cranky old man.


You crack me up ✌️


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> This town was booming back in those days. When SCM pulled up their stakes and went to Mexico, wow, what a shitshow that was. Peeps were not happy.


Yup.
Folks now wanna make CNY into a farming-recreation-playground.
The Haudenausaunee didit first.


----------



## DomB

I LOVE THIS THREAD


----------



## Sbob

Rivian Odyssey .
Came across this guys channel , He's a hoot I love the honest commentary.


----------



## Harvey

I can't believe I watch that whole thing.

That guy is hilarious and loaded too.


----------



## tirolski

Sbob said:


> Rivian Odyssey .
> Came across this guys channel , He's a hoot I love the honest commentary.


Yup.
First time to watch his vids. Won’t be the last. Well done.








Rich Rebuilds at The Electrified Garage


Rich Benoit and his team repair Teslas at his Seabrook garage.




www.nhmagazine.com


----------



## Sbob

tirolski said:


> Yup.
> First time to watch his vids. Won’t be the last. Well done.


Love the Joe Rogan appearance!


----------



## jasonwx

Sbob said:


> Rivian Odyssey .
> Came across this guys channel , He's a hoot I love the honest commentary.


been watching rich for years..funny dude


----------



## Brownski

Sbob said:


> Rivian Odyssey .
> Came across this guys channel , He's a hoot I love the honest commentary.


I like that guy. And a guy from Massachusetts bitching about New Jersey is kind of funny


----------



## DomB

Rivian is frustrating, but things like this make it exciting - they are release a Snow Mode through software (just like they had release Sand mode a few months ago): https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/snow-mode-other-nice-upgrades-coming-in-rivian-software-update-2022-47-❄%EF%B8%8F.10785/.


----------



## DomB

But then there is this. This person did not have snow mode pushed to them but still. It looks like I may be in the market for snow tires if I ever get the R1s. 

I have actually met the person who posted this. Very nice guy. One of the earliest unaffiliated deliveries. Got his truck in March here on LI. 









Snow Mode where are you??


So I want to share a harrowing experience my wife Michelle Gorm had the yesterday while driving the Blue Wave home from upstate New York on snow covered roads with her sons also in the truck. She w...




s00n.rivianstories.com


----------



## tirolski

DomB said:


> But then there is this. This person did not have snow mode pushed to them but still. It looks like I may be in the market for snow tires if I ever get the R1s.


Can’t ya just push the hula girl button on the dash of that thing & put it in autonomous mode?


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> been watching rich for years..funny dude


Is he a dealer?
I'm curious as to how he has access to Manheim Auto Auction info.


----------



## Campgottagopee

If he is a dealer, I'm also curious as to why he didn't just use the buy-it-now feature and buy it for the $98,900?? 

Weird
Maybe he just wanted to whine about it --- lol


----------



## jasonwx

no sure about dealer..He is partners in a company called Electrify Garage..
he is very entertaining


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> .He is partners in a company called Electrify Garage..


Makes sense now
They have to have a dealers license to have access to that website.


----------



## DomB

New snow mode has been released. The car will apparently ping you to consider it if the weather is below 34 degrees and you are in Conserve (Fr WD) mode. Reduces break regeneration and softens throttle input, I think. 









Software Update: Snow mode - Rivian Stories


Our latest software update includes a new drive mode to help navigate wintery on-road conditions with confidence.




stories.rivian.com


----------



## MarzNC

DomB said:


> New snow mode has been released. The car will apparently ping you to consider it if the weather is below 34 degrees and you are in Conserve (Fr WD) mode. Reduces break regeneration and softens throttle input, I think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Software Update: Snow mode - Rivian Stories
> 
> 
> Our latest software update includes a new drive mode to help navigate wintery on-road conditions with confidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stories.rivian.com


Good to know that Rivian is actively putting out software updates.

I like the idea of the other new software feature designed for cold weather. Especially after just staying near Wolf Creek Ski Area in Colorado for a week. Morning temps when we left the rental house were under 15 most of the week. One day the high at WCSA was in single digits.

