# Toggenburg Mountain Sold



## Campgottagopee

RIP Tog


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## Harvey

Save Togg! Save Lab! Save CNY Skiing! Petition
					

This is a petition to Peter Harris who has just purchased Toggenburg Mountain from John Meier owner of Greek Peak.  We do not know the full intention of Peter, but we have heard rumors that he plans to close Toggenburg Mountain to centralize his operations to Labrador and Song mountain.  This...




					docs.google.com
				




We've lost some NY ski areas in recent years. 

Toggenburg sold yes, but closing it seems like a rumor? 

Seems like an odd business decision to buy it and close it, unless maybe you want it for parts? Are the lifts compatible?

If it is really gone, I'm bummed I didn't get there.


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Closing it seems like a rumor?


Agree

I had first heard about this from Pro quite some time ago. We both felt it wasn't true, turns out it is(the sale of Tog). Who knows what Peter will do with it. Rumor also is he's planning on keeping Lab closed to send all his traffic to Song.
I certainly don't blame GP for selling it, I mean, in todays climate you have to be half nuts to own a ski area, not to mention two of them.
It will be interesting to watch.


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## Cork

Wow, this is a bummer!  I skied Tog back in the early 80's in high school with the ski club on Tuesday nights, great memories!


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## Tjf1967

Be a nice spot to build a few houses and turn the property into an association to maintain the hills. No lifts. Sell them off to maintain a few trails for touring. They are really nice properties. Thinking closing them down and the people will migrate to song seems wishful thinking. Be good for Greek... Song I don't see it


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## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Be a nice spot to build a few houses


rumor is that's the plan


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## Harvey

Will it continue to be a ski area for home owners?


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Will it continue to be a ski area for home owners?



That's not what I've heard ---- housing project only

Who knows, this is all rumor and could be a load of manure


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## Benny Profane

I cursed it.


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## Harvey

The Greekenburg joint pass is still on sale, at this moment:



Select an Item


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## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> That's not what I've heard ---- housing project only
> 
> Who knows, this is all rumor and could be a load of manure


I was told by the fellow who gave me his masters thesis (regarding designing paraplegic skiing device) this weekend that the rumor was Peter had bought it.
Maybe he’ll run the 3-slopes dependent on the snow/attendance conditions.
Song has been closed on non-holiday Mondays.
If ya build it they will come to fields of snow.


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## CazMan26

Heard today that togg was purchased by skicny / Peter Harris. Can anyone confirm this ?


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## Campgottagopee

Yes









Toggenburg Conditions


Thinking about skipping out of work and heading there for some pow. Haven't been in a few years. Anyone headed there tomorrow? Interested in meeting up?




nyskiblog.com


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## Harvey

Seemed like it deserved it's own thread.

Threads merged. Also this is definitely not Off Topic, moved to Woodstove.


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Also this is definitely not Off Topic, moved to Woodstove.


Agree

Being NYS has the most ski areas in the US, it's not cool when one closes. Big or small.


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## Harvey

Val Bialas is gone this year too. Tuxedo Ridge a few years ago. Hickory of course. Indian Lake Town Hill. The Nevele.

Any others?


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## CazMan26

I guess Peter Harris is eliminating the competition ?


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## Campgottagopee

CazMan26 said:


> I guess Peter Harris is eliminating the competition ?



It would seem so.
I'd consider it a win for GP skiers in that now owners/management only have 1 ski area to concentrate on.


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## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> It would seem so.
> I'd consider it a win for GP skiers in that now owners/management only have 1 ski area to concentrate on.


Hopefully he can take whatever he sold it for and replace chair 4 pronto


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## Harvey

I don't think the fat lady has sung on Togg being closed.

It's not unheard of to buy and shut a competitor down, but it seems like and expensive way to go. How much would Togg sell for? What could that money do invested in Song and Lab?


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## Stu

Campgottagopee said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toggenburg Conditions
> 
> 
> Thinking about skipping out of work and heading there for some pow. Haven't been in a few years. Anyone headed there tomorrow? Interested in meeting up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nyskiblog.com


Do you have a source I can talk to? Trying to do a write-up. Thanks.


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## Brownski

Is there any basis for the rumor that he plans to close it? It seems odd that it would be purchased by a guy operating two other ski areas if it’s just for a real estate development. Is the owner of Song/Lab a real estate developer?


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## XTski

Buying out the competition happens, in Great Falls va ($ town) their was 2 full service gas stations and a garage without gas service, to take cars for service, owner of both gas stations sold one that turned into a bank then he out bid the guy that had the garage for the lease to that property so that mechanic moved to neighboring town, after 2 years that garage is now empty and theirs now only one place to get cars fixed , it was a well worked out plan to eliminate competition


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## tirolski

I’ve skied a Lab and Song doubleheader the same day before.
Might have to try the trifecta if it’s possible.
It was b4 the vid though.
Lake effect bands are narrow sometimes so one place can get more snow eventhough they’re not far from each other.


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## Harvey

tirolski said:


> Lake effect bands are narrow sometimes so one place can get more snow eventhough they’re not far from each other.


I thought about this in the context of a three way Togg/Lab/Song pass.


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## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I thought about this in the context of a three way Togg/Lab/Song pass.


It could be a win win win situation.


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I don't think the fat lady has sung on Togg being closed.



Yep. There also hasn't been anything officially published regarding the sale of Tog. This is all just campfire talk, but it's out enough now that if the sale weren't true I'd think we would've heard by now that it's fake news.


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## Campgottagopee

Stu said:


> Do you have a source I can talk to? Trying to do a write-up. Thanks.


No source
All bar room banter


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I thought about this in the context of a three way Togg/Lab/Song pass.


I think this looks good on paper but can you imagine trying to staff 3 ski areas? In today's world that will be a tough hill to climb.


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## Stu

Here's my thoughts based on the info I currently have: 









Is the Executioner Coming for Yet Another Classic Ski Area?


Did Song and Labrador Just Buy Toggenburg? If so, will the Central New York duo add Toggenburg to its superpass, or shut it down?




www.stormskiing.com


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## Campgottagopee

Stu said:


> Here's my thoughts based on the info I currently have:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is the Executioner Coming for Yet Another Classic Ski Area?
> 
> 
> Did Song and Labrador Just Buy Toggenburg? If so, will the Central New York duo add Toggenburg to its superpass, or shut it down?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stormskiing.com



Thanks for sharing that, Stu.

As I speculated earlier, and you eluded to in your article, I think GP owners got out while the getting is still semi good. I still feel staffing and management will be the biggest hurdle for any NYS family run/owned ski area.


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## Stu

Campgottagopee said:


> Thanks for sharing that, Stu.
> 
> As I speculated earlier, and you eluded to in your article, I think GP owners got out while the getting is still semi good. I still feel staffing and management will be the biggest hurdle for any NYS family run/owned ski area.


I agree. Seems like everyone's having trouble with staffing right now.


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## Emily

Hello everyone--I've read many of your posts over the years, and decided to finally join the fun. I've been following the Toggenburg saga, and concur that it is doubtful that Harris purchased Toggenburg only to close it down and eliminate the competition. While I can't speculate as to his financial situation, I would find it hard to believe that this is his strategy. He is not a large corporation with significant financial resources, in my opinion. Of course, I've been wrong before. 

However, he certainly would have a competitive advantage if he owned three ski areas within a stone's throw from each other. That would make a season pass enticing to some.

Finally, given that Greek Peak and Toggenburg continue to sell season passes (Greekenburg), if Harris or Meier knowingly continues to sell passes with the plan of a closure, that becomes a criminal matter.


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## Harvey

Welcome @Emily 

I'd guess forgetful before criminal.


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## Emily

Harvey said:


> Welcome @Emily
> 
> I'd guess forgetful before criminal.



I hope so.

For everyone's sake, I'd hate to see another NYS ski area shuttered.


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## Adam

Hello - first time contributor here. My family has been skiing Tog for the past few seasons and already purchased season passes for winter 21/22. I've been hearing these rumors for a few weeks now. If they plan to close it, I really hope that they allow an option to transfer season passes, rather than just refunding people. Or hopefully they will honor early season price discounts for Lab/Song for those who purchased passes early for Tog.


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I'd guess forgetful before criminal.



Most likely the case
OR
They'll be honoring those passes sold? Who knows. As mentioned, it will be interesting once it's all unfolded to us.


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## Harvey

Peter responded to an email I sent last week saying he'd be ready to talk this afternoon. From what I can gather — talking to @Stu — he sent us both the same email so it sounds like he is ready to share. If I thought he was speaking exclusively to me, I'd do something for the front page, but because that's not the case, I'll share whatever I get here. (Pretty likely others will be me to it.)

If have specific ideas for questions, beyond the obvious "are you going to close Togg" and "will there be a joint pass" post them here.

I suppose also "what will happen to Greekenburg passholders?"


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## tirolski

Is it gonna be named Labsongtog, Songlabtog, or some other combo?
Are any of the 3 hills gonna be more dedicated to certain types i.e. racers, learners, bumpers, carvers, boarders, gladers etc.?


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## Emily

Toggenburg Mountain ski resort sold, will close after nearly 70 years


New owner says Toggenburg's operations will be absorbed into that of Song and Labrador ski resorts.




www.syracuse.com


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## Emily

https://www.skicny.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Press_Release_Togg9.pdf


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## Brownski

So Tog is done


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## Emily

Such a shame. While I haven't skied Togg in years, I hate to see small businesses close, as it has an impact on so many, including the community. 

The reality is that Jim Hickey should never have sold Togg to the "Saviors of Greek Peak." His family owned Togg since the early 1950's.


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## Adam

There is a link on their website that says "Toggenburg Spring Season Pass Purchasers Only Here" but it goes to a password protected page. I emailed them to find out what the deal is. Hopefully they are offering similar early season discounts for those of us that purchased early.


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## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> Toggenburg Mountain ski resort sold, will close after nearly 70 years
> 
> 
> New owner says Toggenburg's operations will be absorbed into that of Song and Labrador ski resorts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.syracuse.com


Not surprised. Totally sucks, but given where we are it makes sense.
It also makes complete sense for GP. What a relief it must be to have that monkey of their back.


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## Harvey

Operations absorbed.


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## CazMan26

I know a lot of Toggenburg people do not like skiing at Lab or Song. I am guessing that Caz ski club will be getting a lot of new members this season !


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## jamesdeluxe

Harvey said:


> Operations absorbed.


Moving Togg's snowcat to one of the other hills?


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## Brownski

CazMan26 said:


> I know a lot of Toggenburg people do not like skiing at Lab or Song.


Why is that?


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## Harvey

Yea. From the article above:



> Peter Harris, president of Intermountain Management (also known as SkiCNY.com), owner and operator of Song Mountain in Tully and Labrador Mountain in Truxton, said Tuesday that Toggenburg will not reopen this winter and that its operations will be absorbed by those of Song and Labrador.
> 
> “Unfortunately, it’s a very hard decision, but there are a number of reasons,” Harris said.
> 
> Among them, the labor shortage caused by the coronavirus pandemic and a lack of business to support three ski resorts located within a 12-mile radius, he said.



Is there hope in the phrase "this season?" Somehow I doubt it.

According to the article the sale was finalized today, which is likely why Peter wasn't responding to anything.


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## Harvey

Adam said:


> There is a link on their website that says "Toggenburg Spring Season Pass Purchasers Only Here" but it goes to a password protected page. I emailed them to find out what the deal is. Hopefully they are offering similar early season discounts for those of us that purchased early.



I couldn't get the site to load.

SkiCNY seems odd:





If anyone has the password, would love to see what they are saying.


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## tirolski

Maybe they can open trails earlier (weather permitting) with snow making focused on 2 hills instead of 3.
Hopefully if there's increased demand he’ll run the ptarmargin lift-trails more at Lab as it’s the best part of Lab IMO. There’s nice glades to the south off the lift.
Ptarmy hasn’t been spinning much the last couple years.


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## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Maybe they can open trails earlier (weather permitting) with snow making focused on 2 hills instead of 3.
> Hopefully if there's increased demand he’ll run the ptarmargin lift-trails more at Lab as it’s the best part of Lab IMO. There’s nice glades to the south off the lift.
> Ptarmy hasn’t been spinning much the last couple years.


Out of the 3, Lab would by far be my 1st choice because of that chair.


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## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Out of the 3, Lab would by far be my 1st choice because of that chair.


+1 though I only skied lab & song once each and never skied Tog


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## Emily

The SkiCNY home page is certainly interesting--"Ski CNY Welcomes Toggenburg!" Huh??


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## Harvey

I agree that is very odd messaging.


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## XTski

as I said it makes sense to buy it and shut it down, I wonder if the owner knew his intentions of shutting it down and that may have helped the decision to sell to him, win, win,unfortunate for the Tog regulars though


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## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I couldn't get the site to load.
> 
> SkiCNY seems odd:
> 
> View attachment 9923
> 
> If anyone has the password, would love to see what they are saying.


Ya don’t need a password. Just click Harvey. 
It loads. But Tog’s chairs won’t unfortunately.








SkiCNY | Skiing in Central New York


Full Labrador Report Full Song Report…




www.skicny.com


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## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> The reality is that Jim Hickey should never have sold Togg to the "Saviors of Greek Peak." His family owned Togg since the early 1950's.


Hickey wanted out and GP wanted Hickey to help with their F&B


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## Harvey

tirolski said:


> Ya don’t need a password. Just click Harvey.
> It loads. But Tog’s chairs won’t unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SkiCNY | Skiing in Central New York
> 
> 
> Full Labrador Report Full Song Report…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.skicny.com


This was the page I couldn't get to load:









SkiCNY | Skiing in Central New York


Full Labrador Report Full Song Report…




www.skitog.com





It now redirects.

This was the page that needs a password:









Protected: Season Passes Toggenburg | SkiCNY







www.skicny.com


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## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> Hickey wanted out and GP wanted Hickey to help with their F&B



That slipped me mind. I forgot about that aspect of the sale, and never could figure out the relationship, given that Hickey still operated the Foggy Goggle, but was also supposed to assist with Greek Peak food and beverage in some capacity.


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## Johnny V.

Sad to see. I did a couple of Masters races there and it's a nice little hill. Wonder if this will mean improvements at the survivors-while Song and Lab have their charms as low key ski areas, in today's world they are pretty antiquated. Greek has potential, but has a long way to go to be in the same league as Holiday Valley or Bristol in terms of infrastructure.


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## Ripitz

Wow, wicked bummer. Never skied there. I feel like I’m at a funeral of a beloved family member that I never met. Can only imagine the joy that little hill provided for so many. I hope something cool happens in the afterlife. Here come the poachers…


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## Campgottagopee

CazMan26 said:


> I know a lot of Toggenburg people do not like skiing at Lab or Song.



Curious as to why?


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## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> given that Hickey still operated the Foggy Goggle


He also runs Vesper Hills F&B


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## CazMan26

Campgottagopee said:


> Curious as to why?


The core skiers at Togg like it there for a bunch of different reasons, most of them say “because where it is located”. Others say “they like the lodge/bar better than Lab”. And most say “the terrain and the grooming is better”. . .? Anyway, this is what I have been told over the years. You can pick any one and have a debate for hours (and beers) about the advantages/disadvantages of both ski areas. I grew up skiing at Labrador, so I am just sharing what I have been told by a lot of people.


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## jamesdeluxe

I know that the closing of any ski area, especially in NYS, is a loss worth discussing and mourning. Still, it's interesting to note the level of interest and hand-wringing given how seldomly Toggenburg was mentioned over the years. You can't do a search of the old forum, but this is all that comes up from the new forum and one of them was my report from the original Toggenburg in Switzerland.


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## Harvey

We had at least two lurkers join because of this news.


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## Campgottagopee

CazMan26 said:


> The core skiers at Togg like it there for a bunch of different reasons, most of them say “because where it is located”. Others say “they like the lodge/bar better than Lab”. And most say “the terrain and the grooming is better”. . .? Anyway, this is what I have been told over the years. You can pick any one and have a debate for hours (and beers) about the advantages/disadvantages of both ski areas. I grew up skiing at Labrador, so I am just sharing what I have been told by a lot of people.



Gotcha

I totally get all of those as GP is my backyard. I hate to drive, so leaving the Valley isn't something I do because I can do what I do right there. I'd say the same if I lived at __________. (fill in the blank with whomever you want) Homers unite!! ?


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## x10003q

jamesdeluxe said:


> I know that the closing of any ski area, especially in NYS, is a loss worth discussing and mourning. Still, it's interesting to note the level of interest and hand-wringing given how seldomly Toggenburg was mentioned over the years. You can't do a search of the old forum, but this is all that comes up from the new forum and one of them was my report from the original Toggenburg in Switzerland.
> 
> View attachment 9926


Song/Tog/Lab are interesting triplets (plus Greek) that are hard to talk about without having visited. I am sure I am not alone holding onto a fantasy of traveling around NYS to visit these places. Life is still in the way of such a trip for me and losing Tog is a bummer.


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## Harvey

x10003q said:


> I am sure I am not alone holding onto a fantasy of traveling around NYS to visit these places. Life is still in the way of such a trip for me and losing Tog is a bummer.


You are not alone.


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## Emily

The reality is that Toggenburg was nothing special unless it was something special to you, and it was apparently special to many.

I just wish that Meier and Stemmerman would have stayed away, and allowed someone who cared about Toggenburg to operate it. 

At least now maybe Meier will spend some money on replacing the lifts at Greek Peak. They've done a nice job with snowmaking pipe and gun replacement over the year, but the lifts are a mess.


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## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> I just wish that Meier and Stemmerman would have stayed away, and allowed someone who cared about Toggenburg to operate it.



I don't think this is a fair assessment of what happened. According to the article Meier was approached about selling Togg and he did. It's not that he didn't care, because he does, it's more about him now being able to concentrate on GP during an extremely challenging time.


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## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> I don't think this is a fair assessment of what happened. According to the article Meier was approached about selling Togg and he did. It's not that he didn't care, because he does, it's more about him now being able to concentrate on GP during an extremely challenging time.



If he cared, why would he sell Togg just to see it closed? After all, he was referred to as "the savior of Greek Peak." Last year were record attendance years for local ski areas, as travel restrictions prevented individuals and families to travel out of state. I can't speak to Togg, but I know that Greek Peak's numbers were up considerably last year both in revenue and skier visits. They also saw a significant increase in season pass sales. 

In terms of his argument that staffing is a challenge, that is always the case with any type of seasonal business--not just the ski business. However, that comes down to what one pays is what one gets. Paying someone near minimum wage to stand out in the cold all day is certainly a challenge, but there is a price to pay that will attract labor. 

I'm just agitated that another local business has been closed after close to 70 years. People in Fabius were as passionate about Toggenburg, as people in Virgil are to Greek Peak. 

.


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## Harvey

I'm guessing he thought his life would be easier, and his business more profitable without Togg. The fact that Peter was buying it, to shut it down, probably wasn't a big factor. Just a guess, I have no real info.


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## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> I'm just agitated that another local business has been closed after close to 70 years. People in Fabius were as passionate about Toggenburg, as people in Virgil are to Greek Peak.
> 
> .



I totally can understand and appreciate that. It def sucks.


