# Uphill Battle



## Ripitz

I’m sorry, I have to vent. As an avid skier and occasional uphiller I just don’t understand what the big deal is about letting people tour inbounds. I’m not advocating a go wherever whenever policy but ski areas should really start to recognize this fast growing segment of our sport and allow and maybe even promote this healthy endeavor. Of course there are a few ski areas that allow it and they should be applauded. I have enjoyed being part of the dawn patrol at Whiteface but this years policies are crazy. $129 for three days a week between 6-8:30am? It reminds me of caddy day at Bushwood, “caddies welcome 1-1:15”. Wear a strobe, sign a waiver, get a signed permission slip from your mother and leave us your checkbook. OK maybe that’s too far... but I’d rather go ski the toll road. I understand it’s problematic for patrol and mountain operations but it seems there could be ways to resolve most concerns. We share the roads with cars, bikes, pedestrians and now, like it or not, ebikes. If someone cannot avoid an uphiller going 2mph up the side of a designated trail then I think they are the one that should not be on the mountain. (Know the code) I’m happy this activity is gaining popularity, I’m just disappointed in the lack of policies that promote it. I remember Jake Carpenter selling his Burton boards in the parking lot at Stratton and none of the ski areas allowed it. Now look at that sport, the knuckledraggers are everywhere! 
What are your thoughts? Am I the only one who’s frustrated?


----------



## Tjf1967

Pretty funny stuff. Head in from the reservoir and come out at the porcine.


----------



## rebel1916

Everybody wants something for nothing. I've got 4 days of human powered alpine skiing this year and not one was at a functioning ski area, although a couple were at long defunct areas.


----------



## riverc0il

I wish there were less policies, not more policies. Areas that have adopted uphill policies have been extremely unfavorable for uphillers, to the point that I am surprised any one actually pays for the experience. I am all for good uphill policies and I am fine with payment structures to help pay for the man made snow. But it has to have, at the least, some benefits.

I think Magic is one of the few exceptions, I recall their policies are friendly. MRG is solid, they just don't want you uphilling while the area is open, pretty much fair game at all other times. Can't think of any other areas with a favorable policy for turn earners.


----------



## JTG

So, those with local knowledge and/or more experience touring dump on someone with a point worth discussing, while totally missing the point? Nice!

Sorry TJ, your response was too cryptic for me (given my lack of local knowledge) but it seems the general point was ‘ha, ha...quit your bitching, there’s other places than WF/ski resorts to skin’? Rebel....I don’t believe it’s about people ‘wanting something for nothing’, but good for you and your superior abilities to get after it?

I can sympathize with Ripitz point. Not being someone who wants something for nothing (I usually pay for a WF uphill pass...but not in this year of gouging), I agree that more resorts should be uphill friendly, especially resorts on public lands. While it doesn’t have to be free (although some are), there should be access policies that encourage people to get into touring, rather than policies like WF’s this year which I can only assume is designed to discourage uphill users. I do agree that touring is destined to be a bigger part of the sport moving forward, and that’s something ski providers should encourage and embrace. While there are people out there like Rebel who are willing and able to go off on their own, there are others who want to get their feet wet with easier entry, so resorts should facilitate that....both for the good of the sport and to generate customers and revenue.


----------



## Tjf1967

No it was a funny post he had. Go up the hiking trail and come out on porcupine lodge. Don't read to much into my posts.
I wouldn't pay to walk up a hill when they're is another one right across the street. Early season is tough I guess but just to cross country on light gear until the big lines open up.
Now say your sorry.


----------



## JTG

Tjf1967 said:


> Now say your sorry.


Sorry.


----------



## Ripitz

I ski uphill, I ski downhill, sometimes I go sideways. I ski front, back and accross the parking lot. I poach a lot too, sometimes on the up. All I want is to step out into the light on trails that I pay for with my tax dollars and season pass. They will close an entire trail so people can race down as fast as they can. Is’nt that dangerous? Halfpipes, rails and jumps with flat landings aren’t my thing but I don’t want to ban that. They do however take up a lot of real estate and all we ask for is 6 feet of the side of one trail. I just don’t understand what the big deal is. No policy is a policy in my opinion


----------



## raisingarizona

JTG said:


> So, those with local knowledge and/or more experience touring dump on someone with a point worth discussing, while totally missing the point? Nice!
> 
> Sorry TJ, your response was too cryptic for me (given my lack of local knowledge) but it seems the general point was ‘ha, ha...quit your bitching, there’s other places than WF/ski resorts to skin’? Rebel....I don’t believe it’s about people ‘wanting something for nothing’, but good for you and your superior abilities to get after it?
> 
> I can sympathize with Ripitz point. Not being someone who wants something for nothing (I usually pay for a WF uphill pass...but not in this year of gouging), I agree that more resorts should be uphill friendly, especially resorts on public lands. While it doesn’t have to be free (although some are), there should be access policies that encourage people to get into touring, rather than policies like WF’s this year which I can only assume is designed to discourage uphill users. I do agree that touring is destined to be a bigger part of the sport moving forward, and that’s something ski providers should encourage and embrace. While there are people out there like Rebel who are willing and able to go off on their own, there are others who want to get their feet wet with easier entry, so resorts should facilitate that....both for the good of the sport and to generate customers and revenue.


I’ll take your point a little further or maybe just more abstractly.......???

one could argue that getting their feet wet in a safer, more controlled environment will help keep them safe as they learn and eventually move into a more true back country environment. I think getting the basics in area is a great way to get acquainted with the gear and technique. In a back country setting even the little things or some mishaps with little things can open up a giant can of shit worms.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> I ski uphill, I ski downhill, sometimes I go sideways. I ski front, back and accross the parking lot. I poach a lot too, sometimes on the up. All I want is to step out into the light on trails that I pay for with my tax dollars and season pass. They will close an entire trail so people can race down as fast as they can. Is’nt that dangerous? Halfpipes, rails and jumps with flat landings aren’t my thing but I don’t want to ban that. They do however take up a lot of real estate and all we ask for is 6 feet of the side of one trail. I just don’t understand what the big deal is. No policy is a policy in my opinion


You probably don’t want to hear this but......poaching is one good and valid reason the resorts don’t want uphill traffic.


----------



## JTG

raisingarizona said:


> You probably don’t want to hear this but......poaching is one good and valid reason the resorts don’t want uphill traffic.


True, but resorts can encourage uphill travel without giving uphill-ers free and open access to everything, which I’m ok with.

Granted, out west it is easier and/or there are more reasons to open ‘limited’ uphill access....because such access leads to backcountry on public lands. Take Crystal in WA for example. They have half a dozen designated uphill routes, although at any given time only two might be open. You have to get an uphill pass...which is free by the way. However, with that people have the opportunity to skin and ski limited terrain within the resort, or the Quicksilver route leads to a trailhead accessing backcountry areas outside of the designated resort boundary. None of that in the east really, which is why I agree with TJ that I wouldn’t pay to uphill and ski down a few groomed trails here. Of course that is easy for me to say because I’ve had plenty of other opportunities to get skinning experience.....


----------



## raisingarizona

Uphilling blew up here in flagstaff a few years back. We have a very serious trail running community and a lot of them find going uphill to be a perfect winter match for their training.

It went unmanaged for a few years and led to a lot of problems for the groomers and snow makers trying to work safely and not endanger the public. It became a headache for those employees trying to get their jobs done. We would also see hundreds of tracks on our premiere powder skiing runs before the first chair was loaded. That’s kind of a bummer for the season pass holder that expects a certain experience on those days and paid a thousand dollars to use the lifts and facilities. Even worse, we would get poachers going into the upper bowl when ski patrol needed to do bombing. It literally set back getting terrain open to the public.

I totally get the argument for having something available for that crowd but I also understand a ski areas decision to only allow it on small, designated areas or to not allow it at all. It can be a big pia for operations and a liability issue as well.


----------



## raisingarizona

JTG said:


> True, but resorts can encourage uphill travel without giving uphill-ers free and open access to everything, which I’m ok with.
> 
> Granted, out west it is easier and/or there are more reasons to open ‘limited’ uphill access....because such access leads to backcountry on public lands. Take Crystal in WA for example. They have half a dozen designated uphill routes, although at any given time only two might be open. You have to get an uphill pass...which is free by the way. However, with that people have the opportunity to skin and ski limited terrain within the resort, or the Quicksilver route leads to a trailhead accessing backcountry areas outside of the designated resort boundary. None of that in the east really, which is why I agree with TJ that I wouldn’t pay to uphill and ski down a few groomed trails here. Of course that is easy for me to say because I’ve had plenty of other opportunities to get skinning experience.....


Definitely. That’s how Snowbowl has dealt with it. There’s also a local advocate for that community that makes it very clear to everyone that if the rules are broken Snowbowl retains the right to close it all down. Poachers could and would ultimately ruin that program.


----------



## tirolski

Ripz, 
_$129 for three days a week between 6-8:30am? It reminds me of caddy day at Bushwood, “caddies welcome 1-1:15”._
At least ya can get in 9 holes before work at that price.

Judge Smails: You'll get nothing and like it!


----------



## Ripitz

I’m glad/sad I mentioned it and thank you for pointing it out. Poaching can definitely be a problem and I am sorry that it has become an issue for your area. Letting people on the hill during off hours seems more problematic and that’s why I am advocating for uphill day use. Like speeding there are different levels of endangerment. Skiing through areas that are being avy controlled by patrol is unacceptable. In Big Sky they would take you straight to jail. If your actions endanger other people you should be held accountable. Policies suck but what goes at one place could be problematic at another. The Greylock Ski Club is only open on the weekends but is often tracked up by members uphilling during the week. Sure it sucks showing up on Saturday thinking you’ll get first tracks to discover you were late, but I’m happy for the ones who got there’s. I definitely agree that inbounds touring gives you a great, safe place to get accustomed to gear, work on transitions and get in shape for bigger trips into the backcountry. Some places in the East have embraced it like Black Mountain in NH and Magic in VT. I just hope NY isn’t too far behind. It’s no wonder the Europeans laugh at us.


----------



## Harvey

Maybe not a surprise, I come down on the side of the resorts on this. Whatever they want to do seems like fair game.

"Lift ticket" is not really an accurate term. It's really an infrastructure ticket. When you are uphilling you may be using multiple parts of the infrastructure. Plowing or paving of the parking lot, bathrooms, garbage removal and of course snowmaking. Do uphillers use the lodge in a "normal" year?