_"To complement Snow mode, we’re also introducing new options for warming up your R1 cabin before leaving on (or returning from) a wintery adventure. Drivers can now use their Rivian mobile app to remotely defrost or de-ice their windows and mirrors, as well as individually turn on seat and steering wheel heating."_


----------



## Brownski

I see a lot of Teslas around Westchester. They should make a station wagon version of their smaller model. Why don’t they?


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> I see a lot of Teslas around Westchester. They should make a station wagon version of their smaller model. Why don’t they?


Because, unfortunately, nobody buys station wagons. I happen to like them better than SUVs, but there are only a few choices at the moment and they are all luxury level $$$. Audi, MB, and Volvo make them. A few years ago Buick brought in the Regal Tour X and they had difficulty selling them. They were priced in the mid $30k range and the same length as the Audi/MB/Volvo lux models. Buick no longer sells cars, only SUV type vehicles.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Buick no longer sells cars


Buick is going all EV
I think you'll see a car in Buicks future
Can still get a wagon in a Subie


----------



## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> I see a lot of Teslas around Westchester. They should make a station wagon version of their smaller model. Why don’t they?


The model y is built on the same frame as the 3
Y is kind of suv ish


----------



## Brownski

jasonwx said:


> The model y is built on the same frame as the 3
> Y is kind of suv ish


I’ve seen it. I’m thinking something more like the old wagon versions of the BMW 325 or 328. It would sell, in my opinion.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Buick is going all EV
> I think you'll see a car in Buicks future
> Can still get a wagon in a Subie


Subaru Outback is not really a wagon anymore. You know better than me - but I remember a very cool non-lifted legacy wagon that is no longer sold.


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> I’ve seen it. I’m thinking something more like the old wagon versions of the BMW 325 or 328. It would sell, in my opinion.


Audi has the A4 allroad and for the last few years they have sold the A6 allroad. Those BMW 3 series wagons where nice.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Subaru Outback is not really a wagon anymore. You know better than me - but I remember a very cool non-lifted legacy wagon that is no longer sold.


What you say is true. That said, for my lifestyle and outback would work. The legacy wagon XT was a bad ass machine but I wouldn't want to take it through a cornfield.


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> I’ve seen it. I’m thinking something more like the old wagon versions of the BMW 325 or 328. It would sell, in my opinion.


My guess is efficiency/drag. Tesla shape is focused on aero for battery efficiency.


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> The model y is built on the same frame as the 3
> Y is kind of suv ish


When my husband's friend from Texas visited us in the fall driving his Model Y, it reminded me of a hatchback. He's a retired bachelor who does long distance drives to both coasts 2-3 times a year. Likes the extra space for stuff compared to the Model 3 he had before.


----------



## MarzNC

Noticed yesterday that the rest stops along the Indiana Turnpike has both Tesla chargers and another type of commercial charger. There were 8 Tesla chargers.

Also noticed plenty of the big wind farms near the Interstate in CO, NE, IA. There have been plenty in IN for quite a while, but I only started driving west of Chicago in 2021. Note that windmills can be placed on farmland that is still farmed.


----------



## Campgottagopee

We're seeing hybrids, not even full blown EV's coming in with inverter issues due to corrosion. It's a $6000 repair, the last one was within 2000 miles of being out of warranty. You can have them, well, pay for them. 
Long live ICE


----------



## Peter Minde

x10003q said:


> Subaru Outback is not really a wagon anymore. You know better than me - but I remember a very cool non-lifted legacy wagon that is no longer sold.


So much new material in this thread. Driving my VW Jetta shooting brake, I'm looking up at the current Outback, which sadly offers only CVT transmission. And VW no longer brings Golf / Jetta wagons into the US. Grrrr.


----------



## Peter Minde

Campgottagopee said:


> We're seeing hybrids, not even full blown EV's coming in with inverter issues due to corrosion. It's a $6000 repair, the last one was within 2000 miles of being out of warranty. You can have them, well, pay for them.
> Long live ICE


Finally. A vehicle repair that costs more than emissions equipment on my diesel VW.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> We're seeing hybrids, not even full blown EV's coming in with inverter issues due to corrosion. It's a $6000 repair, the last one was within 2000 miles of being out of warranty. You can have them, well, pay for them.
> Long live ICE


So buy the extended warranty when my Sienna finally comes in?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> So buy the extended warranty when my Sienna finally comes in?


