# F Vail



## raisingarizona

Stevens Pass, WA Patrollers Going on Strike? - SnowBrains


Are Stevens Pass patrollers going on strike? With COViD ruining last season by closing all resorts it looks like it might happen again at Stevens Pass




snowbrains.com





I say go get em. Pro patrollers that deal with heavy wrecks, heavy customer drama and avalanche mitigation work deserve to be compensated for their skills. Fu¢k Vail.


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## Brownski

I agree.


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## tirolski

Since Harv went to ski on another "metric fuckton" day, is this an appropriate response to Vail?


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## Kingslug

yes


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## Benny Profane

Here here.


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## Scottski63

When I left Hunter today at 11:30 they still didn’t have the west open. Biggest line I’ve seen at the north lift. They are managing the mountain so badly.


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## Harvey

It seems like many forums have similarly titled threads.


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## jasonwx

Scottski63 said:


> When I left Hunter today at 11:30 they still didn’t have the west open. Biggest line I’ve seen at the north lift. They are managing the mountain so badly.


Glad to be a spectator


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## Face4Me

Scottski63 said:


> When I left Hunter today at 11:30 they still didn’t have the west open. Biggest line I’ve seen at the north lift. They are managing the mountain so badly.


With the many issues at Whiteface this year, I don't know whether this post (and thread) should make me feel better or worse! Maybe this is the year for the smaller, independently owned & operated ski areas to thrive. Certainly based on this forum, they seem to be doing a much better job!!! Good for them!


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## tirolski

Face4Me said:


> Maybe this is the year for the smaller, independently owned & operated ski areas to thrive. Certainly based on this forum, they seem to be doing a much better job!!! Good for them!


Yup. I go to Gore mainly cause ya get longer runs in. Not fond of stopping when skiing, except to get on a lift. 
Gore has a longer season except for last year where Greek and Song were the last 2 to close lifts.


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## Campgottagopee

Face4Me said:


> With the many issues at Whiteface this year, I don't know whether this post (and thread) should make me feel better or worse! Maybe this is the year for the smaller, independently owned & operated ski areas to thrive. Certainly based on this forum, they seem to be doing a much better job!!! Good for them!



Greek has truly been busy this year. I agree, it's good for the smaller hills to have some success. One thing about our owner at Greek is all monies go back into the hill, it's a comforting feeling knowing they're doing all they can to make the place grow.


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## Joneski73

Campgottagopee said:


> Greek has truly been busy this year. I agree, it's good for the smaller hills to have some success. One thing about our owner at Greek is all monies go back into the hill, it's a comforting feeling knowing they're doing all they can to make the place grow.


Agreed, I don’t remember a non holiday weekday as busy as today.


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## Brownski

Face4Me said:


> Maybe this is the year for the smaller, independently owned & operated ski areas to thrive. Certainly based on this forum, they seem to be doing a much better job!!! Good for them!


You may be onto something there


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## tirolski

Brownski said:


> You may be onto something there


Same thing happened with golfing last season. I don’t see a problem with it. I just try and go when it’s not gonna be crowded.


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## Jersey Skier

Scottski63 said:


> When I left Hunter today at 11:30 they still didn’t have the west open. Biggest line I’ve seen at the north lift. They are managing the mountain so badly.


Glad I ignored my Epic Pass and bought a ticket at Belleayre instead,


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## Scottski63

They did open the z lift after I left.


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## G.ski

Jersey Skier said:


> Glad I ignored my Epic Pass and bought a ticket at Belleayre instead,


You chose wisely. Belle was sublime.


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## Kingslug

Would have been interesting to ski 44 at Hunter..in the weeds. But by the time I get there it will be either gone or a WROD. 
Unless..we get another storm...


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## Campgottagopee

Joneski73 said:


> Agreed, I don’t remember a non holiday weekday as busy as today.



It's crazy there today
Drove by at 1:30, damn near out to Stavlos


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## wonderpony

Stupid, pesky day job...


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## tirolski

Meanwhile at Vail. 








Skier dies in East Vail Chutes avalanche


A skier was trapped and died in an avalanche Thursday afternoon at the East Vail Chutes, the popular backcountry area just outside Vail Mountain’s boundaries.




www.vaildaily.com


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## tirolski

Well they made #372 in Forbes list of best big employers.








America's Best Large Employers 2022


Forbes partnered with market research company Statista to identify the companies liked best by employees in our annual ranking of America's Best Large Employers.




www.forbes.com


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## Benny Profane

Hunter patrollers laugh hysterically.


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## Jersey Skier

Hunter had the West side closed yesterday. No idea why, but increased the lines at North.


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## Kingslug

Skating rink I would imagine..


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## Jersey Skier

Kingslug said:


> Skating rink I would imagine..


46 degrees yesterday. Everything was far from icy. I called it quits by 2:30 after almost getting tossed out of my skis as they halted from 30mph. Definitely had the wrong wax for those conditions.


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## Kingslug

what did it go down to last night? That area in particular get super cold and windy.


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## Ripitz

EPIC Pass Cut All Pass Prices By 20 Percent


BROOMFIELD, Colo., March 24, 2021 /PRNewswire/ — Vail Resorts, the world’s leading ski resort company, today announced a bold price reset of its Epic Pass products to continue to delive…




unofficialnetworks.com




Cutthroat


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## Benny Profane

Stock down almost 8% in response. Investors say, hey, wait, you entered the year in trouble, found help, business sucked this year (and last), revenue is way down, and you want to start a price war? Idiots. Put it back in your pants and actually manage your business.


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## Benny Profane

You thought crowds were bad some times at Vail hills? You ain't seen nothing. They also dropped reservations. What a mess.


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## snoloco

The whole point of the price drop was to retain passholders. Many were disappointed with being shut out of resorts on certain days by the reservation system, and with other issues this season. The goal is also to convert as many people to passes as they can. I wouldn't be surprised if they continue with limited ticket sales to get people to switch to a pass for FOMO (fear of missing out). It worked this year.

Clearly Wall Street didn't understand the motive, so the stock price is down.


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## Brownski

Acronyms are so you don’t have to type the whole word out


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## snoloco

What difference does it make? I thought you could add something more than petty attacks.


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## BKTele

I got some unexpected good news from Epic last week. My wife and I had epic passes this year using a moderate credit that we received from them due to the early 19/20 shutdown. With the travel restrictions to Vermont and our unwillingness to travel to Colorado we did not uses it at all this year. We have gore mid week passes and got in a good season there. Anyway, Epic coverage did not cover travel restrictions but Epic is giving us full credit to apply to next years passes.


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## Brownski

snoloco said:


> What difference does it make? I thought you could add something more than petty attacks.


Sorry lil bro. Trying to be funny


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## snoloco

BKTele said:


> I got some unexpected good news from Epic last week. My wife and I had epic passes this year using a moderate credit that we received from them due to the early 19/20 shutdown. With the travel restrictions to Vermont and our unwillingness to travel to Colorado we did not uses it at all this year. We have gore mid week passes and got in a good season there. Anyway, Epic coverage did not cover travel restrictions but Epic is giving us full credit to apply to next years passes.


The zero use coverage for destinations affected by travel restrictions was something they added after the fact. It wasn't in the original coverage because I don't think it was something they were anticipating being in place the entire season.


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## Benny Profane

Wall Street, in the end, is smarter than you or me or certainly Rob Katz.


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## BKTele

snoloco said:


> The zero use coverage for destinations affected by travel restrictions was something they added after the fact. It wasn't in the original coverage because I don't think it was something they were anticipating being in place the entire season.


Agree, had a friend who contacted them about this 5-6 weeks ago and they told her that it was not covered and that she could go to Hunter. She ended up going a few times to Vermont (Okemo and Mt Snow) even though it was not “technically” allowed per VT rules.


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## snoloco

The original coverage only credited you if there was a resort closure. Their only covid related closure was 3 days at Hunter back in January. I'm not sure if that even triggered a credit because it may be that the closure needs to last a certain period of time. It basically encouraged you to ignore Vermont's travel restrictions and there was never any enforcement to begin with.

And Benny, one thing I've learned about Vail is they are lazer focused on their stock price. So either someone miscalculated the effect of dropping the price, or they expect to make it up in volume, which will improve their revenue. Gotta thing long term.


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## jamesdeluxe

Does the 20% off from last year's price make anyone reconsider this? I've had to deal with weekend I-70 traffic on the west side of the tunnel and this will make it even worse.


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## Campgottagopee

Benny Profane said:


> Wall Street, in the end, is smarter than you or me or certainly Rob Katz.


Truth


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## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> Acronyms are so you don’t have to type the whole word out


This? Is considered an attack? Relax lil man


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## jasonwx

jamesdeluxe said:


> Does the 20% off from last year's price make anyone reconsider this? I've had to deal with weekend I-70 traffic on the west side of the tunnel and this will make it even worse.


?
IMO the mega passes have ruined the skiing experience. Hopefully next season I will take a page from James playbook and visit off the radar resorts.


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## Harvey

jasonwx said:


> IMO the mega passes have ruined the skiing experience.


Didn't ruin my season.

@Stu was kind of laughing at me because I could only name three Vail resorts and one Alterra.

I'm very interested in seeing how it explodes. I think it is 50/50 it will.

@Benny Profane says debt, which is a logical call. I'm wondering about lines and availability. Will the fans revolt?

Make the Epik $1 and let's watch the fun that ensues!


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## jasonwx

Harvey said:


> Didn't ruin my season.
> 
> @Stu was kind of laughing at me because I could only name three Vail resorts and one Alterra.
> 
> I'm very interested in seeing how it explodes. I think it is 50/50 it will.
> 
> @Benny Profane says debt, which is a logical call. I'm wondering about lines and availability. Will the fans revolt?
> 
> Make the Epik $1 and let's watch the fun that ensues!


Harv because you don’t ski at the ikon or epic resorts

I’m talking about the the i70 resorts, Jackson hole , Lake Tahoe etc.


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## trackbiker

jamesdeluxe said:


> Does the 20% off from last year's price make anyone reconsider this? I've had to deal with weekend I-70 traffic on the west side of the tunnel and this will make it even worse.


Not that I was planning to buy one anyway but if I was it would make me _less _likely to buy one due to the crowds that it will attract. Yes the lifts will be loading at a higher capacity but I don't think that will alleviate the crowds.
From all of the "F-Vail" & "Vail Sucks" threads on ski forums I think it was more about keeping pass holders than it was about increasing pass holder numbers.


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## Brownski

Campgottagopee said:


> This? Is considered an attack? Relax lil man


A petty attack to boot. I forgot how sensitive the younger generation is. I’m not sure I even want to tell him that laser isn’t spelled with a Z now.


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## Brownski

trackbiker said:


> I think it was more about keeping pass holders than it was about increasing pass holder numbers


This seems to be the consensus. I understand why this caused investors to step back. Cutting margin to do the same business as your costs go up is not ideal.


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## Harvey

jasonwx said:


> Harv because you don’t ski at the ikon or epic resorts


Right, that was my point.

I did actually ski Hunter once. It was primo.


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## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> A petty attack to boot. I forgot how sensitive the younger generation is. I’m not sure I even want to tell him that laser is isn’t spelled with a Z now.



LMAO!


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## Benny Profane

Brownski said:


> A petty attack to boot. I forgot how sensitive the younger generation is. I’m not sure I even want to tell him that laser is isn’t spelled with a Z now.


Well, I laughed. But, I'm old as dirt.


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## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> I could only name three Vail resorts


I hope one was Vail


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## Benny Profane

snoloco said:


> The original coverage only credited you if there was a resort closure. Their only covid related closure was 3 days at Hunter back in January. I'm not sure if that even triggered a credit because it may be that the closure needs to last a certain period of time. It basically encouraged you to ignore Vermont's travel restrictions and there was never any enforcement to begin with.
> 
> And Benny, one thing I've learned about Vail is they are lazer focused on their stock price. So either someone miscalculated the effect of dropping the price, or they expect to make it up in volume, which will improve their revenue. Gotta thing long term.



You just bolstered my argument. Yes, corporations like Vail are lazer, or, laser, um, laser focused on their stock price, not their customers, their product, their finances, including debt. Because executive compensation is directly tied to that stock price, and large shareholders rule decision making. It's why stock buybacks have been so popular, rather than investing in capex or R&D. But, lo and behold, look what happened. He tanked the stock with a really dumb move to corner market share, and "investors" said, wtf, get your house in order, first, idiot. You owe a ton of money, and revenue is down big time, and he seems to be assuming that this pandemic is over and we'll all be back to partying in his resorts in no time. Maybe. I doubt it. But I think Vail sucks anyway, for many years now, so what do I know. It's so crowded at some of those hills, nobody, including me, goes there anymore.

My experiences after this season is to hate the company even more (northeast Epic pass holder) and continue my exploration of less crowded hills. I will be an Ikon pass user next year because I rolled it over, so, there's that, but I like their biz model better, although they've destroyed the SLC experience, to name just one place. My recent experience at Killington forces my hat off to Powdr, after not liking them for years. They really have their act together, operation wise, but I know nothing of their finances. 
After experiencing the ASC bankruptcy at my favorite hill, and watching many hills go down for whatever reasons, I just want responsible management of whatever is left. Give me a nice skiing experience at a reasonable price, and I'll be your customer. Don't do stupid crap that not only harms your balance sheet, but your competitors, when they're forced to compete. You're not Uber, with an endless stream of cash you can just take out back and light on fire. It's snow farming, as Lazlo says. Think like a farmer.


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## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> I hope one was Vail



Vail, Hunter and Mt Snow.

He schooled me about Okemo, so now I know four.

And proud of it.


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## Kingslug

Stowe.....now you know...5


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## D.B. Cooper

Brownski said:


> I even want to tell him that laser isn’t spelled with a Z now.


It never was. It came from "Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation."


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## Kingslug

Well..there was this: https://www.thepinballwizard.net/lazer-ball/


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## Harvey

Kingslug said:


> Stowe.....now you know...5


Haha I think I did know that one, and forgot.

I think @Stu was trying to tell me it was cute that I was so clueless. 

I can't imagine buying an Epik or Icon pass, ever really.


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## Kingslug

If you ski all over the place you need them. So many places I want to hit and a lot are on those.


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## Harvey

Kingslug said:


> If you ski all over the place you need them. So many places I want to hit and a lot are on those.


Clearly I don't.

Call me whatever. NY and VT is really enough for me.

I know this is nuts to most everyone, but I feel like when I'm retired I could get 60 good days a year, or 100 days if I want to mix in some average days.


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## Brownski

Hopefully I’m still healthy when I retire cause I’d like to do both. A year or two wandering the west, then a full winter at one large resort (maybe Killington) just to really get to know one place like the back of my hand, every inch, then probably something else, Europe? Argentina and New Zealand?


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## lukoson

Epic is appealing because of price and variety of good local mountains like okemo, Stowe, and mt snow and opportunity for a trip out west. Like others My hesitation is crowds making for difficult parking, not being able to find a lunch table, and terrible lift lines that makes the hole thing frustrating.


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## Low Angle Life

Can anyone who has frequented Fail Resorts this year comment on staffing? Friends in Bellingham commented that Stevens Pass had very few and very inexperienced staff at the mountain this year. My experience with Hunter after the purchase was that it felt extremely understaffed and by a lot of EB-5's. That was the '19-'20 season, can't comment on this one cause I can proudly say I haven't had a single day in at Vail Resort. Generally I was curious how the mountains were running in the absents of EB-5's, my assumption was that international travel restrictions would limit Vail to hiring locally or just running VERY lean.


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## Brownski

Cant comment on Vail but I know Mountain Creek didn’t get their foreign workers this year


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## Harvey

Gore seemed short on patrol when I was there.


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## MarzNC

Staffing has been an issue at all the ski resorts I've been to this season. That includes NC, VA, WV, CO, WY, UT, and NM. In the southeast, there were more inexperienced staff so the first month was tough. Noticed it the most for lifties at my home mountain, Massanutten, in northern VA. Was fine by mid-January. Out west the independent mountains seemed to be doing okay by the time I went to Colorado in February. They were clearly short-staff but people knew what they were supposed to do.


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## XTski

Killington used foreign workers in the past but they had no problem this season with staff, I would never recommend a mega multi pass to anyone , lowering the price is going to attract more boneheads making a midweek pass at the Beast one of the best deals around,
next season I am hoping to ski the NY lake effect ski areas that I hear such sweet reports from and of course Plattekill, these places should benefit from Vail lowering costs


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## Benny Profane

RIFD gates have eliminated a lot of liftie jobs at Killington. Work like a charm. Vail cant seem to afford the upgrade at Hunter, Mt. Snow and Stowe.


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## Benny Profane

Low Angle Life said:


> Can anyone who has frequented Fail Resorts this year comment on staffing? Friends in Bellingham commented that Stevens Pass had very few and very inexperienced staff at the mountain this year. My experience with Hunter after the purchase was that it felt extremely understaffed and by a lot of EB-5's. That was the '19-'20 season, can't comment on this one cause I can proudly say I haven't had a single day in at Vail Resort. Generally I was curious how the mountains were running in the absents of EB-5's, my assumption was that international travel restrictions would limit Vail to hiring locally or just running VERY lean.


Well, I drove all the way to Hunter to find a closed mountain due to lack of patrollers. That lasted three days.


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## Low Angle Life

Benny Profane said:


> Well, I drove all the way to Hunter to find a closed mountain due to lack of patrollers. That lasted three days.


I heard a whole host of rumors on what drove that closure...


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## G.ski

Harvey said:


> I can't imagine buying an Epik or Icon pass, ever really.


Me too.

I prefer quality over quantity.

But I will buy a Killington midweek pass next season, tough to get 50 days a season without any skiing in November and only a few days in April. Looking like I'll end up around 35 days this season, better than my goal of 30 but less than the 40 I hoped for.


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## G.ski

Harvey said:


> Clearly I don't.
> 
> Call me whatever. NY and VT is really enough for me.
> 
> I know this is nuts to most everyone, but I feel like when I'm retired I could get 60 good days a year, or 100 days if I want to mix in some average days.


totally agree.


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## SIAWOL

Harvey said:


> Gore seemed short on patrol when I was there.


I agree---just seems like fewer around. Not running as many sleds either (my theory: less bus loads and day one-timers).
Talked to a patroller extensively a few weeks ago and he assured me patrol numbers WEREN'T down, which just didn't pass the sniff test for me. He was an Eastern Division bigwig, so maybe he meant in general...not necessarily specific to Gore.


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## Kingslug

Hunter is having tryouts for ski patrol..hmmmm


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## Kingslug

um..apparently not any more..guess they found some.


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## JohnF

Tryouts? Where'd you see this?


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## Kingslug

their hiring site...gone now.


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## x10003q

G.ski said:


> Me too.
> 
> I prefer quality over quantity.
> 
> But I will buy a Killington midweek pass next season, tough to get 50 days a season without any skiing in November and only a few days in April. Looking like I'll end up around 35 days this season, better than my goal of 30 but less than the 40 I hoped for.


You prefer quality over quantity, but you want to ski in November.
You prefer quality over quantity, but you want a pass at Killington.
Interesting.


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## Cork

x10003q said:


> You prefer quality over quantity, but you want to ski in November.
> You prefer quality over quantity, but you want a pass at Killington.
> Interesting.


Gotta go to know Q


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## D.B. Cooper

x10003q said:


> You prefer quality over quantity, but you want to ski in November.
> You prefer quality over quantity, but you want a pass at Killington.
> Interesting.


This sounds like a Benny Profane response.


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## Harvey

I don't understand Killington hate. Never had a bad day there.


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## XTski

Killington runs twice as many lifts as anyone else in the east along along with all the different base area’s etc saving a few jobs with automatic scanners is a drop in the bucket, compared to the smaller amount of scanners Fail needed at their areas shows the difference in customer service and penny pinching
the 3 covered lifts are great for wet days like yesterday
they make sweet snow early season that is often better then natual, so quality is high
getting a midweek pass in June early price is a sweet deal,


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## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> I don't understand Killington hate. Never had a bad day there.


Just dont ski on Saturday.


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## Benny Profane

x10003q said:


> You prefer quality over quantity, but you want to ski in November.
> You prefer quality over quantity, but you want a pass at Killington.
> Interesting.


You really should try Killington. It's better than your hill on most any given day.


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## Benny Profane

Kingslug said:


> Hunter is having tryouts for ski patrol..hmmmm


Isn't that always the case at most mountains? You guys want a union? Higher pay? Respect? Look over there at that line. Fresh meat.


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## G.ski

x10003q said:


> You prefer quality over quantity, but you want to ski in November.
> You prefer quality over quantity, but you want a pass at Killington.
> Interesting.


I like to ski first and foremost. So I like to get 50 days per season.
Not possible for me without a K pass. Without November and April at K it's hard to squeeze 50 days into 4 months of skiing. Becomes more like a job at that point and that's not what I'm looking for.
Your obvious disapproval is pretty irrelevant to me. We all have our preferences.


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## G.ski

Harvey said:


> I don't understand Killington hate. Never had a bad day there.


I think it's a great place to ski and I usually have a pass of some sort there. At 3.5 hours away it's a perfect 2 day trip and I'll even do the random daytrip. 

I didn't get any K pass this season because I'm mad at VT.


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## G.ski

Benny Profane said:


> You really should try Killington. It's better than your hill on most any given day.


Agree. Better than any hill I skied this season and I like the places I skied at this season a lot.


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## Kingslug

Now that I'm getting ikon I can hit K all i want.


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## Cork

Kingslug said:


> Now that I'm getting ikon I can hit K all i want.


K is not unlimited on the Ikon, 7 days with Full, 5 days with Base. Stratton and Sugarbush are unlimited.


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## Brownski

Benny Profane said:


> Just dont ski on Saturday.


Yeah but even when it’s crowded there are gonna be some lifts without long lines. That’s the utility of being so big and sprawled out. You do have to know how to get around there though


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## Benny Profane

Cork said:


> K is not unlimited on the Ikon, 7 days with Full, 5 days with Base. Stratton and Sugarbush are unlimited.


Yup. 

Senior pass is the best deal if you're old.


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## Benny Profane

Brownski said:


> Yeah but even when it’s crowded there are gonna be some lifts without long lines. That’s the utility of being so big and sprawled out. You do have to know how to get around there though


I've been skiing so long there and have a friend who almost lives there, so I can enjoy powder Saturdays. 

Get there early and park at the Superstar chair on the road.


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## Harvey

Benny Profane said:


> Just dont ski on Saturday.


Come to think of it, I realize I always ski on a Sunday or Monday at K.


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## x10003q

G.ski said:


> I like to ski first and foremost. So I like to get 50 days per season.
> Not possible for me without a K pass. Without November and April at K it's hard to squeeze 50 days into 4 months of skiing. Becomes more like a job at that point and that's not what I'm looking for.
> Your obvious disapproval is pretty irrelevant to me. We all have our preferences.


Everybody is so sensitive these days. 
You say quality over quantity yet you pick K with the longest season, the most trails, the most snowmaking, the most crowds. It seems you like quantity over quality. There is nothing wrong with that and I happen to agree with you. I happen to think Sugarbush is more quality than quantity, but the extra hour up to SB takes it off the list. That is the reason that I had shares for a few seasons at K and have not skied SB as much as I would like.

and Harv - where did I say I hate Killington? Maybe you can show me.
and Benny - you did say one lucid thing in your retirement haze - don't ski K on a Saturday.


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## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> Everybody is so sensitive these days.


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## Kingslug

Season ending too soon.....


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## XTski

x10003q said:


> Everybody is so sensitive these days.
> You say quality over quantity yet you pick K with the longest season, the most trails, the most snowmaking, the most crowds. It seems you like quantity over quality. There is nothing wrong with that and I happen to agree with you. I happen to think Sugarbush is more quality than quantity, but the extra hour up to SB takes it off the list. That is the reason that I had shares for a few seasons at K and have not skied SB as much as I would like.
> 
> and Harv - where did I say I hate Killington? Maybe you can show me.
> and Benny - you did say one lucid thing in your retirement haze - don't ski K on a Saturday.


Quantity provides quality, why would you think otherwise? you have more choices to choose the best trails ie more mountains with different elevation and the exposure , if it’s too sunny making snow mushy you go to northern sides, if you need sun or elevation to soften things up you go to south ridge, Bear mountain, lower elevation etc, if you want, no place in the east has more variables to find what you want, and they can handle crowds better then any other place, wi so many choosing the mega passes Killi doesn’t have the weekend crowds like you saw at other places this season, I don’t want to push people to go there to incease crowds but this is a cool site for info so I don’t mind


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## Harvey

Somehow I found myself defending Vail in a (fun!) pissing match on skiology. Really more defending ski companies imperative to operate as profitable companies.


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## Harvey

x10003q said:


> and Harv - where did I say I hate Killington? Maybe you can show me.


Maybe you can show me where I said you hate Killington?


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## jamesdeluxe

Cork said:


> K is not unlimited on the Ikon, 7 days with Full, 5 days with Base. Stratton and Sugarbush are unlimited.


I wonder if being an unlimited Ikon mountain transformed previously liftline-free Sugarbush into the Vermont version of Solitude.


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## Cork

jamesdeluxe said:


> I wonder if being an unlimited Ikon mountain transformed previously liftline-free Sugarbush into the Vermont version of Solitude.


I was at Sugarbush and Stratton during the week many times this season, and no lines whatsoever.


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## x10003q

Harvey said:


> I don't understand Killington hate. Never had a bad day there.


This popped up about 2 hours after my comment. I guess it was just a random throw in?


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## Harvey

I wasn't thinking about you. I've heard lots about Killington positive and negative. The negative seems to be about crowds and too many cross trails.

I realize I've mostly skied Sundays in spring, so I guess those things didn't really come into play.

Looking back you did imply that Killington was about quantity not quality. Splain?


----------



## Campgottagopee

I've never not had fun at K. The last time I was there was in 05 for a bachelor party long weekend of skiing. There's no better place on the EC for something like that. We had ski in ski out, and took a cab out for partying at night. Next best would've been $towe, than LP and Whiteface. Imo


----------



## Brownski

It’s not a quaint little old school lake effect powder pocket thing. It’s the beast. It’s good at being the beast.


----------



## snoloco

Cork said:


> I was at Sugarbush and Stratton during the week many times this season, and no lines whatsoever.


Stratton has a mostly weekend crowd. I have only been there on weekends this season, but last season it was typically empty. Sugarbush has more weekday skiers, but the two weekdays I was there this season, there was at most a short line for the Super Bravo lift, and no lines elsewhere. Keep in mind that this season, weekdays were much busier than in the past because of weekend capacity restrictions and people having more flexibility due to working from home, remote school, etc. I would guess that many of those people are back to weekends next season, but some may be permanently converted.


----------



## G.ski

x10003q said:


> Everybody is so sensitive these days.
> You say quality over quantity yet you pick K with the longest season, the most trails, the most snowmaking, the most crowds. It seems you like quantity over quality. There is nothing wrong with that and I happen to agree with you. I happen to think Sugarbush is more quality than quantity, but the extra hour up to SB takes it off the list. That is the reason that I had shares for a few seasons at K and have not skied SB as much as I would like.
> 
> and Harv - where did I say I hate Killington? Maybe you can show me.
> and Benny - you did say one lucid thing in your retirement haze - don't ski K on a Saturday.


I'm retired too...I ski midweek mostly. Crowds not an issue. Pretty reliable natural snowfall around 200" annually. Overall, K is quality to me.

Otherwise we agree...the extra hour to SB takes it off my list. At that point K is the best option considering where I live.


----------



## Benny Profane

Yeah, Sugarbush has a location issue that keeps crowds down.

I mean, they're still selling the Boomer pass, at 199 midweek. They wouldn't be, basically, giving away free skiing midweek if there was a crowd problem.


----------



## Kingslug

But they priced their day weekend tix at 169.00
Thats Vail type money.


----------



## Benny Profane

Why I don't ski Saturdays.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> I wasn't thinking about you


----------



## tirolski

This goes here but it’s 5 days late. Priceless.








						Single-Day Lift Ticket on Vail Mountain Hits $1,566
					

Price is exactly double the cost of a full 2021-22 Epic Pass




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## Ripitz

My buddy just went to Silverton and his ticket was $135 with a heli-drop


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> My buddy just went to Silverton and his ticket was $135 with a heli-drop


Ever been? It’s unlike anything in the country. It’s awesome.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> Ever been? It’s unlike anything in the country. It’s awesome.


Once. We got snowbound after 5 feet fell. I couldn’t believe they opened. They shot it up and said it was good to go. No heli but we didn’t have to hike much. With both passes closed, hardly anyone was there. Definitely one of a kind. Epic in a real sense, not “epic” like the pass.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> Once. We got snowbound after 5 feet fell. I couldn’t believe they opened. They shot it up and said it was good to go. No heli but we didn’t have to hike much. With both passes closed, hardly anyone was there. Definitely one of a kind. Epic in a real sense, not “epic” like the pass.


Oh hells yeah Ripitz, you hit it right.

There snow safety program is so impressive. Their operation is kind of hard to believe. Just about every skiable acre is serious avalanche terrain and with the San Juan snowpack. Whoever makes the calls on terrain openings after a big storm has got to feel a bit stressed from time to time.


----------



## Kingslug

And now some areas are closed for good after a bad call. The Comma chute is one of them. I think I skied it the last year it was open.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> Oh hells yeah Ripitz, you hit it right.
> 
> There snow safety program is so impressive. Their operation is kind of hard to believe. Just about every skiable acre is serious avalanche terrain and with the San Juan snowpack. Whoever makes the calls on terrain openings after a big storm has got to feel a bit stressed from time to time.


I met Jen Brill in Big Sky right as she was moving to Silverton to start things up with Aaron. She told us about their new plans of adventure and offered invitations. I should have paid closer attention because the stories of the early years are legendary. When I did finally ski there, it was years later with my home crew from NY. I had been in Breckenridge for a month so I was already acclimatized and ready to rip. The zoo crew on the other hand were flopping around like fish out of water. One guy made it down one run but it was survival skiing for him. Another guy happily dropped on the second. It was just four of us and the guide for three more. Only five runs total but it was bluebird on a deep day with no one around. I was just so psyched to be there. The place is nuts. I still can’t believe they pulled it off. Oh yeah, and F Vail they pretty much suck.


----------



## Benny Profane

Yeah, pretty hard place to enjoy without acclimating first.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Yeah, pretty hard place to enjoy without acclimating first.


When I skied June 5th at A-Basin, the only time ever skied out west, my fingers started going numb on the drive up from Boulder where stayed for a meeting. Stopped more than ever on the runs down the mountain. It’s an amazing place to ski @ in June. Skiing was good, but there were little streams of water on trails at the bottom to avoid. 
Fuck Vail is a term of endearment, allegedly.


----------



## Benny Profane

One time I went out there and skied Loveland the first day, looked up at chair 9, and said, c'mon, there's powder up there, because it was closed for a two day "storm". So, I immediately go up to 13000 feet and struggle through windblown for an hour or two. That night I had a very bad attack of altitude sickness. Almost considered the ER.

Takes me a month to start feeling good. You really have to live there year round and do a lot of hiking and biking to do a lot.


----------



## Bandit

Benny Profane said:


> Yeah, pretty hard place to enjoy without acclimating first.


Went to Winter park last year for a long weekend. Flew out Thursday night, skied Friday-Monday then flew back.

Have been to mammoth and Tahoe plenty of times with no altitude issues whatsoever but the winter park trip hit me real hard, probably since I had no time to acclimate.

We arrived about 2am Friday morning to the condo after a delayed flight, got a couple hours sleep and was on the mountain for first chair. Skied hard all day, felt pretty good. Had dinner and 2 beers then it hit me. Worst I’d ever felt. Pounding headache, stomach ache, threw up, just terrible. I even drank a lot of water before and during the trip but it didn’t help.

Saturday morning I woke up feeling great somehow! Hit it hard at the mountain and had the same experience that night. Felt terrible! Sunday morning I woke up feeling great again and I was fine Sunday night as well.

So I think in my case if I was able to stay in Denver for a day or 2 that would have helped a lot. But, the skiing was great, the feeling terrible was worth it and I’ll do it again!


----------



## Harvey

Bandit said:


> 2 beers


The times I've been out west, I didn't drink. Still have issues sleeping above 10k but not too bad.


----------



## raisingarizona

What’s a lot of water for you guys?

I ask because over the years I’ve really noticed that people from the east generally don’t understand the amount you need to drink at elevation in these dry climates out here. I’ve had quite a few incidents with tourists fainting and falling and it’s often a combination of altitude, dehydration, not enough good food and or medication use or lack of. Throw in the stresses of traveling and you have quite the recipe for a situation.

Alcohol obviously intensifies that.

for a reference, I can easily clear a gallon a day without exercising


----------



## ScottySkis

raisingarizona said:


> What’s a lot of water for you guys?
> 
> I ask because over the years I’ve really noticed that people from the east generally don’t understand the amount you need to drink at elevation in these dry climates out here. I’ve had quite a few incidents with tourists fainting and falling and it’s often a combination of altitude, dehydration, not enough good food and or medication use or lack of. Throw in the stresses of traveling and you have quite the recipe for a situation.


I drink over 50 ozenez of water a day all year round


----------



## Benny Profane

Yeah, I even bought one of those small camelbacks to wear under the parka. Still, though, it's tough.

Why Whistler can be more fun. 2000 at the base, 7000 at top. But, not exactly light powder. Hell, it rains a lot.


----------



## raisingarizona

My best idea or advice is to pre-game hard before your trip. Start hydrating 5 or more days in advance with at least a gallon a day. More is probably better. Make sure your iron is clear in color and keep it that way.

I’ve had tourists pass out on me and afterwards tell me that they’ve been drinking water as they hold up a half drunk 12 oz plastic bottle and that was probably all that they had in 24 hours. You guys have humidity out there, it’s dry out here and that dryness is constantly pulling the water out of your body. It’s literally a battle to stay on top of it. I hear ya Benny, I’m used to it and I think it’s a pia.


----------



## Ripitz

When I bartended in Big Sky we would have just off the jet flatlanders that would get crushed real quick. They would slam a couple martinis and order a third. They weren’t driving anywhere and we would ask, “Are you sure? It’s a little different with the altitude up here and I want to make sure you enjoy your time skiing. How about some water?”. “I’m on vacation, give me another. I drink these things all the time”, they would reply. Sure enough one more sip and it would hit them like a ton of bricks. We’d call the hostess in the dining room to “escort” them to their room and have a bellman follow close behind to make sure the drunk was safely delivered. Happened all the time.


----------



## Harvey

When I did hut-to-hut I pounded the water (at least a gallon) for a week before and had no drinks for the same time period.

The last night of our trip three (guide and two sports) split one of those big Fosters. We were kind of shitfaced, but felt fine the next day.


----------



## Benny Profane

raisingarizona said:


> My best idea or advice is to pre-game hard before your trip. Start hydrating 5 or more days in advance with at least a gallon a day. More is probably better. Make sure your iron is clear in color and keep it that way.
> 
> I’ve had tourists pass out on me and afterwards tell me that they’ve been drinking water as they hold up a half drunk 12 oz plastic bottle and that was probably all that they had in 24 hours. You guys have humidity out there, it’s dry out here and that dryness is constantly pulling the water out of your body. It’s literally a battle to stay on top of it. I hear ya Benny, I’m used to it and I think it’s a pia.


First lesson I had in western dry conditions was driving from Flagstaff to Monument Valley, hike a little, both ways with the windows closed, air blasting, and no water. Man, did I feel weird, and it took me a while to figure that out as an Eastern jong.


----------



## G.ski

raisingarizona said:


> What’s a lot of water for you guys?
> 
> I ask because over the years I’ve really noticed that people from the east generally don’t understand the amount you need to drink at elevation in these dry climates out here. I’ve had quite a few incidents with tourists fainting and falling and it’s often a combination of altitude, dehydration, not enough good food and or medication use or lack of. Throw in the stresses of traveling and you have quite the recipe for a situation.
> 
> Alcohol obviously intensifies that.
> 
> for a reference, I can easily clear a gallon a day without exercising


Learned this lesson on a business trip to Scottsdale years ago. Climbed Camelback mountain during an afternoon off. After fishing on the Frying Pan river in CO a few years before I knew about the intense dryness of western desert areas. So I brought a pack and put 4 bottles of water in it. 3 were gone before I hit the summit and I had to ration the last bottle on the way down. Man was I thirsty at the bottom. Crazy dry out there.


----------



## raisingarizona

Arid-zona will get ya! ?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> When I did hut-to-hut I pounded the water (at least a gallon) for a week before and had no drinks for the same time period.
> 
> The last night of our trip three (guide and two sports) split one of those big Fosters. We were kind of shitfaced, but felt fine the next day.


Bud light is 96% H2O, just sayin. 
Went to another meeting at Copper Mountain and stayed at a condo on their golf course at the end of July. Highest tee box in North America, allegedly. Ball goes farther too as less air to slow it down. It took a couple daze to get acclimated. Sleeping at altitude took a bit gettin used to. 








Tee Time: (Almost) the highest tee box in North America


Summit County is home to more than a dozen of the unofficial “highest (blank) in America,” but only Copper Creek Golf Course has the highest tee box in North America.




www.summitdaily.com


----------



## Kingslug

Its not just water ..its the electrolytes you need. I mix up Himalayan sea salt and sodium chloride and put about 1/2 tsp in a litre of water. I drink this stuff every day. My trainer turned me on to it. I didn't believe him until one day I was totally shot when I got there..he gave me a glass of it and it worked. High altitude..don't pound coffee in the morning...and booze at night...


----------



## jasonwx

raisingarizona said:


> Arid-zona will get ya! ?


Yep 
Was biking solo in Sedona
Had 3 liters of water with me. Lasted one hour. Had another hour of riding. Full on panic with just a few sips left. Scary crap


----------



## Ripitz

One time I flew to a destination that had high altitude skiing with the NY zoo crew. When we were unpacking we started laughing because one of the guys pulled out his personal case of pedialyte. He assured us it would help with dehydration and hangovers. We were calling him a big baby among other things. It was late at night and the bars were closed. Someone pulled out a bottle of duty free vodka to celebrate or arrival and with no other mixers... it was vodka pedialytes for everyone! In case anyone wonders, that combo isn’t a secret cure all. The next day was the usual sufferfest.


----------



## tirolski

Maybe that’s one reason why these plates are going for big bucks in Colorado now. Proceeds of auction go to disabled kids, allegedly.
Can NY be far behind?








Colorado Auctioning Marijuana Themed License Plates For Charity


Colorado drivers now have the option of to buy the rights to weed-themed license plate configurations in an effort to raise funds for the Colorado Disability Funding Committee. Bidders are buying t…




unofficialnetworks.com












Mobile Silent Auction | Find an Event Near You | Handbid


Silent Auctions Made Easy




events.handbid.com


----------



## Kingslug

Try skiing in South America..and drinking..2 drinks and your toast. Walk around with a headache all day..your staying at 10k feet..and the wine is really good. And theres not much to do besides eat drink and ski as you can't go into town..from up there.


----------



## Ripitz

Big Sky Nixes Tram Access For Ikon, Mountain Collective, and Day Pass Holders


^Courtesy: FACEBOOK/Big Sky Resort Big Sky Resort released an update yesterday that access to the Lone Peak Tram will be a little bit different next season. Ikon Pass, Mountain Collective, and day …




unofficialnetworks.com




I looked around for a place to put this but instead of starting a new one I decided to pile on Vail as they represent the whole mega pass thing well and they suck too. I wish all ski areas to stay in business but this is what happens when you over sell and are “successful”. Years ago when I lived in Big Sky, I took a trip down to Teton Pass with some friends to run some road laps. I met a guy on the bootpack who was a Jackson Hole passholder. He told me about the horrific tram lines that morning, how you had to get there wicked early, had to wait, only got one ride and couldn’t return to base. They usually skied to the Hobacks for one and got out of there to go hike the pass, which is where I met him at 10am. Sucks, I said confusingly. At that time I was skiing walk on trams in Big Sky and lapping the front, all 4 Gullies, Duckshot, Dobie’s, and Big Couloir in a day and then some. I was even lucky enough to ride the tram by myself a few times. Those days are over. Building a bigger tram is a big mistake IMO. I’d rather see them tear it down and let people hike it. I’ve done that too. Those runs were the most memorable. Rant over... for now.


----------



## XTski

Ripitz said:


> Big Sky Nixes Tram Access For Ikon, Mountain Collective, and Day Pass Holders
> 
> 
> ^Courtesy: FACEBOOK/Big Sky Resort Big Sky Resort released an update yesterday that access to the Lone Peak Tram will be a little bit different next season. Ikon Pass, Mountain Collective, and day …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unofficialnetworks.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I looked around for a place to put this but instead of starting a new one I decided to pile on Vail as they represent the whole mega pass thing well and they suck too. I wish all ski areas to stay in business but this is what happens when you over sell and are “successful”. Years ago when I lived in Big Sky, I took a trip down to Teton Pass with some friends to run some road laps. I met a guy on the bootpack who was a Jackson Hole passholder. He told me about the horrific tram lines that morning, how you had to get there wicked early, had to wait, only got one ride and couldn’t return to base. They usually skied to the Hobacks for one and got out of there to go hike the pass, which is where I met him at 10am. Sucks, I said confusingly. At that time I was skiing walk on trams in Big Sky and lapping the front, all 4 Gullies, Duckshot, Dobie’s, and Big Couloir in a day and then some. I was even lucky enough to ride the tram by myself a few times. Those days are over. Building a bigger tram is a big mistake IMO. I’d rather see them tear it down and let people hike it. I’ve done that too. Those runs were the most memorable. Rant over... for now.


Hiked, skied the pass a few times it’s an amazing place, yeah fuck the mega pass and those that push em


----------



## Harvey

_"Our goal is to improve the guest experience and get the Tram line back to 30 minutes on average consistently."_

30 minutes is terrible. How long was it this year?

I'm assuming it's a once in a lifetime experience?

_"The only pass with unlimited Tram access is Big Sky’s Gold Pass that costs $1,899 for adults, or a Double Black Pass that grants 10 days of access on the Lone Peak tram for $1,449."_

I'm assuming this is heli-access. ?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> _"Our goal is to improve the guest experience and get the Tram line back to 30 minutes on average consistently."_
> 
> 30 minutes is terrible. How long was it this year?
> 
> I'm assuming it's a once in a lifetime experience?
> 
> _"The only pass with unlimited Tram access is Big Sky’s Gold Pass that costs $1,899 for adults, or a Double Black Pass that grants 10 days of access on the Lone Peak tram for $1,449."_
> 
> I'm assuming this is heli-access. ?


Waiting 1/2 hour to get on a ski-lift should come with some fringe benefits along with just getting to the top.


----------



## tirolski

Here’s Vail’s investor powerpoint presentation thingy put up today.
Epically Vuck Fail. Got a slide showing their "subscription model transformation...advanced commitment model”.
I’ll stick with local Mom’s and Pops. They can have the masses if they can handle em.



http://investors.vailresorts.com/static-files/aa764731-c8b8-45bf-b928-39630c190011


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> Here’s Vail’s investor powerpoint presentation thingy put up today.
> Epically Vuck Fail. Got a slide showing their "subscription model transformation...advanced commitment model”.
> I’ll stick with local Mom’s and Pops. They can have the masses if they can handle em.
> 
> 
> 
> http://investors.vailresorts.com/static-files/aa764731-c8b8-45bf-b928-39630c190011


I liked the “reducing friction” goal under their guest experience wish list. Good luck with that. F Vail


----------



## Harvey

That's quite a document. I don't really have the patience to read and understand it.

I think (?) it's saying the goal is to get/keep ski days per ticket at 4 per season and yield $112 per day?

If that is right we are REALLY in the minority here. Even my price per day is way below that.



Ripitz said:


> “reducing friction”


I guess this is as close as they come to the phrase "lift lines."


----------



## Kingslug

And not much planned for the East. Replace a lift at Okemo..oh...boy.....


----------



## gorgonzola

new drinking game to replace sno's "mountain creek"


tirolski said:


> thingy


??? cheers!


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Waiting 1/2 hour to get on a ski-lift should come with some fringe benefits along with just getting to the top.


Awesome scenery enough?

There's a recent video of somebody tumbling almost the entire length of that couloir right under the gondola, which is Big couloir. They're probably still in pain.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Harvey said:


> That's quite a document. I don't really have the patience to read and understand it. I think (?) it's saying the goal is to get/keep ski days per ticket at 4 per season and yield $112 per day?


A forum member recently said something to the effect of: "running a ski area is a business so don't be surprised when they treat it like a business."


----------



## Kingslug

If you want to stay in business...


----------



## Benny Profane

Businesses need happy and satisfied customers.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> There's a recent video of somebody tumbling almost the entire length of that couloir right under the gondola,which is Big couloir. They're probably still in pain.


It’s in the Bad Wipeout thread Ben. 
Dude said the day after from his hospital bed he was gonna ski it again. 
Did that run count?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> That's quite a document. I don't really have the patience to read and understand it.
> I think (?) it's saying the goal is to get/keep ski days per ticket at 4 per season and yield $112 per day?
> If that is right we are REALLY in the minority here. Even my price per day is way below that.
> I guess this is as close as they come to the phrase "lift lines."


Business appears to be set up to be like a timeshare-Disney-captive-audience keep-em-subscribed for a vacation model.


----------



## Ripitz

I like ski areas and want them to stay in business. I also like people but I prefer when they are not around, especially on a powder day. The best days I had this year were at three defunct ski areas that were closed a long time ago. Waiting in lines? No thanks, I’d rather hike.


----------



## Harvey

jamesdeluxe said:


> A forum member recently said something to the effect of: "running a ski area is a business so don't be surprised when they treat it like a business."


I wasn't implying any surprise.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Businesses need happy and satisfied customers.


In their required recent forward looking statements to investors Vail states,

_"All forward-looking statements are subject to certain risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those projected. Such risks and uncertainties include but are not limited to... 

a deterioration in the quality or reputation of our brands"_

It’s a multi-national corporation trying to manage whatever it is they try to manage.


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> In their required recent forward looking statements to investors Vail states,
> 
> _"All forward-looking statements are subject to certain risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those projected. Such risks and uncertainties include but are not limited to...
> 
> a deterioration in the quality or reputation of our brands"_
> 
> It’s a multi-national corporation trying to manage whatever it is they try to manage.


Every public company has this on every statement.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Every public company has this on every statement.


Yup, just thought it was somewhat appropriate in light of this thread.


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> a deterioration in the quality or reputation of our brands


This is boilerplate? or the rest of it?


----------



## tirolski

As ya said, there’s a lot there. They had a podcast that went along with it but seemed easier just like looking at the pictures.


----------



## Harvey

Who has an Epic Pass?

Interesting idea posted on AZ: Buy Vail stock so when you are waiting in line you can think about the upside.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Harvey said:


> Interesting idea posted on AZ: Buy Vail stock so when you are waiting in line you can think about the upside.


So I can get fucked two ways by the same company? I'll stick with losing money on my renewable energy positions. I can't imagine owning stock in a company whose profits are directly tied to snow fall. 

I had a conversation with someone the other day about how likely it is that Vail will move to a concessioner model and own nothing in the future. Directly partnering with Rosi and Burton to manage their rental shops that they can take a percentage of, food and bev concessioners like Shake Shack and the lot. Far as I can see the company has not incentive to really own anything, especially with their dynamic in the west leasing land from the feds. Corporate consolidation = increased efficiencies = good for consumer...


----------



## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> Who has an Epic Pass?
> 
> Interesting idea posted on AZ: Buy Vail stock so when you are waiting in line you can think about the upside.


Even though I hate them, and just bought a full Ikon for next year, I may actually renew my northeast midweek senior pass. I'm waiting to hear from them about some sort of credit or refund from last season, which I never knew I was getting, but they sent me a cryptic email a few weeks ago to stay tuned, some sort of money is coming my way. As it stands now, that pass is reduced to $271, so, if they credit me something, getting it down to 225 or below, then it's an offer I can't refuse. I hate them, but, I'm also a cheapskate.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Even though I hate them, and just bought a full Ikon for next year, I may actually renew my northeast midweek senior pass. I'm waiting to hear from them about some sort of credit or refund from last season, which I never knew I was getting, but they sent me a cryptic email a few weeks ago to stay tuned, some sort of money is coming my way. As it stands now, that pass is reduced to $271, so, if they credit me something, getting it down to 225 or below, then it's an offer I can't refuse. I hate them, but, I'm also a cheapskate.


They be goin for retention subscriber model to keep ya coming back for more. So ya got that goin for ya. Good luck in yer endeavors Ben.


----------



## Benny Profane

I mean, at a certain point, it's free skiing. Like when I was talking to a Sugarbush CSR in the lodge about my 129 Boomer pass a few seasons ago, and he said, you know, we're paying you to ski, and I said, yup.


----------



## Ripitz

You can also buy a fully cooked rotisserie chicken at Walmart for $4.50 




__





Robot or human?






www.walmart.com


----------



## Harvey

Low Angle Life said:


> So I can get fucked two ways by the same company? I'll stick with losing money on my renewable energy positions. I can't imagine owning stock in a company whose profits are directly tied to snow fall.
> 
> I had a conversation with someone the other day about how likely it is that Vail will move to a concessioner model and own nothing in the future. Directly partnering with Rosi and Burton to manage their rental shops that they can take a percentage of, food and bev concessioners like Shake Shack and the lot. Far as I can see the company has not incentive to really own anything, especially with their dynamic in the west leasing land from the feds. Corporate consolidation = increased efficiencies = good for consumer...



It was intended as a joke, not a serious proposal for an investment strategy.

Are you an epic passholder?


----------



## Harvey

Benny Profane said:


> I mean, at a certain point, it's free skiing. Like when I was talking to a Sugarbush CSR in the lodge about my 129 Boomer pass a few seasons ago, and he said, you know, we're paying you to ski, and I said, yup.



What's the thinking? F&B? You'll bring the grandkids? You'll only ski midweek?


----------



## Low Angle Life

Harvey said:


> It was intended as a joke, not a serious proposal for an investment strategy.
> 
> Are you an epic passholder?


I figured as much, regardless the idea of investing in a company like Vail makes me queasy.

Never had an epic pass but did have the drifter pass the year Vail purchased Hunter, never again.


----------



## Harvey

I'm sure I own some Vail stock in my total stock market fund. 

You were kidding too... you aren't an epic passholder and you don't own their stock, so you're all set.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> What's the thinking? F&B? You'll bring the grandkids? You'll only ski midweek?


I’m pretty sure mountain managers were genuinely showing respect to their elders when they came up with the seniors’ passes. It was a long time ago.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Harvey said:


> What's the thinking? F&B? You'll bring the grandkids? You'll only ski midweek?


I always wondered about the thinking behind giveaway senior passes too. Good PR?


----------



## Brownski

jamesdeluxe said:


> I always wondered about the thinking behind giveaway senior passes too. Good PR?


PR was probably part of it. Plus, back in the day, it was pretty rare for people Harv and Benny’s age to still be skiing. Medical science has come a long way


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Medical science


Rocker. It's all about rocker.


----------



## MarzNC

jamesdeluxe said:


> I always wondered about the thinking behind giveaway senior passes too. Good PR?


The age cut offs for senior rates vary quite a bit. I started paying attention a few years ago when my primary ski buddy turned 65. Ranges from 60 to 80. 65 far more common at small hills or ski areas that aren't destination resorts. Wolf Creek starts at 65, Monarch starts at 62. Taos starts at 65. Alta has a Senior Pass for 65-79 but no senior day ticket price. Snowbird also has a Senior Pass for 65+. 70 used to be the target but started moving up a decade ago. First to 72, and in some cases up to 75 after that.

Ikon doesn't have any senior discounts. Epic had a senior rate for a few regional passes.

For family oriented resorts, the hope is probably that if grandparents are regulars then their adult children and grandchildren are more likely to hit the slopes too. Doesn't always work though. I remember chatting with a grandfather from the midwest a few years ago who spends the winter months in Sandy. He alternated getting an Alta pass and a Snowbird pass. He was lamenting that neither of his kids were bringing the grandkids for ski vacations any more. Even though they had a free place to stay.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Rocker. It's all about rocker.


Yup. Off yer rocker. Onto the lift. Down the hill. Repeat the previous two steps till back on the rocker and then rocking till nap time. Refreshments as needed.


----------



## tirolski

SkiCNY Song-Lab 65 and over was ~$250 for last season if ya bought it early. 
Came out to <$10/day with skiing only 1 weekend day and no holidays. 
Could’ve but chose not too.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Greek has come out with a midweek pass for 50 and older. I don't know what the cost is because the email said to call them for pricing and I didn't call.


----------



## Benny Profane

jamesdeluxe said:


> I always wondered about the thinking behind giveaway senior passes too. Good PR?





Brownski said:


> PR was probably part of it. Plus, back in the day, it was pretty rare for people Harv and Benny’s age to still be skiing. Medical science has come a long way



Skiing is primarily a Boomer sport. They fueled it's growth as young people back in the late 60s and beyond. There weren't as many older people back then, and, as we know, an old body isn't made to withstand the trauma of learning mistakes. Furgetabout snowboarding. Now the Boomers are old, but many have the skills, and the money, to ski casually.
But, even at that pass price at Sugarbush, there's nobody there midweek. I guess they had to get somebody out on the slopes. Matter of time before they close midweek, I guess.


----------



## Benny Profane

Campgottagopee said:


> Greek has come out with a midweek pass for 50 and older. I don't know what the cost is because the email said to call them for pricing and I didn't call.


Cool. I'll stay tuned.


----------



## Benny Profane

Ripitz said:


> You can also buy a fully cooked rotisserie chicken at Walmart for $4.50
> 
> 
> Robot or human?


The best deal in fast food anywhere. All supermarkets sell cheap rotisserie chickens as a loss leader. I know I drive by two supermarkets to go to one that has the best cooked chicken (because all are not the same), and of course, I drop a hundred bucks there for everything else.


----------



## Ripitz

Benny Profane said:


> The best deal in fast food anywhere. All supermarkets sell cheap rotisserie chickens as a loss leader. I know I drive by two supermarkets to go to one that has the best cooked chicken (because all are not the same), and of course, I drop a hundred bucks there for everything else.


Thank you for proving my point?


----------



## Benny Profane

Ripitz said:


> Thank you for proving my point?


Yeah, but, I don't really spend much money at the hill once I'm there. I'd like to see the data, but I doubt a lot of older people are, either.


----------



## Ripitz

Benny Profane said:


> Yeah, but, I don't really spend much money at the hill once I'm there. I'd like to see the data, but I doubt a lot of older people are, either.


It’s more than nothing which is at least something


----------



## Benny Profane

Ripitz said:


> It’s more than nothing which is at least something


Yeah, but, as stated above, they're paying the skiers to ski, at those prices.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Yeah, but, I don't really spend much money at the hill once I'm there. I'd like to see the data, but I doubt a lot of older people are, either.


If they go as family with their kids and/or grandkids they do. Similar to Disney.


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> If they go as family with their kids and/or grandkids they do. Similar to Disney.


Nope, ain't happening. Maybe every now and then, but, ain't no kids in that lodge midweek, or on the hill. Just a bunch of old people getting paid to ski.


----------



## raisingarizona

gorgonzola said:


> new drinking game to replace sno's "mountain creek"
> 
> ??? cheers!


Thingy!


----------



## tirolski

gorgonzola said:


> new drinking game to replace sno's "mountain creek"
> 
> ??? cheers!