If you are a capitalist then you believe each business can set the price for their products, or not offer them at all. If you think an uphill ticket is too expensive the translation is that that product, at that price doesn't make sense for you. That's all, nothing more.

Regarding the whole "Whiteface is on state land" thing. Everything that Whiteface offers has a price, that is set by the managers of the business. To me this is not really different.

I'm sure Magic's decision is grounded in what they think is best for their business. Every other ski area too.


----------



## Tjf1967

raisingarizona said:


> Uphilling blew up here in flagstaff a few years back. We have a very serious trail running community and a lot of them find going uphill to be a perfect winter match for their training.
> 
> It went unmanaged for a few years and led to a lot of problems for the groomers and snow makers trying to work safely and not endanger the public. It became a headache for those employees trying to get their jobs done. We would also see hundreds of tracks on our premiere powder skiing runs before the first chair was loaded. That’s kind of a bummer for the season pass holder that expects a certain experience on those days and paid a thousand dollars to use the lifts and facilities. Even worse, we would get poachers going into the upper bowl when ski patrol needed to do bombing. It literally set back getting terrain open to the public.
> 
> I totally get the argument for having something available for that crowd but I also understand a ski areas decision to only allow it on small, designated areas or to not allow it at all. It can be a big pia for operations and a liability issue as well.


By blow up do you mean like 20 cars for dawn patrol. That's what they get on the busiest days at Whiteface. They say its safety, people mess with the groomers and the winch line and whatever other bull shit they can make up. And they do have a point, but come on it a one off thing when something happens like that and you can probably count on one hand the totality of the incidents. Its miserable people preaching safety when really they just want to pee in the skinners cheerios cause they can.


----------



## Ripitz

Coming slowly up a mountain near you,

Hunter allows it two hours prior to opening. There is an uphill trail hotline for daily info 518.628.5393

Windham allows it during regular open hours with an uphill ticket or season pass. It is permitted during daylight hours when the mountain is closed on the designated route of the day which is on the mountain report posted online.

Catamount has access from dawn to dusk. Uphill season pass is $50 and $15 for the day.
Check at the base for daily routes and info

Belleayre and Gore not allowed


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> Regarding the whole "Whiteface is on state land" thing. Everything that Whiteface offers has a price, that is set by the managers of the business. To me this is not really different.


ORDA is not a business. It is a state agency and part of it's mission is to provide recreation to the public. Without that it has no reason to be in the ski resort business. All it's policies must be judged by what the public wants, not by shareholder wealth or private property rights. 

Whiteface should allow reasonable uphill travel, consistent with safety. Pricing it out of reach is not reasonable.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Ripitz said:


> Coming slowly up a mountain near you,
> 
> Hunter allows it two hours prior to opening. There is an uphill trail hotline for daily info 518.628.5393
> 
> Windham allows it during regular open hours with an uphill ticket or season pass. It is permitted during daylight hours when the mountain is closed on the designated route of the day which is on the mountain report posted online.
> 
> Catamount has access from dawn to dusk. Uphill season pass is $50 and $15 for the day.
> Check at the base for daily routes and info
> 
> Belleayre and Gore not allowed


The Bell and Gore uphill prohibition, and the Whiteface price, is just more evidence that ORDA doesn't care about what the skiing public wants.

mm


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> It’s no wonder the Europeans laugh at us.


I laugh at them too.



Milo Maltbie said:


> Pricing it out of reach is not reasonable.



Milo you could say the same about price of a Whiteface lift ticket. Where's the outrage on that? The only difference is that it's been that way for so long we are used to it.

IMO lift tickets are expensive in large part because of snowmaking.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> The Bell and Gore uphill prohibition, and the Whiteface price, is just more evidence that ORDA doesn't care about what the skiing public wants.
> 
> mm



You seem very down on ORDA, as are many others. Not a dig or anything rather an observation. That said, why support them by purchasing a pass and skiing at their areas?


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> IMO lift tickets are expensive in large part because of snowmaking.



True. People pay the freight so it's working for them.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Lift tickets are expensive everywhere. ORDA prices don't seem high to me, and over the years ORDA has gotten a lot of political push back from the owners of Hunter, Windham and West Mountain. I might be happier with higher prices to keep the crowds down.

ORDA uphill prices and policies are intended to prevent uphill. That's not reasonable for a public agancy or even a business for that matter. 

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> You seem very down on ORDA, as are many others. Not a dig or anything rather an observation. That said, why support them by purchasing a pass and skiing at their areas?


I've been skiing Gore for 50 years, and I have friends there. My low opinion of ORDA is relatively recent. In the past their mistakes were mostly amusing, or at the worst inconvenient. They have acheived a whole new level of fuck up this year, and it's irreversible. 

mm


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> Lift tickets are expensive everywhere. ORDA prices don't seem high to me, and over the years ORDA has gotten a lot of political push back from the owners of Hunter, Windham and West Mountain. I might be happier with higher prices to keep the crowds down.


You are proving my point.

So day tickets are too cheap and uphill passes are too expensive. Sound like you disagree with their pricing. You ok if they raise the price of season pass too?


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> ORDA, why support them by purchasing a pass and skiing at their areas?


Cause they have have the biggest gigs in the state of NY.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> I've been skiing Gore for 50 years



Do you remember a Gore commercial (late 70's early 80's) where a dude was doing a helicopter?


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Cause they have have the biggest gigs in the state of NY.


Then size matters to you 

I'd rather support the little guy with my dollars. Of course that's easy for me to say because of where I live.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> You are proving my point.
> 
> So day tickets are too cheap and uphill passes are too expensive. Sound like you disagree with their pricing. You ok if they raise the price of season pass too?


No. IF you subscribe to market theory, any number of pricing strategies are available. IT's entirely reasonable to set the price high for a service you don't really want to offer, or keep wait times short. ORDA seems to be right where most other eastern ski areas are on lift tickets, but I have more money than time (and I get senior pricing) so I'd be happy if they priced young families off the mountain, because that's the kind of selfish jerk I am. OTOH they are restricting uphill and making it unaffordable where it is available. That might be OK for a private operator, but ORDA is a public agency tasked with providing recreational opportunities. Their uphill policies are not reasonable.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> Do you remember... (late 70's early 80's) ...?


It's all an alcoholic haze.

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Milo Maltbie said:


> No. IF you subscribe to market theory, any number of pricing strategies are available. IT's entirely reasonable to set the price high for a service you don't really want to offer, or keep wait times short. ORDA seems to be right where most other eastern ski areas are on lift ticlkets, but I have more money than time (and I get senior pricing) so I'd be happy if they priced young families off the mountain, because that's the kind of selfish jerk I am. OTOH they are restricitng uphill and making it unaffordable where it is available. That might be OK for a private operator, but ORDA is a public agency tasked with providing recreational opportunities. Their uphill policies are not reasonable.
> 
> mm



You seem to contradict yourself here. It's fine if ORDA prices one group off the hill but not the other?


----------



## Milo Maltbie

These discussions remind me that when Powdr took over Killington, they did lots of things, like limiting lift service to on hill properties, closing in April, high prices on seaon passes and childrens' programs, that pissed off the locals. After a lot of angry resonse, those things were reversed. That's why I don't stop criticizing ORDA. I'm optimistic enough to believe they might learn something.

mm


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Campgottagopee said:


> You seem to contradict yourself here. It's fine if ORDA prices one group off the hill but not the other?


It's fine if they price services in a way that provides the best experience. They are doing that with lift passes, (maybe they are even on the low side), but they are using pricing to eliminate uphill travel. ORDA has had too many fuck ups over the years for me to give them the benefit of the doubt on anything related to skiing.

mm


----------



## Ripitz

If ORDA allows it at Whiteface then I think they should allow it at Belleayre and Gore.


----------



## XTski

Someone should start up a mountain without chair lifts etc and create place for uphill travel skiers rather then trying to piggyback off a place that is designed for chair lifts, who cares about someone laughing on the other side of the pond


----------



## Tjf1967

XTski said:


> Someone should start up a mountain without chair lifts etc and create place for uphill travel skiers rather then trying to piggyback off a place that is designed for chair lifts, who cares about someone laughing on the other side of the pond


BIG TUPPER!!!


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Tuckerman!!!!

mm


----------



## Campgottagopee

Ripitz said:


> If ORDA allows it at Whiteface then I think they should allow it at Belleayre and Gore.



This is true. They should remain consistent, but NYS is anything but.


----------



## Ripitz

Prospect, Dutch Hill, Hogback, the Thunderbolt and countless other defunct ski areas that will go unmentioned are definitely fun places to ski. When there is snow there is nothing like it. The rest of the time it’s a no go. I’m all about ephemeral beauty but the ski seasons are very short and sometimes non existent if you only rely on natural snow.


----------



## Harvey

I think it's pretty likely that "ORDA" doesn't want uphill.

The difference between Whiteface and Gore/Belle is that Whiteface has a long established tradition and culture of uphill. The people/person making the decision probably personally knows the people impacted by the reduction in access. My guess is that there is a feeling that you can't just eliminate uphill at WF.

Let's face it, the reason to allow uphill is to engender good feelings with locals. There's no pure "business" reason to allow it. It's a liability with no real financial upside.



Milo Maltbie said:


> I'd be happy if they priced young families off the mountain


So you are old, and you don't care if skiing survives after you are gone?

This could be the most stunning position I've ever read in this forum.


----------



## Tjf1967

Harvey said:


> I think it's pretty likely that "ORDA" doesn't want uphill.
> 
> The difference between Whiteface and Gore/Belle is that Whiteface has a long established tradition and culture of uphill. The people/person making the decision probably personally knows the people impacted by the reduction in access. My guess is that there is a feeling that you can't just eliminate uphill at WF.
> 
> Let's face it, the reason to allow uphill is to engender good feelings with locals. There's no pure "business" reason to allow it. It's a liability with no real financial upside.
> 
> 
> So you are old, and you don't care if skiing survives after you are gone?
> 
> This could be the most stunning position I've ever read in this forum.


He has some doozies. I don't know why it would stun you.


----------



## GoodTimes

I don’t agree with pricing out but I see where it is coming from. If you nerf it so much so much then it will not be as attractive for older customers. Also, young families may not be able to ski regularly, but that doesn’t mean they cannot when they are older and need less of a leash.

I think this shows that ORDA does not know what they are doing or at least does not care. A paid uphill ticket should be an option even in a limited basis if they wanted to be skiers mountains


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Harvey said:


> So you are old, and you don't care if skiing survives after you are gone?