If your intentions are to keep it past the manufactures warranty, yes.


----------



## Brownski

I usually do. I’m a 30k+ miles a year guy


----------



## Brownski

Oof- you may or may not like Joe Rogan but this is rough






On the other hand I spotted this bad boy out in the wild. Doesn’t Rivian manufacture these?


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> On the other hand I spotted this bad boy out in the wild. Doesn’t Rivian manufacture these?
> 
> View attachment 17075


Yes, the BEV Amazon vans in the USA are being made by Rivian. In late November, there will around 1000 in assorted cities making deliveries.

December 14, 2022








Doug DeMuro Reviews The Rivian Amazon Electric Delivery Van


We never thought we’d hear Doug begin one of his videos with “This is a delivery van...” but the Rivian-made Amazon EDV certainly deserves a detailed presentation.




insideevs.com





November 22, 2022








11 Cool Features of Rivian's Amazon Electric Delivery Van


We got up close and personal with the van, and believe us, you'd love for your Black Friday and Cyber Monday purchases to roll up in this cute Rivian EDV.




www.caranddriver.com


----------



## DomB

Interesting video on cold weather (-12 F) performance. 

Separately, Happy holidays, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy New Year!!!

To give you context, this gentleman is a pretty big Rivian Fanboy. TLDR - he gives it a B- ; Hard to say exactly but looks like nonconserve on 20 All Terrain was about 180 miles of range vs. EPA 293 conserve mode test in -12 F. "Fanboy" reference not meant as an insult as clearly I am one. 

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/sub-zero-extreme-cold-drive-–-r1t’s-range-hit-pretty-hard.11201/


----------



## Tjf1967

Peruvian decided to boost production efficiency. They're going to get rid of the quad motor in the R1T for a while. I hope they bring it back before they get to me cuz I'm not getting a dual motor


----------



## Brownski

So do they have a front and rear axle? I thought that was eliminated on the Rivian. Seems like a pretty major redesign.


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> Peruvian decided to boost production efficiency. They're going to get rid of the quad motor in the R1T for a while. I hope they bring it back before they get to me cuz I'm not getting a dual motor


I do not comprehend this one. Who/what is Peruvian other than the nationality? 

From what I read (limited here) is that Quad and Dual will be options. Dual will use their inhouse design. Quads right now are from Bosch.


----------



## DomB

Brownski said:


> So do they have a front and rear axle? I thought that was eliminated on the Rivian. Seems like a pretty major redesign.


The vehicles have a front and rear axle (like any four tire vehicle I am aware of). Right now there are two motors on each axle, but Rivian has just put out a 'story' on how they will have an option for four motors or two. In the case of two, there will be a motor on each axle. Right now they won't use a locking differential but will attempt to mimic that through software and use of breaks. You can pull this up by googling 'Rivian stories dual motor option' or something like that. 

Hope this is helpful and not trying to sound snarky.


----------



## Tjf1967

DomB said:


> I do not comprehend this one. Who/what is Peruvian other than the nationality?
> 
> From what I read (limited here) is that Quad and Dual will be options. Dual will use their inhouse design. Quads right now are from Bosch.


Rivian...typo.. Quad motor not going to be an option.


----------



## DomB

The map is getting filled in. Flatlanders can EV up to Whiteface pretty easily based on map. Have not charged yet as a i don't have an EV but saw a fancy Mercedes test mule in the station 20 miles south of lake George in March or April of last year doing cold weather testing on the 350 kw charger. If working to spec would give you 140 miles of Rivian range in 20 min. 









100+ Evolve NY Electric Vehicle Fast Chargers Now Installed


EV Infrastructure on Long Island, Home to Nearly 30 Percent of New York State's EV Owners, NYPA Announces 100 EV Fast Charger




cleantechnica.com


----------



## DomB

Ooh I have been looking for this link:









EVolve NY Upcoming Site Map - Google My Maps


Check out all of EVolve NY's upcoming EV fast charging sites!




www.google.com


----------



## DomB

Tjf1967 said:


> Rivian...typo.. Quad motor not going to be an option.