Try the drinking game using Jenny Psaki’s “um" or ah” uttered in her pressers.
Every X times take a sip. Pros are permitted a lower number.
Tis quite challenging. Started at X=10.
Jumped to 20 and had to quit as it’s too hard to count using toes when yer busy sippin.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

Drinking games based on verbal ticks is so lame....


----------



## tirolski

DMC_Hunter said:


> Drinking games based on verbal ticks is so lame....


Sorry. I‘ll have to circle back to ya when I’m less lame.


----------



## Harvey

This is likely to be popular.


----------



## G.ski

Wonder how much they plan to charge to park for a day.


----------



## tirolski

They shut down the bike park at Stevens Pass and the bikers aren’t pleased.
They still “allow” ya to hike the US Forest Service land to access the Pacific Crest trail though.








Vail Resorts Closes Stevens Pass Bike Park For 2nd Consecutive Season


^Courtesy: Stevens Pass The mountain bike community is ablaze this morning with the announcement that the Stevens Pass, WA bike park will not operate for a 2nd consecutive season. The park was clos…




unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## MarzNC

I expect there may be an update to this article from April 2021 soon.









3 years and a COVID-blighted ski season into new ownership, Stevens Pass and Crystal Mountain chart divergent paths


Two beloved Western Washington ski resorts were snapped up by rival conglomerates in 2018. New ownership brought some initial upgrades. Then came the ultimate test: the COVID-19-hampered season of 2020-21. How did Stevens Pass and Crystal Mountain make out?




www.seattletimes.com


----------



## Harvey

__





Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2021 Third Quarter Results, Early Season Pass Sales Results, and Provides Fiscal 2021 Outlook | Vail Resorts, Inc.


The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.



investors.vailresorts.com


----------



## tirolski

Here’s the transcript of investors Q&A that went with their recent financial announcements from their top dog.



https://seekingalpha.com/article/4433663-vail-resorts-inc-mtn-ceo-rob-katz-on-q3-2021-results-earnings-call-transcript


----------



## ScottySkis

Bull ***t not us skiers but corruption Corporation I agree with against his opinion








Letter from Vail Resorts CEO: We Are Part of the Problem | Vail Resorts Corporate






news.vailresorts.com


----------



## Ripitz

ScottySkis said:


> Bull ***t not us skiers but corruption Corporation I agree with against his opinion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Letter from Vail Resorts CEO: We Are Part of the Problem | Vail Resorts Corporate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.vailresorts.com


The National Brotherhood of Skiers was hands down the most enjoyable group of guests we had while working at the hotel in Big Sky. Those guys were by far the nicest and most fun.




__





Home - National Brotherhood of Skiers, Inc.


To identify, develop and support athletes of color who will WIN international and Olympic winter sports competitions representing the United States and to increase participation in winter sports




www.nbs.org




I believe there is a racial wealth gap. If Vail believes it too I would love to see how Katz tries to tackle this. Maybe start by lowering their bullshit lift ticket prices and let the employees ski the mountain. He serves the predominately white shareholders not the somewhat diverse guests and employees. He’s right about one thing, they are part of the problem.


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> The National Brotherhood of skiers was hands down the most enjoyable group of guests we had while working at the hotel in Big Sky. Those guys were by far the nicest and most fun.


My experience as well when I was a liftie


----------



## Kingslug

To me it's simple..if you want to ski and can afford it..you do. Doesn't matter what race or color you are. I don't see how this can be resolved without lowering the price substantially. But there are other costs that are big as well..Transportation, gear, etc. Its an expensive sport..period.


----------



## ScottySkis

F -1 now lol:

Buy peaks pass 20 % less than last season

Dreaming of crisp sunrises and fresh snow. ?️ ?️ 
Pass prices have been reduced 20%. Get your pass for the 2021-21 season now.
#huntermountain #sunrise. #tbt


https://bit.ly/3jWLMxk


----------



## Ripitz

Enjoy 20% more liftlines


----------



## XTski

Nice Scotty! I am looking at getting Epic since I can go midweek and supplement it with some Mckauly; Platty etc; on a side note here’s a shot of Jonny Mosely demonstrating , in a video on the “Sacramento Bee” , making his pole plant further down the hill in moguls to help get stronger in the bumps, last winter I mentioned about letting the bottom of your grip loose to let the pole get further down the hill, starting to get stoked for the season!


----------



## ScottySkis

Hope this Work out better for us with this change:
"
NEWS: Vail Resorts to Replace Rob Katz with New CEO
Kirsten Lynch, the Company's chief marketing officer will replace Rob Katz as CEO of Vail Resorts on November 1st. Rob Katz will become Executive Chairperson of their board of directors and will continue be remain fully active and engaged with key strategic decisions and priorities.

Press Release: https://investors.vailresorts.com/n...esorts-announces-ceo-and-executive-succession
"


----------



## Peter Minde

Interesting take. Prolly discussed earlier in this thread but it bears repeating. Vail is now a marketing company.









Vail Resorts Names New CEO: What This Means – VT SKI + RIDE


If you thought Vail Resorts was a ski company, think again. And the new CEO, Kristen Lynch is a strong




vtskiandride.com


----------



## Harvey

I saw that. A very click baity headline like: "Katz out as CEO of Vail" or something. Kind of like when Putin was no longer president of Russia?


----------



## Peter Minde

Clickbait? Possibly. I just liked the article. Says something about soul vanishing from skiing.


----------



## Brownski

You’re both right


----------



## Harvey

Peter Minde said:


> Clickbait? Possibly. I just liked the article. Says something about soul vanishing from skiing.


I wasn't saying the article above was click baity. It was a different article.


----------



## MarzNC

Peter Minde said:


> Interesting take. Prolly discussed earlier in this thread but it bears repeating. Vail is now a marketing company.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts Names New CEO: What This Means – VT SKI + RIDE
> 
> 
> If you thought Vail Resorts was a ski company, think again. And the new CEO, Kristen Lynch is a strong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vtskiandride.com


Not much new. Without targeted marketing, would haven't been much reason for VR to buy Peak Resorts to get a bunch of small areas in the midwest, near DC, plus Okemo.

Did find it interesting that the person taking over VR Marketing has a science degree from MIT.

_"Taking over her role, is Ryan Bennett. He joined Vail Resorts in 2018 as vice president of marketing analytics before he was promoted to his current role as vice president of marketing, lift revenue. In addition to leading the company’s season pass and lift ticket businesses, Bennett has driven numerous strategic revenue and guest experience projects. Prior to joining Vail Resorts, Bennett was with Boston Consulting Group for 11 years, including four years as a partner and managing director. Bennett has a PhD in Chemical Engineering from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). A Florida native, Bennett now lives in Boulder, Colorado with his wife and three children._​


----------



## tirolski

Peter Minde said:


> Interesting take. .. but it bears repeating. Vail is now a marketing company.


Yup. It’s been for a few years and tryin to get better at it.

From article, 

_"She was previously chief marketing officer (CMO) for a division of PepsiCo and prior to that at Kraft Foods and Ford Motor Company. At Vail Resorts, Lynch led the vision to drive revenue through a data-driven approach. She built the company’s analytics team, data science team, and a sophisticated best-in-class marketing approach."_

What about snow - skiing?


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> What about snow - skiing?


She did grow up skiing. The CEO before Katz pretty much didn't ski. He's the CEO of AMC Theaters snow.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> She did grow up skiing. The CEO before Katz pretty much didn't ski. He's the CEO of AMC Theaters snow.


Yup, 
That’s why they turn em into Disney-ski-land.


----------



## ScottySkis

Forums will be annoyed with this from Vail I not surprised at all but I agree they sucks Ass big time:
"""NEWS: Vail Resorts Announces Opening Dates, Abandons Early Season Skiing and Riding in The Northeast, Closing Dates No Longer Projected
Vail Resorts has announced their opening dates for all 34 of their North American Resorts. In the Northeast the big change this season is that Mount Snow and Wildcat are no longer slated to attempt a early opening, nor is Okemo which formerly was also one of the resorts to open as soon as possible.
Nov. 19: Hunter (NY), Mt. Snow (VT), Stowe (VT), Wildcat (NH)
Nov. 20: Okemo (VT)
Nov. 24: Mt. Sunapee (NH)
Dec. 3: Attitash (NH), Crotched (NH), Jack Frost (PA)
Dec. 17: Big Boulder (PA), Liberty (PA), Roundtop (PA), Whitetail (PA)

The other notable changes from last season include moving Roundtop one week later, which shortens the potential season in SE-PA, and Jack Frost is switching places with Big Boulder for which one opens first. There will only be one Vail resort in PA open this season prior to December 17th.

These dates are projections and subject to change based on conditions, however they do not generally open earlier than their projections.

Unlike in the recent past, Vail Resorts did not list the projected closing dates at their resorts at this time.""".
??????


----------



## Harvey

Here's the article:









Vail Resorts Announces Opening Dates Across its North American Resorts as it Gears Up for 2021-22 Season | Vail Resorts Corporate






news.vailresorts.com


----------



## tirolski

The Sacklers get to keep their >$100millions from the sale of Peak Resorts to Vail & receive immunity from lawsuits for $billions obtained from selling “legal” opiates, allegedly.




__





Bloomberg - Are you a robot?






www.bloomberg.com












Are the Sacklers the Most Evil Family in American History?


Measured by deaths caused and damage wreaked, the pushers of OxyContin have arguably caused more harm than any other American family.




www.thebulwark.com


----------



## ScottySkis

Work at Cooper mtn good pay beating Compton Vail

"$15.25 minimum starting wage for Ski Cooper workers this season..."









Ski Cooper looks to outpace nearby Vail with $15.25 per hour starting wage


Hiring has not been a problem so far at Ski Cooper, and the 480-acre ski area in southern Eagle County and northern Lake County hopes to keep it that way.




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## raisingarizona

And just like that, businesses are competing for employees with more attractive wages.


----------



## snoloco

Say what you want about Vail, but they build lots of new lifts. 19 announced for 2022. https://liftblog.com/2021/09/23/breaking-vail-resorts-to-build-19-lifts-at-14-resorts-in-2022/


----------



## Low Angle Life

snoloco said:


> Say what you want about Vail, but they build lots of new lifts. 19 announced for 2022. https://liftblog.com/2021/09/23/breaking-vail-resorts-to-build-19-lifts-at-14-resorts-in-2022/


with all that added uphill capacity at mount snow, it will be more likely you contract covid on piste than in the lodge


----------



## snoloco

They're consolidating two triples into one 6 pack and replacing a fixed grip quad with a high speed. Both are being built in currently underutilized areas. It's not the apocalyptic scenario you envision. On the subject of covid, I think the reason this announcement is so big is because Vail sees the pandemic resulting in more people doing outdoor activities, which is good for the ski industry.


----------



## NYSkiBlog

"For context on Vail’s 19 lift announcement, the entire North American ski industry built 28 lifts last year and 38 this year."

-Lift Blog


----------



## tirolski

snoloco said:


> Say what you want about Vail, but ...


Vuck Fail.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Vuck Fail.


Oh that's perfect ??


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Vail Announces Largest Set of Lift Upgrades in North American Ski History


$325M, 19-lift, 14-resort project will transform ski experience at some of the continent’s busiest resorts for 2022-23




www.stormskiing.com


----------



## idratherbskiing

100% opposed to this ever happening...but when vail eventually buys Smuggs, I'm curious what they do with the lifts and terrain. Does the notch become "in bounds" ?


----------



## Harvey

idratherbskiing said:


> 100% opposed to this ever happening...but when vail eventually buys Smuggs, I'm curious what they do with the lifts and terrain. Does the notch become "in bounds" ?


I would cry too.

Inevitable?


----------



## Campgottagopee

idratherbskiing said:


> but when vail eventually buys Smuggs,


Please no


Harvey said:


> I would cry too.


same


Harvey said:


> Inevitable?


I would think so


idratherbskiing said:


> Does the notch become "in bounds" ?


I'd guess no. Tough place to sweep at the end of the day.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> I would cry too.
> 
> Inevitable?


I have no information - but - almost everybody has a number. The question is, what is the Smugs ownership's number?


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> The question is, what is the Smugs ownership's number?


Doesn't Stritzler still own Smuggs?


----------



## idratherbskiing

x10003q said:


> I have no information - but - almost everybody has a number. The question is, what is the Smugs ownership's number?


I bet they have made offers, they know they have to wait them out. Only hope would be co-op...


----------



## raisingarizona

I don’t ski the east so my opinion isn’t worth much but…..

The idea of the two connected feels exciting to me. I mean, it would be the sickest ski area on the east coast. It most definitely will f up the vibe at smuggs tho.


----------



## x10003q

Campgottagopee said:


> Doesn't Stritzler still own Smuggs?


Yes.








Corporate Officers and Directors


This summary sets forth information concerning the present leadership team of Smugglers’ Notch Management Company, Ltd.




www.smuggs.com





I agree with RA - Stowe plus Smuggs would be awesome. Smuggs would lose its 1960s vibe, but for me, who cares. I skied in the 1960s and it sucked compared to today. MRG will always be with us when you need a retro day.


----------



## JTG

x10003q said:


> MRG will always be with us when you need a retro day.


And Magic, too!


----------



## x10003q

JTG said:


> And Magic, too!


Although, Magic does have top to bottom snowmaking that they use, and, at some point, they will get that quad they got from Stratton on-line.


----------



## tirolski

42% increase in # of Epic passes sold as of Sept 17th.
If folks thought lift lines were bad at Vail’s lifts lately, ... just wait.








Vail Resorts: Pass price cut has been a success


Vail Resorts earlier this year cut 20% from the price of all its Epic Pass products. The results have been impressive.




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## raisingarizona

tirolski said:


> 42% increase in # of Epic passes sold as of Sept 17th.
> If folks thought lift lines were bad at Vail’s lifts lately, ... just wait.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts: Pass price cut has been a success
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts earlier this year cut 20% from the price of all its Epic Pass products. The results have been impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com


It’s almost like the price drop is reflecting the actual product.

I don’t care how rad a ski area is if I’m standing in lines all day.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> It’s almost like the price drop is reflecting the actual product.



Haha.

With skiing maybe it's true:






Stowe used to be way more expensive. Was it better then?


----------



## trackbiker

Harvey said:


> Haha.
> 
> With skiing maybe it's true:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stowe used to be way more expensive. Was it better then?


Never been to Stowe but it probably was better then because now it will definitely be more crowded with a 42% increase in pass sales. 
I'll be avoiding Vail areas like the plague just to avoid the crowds. I used to be able to get deals at Jack Frost where I would go on a Sunday morning if I wasn't traveling farther north. Even if they had a deal I would avoid it just for the crowds.
I have a cheap place to stay right near Mount Snow. Used to do one day there and one at Magic or Berkshire East. Now it will be Magic and Berkshire East.I can't imagine what the crowds will look like at Mount Snow this year and, if I recall correctly, they're charging for parking on top of it.


----------



## Harvey

trackbiker said:


> avoiding Vail areas like the plague



Nothing new for me.

Wasn't the Stowe pass something like $1800?


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Nothing new for me.
> 
> Wasn't the Stowe pass something like $1800?


Something like that. Stowe is overrun at this point.


----------



## MarzNC

trackbiker said:


> Never been to Stowe but it probably was better then because now it will definitely be more crowded with a 42% increase in pass sales.
> I'll be avoiding Vail areas like the plague just to avoid the crowds. I used to be able to get deals at Jack Frost where I would go on a Sunday morning if I wasn't traveling farther north. Even if they had a deal I would avoid it just for the crowds.
> I have a cheap place to stay right near Mount Snow. Used to do one day there and one at Magic or Berkshire East. Now it will be Magic and Berkshire East.I can't imagine what the crowds will look like at Mount Snow this year and, if I recall correctly, they're charging for parking on top of it.


The Mansfield side was probably about the same. The changes at Stowe started when the fancy lodge was built on the other side, which was probably what made Stowe a logical purchase for Vail Resorts. The previous owner, AIG, kept the land that still could be developed for private lodging on the Spruce side.



Harvey said:


> Wasn't the Stowe pass something like $1800?


Yep. I was at a Diva gathering at Stowe the season before it was on the Epic pass. I had the MCP and used that for a couple days. The owner of the independent motel I stayed at was very happy with the change. He was going to be able to get Epic passes for himself, his wife, and young daughter the next season and use the money saved for a late season trip out west. The Epic pass gave him plenty of destination resort options after Stowe was done in the spring.


----------



## raisingarizona

The McSki experience! Woohoo!


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> The McSki experience! Woohoo!


$towe has always been like that. Bars on that side of the notch really didn't like it when the Smuggs crew showed up....lol


----------



## tirolski

Folks at Vail left valves open for snow making water since March, allegedly.
Then went to refill their reservoir tank, then this happens...








Colorado public health: Algaecide in Vail Resorts pond water suspected in fish die-off


An algaecide that was toxic to fish entered Mill Creek this week, the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment has learned based on discussions with Vail Resorts.




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Folks at Vail left valves open for snow making water since March, allegedly.
> Then went to refill their reservoir tank, then this happens...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colorado public health: Algaecide in Vail Resorts pond water suspected in fish die-off
> 
> 
> An algaecide that was toxic to fish entered Mill Creek this week, the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment has learned based on discussions with Vail Resorts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com


That is so not cool. Mountain Mngr should have to answer some questions over that.


----------



## Harvey




----------



## ScottySkis

I believe katz is still in charge and just look like different CEO








Who is Vail Resorts New CEO?


It came as a genuine surprise on August 10th when Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz announced a new CEO will be taking his place on November 1st. His replacement will be Kirsten Lynch, the current Chief M…




unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## Harvey

Paid parking $15 or $30 for almost all lots at Mt Snow. Weekends and Holidays.









						Directions By Bus, Train, or Shuttle | Mount Snow Ski Resort
					






					www.mountsnow.com


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Paid parking $15 or $30 for almost all lots at Mt Snow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Directions By Bus, Train, or Shuttle | Mount Snow Ski Resort
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mountsnow.com


When the parking fees were announced in early June, it was described as 60% of the parking. Fair to say that Northeast Epic holders who go there weren't happy. (I don't know Mt. Snow at all.)


----------



## raisingarizona

MarzNC said:


> When the parking fees were announced in early June, it was described as 60% of the parking. Fair to say that Northeast Epic holders who go there weren't happy. (I don't know Mt. Snow at all.)


You don’t want to go there on weekends or holidays unless you like your skiing like rush hour traffic. 

F Epic and F IKON.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> You don’t want to go there on weekends or holidays unless you like your skiing like rush hour traffic.



Mt Snow is maxed. That's why they can do this, it makes good business sense. If they can drive some skiers away and make up for it with parking, that's probably a good thing. 

The fact that I won't go there is irrelevant. The value of their brand to someone like me, is meaningless.


----------



## x10003q

Everybody needs to read this classic *improvement of the guest experience*:

Parking Plan for Winter 2021-22​
As part of our ongoing effort to improve the guest experience at Mount Snow Resort, we are implementing a new parking plan for the 2021-22 winter season.

Premium parking for a daily fee of $15 weekdays and $30 weekends and holiday periods will be available in Lot A and Upper Carinthia. On weekends and holiday periods, Lot B, Lot C, Sundance, and Lower Carinthia will also be paid parking at a rate of $15. Lot D, Lot E, and the Tiered Lots—which comprise nearly half of the resort’s total parking—will remain free daily, and all lots will be free after 1 p.m. throughout the season. Payment will be handled electronically through an application accessible via smartphone.

These changes will *alleviate congestion* to help ensure faster, more efficient parking for all our valued guests, especially at our busiest times."

Yikes, what a bunch of BS.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Everybody needs to read this classic *improvement of the guest experience*:
> As part of our ongoing effort to improve the guest experience at Mount Snow Resort, we are implementing a new parking plan for the 2021-22 winter season.
> Premium parking for a daily fee of $15 weekdays and $30 weekends and holiday periods will be available in Lot A and Upper Carinthia.
> These changes will *alleviate congestion* to help ensure faster, more efficient parking for all our valued guests, especially at our busiest times."
> Yikes, what a bunch of BS.


Just implement another *fast pass for cars* to get around the plebes waiting in line to park.
Mo money for the corp and smooth sailing for folks with extra $.
Win-win.
Vail sucks.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

MarzNC said:


> Fair to say that Northeast Epic holders who go there weren't happy.



I am a Northeast Epic holder and I have been to Mount Snow twice each of the past two winters (three times on a weekend and one day over President's Week)--I wouldn't characterize any of those days as especially crowded except for some congestion near the base and waiting line for the bubble lift. 

As for the extra $15 bucks, I look at it this way: that pass was $475, Hunter is the closest mountain to me, I am going there 3-5 times anyway, throw in a weekend at Stowe and anything above that is essentially free. Would I prefer free parking at Mount Snow? Yes. Will I walk/take the shuttle and park for free? Most likely. But if I do shell out that extra $15 once or twice in the season, I am still way ahead of the game. Furthermore, what we all learned last year is that tailgating in the parking lot can be pretty fun. Pack a lunch (instead of eating/drinking at the Mountain) and grab a $15 spot and again, you're ahead of the game.


----------



## MarzNC

SayvilleSteve said:


> As for the extra $15 bucks, I look at it this way: that pass was $475, Hunter is the closest mountain to me, I am going there 3-5 times anyway, throw in a weekend at Stowe and anything above that is essentially free. Would I prefer free parking at Mount Snow? Yes. Will I walk/take the shuttle and park for free? Most likely. But if I do shell out that extra $15 once or twice in the season, I am still way ahead of the game. Furthermore, what we all learned last year is that tailgating in the parking lot can be pretty fun. Pack a lunch (instead of eating/drinking at the Mountain) and grab a $15 spot and again, you're ahead of the game.


Yep, there are reasons that paid parking has value. Will be happening at Snowbird and Alta on weekends and holidays this season. But season pass holders get it free, while it's the non-passholders who will have to pay if they don't want to take the bus.

My ski buddy opted to pay for the most expensive parking at Copper last season. In that case, nervousness about riding the big shuttle bus was a factor.

JH and Snowmass have had paid parking for the lots within walking distance for years. But they also have multiple large free lots with good shuttle bus service. Even Taos has a small paid lot, but it's rarely full.


----------



## tirolski

Someone wrote a letter to editor of VailDaily.
It relates to Vail Resorts’ employees and all their dependents being restricted from skiing @Vail on opening day today.








						Letter: No skiing for employees on Opening Day
					

Opening Day is a right of passage, a chance to be excited about the upcoming season, an opportunity to feel connected with other people.




					www.vaildaily.com
				



WTF Vail Resorts.


----------



## Tjf1967

Talk about alienating your support staff.


----------



## Harvey

Even if it is a total crowded shit show with thousands showing up how many employees do the have? A few hundred? And many would theoretically be working anyway? Maybe it's about parking? How many employees _want_ to ski opening day?

I agree it's dumb and bad press, but I don't think they care.


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Yep, there are reasons that paid parking has value. Will be happening at Snowbird and Alta on weekends and holidays this season. But season pass holders get it free, while it's the non-passholders who will have to pay if they don't want to take the bus.


Yea on AZ one of the mods is a passholder and he's bitching about it. I don't get it.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Even if it is a total crowded shit show with thousands showing up how many employees do the have? A few hundred? And many would theoretically be working anyway? Maybe it's about parking? How many employees _want_ to ski opening day?
> 
> I agree it's dumb and bad press, but I don't think they care.


The lady who wrote it’s husband works there.
She wants to ski opening day it seems.


----------



## raisingarizona

Restricting employees skiing during holidays and the busiest periods isn’t something new at really big and busy ski areas. It’s often a sort of “all hands on deck” kind of thing.

People will bitch about anything.

Still……Vail sucks. But if you don’t like them don’t ski at their resorts or work for them.

If you hate a ski areas policies or pricing show them with your purchasing choices. That’s capitalism and the consumer has the ability to sway these things by deciding to no longer use products from these companies.

I’ve always been a fan of our ski area and a proponent for their management but unfortunately I’m starting to feel that skiing here isn’t worth my money. Their success is pushing me away but I can’t blame them for that, it’s a business and in that regard they are killing it. My interests are in other places and activities at this point and I’m ok with that.


----------



## Harvey

A few years ago Gore told employees no parking in the upper lot. They were bummed, but IMO there is a difference between being at work and being on vacation.


----------



## gorgonzola

Blue Mt PA did that last season for opening week because of COVID, including family passes. It sucked missing opening day shenanigans but we just went elsewhere and had better skiing anyway.

Haven't heard yet what they're doing this year


----------



## Andy_ROC

Thought I'd share this about Vail Resorts.


tirolski said:


> The lady who wrote it’s husband works there.
> She wants to ski opening day it seems.


They could buy a pass and go for the day, right?


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> Restricting employees skiing during holidays and the busiest periods isn’t something new at really big and busy ski areas. It’s often a sort of “all hands on deck” kind of thing.
> 
> People will bitch about anything.
> Still……Vail sucks. But if you don’t like them don’t ski at their resorts or work for them


Husband is working there. The wife penned the letter.
Don’t know if she could still buy a lift ticket for opening day or what she meant by “restrict”.
I’d guess Vail Resorts would take her cash if she wanted to and was allowed to purchase. Hope they don’t retaliate against him for the letter.
_
"This year Vail Resorts chose to restrict opening day for their employees and all the dependents."_

She wrote a letter about Vail’s rental crisis earlier. 2015.








Vail Daily letter: Rental crisis


For the second time in five years, my now husband and I are being forced out of a rental unit because the owners have decided to pull it off




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> Husband is working there. The wife penned the letter.
> Don’t know if she could still buy a lift ticket for opening day or what she meant by “restrict”.
> I’d guess Vail Resorts would take her cash if she wanted to and was allowed to purchase. Hope they don’t retaliate against him for the letter.
> 
> _"This year Vail Resorts chose to restrict opening day for their employees and all the dependents."_
> 
> She wrote a letter about Vail’s rental crisis earlier. 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Daily letter: Rental crisis
> 
> 
> For the second time in five years, my now husband and I are being forced out of a rental unit because the owners have decided to pull it off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com


Yeah, while I love to bash certain big corps like Vail, I can't at all be upset if they have restrictions on their free or deeply discounted perks for employees and family. Kind of like the flight benefits that airline employees have--- there are restrictions but they're always be able to buy a ticket like everyone else.


----------



## tirolski

Andy_ROC said:


> Yeah, while I love to bash certain big corps like Vail, I can't at all be upset if they have restrictions on their free or deeply discounted perks for employees and family. Kind of like the flight benefits that airline employees have--- there are restrictions but they're always be able to buy a ticket like everyone else.


Yup, but there’s a shortage of employees now, allegedly.
Ain’t gonna make employees and their families any happier telling them their dependents can’t get the “perk” on opening day.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Yea on AZ one of the mods is a passholder and he's bitching about it. I don't get it.


Are you talking about Snowbird or Alta?

Snowbird required parking reservations for 2020-21. The pass holders weren't happy. However, they got used to the system and it worked reasonably well. Parking was full every weekend Jan-Mar. Some spaces were held and released the week before. People could keep checking for cancellations. So for them, the Snowbird approach for 2021-22 is probably considered an improvement. There have been ways to pay for better parking at Snowbird for quite a while. 

Alta has never tried parking reservations or paid parking. So it's a real shift for Altaholics. Meaning the people who get up at 4:00am in order to get to the Wildcat parking lot before the canyon road is closed for a few hours while avalanche mitigation work happens above the road. Last season the parking lots at Alta were usually completely full by 9:30am on Saturdays. Alta was using Twitter to provide alerts about whether or not parking was available. Once full, the only option was to drive back to SLC.

The bitching when Solitude eliminated free parking several years ago was pretty intense. Can pay a few hundred to get a Parking Pass for the season. Much cheaper for people who carpool. Can always take the UTA bus. The parking available for Solitude is pretty small, even after they added another small lot next to a lower mountain lift for people who have a pass and don't need a ticket window. Perhaps about the same capacity as the mid-mountain parking lot at Belleayre.

Access to LCC/BCC is nothing like for destination ski resorts within an hour of metropolitan areas in the Northeast (NYC, Boston). There is a combination of day trips by locals and travelers who stay SLC driving up 2-lane mountain roads. On a clear day with no traffic, driving up to Alta takes 30 min for someone starting right at the base of the canyon. Can be 1-2 hours when there is snow and traffic. The UTA bus is free for passholders, including Ikon. If the road is closed in the morning, the buses get priority when the road opens.

Driving from the Denver area to ski in Summit County for a day trip is different from SLC to LCC/BCC. I-70 can be a parking lot during busy times like Friday afternoon or Sunday late afternoon.


----------



## tirolski

Andy_ROC said:


> Kind of like the flight benefits that airline employees have--- there are restrictions but they're always be able to buy a ticket like everyone else.


$176 today. Don’t know how far the restriction went. Maybe they could get an employee families discount.
Today’s price.


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> $176 today. Don’t know how far the restriction went. Maybe they could get an employee families discount.
> Today’s price.


$10 off per day if you get a 3 out of 5 day ticket - total - $498.00.


----------



## G.ski

raisingarizona said:


> Restricting employees skiing during holidays and the busiest periods isn’t something new at really big and busy ski areas. It’s often a sort of “all hands on deck” kind of thing.
> 
> People will bitch about anything.
> 
> Still……Vail sucks. But if you don’t like them don’t ski at their resorts or work for them.
> 
> If you hate a ski areas policies or pricing show them with your purchasing choices. That’s capitalism and the consumer has the ability to sway these things by deciding to no longer use products from these companies.
> 
> I’ve always been a fan of our ski area and a proponent for their management but unfortunately I’m starting to feel that skiing here isn’t worth my money. Their success is pushing me away but I can’t blame them for that, it’s a business and in that regard they are killing it. My interests are in other places and activities at this point and I’m ok with that.


Agree. The only vote that really matters is the vote you make with your money.


----------



## Harvey

G.ski said:


> Agree. The only vote that really matters is the vote you make with your money.


I think I pissed of one of the mods at AZ with this line of reasoning. ?


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> I think I pissed of one of the mods at AZ with this line of reasoning. ?


I saw that! Alta is a classic but I’ve never thought of it as laid back. They don’t call it the “Altatude” for nuthin!


----------



## G.ski

Harvey said:


> I think I pissed of one of the mods at AZ with this line of reasoning. ?


I was off AZ for a couple of weeks, a mental health break.

There is an extreme case of "know it allness" over there lately. Closed minded people piss me off.

That mod moved to Salt Lake years ago and got used to the old way of things. I can understand the way he feels. I would be a little pissed off too. 

But what are you gonna do?


----------



## Harvey

Here's an unpopular opinion:

I'm tired of skiers who whine about businesses doing business. Many of us, myself included, have benefited, on paper at least, from the shit show that is the market economy. Somehow Vail isn't supposed to do what many of us do at work every single day?

I'm not saying the system is good or just or fair. But if you're going to reject it, reject it. Don't buy the product. 

I REALLY don't like what is happening to skiing. I don't want Vail to buy the mountains I love. I hate to see the economic pressure that megapasses are applying to independents.

But I don't have any right to be outraged by it. I'm part of the problem.


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> Here's an unpopular opinion:
> 
> I'm tired of skiers who whine about businesses doing business. Many of us, myself included, have benefited, on paper at least, from the shit show that is the market economy. Somehow Vail isn't supposed to do what many of us do at work every single day?
> 
> I'm not saying the system is good or just or fair. But if you're going to reject it, reject it. Don't buy the product.
> 
> I REALLY don't like what is happening to skiing. I don't want Vail to buy the mountains I love. I hate to see the economic pressure that megapasses are applying to independents.
> 
> But I don't have any right to be outraged by it. I'm part of the problem.


Yeah maybe but you are also a huge proponent of supporting the little, mom and pop ski areas. The people who are bitching the most are going to continue to buy that mega pass because in their mind they have to go ski mountain rad x or whatever it is. 

I’m with ya, I simply won’t go to those places. It sucks, I really would like to take Cody up to Jackson to ski and meet my old friends but it’s just too much now.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> I saw that! Alta is a classic but I’ve never thought of it as laid back. They don’t call it the “Altatude” for nuthin!


In comparison to neighboring Snowbird, Alta seems more "laid back." But that's on a normal day, not a day when Devil's Castle or the High-T are opening up for the first time since a powder storm.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Here's an unpopular opinion:
> 
> I'm tired of skiers who whine about businesses doing business. Many of us, myself included, have benefited, on paper at least, from the shit show that is the market economy. Somehow Vail isn't supposed to do what many of us do at work every single day?
> 
> I'm not saying the system is good or just or fair. But if you're going to reject it, reject it. Don't buy the product.
> 
> I REALLY don't like what is happening to skiing. I don't want Vail to buy the mountains I love. I hate to see the economic pressure that megapasses are applying to independents.
> 
> But I don't have any right to be outraged by it. I'm part of the problem.


I think the difference is that ski area operators are in the hospitality business. Customer satisfaction and public perception plays a huge part. Voicing concerns about guest experiences and giving feedback both positive and negative ultimately helps shape the product. It comes with the territory and is an integral part of the system. Weren’t you vocal about your displeasure with the paid parking at Gore? Were you wrong to speak up about it? Does it not matter now because you accept it?

Not sure what you mean about being part of the problem. Because you have a business? Because we live in a capitalist society? Because you’re a skier?

Yes, ski areas have to make money to stay in business. They also need to keep their customers happy to do so.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> I think the difference is that ski area operators are in the hospitality business. Customer satisfaction and public perception plays a huge part. Voicing concerns about guest experiences and giving feedback both positive and negative ultimately helps shape the product. It comes with the territory and is an integral part of the system. Weren’t you vocal about your displeasure with the paid parking at Gore? Were you wrong to speak up about it? Does it not matter now because you accept it?
> 
> Not sure what you mean about being part of the problem. Because you have a business? Because we live in a capitalist society? Because you’re a skier?
> 
> Yes, ski areas have to make money to stay in business. They also need to keep their customers happy to do so.


I see your point. 

It’s hard to see your favorite ski area change before your eyes and start to push the dedicated local following away. It’s happening here in a big way. I’m past the point of giving a damn. It is what it is.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> I see your point.
> 
> It’s hard to see your favorite ski area change before your eyes and start to push the dedicated local following away. It’s happening here in a big way. I’m past the point of giving a damn. It is what it is.


This happens at smaller areas too. It happened here at Greek Peak. People don't like change, I don't like change as it's an uncomfortable feeling.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I think I pissed of one of the mods at AZ with this line of reasoning. ?


That place is still around? Amazing. Wonder if my account is still good, that could be interesting ?


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> I see your point.
> 
> It’s hard to see your favorite ski area change before your eyes and start to push the dedicated local following away. It’s happening here in a big way. I’m past the point of giving a damn. It is what it is.


I saw it in Big Sky and is a big reason why I don’t live there anymore.


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> I think the difference is that ski area operators are in the hospitality business. Customer satisfaction and public perception plays a huge part.



IMO this is true in almost every business, not just hospitality. (BTW I work in hospitality, indirectly.)

Not sure what you mean about being part of the problem. Because you have a business? Because we live in a capitalist society? Because you’re a skier?

Yes, ski areas have to make money to stay in business. They also need to keep their customers happy to do so.



Ripitz said:


> Weren’t you vocal about your displeasure with the paid parking at Gore?


I have been upfront about that, maybe not here but in the AZ thread. I agreed with the mod, it changed Gore's brand. I hated it.









Paid Parking at Gore Mountain


I had a chance to see it in action.




nyskiblog.com





I still dont like it. But what is changed for me, is that I no longer believe I have a right to demand that Gore provide the product I want with a pricing model I like. My only right is to vote with my wallet.

I'm saying that it's duplicitous to profit personally from the free market, and then picket when others do the same.



Ripitz said:


> Not sure what you mean about being part of the problem. Because you have a business? Because we live in a capitalist society? Because you’re a skier?



All of it. I enjoy a long season created by snowmaking. That drives the cost of everything up. I've profited from capitalism. And I likely ski Hunter this year. It ain't right for me to pretend my shit don't stink.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Business doing business in a capitalist economy is all well and good (not my personal belief but I understand for many it is) but whats happening in skiing is the same thing that happened in the cable industry and so many other industries under a "free market". It's the duopoly effect where two major players are effectively able to consolidate a market through acquisition and other forces. These controlling companies can collude to set their rates, product packages and customer experience leaving essentially two equally shitty option for the consumer. Epic-Ikon = Verizon-Optimum. I've worked for a company in an effective duopoly, they didn't give a shit about their customers, after all there was only one alternative.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> This happens at smaller areas too. It happened here at Greek Peak. People don't like change, I don't like change as it's an uncomfortable feeling.


Humans hate change. It’s scary.

As a trail builder im involved with a lot of reroutes and rebuilds of old trails and I get a lot of hate for it. Change is a trigger. Im a little weird in the way that I embrace it and try to see the positive in the change or an opportunity to do better.

So what if the Arizona Snowbowl is no longer a place I care to be because of the crowds and disrespectful young, college kid crowd that unapologetically runs our kids over. Im seeing a motivator to get my ass in gear to start figuring out how I can spend 6+ weeks a winter at Taos. I see a net gain in that move!

I think we sometimes need to let go of our pre-perceived notions of how we think things should be and let life happen. It will take you on a cool ride when you do imho.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> I saw it in Big Sky and is a big reason why I don’t live there anymore.


Oh yeah, we used to say (and still do) that Jackson wasn’t part of Wyoming and now Bozeman is no longer a part of Montana.


----------



## Harvey

Low Angle Life said:


> Business doing business in a capitalist economy is all well and good (not my personal belief but I understand for many it is) but whats happening in skiing is the same thing that happened in the cable industry and so many other industries under a "free market". It's the duopoly effect where two major players are effectively able to consolidate a market through acquisition and other forces. These controlling companies can collude to set their rates, product packages and customer experience leaving essentially two equally shitty option for the consumer. Epic-Ikon = Verizon-Optimum. I've worked for a company in an effective duopoly, they didn't give a shit about their customers, after all there was only one alternative.



I agree with all of this. Translated you are saying that capitalism should be regulated, and it is to a large extent. "Capitalists" drive on publicly funded roads and cash their social security checks. The disagreements between people come down to where on the continium we should fall. Are you advocating regulation on Vail?


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> Humans hate change. It’s scary.
> 
> As a trail builder im involved with a lot of reroutes and rebuilds of old trails and I get a lot of hate for it. Change is a trigger. Im a little weird in the way that I embrace it and try to see the positive in the change or an opportunity to do better.
> 
> So what if the Arizona Snowbowl is no longer a place I care to be because of the crowds and disrespectful young, college kid crowd that unapologetically runs our kids over. Im seeing a motivator to get my ass in gear to start figuring out how I can spend 6+ weeks a winter at Taos. I see a net gain in that move!


I'm trying to get where you are by embracing change. Funny we're talking about this because my wife and I had this discussion just last night. The dynamics of our deer camp have changed bigly, mostly due to guys having kids now. That's very foreign to me as I can't fully understand it due to not having kids. What has changed, and honestly pissed me off some, is guys aren't staying at camp as long. This year I'll be embracing the time I have at camp alone. Shenanigans are part of why I love our camp but maybe some solitude will be just as good.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Harvey said:


> I agree with all of this. Translated you are saying that capitalism should be regulated, and it is to a large extent. "Capitalists" drive on publicly funded roads and cash their social security checks. The disagreements between people come down to where on the continium we should fall. Are you advocating regulation on Vail?


I wish I had a solution, my own fear is that at large we've lost control as common folk in the current economic systems. I don't want this to turn political or anything so I won't go much further. The reality is that this duopoly effect is rampant in many industries, capitalism relies on their being winners and losers, some deserve to lose but I think the real losers are us as "consumers".


----------



## Harvey

I also don't want to get political, and if it did, it would probably be as much my fault as yours. Hard to stay away from "capitalism" with a legit discussion on Vail. I appreciate all you guys discussing this is a respectful way. I'm getting a lot from this discussion.


----------



## raisingarizona

This thread is getting real good and good at getting real. I think this is why I love the NYSkiBlog forum so much. There’s a level of respectful maturity here with healthy doses of honesty, vulnerability and a lack of attitudes and that chest thumping crap you get elsewhere.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm trying to get where you are by embracing change. Funny we're talking about this because my wife and I had this discussion just last night. The dynamics of our deer camp have changed bigly, mostly due to guys having kids now. That's very foreign to me as I can't fully understand it due to not having kids. What has changed, and honestly pissed me off some, is guys aren't staying at camp as long. This year I'll be embracing the time I have at camp alone. Shenanigans are part of why I love our camp but maybe some solitude will be just as good.


There’s beauty in alone time out in the forest Camp. Totally embrace that. I guess it’s not for everyone but I get a shit ton of it while working and I absolutely love it.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> we used to say


We can see your Tetons from here.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> My only right is to vote with my wallet.


You also have a right to run a ski blog that is informative. Thank you for doing so.


----------



## Andy_ROC

To avoid big corps, is there a thread where we can talk about the smaller Mom and Pop style mountains?
Sorry but I'm kind of new here so maybe there is.

I think my wife and I are going to go to Powder Mountain Utah this year. I went there 4 years ago and loved it. The place is so chill, not corporate, so sparse off people (they actually limit ticket sales to 1500 per day for >8k acres) and so much to explore. We like to explore. She's an advance beginner comfortable with groomed greens and blues (parallel skiing) and would probably go off piste a bit. We love to explore the mountain rather than just rip laps on the same handful of runs crowded amongst others. May also drive up to Grand Targhee. Interested in hearing about other possible options not limited to that region, east included. 

Anyway please point me in the direction of a thread that talks about other hidden gems. 

Thank you


----------



## tirolski

Got ski map of Vail’s places?
Could be collector's items.
Sell em for $ and buy a pass to an indy.








Vail Resorts Axes Trail Maps at All Its Resorts — PeakRankings


A traditional ski resort staple is disappearing from Vail Resorts mountains, with environmental concerns spearheading the decision.




www.peakrankings.com


----------



## tirolski

Andy_ROC said:


> Anyway please point me in the direction of a thread that talks about other hidden gems.
> 
> Thank you


Didya click Harvey’s “Guide” @ the top of the page. There’s good info there for NY & Vt.


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> You also have a right to run a ski blog that is informative. Thank you for doing so.



Thanks for that Rip. But, I'm not sure this place solving any problems, but it can be fun.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Low Angle Life said:


> I wish I had a solution, my own fear is that at large we've lost control as common folk in the current economic systems...The reality is that this duopoly effect is rampant in many industries, capitalism relies on their being winners and losers, some deserve to lose but I think the real losers are us as "consumers".


The skiing business is no different than any other business that has become more and more concentrated among fewer firms in the last 40 years. At first, consumers all love the benefits that come from new investment, until they realize that they are doing it to suppress competition, not to pay you higher wages or take less money from you. The effect is more noticeable if you live Upstate or other places where the economy has been hollowed out by industry consolidation. 

The economic system requires that some people accumulate wealth, but history tells us that extreme wealth inequality leads to political instability. Vail is an example of the process, and that's why it's difficult to discuss this without going political.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> Translated you are saying that capitalism should be regulated, and it is to a large extent. "Capitalists" drive on publicly funded roads and cash their social security checks. The disagreements between people come down to where on the continium we should fall. Are you advocating regulation on Vail?


I think the history of the ski business, going back to when Vail bought ABasin, Keystone and Breckenridge and everything that's happened since, shows that anti-trust regulation has not been aggressive enough. Skiing may actually be the least important example of that. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

G.ski said:


> The only vote that really matters is the vote you make with your money.


The problem with that is that market concentration means that you have no place else to take your money. You can see that in skiing now. If you don't upfront a bunch of money to Vail or Ikon your choices are limited to small mountains with short seasons, or worse, spending winter in Florida.

mm


----------



## MarzNC

Milo Maltbie said:


> The problem with that is that market concentration means that you have no place else to take your money. You can see that in skiing now. If you don't upfront a bunch of money to Vail or Ikon your choices are limited to small mountains with short seasons, or worse, spending winter in Florida.
> 
> mm


That seems like a northeast viewpoint. At least based on reading descriptions of the Indy locations out west there are quite a few ski areas that are a bargain and have over 500 acres.

In the southeast, the only options are small mountains with 100% snowmaking and a short season so lift tickets have been relatively high compared to other regions. There have been long lines on weekends for decades. I think they got longer after people from the northeast and midwest starting moving to the Sun Belt in the 1980s.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> There’s beauty in alone time out in the forest Camp. Totally embrace that. I guess it’s not for everyone but I get a shit ton of it while working and I absolutely love it.


For sure. I've done a handful of solo camping trips as well as I normally get 2 nites at camp solo, now more like 4. I'm now into it and totally stoked for it. Guess I can share my hunting crew for a few days.....lol


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> If you don't upfront a bunch of money to Vail or Ikon your choices are limited to small mountains with short seasons,



Last year I skied Killington and Hunter one time, but spent the bulk of my money at small mountains with short seasons.


----------



## Ripitz

A few years ago I had a chance to ski a few places with different ownership styles in one season. We had SKI3 passes so we skied Whiteface, Gore and Belle. We were members at Greylock. We skied Platty and Magic. I took a trip to ski Big Sky and was invited to the Yellowstone Club. I really enjoyed all of my experiences and the variety it offered. The combination of government, small private, corporate and member club run ski areas was really cool to see. I think choices are good. Do I have things to bitch about? Sure. Am I allowed? I would hope so. Whiteface couldn’t get their lifts open. Gore was cold as fuck. Big Sky was crazy expensive. The outhouse at Greylock was super smelly and the Yellowstone Club is mad creepy. Did I have an awesome time? Absolutely!

Since that time, Vail has moved into the Northeast in a big way. Do they have a right to do that? Sure. Do they have a right to make a profit? Yes. The problem I have is that they are not just participating in the eastern ski business they are dominating it. Did they really need to drop their prices that low in one shot to acquire all of those customers? Could they not have done that over time? When I was looking at Bromley for the new Mom and Pop thread I saw their season pass is $1,095 and that’s for only one mountain. You get a one day ticket to Jiminy and Canmore, their sister resorts, as a perk. What kind of effect does Vail’s aggression have on them? They have been a New England classic since 1935. People will say that mega passes makes skiing more affordable. It doesn’t. There always has been midweek deals, ski and stay packages, gas station vouchers, ski shop discounted tickets, buddy passes, bring a bottle of water to donate, whatever. There are ways to ski on the cheap.

Animosity towards Vail is nothing new. I saw “Vail sucks” bumper stickers 30 years ago when I took my first trip to Colorado. I don’t think it’s unwarranted and I don’t see it stopping anytime soon.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Ripitz said:


> and the Yellowstone Club is mad creepy.


Like on some illuminati shit?


----------



## raisingarizona

Milo Maltbie said:


> The problem with that is that market concentration means that you have no place else to take your money. You can see that in skiing now. If you don't upfront a bunch of money to Vail or Ikon your choices are limited to small mountains with short seasons, or worse, spending winter in Florida.
> 
> mm


Hey now, the bass fishing down there is pretty darn awesome


----------



## Campgottagopee

When High-End Developers Came for the Last Aspen Ski Bums


In an excerpt from her new book ‘Powder Days,’ Outside contributing editor Heather Hansman looks at how the famous Colorado resort town is emblematic of a national trend, where corporate resorts and a skyrocketing housing costs are driving out all but the most affluent




www.outsideonline.com


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> The problem I have is that they are not just participating in the eastern ski business they are dominating it.



The reason Vail cut the price on the Epic Pass is because they were confident one of three things would happen. Or maybe all of them:

Each individual would eventually spend more in total on skiing
Their mountains would get more crowded and they didn't care about that
They would have so much of the market they be able to dictate pricing

@Stu and I disagree about this all the time. About whether or not it's good for skiing.

Skiing has not become cheaper. The cost of snowmaking has not gone down. Costs are being shifted. Half of Mount Snow weekend/holiday skiers now have to pay $15 or $30 to park. Mt Snow PMB heads up: the LOWER you get your cost/per day/per lift ticket the more you are go to spend on parking or burgers or beer or whatever.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> When High-End Developers Came for the Last Aspen Ski Bums
> 
> 
> In an excerpt from her new book ‘Powder Days,’ Outside contributing editor Heather Hansman looks at how the famous Colorado resort town is emblematic of a national trend, where corporate resorts and a skyrocketing housing costs are driving out all but the most affluent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.outsideonline.com


The death of true, dirt bag ski bum culture is definitely a change I’m not happy about. I’m glad I got to do it before all of this. It happened so fast. It’s kind of crazy.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> The death of true, dirt bag ski bum culture is definitely a change I’m not happy about. I’m glad I got to do it before all of this. It happened so fast. It’s kind of crazy.


Long live the dirtbags!


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> Long live the dirtbags!


I know of a few “last great mountain towns” still out there. The catch is that they don’t have a ski resort though. You gotta be ready to earn those turns!


----------



## Brownski

raisingarizona said:


> The death of true, dirt bag ski bum culture is definitely a change I’m not happy about. I’m glad I got to do it before all of this. It happened so fast. It’s kind of crazy.





Ripitz said:


> Long live the dirtbags!


You know I agree. Other than that this thread has taken some odd turns. Since we’re full on political now… never mind. Fuck it. Go check out Venezuela’s ski culture if you don’t like ours.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> I know of a few “last great mountain towns” still out there. The catch is that they don’t have a ski resort though. You gotta be ready to earn those turns!


Stanley ID and Cooke City MT always come to my mind.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> The reason Vail cut the price on the Epic Pass is because they were confident one of three things would happen. Or maybe all of them:
> 
> Each individual would eventually spend more in total on skiing
> Their mountains would get more crowded and they didn't care about that
> They would have so much of the market they be able to dictate pricing



Are you thinking about the 20% decrease for 2021-22? I would add that VR was scared that people who were put off traveling to destination resorts in 2020-21 had found that skiing locally without having to fly turned out to be quite a lot of fun. That could mean that a family who was budgeting for a trip out west on Epic every year might decide that every other year might be enough. Epic paid off in 2008 because it was cheap and the volume was much higher than even Katz hoped it would be. It was a gamble that paid off when VR was is quite weak financially. EpicMix turned out to be popular too.

There is a regional Epic pass for the northeast and Tahoe. There are a few local passes in the midwest. That leaves a lot of potential Epic pass customers in the rest of the country who have to travel a fair distance to make it worth getting the Full Epic or Epic Local (no holidays).

An indication of not caring that much about crowding on the slopes is that VR opted to not make use of reservations on Saturdays or typical blackout dates.

Based on reading Chris Diamond's books, it seemed that ASC didn't know how to operate in the west based on what worked in the northeast. It feels to me like VR doesn't understand the northeast and mid-Atlantic customer base well enough because of the history of Epic resorts in the west. The transition for the three midwest former family-owned ski resorts went much better. But VR vastly improved lifts and other aspects of those mountains pretty quickly.

For that matter, had Peak Resorts really transitioned enough to understand the mid-Atlantic (Hunter, PA)?


----------



## Ripitz

Brownski said:


> Go check out Venezuela


Great surfing


----------



## Low Angle Life

Brownski said:


> You know I agree. Other than that this thread has taken some odd turns. Since we’re full on political now… never mind. Fuck it. Go check out Venezuela’s ski culture if you don’t like ours.


I mean if you really want this to devolve to shitposting...


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Stanley ID and Cooke City MT always come to my mind.


I'd like to go to Cooke City to ride sleds and drink beer.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> The death of true, dirt bag ski bum culture is definitely a change I’m not happy about. I’m glad I got to do it before all of this. It happened so fast. It’s kind of crazy.


Same 
Wouldn't trade my time bumming for anything.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ely, Nevada is my new favorite spot. It’s as dirt bag as it gets and is surrounded by big, beautiful mountains


----------



## Low Angle Life

raisingarizona said:


> Ely, Nevada is my new favorite spot. It’s as dirt bag as it gets and is surrounded by big, beautiful mountains


I hear the backcountry terrain outside of Elko and Verdi Peak is heavy.


----------



## Brownski

Low Angle Life said:


> I mean if you really want this to devolve to shitposting.


well


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> well


I don’t get it.

Shitposting?

I started the thread and could care less where it goes. Why would you care about that anyways? It seems like a silly thing to let bother you.

Or maybe I don’t really understand Internet forums ?‍♂️?


----------



## raisingarizona

Low Angle Life said:


> I hear the backcountry terrain outside of Elko and Verdi Peak is heavy.


It’s everywhere up there. Huge spines of alpine mountains run south to north, one range after another all the way across the 50 and up to the 80.

Most homes in the area are 80 to 150k. The cost of living is next to nothing.

Most of the approaches though……are of the pretty involved to the brutal, kill the weak, super epic death march sort of thing. I think you’d want a snowmobile and a jeep or some other kind of competent off road vehicle.


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> It’s everywhere up there. Huge spines of alpine mountains run south to north, one range after another all the way across the 50 and up to the 80.
> 
> Most homes in the area are 80 to 150k. The cost of living is next to nothing.
> 
> Most of the approaches though……are of the pretty involved to the brutal, kill the weak, super epic death march sort of thing. I think you’d want a snowmobile and a jeep or some other kind of competent off road vehicle.


Sounds dreamy


----------



## Brownski

raisingarizona said:


> I don’t get it.
> 
> Shitposting?
> 
> I started the thread and could care less where it goes. Why would you care about that anyways? It seems like a silly thing to let bother you.
> 
> Or maybe I don’t really understand Internet forums ?‍♂️?


I took the post I was responding to to mean that I was the shit poster. The previous page was full of shit posts. Whatever,

I guess I don't think that hating Vail but not hating capitalism makes you a hypocrite, which seemed to be the direction things were going there. Maybe I'm too sensitive. I am going through some personal shit right now so maybe that's making me prickly.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Brownski said:


> I took the post I was responding to to mean that I was the shit poster. The previous page was full of shit posts. Whatever,
> 
> I guess I don't think that hating Vail but not hating capitalism makes you a hypocrite, which seemed to be the direction things were going there. Maybe I'm too sensitive. I am going through some personal shit right now so maybe that's making me prickly.


Sorry to hear that, nothing here is personal. We all have the right to our own view points, I was trying to keep things for the most part out of the weeds of politics. Our world lately is constructed on pushing us apart and creating difference. We have more alike as individuals than our media wants us to believe, and here we all share a passion for snow. It's impossible to not be a hypocrite in the world today, everything can seem like a contradiction. Bringing up Venezuela when I was just trying to make a legitimate observation on the impacts of market forces on the ski industry just came across as reactionary. Don't get me wrong I might listen to a lot of Woody Guthrie, but I also ain't lookin to live under a dictator like Nicolas Maduro, the snow probably sucks that close to the equator anyway .


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> Are you thinking about the 20% decrease for 2021-22? I would add that VR was scared that people who were put off traveling to destination resorts in 2020-21 had found that skiing locally without having to fly turned out to be quite a lot of fun. That could mean that a family who was budgeting for a trip out west on Epic every year might decide that every other year might be enough. Epic paid off in 2008 because it was cheap and the volume was much higher than even Katz hoped it would be. It was a gamble that paid off when VR was is quite weak financially. EpicMix turned out to be popular too.



Yes that 20% was the most notable ticket price cut in skiing history IMO. Stowe's cut was huge but didn't affect nearly as many.

I don't have any inside info but I don't see Vail as scared.

Ikon didn't cut prices, I wonder how their volume and revenue compared to the previous year vs Vail.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Yes that 20% was the most notable ticket price cut in skiing history IMO. Stowe's cut was huge but didn't affect nearly as many.