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I'm guessing he thought his life would be easier, and his business more profitable without Togg. The fact that Peter was buying it, to shut it down, probably wasn't a big factor. Just a guess, I have no real info.


This ^^^^ is what I was trying to say. I have no real info other than it makes complete sense, to me.


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## Emily

Harvey said:


> I'm guessing he thought his life would be easier, and his business more profitable without Togg. The fact that Peter was buying it, to shut it down, probably wasn't a big factor. Just a guess, I have no real info.



I would agree with your assessment of the situation. At the time, I would surmise that Meier and Stemmerman were still excited about their Greek Peak purchase and felt that Toggenburg would make a good fit. I have to believe though, that Meier knew that Harris was going to close Toggenburg rather than add a third ski area to his pass product, otherwise he may not have sold it.


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## Adam

I received my season pass refund from Tog today. SkiCNY is offering the same Toggenburg Spring Season Pass rate, but only through August 31. The letter with the refund has the password to access that pricing on the skicny website. Sweet! I'm a little annoyed about having to drive further (extra 15 min each way), but am happy at least I don't have to shell out more now for passes.


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## Emily

Adam said:


> I received my season pass refund from Tog today. SkiCNY is offering the same Toggenburg Spring Season Pass rate, but only through August 31. The letter with the refund has the password to access that pricing on the skicny website. Sweet! I'm a little annoyed about having to drive further (extra 15 min each way), but am happy at least I don't have to shell out more now for passes.



Adam: While this entire situation is so unfortunate, at least they are offering early season pricing for the SkiCNY pass as a consolation.


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## CazMan26

Adam said:


> Sweet! I'm a little annoyed about having to drive further (extra 15 min each way), but am happy at least I don't have to shell out more now for passes.


Just curious, Driving further to Labrador or to Song ?


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## Adam

Emily said:


> Adam: While this entire situation is so unfortunate, at least they are offering early season pricing for the SkiCNY pass as a consolation.


Right, that's all I really wanted. It would have been cool if they offered a direct transfer, but the refund and subsequent purchase isn't a big deal.


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## Adam

CazMan26 said:


> Just curious, Driving further to Labrador or to Song ?


I was talking about Lab, but Song isn't really much further than that. I live in Nelson and it's 13 miles to Tog. Lab is 21 miles; Song is 25. Probably won't go to Song much, but I do have friends from the west side of Syracuse that ski there often so it'll be nice to meet up with them without having to buy a day pass.


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## Harvey

Haha cry me a river Adam 

Closest great mountain to me is more than 3 hours.

2.5 years and counting, moving to the Adk.


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## Adam

Harvey said:


> Haha cry me a river Adam
> 
> Closest great mountain to me is more than 3 hours.
> 
> 2.5 years and counting, moving to the Adk.


I know, I know, first world problem. But you'd cry if you had 5 kids in the car with you like I do. 15 minutes extra is torture! ha!


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## Campgottagopee

Adam said:


> But you'd cry if you had 5 kids in the car with you like I do.


Cry? I'd hang myself!!!


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## MarzNC

August 4, 2021








Toggenburg Sold, New Owner to Close It, Sell Assets


SAM Magazine—Fabius, N.Y., Aug. 4, 2021—Toggenburg Mountain in upstate New York was acquired by Peter Harris, president of Intermountain Management, which




www.saminfo.com




_" . . .
The roughly 160-acre Toggenburg property is for sale. Its three chairlifts—two Hall doubles and a Borvig triple—are also on offer for purchase, said Harris. “New lifts are expensive, which drives the price up for used ones,” he added. Other equipment, primarily snowmaking, will be useful for Song or Labrador, said Harris.

Harris will not entertain offers from potential buyers who want to reopen the mountain as a ski area, and there would be a covenant on the property preventing that.
. . .

Guests who purchased Toggenburg season passes during the spring sale will receive refund checks from Togg Holdings LLC, of which the Meiers are the sole members. Those guests will be offered the chance to buy a Song/Labrador pass for the same rate. “We are honoring the early spring rate for the Toggenburg spring pass purchasers through August 31,” said Harris. "_


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## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Harris will not entertain offers from potential buyers who want to reopen the mountain as a ski area, and there would be a covenant on the property preventing that.



So he doesn't want the property himself.


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## XTski

Harris is shrewd , cold businessman, seems he blindsided the locals tho, how could I figure that shit out and the locals had no clue? Putting a covenant so nobody can reopen it as a ski area, damn! I would like to know the sellers view as they must have been in cahoots with Harris ,


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## Ripitz

XTski said:


> Putting a covenant so nobody can reopen it as a ski area, damn!


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## tirolski

IMO Lab has the best views as ya see mainly forests and a stream in the valley. The old cemetery is surrounded by the parking lot across the road behind the Last Run restaurant so it’s out of view when skiing.
Ya can see Otisco lake to the NW at Song which is nice.
Tog views were mainly of farmland and in winter it’s white.


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## Campgottagopee

XTski said:


> Harris is shrewd , cold businessman


Anyone in biz has to make tough decisions, even one's that aren't popular.



XTski said:


> he blindsided the locals tho, how could I figure that shit out and the locals had no clue? Putting a covenant so nobody can reopen it as a ski area, damn!


I don't think anyone is blindsided by Tog being liquidated. It totally sucks, and I'd be pissed too, really pissed, but the writing was on the wall.



XTski said:


> I would like to know the sellers view as they must have been in cahoots with Harris ,


IMO the Meiers were / are looking out for their future, both immediate and long term.


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## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> IMO Lab has the best views as ya see mainly forests and a stream in the valley. The old cemetery is surrounded by the parking lot across the road behind the Last Run restaurant so it’s out of view when skiing.
> Ya can see Otisco lake to the NW at Song which is nice.
> Tog views were mainly of farmland and in winter it’s white.



I'm hopeful that this transaction gives Song/Lab a better chance to be open more.


----------



## tirolski

XTski said:


> Putting a covenant so nobody can reopen it as a ski area, damn! I would like to know the sellers view as they must have been in cahoots with Harris ,


They both “win” as Greek’s owner said he bought Tog to get business to go Greek, allegedly.
Selling Tog with that covenant goes with the "If ya build it they will come” analogy to "if ya close it they will go somewhere else".


----------



## Harvey

We all make decisions in our own best interest, but they aren't publicly examined.

I have a fund in my 401k VTSMX - a "total market" fund. It owns every single publicly held company. That means I own good companies and companies that are pure evil. No one is calling me out for investing in those evil companies.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> We all make decisions in our own best interest, but they aren't publicly examined.
> 
> I have a fund in my 401k VTSMX - a "total market" fund. It owns every single publicly held company. That means I own good companies and companies that are pure evil. No one is calling me out for investing in those evil companies.


Excellent analogy


----------



## XTski

Campgottagopee said:


> Anyone in biz has to make tough decisions, even one's that aren't popular.
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone is blindsided by Tog being liquidated. It totally sucks, and I'd be pissed too, really pissed, but the writing was on the wall.
> 
> 
> IMO the Meiers were / are looking out for their future, both immediate and long term.





tirolski said:


> They both “win” as Greek’s owner said he bought Tog to get business to go Greek, allegedly.
> Selling Tog with that covenant goes with the "If ya build it they will come” analogy to "if ya close it they will go somewhere else".


Yes I said earlier in thread it was a “win, win” (both owners) but not for the locals who perhaps could have found a possible buyer who could have kept Tog going, but if it’s was a deal made without much public notice that makes it an interesting story to find out the details


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> have a fund in my 401k VTSMX - a "total market" fund. It owns every single publicly held company. That means I own good companies and companies that are pure evil.


Exactly the reason I never got one


----------



## XTski

Emily said:


> Hello everyone--I've read many of your posts over the years, and decided to finally join the fun. I've been following the Toggenburg saga, and concur that it is doubtful that Harris purchased Toggenburg only to close it down and eliminate the competition. While I can't speculate as to his financial situation, I would find it hard to believe that this is his strategy. He is not a large corporation with significant financial resources, in my opinion. Of course, I've been wrong before.
> 
> However, he certainly would have a competitive advantage if he owned three ski areas within a stone's throw from each other. That would make a season pass enticing to some.
> 
> Finally, given that Greek Peak and Toggenburg continue to sell season passes (Greekenburg), if Harris or Meier knowingly continues to sell passes with the plan of a closure, that becomes a criminal matter.


This is what shows how people were blindsided, how could I have figured it out and not this person who I assume has more local knowledge then I do since they seemed so sure, I have clients that could have invested in something like that to keep green spaces open, this place will eventually get developed for housing which maybe could have been prevented


----------



## Campgottagopee

XTski said:


> This is what shows how people were blindsided, how could I have figured it out and not this person who I assume has more local knowledge then I do since they seemed so sure, I have clients that could have invested in something like that to keep green spaces open, this place will eventually get developed for housing which maybe could have been prevented


I read what Emily wrote differently. She used words like doubtful, hard to believe, and I've been wrong before. Those words and statements tell me, like the rest of us, that we were all hopeful that the rumors of Togg being closed and turned into housing was false. I don't equate that with blindsided as nobody is in shock over this. Just pissed.


----------



## tirolski

XTski said:


> this place will eventually get developed for housing which maybe could have been prevented


Doubt there will be a whole lot of housing on the Tog hill. 
More likely use for the land is some type of agriculture. 
Mini-farms maybe as some folks are into that.


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> Exactly the reason I never got one


 
Do you own any funds? Do you vet each company owned and pull out if they buy the wrong one?

In a perfect world I'd do that, but it's a lot of work and might not even give the desired result. I'm sure there are evil companies that will never be exposed.

Buying individual stocks for retirement takes a lot of due diligence. It's got more upside and downside, aka risk.


----------



## tirolski

Tax Map 


http://www.fsihost.com/onondaga/Default.aspx?sbl=11700000010080000000&swis=313089


Property history.


https://ocfintax.ongov.net/Imate/propdetail.aspx?swis=313089&printkey=11700000010080000000


Looks to have at least 3 different parcels associated with the ski hill.


https://ocfintax.ongov.net/Imate/viewlist.aspx?sort=printkey&swis=all&streetnum=1135&advanced=true


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Do you own any funds? Do you vet each company owned and pull out if they buy the wrong one?
> 
> In a perfect world I'd do that, but it's a lot of work and might not even give the desired result. I'm sure there are evil companies that will never be exposed.
> 
> Buying individual stocks for retirement takes a lot of due diligence. It's got more upside and downside, aka risk.


I have no money in the market but I am interested in ESG funds


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> They both “win” as Greek’s owner said he bought Tog to get business to go Greek, allegedly.
> Selling Tog with that covenant goes with the "If ya build it they will come” analogy to "if ya close it they will go somewhere else".


Recently finished reading about the Lost Ski Areas of the Berkshires. The original owner/developer of Brodie decided quite a while ago to focus on golf instead of skiing. Sold the slopes to the competitor down the road, Jiminy Peak. When the owners of Jiminy Peak could see that it didn't make financial sense to upgrade nearby Brodie, they sold the land in 2004 with a legal agreement that the new owner couldn't run it as a public ski hill. There just wasn't the market to sustain two ski operations.

I saw the Brodie trails from Mt. Greylock State Park in June. It takes more than having good terrain to have a sustainable business when 100% snowmaking is required.





__





Brodie Mountain Ski Area History - Massachusetts - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com






www.newenglandskihistory.com


----------



## Harvey

@Stu connected and will have something (good I'm sure) tomorrow.

In the comments below this on Facebook someone posted that the sale price was $750,000. Price paid in 2015 wasn't disclosed at the time. Anyone know how much was paid? For some reason, post isn't embed-able:


----------



## Emily

"At this time, it makes sense for Intermountain to carry on the mantle. We appreciate Harris's interest in Toggenburg and wish the best to him and the Toggenburg community."

This statement walks a fine line, as it implies that business will be as usual at Toggenburg. The Meier's knew darn well that Harris was going to close Togg, otherwise, they wouldn't have sold it to him and risk Harris offering a 3-ski area season pass. 

What perplexed me is that I didn't think Harris had the financial resources to pull this off. After all, it's not as if Lab and Song have state-of-the-art facilities, although Heuga's looks like a nice new addition. Of course, if Harris only paid $750K for Togg, and is able to recoup some of that money through piecemeal sales of Togg's assets, as well as attracting former Togg skiers to Ski CNY, then the $750K may be insignificant. 

I do think it's not going to generate much goodwill with the community that he added the covenant to the sale. If he doesn't feel that Togg is a viable operation, he shouldn't worry about a new owner operating a ski area.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I'm hearing people saying had they known the price was $750K (if it really was) they could've/would've raised more $ than that and keep it open. I 100% guarantee you Peter would sell, for the right price, to anyone for any use.
The world belongs to asker's. Put your money up and make the man an offer.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm hearing people saying had they known the price was $750K (if it really was) they could've/would've raised more $ than that and keep it open. I 100% guarantee you Peter would sell, for the right price, to anyone for any use.
> The world belongs to asker's. Put your money up and make the man an offer.



That would have been nice to allow the locals to form a coop. As you said, Peter may have a change of heart for the right price. He still needs to pay taxes on Togg, as long as it sits vacant and not generating any money. That gets old after awhile. I can’t imagine that a vacant ski area is prime real estate in Fabius, NY. Plus, there’s quite a bit involved in deconstructing a ski area.


----------



## Tjf1967

Do lab and song have the same type of lifts?


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> The world belongs to asker's. Put your money up and make the man an offer


I’m looking for a surface lift for my backyard.


----------



## Emily

Tjf1967 said:


> Do lab and song have the same type of lifts?



Lab has two doubles, a triple, and a T-bar.
Song has two doubles, a triple, and two T-bars.
Togg has a double, a triple, and two tows.


----------



## Brownski

Tjf1967 said:


> Do lab and song have the same type of lifts?


No
Song is all Riblets. I don’t remember what was at Lab but not riblets. Does anybody know what is at Tog?


----------



## tirolski

Emily said:


> Lab has two doubles, a triple, and a T-bar.
> Song has two doubles, a triple, and two T-bars.
> Togg has a double, a triple, and two tows.


Lab has also has rope tow I used when the opening day line for the triple wasn’t to my liking. 1/2 dozen or so runs in 10 minutes and I was out.
Song has 4 chairlifts but have yet to see a T-bar at Song in years though the towers are there if they want to string em on.
Tog has two Hall doubles and Borvig triple. Don’t know bout rope at Tog.


----------



## Harvey

The word "covenant" was used in regard to the sale and the prohibition from operating as a ski area. 

I believe that legally there will never be a ski area on that land again.

Think about it. If Peter can turn around and sell it to someone who puts a ski area on it, what good is the agreement?


----------



## tirolski

The Auburn pub did an article.








Greek Peak sells Toggenburg to focus on core business


FABIUS — The selling and closing of Toggenburg Mountain ski center will allow the owners of Greek Peak Mountain Resort in Virgil to further focus on improving the Virgil resort,




auburnpub.com




Sale to Meier went down in 2015 not 2019, Harv.


----------



## Harvey

I knew that, it was a typo.

I actually wrote this, John and Marc gave me an exclusive of sorts:









Greek Peak Buys Toggenburg


Announced today.




nyskiblog.com


----------



## Emily

tirolski said:


> The Auburn pub did an article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greek Peak sells Toggenburg to focus on core business
> 
> 
> FABIUS — The selling and closing of Toggenburg Mountain ski center will allow the owners of Greek Peak Mountain Resort in Virgil to further focus on improving the Virgil resort,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> auburnpub.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sale to Meier went down in 2015 not 2019, Harv.



So Meier justified selling Togg to focus on the wedding pavilion, campground, and expanded mountain biking, all of which are well under construction. The campground was originally planned to open early this summer, but has now been pushed back to next summer. In terms of the steakhouse, it’s been open for months.

lt would have been nice to hear him mention some improvements to the lift system, most of which are well beyond their useful lives. The old reliable chair 4 and their newest lift (after Visions) chair 5 have been debacles the last few ski seasons. I’m waiting for chair 3 to actually implode one of these days. Heck, the lifts haven’t even been painted since before the bankruptcy.


----------



## Emily

Harvey said:


> I knew that, it was a typo.
> 
> I actually wrote this, John and Marc gave me an exclusive of sorts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greek Peak Buys Toggenburg
> 
> 
> Announced today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nyskiblog.com



I wonder what the Hickey family thinks now. It has got to be somewhat heartbreaking.


----------



## Brownski

Emily said:


> lt would have been nice to hear him mention some improvements to the lift system, most of which are well beyond their useful lives. The old reliable chair 4 and their newest lift (after Visions) chair 5 have been debacles the last few ski seasons. I’m waiting for chair 3 to actually implode one of these days. Heck, the lifts haven’t even been painted since before the bankruptcy.


You’re not wrong.


----------



## Ripitz

Save Togg! Save Lab! Save CNY Skiing! Petition


This is a petition to Peter Harris who has just purchased Toggenburg Mountain from John Meier owner of Greek Peak. We do not know the full intention of Peter, but we have heard rumors that he plans to close Toggenburg Mountain to centralize his operations to Labrador and Song mountain. This...




docs.google.com


----------



## tirolski

Some older Togg u-tubes made by SU’s Newhouse School students.



https://www.youtube.com/user/CNY32/playlists


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> So Meier justified selling Togg to focus on the wedding pavilion, campground, and expanded mountain biking, all of which are well under construction. The campground was originally planned to open early this summer, but has now been pushed back to next summer. In terms of the steakhouse, it’s been open for months.
> 
> lt would have been nice to hear him mention some improvements to the lift system, most of which are well beyond their useful lives. The old reliable chair 4 and their newest lift (after Visions) chair 5 have been debacles the last few ski seasons. I’m waiting for chair 3 to actually implode one of these days. Heck, the lifts haven’t even been painted since before the bankruptcy.


I don't think a person has to justify the selling of something that isn't making him money.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> The word "covenant" was used in regard to the sale and the prohibition from operating as a ski area.
> 
> I believe that legally there will never be a ski area on that land again.
> 
> Think about it. If Peter can turn around and sell it to someone who puts a ski area on it, what good is the agreement?


Agreements are made and broken everyday. Money talks.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> I don't think a person has to justify the selling of something that isn't making him money.


I totally agree. Private businesses don’t need to justify anything to anyone, other than to garner Goodwill.

What is interesting is that Wes Kryger said in the spring that both Toggenburg and Greek Peak had banner years. Granted, Toggenburg may have lost money for them the prior years. Who knows.

The whole thing is just odd. If it’s true that Toggenburg was losing money, and neither businessman felt that they could turn the ski area around, why are both parties so concerned that nobody reopens Toggenburg in the future?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> The whole thing is just odd. If it’s true that Toggenburg was losing money, and neither businessman felt that they could turn the ski area around, why are both parties so concerned that nobody reopens Toggenburg in the future?


I've only read where Peter has said that. Again, there's a number that would change his mind.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> Some older Togg u-tubes made by SU’s Newhouse School students.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/CNY32/playlists


Wow, lots of well-done videos to document a now-lost ski area that was ignored here. Thanks for the link.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> I've only read where Peter has said that. Again, there's a number that would change his mind.