I think you are reacting to a comment I meant to be ironic, but it really is true that some people find high prices to be a feature, not a bug. Most of them seem to be my Lawn Guyland relatives. My Florida relatives actually hate poor people, and are endlessly offended to see a poor person enjoy anything, but that's not me. 

The old part is true.

mm


----------



## Ripitz

I actually don’t really care what Whiteface charges. For me it’s more about ORDA not allowing it at all at Belleayre and Gore. There is definitely an uphill culture in the Cats. It might not be as big as up North but it’s there, mostly underground. Maybe it’s better it stays that way. I can ski all day down on one side of the rope and up and down day and night on the other. 

“but on the backside it didn’t say nothing”
This land is your land this land is my land, as long as our skis are pointed downhill


----------



## raisingarizona

Tjf1967 said:


> By blow up do you mean like 20 cars for dawn patrol. That's what they get on the busiest days at Whiteface. They say its safety, people mess with the groomers and the winch line and whatever other bull shit they can make up. And they do have a point, but come on it a one off thing when something happens like that and you can probably count on one hand the totality of the incidents. Its miserable people preaching safety when really they just want to pee in the skinners cheerios cause they can.


More like a hundred. If you were running a ski area you’re probably going to project what it could possibly turn into. Right now the uphill buzz is pretty hot in the industry.


----------



## raisingarizona

Milo Maltbie said:


> I think you are reacting to a comment I meant to be ironic, but it really is true that some people find high prices to be a feature, not a bug. Most of them seem to be my Lawn Guyland relatives. My Florida relatives actually hate poor people, and are endlessly offended to see a poor person enjoy anything, but that's not me.
> 
> The old part is true.
> 
> mm


Well they are hard to look at........-sarcasm.

I guess this is why this country has so many laws and the largest population of people in prisons.


----------



## raisingarizona

Tjf1967 said:


> BIG TUPPER!!!


What does that place average every year? 80 inches maybe? That’s not enough to even justify summer grooming efforts.


----------



## sig

XTski said:


> Someone should start up a mountain without chair lifts etc and create place for uphill travel skiers rather then trying to piggyback off a place that is designed for chair lifts, who cares about someone laughing on the other side of the pond


pipe dream. you would need to make snow so the place is ready after a storm. this makes it unrealistic. if we got a foot today the back country would be sketchy, our promising base has mostly melted.


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> More like a hundred. If you were running a ski area you’re probably going to project what it could possibly turn into. Right now the uphill buzz is pretty hot in the industry.


That's pretty amazing to me. Do you think these peeps spend any money at the resort? If not I can certainly understand why a ski area wouldn't want them around.


----------



## Ripitz

Mount Greylock Ski Club was only open 6 days last year and 8 days the year before. Thanks to a dedicated group of member/volunteers it keeps on going unchanged.


----------



## marcski

Who wants to skin up a ski trail? For me, skinning is just as much to get away from people as it is anything else. It's about exercise and gliding on soft snow, not man-made groomers. Even if you're at a resort, just climb in the woods.


----------



## Ripitz

You better not do that it’s not allowed


----------



## raisingarizona

marcski said:


> Who wants to skin up a ski trail? For me, skinning is just as much to get away from people as it is anything else. It's about exercise and gliding on soft snow, not man-made gromers. Even if you're at a resort, just climb in the woods.


I totally agree with you but unfortunately having enough natural snow to make this work is becoming a thing of the past.


----------



## raisingarizona

sig said:


> pipe dream. you would need to make snow so the place is ready after a storm. this makes it unrealistic. if we got a foot today the back country would be sketchy, our promising base has mostly melted.


It actually exists already over in Vermont.

I’m surprised that no one from this forum has visited these places yet.

but in New York? It probably isn’t worth the effort and the way climate is changing (if the science is right) it’s definitely not going to be a thing in our future.


----------



## Ripitz

NY had over 350 ski areas now there’s 43


----------



## raisingarizona

Campgottagopee said:


> That's pretty amazing to me. Do you think these peeps spend any money at the resort? If not I can certainly understand why a ski area wouldn't want them aroound.


Heck no.

It’s mostly trail runner types. This place has a serious trail running scene. I guess it’s the high elevation and largely flattish areas that sit on top of the Mogollon Rim that make it specially attractive to long distance trail runners. That and having the 8 different climate zones within an hours drive or so.

Some probably buy gear in town helping support local businesses and the ski area is built on public lands so that part fits that narrative I guess. But this thread has me thinking about Orda, taxation and their use of tax dollars in ski areas. That’s kind of fucked up eh?


----------



## Ripitz

Vermont, New Hampshire and Mass all have travel restrictions for leisure right now


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> Then size matters to you
> 
> I'd rather support the little guy with my dollars. Of course that's easy for me to say because of where I live.


Camp, For skiing, on a bluebird winter day, long runs, all day, size matters. 

I support lab-song for mostly all other skiing days or nights. So we got that little guy thing goin for us.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Camp, For skiing, on a bluebird winter day, long runs, all day, size matters.
> 
> I support lab-song for mostly all other skiing days or nights. So we got that little guy thing goin for us.



I hear ya, just bustin.

Back in the day when our crew took ski trips we'd always go to WF. Can't pass up the biggest vert in the east


----------



## Harvey

Milo Maltbie said:


> My Florida relatives actually hate poor people, and are endlessly offended to see a poor person enjoy anything, but that's not me.


This is so sad. How does anyone grow up to be like this?


----------



## Campgottagopee

raisingarizona said:


> this thread has me thinking about Orda, taxation and their use of tax dollars in ski areas. That’s kind of fucked up eh?



No doubt


----------



## marcski

raisingarizona said:


> But this thread has me thinking about Orda, taxation and their use of tax dollars in ski areas. That’s kind of fucked up eh?


Tototally. Think about someone like Laszlo and Plattekill, Belleayre's closest (at least as far as distance) competition. No state budget to fill the coffers, no real worry about cost overruns or where they will get money/line of credits etc. (they will be there next year). I don't think this type of State owned and sponsored competition exists in any other industry.


----------



## Ripitz

Guest Opinion: Belleayre Ski Center Expansion​Posted on June 25, 2013 by Laszlo Vajtay









Laszlo Vajtay on the Belleayre Mountain Expansion


The Belleayre Mountain expansion could hurt the local businesses it will compete against. My ski area, Plattekill, is one of those businesses.




nyskiblog.com


----------



## raisingarizona

Harvey said:


> This is so sad. How does anyone grow up





marcski said:


> Tototally. Think about someone like Laszlo and Plattekill, Belleayre's closest (at least as far as distance) competition. No state budget to fill the coffers, no real worry about cost overruns or where they will get money/line of credits etc. (they will be there next year). I don't think this type of State owned and sponsered competition exists in any other industry.


No shit.

the uphill discussion made me think about it. I mean, the op’s argument is that it’s state land. Ok, valid argument for sure but I also get that a ski area has work to do and its in their best interest to not be interfered by that use. But then I thought, the ski area is funded literally by the residents taxes making the op’s argument even stronger.

my next thoughts were how the poor working class gets what? 30% of their income taxed so the state can fund a playground for the more effluent. That seriously f-d up.


----------



## Tjf1967

raisingarizona said:


> No shit.
> 
> the uphill discussion made me think about it. I mean, the op’s argument is that it’s state land. Ok, valid argument for sure but I also get that a ski area has work to do and its in their best interest to not be interfered by that use. But then I thought, the ski area is funded literally by the residents taxes making the op’s argument even stronger.
> 
> my next thoughts were how the poor working class gets what? 30% of their income taxed so the state can fund a playground for the more effluent. That seriously f-d up.


Closer to three. .. Go on


----------



## Harvey

Ripitz said:


> Guest Opinion: Belleayre Ski Center Expansion​Posted on June 25, 2013 by Laszlo Vajtay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Laszlo Vajtay on the Belleayre Mountain Expansion
> 
> 
> The Belleayre Mountain expansion could hurt the local businesses it will compete against. My ski area, Plattekill, is one of those businesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nyskiblog.com


Thanks for posting this, I think the link is better than a full repost.

I'm curious about how you found it.

I edit everything that appears on our front page, and I was deeply involved in this one. Not to say that I don't disagree with opinions posted. With this piece, I stand behind every single word of it.


----------



## Ripitz

I think I’ll just get some twin tips, put the skins on backwards and moonwalk up the trail. I don’t think people will notice. If they do, they will probably react like people do when they see a monoskier, feel bad for me and leave me alone.


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> taxation and their use of tax dollars ...That’s kind of fucked up eh?


Camp, you’re on a roll. 
Better slow down or ya might hit something.


----------



## gefiltephish

I think many people other than 'trail runners,' esp. in the Northeast, are looking to skin uphill at resorts this season. Ppl with dogs, learning new touring gear, Type A fitness lap folk, maybe even someone that can't afford a $100 ticket... Let alone when that's the only decent snow around. Lots of $ and tax talk, vs discussion of leased public lands. I guess more of a thing out West... Operationally/legally, the resorts can make the rules they will, regardless of land 'ownership.' Liability and infrastructure (snow!) justify uphill fees imo. I for one like to play by the rules as a mountain biker and uphill skier, so as not to f' it up for everyone. So clearly communicated policies are appreciated. I agree WF's uphill policy is a joke. At least they have one in writing... lookin at you Platty


----------



## Ripitz

Policies are key and so is enforcement. Take the no sledding policy for example. It all starts at an early age. We should make examples of the children who steal lunch trays and slide down the mountain. Charge them with theft and trespassing so that they don’t grow up to be their full moon skiing parents


----------



## Face4Me

Milo Maltbie said:


> I've been skiing Gore for 50 years, and I have friends there. My low opinion of ORDA is relatively recent. In the past their mistakes were mostly amusing, or at the worst inconvenient. They have acheived a whole new level of fuck up this year, and it's irreversible.
> 
> mm


This post really resonated with me ... I've been skiing Whiteface for 17 years (so not a much experience as MM) and there's no doubt in my mind, things have really changed (not for the better), over the last 3 or 4 years ... pretty much coinciding with Ted Blazer's retirement and Mike Pratt being named CEO of ORDA. The focus has clearly changed ... it used to be about the skiing (not to say there weren't problems before, but the skiing was always the point) ... now it's about amenities. I noticed today that they're putting in EV charging stations at Whiteface ... that's great ... how about a snowmaking system that actually works?


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Camp, you’re on a roll.
> Better slow down or ya might hit something.