Maybe . . . when the Epic pass came out for the VR resorts in Colorado, the cost difference between a pass that covered multiple big mountains within driving distance of Denver and a single resort pass was higher than $600 for 2007-08. I vaguely remember $800. The VR Board thought Rob Katz was crazy. The other CO resorts were astonished.

March 2008








Vail Resorts Announces Epic Pass


Broomfield, Colo. – Most skiers and snowboarders dream of an 'epic' season. Now, Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE: MTN) is making that dream a reality with the




www.skimag.com




_" . . .
Epic Season Pass, a new unlimited, unrestricted season pass that’s valid for the entire 2008-2009 ski and snowboard season at five of the top-rated resorts in the world: Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone and Heavenly, all for an initial price of only $579.
. . ."_


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Ikon didn't cut prices, I wonder how their volume and revenue compared to the previous year vs Vail.


Alterra and their independent partners are privately held for the most part. VR is a public company. Makes a difference IMHO.



Harvey said:


> I don't have any inside info but I don't see Vail as scared.


When VR's stock dropped due to the pandemic, I would guess there were Board members who were scared. Remember, Katz's role has changed. There must be reasons behind that shift besides the fact that he's getting older.

The company I worked for after grad school was a small private start up in 1987, went public very successfully in 1993. After a while, ending up going private, and then re-emerged on the NYSE several years later. So that's one reason I have a sense of how executive decisions are made differently between a private or public company. There is also a big software company based in the Triangle that's been privately held from the start. The few attempts to go public, even for a small percentage of the company, have been stymied by the personality of the Co-Founder and long-time CEO. It was fascinating to compare his personality from my companies co-founder and first CEO because they were both statisticians.


----------



## raisingarizona

I hear Vail is having a tough time getting their ski areas staffed this year. Unofficial Networks ran a story earlier today on the problems Wildcats been having. Didn’t Vail make a big to do media release about their new starting wage of 18 an hour?

Little Mount Bohemia posted this today.


----------



## tirolski

Vail’s Park City operations were busy Sunday due to wind stopping the gondola at noon.
Some folks didn’t get back down till 5.








Canyons skiers shuttled from mountain during wind hold


Skiers at the Park City Mountain Resort Canyons Village area couldn’t get down the mountain Sunday afternoon when the resort stopped the Red Pine Gondola due to high winds.




www.kpcw.org


----------



## raisingarizona

tirolski said:


> Vail’s Park City operations were busy Sunday due to wind stopping the gondola at noon.
> Some folks didn’t get back down till 5.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canyons skiers shuttled from mountain during wind hold
> 
> 
> Skiers at the Park City Mountain Resort Canyons Village area couldn’t get down the mountain Sunday afternoon when the resort stopped the Red Pine Gondola due to high winds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kpcw.org


After reading the complaints and other comments I have to file that under first world problems. Wind happens. Ski areas out here are in desperation mode trying to get Christmas vacation bookings. It’s been scary warm.


----------



## jasonwx

Looks like conditions will improve out west next week


----------



## x10003q

raisingarizona said:


> I hear Vail is having a tough time getting their ski areas staffed this year. Unofficial Networks ran a story earlier today on the problems Wildcats been having. Didn’t Vail make a big to do media release about their new starting wage of 18 an hour?
> 
> Little Mount Bohemia posted this today.


They need offer $20 because the closest town, Copper Harbor, has a population of 85 and they all have 3 jobs already.


----------



## raisingarizona

x10003q said:


> They need offer $20 because the closest town, Copper Harbor, has a population of 85 and they all have 3 jobs already.


I was wondering about the cost of living up there.

The mountain bike trails sure look expensive, and awesome.


----------



## raisingarizona

jasonwx said:


> Looks like conditions will improve out west next week


We shall see. In most places it’s going to pile up on bare ground.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> I was wondering about the cost of living up there.
> 
> The mountain bike trails sure look expensive, and awesome.



With NoVT (?) probably the most reliable snow in the "east."


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> With NoVT (?) probably the most reliable snow in the "east."


Copper Harbor, Michigan


----------



## G.ski

x10003q said:


> They need offer $20 because the closest town, Copper Harbor, has a population of 85 and they all have 3 jobs already.


Yeah $18 won't cut it nowadays. 
School bus driver openings here in Dutchess are paying $21 an hour with a $3000 signing bonus.


----------



## snoloco

raisingarizona said:


> After reading the complaints and other comments I have to file that under first world problems. Wind happens. Ski areas out here are in desperation mode trying to get Christmas vacation bookings. It’s been scary warm.


It was high winds. The gondola could not run. Not sure what else could have been done other than to wait or shuttle people out with the vehicles they had, which they did. No one was in danger. I think the real problems here were poor communication, and the fact that it took 4 hours to even start getting people out.


----------



## Ripitz

snoloco said:


> It was high winds


That blows


----------



## Andy_ROC

x10003q said:


> They need offer $20 because the closest town, Copper Harbor, has a population of 85 and they all have 3 jobs already.


Doesn't help that cost of living and real estate is so high that those with service jobs can't afford to live in anything beside barracks housing, a car or cardboard box. But at least the really rich people have gobbled up all the land so they can enjoy their $5M homes for 1 week a year that otherwise sit vacant or as an airbnb.


----------



## raisingarizona

Andy_ROC said:


> Doesn't help that cost of living and real estate is so high that those with service jobs can't afford to live in anything beside barracks housing, a car or cardboard box. But at least the really rich people have gobbled up all the land so they can enjoy their $5M homes for 1 week a year that otherwise sit vacant or as an airbnb.


Everything is pretty f-d at this point.

I was talking to a coworker the other day about this and the conversation went into how every civilization and nation has a lifespan to it and we are unfortunately at our end. It is what it is.

Has anyone here payed attention to the homeless crisis all along the west coast this past year? Things are getting ugly.


----------



## snoloco

You sure jumped quickly from "there's a problem in many ski towns that needs to be solved" to "it's the end of the world". There are ways to solve a housing shortage. Limits on short term rentals, deed restrictions, empty home taxes, and increasing zoning density can all help. They're going to need to find a way because if businesses are so short staffed that they can't function, then property values (and STR revenue) are going to plummet.


----------



## tirolski

What does this have to do with F Vail? Askin for a friend.


----------



## Harvey

I can see how it's related. Not saying all is Vail's fault, but maybe they are part of it.

Some ski towns (out west especially?) are so expensive that the staff can't afford to live there. Snoloco is right about one thing, if all the ops quit, the market will compensate. Wages will rise, or conditions will improve, because no one at the top is going to let those assets (lifts, etc) sit idle.

For whatever reason, people seem a lot less afraid to quit these days. It's having a profound effect. I know the theory well, but never thought I would see the effect this dramatically.

Vail is certainly part of it. Driving up the cost and target market for skiing.

I actually think snowmaking, and the expectation of a 3-4 month season, in the low-elevation east, is part of it. Snowmaking is really expensive and reliance on it seems to be increasing. If you have high fixed cost, you gotta maximize your money per skier, or pack em in, or both. Your properties have to cater to the rich, and do big volume.

IF my idea is legit, it would mean we too are complicit.


----------



## snoloco

I believe the typical season length is largely determined by the placement of holiday weeks, not passholders demanding that resorts push the season. Resorts have to start making snow in November in order to build out terrain and open all their lifts by Christmas, which you claim is like 35% of the season's revenue. If you already have the snow, then you might as well open, so that's why so many resorts open Thanksgiving weekend. Then you have to make it through President's Weekend and perhaps an early spring break in certain years with 100% terrain, and the snow that you already made is going to last to April most years, so you might as well stay open till it melts. Unless the weather early season is terrible, which means you're screwed for Christmas, or there's a nasty melt out at the beginning of March, you're going to end up with the same season length every year.


----------



## raisingarizona

“All lifts by Christmas”

Yes!


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> I can see how it's related. Not saying all is Vail's fault, but maybe they are part of it.
> 
> Some ski towns (out west especially?) are so expensive that the staff can't afford to live there. Snoloco is right about one thing, if all the ops quit, the market will compensate. Wages will rise, or conditions will improve, because no one at the top is going to let those assets (lifts, etc) sit idle.
> 
> For whatever reason, people seem a lot less afraid to quit these days. It's having a profound effect. I know the theory well, but never thought I would see the effect this dramatically.
> 
> Vail is certainly part of it. Driving up the cost and target market for skiing.
> 
> I actually think snowmaking, and the expectation of a 3-4 month season, in the low-elevation east, is part of it. Snowmaking is really expensive and reliance on it seems to be increasing. If you have high fixed cost, you gotta maximize your money per skier, or pack em in, or both. Your properties have to cater to the rich, and do big volume.
> 
> IF my idea is legit, it would mean we too are complicit.


Come on now - no snowmaking is no skiing in the East and has been since the 1970s. Almost every ski area in the East has been over 70% snowmaking coverage since the 1990s and the big boys are all approaching 100% coverage. Snowmaking is required - no different than lifts or trails. Snowmaking has probably become cheaper due to modern design, computer controls, less manpower needed, and better and cheaper power generation including solar and wind.

If you want to eliminate the housing crunch at eastern resorts the first step would be to eliminate snowmaking.


----------



## Harvey

Sno - Your cause and effect may be backwards. Not sure.

One thing I am sure of in 1940, if it didn't snow the mountain didn't open.

Now we expect it to open whether it snows or not.

X - give me a different theory. It's a fact that skiing used to be a middle class sport. What changed? Sincere question.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> expect


This is where Sno can learn a few things. 
Expectations are predetermined disappointments.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Harvey said:


> It's a fact that skiing used to be a middle class sport. What changed? Sincere question.


Slow erosion of the American middle class due to the off shoring of US manufacturing jobs could be part of that. Rising costs of doing business for Ski areas due to rising energy and labor costs could be another. Corporate consolidation leading to less price competition may also factor in. When the middle class is shrinking and has less and less disposable income each year luxuries get put on the chopping block and skiing is far from necessity. Backcountry also continues to be the fastest growing segment of the sport, is this because of the rising costs associated with resort skiing, declining guest experience or just not enjoying spending time around a bunch of entitled rich people? 

You can dine on white table cloth with real silverware for lunch at Stowe, I know this is a bit on the extreme side of things but can't you also get a "boot boy" for lack of a better term at Deer Valley? The ski industry marketing and tailoring their guest experience towards the wealthy certainly creates and vibe that skiing isn't for the common folk.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> “All lifts by Christmas”
> 
> Yes!


That’s what I’m asking Santa for. And a nice snow season.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> give me a different theory. It's a fact that skiing used to be a middle class sport. What changed? Sincere question.


Detachable lifts. Death of the family hills. Gear price inflation…. A general perception that it’s a rich white person sport driven by dopes constantly posting on the internet that it’s a rich white person sport. A middle class family in Orange County can be a skiing family for relatively cheap at Mt Peter by buying used gear at their annual swap and buying midweek night passes but most of them are probably unaware of this.


----------



## tirolski

Ya can ski places like Pete’s mountain in The Kingdom via rope tow instead of Vail’s shitshow, just sayin.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> give me a different theory. It's a fact that skiing used to be a middle class sport. What changed? Sincere question.





Brownski said:


> Detachable lifts. Death of the family hills. Gear price inflation…. A general perception that it’s a rich white person sport driven by dopes constantly posting on the internet that it’s a rich white person sport. A middle class family in Orange County can be a skiing family for relatively cheap at Mt Peter by buying used gear at their annual swap and buying midweek night passes but most of them are probably unaware of this.


Skiing still can be a sport for the middle class. $150 a year for a family membership at Mount Greylock Ski Club. If there is a family out there that wants to join and can’t afford that I will sponsor them.


----------



## witch hobble

Harvey said:


> It's a fact that skiing used to be a middle class sport. What changed? Sincere question.


Ehhhhh. Skiing used to be “more accessible” to the middle class perhaps. And a larger % of people were categorized as such. And of course there will be outlying mountains, families, individuals etc. But I don’t think it has been a “middle class sport” during it’s time in America.


----------



## Harvey

Witch may have a point, depending on how far back you go. But the lift advancement may have something to do with it too. When people had to herringbone up at the North Creek Ski Bowl, I don't think it was a rich mans sport. Or after Schaeffer added that first rope tow.

I know this is 5 years old, but as I mentioned before, it's the latest version available for free. I have no idea if the methodology is sound or not. Data is based on the NSAA National Demographic Study.





This rise in income for skiers was at a time of low inflation. Remember that the median HHI in the US is around $68k and that is for 2020, not 2017.

It's an opinion, dope seems a bit harsh.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> When people had to herringbone up at the North Creek Ski Bowl, I don't think it was a rich mans sport. Or after Schaeffer added that first rope tow.


You are most definitely correct. If it was a rich mans sport my family never would've gotten into it. Somewhere my mom has pics of skiing the ski bowl in the 30's and 40's. Maybe I'll ask her over X-Mas if she knows where they are.


----------



## Harvey

Campgottagopee said:


> Somewhere my mom has pics of skiing the ski bowl in the 30's and 40's. Maybe I'll ask her over X-Mas if she knows where they are.



That would be so cool!


----------



## witch hobble

People of more modest means who live close to the hill have always been more likely to at least have the opportunity to become skiers than people of modest means who live in the cities.

My grandfather was an early ski customer of the North Creek area. He probably fits a profile. He herringboned the ski bowl, he rode up and slid down, he came in on the train or in a shared car. He was fairly young sporty guy who grew up in Fairmont, WV (obviously not skiing) but was working at GE in the mid/late 30s, about to join the war effort, then settle into comfortable suburban post war family life with leisure time for skiing.


----------



## raisingarizona

A lot of tiny, super rural western towns had their own rope tow 60+ years ago and were only used by the local community. They didn’t have much money.

I would argue that this countries skiing roots had little to do with it being an elitist sport for the wealthy. I think Sun Valley was that sort of place but most other rope toe hills were for regular folk.


----------



## witch hobble

It’s a scale thing. Once it became “the ski industry” the emphasis was on people with disposable income and leisure time.

More people skied a couple trails at Killiington last weekend than the sum total of people who rode 100 of those rope tows over a year.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I know this is 5 years old, but as I mentioned before, it's the latest version available for free. I have no idea if the methodology is sound or not. Data is based on the NSAA National Demographic Study.
> 
> This rise in income for skiers was at a time of low inflation. Remember that the median HHI in the US is around $68k and that is for 2020, not 2017.
> 
> It's an opinion, dope seems a bit harsh.


The rich got richer, explains yer graph.
Please explain the harsh dope opinion.


----------



## Harvey

witch hobble said:


> Once it became “the ski industry” the emphasis was on people with disposable income and leisure time.



When (what year) did this happen?

I still think it has to do with high fixed costs.



tirolski said:


> The rich got richer, explains yer graph.



The "rich got richer" may be true, but the graph only addresses the 5% of Americans who ski. So it only explains the graph if you are saying that skiers are rich people.

I tried to read the study to see if the income numbers quoted were mean or median, but I didn't see it.

Only this:


----------



## witch hobble

Harvey said:


> When (what year) did this happen?
> 
> I still think it has to do with high fixed costs.


It’s a cultural change/evolution, so it’s not like a switch was just flicked. Late 30s to early 60s. There were cottage industries in places like North Creek during the 1930s, but I’d say by the time that you could find a ski shop in a wealthy city or suburb away from the mountains, and that mountains like Vail had real estate marketing along with their initial design plans….you were looking at an industry.


----------



## Campgottagopee

witch hobble said:


> People of more modest means who live close to the hill have always been more likely to at least have the opportunity to become skiers than people of modest means who live in the cities.


So true
It wasn't until I was in 7th grade that I realized people didn't ski....lol


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> The "rich got richer" may be true, but the graph only addresses the 5% of Americans who ski. So it only explains the graph if you are saying that skiers are rich people.


Would never say skiers are rich people. C’mon man.
The Great Recession happened at the beginning of that period and the market came back.
See chart B in here: 








Household income growth slowed markedly in 2017 and was stronger for those at the top, while earnings declined slightly


Today’s report from the Census Bureau shows a marked slowdown in median household income growth relative to previous years. Median household incomes rose 1.8 percent, after an impressive 5.1 percent gain in 2015 and a 3.1 percent gain in 2016; median non-elderly household income saw a similar...




www.epi.org


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> harsh dope


Makes ya cough


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> Makes ya cough


That brown frown


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> Would never say skiers are rich people. C’mon man.
> The Great Recession happened at the beginning of that period and the market came back.
> See chart B in here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Household income growth slowed markedly in 2017 and was stronger for those at the top, while earnings declined slightly
> 
> 
> Today’s report from the Census Bureau shows a marked slowdown in median household income growth relative to previous years. Median household incomes rose 1.8 percent, after an impressive 5.1 percent gain in 2015 and a 3.1 percent gain in 2016; median non-elderly household income saw a similar...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.epi.org


You lost me. That is an article about change in total US HH income for one year, 2017. It doesn't directly apply to skiers in a way that I can see.


----------



## x10003q

Seven Springs, Hidden Valley, and Laurel Mtn sold to Vail.








Seven Springs Mountain Resort being sold to Vail Resorts Inc.


Seven Springs Mountain Resort, Hidden Valley Resort and Laurel Mountain Ski Area will be sold to Vail Resorts Inc.




observer-reporter.com


----------



## trackbiker

x10003q said:


> Seven Springs, Hidden Valley, and Laurel Mtn sold to Vail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seven Springs Mountain Resort being sold to Vail Resorts Inc.
> 
> 
> Seven Springs Mountain Resort, Hidden Valley Resort and Laurel Mountain Ski Area will be sold to Vail Resorts Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> observer-reporter.com


That sucks. I was hoping to check out Laurel Mountain if I went to Blue Knob on the Indy Pass if I had business out that way. I guess I won't be able to check out Laurel until Vail doesn't renew the lease with the state of PA.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> You lost me. That is an article about change in total US HH income for one year, 2017. It doesn't directly apply to skiers in a way that I can see.


Lookit the lines on the graph in Figure B. Low percentile folks don’t have incomes go up from 2007 to 2017. The top bunch do. i.e. richer got richer. Maybe Marz who’s good at charts can help to explain.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Seven Springs, Hidden Valley, and Laurel Mtn sold to Vail.


Another three bite the dust.


----------



## witch hobble

x10003q said:


> Seven Springs, Hidden Valley, and Laurel Mtn sold to Vail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seven Springs Mountain Resort being sold to Vail Resorts Inc.
> 
> 
> Seven Springs Mountain Resort, Hidden Valley Resort and Laurel Mountain Ski Area will be sold to Vail Resorts Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> observer-reporter.com


I was going to post about this too.

Vail currently has 5 Colorado ski areas……..8 Pennsylvania Ski areas


----------



## witch hobble




----------



## tirolski

witch hobble said:


> Vail currently has 5 Colorado ski areas……..8 Pennsylvania Ski areas


They wanna be closer to more people. It is The Keystone State.

_"As a company, we have been focused on acquiring resorts near major metropolitan areas as we know many skiers and riders build their passion for the sport close to home. These great ski areas in Pennsylvania are a perfect complement to our existing resorts, creating a much stronger connection and compelling offering to our current and future guests in *Pittsburgh* as well as those in other critical markets such as *Washington, D.C., Baltimore and Cleveland*."_

Here’s what was told to investors, allegedly.




__





Vail Resorts to Acquire Seven Springs Mountain Resort, Hidden Valley Resort and Laurel Mountain Ski Area in Pittsburgh Area | Vail Resorts, Inc.


The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.



investors.vailresorts.com


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> . A general perception that it’s a rich white person sport driven by dopes constantly posting on the internet that it’s a rich white person sport. .


This seems to be an odd opinion.

Dopes on the internet post a lot of things that don’t become “general perceptions”. Why have dopes been so successful in making this one stick?


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> If you want to eliminate skiing the housing crunch at eastern resorts the first step would be to eliminate snowmaking.


FIFY.


----------



## witch hobble

tirolski said:


> They wanna be closer to more people. It is The Keystone State.
> 
> _"As a company, we have been focused on acquiring resorts near major metropolitan areas as we know many skiers and riders build their passion for the sport close to home. These great ski areas in Pennsylvania are a perfect complement to our existing resorts, creating a much stronger connection and compelling offering to our current and future guests in *Pittsburgh* as well as those in other critical markets such as *Washington, D.C., Baltimore and Cleveland*."_
> 
> Here’s what was told to investors, allegedly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts to Acquire Seven Springs Mountain Resort, Hidden Valley Resort and Laurel Mountain Ski Area in Pittsburgh Area | Vail Resorts, Inc.
> 
> 
> The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.
> 
> 
> 
> investors.vailresorts.com


Oh I get it.


----------



## Ripitz

witch hobble said:


> Vail currently has 5 Colorado ski areas……..8 Pennsylvania Ski areas


WTF? Don’t we have monopoly laws? When do they kick in?


----------



## x10003q

Pre WW2, skiing in the US was mostly supported by European immigrants. Skiing was just part of the lifestyle for these immigrants and when they came here they started the figure how they could continue to enjoy the various types of skiing - x country, jumping and downhill. For example, NJ was home to almost 30 ski areas/jumping areas. The lack of consistent snow made skiing in NJ an infrequent pleasure. Getting to northern areas in NYS/VT/NH pre-interstate highway was difficult. 
Locals in the mountains where just trying to survive the winters. The wealthy headed to the Alps, while the regular people were starting to get familiar with rope tows if and when it snowed.

During the 1930s, places like Sun Valley, Stowe, and Mt Tremblant were being developed to try and replicate the European skiing resort experience. The glamor of skiing was marketed to the masses. From the 1930s to the 1950s (pre snowmaking), skiing in the East was still a fun hobby if it snowed. Farmers would throw up a rope tow or t-bar and try and make some money during the winter.

Post WW2, some American soldiers (10th mountain division specifically) came back from Europe with a love of skiing and the vision to see that the USA had the mountains to support the skiing. These visionaries developed the 'ski business' that brought us to where we are today. The refinement of snowmaking has made the sport grow to something customers could plan to do in the future. The advent of chairlifts has made it easier to ski. The combination of snowmaking and chairlifts put a lot of the small, mom and pop areas out of business.

Skiing certainly is not a cheap sport to enjoy, however, it can be affordable. I do not think it is any more expensive today vs the 1960s-1980s to try and figure out how to ski.


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> WTF? Don’t we have monopoly laws? When do they kick in?


This is just a guess - Jack Frost and Big Boulder were sister areas in the Poconos, Liberty/Roundtop/Whitetail were sister areas in the south central Pa region and this new purchase was also 2 sister areas and the lease in the Pittsburgh area. None of these 3 ski area groups directly competed.


----------



## Brownski

MC2 said:


> This seems to be an odd opinion.
> 
> Dopes on the internet post a lot of things that don’t become “general perceptions”. Why have dopes been so successful in making this one stick?


I don’t know. I guess it’s not just the internet and maybe I shouldn’t have used the word dope. It just strikes me as a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. “Everybody knows it’s just for rich people” becomes accepted wisdom through repetition so people don’t look into affordable ways to pursue it. One of my nephews made me really frustrated recently. He gave up snowboarding because it’s too expensive. It’s only too expensive if you buy all your gear brand new and don’t hunt up some good deals on passes. I tried talking sense to him but I don’t think my message got through.


----------



## Brownski

x10003q said:


> Post WW2, some American soldiers (10th mountain division specifically) came back from Europe with a love of skiing and the vision to see that the USA had the mountains to support the skiing. These visionaries developed the 'ski business' that brought us to where we are today.


This is true but weren’t those guys were in the 10th because they had already learned to love skiing during the 30s when it really exploded as a sport in the US?


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> This is true but weren’t those guys were in the 10th because they had already learned to love skiing during the 30s when it really exploded as a sport in the US?


Yes and the 10th Mtn was loaded with skiing immigrants or their kids.


----------



## Brownski

x10003q said:


> Yes and the 10th Mtn was loaded with skiing immigrants or their kids.


Now that you mention it, weren’t some of the Von Trapp kids in there?


----------



## MC2

Brownski said:


> He gave up snowboarding because it’s too expensive. It’s only too expensive if you buy all your gear brand new and don’t hunt up some good deals on passes..


I think that a lot of times that people say something is “too expensive”, they mean: “I prefer to spend my money on different things”

If people really loved doing the thing, they’d find a way to make it work. If they don’t care too much about it, they won’t


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> Now that you mention it, weren’t some of the Von Trapp kids in there?


Yes!!








Famous 10th Mountain Division Veterans


Early in World War II, the world heard about two heavily armored Russian divisions invading Finland, only to be crushed by Finnish troops on skis. Charles "Minn




www.adventure-journal.com


----------



## x10003q

MC2 said:


> I think that a lot of times that people say something is “too expensive”, they mean: “I prefer to spend my money on different things”
> 
> If people really loved doing the thing, they’d find a way to make it work. If they don’t care too much about it, they won’t


This times 10. There are families in my neighborhood who go to Disney and stay on site every year during prime vacation time. They constantly bust my stones about skiing. I would bet they spend way more in their 1 week at Disney then we spend as a family during an entire ski season.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Yes and the 10th Mtn was loaded with skiing immigrants or their kids.


One of my uncles was in the 10th mountain division during WWII and his dad came to America from Tyrol as a kid.


----------



## Brownski

x10003q said:


> This times 10. There are families in my neighborhood who go to Disney and stay on site every year during prime vacation time. They constantly bust my stones about skiing. I would bet they spend way more in their 1 week at Disney then we spend as a family during an entire ski season.


Good point. The cost of a Disney vacation should easily cover a whole season of skiing. Do people say Disney is for rich elites? I‘ve been there more than I ever wanted to and the clientele seemed to come from all demographic and income groups.


----------



## Ripitz

x10003q said:


> This times 10. There are families in my neighborhood who go to Disney and stay on site every year during prime vacation time. They constantly bust my stones about skiing. I would bet they spend way more in their 1 week at Disney then we spend as a family during an entire ski season.





Brownski said:


> Good point. The cost of a Disney vacation should easily cover a whole season of skiing. Do people say Disney is for rich elites? I‘ve been there more than I ever wanted to and the clientele seemed to come from all demographic and income groups.


Add electronic gadgets and the services that make them work to that.


----------



## snoloco

Brownski said:


> Detachable lifts


I know you like to scapegoat detachable lifts for a lot of issues with the ski industry. What you really sound like is the equivalent of someone wanting to ignore 20 years of advancement in ski technology and go back to straight skis.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> I would argue that this countries skiing roots had little to do with it being an elitist sport for the wealthy. I think Sun Valley was that sort of place but most other rope toe hills were for regular folk.


That is certainly true for certain regions. Obviously was easier in the northeast or western states that got good natural snow cover. But even in the southeast, the first ski areas started in the 1960s or early 1970s had buses driving a few hours for day trips that were filled with people who weren't in a top income bracket. There were plenty of surface tow lost ski areas in the east from NC thru New England.


----------



## Ripitz

Nothing wrong with straight skis until you try to turn them.


----------



## MarzNC

witch hobble said:


> Vail currently has 5 Colorado ski areas……..8 Pennsylvania Ski areas


Very, very different markets and terrain. A "ski resort" in PA is nothing like one in Colorado. What PA has that CO doesn't is millions of people living in cities who VR hopes are willing to buy plane tickets to ski out west, in addition to doing local skiing.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> _"As a company, we have been focused on acquiring resorts near major metropolitan areas as we know many skiers and riders build their passion for the sport close to home. These great ski areas in Pennsylvania are a perfect complement to our existing resorts, creating a much stronger connection and compelling offering to our current and future guests in *Pittsburgh* as well as those in other critical markets such as *Washington, D.C., Baltimore and Cleveland*."_


One reason VR wanted to get Peak Resorts was that not only did that bring in Mount Snow and Attitash/Wildcat for the Boston market, Peak had bought the 3 Showtime locations (Whitetail, Liberty, Roundtop) that serve the DC/Baltimore region. Peak started in the midwest so Cleveland and Cinncinnati are now "local" for an Epic Pass. my ski buddy who lives in Cleveland who recently semi-retired is skiing more in Ohio than before. Although he uses Ikon for trips out west.

The people who live in Pittsburgh have been skiing 7Springs/Hidden Valley for years. Plus drive to WV for Snowshoe, Canaan Valley, and once again Timberline as of the 2020-21 season.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Now that you mention it, weren’t some of the Von Trapp kids in there?


The Von Trapp Lodge is still a center of XC skiing in Stowe.


----------



## MarzNC

VR started out moving east by buying 3 formerly independent family-owned ski areas/resorts in the midwest. They spent millions on major lift and lodge upgrades.

In 2012, VR bought Afton Alps in MN and Mt. Brighton in MI cost $20 million for both. The initial invested announced was $10M. Afton Alps serves Minn/St. Paul. Mt. Brighton covers Detroit and Ann Arbor (university town). Wilmot was added in 2016, which serves Chicago. The initial reactions of the locals was pretty negative. But by two months into the the first seasons under VR, it was easy to find locals who were quite happy with what they could do with an Epic pass.

However, the evolution of VR operations in PA and the northeast hasn't been the same as in the midwest.


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Good point. The cost of a Disney vacation should easily cover a whole season of skiing. Do people say Disney is for rich elites? I‘ve been there more than I ever wanted to and the clientele seemed to come from all demographic and income groups.


Difference for a Disney vacation for a family who don't ordinarily take an expensive vacation is that it can be a once-in-a lifetime type of experience. Or at least only once as a child when parents are footing the bill. Can't say that about a ski vacation with ski in/out lodging at a destination resort.


----------



## Brownski

snoloco said:


> What you really sound like is the equivalent of someone wanting to ignore 20 years of advancement in ski technology and go back to straight skis.


Guilty. Duh. I think I’ve written like a dozen blog posts about my love of straight skis. The green K2s cost me $20.





snoloco said:


> I know you like to scapegoat detachable lifts for a lot of issues with the ski industry


It’s not scapegoating if it’s true. They make the tickets more expensive and make trails more crowded.


----------



## Brownski

Ripitz said:


> Nothing wrong with straight skis until you try to turn them.


Point em and don’t worry


----------



## MarzNC

Here are my notes about the timing and markets for VR acquisitions since 2010.

2010 - Northstar, CA (Tahoe) 
2010 - Kirkwood, CA (Tahoe)
2012 - Afton Alps, MN (Minn/St. Paul)
2012 - Mt. Brighton, MI (Detroit/Ann Arbor)
2013 - Canyons, UT (50-yr lease)
2014 - Park City (PCMR), combined with Canyons, UT
2014 - Perisher in Australia - largest restort in Australia
2016 - Wilmot, WI (Chicago)
2016 - W-B in Vancouver, Canada
2017 - Stowe, VT (northern)
2018 - Okemo, VT (southern) - Triple Peaks
2018 - Sunapee, NH (Boston) - Triple Peaks
2018 - Crested Butte, CO - Triple Peaks
2019 - Falls Creek in Australia
2019 - Hotham in Australia
2019 - Peak Resorts
17 locations in midwest, mid-Atlantic, northeast (MO, OH, IN; PA; NY, VT, NH)
including
Mt Snow, VT (southern)
Hunter, NY (Catskills)
Wildcat, NH (Boston)
Whitetail/Liberty/Roundtop, PA - former Snowtime (DC/NoVA/Baltimore)


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> Guilty. Duh. I think I’ve written like a dozen blog posts about my love of straight skis. The green K2s cost me $20.
> View attachment 11228
> 
> It’s not scapegoating if it’s true. They make the tickets more expensive and make trails more crowded.


Detachables do not make tickets more expensive. Ski areas, like most businesses, will charge what the market will bear. As for crowding, on a normal weekend day, they generally the same amount of people on the trail when compared to a FGQ.


----------



## witch hobble

MarzNC said:


> Very, very different markets and terrain. A "ski resort" in PA is nothing like one in Colorado. What PA has that CO doesn't is millions of people living in cities who VR hopes are willing to buy plane tickets to ski out west, in addition to doing local skiing.


I get all that. I know that nobody who is a Vail/Breck/Beav regular is headed to get some epic’s worth of PA skiing. I used to raft guide in the vicinity of the new acquisitions and have skied 2 of 3.

It’s just an interesting factoid with numbers. Vail is iconic to Colorado (destination location, expansive bowl skiing, right off the interstate, village full of real estate) for several generations of skiers. They brew Coors other places besides Golden too. Similar association thing though.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Difference for a Disney vacation for a family who don't ordinarily take an expensive vacation is that it can be a once-in-a lifetime type of experience. Or at least only once as a child when parents are footing the bill.


Once is one time too many.
They put an engraved mouse on every bar of the dang soap.
It takes a 1/2 an hour just to get out of Disney to get back to reality and that just puts ya in the traffic backed up on the interstate.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> They constantly bust my stones about skiing.


Seems like nobody's business how you spend your own money. Maybe it's all in fun?



x10003q said:


> Detachables do not make tickets more expensive. Ski areas, like most businesses, will charge what the market will bear. As for crowding, on a normal weekend day, they generally the same amount of people on the trail when compared to a FGQ.



The same amount, or more? Could be either, to some extent it's a choice.

I don't see how investing $XM in a piece of equipment to run the business wouldn't impact the cost of the sport. The biggest differences between now and 1935 are snowmaking, advanced lifts and, for the individual, gear. Maybe insurance too.

The gear is really a choice. You can probably ski on the same pair of skis/boots forever if you want to. But to some extent, if you want to ride lifts, you are going to have to bear the costs of those lifts and snowmaking. You can say that lifts and snowmaking have no impact on the cost of skiing, but to me that's just not credible.

Years ago, I'd heard something about the American auto industry and competitors, that sounded legit, but I never knew if it was true or not. Maybe @Campgottagopee knows. The theory was that one reason American cars were bigger than foreign cars, beyond gas tax, was that the American companies had huge pension liabilities that Japanese companies didn't have. The idea was that with $5000 in pension built into each vehicle that Toyota didn't have to include, the US companies were forced to sell a bigger product that they could bury that extra cost in. If GM built the same Corolla for $5000 more, it would never sell.

IF true, it would be an example of high fixed cost pushing the "manufacturer" to target a luxury market.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I don't see how investing $XM in a piece of equipment to run the business wouldn't impact the cost of the sport. The biggest differences between now and 1935 are snowmaking, advanced lifts and, for the individual, gear. Maybe insurance too.
> 
> The gear is really a choice. You can probably ski on the same pair of skis/boots forever if you want to. But to some extent, if you want to ride lifts, you are going to have to bear the costs of those lifts and snowmaking. You can say that lifts and snowmaking have no impact on the cost of skiing, but to me that's just not credible.


Labor is an increasing cost for all ski areas/resorts. Especially when you include costs associated with helping employees with housing in some fashion. SAM had an article recently that included how much money a few destination resorts are spending on employee housing. Some pretty big investments that started years ago.

Technology and IT infrastructure is harder to gauge. Costs money to implement but the ROI may be relatively good. Certainly was a factor for VR. 2008 wasn't just the start of the Epic pass idea. It was also the start of EpicMix and moving all VR resorts to enhanced RFID cards for lift access and more.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> 2008 wasn't just the start of the Epic pass idea. It was also the start of EpicMix and moving all VR resorts to enhanced RFID cards for lift access and more.


EpicMix sucks. Read recent reviews.








						Positive & Negative Reviews: EpicMix - by The Vail Corporation - #7 App in Ski & Snow Report - Sports Category - 10 Similar Apps & 58,613 Reviews - AppGrooves: Save Money on Android & iPhone Apps
					

Positive & Negative Reviews: EpicMix - 10 Similar Apps & 58,613 Reviews. Experience More with EpicMix.




					appgrooves.com
				



Ya shouldn’t need an app to ski albeit a kludgy one.


----------



## Campgottagopee

snoloco said:


> I know you like to scapegoat detachable lifts for a lot of issues with the ski industry. What you really sound like is the equivalent of someone wanting to ignore 20 years of advancement in ski technology and go back to straight skis.


You should try a pair sometime.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> You should try a pair sometime.


----------



## Johnny V.

So what's next for Vail? Holiday Valley? I could see that happening. We hear every year rumors of Bristol being sold, but the gossip mill is always working overtime there................


----------



## Harvey

Johnny V. said:


> So what's next for Vail? Holiday Valley? I could see that happening. We hear every year rumors of Bristol being sold, but the gossip mill is always working overtime there................



I hear that speculation yesterday. Holiday Valley and Bristol. 

Please no.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> View attachment 11230


Turn and burn, baby!


----------



## Johnny V.

Harvey said:


> I heard that speculation yesterday. Holiday Valley and Bristol.



I could see Holiday Valley much more than Bristol, as it has lots of condos, hotels etc. and it attracts a much greater population base-Buffalo, Toronto, Cleveland etc. Bristol has very little overnight accommodation infrastructure, and while yes, we do get Canadian and other out of state visitors, the customer base is still fairly localized. FWIW, Holiday Valley has gotten in Ski Magazine's top twenty Eastern Resorts quite a few times, while Bristol isn't even a blip.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> View attachment 11230


My poles match the top sheet.
Yup, they’re old.
If I ever get new ones ya can have ‘em and go stylin on those bad boy boards.


----------



## Peter Minde

Ripitz said:


> View attachment 11230



When I was still a newb, I remember a day stopped in Maria's Meadow at Trapp Family Lodge. Two 20-somethings having a heated discussion. Dude on wooden skis is lecturing his friend about how fiberglass skis suck and wood ruled. Then he took off. Three-pin bindings, of course.


----------



## tirolski

Johnny V. said:


> So what's next for Vail? Holiday Valley? I could see that happening. We hear every year rumors of Bristol being sold, but the gossip mill is always working overtime there................


Tog, with $ to both Greek & SkiCNY for indemnification purposes only.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> I hear that speculation yesterday. Holiday Valley and Bristol.
> 
> Please no.


Seriously it would be a tragedy if Vail put their dirty mitts on Bristol or Holiday Valley. At what point does Vail get into antitrust territory?


----------



## MC2

Feels like Vail could generate some goodwill by buying defunct ski areas in depressed towns and sinking their millions into restoring them by beefing up the snowmaking & hiring from the local community.

Signed,
Someone who wants to ski Big Tupper again


----------



## tirolski

MC2 said:


> Feels like Vail could generate some goodwill ...


Vail’s “goodwill" jumped by $1.1 billion in 2017, allegedly
Why? Whistler’s, allegedly.




__





Vail Resorts Goodwill and Intangible Assets 2010-2022 | MTN


Vail Resorts goodwill and intangible assets from 2010 to 2022. Goodwill and intangible assets can be defined as the sum of all intangible asset fields <ul style='margin-top:10px;'> <li>Vail Resorts goodwill and intangible assets for the quarter ending April 30, 2022 were...




www.macrotrends.net






https://investors.vailresorts.com/node/17566/html


----------



## Harvey

MC2 said:


> Feels like Vail could generate some goodwill


Not sure that is in their top 10 goals.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Not sure that is in their top 10 goals.


LOL
Def not!


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Not sure that is in their top 10 goals.


Keeping the books “Up" is definitely most important to them.


----------



## Benny Profane

Well, I guess that VP they put in charge of all eastern and midwest Vail properties is busily trying to find Holiday Valley on Google maps.


----------



## idratherbskiing

Johnny V. said:


> So what's next for Vail? Holiday Valley? I could see that happening. We hear every year rumors of Bristol being sold, but the gossip mill is always working overtime there................


just my opinion, but they are going to go after Jay...which will suck


----------



## Johnny V.

idratherbskiing said:


> just my opinion, but they are going to go after Jay...which will suck


Yup, sure would.


----------



## x10003q

Johnny V. said:


> So what's next for Vail? Holiday Valley? I could see that happening. We hear every year rumors of Bristol being sold, but the gossip mill is always working overtime there................


Holiday Valley is exactly what they want and it is very similar to Seven Springs.


----------



## Johnny V.

x10003q said:


> Holiday Valley is exactly what they want and it is very similar to Seven Springs.



My thoughts exactly.....................


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> Not sure that is in their top 10 goals.


Not in their 100!


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> Holiday Valley is exactly what they want and it is very similar to Seven Springs.


I really hope I can get there before it happens.

Hunter I've accepted. This (HV+B) would take more work.


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> Not in their 100!


Vail is the Genghis Khan of the ski industry. I could see Rob Katz in that beard. 



Harvey said:


> I really hope I can get there before it happens.
> 
> Hunter I've accepted. This (HV+B) would take more work.


Just get to HV this year. If you go during the week you can ski Holimont one day and HV the next. Ellicottville is a really cool town especially if you like nightlife. I liken it to a much smaller version Saratoga.


----------



## Harvey

It's a bit out of my day trip range (5:45) actually the same from our place near gore or in the flats. Not really ready to stay overnight. We'll see. I have a window in January when the women folk are going on a trip. If the snow lines up... maybe.


----------



## raisingarizona

Andy_ROC said:


> Vail is the Genghis Khan of the ski industry. I could see Rob Katz in that beard.
> 
> 
> Just get to HV this year. If you go during the week you can ski Holimont one day and HV the next. Ellicottville is a really cool town especially if you like nightlife. I liken it to a much smaller version Saratoga.



Fkna!


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Seems like nobody's business how you spend your own money. Maybe it's all in fun?
> 
> 
> 
> The same amount, or more? Could be either, to some extent it's a choice.
> 
> I don't see how investing $XM in a piece of equipment to run the business wouldn't impact the cost of the sport. The biggest differences between now and 1935 are snowmaking, advanced lifts and, for the individual, gear. Maybe insurance too.
> 
> The gear is really a choice. You can probably ski on the same pair of skis/boots forever if you want to. But to some extent, if you want to ride lifts, you are going to have to bear the costs of those lifts and snowmaking. You can say that lifts and snowmaking have no impact on the cost of skiing, but to me that's just not credible.
> 
> Years ago, I'd heard something about the American auto industry and competitors, that sounded legit, but I never knew if it was true or not. Maybe @Campgottagopee knows. The theory was that one reason American cars were bigger than foreign cars, beyond gas tax, was that the American companies had huge pension liabilities that Japanese companies didn't have. The idea was that with $5000 in pension built into each vehicle that Toyota didn't have to include, the US companies were forced to sell a bigger product that they could bury that extra cost in. If GM built the same Corolla for $5000 more, it would never sell.
> 
> IF true, it would be an example of high fixed cost pushing the "manufacturer" to target a luxury market.


Capital improvements exist for many businesses. They are done to improve the business - increase sales, marketing, cost reductions, competition, replacing old/worn out equipment, etc. On some level it is built into ticket pricing, but you can only charge a certain amount - what the market will bear. If your snowmaking pumps break, you cannot raise pricing on the spot to accommodate your new cost for the pumps. The other side of the coin is that snowmaking has become cheaper to operate over the last 20 years, but ticket prices have not gone down.

If you need to replace a main double chair and you are choosing between a FGQ or a HSQ, there are many variables based on your market and the max you can charge, your ability to pay back the note and your forecasting of better sales with a HSQ.

Skiing is not a viable business in the East without snowmaking and modern chairlifts. For larger areas, there are very few exceptions to this rule (MRG, Smuggs). Even little Plattekill replaced the T-bar with a double chair. I bet that improvement paid off 10x over and Platty still has a reasonable day ticket price.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> Not sure that is in their top 10 goals.


No but it’s a good idea. Do you think Vail knows how hated they are? Or do they rationalize it? Dismiss it as everyone hates the big guy, jealousy etc?


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> No but it’s a good idea. Do you think Vail knows how hated they are? Or do they rationalize it? Dismiss it as everyone hates the big guy, jealousy etc?


For every person that hates Vail there’s a thousand people buying the epic pass. 

I’ve always felt that if you aren’t pissing someone off you probably aren’t doing your job correctly


----------



## Harvey

My theory: Rob Katz works for the shareholders and is highly incentivized (paid) to make them happy. Selling more Epic passes apparently is what drives the share price up.

Generally if our boss tells us we can make more money by doing X, we'll do it, or at least consider it.

I'm sure Vail has an idea that hardcore skiers aren't fans. But they don't seem to be targeting us, or maybe me. 

Curious about how many here:

• Have a epic pass
• Think it's a great product vs tolerate it because it's the only way to ski their home mountain or whatever
• Think the impact of epic is good for skiing, whatever that means to you

Time for a poll? Help me think of what the choices would be.


----------



## Andy_ROC

raisingarizona said:


> For every person that hates Vail there’s a thousand people buying the epic pass.
> 
> I’ve always felt that if you aren’t pissing someone off you probably aren’t doing your job correctly


Buying an Epic pass and liking VR are two different things. But when they gobble up and monopolize the mountains you call home or want to go to then you really have a limited choice.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> My theory: Rob Katz works for the shareholders and is highly incentivized (paid) to make them happy. Selling more Epic passes apparently is what drives the share price up.
> 
> Generally if our boss tells us we can make more money by doing X, we'll do it, or at least consider it.
> 
> I'm sure Vail has an idea that hardcore skiers aren't fans. But they don't seem to be targeting us, or maybe me.
> 
> Curious about how many here:
> 
> • Have a epic pass
> • Think it's a great product vs tolerate it because it's the only way to ski their home mountain or whatever
> • Think the impact of epic is good for skiing, whatever that means to you
> 
> Time for a poll? Help me think of what the choices would be.



I don't have an epic but did buy a multiday epic when I went to ski 4 days at Breck and Vail. 
If Vail bought Bristol and HV, I guess I'd be forced to strongly consider buying an epic. But it would be tough for me to swallow.
I think the epic is a plus/minus but more minus than good for skiing overall. Yes it's great that you can ski a lot of places with the same pass. But to me the horrible outweighs the good. When you buy an epic then all you want to do is ski epic mountains to maximize your pass value and hence miss out on other great places. Most importantly you hurt the independent mountains. Eventually the giants will force the others out of business and/or buy them at fire sale prices. It only feeds the monopoly being created.


----------



## MC2

Harvey said:


> Time for a poll? Help me think of what the choices would be.


Do you:
1. Have an epic pass & think Vail is a net positive for the resorts they control
2. Have an epic pass & think Vail is a net negative for the resorts they control
3. Do not have an epic pass & think Vail is a net positive for resorts they control
4. Do not have an epic pass and think Vail is a net negative for the resorts they control.

Unfortunately, it’s probably a mix of both and the mix is different at different resorts. People probably like efficiencies (in hiring, payroll, insurance, etc.), but dislike the rules (instructors can’t ski backwards, etc.). Like the capital improvements, dislike the elimination of “soul”.

Also, it probably depends on the place before Vail took over. Lots of people hated the ownership of Seven Springs, for example, so their opinion on Vail is “can’t be worse than it is!”


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Time for a poll? Help me think of what the choices would be.


Do you agree with the phrase "F Vail”?

a) What’s F stand for?
b) Yup
c) Ya shouldn’t use that type of language but Vail sucks.
d) Nope. Love it. Haven't ya seen my latest pics & selfies? It was Epic.

To be fair since this is currently in the F Vail thread YMMV for unbiased results.


----------



## Andy_ROC

MC2 said:


> Do you:
> 1. Have an epic pass & think Vail is a net positive for the resorts they control
> 2. Have an epic pass & think Vail is a net negative for the resorts they control
> 3. Do not have an epic pass & think Vail is a net positive for resorts they control
> 4. Do not have an epic pass and think Vail is a net negative for the resorts they control.
> 
> Unfortunately, it’s probably a mix of both and the mix is different at different resorts. People probably like efficiencies (in hiring, payroll, insurance, etc.), but dislike the rules (instructors can’t ski backwards, etc.). Like the capital improvements, dislike the elimination of “soul”.
> 
> Also, it probably depends on the place before Vail took over. Lots of people hated the ownership of Seven Springs, for example, so their opinion on Vail is “can’t be worse than it is!”


Would love to hear from employees. 

About 5 years ago I talked to a friends son who worked at Park City before and after Vail took over. He worked on the mountain coaching (I think) and also in the ski shops selling skis and clothing etc. He said that before Vail took over he made a lot more money because was paid a really nice commission on the goods sold in the shop. I gathered it was common for some really rich family to come in and he'd sell them $10K of gear and clothing and would get like a 10% commission. Once Vail took over the commission went away and they paid a bit above min wage.


----------



## raisingarizona

tirolski said:


> Do you agree with the phrase "F Vail”?
> 
> a) What’s F stand for?
> b) Yup
> c) Ya shouldn’t use that type of language but Vail sucks.
> d) Nope. Love it. Haven't ya seen my latest pics & selfies? It was Epic.
> 
> To be fair since this is currently in the F Vail thread YMMV for unbiased results.


Hey, I’m from New York and Jersey and I curse like a sailor…..fuhgettabouttit


----------



## raisingarizona

Andy_ROC said:


> Would love to hear from employees.
> 
> About 5 years ago I talked to a friends son who worked at Park City before and after Vail took over. He worked on the mountain coaching (I think) and also in the ski shops selling skis and clothing etc. He said that before Vail took over he made a lot more money because was paid a really nice commission on the goods sold in the shop. I gathered it was common for some really rich family to come in and he'd sell them $10K of gear and clothing and would get like a 10% commission. Once Vail took over the commission went away and they paid a bit above min wage.


I’ve heard stories from previous employees and it’s rarely positive.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Tog, with $ to both Greek & SkiCNY for indemnification purposes only.


I really, really, really hope this doesn't happen. We've had a relationship with both the Kryger's and the Meier's, the thought of losing that truly makes me sad. Hopefully it doesn't happen. Certainly wouldn't blame the Meier's if they sold, cash is king.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> Hey, I’m from New York and Jersey and I curse like a sailor…..fuhgettabouttit


So I take yer answer would be b. Yup.
After all yer the one who started this thread. 
Attaboy ?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Andy_ROC said:


> Would love to hear from employees.


Most of my Vail employee friends have been fired or forced out. The one that sayed are disgruntled.

mm


----------



## MC2




----------



## MarzNC

Thread title from another ski forum: "Who else is concerned about crowding at Epic resorts?" The higher numbers of Epic buyers is scary to folks who post on ski forums. The newbies who didn't have an Epic pass before 2020 do not know what they do not know.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

At least Epic is better than the previous owners of many of the mountains in the portfolio:









With 17-Resort Acquisition, the Northeast Just Got a Lot More Vail-y


Vail says it plans to invest approximately $15 million over the next two years




www.powder.com


----------



## Harvey

Better than the Sacklers.

Vail had a huge jump in sales this year, I think it was 47%. There are now 2.1 million epic passholders.






Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2022 First Quarter and Season Pass Results | Vail Resorts, Inc.


The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.



investors.vailresorts.com


----------



## SayvilleSteve

Harvey said:


> Vail had a huge jump in sales this year, I think it was 47%. There are now 2.1 million epic passholders.



Scary data point, but do we know the dropoff in daily tickets sold compared to last year or five years ago? Are we just trading the time saved from not waiting in the ticket line for time spent waiting for lifts?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Better than the Sacklers.
> 
> Vail had a huge jump in sales this year, I think it was 47%. There are now 2.1 million epic passholders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2022 First Quarter and Season Pass Results | Vail Resorts, Inc.
> 
> 
> The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.
> 
> 
> 
> investors.vailresorts.com


Yup.
Doesn’t take much to be better than the Sackler family, just sayin.
Jay’s fraudsters gave em a run for their money though.
Wonder if Vail will be gobbling up Jay. 
Montreal ain’t far when the boarder's open.


----------



## x10003q

Epic Pass sales are up 47%. Epic does have a big hole around Montreal and Toronto. If Jay does not work, there are boatloads of day areas plus the larger Eastern Townships areas that would allow them to fill in their Canadian map. This is another reason why Hidden Valley in WNY would be a huge purchase.


----------



## professor

Skied Hunter first 7 days they were open (only skied mornings over Thanksgiving).Skied last two days also....seems less crowded than early season last year. Being able to run lifts at full capacity helps ... taking that into account still seems less busy.


----------



## abe

All I heard about Jay is that it is "not the usual suspects" and that a couple people who thought they put in high bids were actually outbid so I took that to mean not Vail but could definitely be wrong - I hope I am anyway


----------



## snoloco

I just hope Jay gets sold soon. It's ridiculous that it's coming up on 6 years in receivership. They need to replace the Bonaventure lift and upgrade snowmaking, but there have been zero capital improvements while in receivership.


----------



## Harvey




----------



## abe

oof do they get double time for Christmas/Christmas Eve/New Years/New Years eve or is it just the $200 bonus


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> A few years ago I had a chance to ski a few places with different ownership styles in one season. We had SKI3 passes so we skied Whiteface, Gore and Belle. We were members at Greylock. We skied Platty and Magic. I took a trip to ski Big Sky and was invited to the Yellowstone Club. I really enjoyed all of my experiences and the variety it offered. The combination of government, small private, corporate and member club run ski areas was really cool to see. I think choices are good. Do I have things to bitch about? Sure. Am I allowed? I would hope so. Whiteface couldn’t get their lifts open. Gore was cold as fuck. Big Sky was crazy expensive. The outhouse at Greylock was super smelly and the Yellowstone Club is mad creepy. Did I have an awesome time? Absolutely!


Article has over 3200 comments in a couple days. It’s in Ontario Canada.
Private ski club runs big surplus, buys new snow-making gear, largely thanks to federal COVID relief


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> View attachment 11257


200 bucks? That’s like three lunches at Vail.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> 200 bucks? That’s like three lunches at Vail.


Yup. 
The nice on mountain restaurant is booked up till Jan 9th. 
Nobody goes there any more cause it’s too crowded.


----------



## tirolski

Fudge Vail.
Merry Christmas y’all.


----------



## trackbiker

Can't wait to see the "Epic" crowds at the Vail resorts with limited terrain this week enhancing the customer experience.
Merry Christmas!


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Year-End Message From Kirsten Lynch


This is "Year-End Message From Kirsten Lynch" by Employee Communications on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.




vimeo.com


----------



## G.ski

NYSkiBlog said:


> Year-End Message From Kirsten Lynch
> 
> 
> This is "Year-End Message From Kirsten Lynch" by Employee Communications on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vimeo.com


She should run for political office.


----------



## Brownski

ugh.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> ugh.











Dozens of skiers rescued from broken ski lift at Deer Valley Resort


Officials said 167 skiers were stranded for several hours before being rescued from a broken ski lift at Deer Valley Resort Friday afternoon. Officials at Deer Valley said that the Carpenter Express chairlift experienced a mechanical failure around 2:38 p. m. Deer Valley's mountain operations...




kutv.com


----------



## tirolski

Meanwhile at Vail Resorts Inc Attitash's shit show.


https://twitter.com/EndicottBill/with_replies


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Meanwhile at Vail Resorts Inc Attitash's shit show.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/EndicottBill/with_replies


I'm so glad the majority of my skiing days are behind me. As I'm getting older I have ZERO tolerance for that crap.


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> Meanwhile at Vail Resorts Inc Attitash's shit show.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/EndicottBill/with_replies


This is awesome. Keep the crowds at Vail and I'll ski elsewhere! 

Can't wait for my trip to Pow Mow and ski top to bottom often with no other humans in sight.


----------



## tirolski

Crotched Mtn opened for the season Sunday the 26th.
Today, the 28th, they closed early @2:30 for "lift maintenance”.
Hard to make this up.
WTF?


----------



## Benny Profane

G.ski said:


> She should run for political office.


Have you seen Don't Look Up? She could easily be a character in the WH in that movie.

I'll bet a hundred bucks that she barely visits any of her "holdings" in the East, especially Wildcat or Hunter. Well, maybe Hunter, it's the shortest ride from NYC.