Absolutely, and it's going to cost him a good chunk of change to maintain a vacant ski area until he can dispose of all of the assets. It could take years.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> Absolutely, and it's going to cost him a good chunk of change to maintain a vacant ski area until he can dispose of all of the assets. It could take years.


At $750K for 200 acres ( i think that's what it is) that's not too far off the going rate of $2000/acre for land. Looking at it that way he only needs to recoup 350K, which may not take as long as we think. Scrap is way up, timber is way up, and lifts, snowmaking, and machinery all have value.


----------



## Harvey

A (new) groomer can run 300k. That seems like a pretty good price for what he got. Which is why I can see the covenant as a part of it. It doesn't make sense to sell that stuff for cheap and give a big boost to a competitor.

FWIW, to Emily's point, IMO John and Christine could have been more straightforward in that FB post. 

"NY has lost dozens of ski areas in the last 70 years. It's an extremely tough business to survive in. We're going to do whatever it takes to keep Greek Peak alive. "

Maybe that's not the best way to say it, but I think there is some truth there.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> FWIW, to Emily's point, IMO John and Christine could have been more straightforward in that FB post.


As well as Peter, I mean the "welcome Togg" is still on skicny


----------



## Ripitz

While working as a winemaker I would often hear the saying, “If you want to make a million dollars in the wine business start with 10 million”. Owning a ski area is a huge gamble that few brave souls are willing to take on. Many businesses would be happy with a 10% profit margin. If he has a million dollar business that is breaking even he could easily get that 10% by taking out the competition. Insurance and payroll are most likely the biggest costs. Once he grabs the equipment all that’s left is the land which still could be sold. He’d make his money back in 5 years easy. If this helps keep the other places open then that’s good news. A few remaining ski areas are better than none.


----------



## Harvey

That's a saying in a lot of businesses. The way I heard it "how do you get to be a millionaire in the ski business? Start out as a billionaire."

John and Marc bought Greek because they wanted it to stay open, not because they thought it was a great way to make money.

Who was the member here who seemed like he also bid for GP? I can't remember.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> John and Marc bought Greek because they wanted it to stay open, not because they thought it was a great way to make money.



It's also worth noting that they never took a cent out of the place, and to my knowledge that still hasn't changed. All monies generated are put back into the hill.


Harvey said:


> Who was the member here who seemed like he also bid for GP? I can't remember



I can't remember either. I don't think his group was actually at the auction, rather they were thinking about it. Could be wrong.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Harvey said:


> That's a saying in a lot of businesses. The way I heard it "how do you get to be a millionaire in the ski business? Start out as a billionaire."


I heard that about marriage.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> That's a saying in a lot of businesses. The way I heard it "how do you get to be a millionaire in the ski business? Start out as a billionaire."


“… and know when to quit” is the second half of that. I first heard it regarding the horse business


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> As well as Peter, I mean the "welcome Togg" is still on skicny



Yeah, that is over the top downright lousy. Ski CNY Welcomes Toggenburg. Oh yeah, we are closing the place.


----------



## Emily

That's a good point regarding the value of the grooming equipment and snow guns. $750K may have been a bargain if they can sell or use the balance of the assets quickly. If not, they still have to take care of upkeep, insurance, taxes, utilities, and so on until it's disposed of. Then there's all of the new snow making pipe that the Meyers invested in. I know nothing about pipe value, or if it's worth pulling out.


----------



## Harvey

Emily said:


> I know nothing about pipe value, or if it's worth pulling out.


It's new? It is worth pulling out. Especially if you can use it nearby.

Big Tupper has none left, owners were in financial trouble and sold it all.


----------



## Harvey

If You Haven’t Skied Toggenburg Yet, You Never Will
					

Owner of nearby Labrador and Song ski areas buys and closes neighbor




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## CazMan26

Harvey said:


> If You Haven’t Skied Toggenburg Yet, You Never Will
> 
> 
> Owner of nearby Labrador and Song ski areas buys and closes neighbor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stormskiing.com


That is a great article !


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> If You Haven’t Skied Toggenburg Yet, You Never Will
> 
> 
> Owner of nearby Labrador and Song ski areas buys and closes neighbor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stormskiing.com


Excellent piece, Stu


----------



## Campgottagopee

Both Meier and Harris point out how difficult the ski industry, or biz in general is here NYS. Too make matters worse, our biggest ski areas in NY don't have to worry about making a profit. 

From Stu's article:

"Some years the ski areas operate at a loss. ORDA’s capital budget for fiscal 2021 is $144.5 million, tens of millions more than Vail’s estimated $115-$120 million 2021 spend across its 37 resorts, many of which could slip all three New York ski areas into their pants pockets."

Blows my mind


----------



## Emily

Great job. Stuart! I enjoyed the read, and actually skied at a number of the ski areas that are now closed.

In terms of collusion, Meier and Harris knew exactly what they were doing. While Meier is no ski industry expert, he's not dumb enough to give Harris the opportunity to operate three ski areas. 

On a different topic, does anybody know if GP plans to replace the Alpha slope chair with the used Windham triple this year? Wes mentioned that the major projects this summer were the wedding pavilion, campground, and Alpha chair replacement, but it looks like nothing has been done with the chair yet, and it's now August.


----------



## Harvey

CazMan26 said:


> That is a great article !


The thing that blows my mind is the speed at which he cranks out the awesomeness.

Full disclosure (haha) @Stu is a journalism ringer!


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Some years


?


----------



## Emily

"Meier, who has invested $10 million into Greek Peak since acquiring it, never made comparable investments in Toggenburg – it’s no mystery why the place stagnated. Greek Peak’s investments are still paying dividends – Meier says the ski area added nearly 1,000 new passholders in April alone."

The other reality is that the $10M was a drop in the bucket compared to some of the unfortunate luck that fell on GP in the form of the flood that swept through the base area shortly after Meier and Stemmerman purchased the resort. This allowed their insurance company to pick up the costs of the entire ground-level renovations in the Katalima, Taverna, rental center (including new equipment), tuning/repair shop, Adaptive Center, Juntior Ski/Ride Center, and so on. Insurance also paid for a new main pump house and equipment. Then a few years after that, disaster struck again, which resulted in their insurance carrier replacing the chair 4 pumphouse and equipment. Finally, a fire destroyed their storage barn last year on Page Green Road that landed them a new storage facility right next to the Alpha Slope lift. I don't wish this level of destruction on anybody, but they did end up with millions of dollars in new facilities and equipment, as the result of the multiple disasters.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Who was the member here who seemed like he also bid for GP? I can't remember.



I'd say his current name is Emily


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> "Meier, who has invested $10 million into Greek Peak since acquiring it, never made comparable investments in Toggenburg – it’s no mystery why the place stagnated. Greek Peak’s investments are still paying dividends – Meier says the ski area added nearly 1,000 new passholders in April alone."
> 
> The other reality is that the $10M was a drop in the bucket compared to some of the unfortunate luck that fell on GP in the form of the flood that swept through the base area shortly after Meier and Stemmerman purchased the resort. This allowed their insurance company to pick up the costs of the entire ground-level renovations in the Katalima, Taverna, rental center (including new equipment), tuning/repair shop, Adaptive Center, Juntior Ski/Ride Center, and so on. Insurance also paid for a new main pump house and equipment. Then a few years after that, disaster struck again, which resulted in their insurance carrier replacing the chair 4 pumphouse and equipment. Finally, a fire destroyed their storage barn last year on Page Green Road that landed them a new storage facility right next to the Alpha Slope lift. I don't wish this level of destruction on anybody, but they did end up with millions of dollars in new facilities and equipment, as the result of the multiple disasters.


And it all went back into the ski side of the operations

You just showed your cards ---- welcome back RJ1972


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> I'd say his current name is Emily



I wish I had that kind of money.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> And it all went back into the ski side of the operations
> 
> You just showed your cards ---- welcome back RJ1972



I'm confused???


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> If You Haven’t Skied Toggenburg Yet, You Never Will
> 
> 
> Owner of nearby Labrador and Song ski areas buys and closes neighbor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stormskiing.com


This writer should have avoided the comments about ORDA's capital expenditures. I cannot stand ORDA, but NYS did not spend $144.5 million in the last fiscal year on the ski areas. ORDA is spending money on the other perennial money losers that surround Lake Placid - like Mt Van Hovenburg, Speed Skating and the Jumping Center. While Vail's CAPEX number for 2021 maybe $120 million, here are Vail's CAPEX for the prior 4 years (2020,2019,2018,2017): 


Annual Capital Expenditures (in millions $)​$172.33$192.04$140.61$144.43

Vail spends every year (as they should), unlike ORDA. The ORDA/Vail CAPEX comparison is just not valid. By the way, Vail's CAPEX is down this year due to COVID.

“Why is New York in the business of running ski areas?” said Meier. “They run everything inefficiently – what makes us think they could run a ski area more efficiently? When they have a budget gap, people like us get wiped out, or we have to go beg, borrow, steal money somewhere to do a new lift or a new snowmaking project, but the state bails them out with the new gondola. It's frustrating.”

These whiny comments are just weak excuses when there is failure. NYS has been in the ski business since the late 1940s. Stop crying about it, sell out or change the NYS Constitution. We have all watched ORDA delay replacing lifts by years, sometimes stretching into a decade. Lets not pretend that ORDA has gold plated the ski areas. Gore still has trouble opening Burnt Ridge much before mid-January unless there is big natural snowfall.

Here is more nonsense:
“It's a little disheartening to see [ORDA’s] capital budget,” Harris said. “It's a little disheartening to see their [relatively low] lift ticket prices. It's a little disheartening that they're advertising right in my backyard.”

Again with the capital budget. What this guy does not realize is Gore advertising is competing with SVT for skiers.

The bottom line is skiing is a crap business. I wish NYS was not in the ski business or in the winter sports venue business, but that will never change in our lifetimes. Watching ski area owners whine about NYS is boring and lame, especially when they have been successful in running their ski areas.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> I'm confused???


No you aren't


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> No you aren't



I simply wanted to join in on the Toggenburg/Greek Peak/Song/Lab discussion. If you want me to be somebody else, sorry about that. I can't help you there.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> The bottom line is skiing is a crap business. I wish NYS was not in the ski business or in the winter sports venue business, but that will never change in our lifetimes.



Is there any other business where the NYS directly competes against a sole proprietor?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> I simply wanted to join in on the Toggenburg/Greek Peak/Song/Lab discussion. If you want me to be somebody else, sorry about that. I can't help you there.


LOL


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> The other reality is that the $10M was a drop in the bucket compared to some of the unfortunate luck that fell on GP in the form of the flood that swept through the base area shortly after Meier and Stemmerman purchased the resort. This allowed their insurance company to pick up the costs of the entire ground-level renovations in the Katalima, Taverna, rental center (including new equipment), tuning/repair shop, Adaptive Center, Juntior Ski/Ride Center, and so on. Insurance also paid for a new main pump house and equipment. Then a few years after that, disaster struck again, which resulted in their insurance carrier replacing the chair 4 pumphouse and equipment. Finally, a fire destroyed their storage barn last year on Page Green Road that landed them a new storage facility right next to the Alpha Slope lift. I don't wish this level of destruction on anybody, but they did end up with millions of dollars in new facilities and equipment, as the result of the multiple disasters.


RJ1972 regurgitated this verbatim on the old forum. Must be a coincidence, right?


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Is there any other business where the NYS directly competes against a sole proprietor?


Golf courses, skating rinks, money lending/borrowing, marinas, SUNYs, convention venues, pools, gyms, lakes, commercial RE, parking facilities, I am sure there are more examples.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> RJ1972 regurgitated this verbatim on the old forum. Must be a coincidence, right?



I have no idea. Old forum? I'm new to the forum. I'm just citing facts.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Golf courses, skating rinks, money lending/borrowing, marinas, SUNYs, convention venues, pools, gyms, lakes, commercial RE, parking facilities, I am sure there are more examples.


Lol 
Ok, ok 
I guess these ski area owners are whiny lil bitches ?


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Is there any other business where the NYS directly competes against a sole proprietor?





Emily said:


> I simply wanted to join in on the Toggenburg/Greek Peak/Song/Lab discussion. If you want me to be somebody else, sorry about that. I can't help you there.


Welcome to the forum. I know where camp is coming from. RJ is a no it all with a chip on his shoulder.
You need to let it go. What they did may seem shady to you but why would they open their mouths before it happened? You think they wanted picketers at the closing? 750k was a good deal. I think he can salvage most of that back from sale of equipment. I'n return he signed the agreement not to ever run aski area there. The Greek peek guy could have made out better doing it himself but he didn't want to be the bad guy. His hill has potential. The other two are going to be slow burns until they go out.


----------



## Emily

OK, Campgottogopee and Tjf1967, I just went back and read all of the postings regarding Toggenburg, as well as the 46 pages about GP, and nowhere do I see an RJ1972, so I don't know if you are just messing with me, or if this is an inside joke.

I for one will be the first to admit that I don't know it all, and have been wrong more than a few times. However, I certainly can be opinionated.


----------



## Emily

Tjf1967 said:


> Welcome to the forum. I know where camp is coming from. RJ is a no it all with a chip on his shoulder.
> You need to let it go. What they did may seem shady to you but why would they open their mouths before it happened? You think they wanted picketers at the closing? 750k was a good deal. I think he can salvage most of that back from sale of equipment. I'n return he signed the agreement not to ever run aski area there. The Greek peek guy could have made out better doing it himself but he didn't want to be the bad guy. His hill has potential. The other two are going to be slow burns until they go out.



I know I need to let it go. Greek Peak is my home base, but I feel so bad for the Togg employees and Fabius community. Small ski areas mean so much to local economies, businesses, and residents. 

Take Campgotagopee for example, from the 46 pages of the Greek Peak posts that I skimmed through, he adores his Greek Peak and Virgil Valley. If Greek Peak closed up shop, I'm sure he would blow a gasket.


----------



## ScottySkis

Emily said:


> OK, Campgottogopee and Tjf1967, I just went back and read all of the postings regarding Toggenburg, as well as the 46 pages about GP, and nowhere do I see an RJ1972, so I don't know if you are just messing with me, or if this is an inside joke.
> 
> I for one will be the first to admit that I don't know it all, and have been wrong more than a few times. However, I certainly can be opinionated.


It's a different NY ski blog website
Harvey changed servers last year
I hope I used write word


----------



## Brownski

Emily said:


> However, I certainly can be opinionated.


How do you feel about helmets?


----------



## Harvey

ScottySkis said:


> It's a different NY ski blog website
> Harvey changed servers last year
> I hope I used write word


Yes. 

The archives are here:









The Archives (2010 - 2020)


Links to the forums from 2010-2020




nyskiblog.com





Unfortunately, the way it went down, they are undated, and unsearchable.


----------



## Brownski

Interesting








Snow Ridge on Instagram: "Our family has a strong connection to the winter sports scene in Central New York. The roots of that connection are buried deep within the rolling hills of southern Onondaga County, Toggenburg Mountain in particular. Cyndy w


Snow Ridge shared a post on Instagram: "Our family has a strong connection to the winter sports scene in Central New York. The roots of that connection are buried deep within the rolling hills of southern Onondaga County, Toggenburg Mountain in particular. Cyndy was the sales and marketing...




www.instagram.com


----------



## Emily

OK, everyone. It all makes sense now. I thought you all were just messing around with the newbie. I didn't go through all 53 pages of the archive, but scrolled backwards and saw a few of RJ1972's postings. Maybe on a long flight one of these days, I'll read through some of the archives. Rest assured that I'm not usually as vocal as she/he is. At least I hope that I'm not. If so, please tell me as I certainly do not want to offend anyone.


----------



## Emily

Brownski said:


> How do you feel about helmets?



Touche! 

I'm a helmet wearer, but to each his own.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> This writer should have avoided the comments about ORDA's capital expenditures. I cannot stand ORDA, but NYS did not spend $144.5 million in the last fiscal year on the ski areas. ORDA is spending money on the other perennial money losers that surround Lake Placid - like Mt Van Hovenburg, Speed Skating and the Jumping Center. While Vail's CAPEX number for 2021 maybe $120 million, here are Vail's CAPEX for the prior 4 years (2020,2019,2018,2017):
> 
> 
> Annual Capital Expenditures (in millions $)​$172.33$192.04$140.61$144.43
> 
> Vail spends every year (as they should), unlike ORDA. The ORDA/Vail CAPEX comparison is just not valid. By the way, Vail's CAPEX is down this year due to COVID.
> 
> “Why is New York in the business of running ski areas?” said Meier. “They run everything inefficiently – what makes us think they could run a ski area more efficiently? When they have a budget gap, people like us get wiped out, or we have to go beg, borrow, steal money somewhere to do a new lift or a new snowmaking project, but the state bails them out with the new gondola. It's frustrating.”
> 
> These whiny comments are just weak excuses when there is failure. NYS has been in the ski business since the late 1940s. Stop crying about it, sell out or change the NYS Constitution. We have all watched ORDA delay replacing lifts by years, sometimes stretching into a decade. Lets not pretend that ORDA has gold plated the ski areas. Gore still has trouble opening Burnt Ridge much before mid-January unless there is big natural snowfall.
> 
> Here is more nonsense:
> “It's a little disheartening to see [ORDA’s] capital budget,” Harris said. “It's a little disheartening to see their [relatively low] lift ticket prices. It's a little disheartening that they're advertising right in my backyard.”
> 
> Again with the capital budget. What this guy does not realize is Gore advertising is competing with SVT for skiers.
> 
> The bottom line is skiing is a crap business. I wish NYS was not in the ski business or in the winter sports venue business, but that will never change in our lifetimes. Watching ski area owners whine about NYS is boring and lame, especially when they have been successful in running their ski areas.


I checked out the orda doc Stu linked to and it does seem to say that the budget is 144m. I agree that also seems really high for one year. I hadn't even heard of the capital games in 2023. They are calling it "capital support."





__





Olympic Regional Development Authority | Agency Appropriations | FY 2021 Executive Budget


Appropriations (in HTML format) requested for Olympic Regional Development Authority in the FY 2021 New York State Executive Budget



www.budget.ny.gov


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I checked out the orda doc Stu linked to and it does seem to say that the budget is 144m. I agree that also seems really high for one year. I hadn't even heard of the capital games in 2023. They are calling it "capital support."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Olympic Regional Development Authority | Agency Appropriations | FY 2021 Executive Budget
> 
> 
> Appropriations (in HTML format) requested for Olympic Regional Development Authority in the FY 2021 New York State Executive Budget
> 
> 
> 
> www.budget.ny.gov


It’s the World University Games. 
College kids competitions in the cold.





						Lake Placid 2023 FISU World University Games
					

Join thousands of collegiate athletes from more than 50 countries for 11 days of competition, music, culture, and food. All in beautiful Lake Placid, NY.




					www.lakeplacid2023.com


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> I checked out the orda doc Stu linked to and it does seem to say that the budget is 144m. I agree that also seems really high for one year. I hadn't even heard of the capital games in 2023. They are calling it "capital support."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Olympic Regional Development Authority | Agency Appropriations | FY 2021 Executive Budget
> 
> 
> Appropriations (in HTML format) requested for Olympic Regional Development Authority in the FY 2021 New York State Executive Budget
> 
> 
> 
> www.budget.ny.gov


The number is probably accurate, but the author does not explain that only a small amount of the $144mil is for the 3 alpine areas. With the author's comparison to Vail Inc (alpine ski area company) and the owners' whining, the author makes it seem that ORDA is spending $144mil on Whiteface, Gore and Belleayre. As we all know, that is complete nonsense.