LOL
I didn't make that comment rather agreed with what RA was saying. But thanks.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Face4Me said:


> This post really resonated with me ... I've been skiing Whiteface for 17 years (so not a much experience as MM) and there's no doubt in my mind, things have really changed (not for the better), over the last 3 or 4 years ... pretty much coinciding with Ted Blazer's retirement and Mike Pratt being named CEO of ORDA. The focus has clearly changed ... it used to be about the skiing (not to say there weren't problems before, but the skiing was always the point) ... now it's about amenities. I noticed today that they're putting in EV charging stations at Whiteface ... that's great ... how about a snowmaking system that actually works?


Oh boy, don't get me started on this. Same thing happened at my home hill, Greek Peak, when they built the Hotel. The ski side crumbled. Thankfully it's coming back.


----------



## Face4Me

Campgottagopee said:


> Oh boy, don't get me started on this. Same thing happened at my home hill, Greek Peak, when they built the Hotel. The ski side crumbled. Thankfully it's coming back.


I'm glad that things have turned around there ... I just don't know if or when that's going to happen at Whiteface. I don't think it will ever happen with the current management team at ORDA. I'm definitely starting to reconsider my plans and options for the future. It may no longer be "the Face" for me.


----------



## Milo Maltbie

Milo Maltbie said:
My Florida relatives actually hate poor people, and are endlessly offended to see a poor person enjoy anything, but that's not me.



Harvey said:


> This is so sad. How does anyone grow up to be like this?


It's simple.
As a child, if you have enough bad experiences with specific individuals, you may attribute those experiences to a particualer group. An intelligent adult will recognize the circumstances of another person's life are unknowable, that communication is always difficult, and that it is the individual, not the group, that is ultimately responsible. That all takes mental enrgy, but as you get old, energy declines and you revert to your smaller, fearful lizard brain. Denial of your own mortality causes you to transfer your fear of death to the groups you feared as child. The process is accelerated in places like Florida where almost everyone is experiencing the same decline. The best hope of a happy old age is to avoid Florida, and spend more time with your grandchildren.

FWIW I've reached an advantced age, and that's the context you should read all my posts in.

mm


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Ripitz said:


> If they do, they will probably react like people do when they see a monoskier, feel bad for me and leave me alone.


OMG that's funny.


----------



## D.B. Cooper

Milo Maltbie said:


> My low opinion of ORDA is relatively recent. In the past their mistakes were mostly amusing, or at the worst inconvenient. They have acheived a whole new level of fuck up this year, and it's irreversible.
> 
> mm


This is true. A whole lot of money for capital expenditures, but nothing for operations. Chronic shortage of liftie and snow makers, projects that are not well thought out (burst pipes, "new" pumps that don't work).....I could go on.

About the only thing they seem to have done well with is the new mid station. I think people were surprised that drywall/taping/painting was NOT being done during Christmas week.


----------



## tirolski

Milo Maltbie said:


> Milo Maltbie said:
> My Florida relatives actually hate poor people, and are endlessly offended to see a poor person enjoy anything, but that's not me.
> 
> 
> It's simple.
> As a child, if you have enough bad experiences with specific individuals, you may attribute those experiences to a particualer group. An intelligent adult will recognize the circumstances of another person's life are unknowable, that communication is always difficult, and that it is the individual, not the group, that is ultimately responsible. That all takes mental enrgy, but as you get old, energy declines and you revert to your smaller, fearful lizard brain. Denial of your own mortality causes you to transfer your fear of death to the groups you feared as child. The process is accelerated in places like Florida where almost everyone is experiencing the same decline. The best hope of a happy old age is to avoid Florida, and spend more time with your grandchildren.
> 
> FWIW I've reached an advantced age, and that's the context you should read all my posts in.
> 
> mm


mm, Ya explained another "uphill battle" pretty well. 
It appears you’re not to the lizard brain part yet, so ya got that goin for ya. 
Skiing and getting exercise is great for the mind and body.


----------



## x10003q

Ripitz said:


> Guest Opinion: Belleayre Ski Center Expansion​Posted on June 25, 2013 by Laszlo Vajtay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Laszlo Vajtay on the Belleayre Mountain Expansion
> 
> 
> The Belleayre Mountain expansion could hurt the local businesses it will compete against. My ski area, Plattekill, is one of those businesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nyskiblog.com



This is a great reminder about how things operate in NYS and by extension, ORDA. This article is 7.5 years old and there is zero going on to add trails/lifts to connect Highmount to Belleayre or build any of the proposed real estate. Belleayre has received some updates as they added the wacky Cuomo gondola and a trail to connect it to the lower mountain. Belleayre also got a much needed update to the Discovery Lodge and the double lift replacement/FGQ addition to the lower mountain.

Interesting how the ski area development in the article has yet to materialize. Is anybody really surprised?


----------



## Brownski

I’m not surpriser but I’m still a little baffled by that gondola and trail. And didn’t that Highmount project get approved at some point? What are those developers waiting for? Are we supposed to fund the construction of their golf resort too?


----------



## Ripitz

Let’s not forget what ORDA stands for and what it doesn’t.
It’s the Olympic Regional Development Authority and skimo is soon to be an Olympic sport.


> *ORDA's legislative mandate is to:*




Institute a comprehensive, coordinated program of activities utilizing the Olympic facilities, Gore Mountain, and Belleayre Mountain, in and around Lake Placid, North Creek, and Highmount, New York, in order to insure optimum year-round use and enjoyment of these facilities to the economic and social benefit of the regions and to minimize the financial burden on state and local government by maximizing revenue opportunities.
Improve the physical fitness and recreational education of the people of New York and the United States.
Develop, implement and supervise a comprehensive, coordinated program for the management, promotion and scheduling of a wide range of national and international athletic training and competitive opportunities that maximize the utilization of the Olympic facilities.
Develop, construct, operate, manage and maintain facilities for the training and housing of amateur athletes in connection with the United States Olympic Committee's training center program and ORDA's conduct of national and international sports event


----------



## Harvey

I heard from Laz by text while I was "sleeping."

"4 uphill skiers almost run over by groomers at 6am."

Then he asked my to put this out there:

"We have a no uphill policy in the morning, and daytime uphill is only for ticketed skiers and only on trails not open to downhill skiers."

I will post this in Plattekill Conditions too. And try to get more clarity. He's going to put signs in the parking lot, I will push him for a dedicated page on the website.


----------



## Brownski

Seems reasonable (and easily understood) to me









Uphill Policy | Plattekill Mountain







www.plattekill.com


----------



## Harvey

This just appeared in search results, I anticipate it will move into position 1 soon.


----------



## Ripitz

noliftneeded.com is a good resource for policies that was previously posted. Plattekill is listed as “anytime” and the link to Plattekill’s site comes up 404. I hope this is corrected soon as to not create any confusion. 
What happened at Plattekill is unacceptable. Policies must be in place, stated publicly and people must follow them. Sure getting uphill access revoked would suck but people getting run over by a snowcat is obviously much worse. Policies differ at each area. Some places allow it when the lifts are open, some when they are closed and some anytime. Please know before you go and check in with base to double check that it is allowed and what route to take. While it might not be for everyone, touring at your local ski area can be a safe and enjoyable experience. I hope it stays that way.


----------



## Benny Profane

I drove over to Windham on Tuesday after I got shut out of skiing at Hunter, or, should I say, excluded from skiing for the day, just to check the place out because, hey, nuthin' better to do. Pretty drive, anyway, and, man, did they pave roads a lot up there recently. Anyway, haven't been to that mountain in a very very long time since I learned how to ski. Holy mackerel, that is a different place than I remember. So, that's where the Lexus crowd comes to ski. Yeah, I know, lame skiing experience, but, I just wanted to see it and ask someone directly about uphill policy and pricing. It's 30 bucks a day, and 90 bucks season pass. Or, if you have a pass, which, no, I wouldn't, because thats like 140 retail at the window (!), but, you can buy much cheaper if you reserve weekdays way ahead. They have a pricing system on their website that reminds me of Liftopia's old site, pricing to demand. They are also an Ikon mountain, but the hell I'd sully my virgin Ikon pass for that place. If I dont use the Ikon, I get full credit for next season.
The actual policy for uphill is quite liberal, compared to most mountains. I was told by one instructor at the base that you can skin any trail, anytime! Just dont be a bonehead, stay to the side, and be aware. His buddy nodded. Hmmm, I thought, looking up at a green trail that looked perfect for some exercise to the top. And, there's both a mac and cheese and taco truck on the plaza as a reward for your return! The bathrooms arent crowded at all, and, generally, at that kind of ticket pricing, the mountain itself isn't crowded, either, even with the refugees from the Hunter shutdown that day, like me. I may be back soon.


----------



## Brownski

yeah, I made the observation once that places with a lot of hotel rooms tend to have good policies because they want to rent snowshoes to the non-skier family members. It’s kind of ironic. You definitely see lots of snowshoers walking up the hill there.


----------



## Ripitz

These are easy amenities to add to a facility without increasing costs to infrastructure. Patty has a snowshoe ticket for one ride up. I’ve seen people ride the gondola at the Belle to snowshoe Route 9 to Sunset lodge and points beyond and download back to base. Some people consider skating across the ridge on their way to bomb down the mountain as more of an inconvenience. But for my mom who doesn’t ski anymore snowshoeing it would be a great experience.


----------



## marcski

Ripitz said:


> These are easy amenities to add to a facility without increasing costs to infrastructure. Patty has a snowshoe ticket for one ride up. I’ve seen people ride the gondola at the Belle to snowshoe Route 9 to Sunset lodge and points beyond and download back to base. Some people consider skating across the ridge on their way to bomb down the mountain as more of an inconvenience. But for my mom who doesn’t ski anymore snowshoeing it would be a great experience.


They need a transfer tow up there like at Alta.


----------



## marcski

Brownski said:


> I’m not surpriser but I’m still a little baffled by that gondola and trail. And didn’t that Highmount project get approved at some point? What are those developers waiting for? Are we supposed to fund the construction of their golf resort too?


Yeah, I heard those guys have been hanging out with Ariel Quiros and Jim Barnes.


----------



## Benny Profane

XTski said:


> Someone should start up a mountain without chair lifts etc and create place for uphill travel skiers rather then trying to piggyback off a place that is designed for chair lifts, who cares about someone laughing on the other side of the pond


Bluebird Backcountry in Colorado, near Steamboat. I just saw a blurb yesterday that they had to close due to Covid, which, on the surface, is ironic, considering the lack of lift crowding, but maybe they had issues with patrol, like Hunter.