----------



## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> View attachment 11257




I have a theory that the airlines and, yeah, the Vail mountains are all messed up this holiday week because the employees said, fuck it, I'm taking remaining 2021 sick time and enjoying my Xmas/New Years because nobody else could give a damn. Easy to call in and say, sorry boss, tested positive. That's what happens when stewardesses get their teeth knocked out and ski patrol are laughed at when they ask for better wages and conditions, and then perky blondie above thinks she can make it all better by releasing above video.


----------



## Brownski

She reminds me of so many corporate drones I have been forced to listen to throughout my career. Nothing ever changes


----------



## Benny Profane

Meanwhile, in Washington...









Sign the Petition


Hold Vail Resorts Accountable




www.change.org


----------



## Andy_ROC

NYSkiBlog said:


> Year-End Message From Kirsten Lynch
> 
> 
> This is "Year-End Message From Kirsten Lynch" by Employee Communications on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vimeo.com



I just listened to that pap and threw up in my mouth.


----------



## Tjf1967

New Hampshire around wildcat looks like a good place to settle.


----------



## raisingarizona

Benny Profane said:


> I have a theory that the airlines and, yeah, the Vail mountains are all messed up this holiday week because the employees said, fuck it, I'm taking remaining 2021 sick time and enjoying my Xmas/New Years because nobody else could give a damn. Easy to call in and say, sorry boss, tested positive. That's what happens when stewardesses get their teeth knocked out and ski patrol are laughed at when they ask for better wages and conditions, and then perky blondie above thinks she can make it all better by releasing above video.


This is why I like you Benny.


----------



## raisingarizona

Benny Profane said:


> Have you seen Don't Look Up? She could easily be a character in the WH in that movie.
> 
> I'll bet a hundred bucks that she barely visits any of her "holdings" in the East, especially Wildcat or Hunter. Well, maybe Hunter, it's the shortest ride from NYC.


We just watched that last night. Funny South Park sort of humor until the end, then it all comes together and it’s sad because of how real it all is.


----------



## Benny Profane

raisingarizona said:


> This is why I like you Benny.


Well, this is actually wishful, fingers crossed thinking, because I have a flight west booked for 1/5, when I hope the smoke has cleared.


----------



## jasonwx

Benny Profane said:


> Well, this is actually wishful, fingers crossed thinking, because I have a flight west booked for 1/5, when I hope the smoke has cleared.


i flew yesterday to ewr
flight on time to almost the minute
parking smooth as silk
flying sucked even before covid


----------



## Benny Profane

Well, yeah, word.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> I'll bet a hundred bucks that she barely visits any of her "holdings" in the East, especially Wildcat or Hunter. Well, maybe Hunter, it's the shortest ride from NYC.


I’d wager she doesn’t set foot in NYC if ever she goes to Hunter.
It’s pretty comfy in the corporate office in Broomfield and her company jet could get her to Hunter easily without havin to deal with NYC.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> flying sucked even before covid


fkna


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> I’d wager she doesn’t set foot in NYC if ever she goes to Hunter.
> It’s pretty comfy in the corporate office in Broomfield and her company jet could get her to Hunter easily without havin to deal with NYC.


Where do you think they raise capital? With everyone else?


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Where do you think they raise capital? With everyone else?


So ya actually think ya gotta be present to win?
I’d pay extra to not have to set foot in The NYC.

Have at it if it floats yer boat.


----------



## raisingarizona

tirolski said:


> So ya actually think ya gotta be present to win?
> I’d pay extra to not have to set foot in The NYC.
> 
> Have at it if it floats yer boat.


It’s kind of fun every now and then. 

I loved it as a teenager. We thought we were pretty cool walking around with 40’s, smoking blunts and going to hard core shows. I went to a ton of shows during my last two years out east after I had my driving license. Those are some really good memories.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> It’s kind of fun every now and then.
> ...We thought we were pretty cool walking around with 40’s, smoking blunts and going to hard core shows. I went to a ton of shows during my last two years out east after I had my driving license.


For some reason that doesn’t sound much like a Vail Resorts Inc Board of Directors meeting nor an investors meeting, 
but I could be wrong RA.


----------



## Benny Profane

I think you don't know how this country works.


----------



## raisingarizona

Benny Profane said:


> I think you don't know how this country works.


40’s= champagne 
Blunts= cocaine 
HC Shows= sex workers


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> 40’s= champagne
> Blunts= cocaine
> HC Shows= sex workers


Ya coulda been a contender in The Upstate.








Servotronics CEO resigns after investigation into claims he made employees visit strip clubs


Kenneth D. Trbovich resigned as president and CEO and was removed as board chairman, the company announced Monday.




buffalonews.com


----------



## raisingarizona

tirolski said:


> Ya coulda been a contender in The Upstate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Servotronics CEO resigns after investigation into claims he made employees visit strip clubs
> 
> 
> Kenneth D. Trbovich resigned as president and CEO and was removed as board chairman, the company announced Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> buffalonews.com


That dude liked to party. He would have been a hero in the 80’s.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> That dude liked to party. He would have been a hero in the 80’s.


Made it to the top for a bit. The comments section was interesting.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> I think you don't know how this country works.


I don’t wanna know how those folks “work”. 

You can study it if ya want Benny.
I’d rather play with dogs & nature and chill.


----------



## raisingarizona

tirolski said:


> I don’t wanna know how those folks “work”.
> 
> You can study it if ya want Benny.
> I’d rather play with dogs & nature and chill.


Have you visited the weed thread yet? ?


----------



## Brownski

tirolski said:


> I don’t wanna know how those folks “work”.
> 
> You can study it if ya want Benny.
> I’d rather play with dogs & nature and chill.


How long has it been since you set foot in the 5 boroughs T?


----------



## tirolski

Years ago, early 80s.
Dropped somebody off in Manhattan Christmas Eve once on the way home from Ole Miss.
She let me use her car till back in Oxford.
That was the last time I was there.
It was only a few steps.
Might not count.
Does LaGuardia count?


----------



## Brownski

It counts. That is upstate AF though


----------



## Ripitz

Benny Profane said:


> Meanwhile, in Washington...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sign the Petition
> 
> 
> Hold Vail Resorts Accountable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.change.org


These are not mistakes, they are improvement opportunities.


----------



## jimmypete

Scottski63 said:


> When I left Hunter today at 11:30 they still didn’t have the west open. Biggest line I’ve seen at the north lift. They are managing the mountain so badly.


There was no way they could get the West Side open with the way the weather has been, You need at least a. steady week of cold cold night temps to make enough snow on Clairs or a decent snow storm12 inches or more. They had several trails on the North open which broke things. up a little. It is Christmas Week ,everyone is off, and it's been a ridiculously warm December with many rains, you can't blame Vail for that.


----------



## witch hobble

Vail’s new spokeswoman:

https://instagram.com/altasweettabar


----------



## raisingarizona

Vails stocks my be the highest they’ve ever been but that ship is about to smash an iceberg.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> Vails stocks my be the highest they’ve ever been but that ship is about to smash an iceberg.


Looks like ole man Katz generated some proceeds for himself in the last year and a half.
Hell, he could buy a couple mountains just buy himself with the $ he’s made before the smash-up.
Timing is something.
Bobby Katz insider transactions


----------



## Scottski63

My post was last year.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Good article about the poor operational state of Vail Resorts. 









Epic crowds collide with labor shortages at ski areas


Alex Kaufman thought it would be an amusing website. Something to poke fun at the largest resort operator in North America. So he bought EpicLiftLines.com for $12 last March, just as Vail Resorts anno...




www.durangoherald.com





There is also an Instagram page "epicliftlines" with some pictures and lots of complaints. Unfortunately I can't access because I refuse to have an Instagram or Facebook account.


----------



## witch hobble




----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> There is also an Instagram page "epicliftlines" with some pictures and lots of complaints. Unfortunately I can't access because I refuse to have an Instagram or Facebook account.



Some good work, IMO. 

It was recently abandoned by Alex the guy who started it, and someone else took it over. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## Harvey

Scottski63 said:


> My post was last year.


Welcome back Scott!


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> Some good work, IMO.
> 
> It was recently abandoned by Alex the guy who started it, and someone else took it over. We'll see how it goes.


Maybe you or someone can repost to this thread some interesting stuff from it?


----------



## raisingarizona

So epic. 90 minute lines at Vail and PC this week.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> So epic. 90 minute lines at Vail and PC this week.
> 
> View attachment 11720



Slow Zone is right. I'd go home.

Here's a funny one from EpicLL:









Epic Lift Lines on Instagram: "Welcome concerned mountain people. This profile targets only the C-level executives. Wake up! All other Vail Resorts staffers and community members are to be supported and empathized with. They did not build this unsu


Epic Lift Lines shared a post on Instagram: "Welcome concerned mountain people. This profile targets only the C-level executives. Wake up! All other Vail Resorts staffers and community members are to be supported and empathized with. They did not build this unsustainable stock play nor can...




www.instagram.com


----------



## x10003q

raisingarizona said:


> So epic. 90 minute lines at Vail and PC this week.
> 
> View attachment 11720


That looks like fun.


----------



## Harvey

Is that "normal" though? New snow during Christmas week?


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Is that "normal" though? New snow during Christmas week?


Worse the normal from what I can tell. Limited terrain before the snowstorm probably meant pent up demand by people who were already at a destination resort in Colorado or Utah. Difference is that lines at Epic resort make more headlines than for Snowbird or Jackson Hole or . . .

My Albuquerque ski buddy was invited to join a few friends at Park City during the holiday week. He got an Epic pass that he plans to use at Telluride, Crested Butte and perhaps in Tahoe later in the season. He knew holidays are busier, but hadn't experienced it first hand before. Don't think he'll ever try skiing between Christmas and New Year's again. 

The Canyons gondola line he sent pictures of was on the order of 20-30 40 minutes. That type of wait can happen during the holidays in NC/VA . . . for a base chairlift ride of 5-10 minutes for a run that takes 1-2 minutes for an intermediate. Location matters.

EDIT: Canyons gondola wait was 40 minutes.


----------



## raisingarizona

I bet the lines at places like Monarch, Sunlight or Lost Trail weren’t nearly that bad over the holidays.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Slow Zone is right. I'd go home.


The Slow Zone signs are just there to inform folks coming in hot to slow down so they don’t run into the epicshitshow.


----------



## Benny Profane

It's a crying shame what's happened to Park City in my lifetime.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> I bet the lines at places like Monarch, Sunlight or Lost Trail weren’t nearly that bad over the holidays.


Don't forget Wolf Creek. The past storm cycle dropped almost 90 inches in 9 days. I couldn't stop watching the OpenSnow forecasts after I got home.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Benny Profane said:


> It's a crying shame what's happened to Park City in my lifetime.


We're going to Utah soon and people ask, you doing Park City? I tell them why we won't go nor any Vail Resort. They had no idea how bad it is. Yes it's sad.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> It's a crying shame what's happened to Park City in my lifetime.


Only time I was there was in July of 88 for a weeklong meeting.
The USA women’s ski team was in town for training and was an added bonus.
Caught a nice rainbow in a reservoir and golfed a couple times.
The place was beautiful.


----------



## x10003q

Benny Profane said:


> It's a crying shame what's happened to Park City in my lifetime.


The blame lies with PCMR for failing to renew the $155k (now costs Vail $25 million) land lease in 2011. Hard to blame Vail for that incredibly stupid and arrogant failure.


----------



## MarzNC

Andy_ROC said:


> We're going to Utah soon and people ask, you doing Park City?


My daughter's ski buddy from Alta Lodge when they were tweens is there this week with his family. He said except for the initial wait at Collins first thing in the morning, the lift line waits have been around 10 minutes.

He caught the rope drop for Ballroom today. He took the traverse all the way out and hiked Baldy Shoulder. Sounded like a run of a lifetime.

My guess is that the majority of the people skiing PC this week aren't good enough to ski Ballroom in deep power.


----------



## tirolski

Folks' reviews for Vail Resorts Inc. in google maps aren’t good.
Many were posted before this year’s shitshow.








Epic - Vail Resorts Management Company · 390 Interlocken Crescent #100, Broomfield, CO 80021


★☆☆☆☆ · Corporate campus




www.google.com


----------



## tirolski

_A few lifties got a $25 gift card to one of several grocery stores, most of which were more than an hour’s drive from the resort.
If that wasn’t enough of a perk, all of them got some food, too.
Inside each package was a box of cereal, oatmeal, a few single-serving plastic fruit cups, some potatoes, an onion or two, and a loaf of bread, the employee told The Daily Herald._

No Pepsi? 
Vuck Fail.
_








At Stevens Pass, epic lines, not-so-epic times amid staff shortage | HeraldNet.com


Skiers, snowboarders and employees blame owner Vail Resorts for a “dysfunctional” season. Management cites industry-wide issues.




www.heraldnet.com




_


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> _A few lifties got a $25 gift card to one of several grocery stores, most of which were more than an hour’s drive from the resort.
> If that wasn’t enough of a perk, all of them got some food, too.
> Inside each package was a box of cereal, oatmeal, a few single-serving plastic fruit cups, some potatoes, an onion or two, and a loaf of bread, the employee told The Daily Herald._
> 
> No Pepsi?
> Vuck Fail.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At Stevens Pass, epic lines, not-so-epic times amid staff shortage | HeraldNet.com
> 
> 
> Skiers, snowboarders and employees blame owner Vail Resorts for a “dysfunctional” season. Management cites industry-wide issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldnet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


Meanwhile senior management shows up and eats gourmet meals on Vail property which then is charged to their company credit card as a business expense.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> So epic. 90 minute lines at Vail and PC this week.
> 
> View attachment 11720


More pics, video and comments on the epicshitshow:








New Year's Eve crowds at Park City Mountain - TownLift, Park City News


PARK CITY, Utah — Fresh powder and the New Year’s Eve holiday brought large crowds to Park City Mountain on Friday. View this post on Instagram A post […]




townlift.com


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Only time I was there was in July of 88 for a weeklong meeting.
> The USA women’s ski team was in town for training and was an added bonus.
> Caught a nice rainbow in a reservoir and golfed a couple times.
> The place was beautiful.


My ex and I knew someone who lived in one of the smaller of the Macmansion homes newly built outside of town with a nice view of the mountains. At the time it was worth about 325,000, now, hell, 2-3 million? It was sweet. Visited both winter and summer, and summer convinced me I wanted to live there, with, yeah, a little golf thrown in. Jackson 4 hours north, all the southern Utah coolness four hours south. Was never really a fan of Park City ski hill itself, but, it was OK, and the Canyons didn't even exist yet. Deer valley midweek season tickets were in the 4-500 dollar range, so I'd be skiing there a lot.
It was the least Mormon places in Utah. Still is, I guess, but, good lord, it's destroyed. Sad. Last time I was there I witnessed L.A. girls stumbling around town in stupid high heels Sex in the City style with their asshole boyfriends, and thought, that's it, never again. Also had this incredibly mediocre meal in "the best place in town" we payed 45-50 dollars for entrees in a nothing room with kids running around. I don't get it.

You can do so much better in Europe.


----------



## x10003q

Benny Profane said:


> My ex and I knew someone who lived in one of the smaller of the Macmansion homes newly built outside of town with a nice view of the mountains. At the time it was worth about 325,000, now, hell, 2-3 million? It was sweet. Visited both winter and summer, and summer convinced me I wanted to live there, with, yeah, a little golf thrown in. Jackson 4 hours north, all the southern Utah coolness four hours south. Was never really a fan of Park City ski hill itself, but, it was OK, and *the Canyons didn't even exist yet.* Deer valley midweek season tickets were in the 4-500 dollar range, so I'd be skiing there a lot.
> It was the least Mormon places in Utah. Still is, I guess, but, good lord, it's destroyed. Sad. Last time I was there I witnessed L.A. girls stumbling around town in stupid high heels Sex in the City style with their asshole boyfriends, and thought, that's it, never again. Also had this incredibly mediocre meal in "the best place in town" we payed 45-50 dollars for entrees in a nothing room with kids running around. I don't get it.
> 
> You can do so much better in Europe.


Not sure what you mean by the bolded. Park City West opened in 1968 and was renamed Park West under new ownership in 1975. It became The Canyons in 1997 when it was purchased by ASC.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> My ex and I knew someone who lived in one of the smaller of the Macmansion homes newly built outside of town with a nice view of the mountains...
> It was the least Mormon places in Utah. Still is, I guess, but, good lord, it's destroyed. Sad. Last time I was there I witnessed L.A. girls stumbling around town in stupid high heels Sex in the City style with their asshole boyfriends, and thought, that's it, never again. Also had this incredibly mediocre meal in "the best place in town" we payed 45-50 dollars for entrees in a nothing room with kids running around. I don't get it.
> 
> You can do so much better in Europe.


When I was there they laughed about the place being labeled “sin city” by the other Utes.
They had bars but ya had to be a member of their “social club” to get served. Cost a buck or something.
It was easier to just play golf & ask the cart girl for a cold one.
There was a lot of building McMansions going on in 88.


----------



## Benny Profane

x10003q said:


> Not sure what you mean by the bolded. Park City West opened in 1968 and was renamed Park West under new ownership in 1975. It became The Canyons in 1997 when it was purchased by ASC.


It was bankrupt and closed before Otten took all of the revenue from Killington and built that place. I skied it once when it was ParkWest before that, it sucked, but was cheap for my few hours off the plane. No matter how many zillions anybody can invest in that place, it still has the worst snow of all the SLC and Ogden ski hills. But, some people love it.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Benny Profane said:


> It was the least Mormon places in Utah.


Park City is the only town in Utah that never had an LDS stake. It was a mining town full of Irish catholic immigrants. It went bust with silver prices at the end of the 19th century. I was there with a CYO baseball team in 58 and it was the poorest place I’ve ever seen, and I’ve been to Cuba. 

Skiing has been good to PC. 

mm


----------



## Benny Profane

If only you could go back and buy real estate...


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Benny Profane said:


> If only you could go back and buy real estate...


One of our family stories is the my grandmother was in Aspen the year that the Hotel Jerome was lost in a poker game when the bet was a bottle of whiskey. It doesn’t matter. She still wouldn’t have had the money to buy real estate. 
Her real story is a lot darker. 

mm


----------



## Brownski

Stowe board rejects parking lot proposal for ski area


The proposal put forth by Stowe Mountain Resort was aimed at alleviating traffic, but the review board had concerns about how it would impact the character of the area.



vtdigger.org




not so sure that a traffic jam spewing car exhaust or over-apres’ed drivers sliding into a ditch after dark is any more in harmony with the local character than a new parking lot but hey…


----------



## Andy_ROC

Milo Maltbie said:


> Park City is the only town in Utah that never had an LDS stake. It was a mining town full of Irish catholic immigrants. It went bust with silver prices at the end of the 19th century. I was there with a CYO baseball team in 58 and it was the poorest place I’ve ever seen, and I’ve been to Cuba.
> 
> Skiing has been good to PC.
> 
> mm


It has been. What's not good is the takeover of a town by a megacorporation that wants to Disnefy your town.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> not so sure that a traffic jam spewing car exhaust or over-apres’ed drivers sliding into a ditch after dark is any more in harmony with the local character than a new parking lot but hey…


Disney has huge parking lots. 
Fail’s just trying to follow suit.


----------



## x10003q

Brownski said:


> Stowe board rejects parking lot proposal for ski area
> 
> 
> The proposal put forth by Stowe Mountain Resort was aimed at alleviating traffic, but the review board had concerns about how it would impact the character of the area.
> 
> 
> 
> vtdigger.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not so sure that a traffic jam spewing car exhaust or over-apres’ed drivers sliding into a ditch after dark is any more in harmony with the local character than a new parking lot but hey…


"The project site lies on a 2-acre plot about 5 miles up the Mountain Road from downtown Stowe, and about 2 miles south of the resort."

Classic nimbyism. The lot is going to add only 286 spots, but it is better than the current situation. The hilarity of saying "the parking lot does not keep with the character of the area" shows a real the lack of awareness. I guess the 7 mile conga line of cars extending from the center of Stowe up to the Resort *does* keep with the character of the area.  









Stowe Mountain Resort considers overflow parking lot


The Stowe Mountain Resort wants to alleviate some of its parking issues, especially during the ski season with a new parking lot. But that idea doesn’t sit well with some.




www.wcax.com


----------



## Low Angle Life

Vermont's Act 250 law is NIMBYism written into state law and extremely prohibitive to development of any kind. Surely the big wigs at Fail were well aware of how difficult doing business in that that was before making all of their acquisitions. Many elements of both the Spruce Peak development and Jay Peak development were done on the build first ask for forgiveness second (pay hefty fine) approach. 

The mountain road in Stowe was at capacity and a major issue even before Fails purchasing the resort. There were even failed plans for a multi tier parking garage at one time. It doesn't really help when your mountain is at the end of a dead end road all winter. It's really no different from the traffic going up the canyons in Utah, except your choke point for traffic is your quaint manufactured New England town thats getting backed up all the way down into Waterbury.


----------



## G.ski

Sounds like the locals are telling Vail/Fail how they feel about V/F purchasing and ruining Stowe.


----------



## x10003q

This rejection was from the Development Review Board in Stowe, not Act 250. The Vermont Agency of Transportation signed off on the parking lot. Not doing anything is not a solution.


----------



## Low Angle Life

My point in bringing up 250 was really to set the stage for how antidevelopment Vermonters as a bunch are. VTrans knows there is an issue just as well as local residents do, but more parking really is not a solution in itself when everyone has to filter through downtown Stowe or attempt that horrid left hand turn off Luce Hill onto 108. My solution to this when living in Vermont was avoiding Stowe all together during the wintertime and this was before Fail owned the mountain. The town reached the peak tourist load it could handle in the early 2010's. Short of opening the Notch in the winter to allow travelers in from the north there really is no solution for the traffic issues, something you would realize if you lived with it first hand.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> This rejection was from the Development Review Board in Stowe, not Act 250. The Vermont Agency of Transportation signed off on the parking lot. Not doing anything is not a solution.


I lived in Smuggs, and spent a lot of time in $towe when the first McDonalds was approved to be built on the Mountain Rd. The clamoring, and down right hatred was amazing while witnessing the approval for such a satanic burger joint to be built.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Campgottagopee said:


> I lived in Smuggs,


You ever fuck with the Cupboard Deli down in Jeffersonville? Ain't no need for Ronald McDonald or Stowe when you've got those $4 wraps and Smuggs on the north side of the notch.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> not so sure that a traffic jam spewing car exhaust or over-apres’ed drivers sliding into a ditch after dark is any more in harmony with the local character than a new parking lot but hey…


Ya can take the big yellow taxi, just saying.

_Ya paved paradise put up a parkin_ _lot_...





Here’s Town of $towe Development Review Boards (DRB) decision with discussions by parties involved denying the applicant.
Stowe DRB decision


----------



## Benny Profane

G.ski said:


> Sounds like the locals are telling Vail/Fail how they feel about V/F purchasing and ruining Stowe.


Because they don't ski on Saturday or Sunday morning.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Low Angle Life said:


> You ever fuck with the Cupboard Deli down in Jeffersonville? Ain't no need for Ronald McDonald or Stowe when you've got those $4 wraps and Smuggs on the north side of the notch.


Lol
So true......but that's what makes Smuggs the best on the EC, imo. As you say, with Smuggs itself, and it's access to $towe and the Notch there's nothing better.
Is Juanna's still there?


----------



## Andy_ROC

Low Angle Life said:


> My point in bringing up 250 was really to set the stage for how antidevelopment Vermonters as a bunch are. VTrans knows there is an issue just as well as local residents do, but more parking really is not a solution in itself when everyone has to filter through downtown Stowe or attempt that horrid left hand turn off Luce Hill onto 108. My solution to this when living in Vermont was avoiding Stowe all together during the wintertime and this was before Fail owned the mountain. The town reached the peak tourist load it could handle in the early 2010's. Short of opening the Notch in the winter to allow travelers in from the north there really is no solution for the traffic issues, something you would realize if you lived with it first hand.


Seems Fail failed their due diligence. I don't blame Stowe one bit.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Not sure about Juanna's, I spent a few months mapping and planning the Lamoille River paddlers trail. Thats why I am so familiar with the deli in town, it's right next to the canoe put-in, I ate there quite a bit those couple of months.

Vail didn't fail to do their DD, they knew exactly what they were doing, buying the crown jewel ski resort of Vermont. Stowe as a town and resort have their issues, but it has one asset that no other place in Vermont can claim, the highest peak in the state of Vermont. In a place as ubiquitous to skiing as Vermont, that claim means something, even though Stowe can't claim highest lift access in the state. 

The cost of Stowe before Vails purchase was what kept things in control in terms of traffic and crowding on and off hill and even then, right before the purchase it was beginning to get out of hand. The terrain above tree line and side country access that can be had via the gondola also wasn't a secret to locals, thats why they could justify ponying up the extra cash for a season pass, once Epic came around that privilege was accessible to the masses.


----------



## x10003q

Low Angle Life said:


> My point in bringing up 250 was really to set the stage for how antidevelopment Vermonters as a bunch are. VTrans knows there is an issue just as well as local residents do, but more parking really is not a solution in itself when everyone has to filter through downtown Stowe or attempt that horrid left hand turn off Luce Hill onto 108. My solution to this when living in Vermont was avoiding Stowe all together during the wintertime and this was before Fail owned the mountain. The town reached the peak tourist load it could handle in the early 2010's. Short of opening the Notch in the winter to allow travelers in from the north there really is no solution for the traffic issues, something you would realize if you lived with it first hand.


Your solution of avoiding Stowe is fine for you - but it is not a solution. Adding those spots will take some of the traffic off the road. By the way, Act 250 has been around since 1970.


----------



## Low Angle Life

I am well aware of how long Act 250 has been around and its origins. Can you please explain to me how adding a single parking lot across the street from Stowe's XC ski area, 5 miles up the mountain road, that literally requires driving through all of town to get to would do anything to ease traffic?


----------



## Low Angle Life

x10003q said:


> Adding those spots will take some of the traffic off the road.


How will this take traffic off 108?


----------



## x10003q

Low Angle Life said:


> How will this take traffic off 108?
> View attachment 11753


I didn't realize Mountain Rd (108) ended at the parking lot.


----------



## Low Angle Life

It only ends at the parking lot in the wintertime 108 is the Notch road, which is closed November-April most years. That was why this was a meaningless gesture on Vails behalf. Easing traffic in Stowe is not possible without a scale of infrastructure development that would never pass due to 250. Prior to Vails purchase of the resort during the Spruce Peak development a multi-tier parking garage was proposed on the Mansfield side of the mountain road. Act 250 was the primary driver behind keeping this project from happening. That and the fact that local residents did not want to increase the parking capacity of the mountain because of the added traffic load through town.


----------



## x10003q

Low Angle Life said:


> It only ends at the parking lot in the wintertime 108 is the Notch road, which is closed November-April most years. That was why this was a meaningless gesture on Vails behalf. Easing traffic in Stowe is not possible without a scale of infrastructure development that would never pass due to 250. Prior to Vails purchase of the resort during the Spruce Peak development a multi-tier parking garage was proposed on the Mansfield side of the mountain road. Act 250 was the primary driver behind keeping this project from happening. That and the fact that local residents did not want to increase the parking capacity of the mountain because of the added traffic load through town.


I wish there was a sarcasm emoji.

I know were the road ends. Taking almost 300 cars off 108 between the proposed lot and the Stowe base alleviates some of the traffic north of the proposed lot. It is still better than nothing. If you think this traffic issue will self cure because of the crowding you are mistaken. Vail is responsible for some of this mess with the cheap passes, but they did not build the Spruce base area. Act 250 is also responsible for the mess as they did not add enough parking. There was not enough weekend parking at Stowe when I first visited in the early 1980s and the line of traffic from the town to the resort existed back then.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Thats kinda the point, Stowe has a traffic problem, adding parking adds cars which in turn adds traffic. If you want to alleviate traffic there are a few solutions, improving and supplementing the existing roads and infrastructure and increased public transit options are two. However roadways are not being improved, there are not additional bypasses, and the town and state all coordinate to offer various forms of public transit already. There are too many people for the area to support without further development. Thats common theme here with Vail, *exploitative tourism* that doesn't take into account the impact on local communities. You can build up and increase capacity, but at the end of the day these resorts mostly exists in rural places surrounded by protected land, often at the end of dead end seasonal roads. These places have strained infrastructure and were never intended to support crowds the way amusement parks are. The OG Vail resort is the ideal amusement park location one giant parking lot right off the interstate, many of these other mountain towns not so much.


----------



## tirolski

Low Angle Life said:


> The OG Vail resort is the ideal amusement park location one giant parking lot right off the interstate, many of these other mountain towns not so much.


Copper Mountain along I-70 uses their parking lot as a driving range for their golf course. 
We got some good roll outs when we tagged em but YMMV. 
They’re both contributors to the winter I-70 shitshows.

Alterra’s iconic Crystal Mtn. had their natives riled up recently when they tried to limit skiers lift access by implementing a reservation system for season pass holders. (They’ve gotten lots of snow lately.)
Recently just changed it to a reservation system for parking.
https://www.crystalmountainresort.com/media/news/the-way-forward

TGR’s Maggots' comments:




__





Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra - Page 39


Didn't see this posted anywhere yet: https://www.alterramtnco.com/news/2018/09/06/crystal-mountain-acquisition



www.tetongravity.com


----------



## jasonwx

simple solution to complex problem.. get your ass up early..
I'm usually sitting in a lodge at 7 or 7:30 eating or just drinking coffee...
i like to get to a place early enough to park next to the person who opens...


----------



## raisingarizona

jasonwx said:


> simple solution to complex problem.. get your ass up early..
> I'm usually sitting in a lodge at 7 or 7:30 eating or just drinking coffee...
> i like to get to a place early enough to park next to the person who opens...


I have to do this here when it’s busy. It’s ok and it works but there are days I’d really like to sleep in a little bit.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> I have to do this here when it’s busy. It’s ok and it works but there are days I’d really like to sleep in a little bit.


Plus, it's a solution for you (and me), but Stowe needs something scalable to solve their problem.


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> Plus, it's a solution for you (and me), but Stowe needs something scalable to solve their problem.


I bet I’m more of the problem in the eyes of ski area management. I take up space and rarely if ever spend any money in the lodge.

A family of four or five can park in that same spot and spend more money in a day than I invest for the whole season.


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> Copper Mountain along I-70 uses their parking lot as a driving range for their golf course.
> We got some good roll outs when we tagged em but YMMV.
> They’re both contributors to the winter I-70 shitshows.
> 
> Alterra’s iconic Crystal Mtn. had their natives riled up recently when they tried to limit skiers lift access by implementing a reservation system for season pass holders. (They’ve gotten lots of snow lately.)
> Recently just changed it to a reservation system for parking.
> https://www.crystalmountainresort.com/media/news/the-way-forward
> 
> TGR’s Maggots' comments:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra - Page 39
> 
> 
> Didn't see this posted anywhere yet: https://www.alterramtnco.com/news/2018/09/06/crystal-mountain-acquisition
> 
> 
> 
> www.tetongravity.com


Crystal is a mess. Covid has made it worse.
While Alterra, like Vail, gets some of the blame due to the passes, there have been plans to expand the parking since the early 2000s. It has never happened. Crystal is also subject to the population explosion in the Seattle metro area which has multiplied the demand for skiing at these Washington areas. The other factor that is never really discussed is the US Forest Service and the unreasonable limits they tend to put on ski areas. 

Here is the 2004 Crystal Mountain Master Development Plan. You can see where the planned parking lots were to be built and why the lots were never built as the requirements are prohibitive. I bet they wish they had those lots now.
file:///C:/Users/27BB/AppData/Local/Temp/1392057371.pdf


----------



## x10003q

raisingarizona said:


> I bet I’m more of the problem in the eyes of ski area management. I take up space and rarely if ever spend any money in the lodge.
> 
> A family of four or five can park in that same spot and spend more money in a day than I invest for the whole season.


Plus, you are kind of a "bad apple".


----------



## Low Angle Life

jasonwx said:


> simple solution to complex problem.. get your ass up early..
> I'm usually sitting in a lodge at 7 or 7:30 eating or just drinking coffee...
> i like to get to a place early enough to park next to the person who opens...


Coffee and bowel movements slow me down in the morning and I gotta make the stop when nature calls...


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Plus, it's a solution for you (and me), but Stowe needs something scalable to solve their problem.


Last time there we stayed at the Green Mountain Inn and rode the shuttle. It worked great.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> I bet I’m more of the problem in the eyes of ski area management.


This is true in general of the hardcore.


----------



## jasonwx

Low Angle Life said:


> Coffee and bowel movements slow me down in the morning and I gotta make the stop when nature calls...


hence the need to arrive early and have your coffee in the lodge
at that hour your are almost guaranteed to get a fresh and quite bathroom


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

Harvey said:


> This is true in general of the hardcore.


I'd like to think I'm one of the "hardcore" but I do make it a point to spend money on the mountain. I like to eat lunch, and I'm not a machine like Kleetus who skis straight through the day on a single granola bar.

Plus the food at the Tannery isn't bad!


----------



## Harvey

jasonwx said:


> at that hour


I skied all day at Gore a few weeks ago, arrived at 7:30, left at 4:30, booted in the lodge was alone both times.

That was on a day with new snow too.


----------



## Harvey

TheGreatAbyss said:


> I'd like to think I'm one of the "hardcore" but I do make it a point to spend money on the mountain. I like to eat lunch, and I'm not a machine like Kleetus who skis straight through the day on a single granola bar.
> 
> Plus the food at the Tannery isn't bad!


Hence the "in general."

If I am skiing with my daughter at Gore, I often miss breakfast, and will buy something mid morning.

Small mountains or Plattekill, I always try to spend something.


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

Harvey said:


> Small mountains or Plattekill, I always try to spend something.


I plan on spending money there too once they get their steeper terrain open and I can finally put this season pass to use.

I did have breakfast there last year and I remember it being pretty good, and quite picturesque by the woodstove in that lodge.


----------



## raisingarizona

TheGreatAbyss said:


> I'd like to think I'm one of the "hardcore" but I do make it a point to spend money on the mountain. I like to eat lunch, and I'm not a machine like Kleetus who skis straight through the day on a single granola bar.
> 
> Plus the food at the Tannery isn't bad!


We were unprepared and became really hungry skiing on Christmas Day so I decided to go ahead and order some Mac n cheese bowls from the lodge. Cody and I each had one and we shared a Pepsi. With a small tip the bill was over 40 dollars. That will be my only purchase for the season. The food wasn’t worth it. It annoyed the crap out of me.


----------



## raisingarizona

Low Angle Life said:


> Coffee and bowel movements slow me down in the morning and I gotta make the stop when nature calls...


These have been a game changer for me. I couldn’t have made it through that photo work the other morning without them. Seriously, they can buy you an extra 45 to 60 minutes as long as you don’t mind the slop. I’ve found that some good, wool leggings help keep the warmth in and movement free.

I’ll even wear them at home so I can stay on the couch and not break up my favorite tv programs. The girls don’t appreciate it so much but it’s worth it imho!


----------



## Tjf1967

raisingarizona said:


> We were unprepared and became really hungry skiing on Christmas Day so I decided to go ahead and order some Mac n cheese bowls from the lodge. Cody and I each had one and we shared a Pepsi. With a small tip the bill was over 40 dollars. That will be my only purchase for the season. The food wasn’t worth it. It annoyed the crap out of me.


That number seems really high to me. Wow. I usually stick with once slice of pizza and water from the tap.


----------



## raisingarizona

Tjf1967 said:


> That number seems really high to me. Wow. I usually stick with once slice of pizza and water from the tap.


The Mac and cheese was like the white Mac, ready to heat that you can buy at most shopping centers or a Walmart. It was so creamy it was gross.


----------



## Campgottagopee

I just head to the bar
Porkchop in every can


----------



## tirolski

Low Angle Life said:


> It only ends at the parking lot in the wintertime 108 is the Notch road, which is closed November-April most years. That was why this was a meaningless gesture on Vails behalf. Easing traffic in Stowe is not possible without a scale of infrastructure development that would never pass due to 250.


Put in a Notch Tunnel and the trees would never know it was there. No ice or snow in the tunnel. 
Name it after Bernie. 
Shovels ready.
Elon's a digger too.


----------



## Harvey

Crotched Mountain ski area cuts back operations as other Vail resorts in N.H. have problems


After getting a late start to the ski season, Crotched Mountain resort has angered some season pass holders by cutting back its operating schedule to five days a week and dropping its Midnight Madness hours, just as other New Hampshire areas owned by...




www.ledgertranscript.com


----------



## MarzNC

jasonwx said:


> hence the need to arrive early and have your coffee in the lodge
> at that hour your are almost guaranteed to get a fresh and quite bathroom


Just discovered that Alta is not allowing any parking before 8am on weekends. Alta opted to deal with their parking issues by testing out a parking reservation system for 2021-22. Non-pass holders have to pay. Only required for 8am-1pm on weekends and holidays. At the same time Snowbird dropped the requirement to make a free parking reservation for every lot.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Crotched Mountain ski area cuts back operations as other Vail resorts in N.H. have problems
> 
> 
> After getting a late start to the ski season, Crotched Mountain resort has angered some season pass holders by cutting back its operating schedule to five days a week and dropping its Midnight Madness hours, just as other New Hampshire areas owned by...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ledgertranscript.com


VR also cut the night hours at Whitetail, Liberty, and Roundtop, the former Showtime ski resorts that were sold to Peak Resorts when Irv Naylor decided to get out of the business.

Which Epic resorts in the west have night skiing? The midwest ski areas have a lot of people at night. Wonder if most are pass holders. Although night tickets are cheap and I've seen plenty of people buying them in the southeast.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Just discovered that Alta is not allowing any parking before 8am on weekends. Alta opted to deal with their parking issues by testing out a parking reservation system for 2021-22. Non-pass holders have to pay. Only required for 8am-1pm on weekends and holidays.


The weekend early skinners who drive there were hurt by that.


----------



## tirolski

Stevens Pass had to evacuate lifts on the 5th and not open today 
Another lift had "COVID exclusions" and didn’t run.
The road up is closed now so the shitshow has stopped for a bit.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478762513994969089


----------



## Sbob

jasonwx said:


> hence the need to arrive early and have your coffee in the lodge
> at that hour your are almost guaranteed to get a fresh and quite bathroom


Should be in a separate thread 
TMI ?


----------



## Brownski

Sbob said:


> Should be in a separate thread
> TMI ?


I’m in. Let’s call it “shit piss puke reports”


----------



## Sbob

Brownski said:


> I’m in. Let’s call it “shit piss puke reports”


I have a high school Mount St Anne trip that covers all three LOL?


----------



## Brownski

Sbob said:


> I have a high school Mount St Anne trip that covers all three LOL?


I’ll bet you’re not the only one


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Stevens Pass had to evacuate lifts on the 5th and not open today
> Another lift had "COVID exclusions" and didn’t run.
> The road up is closed now so the shitshow has stopped for a bit.


Somebody made an artful cartoon to describe Stevens' shitshow situation.




__





Stevens Pass skiers snowed – The Seattle Times






www.seattletimes.com


----------



## witch hobble

Maybe it’s because I only started paying attention to the Northeast Skiology page this year, but it seems like a page for fiddling as Rome burns……or posting pics and stories of the ski industry circling the drain.

It’s like non-stop “this storm is going to miss you”, “look at what Vail did now”, “look at these lift lines!”, “watch this ski area’s deferred maintenance and/or poor management put people in the hospital!”


----------



## Adirondack Johnny

witch hobble said:


> Maybe it’s because I only started paying attention to the Northeast Skiology page this year, but it seems like a page for fiddling as Rome burns……or posting pics and stories of the ski industry circling the drain.
> 
> It’s like non-stop “this storm is going to miss you”, “look at what Vail did now”, “look at these lift lines!”, “watch this ski area’s deferred maintenance and/or poor management put people in the hospital!”


Like this?


----------



## witch hobble

Adirondack Johnny said:


> Like this?


Exactly like that.


----------



## raisingarizona

Social media for the skiing Karen.


----------



## tirolski

Wildcat had a chair fall off yesterday. Dude went to hospital. Fuck Vail.








Chair Detaches from Wildcat Lift


Photo credit: Mic Murphy A triple chair fell near the base of Wildcat Mountain’s Snowcat lift this afternoon, sending one person to the hospital. The lift involved is a 1974 Riblet servicing …




liftblog.com


----------



## TonyC

Harvey said:


> It's a fact that skiing used to be a middle class sport. What changed? Sincere question.


Looking at the US as a whole, skiing has never been a middle class sport IMHO. Yes skiing was even more an elitist sport in its formative years, which surely means at least through the 1950's. Which brings to mind the question, "When if ever was skiing not an elitist sport in the US?"

I suspected the answer based upon the data set of Mammoth skier visits, which more than tripled between two excellent (for apples-to-apples comparison) seasons in 1968-69 and 1977-78. FYI Mammoth's skier visits 2015-16 to 2018-19 averaged about the same as in 1977-78.

A cursory Google search led here.



> There was approximately a 40 percent increase in participation in skiing in 1979 over 1976, on top of an approximately 40 percent increase between 1973 and 1976. This has brought current participation in this sport of snow skiing to a level of 6.8 percent among individuals, which projects to approximately 14.6 million skiers.


That report is an interesting read, and reminds me of one of the ski guidebooks I bought in 1979.



> Collectively as many as 27.1 million people could be skiing in the future.


Rapid growth of western ski terrain slowed in the 1970's, so authors like these predicted overcrowding and capacity limits. The Kottke Report has tracked US skier visits since 1978-79, when it was 50.2 million. Last year was 59.1 million and the record in 2007-08 and 2010-11 was 60.5 million. To no surprise with the advent of high speed lifts, I can tell you that the worst lift lines I've experienced by far were those in the late 1970's.

But what really happened since 1980? The current active skier/snowboarder population is estimated at 9-10 million, 3-4% of the US population. So the percentage of the US population that skis has fallen back to about what it was in 1973. The "popular era of skiing" with consistent growth looks to me to be maybe late 1960's to mid-1980's. US skier visits were flat from the mid-1980's to late 1990's.

All of this tells me that I'm a typical US skier in some ways. My first time was in 1976, right in the middle of that explosive boom period, and age 23 is in a common starting age range too. The people in my age cohort who started as kids were mostly an elite group.

That reference also mentioned that in the 1970's 44% of skier visits were in the Northeast (now it's under 25%). What that tells me is that skiing was much more a local daytrip/weekend sport then. I know that was true when I started out because the financial commitment as a beginner to try skiing back then was quite modest if you weren't traveling and paying for hotels and restaurants. In those late 1970's seasons the proportion of my skiing that was local SoCal daytrip was 48% and the rest was at Mammoth aside from a couple of days at Tahoe. By contrast the SoCal proportion of my skiing from 2011-2019 was 3%.

For you Northeasterners daytrip skiing in the 1970's was even easier than for me because you didn't have to improvise clothing for which you had no need in daily living. In conclusion, skiing was a middle class sport for a small window of time when the baby boomers were in the 16-29 age bracket and even then only in locations within easy daytrip distance of ski areas. I realize these locations apply to 90+% of active members of this forum but not so much to the majority of the US population today. 

The convenience factor also plays a supporting role upon skiing being much more of a middle class sport in the Alps. There would be more resistance to the Vail-type model in Europe IMHO.


----------



## raisingarizona

tirolski said:


> Wildcat had a chair fall off yesterday. Dude went to hospital. Fuck Vail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chair Detaches from Wildcat Lift
> 
> 
> Photo credit: Mic Murphy A triple chair fell near the base of Wildcat Mountain’s Snowcat lift this afternoon, sending one person to the hospital. The lift involved is a 1974 Riblet servicing …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> liftblog.com


When your ship is short staffed and underpaid people tend to get fatigued, burnt out and angry. It’s a crap environment and a lot more prone to mistakes and accidents.


----------



## Brownski

raisingarizona said:


> When your ship is short staffed and underpaid people tend to get fatigued, burnt out and angry. It’s a crap environment and a lot more prone to mistakes and accidents.


That’s true but does it apply here? Do we have some reason to think it was operator error?


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Brownski said:


> Do we have some reason to think it was operator error?


No, but Vail should've replaced that 48-year-old chair!


----------



## tirolski

Either way it’s a still Fail's shitshow.


----------



## Brownski

Well if every Riblet still in use has to be replaced, that's gonna hurt mom- and- pops than it does Vail. It may have to happen anyway. They're getting old. Who knows? 
Fuck Vail


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> That’s true but does it apply here? Do we have some reason to think it was operator error?


I don’t. It was just my first thought.

But yeah, F Vail!


----------



## Brownski

raisingarizona said:


> But yeah, F Vail!


I think this should be our version of change for a nickel. If you think you see me in a lift line, just tap me on the shoulder and say "fuck vail"


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Wildcat had a chair fall off yesterday. Dude went to hospital. Fuck Vail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chair Detaches from Wildcat Lift
> 
> 
> Photo credit: Mic Murphy A triple chair fell near the base of Wildcat Mountain’s Snowcat lift this afternoon, sending one person to the hospital. The lift involved is a 1974 Riblet servicing …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> liftblog.com


Holy crap.


----------



## Benny Profane

Brownski said:


> I think this should be our version of change for a nickel. If you think you see me in a lift line, just tap me on the shoulder and say "fuck vail"


I like it.


----------



## MarzNC

jamesdeluxe said:


> No, but Vail should've replaced that 48-year-old chair!


What about Peak Resorts? They bought Attitash and Wildcat a while before VR thought about buying Peak as a way to gain more locations for the NYC and New England market. Read plenty of complaints about Peak on northeast ski forums related to Attitash and Wildcat.


----------



## Benny Profane

Lawyer in me says don't matter. It's like when you walk away from a house closing "as is" after the inspectors sign off. Now it's your problem.


----------



## Harvey

TonyC said:


> Looking at the US as a whole, skiing has never been a middle class sport IMHO. Yes skiing was even more an elitist sport in its formative years, which surely means at least through the 1950's. Which brings to mind the question, "When if ever was skiing not an elitist sport in the US?"
> 
> I suspected the answer based upon the data set of Mammoth skier visits, which more than tripled between two excellent (for apples-to-apples comparison) seasons in 1968-69 and 1977-78. FYI Mammoth's skier visits 2015-16 to 2018-19 averaged about the same as in 1977-78.
> 
> A cursory Google search led here.
> 
> 
> That report is an interesting read, and reminds me of one of the ski guidebooks I bought in 1979.
> 
> 
> Rapid growth of western ski terrain slowed in the 1970's, so authors like these predicted overcrowding and capacity limits. The Kottke Report has tracked US skier visits since 1978-79, when it was 50.2 million. Last year was 59.1 million and the record in 2007-08 and 2010-11 was 60.5 million. To no surprise with the advent of high speed lifts, I can tell you that the worst lift lines I've experienced by far were those in the late 1970's.
> 
> But what really happened since 1980? The current active skier/snowboarder population is estimated at 9-10 million, 3-4% of the US population. So the percentage of the US population that skis has fallen back to about what it was in 1973. The "popular era of skiing" with consistent growth looks to me to be maybe late 1960's to mid-1980's. US skier visits were flat from the mid-1980's to late 1990's.
> 
> All of this tells me that I'm a typical US skier in some ways. My first time was in 1976, right in the middle of that explosive boom period, and age 23 is in a common starting age range too. The people in my age cohort who started as kids were mostly an elite group.
> 
> That reference also mentioned that in the 1970's 44% of skier visits were in the Northeast (now it's under 25%). What that tells me is that skiing was much more a local daytrip/weekend sport then. I know that was true when I started out because the financial commitment as a beginner to try skiing back then was quite modest if you weren't traveling and paying for hotels and restaurants. In those late 1970's seasons the proportion of my skiing that was local SoCal daytrip was 48% and the rest was at Mammoth aside from a couple of days at Tahoe. By contrast the SoCal proportion of my skiing from 2011-2019 was 3%.
> 
> For you Northeasterners daytrip skiing in the 1970's was even easier than for me because you didn't have to improvise clothing for which you had no need in daily living. In conclusion, skiing was a middle class sport for a small window of time when the baby boomers were in the 16-29 age bracket and even then only in locations within easy daytrip distance of ski areas. I realize these locations apply to 90+% of active members of this forum but not so much to the majority of the US population today.
> 
> The convenience factor also plays a supporting role upon skiing being much more of a middle class sport in the Alps. There would be more resistance to the Vail-type model in Europe IMHO.


A lot to unpack there. Much of it makes sense to me.

I believe that back when skiing was more local, the average income of skiers was more... average.


----------



## not2brite

I agree with Harvey on this one. I grew up 30 minutes from Hunter. Pretty standard middle class town. IBM was the biggest employer in the area. Wealthiest people were mostly local business owners. No one was really what you would consider rich, but no one really had to struggle either. Used gear, hand me downs, and cheap tickets. Cost just wasn't really an issue. Getting a ride before you were old enough to drive was probably the biggest obstacle.


----------



## tirolski

not2brite said:


> I agree with Harvey on this one. I grew up 30 minutes from Hunter. Pretty standard middle class town. IBM was the biggest employer in the area. Wealthiest people were mostly local business owners. No one was really what you would consider rich, but no one really had to struggle either. Used gear, hand me downs, and cheap tickets. Cost just wasn't really an issue. Getting a ride before you were old enough to drive was probably the biggest obstacle.


You n Harvey are going a bit off topic. But I agree with ya. 
Fuck Vail.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> That’s true but does it apply here? Do we have some reason to think it was operator error?


_State Fire Marshal Sean Toomey said that the incident happened around noon Saturday on the Snowcat triple chair."It started as a misload of a chair, and the chair began to swing," Toomey said. "It hit the tower right as it started to head up the mountain, and it detached from the cable.”... Toomey said the lift will remain closed while they conduct a full investigation of the incident. The lift will then need to be tested and approved by the chief tramway inspector._ _The investigation should take about a week._








Man seriously injured after falling from Wildcat ski lift chair


Lift will remain closed pending investigation.




www.wmur.com


----------



## abe

Ancient lifts are not inherently unsafe if maintained and accidents happen on both old and new lifts. Lots of lifts around far older than the one in question at Wildcat


----------



## TonyC

Harvey said:


> I believe that back when skiing was more local, the average income of skiers was more... average.


This is the point Harvey and I agree upon. Relative to income, is skiing more expensive now than in the 1970's? That depends upon what aspect of skiing. Some aspects are definitely cheaper: season passes, air travel, clothing. Used gear is surely easier to come by now online. I pulled an edge out of my second line Bonafides Dec. 31 and bought a comparable pair off Craigslist 3 days later. For avid skiers that put in a lot of days per season, my guess is that skiing is less expensive overall than 40 years ago.

The problem is that the aspects of skiing that are more expensive are barriers to new entrants: day tickets, lessons, day care for kids below ski age.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I believe that back when skiing was more local, the average income of skiers was more... average.


If I didn't grow up next to a ski hill I never would've skied. I'd guess location is the biggest hurdle when it comes to the sport. You don't need fancy anything to do it. 
And yeah, F Vail.


----------



## tirolski

TonyC said:


> For avid skiers that put in a lot of days per season, my guess is that skiing is less expensive overall than 40 years ago.
> 
> The problem is that the aspects of skiing that are more expensive are barriers to new entrants: day tickets, lessons, day care for kids below ski age.


Get food&bev at a Fail resort & it can be more than their bait ya to come epicpass price that only drops ya into the epic-failshow.


----------



## Harvey

All IMO:

This is not off topic at all. It goes directly at the issue with Vail's model. They are capitalizing on a long established love for skiing, while doing little to bring in more skiers.

Going back to the poll, it's not inherently evil, it's just bad for the sport.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> It goes directly at the issue with Vail's model. They are capitalizing on a long established love for skiing, while doing little to bring in more skiers.
> ... it's not inherently evil, it's just bad for the sport.


What’s not evil about it then, in your soulful opinion?


----------



## not2brite

Their whole approach seems more than a little contradictory. Cheap season passes are great for people already in the sport. At the same time, their ridiculous individual day rates are absolutely destroying the incentive for anyone new that might want to give it a try. Throw in what seems to be an increasingly unpleasant on mountain experience and suddenly those cheap passes lose their value.


----------



## Face4Me

Harvey said:


> It goes directly at the issue with Vail's model. They are capitalizing on a long established love for skiing, while doing little to bring in more skiers.
> 
> Going back to the poll, it's not inherently evil, it's just bad for the sport.





not2brite said:


> Their whole approach seems more than a little contradictory. Cheap season passes are great for people already in the sport. At the same time, their ridiculous individual day rates are absolutely destroying the incentive for anyone new that might want to give it a try. Throw in what seems to be an increasingly unpleasant on mountain experience and suddenly those cheap passes lose their value.


Two of the best posts ever!


----------



## tirolski

not2brite said:


> Their whole approach seems more than a little contradictory. Cheap season passes are great for people already in the sport. At the same time, their ridiculous individual day rates are absolutely destroying the incentive for anyone new that might want to give it a try. Throw in what seems to be an increasingly unpleasant on mountain experience and suddenly those cheap passes lose their value.


Not if ya just wanna make some quick cash so ya can keep on gobbling places up and feeding the pig.


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> Not if ya just wanna make some quick cash so ya can keep on gobbling places up and feeding the pig.


Quarterly results are the most important element for Vail.


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> What’s not evil about it then, in your soulful opinion?


Ugh.

OK look from my point of view it is evil, but my point of view is clearly not objective. 

That's as far as I can go without causing trouble.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> OK look from my point of view it is evil, but my point of view is clearly not objective.
> 
> That's as far as I can go without causing trouble.


Attaboy ?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> All IMO:
> They are capitalizing on a long established love for skiing, while doing little to bring in more skiers.


It's worse than that. Vail is actively discouraging new skiers. Around here, ski clubs and school or shop organized bus trips were the easiest and cheapest way for adults and older kids to get into the sport. Vail has kicked those groups to the curb, and the large number of Ikon and Epic passes among current skiers makes it difficult to get enough people together to qualify for group discounts anywhere else. 
It's clear that Vail's strategy is to treat skiing as a cash cow and not a sustainable business. When the cheap pass model fails because the experience deteriorates too much, expect Vail to pivot to continuous price increases for everything.

mm


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> discouraging new skiers


Agree, you were more direct.


----------



## tirolski

Seems like folks around Truckee ain’t too pleased with Vail's “product”.








NorthStar California Sucks | VailEpicFail


Check it out before booking a trip to Northstar California Ski Resort. Vail Epic Fail.




northstarsucks.com


----------



## Brownski

Jeezus 
When I was out there, North Star was supposed to be the posh family oriented easier terrain spot in North Tahoe. If the hotels are trash now, what have they got?


----------



## Campgottagopee

We can blame Vail all we want but as long as people keep buying passes, waiting in stupid long ass lines, and putting up with corporate BS nothing will ever change. We really can only blame "ourselves".


----------



## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> We can blame Vail all we want but as long as people keep buying passes, waiting in stupid long ass lines, and putting up with corporate BS nothing will ever change. We really can only blame "ourselves".


I think a lot of people didn't realize what was happening before they pulled the trigger and bought an EPIC. They saw what they thought would be a "great deal" but no one knew that EPIC pass sales would increase by 76% adding almost 1Million more pass holders that would flood their resorts. Not to mention staffing issues.

As discussed by others in this thread, I think this whole thing will end bad... for Vail and us skiers. Vail Resorts primary mission is to satisfy share holders by constantly increasing profit. To do that they will need more acquisitions, thus destroying our beloved local mountains. They will also need to hike prices, which will be easier because they have a monopoly. 