----------



## Benny Profane

x10003q said:


> This writer should have avoided the comments about ORDA's capital expenditures. I cannot stand ORDA, but NYS did not spend $144.5 million in the last fiscal year on the ski areas. ORDA is spending money on the other perennial money losers that surround Lake Placid - like Mt Van Hovenburg, Speed Skating and the Jumping Center. While Vail's CAPEX number for 2021 maybe $120 million, here are Vail's CAPEX for the prior 4 years (2020,2019,2018,2017):
> 
> 
> Annual Capital Expenditures (in millions $)​$172.33$192.04$140.61$144.43
> 
> Vail spends every year (as they should), unlike ORDA. The ORDA/Vail CAPEX comparison is just not valid. By the way, Vail's CAPEX is down this year due to COVID.
> 
> “Why is New York in the business of running ski areas?” said Meier. “They run everything inefficiently – what makes us think they could run a ski area more efficiently? When they have a budget gap, people like us get wiped out, or we have to go beg, borrow, steal money somewhere to do a new lift or a new snowmaking project, but the state bails them out with the new gondola. It's frustrating.”
> 
> These whiny comments are just weak excuses when there is failure. NYS has been in the ski business since the late 1940s. Stop crying about it, sell out or change the NYS Constitution. We have all watched ORDA delay replacing lifts by years, sometimes stretching into a decade. Lets not pretend that ORDA has gold plated the ski areas. Gore still has trouble opening Burnt Ridge much before mid-January unless there is big natural snowfall.
> 
> Here is more nonsense:
> “It's a little disheartening to see [ORDA’s] capital budget,” Harris said. “It's a little disheartening to see their [relatively low] lift ticket prices. It's a little disheartening that they're advertising right in my backyard.”
> 
> Again with the capital budget. What this guy does not realize is Gore advertising is competing with SVT for skiers.
> 
> The bottom line is skiing is a crap business. I wish NYS was not in the ski business or in the winter sports venue business, but that will never change in our lifetimes. Watching ski area owners whine about NYS is boring and lame, especially when they have been successful in running their ski areas.


The flow of money to ORDA may be reduced pretty severely with Cuomo gone, and it looks like he's doomed, although the guy is hard to throw dirt on. Unless we get lucky and the next guv likes winter sports and the workfare that it inspires.


----------



## Ripitz

Benny Profane said:


> looks like he's doomed,


Who knows, maybe he’ll slam a gondi up from Pine Hill to distract from his bad hand habits.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Who knows, maybe he’ll slam a gondi up from Pine Hill to distract from his bad hand habits.


Lol 
That was a good one ?


----------



## wonderpony

I drove by there this afternoon. There are cheesy For Sale signs tacked on to the big sign by the highway.


----------



## Tjf1967

wonderpony said:


> I drove by there this afternoon. There are cheesy For Sale signs tacked on to the big sign by the highway.


Maybe take a hike up there and get yourself a souvenir. You can give it to one of your grand kids and tell them about the old times. Trail sign.


----------



## Harvey

wonderpony said:


> There are cheesy For Sale signs tacked on to the big sign by the highway.


Like to see that.


----------



## Emily

wonderpony said:


> I drove by there this afternoon. There are cheesy For Sale signs tacked on to the big sign by the highway.



Peter didn’t waste any time.

It would be interesting if a group of Togg enthusiasts got together to make an offer for twice what Harris paid for it with no restrictions to see if he would flinch. The only thing we don’t know is if the covenant was required by Meier as a condition of sale to Harris.

What is interesting is that Togg sold 3500 season passes when Meier and Stemmerman bought Togg, and Greek Peak sold 4700.

In addition, at the time Stemmerman and Meier made it clear the smaller resort (Togg) is sound financially, profitable and well-run.

“We don’t believe this is a distressed asset or a company that’s in need of a turnaround,” Meier said. “They’ve got a great tight-knit, well-run company, and we just want to try and improve it and grow it and combine it with Greek Peak so that we can dominate the Syracuse market.”


----------



## Harvey

Emily said:


> The only thing we don’t know is if the covenant was required by Meier as a condition of sale to Harris.


I am curious about this.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> Peter didn’t waste any time.
> 
> It would be interesting if a group of Togg enthusiasts got together to make an offer for twice what Harris paid for it with no restrictions to see if he would flinch. The only thing we don’t know is if the covenant was required by Meier as a condition of sale to Harris.


It's for sale so there's no reason they can't.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> It's for sale so there's no reason they can't.


Camp if ya don’t wanna spin a lift ya can always run snowmobiles to the top and/or ski up. 
I’d hitch a ride and bring beer for ya.


----------



## XTski

Campgottagopee said:


> I read what Emily wrote differently. She used words like doubtful, hard to believe, and I've been wrong before. Those words and statements tell me, like the rest of us, that we were all hopeful that the rumors of Togg being closed and turned into housing was false. I don't equate that with blindsided as nobody is in shock over this. Just pissed.


she had been following for years and just decided to post saying she doubted what I had written, hard to believe etc shows to me that it was shocking to some without a doubt, and yes some were obviously blindsided, I have clients who buy and save green spaces, seeing how many local families were effected I believe their could have been alternative solution , especially at such a low cost, 750.000, being hopeful is nice but being able to see ahead of the game and know that theirs some people who don’t give a crap about the people who live near Tog could have possibly saved this property, I wonder about any house/property sales that may have went down around Tog, and purchases near the Song, Lab and Greak before the info about the covenant became public
personally I had signed a no compete agreement with a top 20 (in the USA) builder that I had no problem violating with the help of clients (lawyers) after I left that company


----------



## Campgottagopee

XTski said:


> she had been following for years and just decided to post saying she doubted what I had written, hard to believe etc shows to me that it was shocking to some without a doubt, and yes some were obviously blindsided, I have clients who buy and save green spaces, seeing how many local families were effected I believe their could have been alternative solution , especially at such a low cost, 750.000, being hopeful is nice but being able to see ahead of the game and know that theirs some people who don’t give a crap about the people who live near Tog could have possibly saved this property, I wonder about any house/property sales that may have went down around Tog, and purchases near the Song, Lab and Greak before the info about the covenant became public
> personally I had signed a no compete agreement with a top 20 (in the USA) builder that I had no problem violating with the help of clients (lawyers) after I left that company


Go for it!
It's for sale


----------



## XTski

Campgottagopee said:


> Go for it!
> It's for sale


Too late! But if we get the word out that big $ is available for stuff like this then maybe it can help another small hill, Kind of like a 66 acer landfill that was for sale for $9 million , it sold before a client who would have turned it into a park with a ski slope etc had a chance to evaluate and place a bid, I drove with him to the top of the property while he was talking about his ideas to finance the use of the park for years down the line, instead a jewler bought it and will put houses there, my clients do the opposite of what they did to Tog. 
having taught local kids from schools who could only learn to ski because it was part of the schools program I know the importance of these small hills, I remember catching the school bus to go skiing, little Willard mountain felt huge! I noticed a shit load of people were pissed off about what happened ; and about the same 2 who kept giving excuses on a syracuse social media thread,


----------



## Campgottagopee

XTski said:


> Too late!


Again, there's a number that he'll sell it for and make that covenant go away. Happens all the time. It ain't too late, for sale signs are up now.


----------



## Campgottagopee

XTski said:


> having taught local kids from schools who could only learn to ski because it was part of the schools program I know the importance of these small hills, I remember catching the school bus to go skiing, little Willard mountain felt huge! I noticed a shit load of people were pissed off about what happened ; and about the same 2 who kept giving excuses on a syracuse social media thread,


Luckily those in and around Cuse still have options in Lab, Song, Greek. Most don't even have 1 ski hill within 30 miles, we have 3.


----------



## Brownski

Yeah. I’ve seen people say that the covenant is already in place but that’s not how I read it. I got the impression the covenant would come into it when the land was disposed of after the infrastructure was stripped out. Can somebody clarify? I’m sure if $2 million could be raised, Harris would move mountains to make the deal happen.


----------



## Brownski

On the other hand, as an outsider, I don’t really see how the region is losing that much, as Camp pointed out. There lots of options still. If I had 2 mil to throw at the ski world, I think it would be better spent bringing Sterling Forest back. That might impact the sport. As much as the Tog homers are gonna miss the place and I feel bad for them, a good feeder hill closer to a big population center would be a better candidate for some charity.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Yeah. I’ve seen people say that the covenant is already in place but that’s not how I read it. I got the impression the covenant would come into it when the land was disposed of after the infrastructure was stripped ou



That's how I read it as well. Even if the covenant was already there, money = power. I was on the sideline of a buy/sell with a covenant. Eventually, enough cash was tossed at it that the covenant magically disappeared.


----------



## Emily

The covenant is the perplexing part, as we don’t know the details.

I am completely speculating, but would have to think that Meier required the covenant to prevent Harris from operating three ski areas, as well as preventing a third-party from reopening it if sold.

Then again, when Stu asked Harris if there was any possibility of re-opening Togg should crowds at Lab and Song warrant it, he said that nothing is off the table.

Harris didn’t really pay much for the place considering that he is getting snow cats and snow making equipment out of it. That right there might exceed $750,000 in value.

Given that for sale signs are up, it’s likely just a matter of time before we hear how much Harris is asking for it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harris should open the Foggy Goggle. The place was bangin and certainly has a following.


----------



## Tjf1967

I'm down for a party at the foggy goggle


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> Harris should open the Foggy Goggle. The place was bangin and certainly has a following.



That’s an interesting idea, but I wonder how business would be without the skier traffic. It would be an interesting proposition if Hickey wanted to still run it.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> I’m sure if $2 million could be raised, Harris would move mountains to make the deal happen.


Peter’s Swiss ancestry . They speak 3 languages not counting money.


----------



## Harvey

I reached out to Peter last week at the same time as Stu. I left the heavy lifting up to him because I knew he'd be much faster. Peter eventually responded saying call me any time. I asked him about the covenant (via email), no response.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> . I asked him about the covenant (via email), no response.


It’s moot anyway. Nobody’s going to do anything.


----------



## Campgottagopee

With it's CNY location, Togg could become the mecca of action sports in NYS.

Bring in RA to design/ build the mountain biking. Have the Ditch Bangers design / build the XC dirtbike - wheeler track, and #14 design / build the motorcross and snowcross track. All while the Foggy Goggle is slingin beers and serving up steaks.


----------



## CazMan26

Campgottagopee said:


> With it's CNY location, Togg could become the mecca of action sports in NYS.
> 
> Bring in RA to design/ build the mountain biking. Have the Ditch Bangers design / build the XC dirtbike - wheeler track, and #14 design / build the motorcross and snowcross track. All while the Foggy Goggle is slingin beers and serving up steaks.



A few years before the Wilsons sold Labrador away to Peter, Eric Wilson designed and built a full Motocross racing facility on the lower slopes of Badger and Razorback trails at Lab. As far as anyone could tell it was very popular on weekends with the racers having the current parking lot for camper and trailer parking and the Last Run open for basic beer and food. If anyone now would notice that the bottom lift house on the rope tow is two stories high, that served as the observation / start house ! If you have Google Earth, etc. you can still see the out line of the track. This could be brought back at Toggenburg. Who knows ??


----------



## Campgottagopee

CazMan26 said:


> A few years before the Wilsons sold Labrador away to Peter, Eric Wilson designed and built a full Motocross racing facility on the lower slopes of Badger and Razorback trails at Lab. As far as anyone could tell it was very popular on weekends with the racers having the current parking lot for camper and trailer parking and the Last Run open for basic beer and food. If anyone now would notice that the bottom lift house on the rope tow is two stories high, that served as the observation / start house ! If you have Google Earth, etc. you can still see the out line of the track. This could be brought back at Toggenburg. Who knows ??



YES! I was being serious.

I just worked the Ditch Banger XC race at GP --- there were 1000's of people there who camped from Friday - Sunday. It had to be a real good weekend for them. There's certainly potential.


----------



## tirolski

The Frozen Ocean is doing it somewhat nearby between a couple finger lakes in Cayuga County.
They have outdoor concerts too.









						About — Frozen Ocean
					

About




					www.frozen-ocean.com


----------



## Ripitz

Speaking of rippin’ up a closed ski area, I’ve seen some sort of motorcross event at Brodie in Mass.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> The Frozen Ocean is doing it somewhat nearby between a couple finger lakes in Cayuga County.
> They have outdoor concerts too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About — Frozen Ocean
> 
> 
> About
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.frozen-ocean.com


Yes, similar, but limited.

Togg has 200 acres which will bring in the XC races and Snowcross. Not to mention the DH biking.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Lets not pretend that ORDA has gold plated the ski areas


I was thinking about this. What they do have is no accountability, meaning if they have a massive loss in any one year they get bailed out. That doesn't happen when a ski area is privately owned, they suck it up or go broke.


----------



## Brownski

I agree with both of you. It seems like Orda pays gold-plaited prices for tin foil products. Imagine what Killington could do with that budget


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> I was thinking about this. What they do have is no accountability, meaning if they have a massive loss in any one year they get bailed out. That doesn't happen when a ski area is privately owned, they suck it up or go broke.


There is accountability, it is just that the ORDA money losers are mostly the other venues. Maybe these other venues should be run by the Federal government since they actually serve so few people, but are important for national teams.
When I used to pay attention to the ORDA financial reports, Gore was almost always cash flow positive, WF was mostly cash flow positive and Belle was not yet part of ORDA. NYS cannot let the 3 ski areas/assets fail. People forget how long it takes for ORDA to actually implement the Unit Management Plans because the money comes erratically from NYS. 

Belleayre (1949), WF (1957) and Gore (1963) have been operating in NYS for many decades. I do not think NYS should be in the ski business, but here we are and it will never change. Ski area owners complaining about the NYS areas is like complaining about heat from the sun. It is nonsense. The NYS/ORDA areas have been operating well before most current owners were even in the ski business. If you do not like the ski business (yes, it sucks), sell your area.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> NYS cannot let the 3 ski areas/assets fail.


Too big to fail? I'm guessing that's the leverage that drives any independent ski area bonkers.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Too big to fail? I'm guessing that's the leverage that drives any independent ski area bonkers.


I agree. For that matter, why draw the line at one small and two medium/big ski areas? If we want to support the sport, why not have the state buy and reopen half a dozen or so defunct feeder hills plus Bobcat, Hickory etc… It makes as much sense as the Belle gondola.


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> complaining about the NYS areas is like complaining about heat from the sun


It sure is hot today


Campgottagopee said:


> Too big to fail?


As we all know, many of our private areas have closed and many more will. Sure the government is wasteful when running a business. If it means there are three strong areas that have staying power then I’m all in. $150 million? Who cares? How much more money does the individual taxpayer pay in taxes to have them? 1$? 5$? $10? It’s still probably less than the price of a sandwich at one of their ski lodges.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> As we all know, many of our private areas have closed and many more will. Sure the government is wasteful when running a business. If it means there are three strong areas that have staying power then I’m all in. $150 million? Who cares? How much more money does the individual taxpayer pay in taxes to have them? 1$? 5$? $10? It’s still probably less then the price of a sandwich at one of their ski lodges.


I'd rather see a level playing field and lower taxes, even if it is only 5 bucks. It's my 5 bucks.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Too big to fail? I'm guessing that's the leverage that drives any independent ski area bonkers.


Do not misquote what I said. By NYS law, they have to be maintained and operated by NYS. It has zero to do with size. NYS cannot sell them or lease them.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Do not misquote what I said. By NYS law, they have to be maintained and operated by NYS. It has zero to do with size. NYS cannot sell them or lease them.


No shit? I didn't know that. That makes it even worse!


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> I'd rather see a level playing field and lower taxes, even if it is only 5 bucks. It's my 5 bucks.


More like $.00000000005


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> More like $.00000000005


I'll take it


----------



## Ripitz

A level playing field means Vail would swoop in and buy Gore and Whiteface. Tickets would be a gazillion dollars and the lines a gazillion miles long. No thanks.


----------



## Harvey

My guess:

If you start with the idea that you want the economic activity in the Adks and Cats, then the money spent on ski areas is probably coming back in taxes etc. If the SKI3 areas were gone, many more would be on unemployment year round and many would probably move away. 

The Adks and Cats are not the same.

If Belle was to go, much, but certainly not all, of the activity would get shifted to Hunter, Windham and Plattekill. Gore and WF are different, you'd lose that economic base.

If (somehow, yea yea I know just go with it) the areas were to become truly private, things would change in other ways. Slopeside lodging, more steady and reasoned capex investment. Yadi yada.

For my own selfish reasons I like it the way it is in the Adks. Slow progress, old schoolish, no slopeside, pretty uncrowded really.


----------



## G.ski

As a NYS taxpayer my entire life I'm quite happy that ORDA uses some of my tax money to operate ski areas, and I'd have no problem with them spending more.

IMO the best use of my tax money I can think of.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Slow progress, old schoolish, no slopeside, pretty uncrowded really.


Reasonable pricing, low key, no clown show “village”, everything painted state park brown… love it! Same reasons why I don’t go to Vermont unless it’s Magic or Bromely.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> If (somehow, yea yea I know just go with it) the areas were to become truly private, things would change in other ways. Slopeside lodging, more steady and reasoned capex investment. Yadi yada.


Which would also create more jobs for people who live there


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Which would also create more jobs for people who live there


No doubt. Like I said.... "selfish."

Lucky for me I like nordic. Unless the snow disappears all together I'll have fun.

Even if it does, there is MTB.

The smoke is harsh, hope we get that figured out. Wife thinks I'm a big baby with my smoke whining.


----------



## Emily

While not the same as state owned and funded ski areas, let’s not forget that Senator Schumer was able to obtain close to $2 million in funds from the FDIC to keep Greek Peak afloat after the prior owners filed for bankruptcy.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> Greek Peak afloat after the prior owners filed for bankruptcy.


Filed for BK, again.

Be nice if they didn't have to worry, like ORDA, about going broke, eh RJ?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> My guess:
> 
> The Adks and Cats are not the same.
> 
> For my own selfish reasons I like it the way it is in the Adks. Slow progress, old schoolish, no slopeside, pretty uncrowded really.


Daks got the blue line with a lot more boonies it it.
It’s old school all right and there aren’t many of em.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> There is accountability, it is just that the ORDA money losers are mostly the other venues. Maybe these other venues should be run by the Federal government since they actually serve so few people, but are important for national teams.


How about the US Olympic Committee and the planet's olympic committee kickin in some $ to those things?

They won’t even let Harvey post Olympic badminton videos when he wants to, so it seems like we’ll have to wait.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> Filed for BK, again.
> 
> Be nice if they didn't have to worry, like ORDA, about going broke, eh RJ?


Enough with the whole RJ thing. A fellow blog member who I’ve skied with recognized my name and reached out to me a few days ago to explain the whole RJ confusion and how the two of you used to go head to head. I was also told that I shouldn’t have said anything disparaging about the Meier’s, as that is treading on sacred ground in your eyes. For that I apologize. 