85 - Good Timing: Colorado's Bluebird Backcountry


<p>Uphill equipment is flying off shelves in our new Covid world. </p><br /><p>My guest is Erik Lambert, co-founder of <a rel="nofollow"href=&...




castbox.fm


----------



## Benny Profane

marcski said:


> Who wants to skin up a ski trail? For me, skinning is just as much to get away from people as it is anything else. It's about exercise and gliding on soft snow, not man-made groomers. Even if you're at a resort, just climb in the woods.


Well, I do, right now, because I'm a newbie Jong, and just want to see if I even like it, in a nice, safe, comfy environment with bathrooms and taco trucks. But, even then, I want something to bridge my aerobic exercise conditioning I get from road biking from March to late November. I'm not a racer, I'm actually pretty slow, but I do it to get exercise and stay healthy. I'm tired of getting heavy and slow in the winter, and I don't care if the skinning is in a nice, controlled, safe place, as long as I get the heart rate up for a few hours. But, nice scenery helps. And tacos.


----------



## marcski

Benny Profane said:


> Well, I do, right now, because I'm a newbie Jong, and just want to see if I even like it, in a nice, safe, comfy environment with bathrooms and taco trucks. But, even then, I want something to bridge my aerobic exercise conditioning I get from road biking from March to late November. I'm not a racer, I'm actually pretty slow, but I do it to get exercise and stay healthy. I'm tired of getting heavy and slow in the winter, and I don't care if the skinning is in a nice, controlled, safe place, as long as I get the heart rate up for a few hours. But, nice scenery helps. And tacos.



What about the last sentence that you quoted? Skin in the woods at a resort. You'll have you bathrooms and taco trucks.

Also, while you say "I'm a newbie Jong" you need to add cranky, Benny. (Said with ✌️ and love..as Ringo would say it).


----------



## Benny Profane

Newbie jong to uphill. 

What woods? Hell, we're lucky to have groomed trails with this weather so far.

I've been thinking of getting back on the snowboard lately, just to show those little brats that old cranky guys can ride switch, too.


----------



## Ripitz

I’ve been doing downhill laps on my XCD setup. It’s terrifying. Feels like I’m learning to ski all over again.


----------



## sig

Benny Profane said:


> I've been thinking of getting back on the snowboard lately, just to show those little brats that old cranky guys can ride switch, too.


go get them benny. old guys rise up. its our time


----------



## tirolski

marcski said:


> Yeah, I heard those guys have been hanging out with Ariel Quiros and Jim Barnes.


Don’t know bout Belle but these folks have plans approved for Gore y’all. https://frontstreetpartners.com/real-estate-ski-bowl-village/


----------



## sig

this has so much potential, especially if it revitalizes north creek. walking to the first chair or walking into town for dinner and drinks would be a unique ski experience for the north east.


----------



## JTG

While I generally side with marcski, I get that there are circumstances where skinning in bounds up a groomer makes good sense. In the spring, when the WF summit is closed, skinning up there via trails is great. Otherwise, most of my skinning at WF has been in the woods. Generally though, skinning for me is about freedom, nature, and access to terrain you can’t get to otherwise. I don’t care about the exercise aspect of it, I do enough other things to stay in shape and get my heart rate up. That’s why something like the WF uphill program holds no appeal for me. I don’t care for the exercise of it, and when I want Summit views I’ll take the lift. Sure, just like sunrise on a surfboard can be pretty cool, I’d imagine sunrise on the Summit could be cool...but not worth the effort, for me at least.

It does make a lot of sense for people new-ish to touring to do so in resort. The equipment and the transitions are enough to learn, without having to worry about route finding in the woods on your own, although I’m sure there are plenty of established trails and skin tracks out there.

Benny....when the world permits, Magic is the resort to skin at. Not only is their uphill policy one of the best, when there is snow you can head over to Timber Ridge. Good skinning over, decent skiing on the abandoned trails, and a relatively straightforward return. One time I did zig when I should have zagged on the return and ended up skiing down a snowmobile trail that required a little backtracking, but even that was fun.


----------



## Ripitz

Last time I was there Magic had alpine touring setups for rent as well. Good for someone who wants to check it out but doesn’t have the gear. The cost of entry is pretty high and a lot of people I know can’t justify the expense of another setup just to see if it is for them or do it just a couple times a year. The Mountaineer in Keene has rentals and retail and so does Andy with Ski the Whites at Black in NH. If anyone knows of other shops with setups available it would be great to hear about it.


----------



## JTG

Being able to rent a touring setup seems like it would be a great thing. Back to what some might consider the failure of the new WF uphill policy. If they had a more expansive policy, at a more reasonable cost, and a stable of rental touring gear....I bet they’d sell out of it every day.

While having multiple setups can be expensive, with the improvements in tech bindings the last few years there is no longer a need for it. Anyone in the market for new equipment, who has any inkling they might ever be interested in touring, should just buy a touring compatible setup. Many of the touring bindings out there now are as good as full on alpine bindings for the descent, as long as weight on the uphill isn’t a priority for you.


----------



## Benny Profane

Ripitz said:


> Last time I was there Magic had alpine touring setups for rent as well. Good for someone who wants to check it out but doesn’t have the gear. The cost of entry is pretty high and a lot of people I know can’t justify the expense of another setup just to see if it is for them or do it just a couple times a year. The Mountaineer in Keene has rentals and retail and so does Andy with Ski the Whites at Black in NH. If anyone knows of other shops with setups available it would be great to hear about it.


I bought a closeout pair of Volkl Mantra 102s and put a pair of Atomic shift bindings on them for this. The 102s are heavy, and the Shifts aren't cheap, but, if all this doesn't work out, I have an excellent western and Alps all around ski I can use for years. My old Full Tilts had to be retired last year, so, I went with FT Ascendants this time, a fine inbounds "resort" boot that easily converts into an uphill trekker. So, no loss, in the end. But, yeah, uphill specific gear is expensive, if you go that route. Lord, is it light. I had a store person put a carbon fiber boot in my hand, and it was shocking. The skis, too. But, you're talking about a few grand for a setup that I wouldn't take anywhere near bumps.


----------



## JTG

Nice setup Benny, best of both worlds. While I am thinking of going a little narrower on my next setup, maybe, 102 is a great compromise. I know professional guides who go one ski quiver at that width.


----------



## Ripitz

I’m fairly certain Platty has telemark setups in their rental shop. Not sure about the skins though.


Harvey said:


> I laugh at them too


reminds of the saying Randonee is French for Can’t Tele


----------



## sig

JTG said:


> Benny....when the world permits, Magic is the resort to skin at. Not only is their uphill policy one of the best, when there is snow you can head over to Timber Ridge. Good skinning over, decent skiing on the abandoned trails, and a relatively straightforward return. One time I did zig when I should have zagged on the return and ended up skiing down a snowmobile trail that required a little backtracking, but even that was fun.


Hey JTG 
i never heard of Timber Ridge, good to know. i also just heard about Dutch Hill in vermont. they have some up hilling going on also. thanks


----------



## Ripitz

Up in that zone is Hogback and the Thunderbolt too


----------



## Benny Profane

JTG said:


> Nice setup Benny, best of both worlds. While I am thinking of going a little narrower on my next setup, maybe, 102 is a great compromise. I know professional guides who go one ski quiver at that width.


I have a pair of 2017 Mantras (M5?) that I adore, and are the best all around ski I've ever owned, so, when I read that the 102 is better for that, I grabbed a pair.


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> Don’t know bout Belle but these folks have plans approved for Gore y’all. https://frontstreetpartners.com/real-estate-ski-bowl-village/


Oh, here we go again. Listen, if there was a need for that, why isn't it there already? Why is North Creek dead in the winter and a ghost town in the summer? Build it and they will come? Didnt they try that with Tupper?


----------



## Ripitz

The Shift is a bomber binding. I have them on 95 Stockli Stormriders and you feel extremely confident. It’s a heavy setup but great on the downhill and a useful tool for the sidecountry. AT boots are so light and comfortable. I have the Salomon S/lab boots and had real reservations about their ability to drive a big ski. There is no issue though and you have the added benefit of the rubber soles and walk mode for hiking a ridge or navigating the stairs to and from the bar.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> Oh, here we go again. Listen, if there was a need for that, why isn't it there already? Why is North Creek dead in the winter and a ghost town in the summer? Build it and they will come? Didnt they try that with Tupper?


BP, Don’t know bout the above but seems a lot of folks want to ski at Gore again this year even without pow in a pandemic.


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> BP, Don’t know bout the above but seems a lot of folks want to ski at Gore again this year even without pow in a pandemic.


I think at this point we can assume that Eastern hills will have a steady customer base because they, a very large and relatively wealthy demographic, can't or won't go anywhere else. No Rockies, no Canada, no Europe. Like me. That guy Matt skiology put out a survey/call out on facebook, simply asking for line/crowd reports Saturday, and its busy everywhere. Mt. Snow is killing it. Most are "heaviest in years". Man, I wish I still lived in Saratoga. I'd be at Gore a lot. It's good in a way. Local mountains will benefit from the exposure. If it ever snows.


----------



## JTG

Ripitz said:


> The Shift is a bomber binding. I have them on 95 Stockli Stormriders and you feel extremely confident. It’s a heavy setup but great on the downhill and a useful tool for the sidecountry. AT boots are so light and comfortable. I have the Salomon S/lab boots and had real reservations about their ability to drive a big ski. There is no issue though and you have the added benefit of the rubber soles and walk mode for hiking a ridge or navigating the stairs to and from the bar.


Shift is what I’m eyeing for my next setup.


----------



## Ripitz

You can also ski the Shift with a Downhill boot if you wanted for lift laps. A Tech boot is necessary for touring. After skiing on Tech boots though I can’t imagine going back to the cement blocks


----------



## JTG

Ripitz said:


> You can also ski the Shift with a Downhill boot if you wanted for lift laps. A Tech boot is necessary for touring. After skiing on Tech boots though I can’t imagine going back to the cement blocks


Given my focus on downhill performance I go for a traditional four buckle, 130 flex boot with tech fittings (currently K2 Pinnacle Pro). Still super comfortable with the molded Intuition liners, but not light and cushy.


----------



## raisingarizona

If you tour a lot, after a while weight will start to really matter to you.