There is short term upside for us non-EPIC pass holders right now. Logically, if an additional million skiers and riders are flocking to Vail mountains, then non-epic resorts ought to be a bit less crowded. Those are the locations I'm specifically seeking to ski.

VUCK FAIL


----------



## Face4Me

Andy_ROC said:


> There is short term upside for us non-EPIC pass holders right now. Logically, if an additional million skiers and riders are flocking to Vail mountains, then non-epic resorts ought to be a bit less crowded. Those are the locations I'm specifically seeking to ski.


We were talking about this at Whiteface the other day ... If you're local to Whiteface/Gore/Belleayre, this is definitely an advantage to having an ORDA pass right now.

Sorry ... I forgot ... Fuck Vail!


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

I've done recent weekend trips to Hunter and Belleayre. While it's completely anecdotal and definitely not an apples-to-apples comparison, the lines at Hunter were twice as long.


----------



## Peter Minde

Vail (symbol MTN) down 3.58% so far today.


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

I've never shorted a stock before, but with so much anger and bad press still to come, and the stock trading at a ridiculous 85x earnings, I decided to give it a shot on Friday. 

So far so good, I'm up 5.5% on my short.


----------



## tirolski

MTN had ~$3.1 Billion in debt this summer before they gobbled the Pa hills, allegedly.
Maybe they’ll just use it as a case study ala Enron & Worldcom in The Harvard Business School.
The private Icon-ists could come to the rescue as well. Ya never know.








Vail Resorts, Inc. (MTN) Balance Sheet - Yahoo Finance


Get the annual and quarterly balance sheet of Vail Resorts, Inc. (MTN) including details of assets, liabilities and shareholders' equity.




finance.yahoo.com


----------



## Campgottagopee

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> I've done recent weekend trips to Hunter and Belleayre. While it's completely anecdotal and definitely not an apples-to-apples comparison, the lines at Hunter were twice as long.


Spoke with a buddy of mine who was at Hunter on Saturday to meet his son for some turns. He got first chair and said he enjoyed skiing with his son for about an 1.5 hrs, then it was a complete shit-show. Showed me a picture of the liftline and it was a horror movie. He then mentioned the only thing worse than waiting in that line was skiing down with the masses.


----------



## TonyC

tirolski said:


> Get food&bev at a Fail resort & it can be more than their bait ya to come epicpass price that only drops ya into the epic-failshow.


I didn't mention food&bev because skiers have much discretion on how to handle that. Lodging beyond daytrip distance skiers have some discretion, but I recognize that at some ski areas it is difficult to avoid paying more inflation adjusted $$ for lodging than in the past.


----------



## x10003q

Hunter and weekend lines have existed since forever. Hard to blame Vail for that. Hunter is for midweek skiing until March. Go to Plattekill on weekends.

Belleayre had 161K visits last year. Hunter might do 3 times that number. That is why Hunter is more crowded than Belleayre.


----------



## tirolski

TheGreatAbyss said:


> I've never shorted a stock before, but with so much anger and bad press still to come, and the stock trading at a ridiculous 85x earnings, I decided to give it a shot on Friday.
> 
> So far so good, I'm up 5.5% on my short.


Guess this goes here.
Opinion piece from Park City.








Tom Clyde: This is the year we broke it


I didn’t ski much during the holidays. I was blacked out at Park City Mountain Resort and crowded out at Deer Valley. There was no possible reason to venture into town. While I wasn’t there…




www.parkrecord.com




&








Wall Street taking notice of Vail Resorts’ issues


Since early November, Vail Resorts' stock (MTN) has not been a great performer in the larger travel and leisure universe.




www.vaildaily.com




& meanwhile getting to the Sunapee Jam-fest.








Swingjointsinner on Instagram: "Never seen anything like this before at @mountsunapee... this was about 9am, already parking at the state beach and eventually cars were turned around with no where to park. Over an hour wait in traffic to get 3miles.


Swingjointsinner shared a post on Instagram: "Never seen anything like this before at @mountsunapee... this was about 9am, already parking at the state beach and eventually cars were turned around with no where to park. Over an hour wait in traffic to get 3miles. 31 percent open terrain. So long...




www.instagram.com


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> Guess this goes here.
> Opinion piece from Park City.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Clyde: This is the year we broke it
> 
> 
> I didn’t ski much during the holidays. I was blacked out at Park City Mountain Resort and crowded out at Deer Valley. There was no possible reason to venture into town. While I wasn’t there…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.parkrecord.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wall Street taking notice of Vail Resorts’ issues
> 
> 
> Since early November, Vail Resorts' stock (MTN) has not been a great performer in the larger travel and leisure universe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com


Love this quote _"A friend sent a Wall Street analyst’s report on Vail Resorts stock. He rated it as a “sell” because the business model of the Epic Pass is creating overcrowding and a poor customer experience that is “not pleasing their customers.” They won’t buy again next year. Why is Wall Street commenting on lift lines? Because Wall Street is running ski resorts. Instead of skiers. What could possibly go wrong?"_


----------



## NYSkiBlog




----------



## Low Angle Life

I just hope wall streets solution isn't just throwing more money at the problem.


----------



## voodoo

It is funny how V optimistically reported to Wall Street up to 45% increase of passes. However "pass" is a contract for the service yet to be provided. And they are failing to provide proper service (due to covid, snow, poor workforce, etc, etc). MTN stock is gonna go down deeper than the rest of the market.


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

The real impact may not be seen until next fall when people don't renew their passes. But I'm hoping the expectation of decreased sales and higher costs drives it down a bit more


----------



## RichTee

I'm stuck with FAIL, my mountain home is right in the middle of all these FAIL properties..........so I've made a concerned effort to NOT spend any money at them. I bring my own food and drinks with me. I buy nothing while I'm there!


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

If they fix the crowding issues, pay their staff a fair wage, and generally run the mountains better would you start spending money at that mountains?


----------



## Harvey

RichTee said:


> I'm stuck with FAIL, my mountain home is right in the middle of all these FAIL properties..........so I've made a concerned effort to NOT spend any money at them. I bring my own food and drinks with me. I buy nothing while I'm there!


Rich, would you share (generally) where you are?

Also did you vote? ?


----------



## Campgottagopee

TheGreatAbyss said:


> If they fix the crowding issues,


This would be my biggest issue, but how on earth do you control crowding issues? Limiting the number of guest's / day? That will just piss people off, no?


----------



## Harvey

Raise the pass price.

Some will probably drop off anyway?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Raise the pass price.
> 
> Some will probably drop off anyway?


Gotcha
That makes sense.


----------



## Brownski

Thats a tough issue. Clearly it has to do with pricing. Where's the line between selling a loss-leader and predatory pricing? On the other hand, a pass is supposed to give you access to actual skiing. How long do the lines have to be before you can claim they're not delivering what you paid for?


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Thats a tough issue. Clearly it has to do with pricing. Where's the line between selling a loss-leader and predatory pricing? On the other hand, a pass is supposed to give you access to actual skiing. How long do the lines have to be before you can claim they're not delivering what you paid for?


I think there is a lawsuit based on this somewhere.


----------



## Andy_ROC

TheGreatAbyss said:


> If they fix the crowding issues, pay their staff a fair wage, and generally run the mountains better would you start spending money at that mountains?



Just from my personal standpoint---
I've only been to 2 vail run mountains for a family trip in Feb 2020. 3 days Breck at a Ski in/out non VR property and 1 day trip to Vail. We had a wonderful time. We start early and ski late and don't stop to buy food. We always carry our own food and water for the day when we're at a big mountain, and I don't see that changing. 

My current position is that I will not go to any VR for any reason until they fix these issues. But now being more aware of what VR is doing, even if they do address some issues, I'll still avoid them because I don't like resorts that feel like Disney. I prefer more rustic, laid back places. I also loath big corporate takeover of ski mountains and towns that answer to wall street.


----------



## tirolski

RichTee said:


> I'm stuck with FAIL, my mountain home is right in the middle of all these FAIL properties..........so I've made a concerned effort to NOT spend any money at them. I bring my own food and drinks with me. I buy nothing while I'm there!


Attaboy Rich-T ?


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I think there is a lawsuit based on this somewhere.


Some folks are trying, allegedly.








With slopes limited, do Stevens Pass skiers have recourse? | HeraldNet.com


Lift ticket fine print bars a class action lawsuit, saying passes are non-refundable. But those might not be the last words.




www.heraldnet.com


----------



## tirolski

It’ll be interesting how this plays out. 
Negotiations have been goin on for a long time.








Park City Mountain Resort ski patrollers overwhelmingly authorize a strike if talks with Vail Resorts unsuccessful


The membership of the union that represents ski patrollers at Park City Mountain Resort overwhelmingly voted to authorize a strike should negotiations with Vail Resorts, the Colorado-based owner of the resort, collapse.




www.vaildaily.com





And this tidbit.








Viral email claims Vail Resorts tried to recruit temporary patrollers to Park City for $600 a day plus travel fees - TownLift, Park City News


PARK CITY, Utah — A viral email thread shared widely on social media on Friday allegedly shows Vail Resorts Patrol Manager Nathan Jones trying to recruit ski patrollers at Vail-owned […]




townlift.com


----------



## Low Angle Life

Harvey said:


> Raise the pass price.
> 
> Some will probably drop off anyway?


At what price do people start to drop away though? Vail has created a pretty unbeatable value proposition in theory. They just have not been able to deliver on it. If they paid on mountain employees fair wages, ran regular maintenance on lifts and other infrastructure and really leaned into blowing snow IMO $2K would be a justifiable cost for Epic. 

Unfortunately I see things going a different way, more pay to play add ons and privileges, Airline club style. Want to ski Hunter West, thats a $500 add on to your pass price. The Hermitage private ski club model is the only thing that could really do damage to the Vail model in my mind. Places like that and the Yellowstone Club prove that if you're in the right tax bracket, no cost is too prohibitive for a decent ski experience. Those peasants who can't saddle up half a mil for a condo and $40K in annual dues will be stuck skiing with the masses.


----------



## Harvey

Low Angle Life said:


> value proposition


The real question is... when will skiers adjust their perception of value? Will it continue to be only about lift ticket price?

Look at my pics from Plattekill on the front page. If I get 7 days at Plattekill this year (a reasonable estimate) I'll pay $100 a day. Would I rather be at Mt Snow for $50? Personally, no. I would not.

I guess I should put this in my sig, as I acknowledge I am a broken record on this topic.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Harvey said:


> I guess I should put this in my sig, as I acknowledge I am a broken record on this topic.


It's okay, I'm a fervent follower of your gospel. It's my guiding light come winter time.


----------



## Peter Minde

Harvey said:


> The real question is... when will skiers adjust their perception of value? Will it continue to be only about lift ticket price?
> 
> Look at my pics from Plattekill on the front page. If I get 7 days at Plattekill this year (a reasonable estimate) I'll pay $100 a day. Would I rather be at Mt Snow for $50? Personally, no. I would not.
> 
> I guess I should put this in my sig, as I acknowledge I am a broken record on this topic.



I rarely break even on my season pass at Mt van Ho... totally worth it.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

RichTee said:


> I'm stuck with FAIL, my mountain home is right in the middle of all these FAIL properties..........so I've made a concerned effort to NOT spend any money at them. I bring my own food and drinks with me. I buy nothing while I'm there!


Same - I've lived in the same old house for 15 years just outside of the village towards Prattsville
I haven't been to the bar in years - nor have I purchased any food. 
I just ride. If it's crowded - I don't ride.
Soon I'm gonna start heading out at lunch for turns after this quarter ends at work.
I love living here - the village and town are getting better every day. I frequent the local restaurants(Jessies is my favorite) once a week.. My local friends are my chosen family now. 

I'm just glad the Sackler family doesn't own Hunter anymore.


----------



## tirolski

Low Angle Life said:


> At what price do people start to drop away though? *Vail has created a pretty unbeatable value proposition in theory. *They just have not been able to deliver on it. If they paid on mountain employees fair wages, ran regular maintenance on lifts and other infrastructure and really leaned into blowing snow IMO $2K would be a justifiable cost for Epic.


 “In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory. In practice, there is.” Yogi Berra


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

The whole "season pass" model has to change with these mega passes. You can't have all 2 million pass holders showing up to PCMR at the same day. Maybe they should only sell a basic regional non-holiday pass, then have a reservation system that requires you to pre-book and pay up for holidays, and resorts outside of your region. Once the resort is booked to capacity that's it, don't bother showing up. 

Yeah it ruins the notion of a "season pass", but I don't see any other way.


----------



## voodoo

Found the following at Yahoo Finance board for MTN: "Buy Dec 2022 expire puts, by then the terrible pass purchases #'s for 2023 will be out and they will be terrible, this turkey isn't cooked yet but give it some time".

Does it make sense?


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

voodoo said:


> Found the following at Yahoo Finance board for MTN: "Buy Dec 2022 expire puts, by then the terrible pass purchases #'s for 2023 will be out and they will be terrible, this turkey isn't cooked yet but give it some time".
> 
> Does it make sense?


$280 put seems pricey at $25, but let us know what your black sholes model says..


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> I believe that back when skiing was more local, the average income of skiers was more... average.


The history of the ski industry in NY, New England, and the mid-Atlantic is pretty different from the states that have local ski areas with over 1000 acres and destination resorts that have attracted international customers for a few decades.


----------



## MarzNC

TheGreatAbyss said:


> The real impact may not be seen until next fall when people don't renew their passes. But I'm hoping the expectation of decreased sales and higher costs drives it down a bit more


Multi-resort pass sales start in the spring. By fall, the numbers are well known.

Big question is what the pricing will be like for Epic . . . can't repeat another 20% decrease. A 20% increase back to pre-pandmic levels?


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> Multi-resort pass sales start in the spring. By fall, the numbers are well known.
> 
> Big question is what the pricing will be like for Epic . . . can't repeat another 20% decrease. A 20% increase back to pre-pandmic levels?


If they paid me to ski at a Vail Resorts Inc's shitshow I wouldn’t.


----------



## voodoo

TheGreatAbyss said:


> $280 put seems pricey at $25, but let us know what your black sholes model says..


I dono.. Gonna talk to folks at discord where i am getting swing trade/scalping alerts.


----------



## tirolski

voodoo said:


> I dono... i am getting swing trade/scalping alerts.


What da ya do?


----------



## voodoo

tirolski said:


> What da ya do?


Stuff 
looking at shorting MTN maybe. The stock is gonna drop


----------



## Harvey

I don't know the lingo or about shorting. I do know that anything that is truly known as a fact is already priced into a stock.

Does the act of shorting (if enough people do it) put downward pressure on a stock?

Also would like to hear opinions, if Vail implodes how will that effect skiing as a whole, and skiers at Vail mountains and skiers at other mountains? Do we need to watch what we wish for?

I couldn't figure out how to put both of these on the same graph. Looks like the downward pressure started in early November...


----------



## Andy_ROC

voodoo said:


> Stuff
> looking at shorting MTN maybe. The stock is gonna drop


Well of course what MTN could do is announce a stock buy back "because they believe their stock is a great value"... thus propping up share prices. Kind of what companies have been doing for the last decade with all the cheap money available. The executive teams across America have benefited richly from such practice.


----------



## voodoo

Harvey said:


> I don't know the lingo or about shorting. I do know that anything that is truly known as a fact is already priced into a stock.
> 
> Does the act of shorting (if enough people do it) put downward pressure on a stock?
> 
> Also would like to hear opinions, if Vail implodes how will that effect skiing as a whole, and skiers at Vail mountains and skiers at other mountains? Do we need to watch what we wish for?


Vail is too big to maintain resorts properly. They are spreading too thing. Facebook can grow indefinetely in cyberspace. In the offline world it is virtually impossible. Too many moving parts. Local companies could be more successful running their resorts. It is their communities after all. Maybe issuing limited amounts of passes, maybe scheduling - just like movie theaters. It would be stupid to issue 1000 movie tickets for a blockbuster at theater which has only 100 seats. Something like that.


----------



## Harvey

So if Vail goes down, all the ski areas would be sold and continue to operate?

You are new, so you might not know, I am not a fan of the impact of Vail on skiing, and I certainly hope they don't buy any of my favorite mountains. Just wondering if we are screwed either way, if Vail lives or if they die?


----------



## voodoo

Andy_ROC said:


> Well of course what MTN could do is announce a stock buy back "because they believe their stock is a great value"... thus propping up share prices. Kind of what companies have been doing for the last decade with all the cheap money available. The executive teams across America have benefited richly from such practice.


Could be. But something tells me they are short in cash. AAPL could do such stunts. MTN - I doubt


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

Harvey said:


> Does the act of shorting (if enough people do it) put downward pressure on a stock?


I believe the way it works is when a trader short sells the broker sells shares on the traders behalf, thus yes, putting downward pressure on the stock. When the trader exits the position he/she buys them and restores them to the broker and receives the difference in the initial sales price minus the buy price. Exiting the position would put upward pressure in the price.

I'm not expert so take this with a grain of salt


----------



## voodoo

Harvey said:


> So if Vail goes down, all the ski areas would be sold and continue to operate?
> 
> You are new, so you might not know, I am not a fan of the impact of Vail on skiing, and I certainly hope they don't buy any of my favorite mountains. Just wondering if we are screwed either way, if Vail lives or if they die?


I am not Vail fan either. I am not a fan of mega-corporations in general. The way Vail operates like if they are buying real estate of a quiet tight-knit neighborhood and then start renting out to anybody per hour. And the community dies.


----------



## voodoo

TheGreatAbyss said:


> I'm not expert so take this with a grain of salt


They usually say "not a financial advice".
Also: the safest way to do options are: covered calls and cash covered puts.


----------



## Jersey Skier

voodoo said:


> Could be. But something tells me they are short in cash. AAPL could do such stunts. MTN - I doubt


They have $1.47 Billion in cash on hand.


----------



## tirolski

The ex-CEO but still Chairman Katz sold some shares in the last ~1/2 year to the tune of enough to buy several mountains.








Stock Screeners - Yahoo Finance


Find Yahoo Finance predefined, ready-to-use stock screeners to search stocks by industry, index membership, and more. Create your own screens with over 150 different screening criteria.




finance.yahoo.com


----------



## tirolski

Jersey Skier said:


> They have $1.47 Billion in cash on hand.


Yup and a lot more of debt too, allegedly. 
There’s also a lot of that thing called “goodwill”, which is an oxymoron if there ever was one.


----------



## voodoo

Jersey Skier said:


> They have $1.47 Billion in cash on hand.



Vail Resorts long term debt for 2021 was *$2.736B*, a *14.62% increase* from 2020.
Vail Resorts long term debt for 2020 was *$2.387B*, a *56.25% increase* from 2019.





__





Vail Resorts Long Term Debt 2010-2022 | MTN


Vail Resorts long term debt from 2010 to 2022. Long term debt can be defined as the sum of all long term debt fields. <ul style='margin-top:10px;'> <li>Vail Resorts long term debt for the quarter ending April 30, 2022 was <strong>$2.687B</strong>, a <strong>1.92%...




www.macrotrends.net


----------



## tirolski

voodoo said:


> Vail Resorts long term debt for 2021 was *$2.736B*, a *14.62% increase* from 2020.
> Vail Resorts long term debt for 2020 was *$2.387B*, a *56.25% increase* from 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts Long Term Debt 2010-2022 | MTN
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts long term debt from 2010 to 2022. Long term debt can be defined as the sum of all long term debt fields. <ul style='margin-top:10px;'> <li>Vail Resorts long term debt for the quarter ending April 30, 2022 was <strong>$2.687B</strong>, a <strong>1.92%...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrotrends.net


Yup.
Attaboy ? 
Now do the thing called “goodwill".
They’ve been buying mountains and call something “goodwill” and putting it in the books as the piss off the local folks who ski there.
See how that thing got bigger when they started gobbling.
What does goodwill have to do with buying ski mountains?


----------



## Brownski

My two cents: I’m not a financial advisor. The debt is what will trigger Vail’s fall, just like it did with ASC. They will eventually have to start selling tangible assets (resorts) in order to keep making their payments. This is not the first round of consolidation in the ski business. Next will be another decentralization. It seems to follow a boom/bust cycle.


----------



## voodoo

Brownski said:


> They will eventually have to start selling tangible assets (resorts) in order to keep making their payments.


Something is telling me it is going to be a sale with huge discount since most of the resorts are coming with debt, increasing maintenance costs, contracts ("epic pass") yet to be fulfilled..
One of the solutions could be to split Vail into several companies like Vail California, Vail NorthWest, etc and try to deal with problems on a local level rather than on a corp global level. Vail is gonna collapse by itself or will be split via regulation or by shareholders vote. The current board should trim dead wood. The CEO must go. Lynch is not a leader, she is a Woke culture affirmative action CEO.


----------



## tirolski

voodoo said:


> The CEO must go. Lynch is not a leader, she is a Woke culture affirmative action CEO.


VD, Katz is somewhat similar.
Don’t know the date on this but Katz is different than others I’ve met who actually managed smaller mountains.








King of the Hill: How Vail Resorts Conquered the Ski Industry


No one dominates the ski business like Vail Resorts. Here’s how its CEO, Rob Katz, became the guy skiers love — and love to hate.




www.mensjournal.com


----------



## trackbiker

voodoo said:


> Lynch is not a leader, she is a Woke culture affirmative action CEO.


Her algorithms may have worked in a consumer product business but they don't work in a skiing, travel, entertainment, service business. That and killing off your future customers by eliminating groups, clubs, schools, and raising the day rate so high that very few will take up the sport is not a good long term strategy. 
But that's OK. The execs will take take their stock profits before the fall, wipe their hands of the business, and leave the remaining stock holders and banks holding the bag.


----------



## x10003q

Katz cut his teeth as an investment bank guy. The debt is just part of the game and, currently, the debt is cheap.


----------



## Campgottagopee

trackbiker said:


> But that's OK. The execs will take take their stock profits before the fall, wipe their hands of the business, and leave the remaining stock holders and banks holding the bag.


Boom
The American way


----------



## voodoo

trackbiker said:


> Her algorithms may have worked in a consumer product business but they don't work in a skiing, travel, entertainment, service business. That and killing off your future customers by eliminating groups, clubs, schools, and raising the day rate so high that very few will take up the sport is not a good long term strategy.
> But that's OK. The execs will take take their stock profits before the fall, wipe their hands of the business, and leave the remaining stock holders and banks holding the bag.


Agreed. She used to sell sugar water back at PepsiCo (as a Chief Marketing officer). She is full of typical marketing bs.
She has no idea how to run ski resorts.



https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirsten-lynch-6b5a171/


----------



## DMC_Hunter

tirolski said:


> Sorry. I‘ll have to circle back to ya when I’m less lame.


Don't bother - if it even happens...


----------



## voodoo

tirolski said:


> VD, Katz is somewhat similar.
> Don’t know the date on this but Katz is different than others I’ve met who actually managed smaller mountains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> King of the Hill: How Vail Resorts Conquered the Ski Industry
> 
> 
> No one dominates the ski business like Vail Resorts. Here’s how its CEO, Rob Katz, became the guy skiers love — and love to hate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mensjournal.com


Dono.. I am not a fan of this Katz guy. On the photo from your link the guy looks like a prison warden, people at the background are wearing anti-riot outfit & equipment LOL

Definitely not a family friendly place. I am sure he was replace with a female CEO just to facelift Vail's facade. It fails miserably.


----------



## Tjf1967

DMC_Hunter said:


> Don't bother - if it even happens...


How do you think Hunter is being run with Vail as owner. Your boots on the ground,I respect your opinion.


----------



## voodoo

x10003q said:


> Katz cut his teeth as an investment bank guy. The debt is just part of the game and, currently, the debt is cheap.


What's gonna happen to the cheap debt when Feds start rising the rate?


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

voodoo said:


> Agreed. She used to sell sugar water back at PepsiCo (as a Chief Marketing officer). She is full of typical marketing bs.
> She has no idea how to run ski resorts.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirsten-lynch-6b5a171/


To be fair she's been at VR for 10 years. Not like she's fresh out of the soda fountain.


----------



## voodoo

TheGreatAbyss said:


> To be fair she's been at VR for 10 years. Not like she's fresh out of the soda fountain.


She is a typical marketing "PowerPoint presentation" kinda corporate rubbish. Who could speak for hours and says nothing. She could paint Titanic pink but it is not gonna save it. And she is out of viable ideas


----------



## x10003q

voodoo said:


> What's gonna happen to the cheap debt when Feds start rising the rate?


The Fed will slow roll the rate up and it will still be cheap money until the next presidential election.


----------



## voodoo

x10003q said:


> The Fed will slow roll the rate up and it will still be cheap money until the next presidential election.


I do not believe VR is gonna be debt free anytime soon.


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

Not an expert on corporate debt, but doesn't it depend on the type of debt? Fixed rate (like a traditional mortgage) vs a revolving (like a credit card)?


----------



## voodoo

TheGreatAbyss said:


> Not an expert on corporate debt, but doesn't it depend on the type of debt? Fixed rate (like a traditional mortgage) vs a revolving (like a credit card)?


it could be anything: fixed, ARM-like.. I am sure this Katz guy has a petty sophisticated schema in regards of VR debt.


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

Well I'm assuming he was smart enough to do fixed when interest rates were so low.


----------



## voodoo

TheGreatAbyss said:


> Well I'm assuming he was smart enough to do fixed when interest rates were so low.


could be even smarter than that who knows


----------



## RichTee

DMC_Hunter said:


> Same - I've lived in the same old house for 15 years just outside of the village towards Prattsville
> I haven't been to the bar in years - nor have I purchased any food.
> I just ride. If it's crowded - I don't ride.
> Soon I'm gonna start heading out at lunch for turns after this quarter ends at work.
> I love living here - the village and town are getting better every day. I frequent the local restaurants(Jessies is my favorite) once a week.. My local friends are my chosen family now.
> 
> I'm just glad the Sackler family doesn't own Hunter anymore.


Same here, except I love the bar, (poor bartenders), you're the drummer for Third Rail, right?


----------



## not2brite

Think the easiest way to solve the crowding issue would be make each pass buyer designate a "home" mountain. Put a cap on this number but give them unlimited access there. Then dole out access to everywhere else in tiers, 5 days, 10 days, partial holiday blackouts etc., with the caveat you need to reserve ahead of time. You still have a ridiculous amount of access to mountains at a low price, but this should help avoid everyone showing up at once. Kill the overcrowding and your halfway home to fixing the on mountain experience.


----------



## TonyC

> Don’t know the date on this but Katz is different than others I’ve met who actually managed smaller mountains.


Reading the article which refers to recent purchase of Whistler/Blackcomb, I'd say late 2016 to early 2017. The article is very complimentary, but times are different now. People back then may have complained about Vail throwing its weight around and homogenizing parts of the ski experience, but nobody was saying they didn't upgrade their purchases or operate their areas competently. 

Alterra was formed in April 2017, and despite there being valid questions about its business model, this seems to be about the time Vail started making more mistakes. Sources tell me they way overpaid for the Mueller properties (Crested Butte, Okemo and Sunapee) and Stowe. Vail paid $174 million for Hotham and Falls Creek in Australia in 2019 vs. Mammoth's purchase of Snow Summit/Bear Mt. in SoCal for $34 million in 2014. These areas are almost exact analogies in terms of size, skier visits and "feeder status" to destination skiing elsewhere. 

Then we read about Vail trying to replace their HR with an app, right at the time they have 20+ new ski areas to manage?


----------



## voodoo

TonyC said:


> Then we read about Vail trying to replace their HR with an app, right at the time they have 20+ new ski areas to manage?


I wouldn't be surpised if they are saving on office printer paper and free stuff at cafeteria as well. They are saving pennies on peanuts while losing a lot on mismanaging the resorts. Hash tag F. V


----------



## x10003q

voodoo said:


> I do not believe VR is gonna be debt free anytime soon.


Just like 90% of all S&P 500 corporations.


----------



## jasonwx

Ski patrollers at Utah’s largest resort could be headed for a showdown with Vail Resorts. 

On Monday, the Park City Professional Ski Patrol Association (PCPSPA) *voted to stop working* should ownership reject a pay increase. Union leadership announced that 168 of its 171 members voted in favor of going on strike. 

The union has been in negotiations with Vail Resorts about raising its minimum wage since August 2020. The current starting wage for patrollers there is $13.25 per hour. Vail has offered to increase that to $15 per hour, but the union is asking for a $17 per hour minimum as well as a $1 per hour increase after an employee’s first three years of service. 

“A strike authorization does not mean that a walkout is inevitable,” the PCPSPA *wrote online*. “However, it does show that our membership is prepared to participate in a work stoppage if necessary.”

A strike would likely shut down Park City Mountain Resort during its busiest stretch of the year. 

“Ideally, the company sees this authorization as an indicator of our collective strength and offers us a reasonable contract without requiring further action,” the union said in a statement. 

Last week a representative from Vail Resorts told the_ Salt Lake Tribune_ that the company is preparing for a potential strike. The newspaper *recently reported* that a Vail employee contacted ski patrollers in New Hampshire, offering $600 a day and travel expenses to come work in Utah in the event of a strike. A Vail Resorts spokesperson said the email was unauthorized.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Organized labor movements are the way! Very proud of our ski patrol comrades over in PC. The only effective answer to organized greed is organized labor y'all.


----------



## Andy_ROC

x10003q said:


> Just like 90% of all S&P 500 corporations.


Just like the entire economy actually


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

I get that there is a large supply of people who want to ski for a living, but $13.25/hour is insane. Even $17/hour is shockingly low. Nannies here in the NYC burbs get paid more than that.


----------



## Brownski

TheGreatAbyss said:


> I get that there is a large supply of people who want to ski for a living, but $13.25/hour is insane. Even $17/hour is shockingly low. Nannies here in the NYC burbs get paid more than that.


Seriously. Considering that they have to stay current as EMTs and whatever the certifications are to handle explosives and that they need these guys to stick around long term (unlike a liftie or a line cook or even an instructor) 13.25 is insane. Waiting 3 years for a raise is bonkers too.


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

TheGreatAbyss said:


> I've never shorted a stock before, but with so much anger and bad press still to come, and the stock trading at a ridiculous 85x earnings, I decided to give it a shot on Friday.
> 
> So far so good, I'm up 5.5% on my short.


With MTN popping back up I closed out my position and made enough to buy a day pass at Hunter one day. Mid-week of course . I don't have the testicular fortitude to hold a short position, with an unbounded potential for loss.


----------



## Tjf1967

TheGreatAbyss said:


> I get that there is a large supply of people who want to ski for a living, but $13.25/hour is insane. Even $17/hour is shockingly low. Nannies here in the NYC burbs get paid more than that.


I don't think ski patrol salary has ever been enough to raise a family, I wish them luck. Go get job that pays more is probably the only solution.


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

I agree, but there's a difference between "enough to raise a family", and enough to not be hand to mouth. If ski patrolling at PCMR paid a 6 figure salary I think half of the people on this forum would quit and go do that for a living.


----------



## Campgottagopee

TheGreatAbyss said:


> I agree, but there's a difference between "enough to raise a family", and enough to not be hand to mouth.


It's a lifestyle and not a career. Some willingly choose lifestyle over career, they kknow what they're getting into. Ski bums are kings at living off of no money.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> It's a lifestyle and not a career. Some willingly choose lifestyle over career, they kknow what they're getting into. Ski bums are kings at living off of no money.


Ramen, gas station hot dogs and PBR for the win!


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> Ramen, gas station hot dogs and PBR for the win!


I'll add potatoes
We ate more potatoes than I care to even think about


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

Instant noodle prices up 11%, sharpest gain since 2009


Prices of instant noodle products rose 11 percent from a year ago in October, the largest jump since 2009, leading an overall increase in food prices, government data showed Sunday. According to the state-run Statistics Korea, ramen prices reached the highest on record last month, growing by...



www.koreaherald.com





I'm getting a sodium hangover just thinking about your ski bumming diet.


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> I'll add potatoes
> We ate more potatoes than I care to even think about


Ha! We were on the lift in Cham and my ski bum buddy pulled a raw potato out of his pocket and started eating it like an apple. ?


----------



## Brownski

I don't think ski bums should expect to make enough to raise a family on either. I think the difference here is that the patrollers theoretically have a better bargaining position than other mountain employees because of the training required. You can't just hire somebody off the street and make them a patroller overnight. I don't know what lift mechanics make at Vail resorts but hopefully its closer to 20 than 14. Thats about where patrollers should be.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Brownski said:


> I don't think ski bums should expect to make enough to raise a family on either. I think the difference here is that the patrollers theoretically have a better bargaining position than other mountain employees because of the training required. You can't just hire somebody off the street and make them a patroller overnight. I don't know what lift mechanics make at Vail resorts but hopefully its closer to 20 than 14. Thats about where patrollers should be.


I was tight with the patrollers at Smuggs. None of them had family's and were ski bums. They too chose the lifestyle.


----------



## Brownski

I agree and I understand why they do it. That doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid better. And I wouldn't expect Smuggs to pay what a full time patroller at Park City gets.


----------



## witch hobble

I’ve said it before…..the ski industry sold people the “dream” for 3 whole generations….the trope of the dude with the phd washing dishes at night so he can ski every day. The fact that we went along with it has helped suppress wages.

I was a pro patroller for 11 seasons. Started at $7.50/hr……finished at $11.80/hr.

Most seasoned pro patrollers, ime, have support in one of a few ways:

A more lucrative summer season job

A spouse or partner with a better wage/benefit package

Some family money/“unearned” income

Which isn’t to say that there aren’t a few people passing thru the lifestyle for a year or two between college and “real world” who live close to the bone, eating ramen with 16 housemates and what not.

But if you have the mix of hard and soft skills that a good patroller should have (first aid, accident scene command, EMS interface, ability to ski loaded sled in all terrain/conditions, run dispatch during the witching hour, write up sweep, lift evac protocols, knots/ropes, a front line personality with guests,etc, etc), to say nothing of avy work out west…….you have a skill set that could suit you in some more profitable career choice outside of ski town USA. So yes, I agree a choice has been made. But the old ski bum trope is powerful. It still would seem that the “pay” could be more “comensurate” with the skill set.


----------



## Low Angle Life

witch hobble said:


> I’ve said it before…..the ski industry sold people the “dream” for 3 whole generations….the trope of the dude with the phd washing dishes at night so he can ski every day. The fact that we went along with it has helped suppress wages.
> 
> I was a pro patroller for 11 seasons. Started at $7.50/hr……finished at $11.80/hr.
> 
> Most seasoned pro patrollers, ime, have support in one of a few ways:
> 
> A more lucrative summer season job
> 
> A spouse or partner with a better wage/benefit package
> 
> Some family money/“unearned” income
> 
> Which isn’t to say that there aren’t a few people passing thru the lifestyle for a year or two between college and “real world” who live close to the bone, eating ramen with 16 housemates and what not.
> 
> But if you have the mix of hard and soft skills that a good patroller should have (first aid, accident scene command, EMS interface, ability to ski loaded sled in all terrain/conditions, run dispatch during the witching hour, write up sweep, lift evac protocols, knots/ropes, a front line personality with guests,etc, etc), to say nothing of avy work out west…….you have a skill set that could suit you in some more profitable career choice outside of ski town USA. So yes, I agree a choice has been made. But the old ski bum trope is powerful. It still would seem that the “pay” could be more “comensurate” with the skill set.


Very spot on take from my perspective, clearly spoken from a place of personal knowledge. Everyone I know still working on hill either has a trust fund, or works construction building $2-5 million dollar second homes all summer. Not really a sustainable pool of potential employees if ya ask me.


----------



## raisingarizona

Experienced ski patrollers have value beyond the one or two season wonder candidates. They should be treated as such.


----------



## Harvey

Tjf1967 said:


> I don't think ski patrol salary has ever been enough to raise a family, I wish them luck. Go get job that pays more is probably the only solution.


I think I can repeat this because I got it from patrol:

"What is the difference between a pizza and a ski patroller?"

"One of them can feed a family."


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> Experienced ski patrollers have value beyond the one or two season wonder candidates. They should be treated as such.


Any pro patroller I've made turns with Fn rips too. Special combination of skills, no doubt.


----------



## Campgottagopee

One could say it takes a special set of skills to be a ski bum too. Unless you're a trust fund bum, nothing wrong with that btw, you learn to go without, and live like a king, all while being broke....lol


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> One could say it takes a special set of skills to be a ski bum too. Unless you're a trust fund bum, nothing wrong with that btw, you learn to go without, and live like a king, all while being broke....lol


“Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.” -JJ

That feeling you have when you have nothing other than your gear, a few bucks in your pocket, maybe a sticky bag of bud and nothing but time to ski is literally the second best thing I’ve ever experienced. The only thing that trumps it would be experiences with my daughter and watching her enjoy life.


----------



## voodoo

x10003q said:


> Just like 90% of all S&P 500 corporations.


Especially these days when everything is in deep red.. I put considerable amount of $$$ into ETFs like SPY/VOO, VNQ.. Was not fast enough to move the bulk of $$$ from growth stocks..


----------



## Andy_ROC

Stevens Pass Owner Replaces General Manager After Mounting Complaints About the Resort


Stevens Pass ski resort has a new general manager after mounting complaints from customers about poor service and limited operations of its lifts. Property




www.kpq.com


----------



## MarzNC

At least the "interim GM" has personal and professional experience at Stevens. Anyone remember if the folks at Kirkwood liked Tom Fortune as GM?

January 12, 2022


A Letter from the new Interim General Manager of Stevens Pass – Pure PNW Blog


_" . . .
I am glad to be coming home, even if just temporarily, to support this period of transition at Stevens Pass. 

I grew up at Stevens Pass and my ski career started here, too. My three boys have grown up at this mountain and also call it home. I worked my way through the ranks for 20 years (I have the photo to prove it, see below), ultimately leaving in 1999, having served as Director of Operations. Since then, I have been lucky enough to manage a number of amazing resorts across the western United States, gaining new insight and experience along the way. This includes time at Schweitzer Mountain in Idaho as GM, followed by moving to the Tahoe area in 2010, where I’ve held several senior operations roles at both Heavenly and Kirkwood. In 2016, I proudly became the GM of Kirkwood, and three years later, I began serving in my current role as GM at Heavenly. 
. . ."_


----------



## not2brite

NY Ski Blog and Storm Skiing Journal are my only sources of sking news and events. All the complaints and problems I read about appear to be with Vail. Are all these issues specific to Vail? It seems like I do not read about the same problems with Boyne or Alterra. Do they suffer from some or any of the same issues, or are they just that much better at running things?


----------



## abe

Ikon areas have had far more terrain and lifts open in comparison to neighboring Vail areas, and have been involved in far fewer operational fiascos


----------



## Harvey

not2brite said:


> NY Ski Blog and Storm Skiing Journal


? ? ? You're all set bro!


----------



## Andy_ROC

abe said:


> Ikon areas have had far more terrain and lifts open in comparison to neighboring Vail areas, and have been involved in far fewer operational fiascos


Maybe it helps that they have a CEO that spent his entire career in skiing and mountain OP's, starting as a liftie at Mammoth. Whereas VR has a CEO that spent her career selling cars and snack products.


----------



## MarzNC

not2brite said:


> NY Ski Blog and Storm Skiing Journal are my only sources of sking news and events. All the complaints and problems I read about appear to be with Vail. Are all these issues specific to Vail? It seems like I do not read about the same problems with Boyne or Alterra. Do they suffer from some or any of the same issues, or are they just that much better at running things?


Crystal was bought by Alterra and also has some issues related to lack of parking and the increased population of the local market. But they can be more flexible about solutions because of the way operations are managed at individual resorts. The Alterra business model provides more local control for decision making.

As for Boyne, they have done a good job handling resorts in different regions with approaches that seem to take into account regional differences. What happens in New England, Michigan, Brighton in UT and at Big Sky in MT are based on the relevant markets and habits.

Powdr also allows more local decision making. Snowbird, Killington, Copper, Bachelor feel more like independents than resorts owned by the same company in terms of the vibe.


----------



## MarzNC

About Alterra's management philosophy. An interview with CEO Rusty Gregory in 2018 after he was in the job for a couple of months.

July 2018








Alterra: Big, Bold and Idiosyncratic


We believe that a decentralized approach to managing the organization—and making capital decisions and operational decisions—is the right way to stay connected to the local personalities of the resort and the local opportunities.




skitheworld.com




_" . . .
SAM: What does Alterra not want to borrow from the Vail Resorts’ strategy? 

RG: It’s less about borrowing than it is about the opportunity to not do the same thing in business with a business approach they are experts at.

We believe that a decentralized approach to managing the organization—and making capital decisions and operational decisions—is the right way to stay connected to the local personalities of the resort and the local opportunities. We want to enhance our local communities. We want to create a one-and-only approach to each of the mountains. That’s challenging, because it’s hard to create a systematic approach across a large platform when you are trying to create a bespoke outcome. But I think that fits the marketplace today and the space available to us, and we are very committed to that.
. . ."_


----------



## tirolski

Does any of this make any sense?




__





Vail Resorts Reports Certain Ski Season Metrics for the Season-to-Date Period Ended January 2, 2022 | Vail Resorts, Inc.


The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.



investors.vailresorts.com





This one is a bit baffling.
_Although overall visitation was negatively impacted by the poor conditions, particularly among our local guests, our season pass sales results significantly mitigated the impact of the challenging start to the season on lift revenue and highlighted the stability created by our advance commitment strategy._

Sounds as if they could be rationalizing the lower overall visitations numbers on the poor conditions of their local guests.
Better get their local guests in better shape.
Good luck with that.


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> _"Back at the pass deadline when people assumed we'd be able to deliver a product, we sold a fuckton of passes. Based on that, we'll have a decent year. If anyone has an ideas on how to deal with next season now that the secret is out... PM me."_



FIFY


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> FIFY _"Back at the pass deadline when people assumed we'd be able to deliver a product, we sold a fuckton of passes. Based on that, we'll have a decent year. If anyone has an ideas on how to deal with next season now that the secret is out... PM me."_


Don’t go putting yer words in my mouth Harv. You own those, just say it.


----------



## x10003q

Vail - working hard on its 2 Mt Washington Valley ski areas.
Wildcat Mtn - 2100vert ft, 225 total acres, 18% open








Lift & Terrain Status | Wildcat Mountain Resort







www.skiwildcat.com




Attitash - 1750 vert ft, 311 total acres, 36% open








Lift & Terrain Status | Wildcat Mountain Resort







www.skiwildcat.com


----------



## jasonwx

MarzNC said:


> About Alterra's management philosophy. An interview with CEO Rusty Gregory in 2018 after he was in the job for a couple of months.
> 
> July 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alterra: Big, Bold and Idiosyncratic
> 
> 
> We believe that a decentralized approach to managing the organization—and making capital decisions and operational decisions—is the right way to stay connected to the local personalities of the resort and the local opportunities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skitheworld.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _" . . .
> SAM: What does Alterra not want to borrow from the Vail Resorts’ strategy?
> 
> RG: It’s less about borrowing than it is about the opportunity to not do the same thing in business with a business approach they are experts at.
> 
> We believe that a decentralized approach to managing the organization—and making capital decisions and operational decisions—is the right way to stay connected to the local personalities of the resort and the local opportunities. We want to enhance our local communities. We want to create a one-and-only approach to each of the mountains. That’s challenging, because it’s hard to create a systematic approach across a large platform when you are trying to create a bespoke outcome. But I think that fits the marketplace today and the space available to us, and we are very committed to that.
> . . ."_


What a novel idea
Someone in charge of a ski company who actually has ski area management experience.


----------



## Ripitz

From my buddy at Hunter


----------



## x10003q

Who needs Hunter West?


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> From my buddy at Hunter
> View attachment 12039


Plattekill should use this for an add that says “I bet you wish you went to Plattekill”, or “if you drove just a little farther you wouldn’t be standing in lines right now”.

I guess though, it’s probably even better to not say anything at all ?


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> From my buddy at Hunter
> View attachment 12039


It still looks like this on the cam


----------



## trackbiker

Ripitz said:


> From my buddy at Hunter
> View attachment 12039


I would have turned around and gone home. 
Actually I would have gone to Plattekill or Belleayre to start with.


----------



## tirolski

Tom Clyde: Look out for the union label


As I’m writing this on Thursday, news has come that the ski patrol union at Park City Mountain Resort and Vail Resorts have reached a tentative agreement on pay. The agreement now goes out to…




www.parkrecord.com


----------



## raisingarizona

great article tirolski and good for them. Hopefully this sets new standards for all ski areas in NA.


----------



## tirolski

Jack friggin Frost.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483126886624550912


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Vail Resorts reports skier visits are down for start of the season


Vail Resorts reported Friday that its skier visits at its North American resorts from the beginning of the season through Jan. 2 are down 1.7% from the prior year, and down 18.3% compared with the…




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## G.ski

NYSkiBlog said:


> Vail Resorts reports skier visits are down for start of the season
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts reported Friday that its skier visits at its North American resorts from the beginning of the season through Jan. 2 are down 1.7% from the prior year, and down 18.3% compared with the…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com


Yay!


----------



## tirolski

G.ski said:


> Yay!


And they still managed to make Epicliftlines available so ya can watch for backups on their app.


----------



## tirolski

The EB5 immigration folks are getting riled up too now, allegedly.








Vail Resorts is threatening immigration status of foreign investors in Mount Snow project, Vermont regulators allege


Vermont regulators this month issued a cease-and-desist order to Vail Resorts, alleging that the Colorado-based ski giant is reneging on an agreement with roughly 30 immigrant investors that could …




www-denverpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> The EB5 immigration folks are getting riled up too now, allegedly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts is threatening immigration status of foreign investors in Mount Snow project, Vermont regulators allege
> 
> 
> Vermont regulators this month issued a cease-and-desist order to Vail Resorts, alleging that the Colorado-based ski giant is reneging on an agreement with roughly 30 immigrant investors that could …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www-denverpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org


LOL... The original plan even sounds shady. Give us money and you get a green card and a special path to citizenship. Seems eerily similar to the college entrance scandal


----------



## tirolski

Andy_ROC said:


> LOL... The original plan even sounds shady. Give us money and you get a green card and a special path to citizenship. Seems eerily similar to the college entrance scandal


Buyin yer way in with “big" $ FTW. 
It’s been around for awhile.


----------



## Brownski

Yes it is def shady- even though it’s totally legal. I don’t know who to root for this time.


----------



## x10003q

Vail probably does not want to do the 'Peak Resorts Project' from 2014 (what the money was for) and they have to refund the money. Vail clearly thinks they are not bound by the Peak Resort's action. This is classic lawyer vs lawyer crap.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> This is classic lawyer vs lawyer crap.


They probably all go out for drinks together and then bitch about who pays the tab.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

tirolski said:


> The EB5 immigration folks are getting riled up too now, allegedly.


I expected to see the words "Arial Quiros" in that article.


----------



## TonyC

MarzNC said:


> Powdr also allows more local decision making. Snowbird, Killington, Copper, Bachelor feel more like independents than resorts owned by the same company in terms of the vibe.


? You must have a short memory. What did POWDR Corp do when they bought Killington?
1) Closing dates first 5 years of POWDR ownership: April 20, May 2, April 25, May 1, April 22.
2) Jacked rates of kids/family programs exactly as Vail is doing now.
3) Surely you easterners remember the brouhaha over the ~6,000 lifetime season passes dating back to Killington's founding in 1958? POWDR walked away from those because they bought the area out of ASC's bankruptcy.

I'm sure there's more, but those are the issues where there was enough of a stink that I heard lots about it even in California.

I saw this coming because POWDR's takeover of Mt. Bachelor in 2001 was a dumpster fire. Here's Mt. Bachelor closing dates (Summit lift was completed in 1983):




I have a high school classmate who lives in Bend. He said POWDR also sold off over half their grooming machines and cut back on lift maintenance. Eventually the state of Oregon got interested when numerous skiers complained of oil dripping off chairlifts on their clothing. I had a glorious weekend of spring skiing at Bachelor in April 2007, but heard several unsolicited gripes about POWDR from locals while sharing chair rides. The Killington deal was just then in the works and I told my friend:


> If Powdr Corp manages Killington this way, the New Englanders will not be as polite as the Oregonians and Powdr Corp will be crucified with negative publicity.



Eventually in both cases POWDR corrected some of the glaring issues. While Bachelor's season no longer extends past Memorial Day, operations in April/May are more extensive now that in the 2000's and there has been improvement in lifts/grooming. 

And yes KIllington's early/late season has been restored, but it took 5 years. I suspect Vail will make some corrections too, as it will hit their bottom line before too long if they don't.


----------



## MarzNC

TonyC said:


> ? You must have a short memory. What did POWDR Corp do when they bought Killington?
> 1) Closing dates first 5 years of POWDR ownership: April 20, May 2, April 25, May 1, April 22.
> 2) Jacked rates of kids/family programs exactly as Vail is doing now.
> 3) Surely you easterners remember the brouhaha over the ~6,000 lifetime season passes dating back to Killington's founding in 1958? POWDR walked away from those because they bought the area out of ASC's bankruptcy.


Actually I wasn't following skiing in the northeast at all when Powdr bought Killington. I live in the southeast, not NY or VT. I sampled northeast skiing 2013-19 when my daughter was in school in the region for curiosity but mostly during early and late season. I'm too spoiled by skiing out west. In any case, I didn't start paying attention to the ski industry until a few years ago. For that matter, I didn't start skiing more than 10-15 days a season until about a dozen years ago.

My point was that POWDR doesn't seem to try to operate individual resorts with exactly the same management approach as much as VR. The issues that happened as POWDR made acquisitions seemed unique to each resort. As opposed to what seems to be happening for VR resorts in more than one region at the moment. What do you think of what VR has been doing in PA? Or OH?


----------



## TonyC

MarzNC said:


> I didn't start paying attention to the ski industry until a few years ago.


I recognized your screen name from the late EpicSki Forum (perhaps my greatest personal beef with Vail is its demise at their hands in 2017) and thought you were involved with Ski Forums for a long time.

In the 2000's POWDR did indeed try to run their resorts in a similar manner, with the possible exception of their Park City flagship. There was a pervasive opinion among skiers that the non-flagship resorts were run on the cheap.

You might remember also that in 2014 POWDR Corp made perhaps the greatest blunder in ski industry history when they failed to renew their grandfathered cheap lease for I think 85% of Park City's land. The leaseholder Talisker had sold its interest to Vail, and POWDR Corp at one point threatened a scorched earth strategy of dismantling Park City's lifts and closing the area. After losing the first round of litigation, POWDR Corp settled and sold Park City to Vail for considerably less than Vail had paid for the Canyons earlier after sizing up the situation and gambling they would indeed win Park City too.

At any rate POWDR Corp has made a lot of mistakes and it's not unreasonable to think they have learned a few things from those experiences.

Living in California, I have some interest in the ski areas in the Northeast but not much in the mid-Atlantic or Midwest. But I've always said ski areas have to operate in their regional context. Even Southern California and Mammoth are different markets and I believe Mammoth made a few mistakes when they took over the Big Bear areas.

From afar my impression was that local hills outside Minneapolis, Detroit and Chicago were spruced up and improved by Vail. Vail has been criticized for years about "being the 800 pound gorilla," homogenizing resorts, squeezing out local businesses. But this is the first year I've seen issues of competence in operations. That has historically been one of Vail's strengths. These current critiques of Vail are much more like the critiques of POWDR in the 2000's.


----------



## tirolski

TonyC said:


> ...In the 2000's POWDR did indeed try to run their resorts in a similar manner, with the possible exception of their Park City flagship...
> You might remember also that in 2014 POWDR Corp made perhaps the greatest blunder in ski industry history when they failed to renew their grandfathered cheap lease for I think 85% of Park City's land. The leaseholder Talisker had sold its interest to Vail, and POWDR Corp at one point threatened a scorched earth strategy of dismantling Park City's lifts and closing the area. After losing the first round of litigation, POWDR Corp settled and sold Park City to Vail for considerably less than Vail had paid for the Canyons earlier after sizing up the situation and gambling they would indeed win Park City too.


They’re in bed together at Whistler, allegedly.
edit yer correct it’s Alterra


----------



## TonyC

I thought it was KSL (an Alterra partner), not POWDR, that had a minority interest in Whistler.


----------



## G.ski

Brownski said:


> Yes it is def shady- even though it’s totally legal. I don’t know who to root for this time.


Totally legal except for the fraud part up at Jay.


----------



## Brownski

G.ski said:


> Totally legal except for the fraud part up at Jay.


Well, yeah- except for the fraud part


----------



## MarzNC

TonyC said:


> I recognized your screen name from the late EpicSki Forum (perhaps my greatest personal beef with Vail is its demise at their hands in 2017) and thought you were involved with Ski Forums for a long time.


Being active in ski forums is not the same as spending time reading about and/or discussing the industry. I didn't get Chris Diamond's first book, Ski Inc., until a few years ago. That was well after EpicSki disappeared from the Internet. I wasn't skiing more than a week out west until after 2009. Too busy being a parent of a kid in elementary school in NC.

So far, I've never had a reason to get an Epic Pass. Ikon and the MCP, or Indy, is what I get to go exploring beyond my home mountain in northern Virginia, Massanutten.


----------



## MarzNC

TonyC said:


> From afar my impression was that local hills outside Minneapolis, Detroit and Chicago were spruced up and improved by Vail. Vail has been criticized for years about "being the 800 pound gorilla," homogenizing resorts, squeezing out local businesses. But this is the first year I've seen issues of competence in operations. That has historically been one of Vail's strengths. These current critiques of Vail are much more like the critiques of POWDR in the 2000's.


Those acquisitions (Afton Alps, Mt. Brighton, Wilmot) were very different than when VR added the resorts owned by Triple Peaks and Peak Resorts. The first three "urban" resorts were independent family-owned resorts that needed capital investment. VR budgeted millions to replace lifts and renovate base lodges. By the end of the first year of operations under full VR management, the locals were pretty happy. There are local passes still available for those locations, so people don't have to buy a more expensive Epic pass if they only want to ski local.

Triple Peaks only had two locations in the northeast. It's pretty clear that locals who have been skiing Okemo for a decade or two haven't been too happy at how the situation has been evolving. Those who are Sunapee fans are probably happier because that mountain needed improvements and VR and moved forward on a few projects. Sunapee terrain is on land owned by the State of NH, so no one expects changes to happen fast.

The resorts owned by Peak Resorts in the northeast are quite a different story. Yet again a different situation for the original Peak Resorts in the midwest. The Washington DC and northern VA folks hadn't really gotten over the sale of the Snowtime resorts (Roundtop, Liberty, Whitetail) to Peak Resorts when they situation changed even more with the take over by VR. DCSki is one of the regional ski forums that I've been active on since before I posted on EpicSki. DC folks are not happy with Epic Northeast or Epic. Ikon and Indy are far more popular as multi-resort passes.


----------



## tirolski

Just guessing it wasn’t staged but ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484169156115288065


----------



## Q*bert Jones IV

I'm pretty sure the person slipping in the bg is also the excellent skier with the camera in her face at :29 seconds. No doubt she's on the media team.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Just guessing it wasn’t staged but ...


Fair to say that the DCSki folks who live in Pittsburgh are pretty nervous about the fact that VR bought the three ski areas/resorts that have been the local hills for a few decades. While there have been complaints about the former owner, they have been paying attention to what happened with the former Snowtime resorts that are local for folks in DC/noVA. Peak Resorts weren't popular, but the complaint level settled down after the first season.