Got it. It looks like they will be for some time, but I suspect they will want to go to dual for the reason you noted. Not sure if that means a year from now or four.


----------



## jasonwx

every vid i watch , says non tesla chargers are not reliable..long trips are a real hassle..


----------



## DomB

jasonwx said:


> every vid i watch , says non tesla chargers are not reliable..long trips are a real hassle..


That's what I see. I am hoping, rightly or wrongly that 1) the NY charger system is more reliable. And 2) Rivian's Tesla-like charger map will be fine when built out. Bonus, 3) Tesla will open up their system. Not out of kindness, but because of all the dollars they will get from the so-called Inflation Reduction Act. Tesla announced this in the past few months. 

99.5% of my driving is covered by 1. Outside of winter, 95% of my driving is within a 100 miles of my home. Will install a Level 2 charger at my home which will get me to 100% overnight if I want that. 

This is the range-anxiety issue. I don't mind trying it out. If it is horrible, I will sell the Rivian likely for more than I paid and just get a Highlander or Sienna Hybrid. Would like Highlander as I could probably still get it on the beach.


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> every vid i watch , says non tesla chargers are not reliable..long trips are a real hassle..


My husband's friend who is on his second Tesla carries multiple charging adapters and plug adapters. That gives him more options if there isn't a Tesla charger on the way. He's been driving from Texas to the Pacific NW on an annual basis. Also drives from Texas to FL or up to visit friends in DC fairly often.

My friends who had a kid at North Country School in Lake Placid was driving his Tesla there from Raleigh for school breaks during cold temps between November and March. Had to plan a bit but didn't really have that much of an issue.

That said, it clearly takes more planning for a long trip with a non-Tesla BEV in most regions. Reminds me of what people who have diesel cars need to think about.


----------



## MarzNC

Noticed recently that in a few places, AAA is providing service to BEVs that need a charge. It's an extension of the AAA service for people who run out of gas.


----------



## MarzNC

Hmm . . . may take a while before Tesla chargers are useful for other BEVs in the USA.

November 11, 2022








Tesla officially makes its charging standard available to other companies | CNN Business


One of Tesla's biggest competitive advantages in North America has been its network of chargers that, for the most part, can charge only Tesla vehicles.




www.cnn.com





December 6, 2022








Elon Musk tells Biden that Tesla is opening its Supercharger network, but how?


Elon Musk told Biden that Tesla is opening its Supercharger network, but the plan has been unclear since Tesla opened its charge connector.




electrek.co


----------



## MarzNC

Lately when I check into a motel or am looking to book a VRBO/AirBnB rental, I'm asking whether or not there is an exterior outlet. More out of curiosity than any need to plug in my RAV4 Prime overnight during a trip. In general, the question is taken seriously. There are a few hotel chains that have partnered with Tesla and/or a commercial charging company. Reminds me of when finding a budget motel with WiFi took a little effort.

The large house my group shared near Del Norte, CO not only had an exterior outlet, it was very conveniently located near the front door and generous parking area. I was able to charge in temps under 15 degrees. Max range was 39, compared to 42-45 when temps overnight are in the 40s or 50s. We filled up the tank the afternoon we arrived. Was a bonus not to need to get gas again until we left after 8 days straight of skiing at Wolf Creek. The drive from the house was about 30 miles. I could pick up 2-3 EV miles on the way down in the afternoon.


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

I like this one.
https://www.alphamotorinc.com/wolf


----------



## MarzNC

Adirondack Johnny said:


> I like this one.
> https://www.alphamotorinc.com/wolf


From what I can tell, the Alpha Motors Wolf may or may not ever be produced.

November 2022








Alpha Motors: Is It Real or Is It Vaporware?


We take our periodic look at EV startup Alpha to see if it has gotten closer to producing more than renderings.




www.motorbiscuit.com


----------



## Campgottagopee




----------



## DomB

Campgottagopee said:


> View attachment 17140


Nice - this is the vehicle done in coordination with Toyota, right? But T bought all theirs back as wheels were falling off.


----------