I don’t mind if you and I don’t always agree, but please stop with the RJ name calling nonsense. Unlike you, I registered with my first name.


----------



## Tjf1967

Emily said:


> While not the same as state owned and funded ski areas, let’s not forget that Senator Schumer was able to obtain close to $2 million in funds from the FDIC to keep Greek Peak afloat after the prior owners filed for bankruptcy.


Between loan relief and an the insurance claims sounds like GP has gotten quite a few dollars for pennies. Any guess how much they were able to collect?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Between loan relief and an the insurance claims sounds like GP has gotten quite a few dollars for pennies. Any guess how much they were able to collect?


Some would like us to believe that's true when in fact it's the opposite. Schumer gave them a 2 million dollar loan, not loan forgiveness. I promise you whatever ins monies they got they spent 2 - 3 times that in rebuilding.


----------



## Emily

The $2 million in financing occurred as part of the bankruptcy filing while Greek Peak was operating under receivership. This was never repaid as part of the asset auction.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> The $2 million in financing occurred as part of the bankruptcy filing while Greek Peak was operating under receivership. This was never repaid as part of the asset auction.


You are correct. My bad. Just another loan that the previous owners didn't pay back.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> You are correct. My bad. Just another loan that the previous owners didn't pay back.



Why the negativity towards the prior owners? They kept the resort afloat for more than 50 years. They turned the place into a four seasons resort by adding the lake, hotel, and adventure center. As a result, their wedding business exploded into nearly 100 weddings a year.

You seem to really think highly of the current owners, but they couldn’t keep Toggenburg open for six years.


----------



## Emily

Tjf1967 said:


> Between loan relief and an the insurance claims sounds like GP has gotten quite a few dollars for pennies. Any guess how much they were able to collect?



That’s a really good question, but I don’t believe that information was ever made public.

The base area flood alone was extremely significant as it impacted nearly all of their buildings and equipment. Even the dam in the creek was replaced.

My guess is that it was many millions of dollars, but that’s a very open ended response on my part.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> Why the negativity towards the prior owners?


Al is great man, a true visionary and we certainly wouldn't have GP with out him and all of his hard work. For me I didn't care for some of his business practices, and I'll leave it at that. 


Emily said:


> They kept the resort afloat for more than 50 years.


Yeah, it floated ---- more like beat it into the ground 


Emily said:


> They turned the place into a four seasons resort by adding the lake, hotel, and adventure center.


LOL, sure did.


Emily said:


> You seem to really think highly of the current owners


I do. John is a great guy, pays the taxes on the place, doesn't borrow over his head, and he's in it for the future not his pocket. He doesn't take a penny out of the place as any and all monies generated go directly back into the hill. 

I know John well enough to yuck it up with him at the bar over a couple beers. My connection with him is we have friends in common, really good friends of whom I love like brothers. Mess with one of us you'll get us all type of thing.



Emily said:


> but they couldn’t keep Toggenburg open for six years


It was open, for all 6 years they owned it. Just sayin'. They were approached with an offer to unload it so they did.


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> It was open, for all 6 years they owned it. Just sayin'. They were approached with an offer to unload it so they did.


If the 750k they got for it gets #4 fixed and the lift from Windham installed it’ll be hard to criticize in the long run.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> If the 750k they got for it gets #4 fixed and the lift from Windham installed it’ll be hard to criticize in the long run.



I'm certain it will get done but I don't know of the timetable. Obviously the sooner the better as #4 is my favorite chair on the entire hill. We all want it replaced!!


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> If the 750k they got for it ... it’ll be hard to criticize in the long run.


$750k seems like Peter got it cheap if it’s including land, equipment, Foggy Google and the covenant.
Folks are paying more for ski condos outwest.


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> $750k seems like Peter got it cheap if it’s including land, equipment, Foggy Google and the covenant.
> Folks are paying more for ski condos outwest.


What about the nuns?


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> What about the nuns?


Don’t know nothing about no nuns other than the ones who’er related to me.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee: I appreciate your candidness and openness. It definitely lets me see where you are coming from.

I don’t disagree that business decisions have been interesting over the years, but as you said, Al certainly was a dreamer and not afraid to take risks,

Do you remember the dude ranch and the bisons? That was interesting. Then there was the swimming pool in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## Emily

tirolski said:


> $750k seems like Peter got it cheap if it’s including land, equipment, Foggy Google and the covenant.
> Folks are paying more for ski condos outwest.



I would have to agree with that, and as I said previously, just the snow cats and snow making equipment likely exceeded that amount of money. Of course, now the hard part is to dispose of the ski area land. It’s not exactly located in a prime real estate area.

If it’s true that the Meiers were losing money on Toggenburg, maybe they were happy to dump it and take a loss on the sale.

I wonder what the Hickey’s think about all of this. Might they have bought it back for $750k if given the option???


----------



## Emily

Brownski said:


> If the 750k they got for it gets #4 fixed and the lift from Windham installed it’ll be hard to criticize in the long run.



Replacing lifts will be tough, as these are big ticket items that makes snow making pipe replacement and snow gun purchases look like chump change.

The challenge is that their newest Hall lift is chair five, and short of a complete overhaul, that lift is nearly shot.

I wish they would not have purchased the Windham lift. We saw what happened the last time they purchased a used lift. Bite the bullet, buy new lifts, and be done with it.


----------



## Brownski

There’s nothing wrong with buying used lifts. New ones are very very expensive. The Windham lift especially should be fine, as long as they don’t fuck it up during installation. Even lift 4 is salvageable if they find the right parts and hire the right company to fix it. 750k might go a long way towards that but I don’t think it’s gonna buy a brand new replacement.


----------



## Harvey

Togg had/has two Halls. 

Laz wanted that Windham lift but the price was too high.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Laz wanted that Windham lift but the price was too high.


I remember it from Windham. It was a backup to their main quad and hardly ever ran unless it was busy or the quad broke down. I bet it’s in great shape and probably long enough to replace #4 which seemed like a disaster waiting to happen when I was up there last year. It seemed like they could only keep it running if they kept it at full speed.


----------



## Emily

Brownski said:


> I remember it from Windham. It was a backup to their main quad and hardly ever ran unless it was busy or the quad broke down. I bet it’s in great shape and probably long enough to replace #4 which seemed like a disaster waiting to happen when I was up there last year. It seemed like they could only keep it running if they kept it at full speed.


You raised a point that I was thinking about. Why take a rather long lift and use it to replace an extremely short lift. I know lift tower heights are designed for a specific ski area, but why not use the Windham lift to replace chair 4, or even one of their other lifts. I realize that chair three is shot. That part I totally understand. Of course if they did that, they would have to re-claim the chairs that they placed on chair five.

Do we know how much a brand fixed quad costs compared to a high speed quad? I don’t recall how much Greek Peak paid for Visions.


----------



## Emily

Brownski said:


> There’s nothing wrong with buying used lifts. New ones are very very expensive. The Windham lift especially should be fine, as long as they don’t fuck it up during installation. Even lift 4 is salvageable if they find the right parts and hire the right company to fix it. 750k might go a long way towards that but I don’t think it’s gonna buy a brand new replacement.



I have a crazy feeling that they are going to do the installation themselves, otherwise they would have a contractor in there now working on it. Wes said that it was going to happen this summer, but maybe it’s been put on hold again in order to finish up the campground and wedding pavilion.


----------



## MarzNC

Emily said:


> Do we know how much a brand fixed quad costs compared to a high speed quad?


Not exactly the same but Waterville Valley opted to move an old triple for the new peak instead of buying a new detachable quad. The differences in cost was a few millions bucks.


----------



## Brownski

I couldn’t come up with real numbers but a new lift is way more than a used lift and a detachable is way more than a fixed grip - both to build and to maintain. They can do a lot to make a lift fit the terrain. They can pour bigger or smaller foundations to adjust height for instance. If you look at the towers on chair 2 you’ll notice that some of them have an extra section that obviously wasn’t original bolted to the bottom.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> Do you remember the dude ranch and the bisons? That was interesting. Then there was the swimming pool in the middle of nowhere.


 Beefalo ... Lol, yep I remember all of that. What a hoot! 

You mentioned GP is your home hill. How far do you travel to get here?


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> There is accountability, it is just that the ORDA money losers are mostly the other venues. Maybe these other venues should be run by the Federal government since they actually serve so few people, but are important for national teams.


When is the high speed train coming to the Daks?
China put one in for the 22’ Olympics scheduled there this winter.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> Might they have bought it back for $750k if given the option???


Do we know for sure the sale price was $750K? Not that it would matter, more curious than anything.


Emily said:


> If it’s true that the Meiers were losing money on Toggenburg


Were they? I haven't read all the articles on the sale but the couple that I did didn't mention the reason for the sale. The only thing I read was they were approached with an offer and they took the deal.


----------



## Emily

There was an article on it not being profitable, but I couldn’t find it. This is as close as I could find:

“Money saved from Toggenburg expenditures, which was not profitable, will be used for existing and new projects at Greek Peak such as a lookout wedding venue that will be able to hold 300 to 400 people and provide views of the mountain and Hope Lake, Meier said.”

The $750,000 sale price has been floating around all over the place, but I don’t recall anything being said definitively by either the buyer or seller.


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> When is the high speed train coming to the Daks?
> China put one in for the 22’ Olympics scheduled there this winter.


They built that venue in a place where IT DOESN'T SNOW. Notice all the brown in the winter "practice" clips? So, great, they'll not only have a crumbling ghost facility in ten years, you'll be able to get there on a shiny fast train. Just like to the millions of empty condo towers scattered all over the country in ghost cities.

I'm proud not to have watched one second of this last Olympics. It's become such an absurdity. Such greed and corruption. So maybe it should permanently reside in China. Would fit in well.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> lookout wedding venue


That thing is going to be beautiful!!


----------



## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> Do we know for sure the sale price was $750K? Not that it would matter, more curious than anything.
> 
> Were they? I haven't read all the articles on the sale but the couple that I did didn't mention the reason for the sale. The only thing I read was they were approached with an offer and they took the deal.


750 was reported in at least one of the stories. The only reason given was that Meir wants to concentrate on Greek. Nobody said Tog was making or losing money either way.


----------



## Emily

Brownski said:


> Nobody said Tog was making or losing money either way.



“Money saved from Toggenburg expenditures, which was not profitable, will be used for existing and new projects at Greek Peak such as a lookout wedding venue that will be able to hold 300 to 400 people and provide views of the mountain and Hope Lake, Meier said.”


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> “Money saved from Toggenburg expenditures, which was not profitable, will be used for existing and new projects at Greek Peak such as a lookout wedding venue that will be able to hold 300 to 400 people and provide views of the mountain and Hope Lake, Meier said.”


To be fair, "not profitable" doesn't equate to "losing money".

Anyway, how far of a drive do you have to ski your home hill?


----------



## Brownski

Emily said:


> “Money saved from Toggenburg expenditures, which was not profitable, will be used for existing and new projects at Greek Peak such as a lookout wedding venue that will be able to hold 300 to 400 people and provide views of the mountain and Hope Lake, Meier said.”


I guess I stand corrected, though that does leave the possibility that it’s breaking even or just making a little.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> To be fair, "not profitable" doesn't equate to "losing money".
> 
> Anyway, how far of a drive do you have to ski your home hill?



That’s a good point about the profitability. I could’ve sworn there was another article more detailed, but could not find it.

We used to own a condo at Greek Peak for many years, but sold it and moved on to other mountains. We ended up missing the place so came back to Greek Peak. We were going to buy another condo, but instead simply come up on the weekends and grab a hotel room. We are up just about every weekend during ski season.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> I have a crazy feeling that they are going to do the installation themselves, otherwise they would have a contractor in there now working on it. Wes said that it was going to happen this summer, but maybe it’s been put on hold again in order to finish up the campground and wedding pavilion.


Guessing that the pandemic may also be a factor in the delaying of the lift installation. It's certainly delayed virtually everything else (shutdowns, worker shortages, parts etc etc), so it makes sense to me that could be playing a factor. I'd be surprised if GP installed that themselves. We used to do things that way, stepping over dollars to pick up pennies, but it seems to me those days are behind us.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> Guessing that the pandemic may also be a factor in the delaying of the lift installation. It's certainly delayed virtually everything else (shutdowns, worker shortages, parts etc etc), so it makes sense to me that could be playing a factor. I'd be surprised if GP installed that themselves. We used to do things that way, stepping over dollars to pick up pennies, but it seems to me those days are behind us.



I sure hope you are right, and the days of Greek Peak trying to save a few bucks are behind us. Hopefully they learned their lesson with the chair 1A installation.

I have a feeling their priorities are on the wedding pavilion and campground this year. It looks like they’re focusing on that side of the street.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> I sure hope you are right, and the days of Greek Peak trying to save a few bucks are behind us. Hopefully they learned their lesson with the chair 1A installation.


I'm going by what improvements I've seen them make since the change in ownership. What they've done has been top notch, imo.
I'll snap some pics of the wedding pavilion over the weekend. If this thing is a pavilion I'd love to move in!! Lol


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm going by what improvements I've seen them make since the change in ownership. What they've done has been top notch, imo.
> I'll snap some pics of the wedding pavilion over the weekend. If this thing is a pavilion I'd love to move in!! Lol


Yes, please share some photos if you get a chance. We saw some of the initial construction in early June, but I’m sure it is coming together much more than what we saw. I will say that it is in a fantastic location in terms of scenery.

Do you know if Greek Peak is doing the actual construction, or if the project has been subcontracted?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> Yes, please share some photos if you get a chance. We saw some of the initial construction in early June, but I’m sure it is coming together much more than what we saw. I will say that it is in a fantastic location in terms of scenery.
> 
> Do you know if Greek Peak is doing the actual construction, or if the project has been subcontracted?


It's been subcontracted out. 
Pics later today ?


----------



## Campgottagopee

I didn't make it over there this weekend but here are couple from a week or so ago.


----------



## Emily

Wow! That is an impressive structure in a beautiful location.

Thanks for posting the pics.


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Greek Peak owners focus on future of Virgil mountain resort after selling Toggenburg


Greek Peak owners' sole focus is on Virgil ski and mountain resort after selling Toggenburg Mountain in Fabius.



www.pressconnects.com


----------



## Emily

"


NYSkiBlog said:


> Greek Peak owners focus on future of Virgil mountain resort after selling Toggenburg
> 
> 
> Greek Peak owners' sole focus is on Virgil ski and mountain resort after selling Toggenburg Mountain in Fabius.
> 
> 
> 
> www.pressconnects.com



*"most well-maintained lift"*

If Greek Peak has the most well-maintained lifts according to Meier, I'd hate to ski where they have the worst maintained lifts. 

*"John Meier said this summer they are working on three new additions, starting with a $2 million multipurpose facility on Hope Lake, an RV campground that features sewer, water, and electric hookups, as well as remodeling Carver's Steakhouse."*

I don't see any mention of work being done on the ski area side of the valley--only work on projects that they began a number of months ago.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> I don't see any mention of work being done on the ski area side of the valley--only work on projects that they began a number of months ago.



Unfortunately they have to pay attention, maintain, and improve on that almost $50 million hotel that never should've been built.


----------



## Emily

Campgottagopee said:


> Unfortunately they have to pay attention, maintain, and improve on that almost $50 million hotel that never should've been built.



The hotel is certainly gorgeous, but a risky investment for sure. I suppose they see additional opportunities with the already 100+ weddings a year they host, as well as function/meeting space. In terms of the campground, I'm not sure about that idea.

It's just disappointing that they don't hire someone to install the lift they purchased from Windham a couple of years ago. I don't know what they are waiting for. The Alpha chair is beyond shot.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> but a risky investment for sure


Quite the understatement!! 


Emily said:


> It's just disappointing that they don't hire someone to install the lift they purchased from Windham a couple of years ago. I don't know what they are waiting for. The Alpha chair is beyond shot.


In time. I'd rather wait and have it done right, and not with the majority of monies being borrowed. Kinda like that $50 million hotel that everyone knew would sink them.


----------



## Thacheronix

Emily said:


> risky


term implies a chance for success


----------



## Campgottagopee

Emily said:


> In terms of the campground, I'm not sure about that idea.


Camping is up 500% 








Campsite Bookings Soar 500% For 2021: Where’s Best To Reserve Now?


Many people have chosen to spend summer 2020 on campsites and in RVs but bookings for summer 2021 are rocketing, up across EU and U.S. campgrounds by as much as 500%. And new research highlights the 10 best and 10 worst states to choose when picking where to camp.




www.forbes.com


----------



## Tjf1967

Campgottagopee said:


> Quite the understatement!!
> 
> In time. I'd rather wait and have it done right, and not with the majority of monies being borrowed. Kinda like that $50 million hotel that everyone knew would sink them.





Thacheronix said:


> term implies a chance for success


At 8 million seems like a much better deal


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Camping is up 500%


Camp says "Camping is up 500%".

Ya blowin yer own horn, er what?


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Camp says "Camping is up 500%".
> 
> Ya blowin yer own horn, er what?


FKNA


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> Camping is up 500%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Campsite Bookings Soar 500% For 2021: Where’s Best To Reserve Now?
> 
> 
> Many people have chosen to spend summer 2020 on campsites and in RVs but bookings for summer 2021 are rocketing, up across EU and U.S. campgrounds by as much as 500%. And new research highlights the 10 best and 10 worst states to choose when picking where to camp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


I bet this is having an impact on the wildfire season out here. California is seriously fucked right now.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> I bet this is having an impact on the wildfire season out here. California is seriously fucked right now.


I'm sure it is


----------



## gorgonzola

and vice versa... in looking into and booking our Grand Canyon trip all campgrounds are either no fires or charcoal only

the last two summers have been difficult to book sites...


----------



## Emily

Trying to buy an RV has become next to impossible. We have several colleagues and friends who purchased them last year and this. It was slim pickings at nearly list price. Of course, like anything, it too will pass.

It's too bad Greek Peak couldn't get their campground open this summer, as they originally planned. Although, I think I would have rather had a new lift than a campground, or at least some paint on the lifts to freshen them up and keep them from totally rusting.


----------



## Emily

Thacheronix said:


> term implies a chance for success



It's hard to say how successful it is. It's helping to pull in the wedding crowd, as Greek Peak never hosted 100+ weddings prior to the hotel. The parking lot is always full on weekends during the winter. Plus, it's a timeshare, so some of the costs are borne by the timeshare owners, assuming they have sold a decent amount of timeshares. Granted, the hotel is a little over the top for Virgil, NY.


----------



## tirolski

Emily said:


> Granted, the hotel is a little over the top for Virgil, NY.


Virgil is on the top of the eastern divide with some H2O going to Chesapeake Bay and some going to the gulf of St. Lawrence, so it’s just another top in Virgil.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> Song is all Riblets. I don’t remember what was at Lab but not riblets.


Song also has a doppelmayr on the bunny hill. Runs slow as it’s for newbies or folks needing elevation cause it’s too sticky to get to the other lifts easily. The ones that take ya to the top.
This site has a a lot of info from a lot of places.