----------



## tirolski

Q*bert Jones IV said:


> I'm pretty sure the person slipping in the bg is also the excellent skier with the camera in her face at :29 seconds. No doubt she's on the media team.


Different color of blue but ya could just change yer coat. 
If they got time for folks playing shenanigans they just might be better off to focus time on customer service. 
There’s a chance it could help.


----------



## MarzNC

The blog entries by the interim GM for Stevens should make for interesting reading in the next few weeks. The man seems to have a sense of humor.





__





INTRODUCING: FORTUNE TELLING – Pure PNW Blog






blog.stevenspass.com








__





Fortune Telling, January, 20th – Pure PNW Blog






blog.stevenspass.com


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Different color of blue but ya could just change yer coat.
> If they got time for folks playing shenanigans they just might be better off to focus time on customer service.
> There’s a chance it could help.


Looks like someone spent time roping off the area later when there wan’t as much snow onit. Same blue jacketed skier in clip.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484530684005953543


----------



## tirolski

Natives are restless.








Vail stock falls: Capacity, staffing problems at Stowe


On the night before Christmas, not a snow gun was stirring at Stowe Mountain Resort.




www.vtcng.com


----------



## tirolski

No phones will fix things? WTF








Vail Resorts’ plan to reduce lift lines includes ‘Phone Free Zones’


VAIL — It seems like something out of a dark comedy at this point in the season, with an enormous lift line occupying a full page of the Wall Street Journal. But believe it or…




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> No phones will fix things? WTF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts’ plan to reduce lift lines includes ‘Phone Free Zones’
> 
> 
> VAIL — It seems like something out of a dark comedy at this point in the season, with an enormous lift line occupying a full page of the Wall Street Journal. But believe it or…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com


Actually, this is a good thing. Too many clowns are addicted to their screens and cannot be occupied with something like conversation. I saw lots of "important" screen use while ignoring the request to step out of the corral and get on the lift. Then there is the struggle to stuff the phone in a pocket and put the gloves back on.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Looks like someone spent time roping off the area later when there wan’t as much snow onit. Same blue jacketed skier in clip.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484530684005953543


Their media isn’t coming outta Broomfield, Yet.
Attagirl ? 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484952965479862278


----------



## tirolski

Whoda thunk it?








Capital Allocation Trends At Vail Resorts (NYSE:MTN) Aren't Ideal


Finding a business that has the potential to grow substantially is not easy, but it is possible if we look at a few key...




finance.yahoo.com


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> Whoda thunk it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Capital Allocation Trends At Vail Resorts (NYSE:MTN) Aren't Ideal
> 
> 
> Finding a business that has the potential to grow substantially is not easy, but it is possible if we look at a few key...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finance.yahoo.com


In order to turn that around they will raise prices, buying mountains, raise prices again and buy up more continuing the process till they own the whole thing. On top of that there will be further Disneyfication in order to develop new income streams.


----------



## Harvey

@Stu is my friend and I REALLY try to support his efforts any way I can. I do read every newsletter, but somehow can't bring myself to listen to a pod.

Someone listen and report back? ?









Podcast #71: Vail Resorts Executive Chairperson of the Board Rob Katz


Listen now (97 min) | “The people who ski all of our resorts … need to feel like they are getting a good experience, and if they don’t, then our company is not successful.”




www.stormskiing.com


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> can't bring myself to listen to a pod.
> 
> Someone listen and report back?


Lots of driving today- so far I learned he’s a Hunter/Stratton guy and Vail CEO was his first job in the industry


----------



## Benny Profane

Brownski said:


> Lots of driving today- so far I learned he’s a Hunter/Stratton guy and Vail CEO was his first job in the industry


Yeah, but, not his first job. Finance guy. 

I'm going to go rant in the Katz thread. This deserves it's own discussion.


----------



## tirolski

Bi-partisan local BeaverCreekite pays $50 on mountain for some lettuce, chili, gatorades and a cookie.
Has to wait in line 20 min. to pay. Chili gets cold.
Then gets told he has to go outside to eatit with snow falling @17F.
Was polite and followed all the rules but went downstairs to eat on a bench by the bathroom.
The epicshitshow continues.








Carnes: ‘Common Courtesy Free Zone’ is more like it


Democrats are determined to ruin the America we know and love.




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## Peter Minde

Harvey said:


> @Stu is my friend and I REALLY try to support his efforts any way I can. I do read every newsletter, but somehow can't bring myself to listen to a pod.
> 
> Someone listen and report back? ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Podcast #71: Vail Resorts Executive Chairperson of the Board Rob Katz
> 
> 
> Listen now (97 min) | “The people who ski all of our resorts … need to feel like they are getting a good experience, and if they don’t, then our company is not successful.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stormskiing.com



I listened to the first 50 minutes or so, then I had to go out. Will get to the rest later


----------



## Benny Profane

Betcha Rob Katz wasn't too happy to read the NYT with his latte this morning.

For Skiers, a Winter of Discontent https://nyti.ms/3nZcj1z


----------



## Harvey

Geoff from Magic wasn't exactly thrilled to be featured in an article with that headline.


----------



## tirolski

Hey, it’s been cold for a month and the snow’s good now in a lot of places.
Folks are still blowing snow. 
Be happy. 
Vuck Fail.


----------



## MarzNC

Peter Minde said:


> I listened to the first 50 minutes or so, then I had to go out. Will get to the rest later


Couldn't listen to the entire podcast all at once. The second half had more interesting content. Could tell when Katz was out of his comfort zone when it came to operational issues outside of Colorado and Tahoe.

Anyone count how many times Katz says "ya know."? Pet peeve of mine since a teacher in high school made a point about that phrase.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Harvey said:


> Geoff from Magic wasn't exactly thrilled to be featured in an article with that headline.


And a big photo at the top in case people didn't bother to read the article.


----------



## abe

"Any publicity is good publicity"? The article wasn't really critical of Magic anyway, just that they had some staffing shortages which everyone has had


----------



## Harvey

abe said:


> "Any publicity is good publicity"? The article wasn't really critical of Magic anyway, just that they had some staffing shortages which everyone has had



True. I don't think he was totally serious either.


----------



## Ripitz

At least they give him credit for parking cars and flipping burgers to make up for the staffing shortage. Which I can confirm because the guy graciously gave me the last two hot dogs for free when the grill shut down. How many GMs are out there doing that?


----------



## Harvey

I give Geoff a lot of credit. They have faced a bunch this year.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> At least they give him credit for parking cars and flipping burgers to make up for the staffing shortage. Which I can confirm because the guy graciously gave me the last two hot dogs for free when the grill shut down. How many GMs are out there doing that?


When Katz & Stu discussed affordable housing problem for employees Katz mentions Boulder and never once mentioned his Broomfield Headquarters neighbors and most likely some of his employees that were just burnt out.
Katz’s out of touch and doubt he’ll be out giving free hotdogs like the ones mentioned above.
It’s at the 1hr20min mark or so.


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> Geoff from Magic wasn't exactly thrilled to be featured in an article with that headline.


Geoff the guy from magic. The guy who's mountain pretty much late an egg this year.


----------



## DomB

MarzNC said:


> Couldn't listen to the entire podcast all at once. The second half had more interesting content. Could tell when Katz was out of his comfort zone when it came to operational issues outside of Colorado and Tahoe.
> 
> Anyone count how many times Katz says "ya know."? Pet peeve of mine since a teacher in high school made a point about that phrase.


'Like', 'uh', and 'ya know'. I am sure I still do those, but have practiced to get closer to silence is better than gap fillers jammed into our brains at young ages.


----------



## Benny Profane

Hometown paper.









Backlash against Vail Resorts growing among skiers and snowboarders across the country


When Jeremy Rubingh posted an online petition blasting Vail Resorts for the way North America’s largest ski resort company is managing the Stevens Pass ski area, he had no inkling of the mass…




www.denverpost.com


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Hometown paper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Backlash against Vail Resorts growing among skiers and snowboarders across the country
> 
> 
> When Jeremy Rubingh posted an online petition blasting Vail Resorts for the way North America’s largest ski resort company is managing the Stevens Pass ski area, he had no inkling of the mass…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.denverpost.com


Vuck Fail Resorts Incorporated.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> ... After experiencing the ASC bankruptcy at my favorite hill, and watching many hills go down for whatever reasons, I just want responsible management of whatever is left. Give me a nice skiing experience at a reasonable price, and I'll be your customer. Don't do stupid crap that not only harms your balance sheet, but your competitors, when they're forced to compete. You're not Uber, with an endless stream of cash you can just take out back and light on fire. It's snow farming, as Lazlo says. Think like a farmer.


These folks are successful farmers ~10 miles or so from Song Mountain on the Onondaga Hill in The Up State.
They make some of their own equipment and maintain+fix nearly all of it themselves. 
It’s cold snowy farming in the winter. 
Got milk and/or cheese? Thanks for watching.


----------



## tirolski

Seems a local isn't happy in Park City.








Guest opinion: Subpar experience at PCMR is unsustainable


Vail Resorts and Park City Mountain Resort are in the midst of delivering a miserable experience both to locals and visitors.




www.parkrecord.com


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Seems a local isn't happy in Park City.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest opinion: Subpar experience at PCMR is unsustainable
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts and Park City Mountain Resort are in the midst of delivering a miserable experience both to locals and visitors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.parkrecord.com


Not running lifts is a problem for VR. But not having reliable free public bus service is a pandemic staffing issue for the town.

For context, the free bus between Taos and TSV didn't run at all last season and isn't running this season either. TSV has been fully open all season so I presume the issue is lack of bus drivers.


----------



## MarzNC

The new GM for Attitash, Brandon Swarz, is from the northeast. Is that a good sign? He wants his kids to grow up in NH.









Brandon Swarz Named as Attitash GM


SAM Magazine—Bartlett, N.H., Feb. 3, 2022—Brandon Swarz is moving back east to become the new general manager at Vail Resorts-owned Attitash, N.H., startin




www.saminfo.com





The former GM of Attitash who quit recently mid-season has become the GM of Mt. Rose.


----------



## witch hobble

MarzNC said:


> The new GM for Attitash, Brandon Swarz, is from the northeast. Is that a good sign? He wants his kids to grow up in NH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brandon Swarz Named as Attitash GM
> 
> 
> SAM Magazine—Bartlett, N.H., Feb. 3, 2022—Brandon Swarz is moving back east to become the new general manager at Vail Resorts-owned Attitash, N.H., startin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.saminfo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The former GM of Attitash who quit recently mid-season has become the GM of Mt. Rose.


That is a crazy journeyman ski industry resumé for such a young guy. Jumping all over the fucking place.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> The new GM for Attitash, Brandon Swarz, is from the northeast. Is that a good sign?


Somebody had to do it.

Let’s go Brandon!


----------



## tirolski

The locals in Park City aren’t too tickled, allegedly.








Vail Resorts broadsided in Park City as range of PCMR grievances brought to City Hall


A group of Park City residents delivered a broadside against Park City Mountain Resort owner Vail Resorts on Thursday evening, bringing a list of grievances to City Hall ranging from the operations of the resort to a Provo firm’s plans for a major development at the base area.




www.parkrecord.com


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Somebody had to do it.
> 
> Let’s go Brandon!


Oof. Bass drum. Rim shot, cymbal.


----------



## Benny Profane

witch hobble said:


> That is a crazy journeyman ski industry resumé for such a young guy. Jumping all over the fucking place.


Yeah, but at least it's experience in the hard work of doing many things on the hill, both large and small. He's not some finance nerd or soda pop marketer.


----------



## Harvey

I'm pissed that Vail has ruined the word epic.

I know it is overused, but I actually have a proper use for it now, and I just can't bring myself to use it.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> I'm pissed that Vail has ruined the word epic.


They haven’t ruined the words Fuck Vail Resorts Inc yet, have they?


----------



## Harvey

Did someone post this already? Seems super thin. What is the point?

Vail's POV seem like BS to me.









Who Gets to Ski?


The mountains are too crowded. The sport is too expensive. Several resorts are trying to fix a number of problems. How are they doing?




www.nytimes.com


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> Did someone post this already? Seems super thin. What is the point?
> 
> Vail's POV seem like BS to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who Gets to Ski?
> 
> 
> The mountains are too crowded. The sport is too expensive. Several resorts are trying to fix a number of problems. How are they doing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Paywall 



tirolski said:


> They haven’t ruined the words Fuck Vail Resorts Inc yet, have they?


Nor has Vuck Fail been ruined


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Did someone post this already? Seems super thin. What is the point?
> 
> Vail's POV seem like BS to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who Gets to Ski?
> 
> 
> The mountains are too crowded. The sport is too expensive. Several resorts are trying to fix a number of problems. How are they doing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Dumb article. The writer mixed the crowd issue with the unrelated low numbers of minority skiers.


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Dumb article. The writer mixed the crowd issue with the unrelated low numbers of minority skiers.


Sounds like "the times".


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> The new GM for Attitash, Brandon Swarz, is from the northeast. Is that a good sign? He wants his kids to grow up in NH.


If he knows how to get lifts to spin it would help. There’s snow.
This weekend's most recent lift shitshow wasn’t fun for the folks, allegedly.








Attitash Ski Resort


Attitash Ski Resort, Bartlett, NH. 28,485 likes · 48 talking about this · 76,498 were here. In the heart of NH's White Mountains | 68 trails, 9 lifts across two peaks | Mountain Coaster | Summer...




www.facebook.com


----------



## trackbiker

x10003q said:


> Dumb article. The writer mixed the crowd issue with the unrelated low numbers of minority skiers.


Fail keeps saying that they are making it more inclusive by the cheap passes. *Beginners don't buy season passes* and $200 for a lift ticket, plus rentals, and expensive food doesn't make it more inclusive and entice people to join the sport. I think the CEO missed that point in her logarithms.


----------



## trackbiker

tirolski said:


> If he knows how to get lifts to spin it would help. There’s snow.
> This weekend's most recent lift shitshow wasn’t fun for the folks, allegedly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Attitash Ski Resort
> 
> 
> Attitash Ski Resort, Bartlett, NH. 28,485 likes · 48 talking about this · 76,498 were here. In the heart of NH's White Mountains | 68 trails, 9 lifts across two peaks | Mountain Coaster | Summer...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com


That facebook page is pretty funny. Every Fail post makes it look like all champagne and roses and almost every customer post makes it look like vinegar and sh!t.


----------



## jasonwx

Don’t go!!
Stupid people 









Curbing Stowe ski resort’s traffic jams


On a beautiful, rare powder Saturday in Vermont, cars are backed up five to six miles away from the base of Stowe Mountain Resort.




www.wcax.com


----------



## D.B. Cooper

x10003q said:


> Dumb article. The writer mixed the crowd issue with the unrelated low numbers of minority skiers.


Agreed 100%. And V.R. properties seem like such a s*** show that I wouldn't consider visiting one. To the point that if it were a V.R. property or not ski, I think I would take not skiing. Unless someone sponsored the day.


----------



## witch hobble

Benny Profane said:


> Yeah, but at least it's experience in the hard work of doing many things on the hill, both large and small. He's not some finance nerd or soda pop marketer.


Right. Those are corporate officers, not on site managers. It would just make more sense if they had someone who had experience doing the many things on the hill, large and small……..on the actual hill where he is being put into service. Or someone from somewhere close enough by that there is some familiarity.


----------



## Harvey

Maybe if it ^^ was the latest craze in B school...


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Maybe if it ^^ was the latest craze in B school...


Yup, credit default swap school was more like the curriculum actually studied.


----------



## Benny Profane

witch hobble said:


> Right. Those are corporate officers, not on site managers. It would just make more sense if they had someone who had experience doing the many things on the hill, large and small……..on the actual hill where he is being put into service. Or someone from somewhere close enough by that there is some familiarity.


Listen to Stuart's interviews with Alterra managers and higher ups, and most actually have a long history around ski mountains. VPs actually bumped chairs, groomed, and taught in ski schools once.


----------



## witch hobble

Benny Profane said:


> Listen to Stuart's interviews with Alterra managers and higher ups, and most actually have a long history around ski mountains. VPs actually bumped chairs, groomed, and taught in ski schools once.


I’ll take your word for it. I try to keep my “ski media intake/actual skiing time” ratio within reason. There are literally 1000s of podcasts I would queue up before listening to an interview of executives of ski areas that I don’t ski at.

I do think there is a bigger story there in the NYT article. How to balance bringing new people into the sport while the current participants rant about crowded lift lines and access rd traffic. My take: sorry boomers…once you guys fully age out, the issue might resolve itself. Probably catastrophically for “the industry”.


----------



## Harvey

This is why Vail's approach isn't good for skiing. You need to encouraging the next gen, and all they are doing is skimming the cream created by others. "You need to" is all based on giving a shit about the future of skiing, and clearly they don't.

Some of the reaction to Vail will be clubiness. Gore on a powder day, almost got to be a passholder. Absolutely great for me, I'm loving it, but maybe not great for skiing, long term.


----------



## Benny Profane

witch hobble said:


> I’ll take your word for it. I try to keep my “ski media intake/actual skiing time” ratio within reason. There are literally 1000s of podcasts I would queue up before listening to an interview of executives of ski areas that I don’t ski at.
> 
> I do think there is a bigger story there in the NYT article. How to balance bringing new people into the sport while the current participants rant about crowded lift lines and access rd traffic. My take: sorry boomers…once you guys fully age out, the issue might resolve itself. Probably catastrophically for “the industry”.


Yeah, I can envision weekend only ski areas in a lot of places, because all you see during the week are old fuckers like me, and college kids screwing off. 

I was just out at Palisades Tahoe on MLK weekend (duh), looked around in the lift lines, and thought, damn, this is a young crowd. Tuesday rolls around, and it was, Oh, here's all the old people who stayed home during all that.


----------



## Brownski

Did you spend any time at Alpine? How about a Benny TR once in a while, bro?


----------



## Benny Profane

Yeah, sorry.

Six days at Mammoth, including one at June, then four at Palisades Tahoe, formerly known as Squaw/Alpine Meadows. All iKon.

It was all pretty much the same for snow, six feet of hardpack from those massive Xmas storms they had, and nothing since (even now). They're still in a bad drought, but, at least I had a surface to ski on. 40 degree days. 
Mammoth is awesome, great place I've always wanted to ski. Cool town with good food. June, eh, the ladies in the ski club liked. Nice scenery. Palisades Tahoe is really cool, massive, and will soon be connected by a gondola, mid station on top of KT22. Towers are up, corona slowed it down. Alpine Meadows will no longer exist soon as a separate entity, they are folding it all into one place.
Great place to ski. If only it wasn't so rock hard off piste.
Stayed in Truckee, twenty minutes north, good food.


----------



## MC2

Benny Profane said:


> . Palisades Tahoe is really cool, massive, and will soon be connected by a gondola, mid station on top of KT22. Towers are up, corona slowed it down.


those towers that have been up for like 10 years?


----------



## Peter

MC2 said:


> those towers that have been up for like 10 years?


No, the 30 brand new Leitner-Poma ones installed last summer.


----------



## Benny Profane

Yeah, they're all shiny and new. Somebody told me that was slowed by the chopper demand to fight last year's fires, which made sense.


----------



## jamesdeluxe

I'd love to know Broomfield's strategy for the ongoing avalanche of bad press. I wonder if they're just ignoring it at this point?









Vail Sold a Record Number of Passes. What Happened Next Was a Disaster.


Employees fear the corporate behemoth bit off more than it could chew, while pass holders cry foul about overcrowding and reduced hours




www.outsideonline.com


----------



## Benny Profane

Well, so far, Katz elbowed the new CEO out of the way to do that podcast interview with Stuart, and they replaced the manager at Stevens Pass. That's about it.


----------



## tirolski

[VIDEO] Snowboarder Dangles Then Falls From Chairlift at Vail Resort, CO - SnowBrains
					

So this happened yesterday at Vail… It’s just one more reason to always put the bar down on the lift. The guy fell at least 20 feet about 45 seconds after getting on the lift.




					snowbrains.com


----------



## D.B. Cooper

jamesdeluxe said:


> I'd love to know Broomfield's strategy for the ongoing avalanche of bad press. I wonder if they're just ignoring it at this point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Sold a Record Number of Passes. What Happened Next Was a Disaster.
> 
> 
> Employees fear the corporate behemoth bit off more than it could chew, while pass holders cry foul about overcrowding and reduced hours
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.outsideonline.com


In the piece above, there's a link to an Instagram page called "Epic Lift Lines." Beauty.

Vail seems to want the ORDA model, but worse.


----------



## Andy_ROC

D.B. Cooper said:


> In the piece above, there's a link to an Instagram page called "Epic Lift Lines." Beauty.
> 
> Vail seems to want the ORDA model, but worse.


Oh my God! I'd rather get a couple root canals than experience something like this!


----------



## jasonwx

Andy_ROC said:


> Oh my God! I'd rather get a couple root canals than experience something like this!
> 
> View attachment 12851


Without Novocain


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Without Novocain


By my neighbor


----------



## Andy_ROC

Campgottagopee said:


> By my neighbor


Using a Dewalt drill


----------



## Benny Profane

Is it safe?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Benny Profane said:


> Is it safe?


Safety is always third


----------



## jasonwx

Benny Profane said:


> Is it safe?


Marathon man
Dustin Hoffman 
Laurence Olivier


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Safety is always third


It’s 2nd in Safe & Effective.


----------



## raisingarizona

Benny Profane said:


> Yeah, they're all shiny and new. Somebody told me that was slowed by the chopper demand to fight last year's fires, which made sense.


If we don’t get a miracle March this summers fire season might make last years look trivial. It will probably still be bad even with a massive March. The ground out here is mega thirsty. 

The drought is about to get very real.




__





Weather West


California weather and climate perspectives



weatherwest.com













Feds tighten Colorado River flow at Glen Canyon Dam as ever-shrinking Lake Powell nears critical level


The U.S. Bureau of Reclamation announced Friday that, over the next four months, it plans to hold back 350,000 acre-feet of water that would normally flow through Grand Canyon into Lake Mead, which is also struggling with a receding shoreline in the face of a stubborn drought.




www.sltrib.com


----------



## jasonwx

raisingarizona said:


> If we don’t get a miracle March this summers fire season might make last years look trivial. It will probably still be bad even with a massive March. The ground out here is mega thirsty.
> 
> The drought is about to get very real.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weather West
> 
> 
> California weather and climate perspectives
> 
> 
> 
> weatherwest.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feds tighten Colorado River flow at Glen Canyon Dam as ever-shrinking Lake Powell nears critical level
> 
> 
> The U.S. Bureau of Reclamation announced Friday that, over the next four months, it plans to hold back 350,000 acre-feet of water that would normally flow through Grand Canyon into Lake Mead, which is also struggling with a receding shoreline in the face of a stubborn drought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sltrib.com


I have been screaming this for all winter
The west needs the snow not the east. 100 million pp are in big trouble


----------



## raisingarizona

jasonwx said:


> I have been screaming this for all winter
> The west needs the snow not the east. 100 million pp are in big trouble


It’s insane. Driving around Phoenix right now, it’s like none of this is happening. Grasses are green, water features are blasting, pools are full and if you talk to people that have just moved here their response is, “drought? I didn’t know anything about that?”.

It has a Don’t Look Up vibe to it but I’m not laughing.


----------



## raisingarizona

jasonwx said:


> I have been screaming this for all winter
> The west needs the snow not the east. 100 million pp are in big trouble


It’s ground zero as far as visible affects but it’s a telltale that we are all in big trouble.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> If we don’t get a miracle March this summers fire season might make last years look trivial. It will probably still be bad even with a massive March. The ground out here is mega thirsty.
> 
> The drought is about to get very real.


Latest map before the storm that came up thru here.
Maine even had some burnt orange color toit. That may have changed.




__





Current Map | U.S. Drought Monitor







droughtmonitor.unl.edu


----------



## jamesdeluxe

Hah, I asked on a different forum about this pic that @Andy_ROC reposted, and it's allegedly from a commercial that's been playing during the Olympics TV coverage? If so, pretty brilliant how someone draped the Epic logo over it.


----------



## DomB

Andy_ROC said:


> Oh my God! I'd rather get a couple root canals than experience something like this!
> 
> View attachment 12851


Is this from an actual Vail place this year? How do you even turn or ski?


----------



## tirolski

How to ya forget yer in the resort business when ya’ve sold Pepsi and/or credit default swaps?








Council members talk Vail’s relationship with Vail Resorts at retreat


The Vail Town Council does a lot of talking, but the group every couple of years takes some time to talk and think.




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> How to ya forget yer in the resort business when ya’ve sold Pepsi and/or credit default swaps?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Council members talk Vail’s relationship with Vail Resorts at retreat
> 
> 
> The Vail Town Council does a lot of talking, but the group every couple of years takes some time to talk and think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com



Somebody forgot to send a few envelopes of cash to the local politicians. This might be a public reminder.

But, when Vail loses Vail, hoo boy.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Somebody forgot to send a few envelopes of cash to the local politicians. This might be a public reminder.
> 
> But, when Vail loses Vail, hoo boy.


A lot of locals there have more than enough money. 
They just want their playground nice. 
Don’t blame 'em.


----------



## SIAWOL

jamesdeluxe said:


> Hah, I asked on a different forum about this pic that @Andy_ROC reposted, and it's allegedly from a commercial that's been playing during the Olympics TV coverage? If so, pretty brilliant how someone draped the Epic logo over it.


my daughter saw one of these adds and deadpan said "Sunway on MLK weekend".....


----------



## tirolski

Hamburger wrote a story about cold $9 hotdogs at Park City among other complaints.








Park City criticism of PCMR, Vail Resorts epitomized by story of a cold, $9 hot dog


A comment to Park City leaders about a hot dog purchased at Park City Mountain Resort has suddenly become emblematic amid an intense wave of criticism about the operations at PCMR directed at the resort and its owner, Colorado-based Vail Resorts.




www.parkrecord.com


----------



## jimmypete

Does anyone have a real fact about what Vail pays it's snow makers, lifties, and groomers in the North East? I hear all types of rumors,


----------



## tirolski

Not enough.


----------



## Harvey

Glass Door says $11-14/hr






Salary: Snowmaker in Vail


The average salary for a Snowmaker is $45,344 per year in Vail. Click here to see the total pay, recent salaries shared and more!




www.glassdoor.com


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> Hamburger wrote a story about cold $9 hotdogs at Park City among other complaints.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Park City criticism of PCMR, Vail Resorts epitomized by story of a cold, $9 hot dog
> 
> 
> A comment to Park City leaders about a hot dog purchased at Park City Mountain Resort has suddenly become emblematic amid an intense wave of criticism about the operations at PCMR directed at the resort and its owner, Colorado-based Vail Resorts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.parkrecord.com


I’m not a fan of Vail and I find it kind of funny when people bitch about them, but why is this guy crying about his mid mountain hotdog? Did he really expect a different result? What is the city council supposed to do about it? Pass a hot wiener law? Get real.


----------



## Andy_ROC

Ripitz said:


> I’m not a fan of Vail and I find it kind of funny when people bitch about them, but why is this guy crying about his mid mountain hotdog? Did he really expect a different result? What is the city council supposed to do about it? Pass a hot wiener law? Get real.


The hotdog symbolizes the endemic of incompetence sweeping VR leadership and operations. I actually think the hotdog is a funny euphemism.

Vail takes customer money and does not provide a decent product/service in return. Overall Vail is failing its customers and the communities in which they operate. It's incompetence and GREED that they didn't think through the consequences of selling 76% more passes nor have an operational plan to deal with it. The labor shortage has become a scapegoat. They know they are short on labor so modify operations--- simplify the menu, don't serve hot foods etc. Town council is only the start. VR will hopefully get beat up pretty good at the state, federal and courts.


----------



## Harvey

Speculation: a beating for the skiings biggest (?) company isn't necessary good for skiing. Maybe it is. If you think Vail is cancer then I guess you want them gone, total number of viable ski areas be damned?


----------



## Brownski

Maybe worth considering since Toggenburg was done in by its fellow indies. Of course Vail has curtailed operations at some of its smaller acquisitions. Do we think they won’t axe them completely if they perceive that to be in their interest?


----------



## Harvey

Yea. Somehow I think we are just bystanders. I guess we can do our part by investing in the Indies.

I still think fixed grip chairs are the solution. They should all be Hall's too. 🤠


----------



## saratogahalfday

tirolski said:


> Hamburger wrote a story about cold $9 hotdogs at Park City among other complaints.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Park City criticism of PCMR, Vail Resorts epitomized by story of a cold, $9 hot dog
> 
> 
> A comment to Park City leaders about a hot dog purchased at Park City Mountain Resort has suddenly become emblematic amid an intense wave of criticism about the operations at PCMR directed at the resort and its owner, Colorado-based Vail Resorts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.parkrecord.com


There's an easy solution to that: bring your own everything. I know I do.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Hamburger wrote a story about cold $9 hotdogs at Park City among other complaints.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Park City criticism of PCMR, Vail Resorts epitomized by story of a cold, $9 hot dog
> 
> 
> A comment to Park City leaders about a hot dog purchased at Park City Mountain Resort has suddenly become emblematic amid an intense wave of criticism about the operations at PCMR directed at the resort and its owner, Colorado-based Vail Resorts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.parkrecord.com


I'm more surprised the bun was toasted than anything


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> Speculation: a beating for the skiings biggest (?) company isn't necessary good for skiing. Maybe it is. If you think Vail is cancer then I guess you want them gone, total number of viable ski areas be damned?


That's pretty big speculation Harv! I don't want Vail gone, I want them held accountable! I want management to feel the heat and make them really uncomfortable. They took in a lot of extra money which gave shareholders and executives a great payday, all the while they took the customer's money and delivered poor service. Not sure if anyone is okay with this nor how this could be good for the ski industry. 

Maybe localities will look harder at the permits granted. Perhaps grant them to others instead or add conditions before renewal. Operating on federal lands (our land) maybe comes under more scrutiny and forces changes. Maybe Vail needs to make good and issue partial refunds to pass holders for this years debacle. Maybe next year they need to reduce the number of passes sold-- whether it be by increasing Epic pass prices or capping ticket sales or both. Maybe they should limit the number of daily skiers at a given mountain by requiring reservations. Until there's enough pressure exerted on them they'll just keep cashing bonus checks while screwing the customer. 

The writing is on the wall. A big monopoly is forming that will squeeze out the little mountains. Once that happens the little guy will be forced to sell or go out of business. As Vail's competition dwindles a new standard of poor service will be the only choice.


----------



## Andy_ROC

saratogahalfday said:


> There's an easy solution to that: bring your own everything. I know I do.


Same here! I'm skiing not there to eat. I carry some protein bars, Gu energy and some water. Food and beers are for afterward when the day is done


----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> That's pretty big speculation Harv!


Not calling you out, just wondering what to root for.


----------



## Ripitz

Just give us Wildcat back damnit!


----------



## Andy_ROC

Harvey said:


> Not calling you out, just wondering what to root for.


The part of Vail I feel is a cancer is the monopoly being formed. Vail fattens up their cash position by collecting increased revenue and not delivering. The balance sheet gets stronger and increases their ability to gobble up more mountains or engage in predatory pricing to put other mountains out of business... thus the monster just continues to grow.


----------



## Harvey

Andy_ROC said:


> The part of Vail I feel is a cancer is the monopoly being formed. Vail fattens up their cash position by collecting increased revenue and not delivering. The balance sheet gets stronger and increases their ability to gobble up more mountains or engage in predatory pricing to put other mountains out of business... thus the monster just continues to grow.



For that^^ cancer is a pretty solid analogy.


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm more surprised the bun was toasted than anything


That is impressive


----------



## not2brite

If they keep delivering poor service the entire mess will sort itself out. It always does. They will have to practically give away passes and that is not sustainable.


----------



## Harvey

not2brite said:


> If they keep delivering poor service the entire mess will sort itself out. It always does. They will have to practically give away passes and that is not sustainable.


If it's only a good value for weekday skiers, Epic is in trouble.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> That is impressive


I'm surprised Jason didn't pick up on that. He's the damn chef.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm more surprised the bun was toasted than anything


It looked to be tender too,
but a bit too much on the red side for my palate..


----------



## Ripitz

That’s a good sized dog too. I’m surprised they are selling them for only $9. I would expect it to be twice that at mid mountain. If it takes 42 minutes to get one they should just sell them on the lift lines.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> That’s a good sized dog too. I’m surprised they are selling them for only $9. I would expect it to be twice that at mid mountain. If it takes 42 minutes to get one they should just sell them on the lift lines.


They serve em cold anyway.
Give folks something to eat waitin for the lift.
And if it drops just run yer ski over the meat for a quick wax.
Local dogs, cats and birds would be happy cleaning up so less labor.


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> I'm surprised Jason didn't pick up on that. He's the damn chef.


Just saw this
That is a butt raw hot dog and stale bun. 
Not bad for 9$


----------



## Temp6

A man named Hamburger's hot dog and a hot weiner law. The Vail resorts narrative has officially gone off the rails now. I'm very curious to see if this ruin's the Ikon skiers' pretty picture next year with large amounts of customers jumping ship.


----------



## Harvey

Anybody... why did Katz resign as CEO and become a member of the board?

What was the reason given? What was the real reason?


----------



## NYSkiBlog

PSA:



https://epicpass.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/4411068445723-Can-I-opt-out-of-Auto-Renew-



Credit to Kendo on AZ


----------



## tirolski

Phil Pug with a plea to VP and COO @ Vail
He was nice about it.


----------



## ScottySkis

Anti fuck Vail Aspen to give more money to employees it's a good start.








Aspen Skiing Co. Announces Surprise $3/hr Raise For All Employees


Aspen Skiing Co. announced a $3/hr raise for all hourly and salary staff beginning Sunday, February 13th. The raise represents a $12 million dollar investment, and with the combination of the Novem…




unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## MarzNC

saratogahalfday said:


> There's an easy solution to that: bring your own everything. I know I do.


How many ski areas do you think could survive if all the customers never spent a dime on Food & Beverage? I'm thinking about not just destination ski resorts, but also small mountains. There needs to be a way to make a profit. Lift tickets and season passes might cover expenses but that doesn't leave much for long term capital projects or enough of a profit that makes a bank feel comfortable lending money for a new lift or lodge renovation. Losing F&B revenue in 2020-21 was a big deal for all ski areas/resorts, even those that actually had plenty of people on the slopes.

Becoming a 4-season resort, if not already, is also required for business survival. The biggest advantage that the southeast ski areas have is that most were started as 4-season resorts. They make enough money during the summer season to have the financial resources to make improvements over a decade or two for the slopes that are only open for about 3 months. That wasn't true of VR locations in the west before about 2012 because of Forest Service rules for summer operations.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> Anybody... why did Katz resign as CEO and become a member of the board?
> 
> What was the reason given? What was the real reason?


Good question. Rob Katz is 53. He's still the one doing interviews, not the new CEO. He's not really an operations guy. He didn't want the job of CEO to start with.

Way too soon in this transition period for the entire industry to guess how things will shake out in the next year or two. Does feel like the emphasis on spending big bucks on new lifts might not be the best approach for the post-pandemic period.


----------



## Flying Z

As for the resort food, if the prices were a bit more reasonable , people would buy more instead of complaining and feeling ripped off. Here is made river beating Vail at the hot dog game by $3.


----------



## MarzNC

Flying Z said:


> As for the resort food, if the prices were a bit more reasonable , people would buy more instead of complaining and feeling ripped off.


Conversely, if the price is relatively high but the food is good . . . and hot . . . and delivered with a smile, then people don't complain either. The comparison in my head is from Taos last week. There aren't too many food options at the main base. A combination of resort-owned food service and a few independent food options. Locals bring their own food. Some travelers staying slopeside don't buy lunch everyday.

I had a hot dog off the grill on the St. B porch that was $8. No line at noon. Dog was hot.

For the first lunch my ski buddy noted that buying a burger outside was $13 or $16 indoors (could eat indoors if had proof of vaccination, plenty of seats indoors and outdoors). I opted for the big square of fresh pizza for $5 that I took to eat on the porch with tables where my friends were already at a table.

The independent ice cream and smoothie shop was charging $7 for a single scoop (big, homemade) and $8 for a smoothie. Didn't feel like a ripoff at all.


----------



## tirolski

__





SEC.gov | SEC Charges Missouri Residents with Insider Trading







www.sec.gov


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SEC.gov | SEC Charges Missouri Residents with Insider Trading
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sec.gov


Classic SEC - going after little fish while the big fish continue to eat. A whole 2500 shares and they made 14k.


----------



## tirolski

Betty wasn’t a snowmaker, but:
"_Beth Mueller, age 55, resides in Wildwood, Missouri, was Peak Resorts’ senior director of corporate reporting before the merger, and *continued to serve as* *Vail’s senior director of corporate reporting until retiring from the company in October 2020.* Her husband was a Peak Resorts senior executive."_
*emphasis* added
Sometimes folks don’t catch all the fish at once, big or small.


----------



## tirolski

__





Vail’s handling of state-owned Mount Sunapee stirs complaints


NEWBURY – Gov. Chris Sununu said his administration is working with Vail Corporation to produce a better customer experience at state-owned Mount Sunapee. High volume traffic with skiers using Route 103 on weekend mornings and long lift lines at the resort have caused complaints that prompted...




www.nashuatelegraph.com


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Wall Street analysts expect Vail Resorts to raise wages


A common theme has been pointed out among several analysts covering Vail Resorts stock: The company’s workers are likely to be paid more next season.




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## Benny Profane

There are going to be some real whoppers of bad stories coming out of the northeast Epic mountains this holiday weekend, after an inch or two of 50 degree rain and wind and then a total refreeze just in time for Saturday morning. Whoo boy.


----------



## jasonwx

Only the mentally I’ll would ski this weekend

Yep sitting in traffic on the palisades pkwy at 430am 
Gets me in a f’d up mood


----------



## saratogahalfday

Benny Profane said:


> There are going to be some real whoppers of bad stories coming out of the northeast Epic mountains this holiday weekend, after an inch or two of 50 degree rain and wind and then a total refreeze just in time for Saturday morning. Whoo boy.


Bad stories, and bad accidents. Ski Patrol will be busy.


----------



## tirolski

Could be entertaining coming on the eve of the Ides of March, just saying.




__





Vail Resorts Announces Fiscal 2022 Second Quarter Earnings Release Date | Vail Resorts, Inc.


The Investor Relations website contains information about Vail Resorts, Inc.'s business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.



investors.vailresorts.com


----------



## tirolski

Local letters bitchin bout boarders and yellowjackets.








Letter: Some thoughts on the Vail experience


I agree with the comments in Barry Gersick’s recent letter. I have also been coming to Vail for many years and have had the same experience this year that he has. The large number of…




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## witch hobble




----------



## witch hobble

If Vail bought a beach:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CaaNgKkjTpN/


----------



## tirolski

Didn’t know where to put this article so figured it might fit here.








Alterra Mountain Company Announces Largest Single Year Investment of $344 Million for Capital Improvements


DENVER--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Feb 28, 2022--




www.valdostadailytimes.com


----------



## tirolski

Letter: Too many close calls on the mountain


This letter is directed to Vail Resorts, as I believe company officials are the ones that caused the problem and the only ones that can reverse the trend. There are too many people on the…




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## tirolski

Stu wrote a piece about Ikon’s new additions and choices.
Seems Sun Valley and Snow Basin both said F you ta Vail Resorts Inc.








Ikon Pass Adds Snowbasin, Sun Valley, Chamonix for 2022-23 Season, Drops Crystal from Unlimited Tier on Full Ikon Pass, Alta and Deer Valley Leave Base Pass for Base Plus


Snowbasin and Sun Valley Exit Epic Pass, will also join Mountain Collective




www.stormskiing.com


----------



## tirolski

Vail’s town manager is saying sayonara and going to Telluride.
Does that tell-ya-somethin?








Vail Town Manager Robson leaving for job in Telluride


Vail Town Manager Scott Robson has notified the Town Council and staff of his intention to leave the organization effective the first week of April to assume a similar role with Telluride.




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## tirolski

In more local UpState VailFail news.








Longer lines, less time skiing at Hunter: complaints about Vail Resorts snowball


Local skiers are unhappy with how Hunter Mountain’s new owner Vail Resorts is managing...




www.timesunion.com


----------



## tirolski

The International Ski History Association folks published a piece.
If mamma ain’t happy ain’t nobody happy.




__





Skiers in Revolt | International Skiing History Association


Can Vail Resorts improve employee and customer relations? By Seth Masia From the January-February 2022 issue (Posted February 12, 2022) Overcrowding and staff shortages at ski resorts first attracted the attention of local and online media at the end of 2021, then in January spread to...




www.skiinghistory.org


----------



## Benny Profane

That was very well written.


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> The International Ski History Association folks published a piece.
> If mamma ain’t happy ain’t nobody happy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skiers in Revolt | International Skiing History Association
> 
> 
> Can Vail Resorts improve employee and customer relations? By Seth Masia From the January-February 2022 issue (Posted February 12, 2022) Overcrowding and staff shortages at ski resorts first attracted the attention of local and online media at the end of 2021, then in January spread to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.skiinghistory.org


Really well written article--- thanks for posting this stuff.
VR could use the ill gotten cash they got from selling 76% more passes and not providing service in order to buy more mountains and expand their monopoly. Pretty nefarious if that happens. As the author said, Wall Street doesn't care about guest experience or employee satisfaction so long as they get their return. VUCKFAIL!


----------



## tirolski

Sounds different than Stu’s sit-down with MTN’s chairman.

"_ *Favorite piece of ski gear*: As an ex-lift mechanic, he loves his "old pair of ski pants with lift grease that are baby-s**t brown_.”"









Alterra Mountain CEO Rusty Gregory talks the ski season and "pinch points"


The ski season is going "shockingly" well for Alterra Mountain, Denver-based CEO Rusty Gregory says.




www.axios.com


----------



## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> The International Ski History Association folks published a piece.
> If mamma ain’t happy ain’t nobody happy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skiers in Revolt | International Skiing History Association
> 
> 
> Can Vail Resorts improve employee and customer relations? By Seth Masia From the January-February 2022 issue (Posted February 12, 2022) Overcrowding and staff shortages at ski resorts first attracted the attention of local and online media at the end of 2021, then in January spread to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.skiinghistory.org


The saddest thing about that article is the comment at the end. The guy who is an Epic pass holder, instructor and investor says he has had the last laugh because he had a 346% gain on his investment with Vail stock. This is the world we live in. I’d rather have no money and go XC skiing.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> The saddest thing about that article is the comment at the end. The guy who is an Epic pass holder, instructor and investor says he has had the last laugh because he had a 346% gain on his investment with Vail stock. This is the world we live in. I’d rather have no money and go XC skiing.


He just saw the live shitshow as an employee and sold. Even dogs get thrown a bone once in a while.


----------



## Tjf1967

Ripitz said:


> The saddest thing about that article is the comment at the end. The guy who is an Epic pass holder, instructor and investor says he has had the last laugh because he had a 346% gain on his investment with Vail stock. This is the world we live in. I’d rather have no money and go XC skiing.


What's wrong with both?


----------



## Harvey

So Vail is announcing all these extended seasons. 

Seem to be overlooking a few details, like weather and lack of snowmaking.


----------



## tirolski

No Traffic - No Crowds | Simple Skiing


It doesn't need to be far, crowded, risky or costly. We just made it that way. Ski traffic and crowds are not required. Rediscover simple skiing.




www.simpleskiing.com


----------



## MarzNC

March 9, 2022








Vail Resorts Extends 2021/22 Winter Season At Seven Resorts


Vail Resorts Extends 2021/22 Winter Season At Seven Resorts




www.snowindustrynews.com




" . . .
_Planned season extensions (as snow conditions and weather permit), include: _

_Vail Mountain: Open until May 1 (previously April 24)_
_Kirkwood: Open until May 1 (previously April 10)_
_Heavenly: Open until April 24 (previously April 17)_
_Stevens Pass: Open until May 1 (previously April 17)_
_Hunter: Open until April 10 (previously April 3) _
_Mount Snow: Carinthia open until April 24 (previously April 17)_
_ Boston Mills: Open until March 20 (previously March 13) _
_In addition to these season extensions, Vail Resorts is pleased to offer skiing and riding well into May at Whistler Blackcomb in British Columbia (scheduled to stay open until May 23) and Breckenridge in Colorado (scheduled to stay open through Memorial Day, May 30). While pass holders and all guests will have more time on the mountains, they should be aware that due to late spring conditions, open terrain may be reduced._


----------



## Brownski

Just saw that Vail is implementing a $20/hr minimum- &21 for patrollers, mechanics and CDLs


----------



## MarzNC

Brownski said:


> Just saw that Vail is implementing a $20/hr minimum- &21 for patrollers, mechanics and CDLs











Vail Resorts to raise minimum wage to $20 per hour


Vail Resorts on Monday announced the company will be increasing its minimum wage to $20 per hour for the 2022/2023 North American ski season.




www.vaildaily.com




_" . . .
The company made the announcement in a press release on Monday in advance of the company’s 2022 second quarter earnings call.

“The company will also be making a substantial investment in its human resource department to support a return to full staffing and deliver a better employee experience,” according to the release. “The increase in wages and the return to normal staffing levels will represent an approximately $175 million increase in expected labor expense in fiscal 2023 compared to fiscal 2022 expected labor expense.”"_


----------



## Low Angle Life

Brownski said:


> Just saw that Vail is implementing a $20/hr minimum- &21 for patrollers, mechanics and CDLs


If they really want to retain patrol staff they should bring back acid Tuesdays...


----------



## tirolski

Here’s the transcript of their recent earnings call.








Vail Resorts, Inc. (MTN) CEO Kirsten Lynch on Q2 2022 Results - Earnings Call Transcript


Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE:NYSE:MTN) Q2 2022 Results Conference Call March 14, 2022 05:00 PM ET Company Participants Kirsten Lynch - CEO Michael Barkin - CFO Conference Call Participants...




seekingalpha.com




The letters “snow" were used 5 times.
Disney might use it more as they have Snow White and her seven little friends.


----------



## jasonwx

Brownski said:


> Just saw that Vail is implementing a $20/hr minimum- &21 for patrollers, mechanics and CDLs


Sounds well and good
I would bet the farm they cut hours


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Here’s the transcript of their recent earnings call.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503492667178565634


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Just saw that Vail is implementing a $20/hr minimum- &21 for patrollers, mechanics and CDLs



The whole package really surprised me.


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Sounds well and good
> I would bet the farm they cut hours


Do you think they have enough employees to do that?


----------



## jasonwx

Campgottagopee said:


> Do you think they have enough employees to do that?


Never underestimate corporate greed


----------



## Campgottagopee

jasonwx said:


> Never underestimate corporate greed


I completely understand that. Makes sense. I keep forgetting that customer service isn't part of their plan.


----------



## jasonwx

I guarantee at the daily meeting, they hold hands and chant stock price , stock price ….


----------



## tirolski

jasonwx said:


> I guarantee at the daily meeting, they hold hands and chant stock price , stock price ….


Yup and put some salaried project managers on the analytics of ski bums while the local Mickey D’s still pay more.

_"Will the 2022-3 ski season be a winter of spreading out, where small and independent resorts take skiing days away from the big boys?"








Is the Ski Bum Dream Over? - Rad Season


Has the ski bum dream gone? From overpriced housing and low wages, ski resorts are churning through more employees every season.




radseason.com




_


----------



## trackbiker

jasonwx said:


> Sounds well and good
> I would bet the farm they cut hours


I skied at Jack Frost this past Sunday because i had one epic ticket from a 2-pack to use. They now open at 9:00 instead of 8:00. They also cut hours at Big Boulder. They had 3 of 7 lifts from the bottom running. I asked a liftie if they were going to open more lifts as the lines started growing. He told me they weren't expecting that many people. They weren't expecting that many people a day after it snowed? I always thought ski areas would rather have snow in people's back yards than on the slopes because it brought the people out. I'm sure all the other Pocono areas had all of their lifts running.


----------



## jasonwx

The up coming weather pattern is vails wet dream
Warm and rainy


----------



## tirolski

trackbiker said:


> I skied at Jack Frost this past Sunday because i had one epic ticket from a 2-pack to use. They now open at 9:00 instead of 8:00. They also cut hours at Big Boulder. They had 3 of 7 lifts from the bottom running. I asked a liftie if they were going to open more lifts as the lines started growing. He told me they weren't expecting that many people. They weren't expecting that many people a day after it snowed? I always thought ski areas would rather have snow in people's back yards than on the slopes because it brought the people out. I'm sure all the other Pocono areas had all of their lifts running.


Vail Resorts Inc doesn’t like to use the word snow.
Their algorithms don’t ski yet.


----------



## tirolski

A Hoosier and Stu talk Indiana skiing.


----------



## jimmypete

Saw they were blowing snow at Hunter late this Sunday, had to look twice to believe it as I drove up past the mountain. Next day went up to 50 degrees.


----------



## tirolski

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504476013757038596


----------



## tirolski

This place sounds to be a whole lot more fun than any of Vail’s shitshows.








Skiing the Steep and Deep for Cheap - Flathead Beacon


The northern foothills of the Bear Paw Mountains swung into view just outside of Rudyard and I snapped to attention, scanning the straw-colored horizon for evidence of snow. I squirmed in the driver’s seat, wondering if I’d misunderstood the ski report or, more likely, set unrealistic...



flatheadbeacon.com


----------



## tirolski

NY folks should consider themselves lucky🍀 Fail only bought one resort in the state, so far.








Valley of frustration: Vail needs a major rebound next season at Wildcat and Attitash - New England Ski Journal


Vail’s offseason challenge isn’t to gobble up more resorts in order to sell even more Epic Passes, it’s about how to fix its dysfunction.




www.skijournal.com





“_North Conway has become a Vail town,” he said. “And I hate that._”


----------



## tirolski

Vail Resorts Inc announced changes (and/or lack thereof) to their Epic pass today.
MTN stock dropped 3.42% while NYSE composite went up 0.78%.
Vuck Fail.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

tirolski said:


> “_North Conway has become a Vail town,” he said. “And I hate that._”


Man - I hope Hunter/Tannersville becomes a "Vail town". Any kind of town would be awesome fro the Hunter Village haha... 
My house value has skyrocketed already. Businesses are starting up. 
It's kind of awesome. I'm hoping Vail turns the mountain antics around.


----------



## jimmypete

agree , Hunter especially , the town has gone down precipitously since it's heyday in the late 60's and 70's , one big factor was Jersey and Connecticut's drinking age was 21 while New York's was 18, kids from the two states would flock to Hunter to ski and hit the bars on Friday, Saturday and after skiing on Sunday. First for a while Jersey lowered the drinking age which hurt, then all states went to 21 [Louisiana tried hold out for a while] the bars and the restaurants didn't have the demand. Meanwhile the baby boomers got older and married, plane travel cheaper, all these were factors. Drive into Hunter and Tannersville and you can see dead hulks of bars that used to be full every weekend in the Winter. 
Vail has the economic stability to help as opposed to the Slutsky's and Peaks. Hopefully it will get it's act together and realize what an asset Hunter is. Peaks did try with the North Side, but Vail has the bucks to really develop the West Side.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

You're correct on all accounts - I saw it happen. I miss my old places BUT I do love the newer restaurants(Jessies and Tabla come to mind). 

We don't need the ski area to help us. We just need people - which we have now.
And new people! We are working to make our town healthy and inclusive to all!


----------



## SayvilleSteve

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why they don't blow tons of snow on West Way and make that a signature trail. Annapurna is great too, but I get leaving that one natural--the only problem is that Hunter only gets enough natural snow to open it a few days a year.


----------



## Harvey

SayvilleSteve said:


> For the life of me, I cannot figure out why they don't blow tons of snow on West Way and make that a signature trail.


Cost?

Let's say it's $200k. Maybe they don't think they'd get any or enough additional business to justify the cost.

Are you a passholder? Would you consider not renewing because of this?

If you aren't a passholder would you become one if they committed to blowing it? Is there enough support for the idea to make it pay?

The only reason most ski areas operate after Presidents Day is to appeal to passholders and build the brand. There's is no money to be made. But they do it because they've determined in the long run it would hurt them, if they didn't.


----------



## Harvey

From @180 who knows...

"The pipes are all broken and rusted. The removed more than half the towers this past summer and placed them at other locations on the West Side. The trail is too wide and the snow never stayed. Very costly to run, too wide. Vail does not care about that trail except for natural snow. They are wisely letting half of it grow back again."


----------



## SayvilleSteve

Harvey said:


> Are you a passholder? Would you consider not renewing because of this?
> 
> If you aren't a passholder would you become one if they committed to blowing it? Is there enough support for the idea to make it pay?



I actually was a pass holder this year and last year. I am not renewing next year and a big reason is that I simply don't get there enough to justify a pass. Why don't I get there? They have ignored the mountain's best terrain (Hunter West) for the past few years and you can only ski the exact same trail with different names (Minya Konka, Hellgate, East Side Drive, The Cliff, Jimmy Huega, etc) so many times.

You mention cost. It surely costs less to blow snow on West Way than it did to install a high-speed six-passenger lift and carve new trails on the icy boondoggle that is Hunter North. Not only is that area useless, it ruined what was a really fun trail (Way Out). I get that they wanted to disperse crowds away from the Kaatskill Flyer, but the expansion did nothing to achieve that. As the trails ended up being too hard--they were originally blue until a few fatalities--because of the pitch and conditions. Now Hunter West stands without snow and only intermittently runs a perfectly good lift while the Fuck Vail crowd snaps ridiculous liftline pictures of the Flyer.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

Harvey said:


> From @180 who knows...
> 
> "The pipes are all broken and rusted. The removed more than half the towers this past summer and placed them at other locations on the West Side. The trail is too wide and the snow never stayed. Very costly to run, too wide. Vail does not care about that trail except for natural snow. They are wisely letting half of it grow back again."



You posted this while I was responding above. Interesting to know, but my point on cost of snowmaking vs a new (bad) pod still stands.


----------



## MarzNC

Managers who have spent most of their career in the ski industry in the Rockies are probably not used to the concept of starting snowmaking in November and then continuing into early March. As compared to someone who has spent their career in the northeast. Someone who has been working in the southeast knows that automating existing snowguns, staying on top of potential pipe and water supply issues, and adding firepower with new and improved fan guns is the only way to stay open in the short and long run. Only way there has been skiing since the 1960s in the southeast is because snowmaking technology has continued to improve.

My sense is that top to bottom snowmaking at destination resorts in the west is relatively new. Used to be snowguns only went up to mid-mountain and/or covered the easiest blue route down from the top of a lift to a high point. Idea was to keep beginners and intermediates happy in December. Perhaps even open a few slopes for the Thanksgiving weekend to generate some buzz. Snowmaking staff went on to other jobs by early January. Or went home if they flew in from New Zealand or Australia.


----------



## da-bum

DMC_Hunter said:


> Man - I hope Hunter/Tannersville becomes a "Vail town". Any kind of town would be awesome fro the Hunter Village haha...
> My house value has skyrocketed already. Businesses are starting up.
> It's kind of awesome. I'm hoping Vail turns the mountain antics around.


I think reviving the local ski town is opposite of Vail's objective. Their idea was always to create destinations where your whole experience is Vail affiliated. They have stopped promoting local places to stay, or have those places offer discounts with a seasons pass, or provide discount lift tickets to them that would have incentivized people to stay there. Same with local eating establishments.

I don't mind the North, as it provide relatively quick access to the blacks away from the crowds of the frontside. Its just the infrequent grooming that almost always leave one of the black run icy. Doing Claire always involved traversing the steep narrows of upper Claire, which is usually icy and clogged with people. Westway had the most direct way straight to the steeps, but its never open so its moot.