I still have a really heavy set up for touring, like it’s kind of dumb but with the way our season is going I’m not going to purchase a touring specific ski and binding.

the shifts look pretty nice but I wouldn’t hammer them in area much. They’re too expensive for that.

right now I feel like a 100 under foot, no metal and super easy, playful ski is the way to go for touring. I got some bent Chetler 100’s for Christmas that I bet are perfect for that. These though are getting those Salomon alpine bindings with a din of 16 (can’t remember what they’re called). I want a ski like that for hot laps too.


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> Don’t know bout Belle but these folks have plans approved for Gore y’all. https://frontstreetpartners.com/real-estate-ski-bowl-village/


Frontstreet received approval for this development next to the Ski Bowl around 2008. They seem to have sold a handful of units.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> I think at this point we can assume that Eastern hills will have a steady customer base because they, a very large and relatively wealthy demographic, can't or won't go anywhere else. No Rockies, no Canada, no Europe. Like me. That guy Matt skiology put out a survey/call out on facebook, simply asking for line/crowd reports Saturday, and its busy everywhere. Mt. Snow is killing it. Most are "heaviest in years". Man, I wish I still lived in Saratoga. I'd be at Gore a lot. It's good in a way. Local mountains will benefit from the exposure. If it ever snows.


Same thing with golf courses being super busy last season, albeit we had good weather for it too.


----------



## ADKmike

x10003q said:


> Frontstreet received approval for this development next to the Ski Bowl around 2008. They seem to have sold a handful of units.


So 13 years later and still nothing happening? I've ridden my MTB at the ski bowl a few times in recent years, never saw anything related to development. I actually didn't even know about this until I read this thread tonight. I'm not as in tune to happenings around gore as I am to those in LP. How did this get state/APA/etc approval? I thought it was very difficult to develop something like this in the ADKs...? Never expected Gore or Whiteface to have a "slope side village"...I guess some aspects of it could be cool., others not so much. VT has plenty of ski area base development...a major appeal to the ADKs (for me at least) has been the more no frills aspect of it..even though the "old days" (late 80s/90s mostly for me when I was a little kid skiing here with my family) have changed a bit at both places (new lodges/lifts/etc etc)

Think this "village" will ever reach it's full build out. 5 hotels...sounds like could be an eye sore.


----------



## x10003q

ADKmike said:


> So 13 years later and still nothing happening? I've ridden my MTB at the ski bowl a few times in recent years, never saw anything related to development. I actually didn't even know about this until I read this thread tonight. I'm not as in tune to happenings around gore as I am to those in LP. How did this get state/APA/etc approval? I thought it was very difficult to develop something like this in the ADKs...? Never expected Gore or Whiteface to have a "slope side village"...I guess some aspects of it could be cool., others not so much. VT has plenty of ski area base development...a major appeal to the ADKs (for me at least) has been the more no frills aspect of it..even though the "old days" (late 80s/90s mostly for me when I was a little kid skiing here with my family) have changed a bit at both places (new lodges/lifts/etc etc)
> 
> Think this "village" will ever reach it's full build out. 5 hotels...sounds like could be an eye sore.


It is zoned in the Hamlet of North Creek.


----------



## ADKmike

x10003q said:


> It is zoned in the Hamlet of North Creek.


What's that mean? Easier to build something like this vs if it were elsewhere in the area? Just curious for my own knowledge of how it all works with respect to the what I thought was extremely strict building rules within the park


----------



## Harvey

All of the development is technically "slopeside" but it is all on private land.

This is why Burnt Ridge was built. To connect skiing with private land.









Gore Mountain Expansion Plan | NYSkiBlog Directory







nyskiblog.com





The land in yellow on the map is privately owned. The liftline section is owned by the town of Johnsburg. The rest is state land.


----------



## x10003q

ADKmike said:


> What's that mean? Easier to build something like this vs if it were elsewhere in the area? Just curious for my own knowledge of how it all works with respect to the what I thought was extremely strict building rules within the park


The private land next to the Ski Bowl can have residential and commercial density similar to what currently exists in North Creek (the land is in North Creek). There are roughly 130K residents who live inside the Park borders. The hamlets are small, higher density subsections of towns where residents can live/shop/work and have schools for their kids.


----------



## Benny Profane

Ask yourselves. Why does North Creek only have one hotel and barely anyplace to eat? OK, so, that's "private property" too. Where's the demand? Easy answer. There is none. The only condo complex, the only one, still sells cheap when something comes on the market. 
All the demand is down the road at Lake George, and further north at LP. And over in Vermont. 
Boondoggle.


----------



## Harvey

I have asked myself. I don't know the answer. Also how to explain a reasonably healthy second home market.

Maybe it's the lack of night life? Whatever, I don't care. North Creek is my kind of place.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> I have asked myself. I don't know the answer. Also how to explain a reasonably healthy second home market.
> 
> Maybe it's the lack of night life? Whatever, I don't care. North Creek is my kind of place.



I think that's what it is, lack of night life. I think it's also the lack of a bigger body of water for summertime fun. My wife and I have been taking trips to the Dacks for years now. North Creek is never a place on our radar for all the reasons mentioned.


----------



## Tjf1967

The big thing they don't have is a lake.


----------



## Benny Profane

Right, there's two or three down the road on the northway.


----------



## Campgottagopee

And one in Speculator, and in Old Forge, and and and....


----------



## JTG

Isn’t the summer season really the busy season for LP? That makes sense, without a lake NC can’t compete with LG and other areas for summer guests, even if there were more hotels and night life.

Honestly, if there were better lodgings available and a bit more in the way of dining/nightlife I’d gladly book a family trip to Gore, but they can’t rely on winter visitors I guess.


----------



## x10003q

Ask yourselves - Why is there zero advertising for Gore in NYC Metro area? Are there no skiers in the NYC Metro area?

We are in north NJ. It takes us a little over 3 hours to get to Gore (Plattekill 2:05, Mt Snow/Stratton are 3:30). Gore is the largest ski area in NYS. Over the years I have seen ads in NYC for Whiteface (of course), Hunter, Windham, Mt Snow, Stratton, Killington, Sugarbush, yet ZERO for Gore. Gore needs to be promoted. The proof is in the attendance -Gore has had roughly 215k visits/season since 2002, despite the lift/lodge updates, doubling in size, and 95% snowmaking plus plenty of water from the Hudson River. *Who is responsible for zero increase in the amount of visits to Gore? *Gore is supposed to be an economic engine for the North Creek area. That is one of the main reasons for all the NYS money spent on the expansion.

Until the Governor of NY recognizes ORDA's failure at Gore, nothing will ever change in North Creek.

It is not the lack of lakes. Within 20 miles of North Creek - Loon Lake(10), Friends Lake(14), Schroon Lake(14), Brant Lake (18), Indian Lake (18), Lake George Village at the bottom of Lake George is 25 miles, and Bolton Landing on Lake George is 29 miles.


----------



## Endoftheline

ADKmike said:


> So 13 years later and still nothing happening? I've ridden my MTB at the ski bowl a few times in recent years, never saw anything related to development. I actually didn't even know about this until I read this thread tonight. I'm not as in tune to happenings around gore as I am to those in LP. How did this get state/APA/etc approval? I thought it was very difficult to develop something like this in the ADKs...? Never expected Gore or Whiteface to have a "slope side village"...I guess some aspects of it could be cool., others not so much. VT has plenty of ski area base development...a major appeal to the ADKs (for me at least) has been the more no frills aspect of it..even though the "old days" (late 80s/90s mostly for me when I was a little kid skiing here with my family) have changed a bit at both places (new lodges/lifts/etc etc)
> 
> Think this "village" will ever reach it's full build out. 5 hotels...sounds like could be an eye sore.





> MIke, This project has full APA approval and NYS (through Betty Little) spent $5M putting in the connector lift to help facilitate the project. Even though Front Street developers didn't have to put any $$$s into the ski area they still can't make a go of this. But the Governor also gave his stamp of approval for the ACR in Tupper Lake. I guess political ambition plays a little role when it comes to supporting so called "private" development/job creation. Even when they know deep down these project have little chance of success.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> It is not the lack of lakes. Within 20 miles of North Creek - Loon Lake(10), Friends Lake(14), Schroon Lake(14), Brant Lake (18), Indian Lake (18), Lake George Village at the bottom of Lake George is 25 miles, and Bolton Landing on Lake George is 29 miles.



It certainly isn't THE reason but imo it plays a big part. The places my wife and I go to we get a place right on the lake that is close enough to walk to restaurants and bars. NC, I love the place, but it doesn't have that.


----------



## JTG

Campgottagopee said:


> It certainly isn't THE reason but imo it plays a big part. The places my wife and I go to we get a place right on the lake that is close enough to walk to restaurants and bars. NC, I love the place, but it doesn't have that.


Exactly. Why would someone want to stay in NC and drive half an hour (give or take) to access a lake.....when they can just stay by one of the lakes?? Sure, if NC was a hopping spot otherwise MAYBE people would be tempted....but it’s not. Just stay in LP, where there is plentiful lodging right on several lakes....


----------



## SIAWOL

lack of lake, sure.
But I think an affordable condo development right in NC (across from the train depot) on that empty lot would be a solid springboard to greater things. Folks could stay right there, in town. Walk to a few shops and eateries. Ride their bike (road or mtn). Easy access to gore. Hiking trails nearby. My thought was always if you could get ~20+ units in there, that starts to drive some foot traffic right in the downtown--providing more demand for stuff. Grows from there. 

I'm with Harv--I like NC. Quiet and quaint. We're right in town and love that convenience, but also want to see a few more evening options. But until there's more full time/2nd homers in downtown, it's a tough sell to grow it.

Even without the lake, there's a lot to offer right off main street between skiing, hiking, biking, rafting....or hell, just sitting around the fire pit. I like a lake as much as the next guy, but I get plenty of enjoyment and relaxation for about 30% of downtown LP homeprices....Value is key, too.

NC sees a surprising amount of traffic in the summer. Just not people staying after around 3p-4p.


----------



## Green light

Think about it. Route 28 bypasses around North Creek, therefore no exposure to the downtown area. People just drive on by. I have always heard that this was done by request of the community many years ago. The only other Adirondack community I can think of that the State highway does not go through is Raquette Lake. There is even less going on there than in North Creek.


----------



## Ripitz

People want ski in ski out even if it’s on a bullshit real estate trail and disjointed interconnect. I hope it does help with NC and not just be utilized for a couple weeks a year and become a creepy little ghost condo village that is seen everywhere else the rest of the year


----------



## Ripitz

Green light said:


> Think about it. Route 28 bypasses around North Creek, therefore no exposure to the downtown area. People just drive on by.