Song Mountain, NY


Click on a lift’s name for pictures. View in fullscreen↗




liftblog.com


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> How about the US Olympic Committee and the planet's olympic committee kickin in some $ to those things?
> 
> They won’t even let Harvey post Olympic badminton videos when he wants to, so it seems like we’ll have to wait.


That didn’t take long.
Well it looks like ORDA will be gettin $600k +200K per year from US Olympic Committee from now till 2026 at least.
ORDA also gonna redo the Olympic museum to make it nice though too for ~$1.42 Mill.

Math says it’s better than getting nothing.

If international athletes also come to use the upgraded facilities, are their countries olympic committees gonna kick some coins in too to help pay? 
Ya don’t wanna beg but ya can pass the hats.
August draft meeting info.


https://orda.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/08/8.20.21PublicPacket.pdf


----------



## jamesdeluxe

I spend a lot of time on the Nostalgic Syracuse Facebook page: a bottomless pit of photos and info about my hometown. Here's a pic someone posted; can anyone guess the year based on the pricing? 1990s?


----------



## trackbiker

jamesdeluxe said:


> I spend a lot of time on the Nostalgic Syracuse Facebook page: a bottomless pit of photos and info about my hometown. Here's a pic someone posted; can anyone guess the year based on the pricing? 1990s?
> 
> View attachment 10210


I'd guess it's before the 90's just based on there being no area code on the phone number. The pricing also seems more 70's ish.


----------



## x10003q

That ad looks like early 80s based on the skier graphic and typestyles.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

trackbiker said:


> I'd guess it's before the 90's just based on there being no area code on the phone number.


Nice catch. I remember older relatives writing down phone numbers with the SK3-3431 and GR4-9488 format.

I'm impressed by Toggenburg's entrepreneurial idea to pitch a short-term pass aimed at the college crowd. Back when I was in grade school and junior high, I remember skiing classmates going mainly to Greek Peak or Labrador. Togg and Song were rarely mentioned and places like Ironwood Ridge or Intermont were completely off the radar.


----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> Nice catch.
> I remember skiing classmates going mainly to Greek Peak or Labrador. Togg and Song were rarely mentioned and places like Ironwood Ridge or Intermont were completely off the radar.


Our high school ski club bus would go within a mile of Song on the way to Lab. Nobody complained.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jamesdeluxe said:


> Intermont


That was a cool place


----------



## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> Our high school ski club bus would go within a mile of Song on the way to Lab. Nobody complained.


I wonder if it was because Greek/Lab offered better rates to ski clubs or that kids didn't want to go to Song/Togg?


----------



## Brownski

jamesdeluxe said:


> I wonder if it was because Greek/Lab offered better rates to ski clubs or that kids didn't want to go to Song/Togg?


I doubt anyone asked the kids


----------



## jamesdeluxe

1957 brochure posted on the Nostalgic Syracuse Facebook page. Where did they get that 2,200-foot summit elevation figure? Similar to Magic Mountain a few years later, they were trying to work the Swiss angle.


----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> Where did they get that 2,200-foot summit elevation figure?


Hogsback is 1808’ and lifts present now never made it to the tippy top. 








Hogsback


Hogsback is a peak in New York and has an elevation of 1,808 feet. Hogsback is situated nearby to Fabius and Keeney. Mapcarta, the open map.




mapcarta.com


----------



## Adam

jamesdeluxe said:


> 1957 brochure posted on the Nostalgic Syracuse Facebook page. Where did they get that 2,200-foot summit elevation figure? Similar to Magic Mountain a few years later, they were trying to work the Swiss angle.


They got the vertical drop correct though. I remember a few years ago Togg was claiming they had a 700' vertical but when you look at the topo map that really didn't add up.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Adam said:


> They got the vertical drop correct though. I remember a few years ago Togg was claiming they had a 700' vertical but when you look at the topo map that really didn't add up.


What are the true verts of the other CNY hills? Isn't Greek in the mid-800s?


----------



## Campgottagopee

jamesdeluxe said:


> Isn't Greek in the mid-800s?


Yes
But over the years it's grown to 1000  ?‍♂️?


----------



## MarzNC

jamesdeluxe said:


> What are the true verts of the other CNY hills? Isn't Greek in the mid-800s?


From mountainvertical . . . Plattekill is 1100. My home mountain, Massanutten, is 1070, with about 750 for the two trails from the top alone.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

MarzNC said:


> From mountainvertical . . .


Yeah, but they claim that Togg is 700, which it ain't, as mentioned by Adam above. Also, 950 is Greek's brochure quote; however, it's less than that. Do the "true-up" verts represent what's possible on a continuous run or is it simply the total top-to-bottom on inbound terrain?

Vertical isn't everything. Still, it's helpful to compare apples to apples.


----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> Yeah, but they claim that Togg is 700, which it ain't, as mentioned by Adam above. Also, 950 is Greek's brochure quote; however, it's less than that. Do the "true-up" verts represent what's possible on a continuous run or is it simply the total top-to-bottom on inbound terrain?
> 
> Vertical isn't everything. Still, it's helpful to compare apples to apples.


The most vertical lift at Lab is Ptarmy, but it rarely has been spinning lately, so there’s that too.


----------



## x10003q

The Plattekill t-bar was around 970 vertical feet. The top of the double is not 130 vertical feet higher than the top of the t-bar. It might be 20-50 feet higher. Platty might be 1000 vertical feet.


----------



## Harvey

jamesdeluxe said:


> Yeah, but they claim that Togg is 700, which it ain't, as mentioned by Adam above.



What are the correct numbers? We've been using this:













Toggenburg Trail Map, Vertical Drop and Stats


A profile of the recently closed ski center in Fabius, NY.




nyskiblog.com


----------



## Adam

Harvey said:


> What are the correct numbers? We've been using this:
> 
> View attachment 10433
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toggenburg Trail Map, Vertical Drop and Stats
> 
> 
> A profile of the recently closed ski center in Fabius, NY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nyskiblog.com


looking at a USGS topo map (with 20' contours), the base elevation is between 1,240 and 1,260 feet. Google Earth shows a consistent result.


----------



## Harvey

That's a pretty sizable fudge.

I've been looking at all of our NY verts and snowfall totals and thinking about truing them up. Not a simple matter.


----------



## tirolski

Newhouse's schooler wrote a recent article bout Toggenburg and it’s racers.








Downhill disappointment: racing teams feel abandoned by ski hill sale


After 70 years, Toggenburg Mountain in Fabius will close down this winter, leaving ski racers with no place to train.




www.thenewshouse.com


----------



## DHA

And then there was this today:

By Rick Moriarty | rmoriarty@syracuse.com
Fabius, N.Y. -- The man who bought Toggenburg Mountain last year -- admittedly to shut it down and lessen competition among Central New York’s ski resorts -- has put the Fabius ski resort up for sale.

Last year’s move by Peter Harris angered many longtime customers and this winter has prompted a small but loyal group of Toggenburg skiers to call for reopening its lifts and runs.

In turn, Harris, president of Intermountain Management (also known as SkiCNY.com), has posted a “For Sale” sign on the resort’s sign on Toggenburg Road. He’s asking for $1.5 million for the 160-acre property and its 23,000-square-foot lodge. That’s double what he paid for it six months ago.





Owner Peter Harris has put Toggenburg Mountain up for sale, less than a year after he bought the Fabius ski resort and closed it. (Rick Moriarty | rmoriarty@syracuse.com)

Harris, who also owns nearby ski resorts at Song and Labrador mountains, told syracuse.com | The Post-Standard he has not listed Togg with a Realtor and is not actively marketing it. However, he said he will entertain offers. He said he has not received any yet.

“If somebody called me up and said, you know, this is what I want to do and this is how much I’ll give you, but that’s not happening,” he said. “So, it’s not like I’ve got people lining up trying to buy the place.”

His decision comes as some say the two other ski resorts owned by Harris are messier and less well-run compared with previous winters. Earlier this month, about 50 skiers were stuck on a ski lift at Song Mountain for two hours and had to be rescued.

Harris denies any poor management. He says this year’s crowds at his two open resorts are products of fewer weekends with ideal skiing weather combined with Covid-19 cabin fever.

Harris bought Togg from John and Christine Meier, owners of Greek Peak Mountain Resort in the Cortland County town of Virgil, in August for $750,000.

The purchase gave Harris ownership of three of Central New York’s four major ski resorts. But he promptly announced that Togg would not open this winter, saying there was not enough business to support three ski resorts located within a 12-mile radius. He also cited pandemic-related labor shortages.

His decision angered many longtime Togg skiers, prompting one to create a reopen TOG! Facebook page that has nearly 900 members and distribute 2,000 “#reopen TOG” bumper stickers at local stores.

Scott Phillips, a pharmaceutical sales representative from Cazenovia, said he started the Facebook page on Jan. 26 and spent $840 to have the bumper stickers printed because he was angered that Harris bought the resort simply to close it.

Phillips said he and his family began skiing and snowboarding at Togg in 1998 and made a lot of friends at the resort, which is just a 15-minute drive from his home. The resort appeared to have a good year last year, helped by the boost that much of the ski industry got from the coronavirus pandemic, he said.

“It wasn’t closed due to bankruptcy,” said Phillips. “It wasn’t closed due to a lack of business. They had a record year a year ago, winter of 2021. The lodge was jam packed. The lines were very long, even with three lifts open.

He has asked people not to criticize Song or Labrador on the Facebook page, but that has not stopped some from doing so. Some skiers have complained of long lift lines and unkempt bathrooms and grounds at the two resorts and attributed some of that to Togg’s closing.

“Lodge food area was a mess - hot chocolate dispensers not working properly - bathrooms out of TP - soap dispenser broken - parking lot a mess!” wrote Brandy Aldrich Ouderkirk about Song. “Hill was a mess garbage / beer cans / soda cans all over! No need for this!”

Harris denied Song and Labrador are not being maintained and said the longer-than-usual lift lines were only partly the result of the bump in business the two resorts have gotten from Togg’s closing. Sunny skies and the season’s first major snowstorm earlier this month spurred many skiers to head to the two resorts, creating one particularly busy weekend, he said.





The trails at Toggenburg Mountain ski resort in Fabius are a lonely place these days. Peter Harris, owner of nearby Song and Labrador mountains, bought Toggenburg in 2021 and closed it. (Rick Moriarty | rmoriarty@syracuse.com)

Harris said he has not decided whether he will restrict a sale of Togg to buyers who agree not to reopen the resort for skiing. He said he also has not ruled out retaining ownership of the mountain and reopening the resort if there is enough business to support it.

In the meantime, he said Togg’s ski lifts are still in place, he is keeping the lodge heated and his staff is using another building on the property as a maintenance facility.

“I’m kind of warming up to the property,” he said. “I’ve had it for a little while. It’s a beautiful piece of property. I’ve got people kicking around some ideas as to what to do or not to do with it.”





New owner Peter Harris closed Toggenburg Mountain after buying the Fabius ski resort in 2021. Photo shot Monday, Feb. 21, 2022. (Rick Moriarty | rmoriarty@syracuse.com)


----------



## Campgottagopee

There ya go
Lots of peeps were making noise when the sale happened, now is their chance to step up and buy it.


----------



## x10003q

Those trails are barely covered with snow. What a crap year.


----------



## DHA

You know, I *can *see this sale happening. Tog is close to and serves the more wealthy eastern suburbs of Manlius, Fayetteville, Dewitt, Jamesville, Cazenovia etc. Many of whom got more than a few spare bucks. I am not sure whether a bunch of them would give Peter Harris $1.5 million for it, but lets remember that Greek Peak itself was bought 10 years ago (for around $7m wasn't it?), by a couple of rich business owner / Greek skiers from Binghamton. Greek WAS in financial trouble, whereas Tog was not. And maybe Peter Harris wants / needs cash to help fix that old chairlift?


----------



## Brownski

If I hit powerball I might offer him 1 mil. 
Probably not though. Sterling Forest would be a better bet for reviving


----------



## DHA

There is money around here. The guy who owns United Auto Supply in Syracuse sold his home on Skaneateles Lake for $2 million last year. Someone like him would swing it.


----------



## Campgottagopee

There's money everywhere


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> There's money everywhere


Yup,
Seems like getting folks to work at the place would be harder than buying it.
If they hired a couple snowmaker-catdriver-lift maintance-nanny-caretaker couples it could be a go as a “private” hill.
I’d guess those folks already have more than enough offers for work though, just saying.


----------



## CazMan26

PH is probably tired of people bitching about the fact that he closed it down to force people to go to Lab & Song. So, he’s saying “pay me double what I paid and you can have your place back”.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CazMan26 said:


> PH is probably tired of people bitching about the fact that he closed it down to force people to go to Lab & Song. So, he’s saying “pay me double what I paid and you can have your place back”.


The world belongs to askers


----------



## Tjf1967

Wasn't part to the sale it was not to be used as a ski resort? I figured they guy would use the lifts for parts. He got it cheap


----------



## Campgottagopee

Tjf1967 said:


> Wasn't part to the sale it was not to be used as a ski resort? I figured they guy would use the lifts for parts. He got it cheap


Supposedly 
I said back when it happens it could operate again. Everything has it's price.


----------



## Brownski

I think Harris originally said that would be included as a stipulation when he sold it. Things change


----------



## tirolski

DHA said:


> You know, I *can *see this sale happening. Tog is close to and serves the more wealthy eastern suburbs of Manlius, Fayetteville, Dewitt, Jamesville, Cazenovia etc. Many of whom got more than a few spare bucks. I am not sure whether a bunch of them would give Peter Harris $1.5 million for it, but lets remember that Greek Peak itself was bought 10 years ago (for around $7m wasn't it?), by a couple of rich business owner / Greek skiers from Binghamton. Greek WAS in financial trouble, whereas Tog was not. And maybe Peter Harris wants / needs cash to help fix that old chairlift?


Seems the asking price for Tog now is $2.9 million.
Was gold discovered?





S1406247 | cnyREALTOR, Central New York's Leading Real Estate Services.


Find Real Estate companies in Syracuse NY, Fayetteville, Dewitt, and other Central NY locations.




www.cnyrealtor.com


----------



## Harvey

S1406247 | cnyREALTOR, Central New York's Leading Real Estate Services.


Find Real Estate companies in Syracuse NY, Fayetteville, Dewitt, and other Central NY locations.




www.cnyrealtor.com





Spectacular offering! The former Toggenburg Ski area is available again with over 150 acres of wonderfully designed trails and slopes. With the tranquil sunrise setting to the magical shadows and sunbeams as the sun sets to the west- this year-round opportunity awaits its rebirth. Lifts, snow making equipment, free span lodge, and of course the Foggy Goggle Restaurant are all included. *If you are not in to skiing*, but looking for an incredible setting for a family or corporate retreat, this is a must see! Woods, open space, trails, pond, and frontage along the West Branch of the Tiougnnioga Creek, this site offers a world class setting. Over 22,000 SF in main lodge, with several supporting outbuildings and mechanics warehouse. Facility in nearly the same condition as when it was last open. Unpack, dust off, and enjoy! Facility could make an ideal destination site for a wedding venue or other event operations, with parking for over 300 vehicles (and heavy power connected). Very easy drive. Come see what a gem Southern Onondaga County has to offer!


----------



## Cork

Harvey said:


> S1406247 | cnyREALTOR, Central New York's Leading Real Estate Services.
> 
> 
> Find Real Estate companies in Syracuse NY, Fayetteville, Dewitt, and other Central NY locations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnyrealtor.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "If you are not in to skiing"


Greedy Mother fucker!!


----------



## CazMan26

I still think that the potential is there to turn the facility into a moto X or mountain bike park ?


----------



## Harvey

So does this mean the covenant (no ski areas) is holding?

It seems kind of odd to describe lifts and snowmaking in that listing.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Seems the asking price for Tog now is $2.9 million.
> Was gold discovered?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S1406247 | cnyREALTOR, Central New York's Leading Real Estate Services.
> 
> 
> Find Real Estate companies in Syracuse NY, Fayetteville, Dewitt, and other Central NY locations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnyrealtor.com


Maybe not gold but maybe because of the verbiage in the 4th attachment from the realtor.








1135 Toggenburg Road Fabius NY 13063 | S1406247







newyorkland.forsale




Seems ya might be able to reopen Tog as a “_full scale ski resort_" for the new price.

It’s still a nice lake effected snowy bump.


----------



## Emily

I have no idea if $2.9M is a fair price or not, but I wonder how much equipment is remaining, as I know that Greek Peak took some of the snow-making equipment and vehicles from Togg. I'm guessing that Peter did the same for Lab and Song.

It looks like Togg is assessed for $926,600, so I hope the local tax collector reassesses Togg now that Peter feels it's worth $2.9M.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> So does this mean the covenant (no ski areas) is holding?
> 
> It seems kind of odd to describe lifts and snowmaking in that listing.


Guessing that for 2.9 the covenant goes away. 
His target audience is small, it will be interesting to see if anyone bites.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Guessing that for 2.9 the covenant goes away.
> His target audience is small, it will be interesting to see if anyone bites.


I’d wager Greek ain’t biting.

Snow Ridge folks maybe. 
Stu interviewed their head honcho in April. 








Podcast #80: Snow Ridge, New York Co-Owner & GM Nick Mir


Listen now (93 min) | “We could get two feet of snow here, and literally 15 minutes down the road they could have gotten a dusting"




www.stormskiing.com




He grew up skiing and working there and knows the place. His mother worked at Tog too.
Peter Harris sold Snow Ridge...


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Guessing that for 2.9 the covenant goes away.
> His target audience is small, it will be interesting to see if anyone bites.


Price dropped a 1/2 $million to two point four.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Such a deal


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Attorney General James Takes Action Against Central New York Ski Resorts for Unfair and Illegal Practices


Click to read more.




ag.ny.gov


----------



## Brownski

Wow. On one hand it sounds like they got them dead to rights but on the other, I hate to see any money getting sucked out of the resorts. Does that mean their covenant is reversed as well?


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Wow. On one hand it sounds like they got them dead to rights but on the other, I hate to see any money getting sucked out of the resorts. Does that mean their covenant is reversed as well?



My thoughts exactly. Yes the covenant is dead. Good call Camp.

Legally, she's probably right. And hard to believe that the parties lawyers didn't give better counsel.

But this won't create more skiers or more sustainable ski areas in CNY.


----------



## x10003q

NYSkiBlog said:


> Attorney General James Takes Action Against Central New York Ski Resorts for Unfair and Illegal Practices
> 
> 
> Click to read more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ag.ny.gov


This is good work by NYS. These owners of Greek Peak (John H. Meier) and Intermountain (Peter Harris and Richard Sykes) were screwing the local workforce with no poach agreements and screwing local skiers and borders by reducing their choices and by closing Togg. Disgusting. 

"The OAG ended these illegal agreements and Mr. Meier will pay $195,000 to the state, which is the amount *he was paid by Intermountain* for the agreement. Mr. Meier is also required to cooperate with OAG’s litigation against Intermountain.

As part of the lawsuit against Intermountain, Attorney General James is seeking to require Intermountain to sell one of its resorts and *rescind its illegal noncompete agreement*. In addition, Attorney General James is seeking monetary relief for the ill-gotten gains from Toggenburg customers forced to move to Intermountain, and civil penalties for Intermountain’s unfair and illegal business practices."