----------



## Harvey

SayvilleSteve said:


> For the life of me, I cannot figure out why they don't blow tons of snow on West Way



I threw this question out to a closed? FB group I am in for Hunter skiers.

Another view point:


> "Decades ago when the trail was first opened it was a disaster, people would reach the crest, fall, lose a ski and slide at high rates of speed, straight down to the skiers left and into the woods at the bottom of the trail. I rode the Y lift, which was the old F lift the day it opened, had to turn away and not watch, faces ripped off, bones broken, a woman with family watched her rag doll passed out all the way into down and into the woods, this wasn't one or two people it was a lot, a bunch of us went in to talk with Orville about putting up fencing, catch nets, and hay bales to prevent the absolute carnage we witnessed, it was really bad. The trail has my full respect because of what I saw happen opening day. If the conditions were good, good powdery snowmaking on day 1 it was good, otherwise unless the rare snowstorm happened, it was carnage. My guess is perhaps removing that trail from play eliminated lots of litigation type issues. It's an effort to maintain, I only saw it groomed top to bottom once, that must have been an effort. They had to block off the entrance and add the YOU BETTER BE AN EXPERT sign, in hopes that would keep some people off it that didn't belong there. It's a great trail that demands your full respect no matter how good an expert you call yourself because if you make a mistake you're going all the way and hitting the fence they put up."


and another:



> "It would be easy enough to just say they don't make snow on Westway because Vail doesn't want to spend the money.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I do think Vail and Epic is the worst thing to ever happen to Hunter. They don't have a clue how to run a northeast ski resort.
> 
> All that being said, it was not a trail that Peak chose to make snow on in recent years either. It simply requires too much snow, which gets blown off very easily.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the pipes being old or unusable. They can make snow on Westway any time they want. After they installed the six-pack on the main face, they moved the quad to Hunter West and took out the old chairs there. Since the quad ran over Westway, they blew snow on it the first year the quad was open to showcase it. But they only did that for one year. Clearly they realized it wasn't worth it.
> 
> It is what it is with Westway. You get to enjoy it when you get enough natural."


----------



## jimmypete

Vail didn't do Hunter North Peaks did, they are fun trails but hampered by being relatively short, but the is the Catskills


----------



## jimmypete

Harvey said:


> From @180 who knows...
> 
> "The pipes are all broken and rusted. The removed more than half the towers this past summer and placed them at other locations on the West Side. The trail is too wide and the snow never stayed. Very costly to run, too wide. Vail does not care about that trail except for natural snow. They are wisely letting half of it grow back again."


I am sure that Vail could figure out some way with plantings and snow fences and judicious cuts to bring back West Way and cover it with blown snow, let it switch back a little down the mountain, wouldn't be cheap but oh what a decent run there would do for the mountain, take pressure off of the front.Hunter has some very good but aggressive skiers when they a get funneled all the time to the front or Northside, it makes for a crappy time for everybody. Listen up Vail, you need to spend money to make money.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

jimmypete said:


> Hunter has some very good but aggressive skiers


That, and the intel Harvey got about the steepness, is probably the main reason it's not open. Just a shame since it (and Annapurna and Clair's) are such great trails and the Hunter North expansion was such a disappointment. Great place to park, not so great to ski!


----------



## x10003q

You have to love a good, apocryphal tale about carnage on Westway (44). 
"rode the Y lift, which was the old F lift the day it opened, *had to turn away and not watch, faces ripped off, bones broken, a woman with family watched her rag doll passed out all the way into down and into the woods*, this wasn't one or two people it was a lot, a bunch of us went in to talk with Orville about putting up fencing, catch nets, and hay bales to prevent the absolute carnage we witnessed, it was really bad."

I mean, come on now.

While Westway is steep, it has a similar profile to Outer Limits at Killington and somehow, Outer Limits continues to open ( without the carnage) every year since it was cut around 1978. Westway was cut around 1982. Unlike Vail, the Slutzkys were never cheap about blowing snow, but they were never big about blowing snow on Westway. There are clearly problems blowing snow on Westway based on prevailing winds, facing WNW, and cost. There might be a way to fix it, but maybe not.

However, there is zero reason not to blow snow on Annapurna and open the rest of Hunter West, unless you do not want to spend money. We will see what happens next year at Hunter. If Covid remains at a low level, the "lack of labor" excuses will be lies.
The Hunter West HSQ is important for spreading Hunter crowds. Not opening the West HSQ is a nightmare for skiers and riders at Hunter.


----------



## Harvey

Hey I asked a bunch of Hunter skiers why Westway never get snowmaking. These are people who have skied Hunter for decades, and it is their truth. I shared it.



x10003q said:


> However, there is zero reason not to blow snow on Annapurna and open the rest of Hunter West, unless you do not want to spend money.



That's a reason. You may not think it's a legit reason, but again, it's not your money, or mine. For whatever reason, you've now had three different owners who all saw it the same way.


----------



## raisingarizona

That whole damn ski area is a bloody mess from a design standpoint. In all honesty it’s no spot for a ski area. There’s much better places to naturally place ski runs in the Catskills.

Ive never skied Westway but if it’s icy it looks awfully dangerous for the average skier. City folks are notoriously bad at assessing risk and the carnage claim I can imagine is legit. If it is legit that’s a nightmare for patrol, management and court costs let alone the injured skiers.

I’m still standing by my claim that the mega pass affect will eventually be a good thing for some privately owned areas like Plattekill, but we shall see.


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> Hey I asked a bunch of Hunter skiers why Westway never get snowmaking. These are people who have skied Hunter for decades, and it is their truth. I shared it.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a reason. You may not think it's a legit reason, but again, it's not your money, or mine. For whatever reason, you've now had three different owners who all saw it the same way.


Orville and Izzy always opened Annapurna until they started to cede decision making to the next generation. Peak Resorts bought Hunter in 2015. They only owned Hunter until Vail bought Peak in 2019. Peak really did not even establish a pattern, other than they had less snowmaking than the Slutzkys. Here in the East, Vail has repeatedly shown they do not care to offer the best product at many of their ski areas.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> That whole damn ski area is a bloody mess from a design standpoint. In all honesty it’s no spot for a ski area. There’s much better places to naturally place ski runs in the Catskills.



The only reason there is a ski area there is that two hard headed brothers owned the land, and everyone told them it was an insane place to put a ski area. Once they heard that... it was full steam ahead!



raisingarizona said:


> I’m still standing by my claim that the mega pass affect will eventually be a good thing for some privately owned areas like Plattekill, but we shall see.



It's already having that effect, or maybe it's covid.


----------



## Zykamps

So I'm late to this but...
I am someone who has dropped Hunter like a bad habit due to the neglect of the west side. After the North expansion (under Peak) the west side seemed to be an afterthought. Not running the Zephyr midweek was the end for me. That trail pod, with or without westway open hits the marks for me.
High speed lift
Respectable vertical
Steep terrain with very little run in / out
Yes it all needed work but, as mentioned, far less than the ridiculous marketing experiment that is the north side.


----------



## Harvey

What percentage of skiers really care about skiing? I hate to oversimplify (actually i love it ha) but if we are only 10% of total skier visits (or revenue really) we are screwed. If we are more than half, the pendulum will swing back in our direction.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> What percentage of skiers really care about skiing?


A large percentage. How many obsess over every minute detail the way we do so that they can articulate exactly what kind of skiing they prefer? Much lower percentage. How many actually like skiing steep trails on cut up, mangled natural snow or stringing together a top to bottom run on melted out ribbons of dirty snow? I don't know. Probably not that many


----------



## Zykamps

Brownski said:


> How many actually like skiing steep trails on cut up, mangled natural snow or stringing together a top to bottom run on melted out ribbons of dirty snow?


I resemble this remark. I'm not so good but enjoy finding the challenge in the margins. Granted I agree that this is probably a small percentage. Also personally I am not good for the overall revenue stream. How many also fall into that category as well?


----------



## da-bum

I don't know Westway being so dangerous as to lead to fatalities. People are unlikely to slide into the woods on it due to its width, unless they are skiing fast on the edge of the trail. Unlike Anapurna where people regularly slide into the trees, or Twilight with its dual fall line right on the turn, which leads people into the trees.

Overlook in the north is as close to steep fall line skiing as there is in Hunter, with its relatively long and wide trail, its just the huge roller at the bottom and long runout that I might have a slight issue with. Pluses are no crowd and best snow condition toward the 2nd half of the day.

Vail should cut some intermediate trail down the west side, attracting more of the non-experts from the main mountain, thus justifying running the Z lift along with opening the other west side trails. Its not feasible to do the Belt Parkway (passing the Flyer) /Way On/Way Out route for more than a few times.


----------



## Brownski

Zykamps said:


> How many also fall into that category as well?


I don't know but I'm pretty sure Vail doesn't care


----------



## SayvilleSteve

da-bum said:


> Vail should cut some intermediate trail down the west side



I don't know that cutting a blue trail on the west side is possible. They had a good one (Way Out) that was ruined by the Hunter North addition. Hunter North had three fatalities in its first season. Annapurna had one back in 2017. The response has been to re-rate Twilight and Overlook to black and essentially ignore that Annapurna exists. Unfortunate. Not doing Epic next season and with day rates the way they, it may be some time before I make it back there.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> I don't know but I'm pretty sure Vail doesn't care


Mainly about Stowe & VailFail in this one.








Why Is Everyone So Angry At Vail Resorts? – VT SKI + RIDE


Look at it one way and it’s the classic American business success story: Young Wharton Business School grad gets tapped




vtskiandride.com




"“_You can’t offer unlimited access to something that has a limited supply. It’s as if you had a restaurant with 40 seats and then told an unlimited number of people they can come in and have a meal. You’re going to run out of space, materials and what a staff can deliver,” says Jonny Adler, a Stowe local and a partner in The Skinny Pancake restaurant business."

"“I don’t think losing a few customers is going to make a difference,” says Adler. “Vail’s a big corporation. If you ask Kirsten Lynch if she cares more about skiers or her shareholders, she’s going to say ‘shareholders,’—she should, it’s America and that’s her job,” he notes."_


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Mainly about Stowe & VailFail in this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Is Everyone So Angry At Vail Resorts? – VT SKI + RIDE
> 
> 
> Look at it one way and it’s the classic American business success story: Young Wharton Business School grad gets tapped
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vtskiandride.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "“_You can’t offer unlimited access to something that has a limited supply. It’s as if you had a restaurant with 40 seats and then told an unlimited number of people they can come in and have a meal. You’re going to run out of space, materials and what a staff can deliver,” says Jonny Adler, a Stowe local and a partner in The Skinny Pancake restaurant business."
> 
> "“I don’t think losing a few customers is going to make a difference,” says Adler. “Vail’s a big corporation. If you ask Kirsten Lynch if she cares more about skiers or her shareholders, she’s going to say ‘shareholders,’—she should, it’s America and that’s her job,” he notes."_


A little confused by the history for Katz and Epic. Pretty sure the shift away from real estate was started by the CEO before Katz. The implication that Katz came up with the Epic pass idea because of the Max Pass. The first season for the "M.A.X. Pass" was 2015-16. Epic was initiated in 2008. Also makes it sound like Epic was created and the acquisitions of new resorts ramped up quickly. Not exactly the reality. The acquisitions east of Denver started in 2012.

Probably few people in the northeast cared what VR did before Stowe was added to Epic. When Epic started, all the VR resorts were all in the west. No one in the northeast would've paid attention what happened to the first three family-owned hills in the midwest that became the "urban" division.

Would've been better to just stick to the story of what happened in the northeast in recent years. Plenty of reasons for folks in New England to be unhappy. Park City might be relevant for families who take holiday ski trips. But how many folks in the northeast fly to ski Stevens Pass?

_" . . .
Young Wharton Business School grad gets tapped to run a mid-sized ski company. Rather than focus on skiing as a way to sell condos, he sees the money in the lift ticket itself. More precisely the season pass, that three-figure annual fee that’s on auto-pay on hundreds of thousands of credit cards.

An idea percolates: What if you could get everyone to buy season passes in, say May or June? You wouldn’t have to worry as much about bad weather. You’d get all the money upfront, whether it snowed or not. And if those season passes were good at resorts all over the country (or world), there would bound to be snow somewhere, right? 

That Wharton grad, Rob Katz, takes an idea that was launched with the Max Pass and runs big with it, incentivizing early season pass sales by offering early discounts. As CEO of Vail Resorts, he jacks up the day ticket prices too, so it’s much more attractive to buy, say, a $783 season pass versus paying as much as $200 a day at a walk-up window.

How do you find more people willing to buy season passes in April? Well, you buy more ski resorts. Not just any ski resorts, but local hills near big population centers where people are passionate about their home mountains and ski every weekend.
. . ."_


----------



## DMC_Hunter

da-bum said:


> I don't know Westway being so dangerous as to lead to fatalities. People are unlikely to slide into the woods on it due to its width, unless they are skiing fast on the edge of the trail.


Double fall line - if you can't self arrest and fall at speed where it's steep. You can go into the fence eventually. It's ugly AF.


----------



## tirolski

The traffic & parking are major VailFail shitshows too.








The 5 Ski Resorts with the Worst Traffic - SnowBrains


Let’s talk about everyone’s absolute favorite part of any ski trip: traffic. Skiers can experience overcrowded interstates and standstill traffic as vacationers and locals alike race to see who will get to the parking garage first. Traffic to some resorts is so bad it can feel like you’re...




snowbrains.com




How many MPGs do vehicles get stuck in traffic?


----------



## tirolski

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507451066769502208


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> The traffic & parking are major VailFail shitshows too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 5 Ski Resorts with the Worst Traffic - SnowBrains
> 
> 
> Let’s talk about everyone’s absolute favorite part of any ski trip: traffic. Skiers can experience overcrowded interstates and standstill traffic as vacationers and locals alike race to see who will get to the parking garage first. Traffic to some resorts is so bad it can feel like you’re...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> snowbrains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many MPGs do vehicles get stuck in traffic?


Interesting that neither Stevens Pass, nor Crystal in WA got a mention.

Does seem that LCC/BCC managed to come up with a solution to avoiding drivers getting frustrated because they had to turn around after making the drive up a canyon road. Although I can't imagine all Alta skiers are happy with having to pay for parking on weekends if they aren't season pass holders.


----------



## da-bum

DMC_Hunter said:


> Double fall line - if you can't self arrest and fall at speed where it's steep. You can go into the fence eventually. It's ugly AF.


From riding the Zephyr, I don't see any obvious double fall line. The last time I skied Westway when it was groomed edge to edge was a very long time ago, where I could ski it at tremendous speed with turns so large and I didn't notice any tendency to pull me toward the trees. Maybe its because its so wide that I didn't even get close to the boundaries.


----------



## da-bum

SayvilleSteve said:


> I don't know that cutting a blue trail on the west side is possible. They had a good one (Way Out) that was ruined by the Hunter North addition. Hunter North had three fatalities in its first season. Annapurna had one back in 2017. The response has been to re-rate Twilight and Overlook to black and essentially ignore that Annapurna exists. Unfortunate. Not doing Epic next season and with day rates the way they, it may be some time before I make it back there.


Vail/Peak focuses on utilizing the North to reduce the crowd in the main mountain because it offers green, blue and black trails. Without those variety of trails for the West, it will always have the lowest priority.

I remember when I use to ski Windham way back and their North peak only had black trails. The lifts on the North were practically empty. After they cut some easier ways down, long lift lines suddenly appeared (not nearly as long as the base lifts though).


----------



## DMC_Hunter

Snowmaking on North currently on.


----------



## Benny Profane

What a screwed up company. You would think that they would step back and figure out how to manage all the mountains they own after the debacle of the past few years, but, no, all they know how to do is gobble up mountains. And this is thousands of miles away on a different continent. 









Vail Resorts To Acquire 55% Stake In Swiss Resort Andermatt-Sedrun Sport


Vail Resorts Inc (NYSE: MTN) has agreed to acquire a majority stake in Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG from Andermatt Swiss Alps AG (ASA). Andermatt-Sedrun is a destination ski resort in Central Switzerland. The company is acquiring a 55% ownership stake in Andermatt-Sedrun, and ASA will retain a 40%...




finance.yahoo.com


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> What a screwed up company. You would think that they would step back and figure out how to manage all the mountains they own after the debacle of the past few years, but, no, all they know how to do is gobble up mountains. And this is thousands of miles away on a different continent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts To Acquire 55% Stake In Swiss Resort Andermatt-Sedrun Sport
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts Inc (NYSE: MTN) has agreed to acquire a majority stake in Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG from Andermatt Swiss Alps AG (ASA). Andermatt-Sedrun is a destination ski resort in Central Switzerland. The company is acquiring a 55% ownership stake in Andermatt-Sedrun, and ASA will retain a 40%...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finance.yahoo.com


Ain’t that the place The Maggots recently went to?
Looked like a nice cool place they stayed at too.




__





Vail Resorts comes to Europe and buys 60 % of Andermatt-Sedrun Sport AG


Is this a good or a bad thing for us living and working in the Andermatt-Sedrun-Disentis SkiArena???



www.tetongravity.com


----------



## jamesdeluxe

@raisingarizona, enjoy!


----------



## tirolski

One good thing of Vail Resorts Inc spending Swiss francs in Switzerland is 
there’s fewer beans left for their beany counters to use to screw more places here in the states.

Tis sad when we export Vail Resort Inc.’s business model to Yurp.

It ain’t fittin, it just ain’t fittin, ... it ain’t fittin.


----------



## tirolski

Park City “paper”’s article bout Vail’s Yurp purchase.
At least there’s a train stop in Yurp.








In Europe, Vail Resorts finds something similar to its marquee US resorts


In Switzerland, Vail Resorts has found something similar to some of its United States properties in the recently linked ski areas of Andermatt and Sedrun.




www.parkrecord.com


----------



## jamesdeluxe

tirolski said:


> Park City “paper”’s article bout Vail’s Yurp purchase.


Written by their PR team in Broomfield.


----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> Written by their PR team in Broomfield.


Yup, the word “snow” was never used in the article.

So an Egyptian billionaire and Vail Resorts Inc are spending mucho dinero in a valley in Swiss Alps...that has lots of skiing.

Definitely a first.


----------



## tirolski

Rich Ruski oligarchs with “problems” in the French Alps.








Why oligarch cash is vanishing from this billionaire resort in the French Alps


T-ruble in paradise: Fancy French Alpine resort Courchevel is hosting fewer and fewer Russian oligarchs thanks to stiff vaccination rules and tightening sanctions.




nypost.com




Whatever happened to the good old benevolent despots?


----------



## tirolski

Stu put some effort into this. Attaboy 👍 








Alta, Deer Valley, Mad River Glen Must Allow Snowboarding, Court Rules


All three resorts to be transferred to custody of neighboring ski areas




www.stormskiing.com


----------



## tirolski

Somebody @ Whistler writes a letter to the ex-Pepsico-VP running Vail Resorts Inc...









Maxed Out: Dear Vail Resorts—loyalty is a two-way street


Vail Resorts is increasing its minimum wage and committing to affordable housing options—but what's needed in Whistler is a focus on customer service.




www.piquenewsmagazine.com


----------



## tirolski

And another,








Tom Clyde: The winter of our discontentment


Vail Resorts announced it has purchased the Andermatt-Sedrun resort in Switzerland. I’ve never heard of it, but it appears to be big. The press release said that the current management will finish off the season,…




www.parkrecord.com


----------



## jamesdeluxe

The Tom Clyde article is actual journalism, as opposed to the previous Park Record article about Andermatt that Tiro linked above, which included this tasty beancounter quote: "Vail Resorts anticipates significant EBITDA growth over time from the expansion of the village bed base, the mountain investments and capacity expansions, and the inclusion of the resort on the Epic Pass products." Glass half full, at least VR is transparent about its motivations.

On the other hand, there's this: "_Vail Resorts announced it has purchased the Andermatt-Sedrun resort in Switzerland. _*I’ve never heard of it, but it appears to be big."*

Dude, seriously?


----------



## tirolski

jamesdeluxe said:


> The Tom Clyde article is actual journalism, as opposed to the previous Park Record article about Andermatt that Tiro linked above, which included this tasty beancounter quote: "Vail Resorts anticipates significant EBITDA growth over time from the expansion of the village bed base, the mountain investments and capacity expansions, and the inclusion of the resort on the Epic Pass products." Glass half full, at least VR is transparent about its motivations.
> 
> On the other hand, there's this: "_Vail Resorts announced it has purchased the Andermatt-Sedrun resort in Switzerland. _*I’ve never heard of it, but it appears to be big."*
> 
> Dude, seriously?


He writes op-ed stuff.
It’s just BS-ing,
as in this,
_"The Swiss take their skiing very seriously. This could be the end of Swiss neutrality."_


----------



## tirolski

F Vail before they F you.





Vail wants this image censored.


412339 We had a big cycle this week in Whistler. This slide happened inbounds after avalanche control on the Blackcomb glacier. It was shared by a former patroller who writes a daily blog as an avalanche educator. Vail requested it be taken down. Rather than educating the public...



www.tetongravity.com




More here.








Whistler Employee Asked To Delete Avalanche Pictures By PR Department at Whistler (Vail Resorts)


^Caption & Image from Wayne Flann: “Boot hiker initiated this avalanche in Blackcomb Glacier.” UPDATE (4/8/22)- I have now received information that Wayne Flann, the person who capt…




unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## jasonwx

tirolski said:


> F Vail before they F you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail wants this image censored.
> 
> 
> 412339 We had a big cycle this week in Whistler. This slide happened inbounds after avalanche control on the Blackcomb glacier. It was shared by a former patroller who writes a daily blog as an avalanche educator. Vail requested it be taken down. Rather than educating the public...
> 
> 
> 
> www.tetongravity.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whistler Employee Asked To Delete Avalanche Pictures By PR Department at Whistler (Vail Resorts)
> 
> 
> ^Caption & Image from Wayne Flann: “Boot hiker initiated this avalanche in Blackcomb Glacier.” UPDATE (4/8/22)- I have now received information that Wayne Flann, the person who capt…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unofficialnetworks.com


yet all the suckers keep buying the epic pass...


----------



## tirolski

jasonwx said:


> yet all the suckers keep buying the epic pass...


As philosopher Ron White said,


----------



## DMC_Hunter

I'll be buying and Epic local pass again. Hoping to get out to Japan and use it next winter. 
I love the flexibility of slipping out for some quick lunchtime turns at Hunter - like today. 

Hoping the Vail thing keeps increasing my property value. If they build on the North Area - I can see it going higher since I live near there. 

Have a great summer everyone!


----------



## jimmypete

Sorry we can't go back in time and get a different mountain, You may be correct about Hunter designs, but the Slutskeys were pioneers and Hunter on a good day gives a good ski experience, and many of those "city folks" you seem to disdain are damn good skiers, biggest problem with Hunter is the closeness to a mega-population. it's a decent size mountain for a day trip from Jersey , NYC and Long Island, so it fills up, I don't care what anyone says about the terrain, yeah most trails rap around the mountain, but it is still somewhat better than Belle or Windham, Most of Belle's better trails have a short steep start and then a long easy runout. Windham also from the main mountain has sort of a similar lay out , It's the Catskills not Utah, so we take what we get. Hunter still suffers from the rep it got in the 70's and early 80's, but it has a tough bunch of skiers and riders , some maybe too tough, just make more snow next year Hunter , and there is nothing a few bulldozers and snow fences couldn't do to make West Way skiable for the average expert skier, of course with snowmaking.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

jimmypete said:


> Sorry we can't go back in time and get a different mountain, You may be correct about Hunter designs, but the Slutskeys were pioneers and Hunter on a good day gives a good ski experience, and many of those "city folks" you seem to disdain are damn good skiers, biggest problem with Hunter is the closeness to a mega-population. it's a decent size mountain for a day trip from Jersey , NYC and Long Island, so it fills up, I don't care what anyone says about the terrain, yeah most trails rap around the mountain, but it is still somewhat better than Belle or Windham, Most of Belle's better trails have a short steep start and then a long easy runout. Windham also from the main mountain has sort of a similar lay out , It's the Catskills not Utah, so we take what we get. Hunter still suffers from the rep it got in the 70's and early 80's, but it has a tough bunch of skiers and riders , some maybe too tough, just make more snow next year Hunter , and there is nothing a few bulldozers and snow fences couldn't do to make West Way skiable for the average expert skier, of course with snowmaking.


I'm don't need you to say "Sorry" - but thanks for the sentiment. 
I like Hunter. 
I like the riding and the terrain.
I like living here next to the creek. 
I like the house I live in
I like my friends that live in town.
I like how the town is getting more diverse and accepting. 
I like the food options between here and Windham.
I like the hiking and kayaking. 
I like that I'm close to NYC for work and close to my aging family. 
I like that I can ride mid-week. 
I like all my friends that work at the mountain. 

I'm good.


----------



## jimmypete

x10003q said:


> Orville and Izzy always opened Annapurna until they started to cede decision making to the next generation. Peak Resorts bought Hunter in 2015. They only owned Hunter until Vail bought Peak in 2019. Peak really did not even establish a pattern, other than they had less snowmaking than the Slutzkys. Here in the East, Vail has repeatedly shown they do not care to offer the best product at many of their ski areas.


funny because along with Hunter I went to Okemo and Sunnapee both Vail properties , it seemed they were well covered with snow with whales everywhere on both places, what is the reason that Hunter didn't take advantage of the very cold weather in January to make snow is beyond me, they did seem to learn their lesson and made snow in late March


----------



## x10003q

jimmypete said:


> funny because along with Hunter I went to Okemo and Sunnapee both Vail properties , it seemed they were well covered with snow with whales everywhere on both places, what is the reason that Hunter didn't take advantage of the very cold weather in January to make snow is beyond me, they did seem to learn their lesson and made snow in late March


Wildcat and Attitash were disasters all season.


----------



## raisingarizona

jimmypete said:


> funny because along with Hunter I went to Okemo and Sunnapee both Vail properties , it seemed they were well covered with snow with whales everywhere on both places, what is the reason that Hunter didn't take advantage of the very cold weather in January to make snow is beyond me, they did seem to learn their lesson and made snow in late March


It may have been that those areas were better staffed for unforeseen reasons instead of conscious decisions to put focus on them instead of others. FWIW, I’m throwing darts in the dark here and have absolutely no idea.


----------



## Ripitz

DMC_Hunter said:


> I like living here next to the creek.


What’s the creek like now? The one next to me is way up there and still rising.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> What’s the creek like now? The one next to me is way up there and still rising.


Ya can click the dots here for real time USGS data.


USGS Current Water Data for New York


----------



## Low Angle Life

Ripitz said:


> What’s the creek like now? The one next to me is way up there and still rising.


Hope you're on high enough ground and all is well, was in New Paltz today, the Wallkill had the road up to Mohonk closed.


----------



## Ripitz

Low Angle Life said:


> Hope you're on high enough ground and all is well, was in New Paltz today, the Wallkill had the road up to Mohonk closed.
> 
> View attachment 14587


Oh yeah, that’s Springtown Road. I lived up there one year in a trailer on the riverbank. The water came up so fast we couldn’t hook up to move so we chained the trailer to the trees and abandoned camp in a boat. Came back days later to find our rig had stayed high and dry on an “island”. Good times.

I also remember during one of the hurricanes the river was filled with floating pumpkins which was kind of a funny sight.

It’s one of the few rivers that flows north. If there is a mid-winter warmup upstream in Jersey and the river is still iced up up north it can be real shitshow.


----------



## DMC_Hunter

Ripitz said:


> What’s the creek like now? The one next to me is way up there and still rising.


Hope you're OK. After Irene I keep a closer eye on this stuff.  
The Schoharie creek is in pretty good shape now. It got pretty high - there's an old mile race by me that doesn't really get much water. It was flowing fast.
Friends off the mountain are having some road flooding issues.


----------



## Campgottagopee

DMC_Hunter said:


> I'm don't need you to say "Sorry" - but thanks for the sentiment.
> I like Hunter.
> I like the riding and the terrain.
> I like living here next to the creek.
> I like the house I live in
> I like my friends that live in town.
> I like how the town is getting more diverse and accepting.
> I like the food options between here and Windham.
> I like the hiking and kayaking.
> I like that I'm close to NYC for work and close to my aging family.
> I like that I can ride mid-week.
> I like all my friends that work at the mountain.
> 
> I'm good.


Rt on


----------



## tirolski

For some reason, didn’t see the current CEO of Vail Resorts Inc, who cut her teeth at PepsiCo, mentioned once in this article.








Women in the Vermont ski biz, not as rare as elsewhere - The Mountain Times


By Karen D. Lorentz The history of owning and operating ski areas is one dominated by males. For a variety of reasons, including the era of ski-area development being a time when a “woman’s place was in the home,” women […] Read More




mountaintimes.info


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Rob Katz and Win Smith to be Recognized by NSAA


SAM Magazine—Lakewood, Colo., April 18, 2022—Win Smith and Rob Katz will receive the 2022 National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) Lifetime Achievement and In




www.saminfo.com


----------



## tirolski

NYSkiBlog said:


> Rob Katz and Win Smith to be Recognized by NSAA
> 
> 
> SAM Magazine—Lakewood, Colo., April 18, 2022—Win Smith and Rob Katz will receive the 2022 National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) Lifetime Achievement and In
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.saminfo.com


Yup. That article ends just above Stenger’s gettin 18 months in the clink link, just sayin.


----------



## tirolski

Colorado’s independent ski areas are thriving in the shadow of dueling, consolidating resort giants


Colorado’s independent ski areas are thriving in shadow of dueling, consolidating giants




coloradosun.com


----------



## tirolski

Fuck Vail & their shitty shysters.








Pennies on the dollar: Effort to opt out of Vail Resorts settlement being organized


By now, approximately 100,000 Vail Resorts employees and former employees have likely received




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## Andy_ROC

tirolski said:


> Fuck Vail & their shitty shysters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pennies on the dollar: Effort to opt out of Vail Resorts settlement being organized
> 
> 
> By now, approximately 100,000 Vail Resorts employees and former employees have likely received
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com


Now they will be able to take the money gained by cheating employees plus the money from overselling season passes and not rendering services, and use those proceeds to further their takeover of your favorite local mountain. Vuck Fail!


----------



## tirolski

Andy_ROC said:


> Now they will be able to take the money gained by cheating employees plus the money from overselling season passes and not rendering services, and use those proceeds to further their takeover of your favorite local mountain. Vuck Fail!


What’s amazing is the article is from the local rag out there.
Those folks must really be pissed.


----------



## tirolski

Letter to the Editor: Vail Resorts should let people fight fraudulent pass violations


I’m writing this mainly as public service announcement to Epic Pass owners considering renewal. I only know this because it happened to me this year. When you click “agree” on the otherwise-unread terms and conditions...




www.summitdaily.com


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> Letter to the Editor: Vail Resorts should let people fight fraudulent pass violations
> 
> 
> I’m writing this mainly as public service announcement to Epic Pass owners considering renewal. I only know this because it happened to me this year. When you click “agree” on the otherwise-unread terms and conditions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.summitdaily.com


That seems pretty harsh. Does Vail revoke passes based on some algorithm or by the whim of a liftie who they are paying bonuses to catch people? What about a family group that picks up the wrong passes in the morning? It doesn't seem right that they can revoke a pass without giving you a opprtunity to explain.
I'm gonna need to be more careful about where all our passes are now.

mm


----------



## Emily

I saw this article last month:








Vail Police: Avoid Temptation To Break Law By Borrowing Ski Passes


The public is being warned not to borrow someone else's ski pass to cut costs at the ski lift. Vail Police Department says it has seen an increase in ski pass fraud this season.




denver.cbslocal.com


----------



## Harvey

"cut costs"

LOL


----------



## Peter Minde

Interesting. Like, we want you to run the lifts and give our kids Happy Meals, but we don't want you around here. https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/stone-dont-condemn-vails-future-by-killing-workforce-housing/


----------



## raisingarizona

Peter Minde said:


> Interesting. Like, we want you to run the lifts and give our kids Happy Meals, but we don't want you around here. https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/stone-dont-condemn-vails-future-by-killing-workforce-housing/


Well, the poor and common working class folk are gross and hard to look at so I get it.


----------



## Peter Minde

raisingarizona said:


> Well, the poor and common working class folk are gross and hard to look at so I get it.


And this $hit has been going on for decades. In the 1990s, some uber affluent Westchester County NY towns were looking at affordable housing so the people that volunteer for fire departments and first aid squad could afford to live there.


----------



## raisingarizona

Peter Minde said:


> And this $hit has been going on for decades. In the 1990s, some uber affluent Westchester County NY towns were looking at affordable housing so the people that volunteer for fire departments and first aid squad could afford to live there.


Flagstaff has been trying to build a new homeless shelter for the couple of decades.


----------



## tirolski

Peter Minde said:


> And this $hit has been going on for decades. In the 1990s, some uber affluent Westchester County NY towns were looking at affordable housing so the people that volunteer for fire departments and first aid squad could afford to live there.


Yup.
Benevolent despots.


----------



## Peter Minde

raisingarizona said:


> Flagstaff has been trying to build a new homeless shelter for the couple of decades.



Meanwhile Tennessee legislators think that criminalizing homelessness "will make the problem go away." Much like 16th century England. State terror. 








A bill working to criminalize homelessness in Tennessee is back on the Senate agenda


A once-failed bill that would criminalize camping on public property is back on the state Senate Judiciary Committee's agenda.



www.tennessean.com


----------



## gorgonzola

From my quick stay p Nashville on our GC road trip last fall it looked like a pretty big problem to sweep under the rug.

I did a 40'ish mi gravel ride 2 weeks ago connecting a few local rail trails and was saddened to see the "hobo camps" have gotten substantially bigger and multiplied this year. At first I attributed it to the early spring lack of foliage but as I went on there are just more and bigger ones...


----------



## raisingarizona

Peter Minde said:


> Meanwhile Tennessee legislators think that criminalizing homelessness "will make the problem go away." Much like 16th century England. State terror.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A bill working to criminalize homelessness in Tennessee is back on the Senate agenda
> 
> 
> A once-failed bill that would criminalize camping on public property is back on the state Senate Judiciary Committee's agenda.
> 
> 
> 
> www.tennessean.com


I bet the private prison industry has something to do with this. That shit is so dirty.


----------



## raisingarizona

gorgonzola said:


> From my quick stay p Nashville on our GC road trip last fall it looked like a pretty big problem to sweep under the rug.
> 
> I did a 40'ish mi gravel ride 2 weeks ago connecting a few local rail trails and was saddened to see the "hobo camps" have gotten substantially bigger and multiplied this year. At first I attributed it to the early spring lack of foliage but as I went on there are just more and bigger ones...


I’ve seen a shift in the types of beggars here in Flagstaff this past year. Instead of the obvious homeless folks suffering from mental health disorders there’s a lot more families wearing decent clothing.


----------



## Peter Minde

raisingarizona said:


> I’ve seen a shift in the types of beggars here in Flagstaff this past year. Instead of the obvious homeless folks suffering from mental health disorders there’s a lot more families wearing decent clothing.



High school classmate. Owned a successful insurance brokerage, married, three kids. Doing all right. Some years ago, he developed cancer. I can't remember the type, it was difficult to diagnose and mimicked other types of cancer. Long story short, medical bills took everything they had. Thank the gods, he is in remission. They are fortunate to be living with his mother. Medical debt can eat you alive.


----------



## tirolski

Vail Resorts promises to fight Town of Vail after council condemns parcel planned for affordable housing


Vail Resorts promises to fight Town of Vail after council condemns parcel planned for affordable housing




coloradosun.com


----------



## tirolski

Is it like Android vs IOS?
_Aspenware customers include Boyne Resorts, Powdr Corporation, Alterra Mountain Company, Aspen Skiing Company, and Jackson Hole Mountain Resort.





ASPEN SKIING COMPANY AND ALTERRA MOUNTAIN COMPANY ACQUIRE LEADING E-COMMERCE AND GUEST-EXPERIENCE TECHNOLOGY PROVIDER, ASPENWARE – Aspenware


DENVER, CO, May 12, 2022 – Today Aspenware announced it has been acquired by a Joint Venture formed between Alterra Mountain Company and Aspen Skiing Company. Aspenware will remain a standalone business with ongoing operations to serve its clients and the industry, while maintaining its current...




aspenware.com




_


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Is it like Android vs IOS?
> _Aspenware customers include Boyne Resorts, Powdr Corporation, Alterra Mountain Company, Aspen Skiing Company, and Jackson Hole Mountain Resort._


No, more like Linux vs MacOS.

Telluride (Epic Partner) and Thredbo (Ikon Partner in Australia) also use Aspenware according to the Aspenware website. Definitely strengthens the connections between the Ikon Partners and Alterra. SAM advertises Aspenware regularly. 

The CEO of Aspenware had experience with VR's software.






Team – Aspenware


Dedicated to Your Success Meet our team of mountain and technology experts who are ready to support you on your Aspenware journey.




aspenware.com


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> No, more like Linux vs MacOS.


Linux is open sourced software.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Linux is open sourced software.


Correct. Linux runs on lots of different hardware, including Macs. MacOS does not. Presumably VR is not selling their in-house developed software to non-Epic resorts. Aspenware will sell to any resort that is interested.


----------



## tirolski

_Experience of a lifetime_ especially if yer a fish nearby.








State issues Vail Resorts a notice of violation for 2021 fish kill


Vail Resorts has received notice of violation and a cease and desist order in the wake of a spill last year from part of the Vail Mountain snowmaking system that ultimately resulted in a fish…




buff.ly


----------



## Low Angle Life

Anyone else getting offered Epic Pass Promotional pricing? I just got an email offering $75 off any of their pass options. Wonder if sales are down?


----------



## Emily

Low Angle Life said:


> Anyone else getting offered Epic Pass Promotional pricing? I just got an email offering $75 off any of their pass options. Wonder if sales are down?



Did you previously have an Epic pass and did not renew?


----------



## Harvey

What percentage of skier visits are weekend and holidays?









Stowe Mountain Resort to charge $30 for ski parking


Stowe Mountain Resort says it will start charging for parking next winter for low occupancy vehicles on busy holiday weekends.




www.wcax.com





To me it feels like a race to the bottom.


----------



## Low Angle Life

Emily said:


> Did you previously have an Epic pass and did not renew?


During the 18/19 season I had Epic but not since then.


----------



## Benny Profane

Whoops. Harvey beat me.


----------



## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> What percentage of skier visits are weekend and holidays?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stowe Mountain Resort to charge $30 for ski parking
> 
> 
> Stowe Mountain Resort says it will start charging for parking next winter for low occupancy vehicles on busy holiday weekends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wcax.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me it feels like a race to the bottom.


I read once that Hunter was 60% capacity weekdays, 130 % weekends.

Even with that Boomer Pass at Sugarbush recently, which was essentially free skiing for 65+ midweek, the place was dead midweek, although Friday is the new Saturday at Killington, I am told.


----------



## MarzNC

Harvey said:


> What percentage of skier visits are weekend and holidays?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stowe Mountain Resort to charge $30 for ski parking
> 
> 
> Stowe Mountain Resort says it will start charging for parking next winter for low occupancy vehicles on busy holiday weekends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wcax.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me it feels like a race to the bottom.


For context, where parking is a limited by available space in the west, paid parking started a few years ago. All parking at Alta, including on the spaces on the town road was paid for 2021-22 on weekends and holidays until 1pm. Season Passholders were given a code so that parking would be free. Someone who bought a day ticket in advance got a code for $15 off the $25 parking fee. Solitude went to all paid parking a few years ago. Price goes down when there are more people in the vehicle. Solitude season passes also function as a UTA bus pass. The parking fees pay for making that happen. Similar situations near Seattle I think.

The advantage ski towns like Steamboat Springs, Aspen, or Taos have is that they developed good public bus systems quite a while back. So the fact that parking near the base of lifts is limited isn't as big a deal.

Stowe hasn't made improving the bus system a priority. That requires a lot of cooperation and planning between town and ski resort, so the transportation issues started before VR bought Stowe.


----------



## x10003q

Benny Profane said:


> I read once that Hunter was 60% capacity weekdays, 130 % weekends.
> 
> Even with that Boomer Pass at Sugarbush recently, which was essentially free skiing for 65+ midweek, the place was dead midweek, although Friday is the new Saturday at Killington, I am told.


Maybe 60% on a Friday - not true the rest of the week unless it snowed.


----------



## Harvey

Harvey said:


> What percentage of skier visits are weekend and holidays?


If 75% of total skier visits are holiday and weekend how good a deal is epic? 

Just wondering when pmb will start including parking in his math.

It's not really very revolutionary if it it only really works for midweek skiers. Every single pass out there does that.

Stowe is awesome, but it sucks.


----------



## not2brite

Harvey said:


> What percentage of skier visits are weekend and holidays?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stowe Mountain Resort to charge $30 for ski parking
> 
> 
> Stowe Mountain Resort says it will start charging for parking next winter for low occupancy vehicles on busy holiday weekends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wcax.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me it feels like a race to the bottom.


The Northeast Midweek pass is only $385. I’m getting one. I can work remote and I already booked a hotel in Burlington for a Mon-Fri trip in Feb so I can use my 5 Stowe days. I booked the same thing in Rutland for Jan so I can hit Okemo for 5 days. IF they can get their act together in NH I’ll do the same for North Conway and hit Attitash & Wildcat. Even if I use just those first 10 days that’s pretty good value. I wouldn’t dream of going near any of these places on a weekend anyway.


----------



## Harvey

Like I said if you can ski exclusively midweek, the world is your oyster. A pass to any mountain you love will be a great deal.

It would be interesting to see what skiing would be if everyone had the flexibility to ski every day. With all that "expanded capacity" maybe the industry would grow and the experience would be better.

As far as work goes, I do think that if everyone worked from home, every day, something would be lost. Maybe I'm just an old fart who can't imagine the future. It will be interesting to see what work looks like in 5 years.


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> As far as work goes, I do think that if everyone worked from home, every day, something would be lost


Yeah. I do think something would be lost
Automobiles, oatmeal, ski boots, computers, carhart beanies, coffee, baby formula, bourbon, televisions, pencils, cargo ships, Uber, pizza, Starbucks, beer, books, lawn mowers, grills, air conditioners, roads, ambulances, aspirin, kindergarten….. I guess it is a good thing not everybody works from home.


----------



## Harvey

Touche. I googled "what percentage of GDP can't be WFH" with no satisfying answer. 🤠 
But you're right, everything that actually "exists" requires some kind of WFW?


----------



## rebel1916

Harvey said:


> Like I said if you can ski exclusively midweek, the world is your oyster. A pass to any mountain you love will be a great deal.
> 
> It would be interesting to see what skiing would be if everyone had the flexibility to ski every day. With all that "expanded capacity" maybe the industry would grow and the experience would be better.
> 
> As far as work goes, I do think that if everyone worked from home, every day, something would be lost. Maybe I'm just an old fart who can't imagine the future. It will be interesting to see what work looks like in 5 years.


There are a very small percentage of people who can work from home at all. Even most of these need to be in the office some percentage of the time. Data entry and call center work possibly being exceptions. Most people who need to be able to exercise independent judgement are going to want to have regular in person contact with both their superiors and subordinates. Getting everyone in a room and hashing out a problem works a lot better in a real room than a virtual room. Bringing my long winded pontification to a close, I would expect that there will always be more hours being worked from home then there were in 2019, but I would be shocked if there were ever really more hours being worked from home then there was in 2020, and I would be fairly surprised if we ever got back above 2021 levels, at least in my lifetime.


----------



## Benny Profane

not2brite said:


> The Northeast Midweek pass is only $385. I’m getting one. I can work remote and I already booked a hotel in Burlington for a Mon-Fri trip in Feb so I can use my 5 Stowe days. I booked the same thing in Rutland for Jan so I can hit Okemo for 5 days. IF they can get their act together in NH I’ll do the same for North Conway and hit Attitash & Wildcat. Even if I use just those first 10 days that’s pretty good value. I wouldn’t dream of going near any of these places on a weekend anyway.


If you're skiing midweek, you don't have to sleep in Burlington and Rutland. Cancel that. Rooms are much easier to find Sun-Thur. up closer to lifts.


----------



## Benny Profane

rebel1916 said:


> There are a very small percentage of people who can work from home at all. Even most of these need to be in the office some percentage of the time. Data entry and call center work possibly being exceptions. Most people who need to be able to exercise independent judgement are going to want to have regular in person contact with both their superiors and subordinates. Getting everyone in a room and hashing out a problem works a lot better in a real room than a virtual room. Bringing my long winded pontification to a close, I would expect that there will always be more hours being worked from home then there were in 2019, but I would be shocked if there were ever really more hours being worked from home then there was in 2020, and I would be fairly surprised if we ever got back above 2021 levels, at least in my lifetime.


Young people like to socialize. We are social animals. I'm guessing most unnatached (not married and/or with kids) really want to get back to being with other young people. It's why rents in NYC are absurd, again.


----------



## not2brite

Benny Profane said:


> If you're skiing midweek, you don't have to sleep in Burlington and Rutland. Cancel that. Rooms are much easier to find Sun-Thur. up closer to lifts.


Two reasons. Little further away AND this far in advance is cheaper. I don’t mind a short drive. I work nights and finish @ 7:00AM so have time to kill before lifts spin. Got everything for about $70/night. I had checked during the season and everything was pretty close to double that. I don’t need anything fancy mostly Days Inn type places. I would stay in a dive hotel if it was cheap enough. As long as they cleanup the blood stains and chalk outlines and I’m good.


----------



## Benny Profane

Sorry, but Rutland is the pits.

Turn of the River up at Killington. Nuf said. Don't make your life miserable to save 10-20 bucks.

Booking.com is your friend in travel. It's no longer a book way ahead market. It's a, we have empty rooms to fill, now, market. Just be aware of incoming storms. The market changes fast with snow.


----------



## not2brite

For work purposes I also prefer something in a populated area with strong mobile service. I have no one else on shift with me so if Wifi goes out for some reason I need to be sure I can get a strong enough signal to hot spot my phone and connect to our VPN.


----------



## Benny Profane

Well, most wifi I have encountered in Vermont lodging has been pretty good, for recreational purposes, and I dont spend a lot for a bed. I would think that it's pretty hard to operate a hotel/motel without providing good wifi, because you'll be called out pretty quickly on social media reviews if it isn't. Most customers demand it today. Netflix needs more bandwidth than Zoom, right?

Something to watch out for in Rutland, although I never sleep there, because, midweek, the Killington market usually has an affordable bed for me: Beware of, sorry to say, welfare hotels or mandated homeless shelters. I have experienced this a few times in Manchester, where I sleep before driving up to Stratton. From what I understand, the state of Vermont is subsidizing some rooms for those that cant find anything else. "Long term tenants" I was told, once, when I complained about the trash they attempted to room me next to. ( trash = sitting outside your room playing "play that funky music, white boy" real loud while finishing a sixer and doing god knows what for drugs while it's ten degrees outside) I insisted on a new room far away. I'll bet Rutland has a lot of that. There's a few motels taking tenants like that on Rt. 4 below Pico. The motels that are actually still open. It's a poor state with a big drug problem. Be careful.


----------



## Benny Profane

Something to consider when you ride a chair at Stowe, after the privilege of paying 30 bucks to park 200 yards from one.









State finds Vail Resorts’ failure to replace equipment contributed to Stowe zipline employee’s death


“Mr. Lewis would not have been killed if the primary attachment lanyard had been replaced due to aging and (wear) of the lanyard,” a report by the Vermont Occupational Safety and Health Administration concludes.



vtdigger.org


----------



## not2brite

Benny Profane said:


> Something to watch out for in Rutland, although I never sleep there, because, midweek, the Killington market usually has an affordable bed for me: Beware of, sorry to say, welfare hotels or mandated homeless shelters. I have experienced this a few times in Manchester, where I sleep before driving up to Stratton. From what I understand, the state of Vermont is subsidizing some rooms for those that cant find anything else. "Long term tenants" I was told, once, when I complained about the trash they attempted to room me next to. ( trash = sitting outside your room playing "play that funky music, white boy" real loud while finishing a sixer and doing god knows what for drugs while it's ten degrees outside) I insisted on a new room far away. I'll bet Rutland has a lot of that. There's a few motels taking tenants like that on Rt. 4 below Pico. The motels that are actually still open. It's a poor state with a big drug problem. Be careful.


That is some very good info I had no idea about or would have even thought of. Thank you. I will definitely be lobbing in a call to see if the places I booked do this.


----------



## Peter Minde

Benny Profane said:


> Sorry, but Rutland is the pits.
> 
> Turn of the River up at Killington. Nuf said. Don't make your life miserable to save 10-20 bucks.
> 
> Booking.com is your friend in travel. It's no longer a book way ahead market. It's a, we have empty rooms to fill, now, market. Just be aware of incoming storms. The market changes fast with snow.


I stayed in the bunk room at Turn of the River like, 2 decades ago. Can't remember where I skied tho.


----------



## Peter Minde

Benny Profane said:


> Something to consider when you ride a chair at Stowe, after the privilege of paying 30 bucks to park 200 yards from one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> State finds Vail Resorts’ failure to replace equipment contributed to Stowe zipline employee’s death
> 
> 
> “Mr. Lewis would not have been killed if the primary attachment lanyard had been replaced due to aging and (wear) of the lanyard,” a report by the Vermont Occupational Safety and Health Administration concludes.
> 
> 
> 
> vtdigger.org


You beat me to it with this one.


----------



## Benny Profane

Peter Minde said:


> You beat me to it with this one.


I just read this in the NYT. Sorry, may be behind a paywall for many. But, just highlights how Jack Welch is the root of all evil in today's corporate world. Cost cutting is why Boeing airplanes fall out of the sky and employees die on zip lines. But CEO pay is way up.

How Jack Welch’s Reign at G.E. Gave Us Elon Musk’s Twitter Feed https://nyti.ms/3NvTPA3


----------



## Brownski

I’m not sure if it’s Welch or a bunch of mediocre C students misunderstanding his book but my company is full middle managers and executives who think they’re following his methods. It sucks


----------



## tirolski

Peter Minde said:


> You beat me to it with this one.


Another Peter did too.


----------



## Benny Profane

Brownski said:


> I’m not sure if it’s Welch or a bunch of mediocre C students misunderstanding his book but my company is full middle managers and executives who think they’re following his methods. It sucks


Well, that's sort of my point. He was regarded as an oracle when he was CEO, and even up to today, is still reverently referred to as the best evah. If you read the article, head hunters would poach middle to upper management for years from GE, considering their training the best. They established their own B school/internal training institute that other corporations have emulated, and the experience in those schools is highly respected on resumes. The cancer spread, and it's still out there. Meanwhile, GE imploded to nothing. 

So, anyway, little corporate cube dweller at Vail who thought that that zip line did not need manufacturer prescribed maintenance was, most likely, educated in some B school that advocated cost cutting and shareholder value, quarter to quarter, and, whoops, one life lost. He'll probably get a raise if his numbers are good.


----------



## Harvey

Was Jack the reason GE went from the worlds largest company (capitalization) to an also ran?


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> So, anyway, little corporate cube dweller at Vail who thought that that zip line did not need manufacturer prescribed maintenance was, most likely, educated in some B school that advocated cost cutting and shareholder value, quarter to quarter, and, whoops, one life lost. He'll probably get a raise if his numbers are good.


Dude got a service award from ASTM 15OCT21 for some reason.








Barrow Receives ASTM Service Award - Adventure Park Insider


Jamie Barrow, director of operation training and risk management for summer operations across the Vail Resorts empire, was publicly recognized with the ASTM Service Award at the meeting of the ASTM Committee F24 on Amusement Rides and Devices, Oct. 15. The award cited Barrow for his role in...




adventureparkinsider.com


----------



## trackbiker

Harvey said:


> Was Jack the reason GE went from the worlds largest company (capitalization) to an also ran?


Without going into a lot of detail; He built a house of cards and got out when he knew it was about to fall.


----------



## tirolski

An older story...





Heavenly agrees to settle zipline death case - Lake Tahoe NewsLake Tahoe News







www.laketahoenews.net




Vail Resorts has owned “Heavenly" since 2002.


----------



## Benny Profane

trackbiker said:


> Without going into a lot of detail; He built a house of cards and got out when he knew it was about to fall.


You know that Warren Buffett saying, that you know who's swimming naked when the tide goes out? '08 did that to GE. 

Did they get bailout money? I wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Dude got a service award from ASTM 15OCT21 for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barrow Receives ASTM Service Award - Adventure Park Insider
> 
> 
> Jamie Barrow, director of operation training and risk management for summer operations across the Vail Resorts empire, was publicly recognized with the ASTM Service Award at the meeting of the ASTM Committee F24 on Amusement Rides and Devices, Oct. 15. The award cited Barrow for his role in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adventureparkinsider.com


George Carlin famously said, it's a big club, and you're not in it. No consequences for the elite when they fail.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> George Carlin famously said, it's a big club, and you're not in it...


Ya can choose to not be in that club Uncle Ben. 
Life is beautiful, especially when there’s fresh fun snow even on a local bump.
Vuck Fail.


----------



## Peter Minde

tirolski said:


> Another Peter did too.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1528553779028631552


So this poor bastard died because f'n Vail didn't want to spend $26.00.


----------



## tirolski

🤔 








Seeing Red: Homeowners sue Vail Resorts over metro district scheme


A scheme set in motion two decades ago by Vail Resorts has unjustly taken millions of dollars from Eagle County homeowners and put them on the hook for millions of dollars more, those homeowners al…




www.denverpost.com


----------



## Harvey

Vail’s Katz Decries “Growth NIMBYism,” Owns 2021-22 Staffing Issues


“What troubles me is this anti-growth narrative that's out there in this sport right now.”




www.stormskiing.com





You can read a decent amount of this without a subscription.

Katz is a smart man, and he is conflating some things on purpose. Cheaper passes don't mean that skiing is cheaper, or more accessible or bringing in new skiers.

You're a capitalist dude, it's no crime, fucking own it.

To his credit he does take responsibility for the degraded experience this year.


----------



## Benny Profane

It's been a year or more since he installed that woman as CEO, and he's still acting as public spokesman for the company. All I hear from her is flowery marketing gibberish.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> It's been a year or more since he installed that woman as CEO, and he's still acting as public spokesman for the company. All I hear from her is flowery marketing gibberish.


She gonna have to do some good gibberishin after markets close on the 9th this week as MTN's quarterly earnings report comes out.
Should be an interesting shitshow.


----------



## tirolski

Peter Minde said:


> So this poor bastard died because f'n Vail didn't want to spend $26.00.


Another recent article about the tragedy here.








A Stowe Zip-Line Guide Was Killed When a $26 Piece of Equipment Failed. Will His Death Spur Change?


To those who behold them, mountains can exert an almost gravitational force. Scott Lewis let Mount Mansfield's pull him in. He learned to ski on...




www.sevendaysvt.com


----------



## tirolski

Vail came out with 1/4-ly earnings and, “Obviously, last year was a big year for us, and it exceeded our expectations,” Lynch said.









Vail Resorts, Inc. (MTN) Stock Price, News, Quote & History - Yahoo Finance


Find the latest Vail Resorts, Inc. (MTN) stock quote, history, news and other vital information to help you with your stock trading and investing.




finance.yahoo.com




_"Additionally, from the beginning of the company's third quarter of fiscal 2022 through June 8, 2022, the company repurchased 303,143 shares at an average price of $246.33 for a total of approximately $74.7 million."_

Vail Resorts Inc. disclosed they’ve been buying back their stock ... and it still goes down.