Pine Hill too. I skied Belleayre and Gore for years before I knew there was a cool village at the bottom


----------



## tirolski

SIAWOL said:


> ... a few shops and eateries. ..providing more demand for stuff. Grows from there.
> I'm with Harv--I like NC. Quiet and quaint..., just sitting around the fire pit.


Here’s something good to do in North Creek.
Get some downhill darkside dark chocolate at Barkeaters Chocolate shop. Provides good energy and good vibes. It’s like being in a candy shop. Really.





Downhill Darksider Bars 3 Pack | Barkeater Chocolates







www.barkeaterchocolates.com


----------



## Harvey

Quite some drift.

One thing about "the lake" is that 13th Lake is spectacular. "But" it's wilderness. That keeps the water pristine and the lake is one of the most beautiful in NY. But it only drives commerce and visitation at a low level. Personally I'll take 13th all day long and be 100% fine with no nightlife. It's what I like. But it will never be a commerce engine.


----------



## tirolski

Harvey said:


> Quite some drift.


You’ll have that. Especially when it’s windy.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> Quite some drift.
> 
> One thing about "the lake" is that 13th Lake is spectacular. "But" it's wilderness. That keeps the water pristine and the lake is one of the most beautiful in NY. But it only drives commerce and visitation at a low level. Personally I'll take 13th all day long and be 100% fine with no nightlife. It's what I like. But it will never be a commerce engine.



Agree, 13th Lake is spectacular, been there many times. It's provided some of the best trout fishing I've even done.


----------



## Ripitz

Harvey said:


> Quite some drift.


I hope they allow uphill travel on the beautiful new private condo trails


----------



## G.ski

Sounds like North Creek is my kind of place.

So far I've day tripped all of my 5 days at Gore this season. At 2:45 each way it's inside my day trip window but just barely. I think I'll make a 2 day trip next time up after MLK and spend a night in North Creek.


----------



## x10003q

JTG said:


> Exactly. Why would someone want to stay in NC and drive half an hour (give or take) to access a lake.....when they can just stay by one of the lakes?? Sure, if NC was a hopping spot otherwise MAYBE people would be tempted....but it’s not. Just stay in LP, where there is plentiful lodging right on several lakes....


Because, in the winter (unlike LP), you could be slopeside at a huge ski area and also be very close to Main St in North Creek.


----------



## Campgottagopee

x10003q said:


> Because, in the winter (unlike LP), you could be slopeside at a huge ski area and also be very close to Main St in North Creek.


JTG and I were talking about the non-winter months.

Look, I could spend a week at 2nd pond bass fishing and fight off flies. I'll be going back into Bog Meadow this coming deer season for a week staying at a very old and very secret hunting camp. I love that shit, my wife ain't having any of it.....lol 
That's why NC won't work for us to hang out at for vacation.


----------



## JTG

x10003q said:


> Because, in the winter (unlike LP), you could be slopeside at a huge ski area and also be very close to Main St in North Creek.


Yeah, I get that, in winter. Like I said, if better lodging options existed in NC I would actually plan a family ski vacation there. But better lodging doesn’t exist, and that’s where the lake, or lack thereof, may come into play. Me thinks you are missing the main point. While some might skate, XC, or snowshoe on a lake in the winter....the lack of lake access is more of an issue in the spring/summer/fall. While I might want to stay there in the winter if better lodging existed, not enough people will want to stay there in the non-winter. Why would they when they can have easy lake access at better locations? The only way any buildup in NC is going to work is if they are year round properties, and NC doesn’t seem to have the goods to attract enough summer visitors away from other locations. If it did someone surely would have done it by now.


----------



## Ripitz

I think wilderness areas are possibly the best long term economic engines. As long as private property abuts ski areas fighting its development will always be an uphill battle. A house here and there is one thing but a full blowout is another. If I was a concerned local I would demand performance bonds to insure against construction failures


----------



## x10003q

JTG said:


> Yeah, I get that, in winter. Like I said, if better lodging options existed in NC I would actually plan a family ski vacation there. But better lodging doesn’t exist, and that’s where the lake, or lack thereof, may come into play. Me thinks you are missing the main point. While some might skate, XC, or snowshoe on a lake in the winter....the lack of lake access is more of an issue in the spring/summer/fall. While I might want to stay there in the winter if better lodging existed, not enough people will want to stay there in the non-winter. Why would they when they can have easy lake access at better locations? The only way any buildup in NC is going to work is if they are year round properties, and NC doesn’t seem to have the goods to attract enough summer visitors away from other locations. If it did someone surely would have done it by now.


Here are some ski areas with slopeside housing and no lake nearby:
Holiday Valley, Seven Springs, Jiminy Peak, Stratton, Magic, Bromley, Okemo, Killington, Sugarbush, Stowe, Smuggs, Burke, Jay, Waterville Valley, Loon, Bretton Woods, Attitash, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf. It is not the lack of a lake. 

Skiers enjoy slopeside lodging. I am not saying Gore needs thousands of slopeside units, but a couple of hundred units would certainly bump visits to Gore and stabilize businesses in North Creek. People who buy slopeside units do use them year around. This development was a huge fear for the ORDA Board members from Lake Placid. Somehow, 12 years after approval, their fears have not been realized. Gore continues to be an expensive, underutilized NYS asset that is not fulfilling its obligation to be an economic engine for the North Creek area.


----------



## Brownski

I think this falls into the same category as the golf resort at Belle. Even with the approvals and permits in place, they still need to convince somebody to pay for it.


----------



## JTG

x10003q said:


> It is not the lack of a lake.


No, it’s also the lack of golf courses, if you want to make NC and Gore into the likes of Stowe, Stratton, Sugarbush, Killington, etc., etc. 

Agree to disagree, but NC doesn’t have much to make it attractive to my family outside of ski season. It also doesn’t have the lodging to attract my family there during the ski season. Coincidence?

Also, you keep talking slope side housing units, people who want to buy. While I’m sure Gore/NC could support a few dozen such units, like a Magic, that’s not the kind of development I’m talking about. There are a lot more people out there looking to rent hotel rooms and hit a spa than there are people looking to buy mountain condos, I suspect.

You seem to believe NC is equipped to compete with other major mountain towns. If you build it they will come? If that’s the case, and lack of lakes or golf courses or anything else isn’t a factor.....tell me why it is you think nobody has built it yet.


----------



## raisingarizona

Ripitz said:


> Pine Hill too. I skied Belleayre and Gore for years before I knew there was a cool village at the bottom


It’s a shame that the ski area doesn’t drop down into town. I think there’s around 1800 verts directly out of Pine Hill and well over 2k if you used a peak viewers left.


----------



## Harvey

raisingarizona said:


> I think there’s around 1800 verts directly out of Pine Hill and well over 2k if you used a peak viewers left.



When there is snow it is skied.


----------



## GoreSkiMom

Harvey said:


> Quite some drift.
> 
> One thing about "the lake" is that 13th Lake is spectacular. "But" it's wilderness. That keeps the water pristine and the lake is one of the most beautiful in NY. But it only drives commerce and visitation at a low level. Personally I'll take 13th all day long and be 100% fine with no nightlife. It's what I like. But it will never be a commerce engine.


13th Lake is incredibly gorgeous!


----------



## tirolski

JTG said:


> If you build it they will come? If that’s the case, and lack of lakes or golf courses or anything else isn’t a factor.....tell me why it is you think nobody has built it yet.


Has anyone knowledge of black and deer flies around North Creek?
Nearby Hamilton County is nice in fall &winter but ya need protection from bugs spring & summer.


----------



## Campgottagopee

tirolski said:


> Has anyone knowledge of black and deer flies around North Creek?



I've seen them pick up children


----------



## Ripitz

Campgottagopee said:


> I've seen them pick up children


?


----------



## Benny Profane

Brownski said:


> I think this falls into the same category as the golf resort at Belle. Even with the approvals and permits in place, they still need to convince somebody to pay for it.


Well, yeah, because, nobody plays golf anymore. The numbers are awful. Since the heyday of the early 90s, courses and country clubs have been shutting down in droves. Oh, sure, 2020 has seen numbers spike because of, well, lots of time to waste and travel restrictions, but, that ain't lasting. To spend tax dollars on a golf course in some semi private development in black fly country is a crime.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Benny Profane said:


> Well, yeah, because, nobody plays golf anymore.



Well, yeah, the numbers have declined and they've seemed to settle in at 24 million/year. So people do play golf, and 2020 was huge for golf so many will most likely stick around.









Golf: number of participants U.S. 2021 | Statista


This statistic shows the number of participants in golf (on a golf course) in the United States from 2006 to 2021.




www.statista.com


----------



## Endoftheline

Campgottagopee said:


> I've seen them pick up children





> And you forgot to mention the Horse flies, stable flies(the ones that look like houseflies and live in your boat and bite for fun), mosquitos and no-see-ums. At least in winter you don't have to deal with them.


----------



## Ripitz




----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> Has anyone knowledge of black and deer flies around North Creek?



It's the mountains. Bug season is from ~May - ~Aug. It's not too bad in town. Don't know if they spray. Up at our place it's chow city.


----------



## Campgottagopee

Harvey said:


> It's the mountains. Bug season is from ~May - ~Aug. It's not too bad in town. Don't know if they spray. Up at our place it's chow city.



Yep, you need to expect it. Locals don't even seem bothered by them, or at least the ones I know aren't. I'd play golf with my grandfather and he'd never even swat at one. Me??? They drove me f-n crazy!


----------



## Ripitz

raisingarizona said:


> It’s a shame that the ski area doesn’t drop down into town. I think there’s around 1800 verts directly out of Pine Hill and well over 2k if you used a peak viewers left.


Where’s the shuttle bus?


----------



## Benny Profane

Campgottagopee said:


> Yep, you need to expect it. Locals don't even seem bothered by them, or at least the ones I know aren't. I'd play golf with my grandfather and he'd never even swat at one. Me??? They drove me f-n crazy!


I went to Stratton one very late May weekday 2-3 day trip to play golf with the ex, because she loved golf and it was her birthday. It was below thirty when we woke up, but, the forecast was the 70s by afternoon, so, I wore shorts for a 10am tee time. I was a new golfer, and never really recreated in the mountains in late Spring before. I'm, of course, the only person walking around in shorts. Holy jeez, I was bleeding before the back nine. Ferocious, hungry little suckers.