----------



## Brownski

The no poach agreements may be the most offensive part for me. It’s not like lifties are getting teamster wages.


----------



## Johnny V.

Harvey said:


> But this won't create more skiers or more sustainable ski areas in CNY.


This. Even though the clause goes away, is there any chance Togg would reopen as a ski hill, much less a profitable one?


----------



## Harvey

Johnny V. said:


> This. Even though the clause goes away, is there any chance Togg would reopen as a ski hill, much less a profitable one?


 I agree with you Johnny hell I said it originally so I guess that makes sense. But really the ag's job is not to consider any of that it's to find violations of the law and prosecute them if she thinks it's important enough. I'm sure she thinks this penalty could serve to prevent others from engaging in this kind of practice.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Crazy!!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> The no poach agreements may be the most offensive part for me. It’s not like lifties are getting teamster wages.


Can't find anyone who wants to work anyway. 
There are jobs, damn good ones, all over the place and nobody wants to work.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Mr. Meier will pay $195,000 to the state, which is the amount *he was paid by Intermountain* for the agreement.



I though it was more than that.









Toggenburg Mountain ski resort sold, will close after nearly 70 years


New owner says Toggenburg's operations will be absorbed into that of Song and Labrador ski resorts.




www.syracuse.com


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Can't find anyone who wants to work anyway.
> There are jobs, damn good ones, all over the place and nobody wants to work.



We are having a hard time hiring for sure, but unemployment is very low.


----------



## Benny Profane

Nice. Somebody was paying attention. I'll bet the no poach deal was a step too far. A few employees were probably really pissed.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> "The OAG ended these illegal agreements and Mr. Meier will pay $195,000 to the state, which is the amount *he was paid by Intermountain* for the agreement. Mr. Meier is also required to cooperate with OAG’s litigation against Intermountain.
> 
> As part of the lawsuit against Intermountain, Attorney General James is seeking to require Intermountain to sell one of its resorts and *rescind its illegal noncompete agreement*. In addition, Attorney General James is seeking monetary relief for the ill-gotten gains from Toggenburg customers forced to move to Intermountain, and civil penalties for Intermountain’s unfair and illegal business practices."


The lawyers win as usual in this.

Nobody bought Togg this past year when folks could buy it and make it a "ski resort” again.

Who’s gonna wanna buy a mandated sale for one of Intermountain's 3 bumps with one of em being shuttered for a bit?

Guess it’ll be more business to New York State’s ORDA “resorts"?🤔

Saw where people were asking in other forums, where is the $ New York State is collecting gonna go?

Big Tupper?


----------



## tirolski

Maier gotta pay NYS $195K.
& Cooperate with OAG “investigation” and other stuff.
Investigation by LETITIA JAMES, Attorney General of the State of New York, of TOGG HOLDINGS, LLC, TOGG MOUNTAIN, LLC, and John H. Meier,

OAG vs Intermountain


https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/state_v_im_-_complaint_summons_w_exhs.pdf


From exhibit 2.




Appears Harris paid $195K for the covenant to “Mr. Meier" whose supposed to now give $195K to NYS. 🤔
Do ya pay sales tax on covenants?
Can ya get a refund? Is it tax deductible?
Can it go to purchasing/reopening Togg?

I just wanna go ski.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> But this won't create more skiers or more sustainable ski areas in CNY.


Exactly


----------



## Campgottagopee

It's ironic that the folks (NYS) who already have a monopoly on skiing are accusing someone of having a monopoly on skiing in Syracuse. Syracuse!!! Just saying that makes me laugh.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> It's ironic that the folks (NYS) who already have a monopoly on skiing are accusing someone of having a monopoly on skiing in Syracuse. Syracuse!!! Just saying that makes me laugh.


Why can’t we have nice thingys 🍺🍺?

Undefeated Cuse gotta play Clemson at home at high noon and they haven’t been beat there in years.
Let’s Go Orange, oh wait Clemsucks wears Orange too, Go Cuse.

In the above shitshow I’d wager the lawyers will win.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Why can’t we have nice thingys 🍺🍺?
> 
> Undefeated Cuse gotta play Clemson at home at high noon and they haven’t been beat there in years.
> Let’s Go Orange, oh wait Clemsucks wears Orange too, Go Cuse.
> 
> In the above shitshow I’d wager the lawyers will win.


Go Cuse!!!! We've taken them to the mat the past two years. Could this be the year?? I'd love to see it. Babers is one helluva coach.
Agree with your lawyer statement.
Look, I get the fact Tog skiers are pissed. I would be too, and nobody likes to see any ski area close. Obviously someone at Tog, or a group of someone's has gotten this in front of the AG. Good for them, hope they're satisfied because I can't see it ever opening again. After all there's a monopoly on skiing in Syracuse....lol


----------



## tirolski

Talked with my ski buddy this morning and he mentioned with the recent announcement for Micron coming there should be mo money for the ski “industry” around the area... 🤔 

Who gonna buy Togg?


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> It's ironic that the folks (NYS) who already have a monopoly on skiing are accusing someone of having a monopoly on skiing in Syracuse. Syracuse!!! Just saying that makes me laugh.



That is a legit point. Rules for signage were an issue in the 1960s. Gore was allowed to have signage and private areas were restricted. That big green sign on the northway with all the ski areas and their exits is supposed to help rectify that.

Your point could be applied to many businesses beyond skiing.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> Can't find anyone who wants to work anyway.
> There are jobs, damn good ones, all over the place and nobody wants to work.


Isn’t that gravy train about to run out of tracks? I mean, aren’t there limits on collecting unemployment?


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Can't find anyone who wants to work anyway.
> There are jobs, damn good ones, all over the place and nobody wants to work.


The low 3.5% unemployment rate seems to contradict "nobody wants to work". There are just not enough workers in certain areas of the US. An updated immigration program could help add workers to areas of need.


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> The lawyers win as usual in this.


What lawyers? NYS gets the $195k and fine was for a scumbag getting paid to make a scumbag non-poach agreement with the 2 other scumbags. Meier knew it was illegal and is not contesting the $195k payment.


tirolski said:


> Nobody bought Togg this past year when folks could buy it and make it a "ski resort” again.


Nobody bought it because the ask of $2.9 million was absurd. Intermountain paid $1.5million for Tog (including the non-poach $195K). Did they do any upgrades to make a buyer interested to pay twice what they paid?


tirolski said:


> Who’s gonna wanna buy a mandated sale for one of Intermountain's 3 bumps with one of em being shuttered for a bit?
> 
> Guess it’ll be more business to New York State’s ORDA “resorts"?🤔
> 
> Saw where people were asking in other forums, where is the $ New York State is collecting gonna go?
> 
> Big Tupper?


The people who skied Togg are going to ski Lab/Song/Greek. Trying to tie in NYS ORDA resorts is silly.


----------



## Brownski

X is 100%. The Right and wrong of these crimes and What’s good for CNY skiers are two wholly unrelated issues. These guys broke the law. They deserve to be punished in some way for that since they got caught. The AG isn’t under any obligation to use that money to help skiers.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> The low 3.5% unemployment rate seems to contradict "nobody wants to work". There are just not enough workers in certain areas of the US. An updated immigration program could help add workers to areas of need.


I guess
Syracuse DPW is 17 plow truck drivers short for this winter. 17!! Those jobs hardly ever became available, now nobody wants to do it. They're damn good jobs, too.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> What lawyers? NYS gets the $195k and fine was for a scumbag getting paid to make a scumbag non-poach agreement with the 2 other scumbags. Meier knew it was illegal and is not contesting the $195k payment.


I can't speak for the two Song/Lab guys as I don't know them. I can tell you that John Meier is no scumbag. He's a good dude who has a passion for Greek Peak, it's employees, management, and guests.
I don't believe that he knew it was illegal. 195k is chump change, he wouldn't risk it.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> What lawyers? NYS gets the $195k and fine was for a scumbag getting paid to make a scumbag non-poach agreement with the 2 other scumbags. Meier knew it was illegal and is not contesting the $195k payment.
> 
> Nobody bought it because the ask of $2.9 million was absurd. Intermountain paid $1.5million for Tog (including the non-poach $195K). Did they do any upgrades to make a buyer interested to pay twice what they paid?
> 
> The people who skied Togg are going to ski Lab/Song/Greek. Trying to tie in NYS ORDA resorts is silly.


Yer just BS-ing.
OAG’s office lawyers, Meire's laywers, intermountain's lawyers and all other ones who are “working" on this in the court system for starters will all get nice pay checks..

They lowered it to 2.4 and paid 2.25, allegedly.




Ya may have caught me on the ORDA sarcasm though.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ski resort company defends closing Toggenburg after NY says it created monopoly


Company president says consolidating ski areas has led to better facilities at remaining ski areas.




syracuse.com


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Ski resort company defends closing Toggenburg after NY says it created monopoly
> 
> 
> Company president says consolidating ski areas has led to better facilities at remaining ski areas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syracuse.com



"James is seeking to force Intermountain to sell one of its properties."











“Monopolies Are Not a Game” - New York Attorney General Sues Labrador, Song Owner for Shuttering Toggenburg


“This action is needed…to restore competition by ensuring that Toggenburg is back up and running in the hands of an independent competitor, rather than rusting away, idle, in Intermountain's grip"




www.stormskiing.com


----------



## Ripitz

Hopefully this sends a message to Vail to just stick with Hunter in NY.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Hopefully this sends a message to Vail to just stick with Hunter in NY.


They obviously can't come to Syracuse because there's already a monopoly on skiing. 
LoL


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> "James is seeking to force Intermountain to sell one of its properties."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Monopolies Are Not a Game” - New York Attorney General Sues Labrador, Song Owner for Shuttering Toggenburg
> 
> 
> “This action is needed…to restore competition by ensuring that Toggenburg is back up and running in the hands of an independent competitor, rather than rusting away, idle, in Intermountain's grip"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stormskiing.com


I think it will be difficult to prove Tog was purchased with the sole reason to shut it down.


----------



## tirolski

If New York State is actively looking into breaking up "ski monopolies" whatabout New York State divesting the Town of Johnsburg’s Ski Bowl? Especially after they're putting millions of taxpayer money into a zip-coaster thingy 🍺and new base lodge.

Nothing to see up there behind The Blue Line?🤔


----------



## tirolski

Looks like Stu wrote another piece.








“Monopolies Are Not a Game” - New York Attorney General Sues Labrador, Song Owner for Shuttering Toggenburg


“This action is needed…to restore competition by ensuring that Toggenburg is back up and running in the hands of an independent competitor, rather than rusting away, idle, in Intermountain's grip"




www.stormskiing.com





_"In the 69-page summons that accompanied the attorney general’s announcement, the state, citing emails, text messages, and legal documents, *meticulously* lays out its case against Harris and Intermountain."_
*Emphasis* added.

From the summons.
_26. Song is located at 1 Song Road, in the Town of Tully, a roughly 25-minute drive from downtown Syracuse._

Nope. It isn’t even in the same county as the Town of Tully. Song's in Cortland County actually. Same as Lab.

If that’s meticulous legal research I’d hate to see shoddy.


----------



## Johnny V.

Ripitz said:


> Hopefully this sends a message to Vail to just stick with Hunter in NY.


Not sure what other hill would be a viable target. The only ones I can think of would be Holiday Valley, Bristol or possibly Greek Peak-Windham is obviously too close to Hunter. All the others in NYS are either private (Holimont), ORDA, or true Mom and Pops.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Looks like Stu wrote another piece.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Monopolies Are Not a Game” - New York Attorney General Sues Labrador, Song Owner for Shuttering Toggenburg
> 
> 
> “This action is needed…to restore competition by ensuring that Toggenburg is back up and running in the hands of an independent competitor, rather than rusting away, idle, in Intermountain's grip"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stormskiing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"In the 69-page summons that accompanied the attorney general’s announcement, the state, citing emails, text messages, and legal documents, *meticulously* lays out its case against Harris and Intermountain."_
> *Emphasis* added.
> 
> From the summons.
> _26. Song is located at 1 Song Road, in the Town of Tully, a roughly 25-minute drive from downtown Syracuse._
> 
> Nope. It isn’t even in the same county as the Town of Tully. Song's in Cortland County actually. Same as Lab.
> 
> If that’s meticulous legal research I’d hate to see shoddy.


Ain't it funny!!
The AG is also requiring Intermountain to sell one of their properties, one is and has been already listed for sale. Sounding more and more like a witch hunt.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> Song's in Cortland County actually. Same as Lab.


Who knew? I always thought Cortland County started a bit south of Song, in Preble.


----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> Who knew? I always thought Cortland County started a bit south of Song, in Preble.


Song’s in the Town of Preble.








						Onondaga County · New York
					

New York




					www.google.com
				





https://www.preble-ny.org/index.php/government/maps/preble-land-use-land-cover-and-tenure-pdf/viewdocument/13


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Ain't it funny!!
> The AG is also requiring Intermountain to sell one of their properties, one is and has been already listed for sale. Sounding more and more like a witch hunt.


The venue for the summons says Onondaga County.
Maybe they’re missing all the sales taxes from the Foggy Goggle and lift tickets/season passes. 🤔


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Foggy Goggle


That's what kept Tog going, imo.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Campgottagopee said:


> That's what kept Tog going, imo.


Right. I never heard much about the skiing there but many mentions of the FG.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> Song’s in the Town of Preble.


I was in the same boat as the state's meticulous research. Without having looked closely at a map, I always assumed that Song was in Tully.


----------



## tirolski

Meier had a non-compete thingy 🍺with Hickey, allegedly, too when he bought him out. The horror...


----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> I was in the same boat as the state's meticulous research. Without having looked closely at a map, I always assumed that Song was in Tully.


There’s probably more cows than people in Preble. It ain’t necessarily a bad thing.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> There’s probably more cows than people in Preble.


My goodness. How can those people live with all those greenhouse gasses


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> My goodness. How can those people live with all those greenhouse gasses


When (sh)it’s spread it ain’t the sweetest smell in the world, but it sure does make crops grow.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> There’s probably more cows than people in Preble.


I always thought that the old Anderlan t-bar was in Preble, but it's in Little York? Haven't driven by in a few years -- I assume that it was removed?


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> Meier had a non-compete thingy 🍺with Hickey, allegedly, too when he bought him out. The horror...


The the monopoly portion might be a reach, but the sale included the anti-poach agreement. When 2 competitors are stupid enough to publicly agree not to poach employees it puts it into a whole different category. It leads to questions about how Intermountain and Greek Peak are setting prices for passes and other service they sell (lessons/rentals/daycare, etc) and what limits they put on employee pay.

This might have been going on for years and they finally pissed off the wrong person or persons.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jamesdeluxe said:


> I always thought that the old Anderlan t-bar was in Preble, but it's in Little York? Haven't driven by in a few years -- I assume that it was removed?
> 
> View attachment 16132
> 
> View attachment 16133


Nope
It's still there
We used to hit this place when we were kids


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> This might have been going on for years and they finally pissed off the wrong person or persons.


Tog is in a very well to do area, Fabius NY. It's clear that someone has connections and has gotten this witch hunt in front of the AG. Won't change a thing as I can't see Tog opening ever again.


----------



## Brownski

The whole thing sucks. People are dumb. There were legal ways to do this. If Mier had just closed Tog, stripped out what equipment was useable and sold it on the open market, that would have been legal- even if Harris bought it all and paid the same amount of money. The way they did it was sneaky and made it a crime


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Campgottagopee said:


> We used to hit this place when we were kids


I've never seen pix of Anderlan in operation. Looks like it'd be a great hill to go sledding (non-motorized), assuming there's enough natural cover.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> The whole thing sucks. People are dumb. There were legal ways to do this. If Mier had just closed Tog, stripped out what equipment was useable and sold it on the open market, that would have been legal- even if Harris bought it all and paid the same amount of money. The way they did it was sneaky and made it a crime


Not a crime until proven guilty? Right now, as I understand it, they're just being accused of a crime?
Always two sides to the story.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jamesdeluxe said:


> I've never seen pix of Anderlan in operation. Looks like it'd be a great hill to go sledding (non-motorized), assuming there's enough natural cover.


It was
We used to go tubing there. It was back in the day when we had all kinds of snow.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> The whole thing sucks. People are dumb. There were legal ways to do this. If Mier had just closed Tog, stripped out what equipment was useable and sold it on the open market, that would have been legal- even if Harris bought it all and paid the same amount of money. The way they did it was sneaky and made it a crime


Crime? It’s a civil case brought by the OAG.








LawHelp.org | Find free legal help and information about your legal rights from nonprofit legal aid providers in your state


LawHelp.org provides free legal rights resources, court forms, self-advocacy tools and referrals to nonprofit legal aid organizations in every state and territory. We help people understand their rights and solve legal problems.



www.lawhelp.org


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Tog is in a very well to do area, Fabius NY. It's clear that someone has connections and has gotten this witch hunt in front of the AG. Won't change a thing as I can't see Tog opening ever again.


Ever is a pretty long time.
This place was closed for over 20 years and is trying for a comeback.








After 22 Years, This Former Colorado Ski Area Is Fundraising Its Reopening


Cuchara Mountain Park is closer than ever to reopening an independent ski area in Colorado.




gearjunkie.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Ever is a pretty long time.


Truth
Sometimes never gets here before you know it


----------



## Benny Profane

I'm never gonna die.


----------



## Brownski

Benny Profane said:


> I'm never gonna die.


Thread drift but I thought of you today when I heard a song called “stick season”. I was trying to remember if you invented the phrase or just used it a lot.


----------



## Benny Profane

Not me.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Price dropped a 1/2 $million to two point four.


So the OAG recently summoned Intermountain to sell one their ski “resorts”.

It’s actually been for sale as a resort for $2.4 for a while.

Looks like Peter may have signed the papers for selling Togg as a ski “resort” for sale with a NYS licensed real estate broker on May 12th.




__





Loading…






img.roveridx.com





Also from the realtor:.
_Aug 3, 2022
Ski Togg (Again)! This spectacular offering is fully available as a ski resort. Dust off, freshen up, and get ready for next season. With the lifts, lodge, existing snow making equipment, and the opportunity to run as a full scale ski resort. Don't miss the chance to keep this local treasure open for generations to come! If skiing isn't your interest, but a rural event center or wedding venue is in your plans- this property has ample acreage, a 22,000+ retreat venue with parking for over 300 cars. The options are many! Solid block free-span building construction, outbuildings & breathtaking scenery. You can create a 4 season destination or a remote hub for a variety of ideas. Considering glamping sites? This could easily convert with a main lodge for events. Come see what a treasure awaits you!_

Who does NYS’s OAG's research?
Don't they read the stuff in the NYskiblogmagazineforum thingy🍺?