----------



## jasonwx

imagine if they put the 74 mil back into their properties...keep buying that epic pass...


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2022 Third Quarter Results, Early Season Pass Sales Results, and Provides Updated Fiscal 2022 Outlook


/PRNewswire/ -- Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE: MTN) today reported results for the third quarter of fiscal 2022 ended April 30, 2022, which were negatively impacted...




www.prnewswire.com


----------



## MarzNC

NYSkiBlog said:


> Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2022 Third Quarter Results, Early Season Pass Sales Results, and Provides Updated Fiscal 2022 Outlook
> 
> 
> /PRNewswire/ -- Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE: MTN) today reported results for the third quarter of fiscal 2022 ended April 30, 2022, which were negatively impacted...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.prnewswire.com


What caught my eye:

" . . .
. . . This past season, approximately 72% of all Vail Resorts 2021/2022 North American skier visitation was on a pass product, excluding employee and complimentary visitation, which compares to approximately 60% and approximately 51% for the 2018/2019 and 2014/2015 North American ski seasons, respectively. . . .
. . ."

Were 2018-19 and 2014-15 good snow years in the Rockies? The Peak acquisition was completed in July 2019. The first three midwest areas/resorts (Detroit, Chicago, Minn/St. Paul markets) were bought in 2012.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> What caught my eye.


This was telling.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534990930792460288and this thread.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535006116278591493


----------



## Harvey

MarzNC said:


> 72% of all Vail Resorts 2021/2022 North American skier visitation was on a pass product,



It's a new day. Industrywide what was this number in 2015? 2019? I don't know, but it was a hell of a lot lower.


----------



## raisingarizona

MarzNC said:


> What caught my eye:
> 
> " . . .
> . . . This past season, approximately 72% of all Vail Resorts 2021/2022 North American skier visitation was on a pass product, excluding employee and complimentary visitation, which compares to approximately 60% and approximately 51% for the 2018/2019 and 2014/2015 North American ski seasons, respectively. . . .
> . . ."
> 
> Were 2018-19 and 2014-15 good snow years in the Rockies? The Peak acquisition was completed in July 2019. The first three midwest areas/resorts (Detroit, Chicago, Minn/St. Paul markets) were bought in 2012.


I'm not sure about 14/15 but 18/19 was huge.


----------



## raisingarizona

I don't know what ski areas max capacity looks like but we haven't actually hit it yet there other than holiday periods and Snowbowl has plans to expand parking to reach those numbers but I can tell ya this, the busy days are already too much for me to spend it there skiing anymore. It's getting to the point that the activity itself is losing it's overall value and I'd rather be spending my time doing other things.


----------



## Brownski

Could they buy a couple of fixed grips and add some terrain to the periphery of the resort? Spread the crowds out a little?


----------



## jasonwx

Like Yogi said, Nobody goes there anymore, it's to crowded..


----------



## Harvey

Brownski said:


> Could they buy a couple of fixed grips and add some terrain to the periphery of the resort? Spread the crowds out a little?



If the goal is to max out, will that actually help or improve the experience or just make it a bigger resort?


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> I don't know what ski areas max capacity looks like but we haven't actually hit it yet there other than holiday periods and Snowbowl has plans to expand parking to reach those numbers but I can tell ya this, the busy days are already too much for me to spend it there skiing anymore. It's getting to the point that the activity itself is losing it's overall value and I'd rather be spending my time doing other things.


Yep
I drive by Greek's parking lot and think there's zero chance I'd deal with that. Over it. Been there done that.


----------



## MarzNC

VR announced plans for a replacement lift at Attitash. The summit triple gets scrapped and replaced with a high-speed quad. I rode that lift several years ago when I checked out Attitash in the afternoon after skiing at Wildcat in the morning. That was just before VR bought out Peak Resorts.

June 12, 2022








Vail to Upgrade Attitash Summit Triple, along with 5-Chair at Breckenridge and Kehr’s at Stevens Pass


Announcement comes as Epic Pass sales continue to rise




www.stormskiing.com


----------



## Brownski

Harvey said:


> If the goal is to max out, will that actually help or improve the experience or just make it a bigger resort?


The goal would be to give guys like RA an alternative to the main lift shitshow on busy days.


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> The goal would be to give guys like RA an alternative to the main lift shitshow on busy days.





Brownski said:


> Could they buy a couple of fixed grips and add some terrain to the periphery of the resort? Spread the crowds out a little?


It's surrounded by wilderness area so expanding beyond the current foot print ain't happening. I'm ok doing other things and shit, it's all burning up today anyways. Not Snowbowl but the Peaks are going up huge in this wildfire.

It's a very sad day here in flagstaff. It won't ever be the same.

If I want to ski I'll go to Taos or the SanJuans.


----------



## Benny Profane

Hey, not trying to be a wise ass, but, if the lift structure survives, doesn't that open up skiable acres?


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> It's surrounded by wilderness area so expanding beyond the current foot print ain't happening. I'm ok doing other things and shit, it's all burning up today anyways. Not Snowbowl but the Peaks are going up huge in this wildfire.
> 
> It's a very sad day here in flagstaff. It won't ever be the same.


Dang crazy shit. 
Stay strong RA.








Man who allegedly started Pipeline Fire burned toilet paper, claims he didn’t see ‘no campfires’ signs


On Sunday, authorities arrested 57-year-old Matthew Riser after a forest official said he started the fire and tried to drive off in a white pickup truck along Snowbowl Road.




www.azfamily.com


----------



## raisingarizona

Benny Profane said:


> Hey, not trying to be a wise ass, but, if the lift structure survives, doesn't that open up skiable acres?


Well, it's not at the ski area yet but it may get there. There will be new ski lines in the Inner Basin I imagine but the landscape is going to have that post fire apocalyptic moon scape thing which isn't awesome.


----------



## rebel1916

Benny Profane said:


> Hey, not trying to be a wise ass, but, if the lift structure survives, doesn't that open up skiable acres?


Who tf would trade glades for more groomers?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

rebel1916 said:


> Who tf would trade glades for more groomers?


ORDA, apparently. 

mm


----------



## rebel1916

Milo Maltbie said:


> ORDA, apparently.
> 
> mm


True fact


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> ORDA, apparently.
> 
> mm


Stay tuned.


----------



## tirolski

First Vail Resorts got into a fight with Vail’s town council. Now it’s tangling with Park City’s Planning Commission.


The Park City Planning Commission on Wednesday night sided with a group of locals who are fighting Vail Resorts’ plan to upgrade three chairlifts at the largest ski area in the U.S.




coloradosun.com




&








Vail Resorts' stock hit a 52-week low following planning commission's decision - TownLift, Park City News


PARK CITY, Utah — A day after the Park City Planning Commission’s decision to grant the appeal of the approved lift upgrades of Eagle and Silverlode at Park City Mountain, […]




townlift.com


----------



## MarzNC

Here are comments about VR's issues with local governments in Storm Skiing Journal.

June 18, 2022








Vail Resorts Faces Second Locals’ Revolt in 2 Months as Appeal Shuts Down Park City Lift Projects


Loss follows employee housing defeat in Vail




www.stormskiing.com


----------



## tirolski

Deer Valley just got their new lift approved. 🤔 Their neighbors haven’t.








Planning commission approves Deer Valley ski lift upgrade


The Park City Planning Commission unanimously approved Deer Valley’s plans to upgrade the Burns ski lift and Little Stick beginner ski area Wednesday night.




www.kpcw.org


----------



## tirolski

“Broomfield Resort Management” does have a ring toit.


----------



## Brownski

Fuck Broomfield Resort Management. It’s wordy but I can get used to it.


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> Fuck Broomfield Resort Management. It’s wordy but I can get used to it.


"Broomfield Resort Management’s" CFO announced he’s quitting.
Effective New Year’s eve or until another one takes the reigns.








Vail Resorts Announces CFO, Michael Barkin, Will Step Down


/PRNewswire/ -- Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE: MTN) today announced that Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer Michael Barkin will be stepping down...




www.prnewswire.com


----------



## Benny Profane

Timed his exit party really well.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Timed his exit party really well.


SEC filing says he’s leaving to "pursue personal interests".
Wonder if they’ll give take away his parking pass and/or cut to the front of the lines pass? 🤔


----------



## tirolski

Dang cheaters.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555331980551589888


----------



## Harvey

Vail bought some real estate on Main Street in Hunter. (2.5m?)






7717 Main Street, Hunter, NY 12442 | Compass


7717 Main Street, Hunter, NY 12442 is a mixed use property not currently listed. This is a 6-bed, 5-bath, 6,152 sqft property.



www.compass.com


----------



## RichTee

Harvey said:


> Vail bought some real estate on Main Street in Hunter. (2.5m?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7717 Main Street, Hunter, NY 12442 | Compass
> 
> 
> 7717 Main Street, Hunter, NY 12442 is a mixed use property not currently listed. This is a 6-bed, 5-bath, 6,152 sqft property.
> 
> 
> 
> www.compass.com


Paid waaaay to much, there's barely enough parking for two cars.


----------



## Harvey

Vail to limit day ticket sales:


----------



## SayvilleSteve

From that same presentation...


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

Yeah but I bet all those visits are at the same crown jewel resorts on the same days, while their feeder hills are left to wither.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Back to Tirolski's post....I thought road access was needed to lifts, as a matter of law, for safety and maintenance. Something @snoloco would probably know.
And, if the Vail stuff is true.....what a s***show of a company.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

TheGreatAbyss said:


> Yeah but I bet all those visits are at the same crown jewel resorts on the same days, while their feeder hills are left to wither.


Could be, or it could be the fact that anyone on an Epic Day Pass (which run from 1-7 days) counts as a passholder and no one buys walk-up tickets anymore. Same people, different accounting.


----------



## MarzNC

Vail Resorts finally posted info for the Pittsburgh area trio. Not too much changing for Seven Springs and Laurel Mountain, but Hidden Valley won't be opening until close to Christmas week. Perhaps reasonable given the recent winters in terms of when snowmaking could start in earnest. Will be a disappointment for long time HV pass holders. The three mountains have had a shared pass and/or the ability to get in a few days for pass holders for several years once Laurel re-opened after 2016.

With Timberline in WV being run so well after being bought by the Perfect family, there is less chatter on DCSki about the former Snowtime trio close to DC (Liberty, Whitetail, Roundtop). Cutting night hours wasn't a popular move and seemed to be the new normal as of last season.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

MarzNC said:


> Will be a disappointment for long time HV pass holders.


Snowmaking at Hunter has been disappointing since the Vail takeover.


----------



## Harvey

SayvilleSteve said:


> Snowmaking at Hunter has been disappointing since the Vail takeover.


How did Peak compare to Slutzky?


----------



## Campgottagopee

SayvilleSteve said:


> Snowmaking at Hunter has been disappointing since the Vail takeover.


That's too bad. Hunter always killed it with the man O made


----------



## jasonwx

Harvey said:


> How did Peak compare to Slutzky?


when the Slutzky's owned the place, it had a soul. Not unlike Platt. Skiing was different but the lodge and feel of the place was cool..
The brothers where always walking around the lodge talking and helping etc..


----------



## Harvey

All true. And the Slutzky's weren't drug dealers either.

In this case I was wondering about snowmaking specifically.


----------



## Zykamps

Harvey said:


> All true. And the Slutzky's weren't drug dealers either.
> 
> In this case I was wondering about snowmaking specifically.


Always liked the Slutzkys and their presence at Hunter. If bored watch dopesick about the sacklers although no skiing involved it is interesting.

Regarding snowmaking, Peak did ok at first but it seemed it all went downhill with the north expansion. Under Vail I doubt it will improve.

Full disclosure after many years at Hunter I will be at Gore this year...


----------



## Harvey

Zy is Gore a long drive for you?


----------



## Zykamps

Harvey said:


> Zy is Gore a long drive for you?


A bit over 2. Might do some overnights up there. Also the Belle is a bit closer for day trips. Should be fun!


----------



## snoloco

D.B. Cooper said:


> Back to Tirolski's post....I thought road access was needed to lifts, as a matter of law, for safety and maintenance. Something @snoloco would probably know.
> And, if the Vail stuff is true.....what a s***show of a company.


You don't necessarily need a road. You do need a way for lift maintenance to access every tower, and an evacuation plan. Maintenance access would be with snowcats and snowmobiles in the winter. The only time that lift is going to operate with riders on board is when there is sufficient coverage to ski the terrain. That also means they can run equipment on it. For seasonal maintenance, that will all have to be done in the spring, after the resort closes, but when they still have sufficient coverage to use snowcats or snowmobiles to access the towers.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> You don't necessarily need a road. You do need a way for lift maintenance to access every tower, and an evacuation plan. Maintenance access would be with snowcats and snowmobiles in the winter. The only time that lift is going to operate with riders on board is when there is sufficient coverage to ski the terrain. That also means they can run equipment on it. For seasonal maintenance, that will all have to be done in the spring, after the resort closes, but when they still have sufficient coverage to use snowcats or snowmobiles to access the towers.


But there isn’t always coverage on lift line clearings.


----------



## snoloco

raisingarizona said:


> But there isn’t always coverage on lift line clearings.


There isn't, but most lifts aren't far from work roads or other trails. The lift in question here is unique because it has no road access at all. So everything that requires equipment would need to be done over snow.


----------



## SayvilleSteve

Harvey said:


> All true. And the Slutzky's weren't drug dealers either.
> 
> In this case I was wondering about snowmaking specifically.



The key to a successful season at Hunter is to make snow at every opportunity. Which seemed to be the previous owners' m.o. (both Slutzkys and Peak). I noticed several times both early in the season and late-February where the weather was prime for snowmaking but the guns weren't on. Seemed like a very Rockies/West Coast vibe to think what they were doing was sufficient. 



> Regarding snowmaking, Peak did ok at first but it seemed it all went downhill with the north expansion. Under Vail I doubt it will improve.


The only thing good about the North Expansion is the parking.


----------



## Harvey

SayvilleSteve said:


> The key to a successful season at Hunter is to make snow at every opportunity.



Steve for GM.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> There isn't, but most lifts aren't far from work roads or other trails. The lift in question here is unique because it has no road access at all. So everything that requires equipment would need to be done over snow.


At Snowbowl all of the lift tower maintenance is done from a basket on the line.


----------



## snoloco

raisingarizona said:


> At Snowbowl all of the lift tower maintenance is done from a basket on the line.


That's called the work chair. A lot of tower maintenance can be done from it, but not moving large components like sheave assemblies.


----------



## snoloco

SayvilleSteve said:


> The only thing good about the North Expansion is the parking.


Unfortunately, I think the North expansion was a total flop. It was meant to expand intermediate terrain, but two of the 3 main trails needed to be rerated to black after one year. It doesn't seem to get nearly the snowmaking priority that the front side gets, and they never staff the ticket window over there anymore, even on weekends. I'm not sure it brought in the additional skier visits as intended, or even pulled lines away from the main 6 pack. While I still like the terrain, this is my analysis of it. Unfortunately, it's hard to make any expansion profitable without a real estate component to it.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> That's called the work chair. A lot of tower maintenance can be done from it, but not moving large components like sheave assemblies.


Nice. I got take a ride down in the work chair with my dog one summer a bunch of years ago after a hike. I thought it was neat.


----------



## tirolski

Vail Resorts workers say efforts to improve employee experience at odds with class-action settlement


Amid Vail Resorts efforts to present itself as a company that prioritizes resort talent, a lawsuit involving many of the company's employees isn't helping that end.




www.vaildaily.com


----------



## Zykamps

SayvilleSteve said:


> The key to a successful season at Hunter is to make snow at every opportunity. Which seemed to be the previous owners' m.o. (both Slutzkys and Peak). I noticed several times both early in the season and late-February where the weather was prime for snowmaking but the guns weren't on. Seemed like a very Rockies/West Coast vibe to think what they were doing was sufficient.
> 
> 
> The only thing good about the North Expansion is the parking.


Agree about the parking especially coming in from the west.

Downside allowed them to not run the west quad midweek.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Vail bought some real estate on Main Street in Hunter. (2.5m?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7717 Main Street, Hunter, NY 12442 | Compass
> 
> 
> 7717 Main Street, Hunter, NY 12442 is a mixed use property not currently listed. This is a 6-bed, 5-bath, 6,152 sqft property.
> 
> 
> 
> www.compass.com


Maybe they’ll move Headquarters there.

_"Vail did not immediately respond to a request for comment about staying at its location."_



https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2022/09/02/colorado-broomfield-vail-resorts-building-sale.html?utm_source=sy&utm_medium=nsyp&utm_campaign=yh


----------



## TheGreatAbyss

snoloco said:


> but two of the 3 main trails needed to be rerated to black after one year.


Was this because of the deaths? I don't recall them being terribly steep


----------



## Zykamps

TheGreatAbyss said:


> Was this because of the deaths? I don't recall them being terribly steep


Pitched badly askew. Go down and you're headed for the trees. Plus steep enough especially if icy.


----------



## raisingarizona

snoloco said:


> Unfortunately, I think the North expansion was a total flop. It was meant to expand intermediate terrain, but two of the 3 main trails needed to be rerated to black after one year. It doesn't seem to get nearly the snowmaking priority that the front side gets, and they never staff the ticket window over there anymore, even on weekends. I'm not sure it brought in the additional skier visits as intended, or even pulled lines away from the main 6 pack. While I still like the terrain, this is my analysis of it. Unfortunately, it's hard to make any expansion profitable without a real estate component to it.


I’m surprised ski areas still have manned windows for day passes. You’d think that would be all electronic with ATM like machines at the base.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> I’m surprised ski areas still have manned windows for day passes. You’d think that would be all electronic with ATM like machines at the base.


There are plenty of machines around for lift tickets. However, there are also plenty of people . . . not just seniors . . . who can't figure out how to use a machine or simply want to talk with (argue with?) a person.

The pandemic pushed the timeline for moving to digital approaches for lift tickets for many small to medium resorts, including those owned by VR. When VR bought Peak, the small hills in the midwest and mid-Atlantic weren't all keeping up with technology.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> ... When VR bought Peak, the small hills in the midwest and mid-Atlantic weren't all keeping up with technology.


like making snow and being open so folks could ski.


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> like making snow and being open so folks could ski.


That has nothing to do with how people buy or pick up lift tickets in person.

The small resorts VR bought in the midwest separately or from the Peak Resorts purchase mostly were doing fine in the snowmaking department. Most wouldn't have still been in business without decent snowmaking. What had fallen behind were the chairlifts. Also, I don't think any of them had RFID or were even thinking of the advantages of making the investment. In contrast to independent mountains like Jiminy Peak or Wachusetts that installed RFID relatively early for New England.


----------



## tirolski

MarzNC said:


> That has nothing to do with how people buy or pick up lift tickets in person.


Yup.
But it has to do with F Vail.


----------



## tirolski

Seems Vail’s citizens don’t like Vail Resorts Inc’s actions.








Vail residents turn out to back Town Council against Vail Resorts


VAIL — A number of residents Tuesday, Sept. 6 came to town hall to show support for the Vail Town Council’s decision to acquire by condemnation a parcel in East Vail. The Vail Town Council kicks off every...




www.summitdaily.com


----------



## Brownski

It’s the local nimby element there rather than Vail Inc. but it is all related. If you’re gonna have a big resort, you need to have affordable housing for the people that work there. If you’re gonna arrange it so the only place for them to live is fifty miles away you need to build sufficient roads that everyone isn’t stuck idling in a traffic jam and you need to pay them enough to buy the gas to commute. It would be better if everyone could cooperate a little


----------



## raisingarizona

Brownski said:


> It’s the local nimby element there rather than Vail Inc. but it is all related. If you’re gonna have a big resort, you need to have affordable housing for the people that work there. If you’re gonna arrange it so the only place for them to live is fifty miles away you need to build sufficient roads that everyone isn’t stuck idling in a traffic jam and you need to pay them enough to buy the gas to commute. It would be better if everyone could cooperate a little


That's a whole lot of big picture thinking and planning Brownski that I'm afraid humans aren't very capable of.


----------



## tirolski

MTN stock for Vail Resorts Inc. went down ~3,5% today & they’ve been buying back shares.
Their last year’s chart looks like a nice bump run down hill. Fuck them.


----------



## Peter Minde

tirolski said:


> Vail Resorts workers say efforts to improve employee experience at odds with class-action settlement
> 
> 
> Amid Vail Resorts efforts to present itself as a company that prioritizes resort talent, a lawsuit involving many of the company's employees isn't helping that end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com


Ya know.... the business model Vail has for instructors sounds a lot like the business model health clubs have for personal trainers: lots of un paid work off the clock.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> MTN stock for Vail Resorts Inc. went down ~3,5% today & they’ve been buying back shares.
> Their last year’s chart looks like a nice bump run down hill. Fuck them.


Yup.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573852441988079616


----------



## RichTee

To bad for them.............


----------



## tirolski

Well they at least used the word “snowmaking" once in their 4Q/Full Year press release.









Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2022 Fourth Quarter and Full Year Results, Provides Fiscal 2023 Outlook and Announces 2023 Capital Plan


Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE: MTN) today reported results for the fourth quarter and fiscal year ended July 31, 2022, which was negatively impacted by COVID-19 and related limitations and restrictions, and reported results of season-to-date season pass sales. Vail Resorts also provided its outlook...




finance.yahoo.com




"_Including shares repurchased during the fourth quarter, for the year ended July 31, 2022, the Company repurchased 304,567 shares of common stock at an average price of $246.27 for a total of approximately $75.0 million. We intend to maintain an opportunistic approach to share repurchases."_

And never used the word “snow”. Imagine that.


----------



## tirolski

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575232105826508800
Imagine that.🤔


----------



## tirolski

In the earnings call transcipt folks used the word “skiing” once.
The word “snow” ain’t found other than in reference to Mount Snow.
Is this any way to run an airline?








Vail Resorts (MTN) Q4 2022 Earnings Call Transcript | The Motley Fool


MTN earnings call for the period ending June 30, 2022.




www.fool.com


----------



## tirolski

Parking pa$$e$ $old out quick at $towe.








On first day of sales, Stowe parking pass plan gets chilly reception


Passes went on sale Tuesday for a controversial new parking plan at Stowe Mountain Resort this season. And based on reactions from skiers and riders we spoke with, the proposal is getting a frosty reception.




www.wcax.com


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Parking pa$$e$ $old out quick at $towe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On first day of sales, Stowe parking pass plan gets chilly reception
> 
> 
> Passes went on sale Tuesday for a controversial new parking plan at Stowe Mountain Resort this season. And based on reactions from skiers and riders we spoke with, the proposal is getting a frosty reception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wcax.com


For completeness . . .

All the articles and posts I've seen imply that there won't be any free parking at Stowe, which is not true.

Paid parking has been happening in the west for a while. Solitude, Snowbird, Alta, Jackson Hole to name a few popular destination resorts for travelers that are also popular with locals.









Getting Here | Stowe


Whether you’re traveling by plane, car, train or shuttle Stowe Mountain Resort is easy to get to and around.




www.stowe.com


----------



## tirolski

Brownski said:


> It’s the local nimby element there rather than Vail Inc. but it is all related. If you’re gonna have a big resort, you need to have affordable housing for the people that work there. If you’re gonna arrange it so the only place for them to live is fifty miles away you need to build sufficient roads that everyone isn’t stuck idling in a traffic jam and you need to pay them enough to buy the gas to commute. It would be better if everyone could cooperate a little


WSJ article about housing near ski mountains. It discusses Saddleback a lot.








U.S. Ski Resorts Pursue Extensive Expansions, Giving Local Home Prices a Major Lift


Upgraded ski lifts, increased snow-making and new real-estate developments may be a big draw for mountain home buyers, but not everybody is happy about the growth.




www.wsj.com




_"Construction of a mid-mountain lodge and employee housing is under way, which should be finished in December, along with the 22-unit A-frame home village and about 60 *“tiny homes,” which range between 280 and 400 square feet and will cost from about $250,000 to $400,000*, says Tom Federle, who is heading Saddleback’s real-estate development."

"Corrections & Amplifications
The tiny homes for sale at Saddleback Mountain will cost between about $250,000 to $400,000. *A previous version of this story said they would cost around $100,000. (Corrected on Oct. 13)"*_
*Emphasis added.*


----------



## tirolski

jasonwx said:


> Ski patrollers at Utah’s largest resort could be headed for a showdown with Vail Resorts.
> 
> On Monday, the Park City Professional Ski Patrol Association (PCPSPA) *voted to stop working* should ownership reject a pay increase. Union leadership announced that 168 of its 171 members voted in favor of going on strike.
> 
> The union has been in negotiations with Vail Resorts about raising its minimum wage since August 2020. The current starting wage for patrollers there is $13.25 per hour. Vail has offered to increase that to $15 per hour, but the union is asking for a $17 per hour minimum as well as a $1 per hour increase after an employee’s first three years of service.
> 
> “A strike authorization does not mean that a walkout is inevitable,” the PCPSPA *wrote online*. “However, it does show that our membership is prepared to participate in a work stoppage if necessary.”
> 
> A strike would likely shut down Park City Mountain Resort during its busiest stretch of the year.
> 
> “Ideally, the company sees this authorization as an indicator of our collective strength and offers us a reasonable contract without requiring further action,” the union said in a statement.
> 
> Last week a representative from Vail Resorts told the_ Salt Lake Tribune_ that the company is preparing for a potential strike. The newspaper *recently reported* that a Vail employee contacted ski patrollers in New Hampshire, offering $600 a day and travel expenses to come work in Utah in the event of a strike. A Vail Resorts spokesperson said the email was unauthorized.


Now the dang electricians and lift fixit folks wanna join them and unionize at Park City.








						Park City Lift Mechanics File Petition to Unionize
					

SAM Magazine—Park City, Utah, Oct. 12, 2022—A group of lift mechanics and electricians at Vail Resorts-owned Park City Mountain, Utah, filed a petition wit




					www.saminfo.com


----------



## tirolski

Seems Vail Resorts Inc didn’t buyback any stock in July 2022 as the price dropped lower than previous 2 months when they actually bought some.




Hindsights 20:20 but they may have been better off buying Togg instead of pissing away > $ million.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Now the dang electricians and lift fixit folks wanna join them and unionize at Park City.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Park City Lift Mechanics File Petition to Unionize
> 
> 
> SAM Magazine—Park City, Utah, Oct. 12, 2022—A group of lift mechanics and electricians at Vail Resorts-owned Park City Mountain, Utah, filed a petition wit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.saminfo.com


The local “paper” wrote an editorial on the goings on there.








Record editorial: PCMR mechanics, electricians deserve fair compensation


Utah is, of course, a right-to-work state, meaning labor unions here lack the power that they hold in states that are not classified as such. The labor movement in Utah is sometimes loud and visible,...




www.parkrecord.com


----------



## tirolski

Experience of a lifetime if yer a fish, frog or turtle.








Beaver Creek’s McCoy Park expansion wasn’t without its environmental problems


While the environmental issues at Vail Resorts’ Keystone ski area expansion caught the attention of the media this summer, the company has largely escaped the public eye regarding problems related to the expansion of Beaver...




www.vaildaily.com




_"Those observations noted that the potential discharge of pollutants to the water of the state didn’t just include sediment, but also waste from construction materials, oil and grease, and sanitary waste from a portable toilet in the area.

The 11 observations of deficiencies included a portable toilet in an area exposed to wind and not staked down on a flat surface away from drainage paths; empty 5-gallon containers of hydraulic oil not properly disposed of; and numerous observations related to inadequate sediment control measures in areas where stormwater flows through construction and discharges into wetlands."_


----------



## Tjf1967

tirolski said:


> Experience of a lifetime if yer a fish, frog or turtle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beaver Creek’s McCoy Park expansion wasn’t without its environmental problems
> 
> 
> While the environmental issues at Vail Resorts’ Keystone ski area expansion caught the attention of the media this summer, the company has largely escaped the public eye regarding problems related to the expansion of Beaver...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vaildaily.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Those observations noted that the potential discharge of pollutants to the water of the state didn’t just include sediment, but also waste from construction materials, oil and grease, and sanitary waste from a portable toilet in the area.
> 
> The 11 observations of deficiencies included a portable toilet in an area exposed to wind and not staked down on a flat surface away from drainage paths; empty 5-gallon containers of hydraulic oil not properly disposed of; and numerous observations related to inadequate sediment control measures in areas where stormwater flows through construction and discharges into wetlands."_


Take a walk around the property of any ski resort during the summer. It will make you sick to see the junk they leave around after doing work.


----------



## tirolski

Tjf1967 said:


> Take a walk around the property of any ski resort during the summer. It will make you sick to see the junk they leave around after doing work.


Filthy animals.


----------



## Ripitz

Tjf1967 said:


> Take a walk around the property of any ski resort during the summer. It will make you sick to see the junk they leave around after doing work.


Not to mention the skiers.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Tjf1967 said:


> Take a walk around the property of any ski resort during the summer. It will make you sick to see the junk they leave around after doing work.


Absolutely. It's like one big Superfund site at some areas.


----------



## raisingarizona

D.B. Cooper said:


> Absolutely. It's like one big Superfund site at some areas.


Yep, loosely sealed toxic waste containers, radioactive materials and piles of dead endangered species everywhere.


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> Yep, loosely sealed toxic waste containers, radioactive materials and piles of dead endangered species everywhere.


It’s the new thing.
Remember the most recent winter Olympics.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490815458219491328


----------



## gorgonzola

Tjf1967 said:


> Take a walk around the property of any ski resort during the summer. It will make you sick to see the junk they leave around


some places you don't even need to wait til summer


----------



## Benny Profane

Ripitz said:


> Not to mention the skiers.


They found a dead skier in the back bowl of Vail a few years ago. He was missing since the winter.


----------



## Brownski

Benny Profane said:


> They found a dead skier in the back bowl of Vail a few years ago. He was missing since the winter.


I remember that. I think it happens from time to time. I remember a story of a guy driving over a snow bank and off one of the elevated highway ramps in Albany when I was a kid. It was in the middle of a snow storm so the car got buried and nobody knew what happened until the snow melted in the spring. As far as anybody knew at the time, he just disappeared. My dad said the cops told the guys wife he probably abandoned her and the kids and ran off.


----------



## raisingarizona

errybody gotta die at some point.....


----------



## tirolski

raisingarizona said:


> errybody gotta die at some point.....


Vuck Fail.


----------



## tirolski

Ya’d think Vail Resorts Inc. would mention the word snow or skiing at least once in their latest blurb.








Vail Resorts Announces Kenny Thompson, Jr. as Company’s First Chief Public Affairs Officer | Vail Resorts Corporate






news.vailresorts.com




Nope. WTF.


----------



## Benny Profane

raisingarizona said:


> errybody gotta die at some point.....


Not me. Maybe get a little sick and creaky, but, not gonna die.


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Ya’d think Vail Resorts Inc. would mention the word snow or skiing at least once in their latest blurb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts Announces Kenny Thompson, Jr. as Company’s First Chief Public Affairs Officer | Vail Resorts Corporate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.vailresorts.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. WTF.


That man has some serious level bullshit creation on his resume. Soda pop and the White House.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> That man has some serious level bullshit creation on his resume. Soda pop and the White House.


Fail's current CEO also came over from Pepsi to run the biggest Skiing Company in the world.
No wonder they don’t talk snow or skiing.
They may know something about CO2 and high fructose corn syrup but I doubt it.


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> WTF? Don’t we have monopoly laws? When do they kick in?


Anybody hear of the Pennsylvania Attorney General going after Vail Resorts Inc. when they purchased the 3 resorts outside of Pittsburgh for monopolizing downhill skiing? Nope.



Between Baltimore and Pittsburg in Pennsylvania is all ya get now are Fail’s sh!t-no-snow-shows?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

tirolski said:


> Anybody hear of the Pennsylvania Attorney General going after Vail Resorts Inc. when they purchased the 3 resorts outside of Pittsburgh for monopolizing downhill skiing? Nope.


Back when the consolidation first began (1990s?) the FTC made Ralston sell ABasin when it owned Keystone and Copper or Breckinridge. AAFIK that was the last federal antitrust action in the ski business which is now almost completely monopolized. 

mm


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Back when the consolidation first began (1990s?) the FTC made Ralston sell ABasin when it owned Keystone and Copper or Breckinridge. AAFIK that was the last federal antitrust action in the ski business which is now almost completely monopolized.
> 
> mm


The Togg-Greek-Lab-Song thingy🍺 NY’s AG just brought to break up the huge Cuse skiing monopoly wasn’t the fed's.
Has any other state brought suit for skiing monopolies?


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Between Baltimore and Pittsburg in Pennsylvania is all ya get now are Fail’s sh!t-no-snow-shows?


Not exactly. There is still Blue Knob, which has issues because the slopes are in a state park. Most of the Pittsburgh die hards make the drive to Timberline if they want more exciting skiing than can be found at 7Springs or Hidden Valley. I gather Laurel Mountain is fun but it's a day trip area, not a place for a family for a weekend now and then.






Ski PA - PSAA - Home


Pennsylvania Ski Areas Association for the state of PA ski areas. Check out our Learn to Ski and Snowboard programs.




www.skipa.com





As for people who live in Baltimore, they are much more likely to drive north than west.

The folks who live in the DC/NoVA metro area are the ones who are pretty stuck with Liberty and Whitetail. They haven't been happy since Snowtime was sold to Peak Resorts. Although they are starting to learn about the Indy Pass, which includes Massanutten, Bryce, and Canaan Valley. With Timberline such a fun place and a mostly 4-lane highway to Davis, WV, more people are heading there instead of doing the longer drive to Snowshoe.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Has any other state brought suit for skiing monopolies?


It looks like Maine went after American Skiing Company/Sunday River in ’96.





Maine v. American Skiing Co./Sunday River, 1996-2 Trade Cas. 71,478 (Me., June 27, 1996) - National Association of Attorneys General


Merger of two largest ski area operators in Northern New England approved with conditions.




www.naag.org


----------



## Brownski

I worked for ASC once


----------



## tirolski

Kindred? Looks like this cat fight stinks at Keystone.








$300M Keystone project, Kindred Resort, marred by big-dollar lawsuits, allegations of crime


The co-developer of a $300 million resort in Keystone says $8 million went missing from the project and the firm was then pushed out for revealing the other developer’s bank fraud. That developer accused of...




www.summitdaily.com




_"But beyond the boastful press releases and smiley groundbreakings, there are lawsuits sitting at courthouses in New York City and Breckenridge that reveal deep and lasting animosity between the two firms picked by Vail Resorts to co-develop the project. The result could be costly litigation, with each side demanding the other pay tens of millions of dollars."_


----------



## Peter Minde

To pile on or not to pile on? That is the question. 



https://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/with-a-surge-of-skiers-stowe-struggles-to-manage-traffic-jams-and-parking-woes/Content?oid=36886589


----------



## Benny Profane

Peter Minde said:


> To pile on or not to pile on? That is the question.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/with-a-surge-of-skiers-stowe-struggles-to-manage-traffic-jams-and-parking-woes/Content?oid=36886589


That article didn't start well when it highlighted a slacker snowboarder who decided to get to the mountain, any mountain, at 9 am on a Saturday morning and expect to find a decent parking space, if any. No sympathy.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Benny Profane said:


> No sympathy.


Agreed, 100%.


----------



## Peter Minde

Benny Profane said:


> That article didn't start well when it highlighted a slacker snowboarder who decided to get to the mountain, any mountain, at 9 am on a Saturday morning and expect to find a decent parking space, if any. No sympathy.


LOL, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten to Prospect Mt or Notchview earlier than my friends who are local.


----------



## LostCosmonaut

Benny Profane said:


> That article didn't start well when it highlighted a slacker snowboarder who decided to get to the mountain, any mountain, at 9 am on a Saturday morning and expect to find a decent parking space, if any. No sympathy.


Out here at Targhee parking's usually pretty slim by 8:30 on most weekends, and that's not an epic resort and it's pretty remote. Showing up that late at Stowe is nuts. (from what I remember even at Gore you'd be punted to one of the farther lots if you didn't show until chairs were spinning)


----------



## Benny Profane

I don't ski Saturdays.


----------



## tirolski

Park City already lists 81” of snow so far and reports a 46” base but not a lift or trail is open.
Whataway to run an airline. 🤔
Are they waiting for the go ahead from downtown Broomfield?
https://www.parkcitymountain.com/the-mountain/mountain-conditions/snow-and-weather-report.


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Park City already lists 81” of snow so far and reports a 46” base but not a lift or trail is open.
> Whataway to run an airline. 🤔
> Are they waiting for the go ahead from downtown Broomfield?
> https://www.parkcitymountain.com/the-mountain/mountain-conditions/snow-and-weather-report.


And, on the other end of the spectrum, Powdr is busily building a huge bonfire out of a million dollars and lighting it on fire to please the FIS gods at Killington, which has basically experienced summer temps for a few weeks.


----------



## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Park City already lists 81” of snow so far and reports a 46” base but not a lift or trail is open.
> Whataway to run an airline. 🤔
> Are they waiting for the go ahead from downtown Broomfield?
> https://www.parkcitymountain.com/the-mountain/mountain-conditions/snow-and-weather-report.


Look like Broomfield gave ‘em the go ahead to open someofit next Wednesday.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591083441197838340


----------



## MarzNC

tirolski said:


> Look like Broomfield gave ‘em the go ahead to open someofit next Wednesday.



Interesting. Opening on Nov. 16 means getting a 2-day jump on Alta and Snowbird. Alta changed to Nov. 18 after the first big snowstorm. Snowbird only recently changed from Nov. 30 to Nov. 18. Solitude was the first to open on Nov. 11, with a few hours the day before for passholders. Per usual Brighton waited until the day before that they would open on Nov. 11.

Opening on a Wednesday means Park City staff can get the kinks out before Friday and the weekend.

I would guess opening a couple days early doesn't really make that much difference to locals who have an Epic pass to ski Park City. Most probably aren't the type who want to chase early season powder. in-bounds. Those people ski LCC/BCC, not Park City or Deer Valley.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> No sympathy.


The jury had sympathy in this one.








Vail Resorts ordered to pay $2.4 million after bowling ball injury at company-sponsored party


Vail Resorts, owner of Park City Mountain Resort, has recently been ordered by the court to pay a $2.4 million settlement following a bowling incident on April 4, 2019, at an end-of-the-season comp…




www.abc4.com





_"Herzog’s lawyers asked for a $1 million settlement during closing arguments, but the jury ordered the defendants to pay over double that amount, totaling $2,402,000."_


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## Harvey

Is this news? I forget.









Stowe Resort unveils new ticket policy for peak days


If you’re looking to ski Stowe this year during popular weekends, the resort is trying something new.




www.wcax.com


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## tirolski

tirolski said:


> The jury had sympathy in this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts ordered to pay $2.4 million after bowling ball injury at company-sponsored party
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts, owner of Park City Mountain Resort, has recently been ordered by the court to pay a $2.4 million settlement following a bowling incident on April 4, 2019, at an end-of-the-season comp…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.abc4.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Herzog’s lawyers asked for a $1 million settlement during closing arguments, but the jury ordered the defendants to pay over double that amount, totaling $2,402,000."_


Looks like Vail's looking for new and/or another lawyer.





Mountain Resorts Counsel (Remote)


Mountain Resorts Counsel (Remote)




jobs.vailresortscareers.com


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## tirolski

tirolski said:


> Well they at least used the word “snowmaking" once in their 4Q/Full Year press release.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2022 Fourth Quarter and Full Year Results, Provides Fiscal 2023 Outlook and Announces 2023 Capital Plan
> 
> 
> Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE: MTN) today reported results for the fourth quarter and fiscal year ended July 31, 2022, which was negatively impacted by COVID-19 and related limitations and restrictions, and reported results of season-to-date season pass sales. Vail Resorts also provided its outlook...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finance.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "_Including shares repurchased during the fourth quarter, for the year ended July 31, 2022, the Company repurchased 304,567 shares of common stock at an average price of $246.27 for a total of approximately $75.0 million. We intend to maintain an opportunistic approach to share repurchases."_
> 
> And never used the word “snow”. Imagine that.


Yup. They came out with their new 1Q earnings report after the close.
The word snow was used twice in reference to Australia and again in forward looking statements regarding disruption of water supply.
The word snowmaking was used once in reference to Europe (Sedrun.-intermediate trail snowmaking improvement plans )








Vail Resorts Reports Fiscal 2023 First Quarter and Season Pass Results


Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE: MTN) today reported results for the first quarter of fiscal 2023 ended October 31, 2022, provided season pass sales results, reaffirmed its guidance for Resort Reported EBITDA for fiscal 2023, provided additional detail on its calendar year 2023 capital plan and...




finance.yahoo.com




Never mentioned the “epic” snow going on out westin the early season.
Why not?


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## tirolski

Appears their earning conference call is delayed for a couple hours according to Liftblog.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601004723712102401Hope their Mtn Ops folks ain’t trained in Broomfield.


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## tirolski

Announced call being rescheduled till tomorrow morning after a 3 hour wait.
Must be delays pair well with their operations model.


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## Benny Profane

Reminds me of my two hour wait at Hunter along with a few hundred others in the parking lot wondering when the mountain would open, only to hear that, due to "staffing issues", they weren't opening. Still waiting for at least an e-mail form letter apology for that one. Maybe when the temperature starts dropping fast in hell.


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## Andy_ROC

Benny Profane said:


> Reminds me of my two hour wait at Hunter along with a few hundred others in the parking lot wondering when the mountain would open, only to hear that, due to "staffing issues", they weren't opening. Still waiting for at least an e-mail form letter apology for that one. Maybe when the temperature starts dropping fast in hell.


Was that this season?


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## Tjf1967

Andy_ROC said:


> Was that this season?


OMG you don't remember that. He whined for a week


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## Benny Profane

Yup and I will continue to use that story as a means to say that Vail sucks. It's remarkable to me in this day and age that happened. Just a simple E-mail, that's all I would expect. Nope, nada. Awful CS. They are so arrogant that they act as though they're the only game in town. Maybe to local locals, like the poor Stowe or Vail homeowners (haha, poor) but not me and millions of others. Or, maybe it's just clueless incompetence. That would amaze me, considering the shareholder money wrapped up in the business of hospitality.
They were able to get away with this crap for years when money was free, just gobbling up mountains and ignoring customer experience, because it all Excel sheeted nicely at earnings time, but it's a different world now that money isn't free, and I hope it screws them up as much as it's messing with the tech bros who were treated like business Gods. Unfortunately, some mountains are going to go down, especially in the East, when they really have to cut costs, and who will step in and save them? Won't be Vail, everybody's mythical savior for a decade and a half.

I blame Katz. Dude barely skis. And, even though she's CEO, I have a feeling he's still running shit into the ground as chairman or whatever he is. Probably still rides around in the jet. With his family.


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## Benny Profane

Another thing about marketing and CS. Can't argue that I'm their perfect demographic. Serious skier, retired with time to travel, a bank account. And yet, since I've been gone, not one, "hey, where ya been? Coming back? Here's a deal. Here's what's new in Vail World" Nope. Nada. Every other thing I buy these days, especially on the internet, is followed by a how did we do survey. Never from them. It's like they really could care less.


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## tirolski

They finally got their shit together for their 1Q earnings Q & A telephone thingy 🍺 this morning.








Vail Resorts, Inc. (MTN) Q1 2023 Earnings Call Transcript


Vail Resorts, Inc. (NYSE:NYSE:MTN) Q1 2023 Earnings Conference Call December 9, 2022 8:30 AM ET Company Participants Kirsten Lynch - Chief Executive Officer Michael Barkin - Executive Vice...




seekingalpha.com




As expected “Snow” ❄️ wasn’t mentioned other than the planned snowmaking improvement on intermitate trails at Sedrun in Yurp.

The pre-commitment, ancillary attachment, ancillary capture discussion said something.
It ain’t about skiing. It’s about $$.


Benny Profane said:


> I blame Katz. Dude barely skis.


Rumor has it Katz ski’s in designer jeans.


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## Benny Profane

Arr arr


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## Ripitz

tirolski said:


> Rumor has it Katz ski’s in designer jeans.


100%











A Q&A with Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz


Ski industry executive sits down for his first local media interview in two years




www.vancouverisawesome.com





_Does Rob Katz Ski in Jeans?

*Pique*: To wrap up, we have a very important question sent to us from the community: Do you indeed ski in jeans?

*RK:* No, I do not ski in jeans, but I think that was somewhat self-evident.

The best thing about that is I got a text from my son, who is in college. Somebody in his fraternity who was in Whistler took a picture of (the “Rob Katz Skis in Jeans” sticker) and sent it to me. So I have it on my phone, and there’s part of me that wants to run out there and put up my own set of stickers.

*Pique:* What would your stickers say?

*RK*: I have shown self-restraint already so I’m not going to (comment). [Laughter] I’m just going to embrace it. And, for the record, because I don’t want there to be any misleading (information) out there, I have skied in jeans, back when I was 10 years old. Hunter Mountain, jeans, gators, that’s exactly where I did my initial skiing. And guess what? Everyone else at Hunter Mountain skied in jeans and New York Jets jerseys. You can’t be snobby. Everyone who learns how to ski comes to this sport in different ways._


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## Benny Profane

From what I can gather in interviews (which are really hard to take because he spews bad corp speak) is that his only connection to skiing is that. Bus or family trip to Hunter from Jersey. Not many. Then he buckled down in school to become a finance titan, not really skiing much. He doesnt seem to have a wiki to show his bio and education. He sort of fell into this CEO job while working very high up in the financial maze (its always those guys) that eventually owned the place, and my funny fantasy guess is that, when they wanted somebody to run Vail assets, they called out, hey, who skis? and Rob said, hey, me, Huntah boy! You got it Rob. Now fix it. He returned well for years, but, left a real mess.


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## Benny Profane

No way he's on skis that long.


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## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> From what I can gather in interviews (which are really hard to take because he spews bad corp speak) is that his only connection to skiing is that. Bus or family trip to Hunter from Jersey. Not many. Then he buckled down in school to become a finance titan, not really skiing much. He doesnt seem to have a wiki to show his bio and education. He sort of fell into this CEO job while working very high up in the financial maze (its always those guys) that eventually owned the place, and my funny fantasy guess is that, when they wanted somebody to run Vail assets, they called out, hey, who skis? and Rob said, hey, me, Huntah boy! You got it Rob. Now fix it. He returned well for years, but, left a real mess.


And turned the reigns over to a marketing wizard from Pepsi.
At least at Pepsi ya can just put that shit on a shelf or in a tap untill some sucker buys it.


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## Benny Profane

She sold addictive substances.

She's responsible for the incredubly bland and soulless websites. That's her before she was CEO. It scares me to think how little serious grey matter is under her hair.


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## tirolski

Three runs in three hours at $towe. Seems they made some $ on the ancillary attachment beer though.





Stowe Thread


Cant.....wait....to get back... Although no complaint with 2 days at Hunter..very good conditions...




forums.alpinezone.com


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## Harvey

Um. WTAF.


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## sig

Looks like I will never ski Stowe again. Which is a bummer. The experience sounds awful.


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## Harvey

The guy says he "loves the fact that he can ski Stowe because of the Epic Pass" after ranting about crowding and paid parking.

They cut the cost of (arguably) the northeast's most premium/luxury ski product by 70% and now it's crowded, and they are charging $30 for parking. A shocking turn of events.

I want lift tickets for a dollar, and I want to be the only one on the mountain.


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## raisingarizona

Heck yeah! Go get em Harv!


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## Benny Profane

Breck. I have heard it is their highest ticket count in the, ahem, portfolio. Maybe the highest skier visit total in the country. Certainly next week. Merry Xmas.









Chair Falls from High Speed Quad at Breckenridge


A quad chair detached from Breckenridge’s Peak 8 SuperConnect today as high winds buffeted the Central Rockies region. The below video shows the upbound chair came to rest just below the upper term…




liftblog.com


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## not2brite

Harvey said:


> They cut the cost of (arguably) the northeast's most premium/luxury ski product by 70% and now it's crowded, and they are charging $30 for parking. A shocking turn of events.


For all the complaining about Vail this makes the least amount of sense to me. Why is paying for parking such a deal breaker for these people if it is still cheaper overall than it used to be when a single pass was north of $2,000?


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## Harvey

not2brite said:


> For all the complaining about Vail this makes the least amount of sense to me. Why is paying for parking such a deal breaker for these people if it is still cheaper overall than it used to be when a single pass was north of $2,000?



If you ski 40 days Fri-Sun and Holidays, you are back at that $2000. And the old method of charging $2000 was way more convenient, and less crowded on the hill and in line.

Carpooling is a way around it, but also not "convenient" I guess.


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## not2brite

I guess my point is paid parking was always going to be the first and most obvious up charge. Traffic and standing in lift lines all day would be my biggest gripes and the reasons that would send me elsewhere.


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## raisingarizona

not2brite said:


> I guess my point is paid parking was always going to be the first and most obvious up charge. Traffic and standing in lift lines all day would be my biggest gripes and the reasons that would send me elsewhere.


To be fair, the lines and paid parking seem to go hand and hand


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## raisingarizona

Note: it’s actually hand in hand. 

I had to look it up.


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## Brownski

raisingarizona said:


> Note: it’s actually hand in hand.
> 
> I had to look it up.


I knew what you meant


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## MarzNC

not2brite said:


> For all the complaining about Vail this makes the least amount of sense to me. Why is paying for parking such a deal breaker for these people if it is still cheaper overall than it used to be when a single pass was north of $2,000?


Some of the complainers probably didn't have a $2K season pass for Stowe before the purchase by VR in 2017. They may be people who used Liftopia or other ways to get discounted day tickets for skiing in the northeast. 

What's different for Stowe is that the ski resort and town don't have a history of working together to provide public transportation. Quite a contrast to Vail Mountain, Aspen/Snowmass, Winter Park, or Telluride in Colorado. I know locals were concerned about parking issues by 2014.


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## snoloco

The whole point of having a season pass is to reduce your per-visit cost as much as possible. Paid parking adds a significant additional expense every time you go that you can't avoid. It's really a way to stick it to passholders who visit a lot on day trips. If you only visit Stowe once or twice a year, then maybe paying 30 dollars parking isn't a big deal for that one trip, or you're more likely staying in lodging that has a shuttle. However, if you're skiing on the weekends and going 30-40 times a year, then you're going to pay more for parking than you did for your pass.

As for the guy in the earlier post, it sounds like he was there on that horrible day when the Fourrunner Quad went down. That happened at literally the worst possible time because they didn't have terrain open off the gondola or either of the high speed quads at Spruce. Their shiny new 6 pack also wasn't ready yet. This left them with just a double as the only lift serving non-beginner terrain. This obviously resulted in massive lift lines that only got shorter when people got frustrated and left. While they did refund tickets for anyone who took just one run and gave up, they did not refund anyone's parking fees. This was in my opinion inexcusable. The lift failure was a worst-case scenario where they didn't have any other decent lifts available. It would've been easy to just take a mulligan and refund everyone's parking, but they chose not to. They also could've been less restrictive on refunding tickets.

I remember years ago when Mountain Creek had a disaster of a weekend, marred by frozen pipes in the lodge and multiple lift failures. They refunded everyone's tickets, even those who skied all day. Yes, it cost them more money then sticking it to those who skied the whole day, but it was the right thing to do.


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## Low Angle Life

Vail and more specifically Epic Pass broke Stowe Resort plain and simple. A _luxury_ experience is incompatible with something as non exclusive as Epic Pass, it's akin to flying first class at this point. Parking fee's weren't going to fix it and better public transit would likely have little impact, the place was near its capacity before the Vail purchase and Vermont law will prevent any development that would be capable of improving the situation from ever happening.


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## Benny Profane

Deer Valley is experiencing the same.


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## Harvey

Good analysis @snoloco.



snoloco said:


> The whole point of having a season pass is to reduce your per-visit cost as much as possible.



You could also say...

The whole point of having a season pass is to reduce the operator's weather risk as much as possible.



Low Angle Life said:


> A _luxury_ experience is incompatible with something as non exclusive as Epic Pass



Fact.


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## MarzNC

Benny Profane said:


> Deer Valley is experiencing the same.


Deer Valley is not on Epic.

DV is not unlimited for Ikon holders. Has been limited to 5/7 days from the start.


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## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> The whole point of having a season pass


For me it's not having to wait in line to get my pass. Heading directly to the lift is well worth it, imo.


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## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> For me it's not having to wait in line to get my pass. Heading directly to the lift is well worth it, imo.


I like the option to go bust out some guilt free hot laps for an afternoon or just a couple of hours. I’d feel committed to a full day if I bought a day pass.

When Snowbowl goes to paid parking I’ll be done going there.


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## raisingarizona

MarzNC said:


> Deer Valley is not on Epic.
> 
> DV is not unlimited for Ikon holders. Has been limited to 5/7 days from the start.


Sure but their Ikon status has still changed their experience from what I hear. 

DV’s choice to become part of ikon still leaves me scratching my head. It cheapens (not in a good way) their product I’d imagine.


----------



## MarzNC

raisingarizona said:


> Sure but their Ikon status has still changed their experience from what I hear.
> 
> DV’s choice to become part of ikon still leaves me scratching my head. It cheapens (not in a good way) their product I’d imagine.


DV was bought be Alterra in 2017. Alterra was able to buy Solitude a bit later. Not really a choice to keep an Alterra resort off Ikon. At the same time, DV still has it's own 1-location season pass for a premium price. Solitude also has 1-location passes for locals.

The former DV owners had bought Solitude in 2014. Back then Boyne Resorts wanted to buy Solitude but couldn't come up with the financing required. I gather Boyne Resorts had eyes on Solitude long before that when they were considering where to expand in the west. DV was a family-owned resort that didn't have younger generations interested in staying in the ski business.

Things were changing in the SLC area before MCP and Ikon. Just as changes in the Front Range in Colorado aren't all due to Epic/Ikon. Consider if the population of SLC/Ogden and Denver/Boulder/Colorado Springs were the same as in 2010,


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> For me it's not having to wait in line to get my pass. Heading directly to the lift is well worth it, imo.


Dang Camp. 👍 
It’s present tense... ya gonna go get some?


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Dang Camp. 👍
> It’s present tense... ya gonna go get some?


I do have a pass 
I'm sure I'll lace em up at some point, but only if I can't ride sled. It also needs to snow....lol


----------



## Benny Profane

raisingarizona said:


> Sure but their Ikon status has still changed their experience from what I hear.
> 
> DV’s choice to become part of ikon still leaves me scratching my head. It cheapens (not in a good way) their product I’d imagine.


Yeah, uh, my point was, Epic, Ikon, same thing. Like Republican, Democrat. Although Ikon is better, at the moment.

My head is scratched, too. I always thought the whole point of DV was keeping out people like me.


----------



## Brownski

Benny
What pass did you get this year?


----------



## Harvey

Benny Profane said:


> I always thought the whole point of DV was keeping out people like me.



This is absolutely Epic, Benny.


----------



## Benny Profane

Ikon, and a Ski3 frequent skier card. 

Still no turns yet. Please stop raining. Funny, though, I checked the cams at both Stratton and Killington at high traffic spots on Monday at 2pm, and, nobody there. And, it wasn't that cold.


----------



## Benny Profane

Harvey said:


> This is absolutely Epic, Benny.


Someday I'll tell you my only black person at DV story, but, that might offend here. It's funny, though, in a time of rapidly increasing inequality, especially in skiing, DV has become somewhat more egalitarian. As long as you don't try actually buying and moving in.


----------