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> So the OAG recently summoned Intermountain to sell one their ski “resorts”.
> 
> It’s actually been for sale as a resort for $2.4 for a while.
> 
> Looks like Peter may have signed the papers for selling Togg as a ski “resort” for sale with a NYS licensed real estate broker on May 12th.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> img.roveridx.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also from the realtor:.
> _Aug 3, 2022
> Ski Togg (Again)! This spectacular offering is fully available as a ski resort. Dust off, freshen up, and get ready for next season. With the lifts, lodge, existing snow making equipment, and the opportunity to run as a full scale ski resort. Don't miss the chance to keep this local treasure open for generations to come! If skiing isn't your interest, but a rural event center or wedding venue is in your plans- this property has ample acreage, a 22,000+ retreat venue with parking for over 300 cars. The options are many! Solid block free-span building construction, outbuildings & breathtaking scenery. You can create a 4 season destination or a remote hub for a variety of ideas. Considering glamping sites? This could easily convert with a main lodge for events. Come see what a treasure awaits you!_
> 
> Who does NYS’s OAG's research?
> Don't they read the stuff in the NYskiblogmagazineforum thingy🍺?


Too funny!! 
Agree, it's been for sale. Glad to see NYS tax dollars going to such Crackerjack reasurch.


----------



## Campgottagopee

It would be interesting to know how this "case" got in front of the AG.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> It would be interesting to know how this "case" got in front of the AG.


Is she able to be bought? I’d have to guess it’s cheaper than buying Togg.

Ya’d think they could’ve at least done their homework before bringing the thingy 🍺.


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> Is she able to be bought? I’d have to guess it’s cheaper than buying Togg.
> 
> Ya’d think they could’ve at least done their homework before bringing the thi





tirolski said:


> So the OAG recently summoned Intermountain to sell one their ski “resorts”.
> 
> It’s actually been for sale as a resort for $2.4 for a while.
> 
> Looks like Peter may have signed the papers for selling Togg as a ski “resort” for sale with a NYS licensed real estate broker on May 12th.
> 
> 
> https://img.roveridx.com/Controls/_listing_attachments/nysamls/S1406590/Toggenburg%20Disclosures.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Also from the realtor:.
> _Aug 3, 2022
> Ski Togg (Again)! This spectacular offering is fully available as a ski resort. Dust off, freshen up, and get ready for next season. With the lifts, lodge, existing snow making equipment, and the opportunity to run as a full scale ski resort. Don't miss the chance to keep this local treasure open for generations to come! If skiing isn't your interest, but a rural event center or wedding venue is in your plans- this property has ample acreage, a 22,000+ retreat venue with parking for over 300 cars. The options are many! Solid block free-span building construction, outbuildings & breathtaking scenery. You can create a 4 season destination or a remote hub for a variety of ideas. Considering glamping sites? This could easily convert with a main lodge for events. Come see what a treasure awaits you!_
> 
> Who does NYS’s OAG's research?
> Don't they read the stuff in the NYskiblogmagazineforum thingy🍺?


Yeah, there is no way this was put up for sale after Intermountain got a wiff of the NYS AG asking questions. They only bought it to close it and then, magically, they decided to sell it. Nothing to see here.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Yeah, there is no way this was put up for sale after Intermountain got a wiff of the NYS AG asking questions. They only bought it to close it and then, magically, they decided to sell it. Nothing to see here.


Guess we’ll just have to wait for the book and/or movie to find out.
Where’s John Grisham? He’s yet to write a skiing book.
He did do one on baseball.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Yeah, there is no way this was put up for sale after Intermountain got a wiff of the NYS AG asking questions. They only bought it to close it and then, magically, they decided to sell it. Nothing to see here.


Right after the Syracuse Area Ski Monopoly was created Tog property was put up for sale.


----------



## Brownski

I think X’s thesis is that the AG’s people came around asking questions and that Harris said “oh shit” and put it up for sale then so he could point to it and say “see- if anybody wants it they can buy it for 2.9 mil”.. that’s a plausible chain of events.

We’re all in reckless speculation mode now


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I think X’s thesis is that the AG’s people came around asking questions and that Harris said “oh shit” and put it up for sale then so he could point to it and say “see- if anybody wants it they can buy it for 2.9 mil”.. that’s a plausible chain of events.
> 
> We’re all in reckless speculation mode now


It went up for sale in Aug of 21








Toggenburg Sold, New Owner to Close It, Sell Assets


SAM Magazine—Fabius, N.Y., Aug. 4, 2021—Toggenburg Mountain in upstate New York was acquired by Peter Harris, president of Intermountain Management, which




www.saminfo.com


----------



## Brownski

When did he stop with the covenant talk though?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> When did he stop with the covenant talk though?


I don't know
As I stated much earlier covenant's are broken all the time. I know from experience.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> It went up for sale in Aug of 21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toggenburg Sold, New Owner to Close It, Sell Assets
> 
> 
> SAM Magazine—Fabius, N.Y., Aug. 4, 2021—Toggenburg Mountain in upstate New York was acquired by Peter Harris, president of Intermountain Management, which
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.saminfo.com


According to SAM article you highlight dated Aug 4,2021:
_"Harris, who purchased the ski area from John and Christine Meier, owners of Greek Peak Mountain Resort, also in upstate New York, plans to close Toggenburg permanently and *sell off the property and chairlifts separately*."_

There are also articles (including the SAM article below) stating that:
_" he (Harris) said *he would not entertain offers from potential buyers who wanted to reopen the mountain as a ski area*, and there would be a *covenant on the property preventing that*. " _

In a SAM article from Feb 24, 2022 Harris completely changes course and says the intact ski area is now for sale.








Shuddered Toggenburg Up For Sale


SAM Magazine—Fabius, N.Y., Feb. 24, 2022—Intermountain Management president Peter Harris acquired Toggenburg Mountain in August 2021 for $750,000, and imme




www.saminfo.com






The actual quotes from Harris and the complete reversal of his "Togg closure" business plan 5 months (Feb, 2022) after he purchases Togg (Aug, 2021), really makes no sense, unless he became aware of the NYAG's actions. *NYS might not have had a case if he just closed Togg, *but the anti-poach agreement gave the NYAG a reason to pursue the transaction. It seems Harris reacted to the NYAG starting to investigate the transaction. We see that the Meiers have not fought the AG on the $195k penalty which confirms your (Camp) positive statements about the Meiers and confirms that the transaction was tainted.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> According to SAM article you highlight dated Aug 4,2021:
> _"Harris, who purchased the ski area from John and Christine Meier, owners of Greek Peak Mountain Resort, also in upstate New York, plans to close Toggenburg permanently and *sell off the property and chairlifts separately*."_
> 
> There are also articles (including the SAM article below) stating that:
> _" he (Harris) said *he would not entertain offers from potential buyers who wanted to reopen the mountain as a ski area*, and there would be a *covenant on the property preventing that*. " _
> 
> In a SAM article from Feb 24, 2022 Harris completely changes course and says the intact ski area is now for sale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shuddered Toggenburg Up For Sale
> 
> 
> SAM Magazine—Fabius, N.Y., Feb. 24, 2022—Intermountain Management president Peter Harris acquired Toggenburg Mountain in August 2021 for $750,000, and imme
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.saminfo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The actual quotes from Harris and the complete reversal of his "Togg closure" business plan 5 months (Feb, 2022) after he purchases Togg (Aug, 2021), really makes no sense, unless he became aware of the NYAG's actions. *NYS might not have had a case if he just closed Togg, *but the anti-poach agreement gave the NYAG a reason to pursue the transaction. It seems Harris reacted to the NYAG starting to investigate the transaction. We see that the Meiers have not fought the AG on the $195k penalty which confirms your (Camp) positive statements about the Meiers and confirms that the transaction was tainted.


Yes, I realize all of this. The AG, from my understanding, stated they are requiring Intermountain to sell one of their properties. I was pointing out that one has been for sale the entire time. I didn't read enough to (admittingly) know if the AG specifically said the property they have to sell needs to be a ski area or not.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> The actual quotes from Harris and the complete reversal of his "Togg closure" business plan 5 months (Feb, 2022) after he purchases Togg (Aug, 2021), really makes no sense, unless he became aware of the NYAG's actions... It seems Harris reacted to the NYAG starting to investigate the transaction.


Do you know when the “investigation" started?
Are you saying there was a judicial investigation leak?

Maybe his business plans changed. 
A lot of folks changed the way they operate due to the virus.

I just wanna go skiing.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Yes, I realize all of this. The AG, from my understanding, stated they are requiring Intermountain to sell one of their properties. I was pointing out that one has been for sale the entire time. I didn't read enough to (admittingly) know if the AG specifically said the property they have to sell needs to be a ski area or not.


As Harris stated in the SAM articles - in Aug, 2021, the chairlifts were for sale and the land was for sale and there was going to be a covenant added to the land deed preventing it from being a ski area. Harris was intent on shuttering Togg as a ski area.

Five months later, Feb, 2022, the property was being sold intact as a complete ski area.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> I just wanna go skiing.


I want to sit in a tree and watch the sun come up with hopes of killing a monster swamp donkey.


----------



## CazMan26

Campgottagopee said:


> I want to sit in a tree and watch the sun come up with hopes of killing a monster swamp donkey.


swamp donkey-​A less than hygienic person with low morals and of poor character, will do any sexual act ,steal,lie ect. for drugs


----------



## tirolski

CazMan26 said:


> swamp donkey-​​A less than hygienic person with low morals and of poor character, will do any sexual act ,steal,lie ect. for drugs



C’mon man.
Camp just wants one of these.








Red Oak hunter drops Edgecombe County 11-point swamp donkey - Carolina Sportsman


Paul Wade of Red Oak, N.C. dropped a 180-pound, 152-inch, 11-point Edgecombe County swamp donkey on Nov. 3, 2021.




www.carolinasportsman.com




They’re out there.


----------



## CazMan26

tirolski said:


> C’mon man.
> Camp just wants one of these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red Oak hunter drops Edgecombe County 11-point swamp donkey - Carolina Sportsman
> 
> 
> Paul Wade of Red Oak, N.C. dropped a 180-pound, 152-inch, 11-point Edgecombe County swamp donkey on Nov. 3, 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.carolinasportsman.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They’re out there.


Oh, it gets better !!!

This species lurks in the depths of the bar and club scene . Tell tale signs of a swamp donkey are many and varied, including the wearing of Granny underwear, tight shirts exposing their fat disgusting sloth bodies, and a face that looks like a rotten bee's nest.


😁😁


----------



## tirolski

CazMan26 said:


> Oh, it gets better !!!
> 
> This species lurks in the depths of the bar and club scene . Tell tale signs of a swamp donkey are many and varied, including the wearing of Granny underwear, tight shirts exposing their fat disgusting sloth bodies, and a face that looks like a rotten bee's nest.
> 
> 
> 😁😁


I believe those kinds of animals are protected.


----------



## tirolski

Here’s a law skool homework current events test question.
Compare & contrast the NYS OAG investigation of Intermountain with the DOJ investigation of Augusta National Gold Club.
Go.


----------



## Campgottagopee

CazMan26 said:


> Oh, it gets better !!!
> 
> This species lurks in the depths of the bar and club scene . Tell tale signs of a swamp donkey are many and varied, including the wearing of Granny underwear, tight shirts exposing their fat disgusting sloth bodies, and a face that looks like a rotten bee's nest.
> 
> 
> 😁😁


Have you been looking in my window? LoL


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> Thread drift but I thought of you today when I heard a song called “stick season”. I was trying to remember if you invented the phrase or just used it a lot.


Well if it’s gonna drift,
Killington's FIS World Cup races should have some decent music, but it could also be just the dang stick season if doesn’t turn colder before then.








						Noah Kahan Set To Headline Killington Cup Concert Series
					

This November, Killington Resort in Vermont is scheduled to host its annual Killington Cup, which features FIS female events in Slalom and Grand Slalom. The slalom race will take place on November …




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Well if it’s gonna drift,
> Killington's FIS World Cup races should have some decent music, but it could also be just the dang stick season if doesn’t turn colder before then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noah Kahan Set To Headline Killington Cup Concert Series
> 
> 
> This November, Killington Resort in Vermont is scheduled to host its annual Killington Cup, which features FIS female events in Slalom and Grand Slalom. The slalom race will take place on November …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unofficialnetworks.com



"On Sunday, Michael Franti will be the headliner and is known for absolute classics like Say Hey (I Love You) and The Sound of Sunshine. If the FIS races were enough to convince you to head up to Killington, these headliners make it definitely worth it."

Who are these people? Absolute classic?


----------



## CazMan26




----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> I always thought that the old Anderlan t-bar was in Preble, but it's in Little York? Haven't driven by in a few years -- I assume that it was removed?
> 
> View attachment 16132
> 
> View attachment 16133


Don’t forget to add the shuttering of Mystic, Intermont and Ironwood Ridge in the south of "Syracuse Ski Monopoly" 
thingy🍺.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> Mystic, Intermont and Ironwood Ridge


A shame that the only pix I've seen of those ski areas are from decades after they closed (and during the summer).


----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> A shame that the only pix I've seen of those ski areas are from decades after they closed (and during the summer).


Back when Syracuse area was booming before the interwebs/cellphone thingys 🍺🍺 came to town there were lots of local skiing places.
Don’t forget Cato. It’s about the same distance just WNW and not south of town.
Maybe with the new Big Billion Chip plant coming to town folks will resurrect something. 
Lake effect snow helps skiing in the area a lot.


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## CazMan26

Or did you mean. . . Kato ?


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## tirolski

CazMan26 said:


> Or did you mean. . . Kato ?
> 
> 
> View attachment 16154


Nope.
This one and it just had a rope tow.


			CATO
		

It was on their 9 hole golf course. Steep if ya went down hole #7.
Still a little steep going around, down 1 and 9.
Never skied it but golfed it in my earlier daze.
It was all just a corn field last time I drove by.


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## CazMan26

tirolski said:


> Nope.
> This one and it just had a rope tow.
> 
> 
> CATO
> 
> 
> It was on their 9 hole golf course. Steep if ya went down hole #7.
> Still a little steep going around, down 1 and 9.
> Never skied it but golfed it in my earlier daze.
> It was all just a corn field last time I drove by.


Sounds a lot like Drumlins country club in Syracuse. I think they had a rope tow or maybe a T-bar ?


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## D.B. Cooper

Did someone say "Kato?"


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## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Maybe with the new Big Billion Chip plant coming to town


I really hope this comes true. This region can use a good shot in the arm, and this would do it.


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## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I really hope this comes true. This region can use a good shot in the arm, and this would do it.


Maybe Micron can just buy Togg with their pocket change and give discounts to their employees.
Let ‘em go skiing in Idaho too when they have to go to headquarters for a meeting.
En-Joie Golf Club in Endicott was built so the folks who made shoes could get some recreation and play 18 for a quarter.




__





History – En-Joie Golf Club






enjoiegolf.com


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## tirolski

Seems some "Togg folks" got postcards regarding a deal for family season passes to Greek Peak for $195. 🤔
Some folks appeared to have thrown them out with the junk mail.
Appears some folks are saying it’s a real deal.
WTactualF...
Facebook Reopen Tog! group


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## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> En-Joie Golf Club in Endicott was built so the folks who made shoes could get some recreation and play 18 for a quarter.


I haven't thought about this in 40+ years but my father took my older brother and me to our first pro golf tournament, the B.C. Open at En-Joie (won by Tom Kite), in 1978.


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## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Seems some "Togg folks" got postcards regarding a deal for family season passes to Greek Peak for $195. 🤔
> Some folks appeared to have thrown them out with the junk mail.
> Appears some folks are saying it’s a real deal.
> WTactualF...
> Facebook Reopen Tog! group


Good for Greek Peak and good for those who can take advantage of such an amazing deal.


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## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Maybe Micron


Did you see where their "investment" in CNY has now been cut in half? Is anyone really surprised?? LOL


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## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> Did you see where their "investment" in CNY has now been cut in half? Is anyone really surprised?? LOL


No I didn't see that. In fact at Syracuse.com just Tuesday they talked about the $100B investment over 20 years. Isn't that what it's always been?


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## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Did you see where their "investment" in CNY has now been cut in half? Is anyone really surprised?? LOL


Haven’t seen that either but the volunteer fire department wants to practice burning some of the vacant houses down in Clay, allegedly.








Firefighters want to burn vacant homes on Micron’s future site in Clay


Homeland Security also wants to use the homes for training.




www.syracuse.com


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## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Good for Greek Peak and good for those who can take advantage of such an amazing deal.


Was it part of the NYAG plea deal?🤔
ie. Togg’s pass holders allegedly being harmed thingy🍺


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## Campgottagopee

Andy_ROC said:


> No I didn't see that. In fact at Syracuse.com just Tuesday they talked about the $100B investment over 20 years. Isn't that what it's always been?


I thought they dropped it to $50B, could be wrong. I usually am.


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## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Was it part of the NYAG plea deal?🤔
> ie. Togg’s pass holders allegedly being harmed thingy🍺


I haven't heard anything about that? 
If I were a betting man, I'd wager that Greek Peak is simply trying to do them a solid by providing this to previous Togg skiers.


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## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I haven't heard anything about that?
> If I were a betting man, I'd wager that Greek Peak is simply trying to do them a solid by providing this to previous Togg skiers.


That’s a pretty dang big solid. 
Season passes to Greek go now for $955 for a single $1910 for 2 and $2693 for 3 skiers in a family and on up...


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## Tjf1967

tirolski said:


> That’s a pretty dang big solid.
> Season passes to Greek go now for $955 for a single $1910 for 2 and $2693 for 3 skiers in a family and on up...


Were you a tog season pass holder? If true seems like an olive branch to let the customers know he was not the dick in the deal. The guy that owns song is a real piece of work.


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## tirolski

Tjf1967 said:


> Were you a tog season pass holder? If true seems like an olive branch to let the customers know he was not the dick in the deal. The guy that owns song is a real piece of work.


Nope but have friends that were. Skied it a few times. And a coworker (when I used to work) was an instructor there.

First time skiing was at Song.
Our HS ski club went to Lab.
Had season passes at Lab and also chaperoned for a HS ski club at Lab which allowed it to morph it into a season pass.

I stopped skiing for a few years and fished the local finger lakes from shore and in a boat in the winter.
Being outdoors looking at a finger lake is a lot of fun while catching fish but skiing is more fun now.

Since they’re both on the same pass somewhat recently I go to both thru the SkiCNY pass.
I meet friends at Greek to ski with sometimes and trek to Gore for some mountain fun too occasionally.

Running a ski business in The UpStates ain’t no picnic.


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## Adam

tirolski said:


> That’s a pretty dang big solid.
> Season passes to Greek go now for $955 for a single $1910 for 2 and $2693 for 3 skiers in a family and on up...


I'm a former Togg passholder and received this offer in the mail. I bought 7 season passes for Greek Peak yesterday for $195. Seems way too good to be true, but there were no restrictions, and all other passholder perks apply.


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## Campgottagopee

Adam said:


> I'm a former Togg passholder and received this offer in the mail. I bought 7 season passes for Greek Peak yesterday for $195. Seems way too good to be true, but there were no restrictions, and all other passholder perks apply.


Awesome! Good for you and your family. 🍻 
Hopefully we have a good snow year. Bring it on MaNatch!


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## tirolski

Adam said:


> I'm a former Togg passholder and received this offer in the mail. I bought 7 season passes for Greek Peak yesterday for $195. Seems way too good to be true, but there were no restrictions, and all other passholder perks apply.


Attaboy 👍
I told some other folks about it too.
Seems ya “saved” ~$4 grand.


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