----------



## Benny Profane

Ripitz said:


>


God, I miss that guy.

He's right, some of the country clubs in Westchester sit on the most valuable RE in the world.


----------



## marcski

raisingarizona said:


> It’s a shame that the ski area doesn’t drop down into town. I think there’s around 1800 verts directly out of Pine Hill and well over 2k if you used a peak viewers left.



There could also be almost the same or possibly more vertical going off the old Highmount side into Fleischmanns.


----------



## marcski

Benny Profane said:


> God, I miss that guy.
> 
> He's right, some of the country clubs in Westchester sit on the most valuable RE in the world.



That's why some cost 1/4 of a million dollars to join. Mind you, this is not a bond that you get back when you leave. This is an Admission fee. And then there are yearly dues of probably around 50k (or more) plus a minimum amount you need to spend dining. I don't know who would ever want to even hang out at a place like that, let alone have them steal my money. Country Clubs are just so not me.


----------



## Benny Profane

marcski said:


> That's why some cost 1/4 of a million dollars to join. Mind you, this is not a bond that you get back when you leave. This is an Admission fee. And then there are yearly dues of probably around 50k (or more) plus a minimum amount you need to spend dining. I don't know who would ever want to even hang out at a place like that, let alone have them steal my money. Country Clubs are just so not me.


A lot of them were established when land was much cheaper, and they operate as non profits, so land costs are negated. Still, I agree with you. Country Clubs are an enormous money suck for the upper middle class, with pretty much zero payback for that "investment".


----------



## Duckbutter

XTski said:


> Someone should start up a mountain without chair lifts etc and create place for uphill travel skiers rather then trying to piggyback off a place that is designed for chair lifts


I've always hoped Hickory could be this, but alas snowmaking is now a requirement for skiing in the NE, and as many have pointed out, cheapskate skinners won't want to pay for that.


----------



## Ripitz

Hickory had the snowmaking approvals but it is the lack of low angle terrain that is the holdup. If they could buy the adjacent camp they could have that all the way to the road with a new base area. But apparently they aren’t selling... yet.


----------



## x10003q

JTG said:


> No, it’s also the lack of golf courses, if you want to make NC and Gore into the likes of Stowe, Stratton, Sugarbush, Killington, etc., etc.


The Sagamore Golf Club is a 1928 Donald Ross designed 18 hole course in Bolton Landing. There are a few other 9 hole courses in the area.


JTG said:


> Agree to disagree, but NC doesn’t have much to make it attractive to my family outside of ski season. It also doesn’t have the lodging to attract my family there during the ski season. Coincidence?
> 
> Also, you keep talking slope side housing units, people who want to buy. While I’m sure Gore/NC could support a few dozen such units, like a Magic, that’s not the kind of development I’m talking about. There are a lot more people out there looking to rent hotel rooms and hit a spa than there are people looking to buy mountain condos, I suspect.
> 
> You seem to believe NC is equipped to compete with other major mountain towns. If you build it they will come? If that’s the case, and lack of lakes or golf courses or anything else isn’t a factor.....tell me why it is you think nobody has built it yet.


At least do a little research into what is planned at Ski Bowl Village. Here is some info:








Home- Great Slope-side Adirondack Living at Ski Bowl Village


Learn more about the great skiing and slope-side ambiance of Ski Bowl Village right here! The finest residential development in the entire region, bar none!




skibowlvillage.com




"At completion, Ski Bowl Village is planned to include 136 Townhouses, 18 Single Family Homes, *five hotels*, *a nine-hole par three executive golf course*, restaurants and retail space." There are also planned ski trails to the lookers left of the Hudson Triple that are part of this tract of land that ORDA will operate.

I do not know the reasons (lack of money/no demand/issues with North Creek/issues with ORDA/engineering problems) this project has not moved beyond a few townhouses. The plans include hotel/retail/F&B right next to the Hudson Triple in the Ski Bowl where skiers would have easy access. Maybe they should have started with this location first to create some demand. The approval came in the middle of the 2008 Great Recession and it took years for people to recover. The lack of marketing Gore to the NYC metro area has contributed.

This project's 12+ year delay (and still going) is lost financial opportunity for the area. Almost every major ski area in the Eastern US and Canada has slopeside lodging. Clearly there is demand (rental/ownership) for slopeside housing or it would not exist. It is unfortunate that this has not happened at Gore.


----------



## Brownski

Absent an eccentric billionaire throwing money at the project, somebody has to convince a bank it’s a good risk, right? Seems like the most likely answer is that the banks decided it’s a long shot.


----------



## Harvey

GoodTimes said:


> If you nerf it so much


ROFLMOA


----------



## JTG

x10003q said:


> The Sagamore Golf Club is a 1928 Donald Ross designed 18 hole course in Bolton Landing.


You just proved my point! The mountain towns and resorts that thrive have lakes and golf courses right outside your door....not 30 minutes away.



x10003q said:


> At least do a little research into what is planned at Ski Bowl Village.



Is, or was? I’m aware of what someone wanted to do, but it takes a lot to get from concept on paper, to actual plans and approvals, to execution.



x10003q said:


> It is unfortunate that this has not happened at Gore.



Yes, it is unfortunate, at least for those who long for development in NC. However, as Brownski pointed out, maybe perhaps for some of the reasons we are debating (no lake in town, no golf course in town, etc.), the plans you regret not coming to fruition may just never have been viable from a financial perspective.

I’m not debating the desire and market for slopeside lodging, but extensive development at some mountains just isn’t viable. I agree that NC can be much like Magic (some condo development for those who want to buy), but it will never be like Stowe or Sugarbush, I don’t think.

You don’t accept my reasoning, which is your prerogative, and I suppose time will tell whether NC will see the growth you and I would like to see.


----------



## Zykamps

Curious how often the ski bowl area and burnt ridge, for that matter, are open? I usually ski gore 4 or 5 times a year and have never seen the ski bowl area open and burnt ridge only a handful of times. Is it a weekend only thing?


----------



## marcski

How many townhouses/homes have been built at the Ski Bowl "Village"?


----------



## Benny Profane

x10003q said:


> The Sagamore Golf Club is a 1928 Donald Ross designed 18 hole course in Bolton Landing. There are a few other 9 hole courses in the area.
> 
> At least do a little research into what is planned at Ski Bowl Village. Here is some info:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home- Great Slope-side Adirondack Living at Ski Bowl Village
> 
> 
> Learn more about the great skiing and slope-side ambiance of Ski Bowl Village right here! The finest residential development in the entire region, bar none!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skibowlvillage.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "At completion, Ski Bowl Village is planned to include 136 Townhouses, 18 Single Family Homes, *five hotels*, *a nine-hole par three executive golf course*, restaurants and retail space." There are also planned ski trails to the lookers left of the Hudson Triple that are part of this tract of land that ORDA will operate.
> 
> I do not know the reasons (lack of money/no demand/issues with North Creek/issues with ORDA/engineering problems) this project has not moved beyond a few townhouses. The plans include hotel/retail/F&B right next to the Hudson Triple in the Ski Bowl where skiers would have easy access. Maybe they should have started with this location first to create some demand. The approval came in the middle of the 2008 Great Recession and it took years for people to recover. The lack of marketing Gore to the NYC metro area has contributed.
> 
> This project's 12+ year delay (and still going) is lost financial opportunity for the area. Almost every major ski area in the Eastern US and Canada has slopeside lodging. Clearly there is demand (rental/ownership) for slopeside housing or it would not exist. It is unfortunate that this has not happened at Gore.


I'll bet that most Gore skiers would consider it quite fortunate even half of that isn't there. Five hotels? Wtf? Why? Oh, I know, it's a game, ask for a lot, get just enough, but, still. Isn't Saturday pretty much at capacity for that mountain? You want more skiers? Why?

Did I mention it in this thread? You can buy an older condo near Killington well below 200 grand. Renovated. That's the demand over there, next to a premier hill in Vermont, with very good snow (if it ever snows), long season, and, yes, golf. Big mtb scene, too. I haven't seen much appreciation in RE over there for years. Nothing like prices in the west. The same unit in Summit county that sells for about a half million would sell for maybe 150,000 around Killington. Same age, still a drive to the mountain. That's where the demand is. Rockies. Cheap flights, real snow, rentable. Sorry. The northeast may benefit from this Covid thing right now, a little, but, in a few years, back to slow fade. It just has to snow more, and that ain't happening.


----------



## Ripitz

A full buildout would most likely only benefit the builder who probably skis at the Yellowstone Club not NC


----------



## tirolski

Campgottagopee said:


> I'd play golf with my grandfather and he'd never even swat at one. Me??? They drove me f-n crazy!


Camp, bet it wasn’t a long drive fore ya.


----------



## Duckbutter

Sad how all east coast skiing hopes and dreams are crushed by climate change.

Anyway, about the thread drift and I'm trying to stay optimistic (quixotic) here... my takeaway is that ORDA, as a public agency, has a responsibility to promote health, fitness, and recreation and in theory should be responsive to it's constituency. So, how can skiers get Belleayre and Gore to permit uphill travel? Letter writing? Petitions? Stand in? Rioting (JK, too soon)?

I for one don't mind paying for an uphill pass but I think they should be reasonably priced.


----------



## JTG

Apparently a lot of people are fans of the new WF uphill policy, including the price. They had 35 people sign in to go uphill this morning.


----------



## Ripitz

The whole uphill battle thing always reminds of this funny clip of our snow sliding brethren and how they were largely misunderstood. I’m sure for a lot of people they still are.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XPZDEWBzneY


----------



## Ripitz




----------



## Face4Me

That video is hysterical!


----------



## tirolski

Boarders had an uphill battle too. I heard a story this week that the family who owned Lab son went to, at the time a competitor, Song to snowboard due to Lab’s prohibition at the time. Now ya see more boarders ar Lab than Song, most likely due to less traversing needed.


----------



## Endoftheline

marcski said:


> How many townhouses/homes have been built at the Ski Bowl "Village"?





> I was at Gore a few years ago and I think there were 3 duplex units at that time. I heard from a local Gore skier that one or 2 of them were owned by the initial investors.


----------



## tirolski

This isn’t in a New York uphill battle but relatively nearby.
Lucky they’re alive on this uphill excursion at Mt Washington.




__





Long Sliding Fall – Tuckerman Ravine Trail – MWAC – Mount Washington Avalanche Center







mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org


----------



## Ripitz

So many people underestimate that place. Great when it’s a good day but easy to have it turn bad


----------



## x10003q

tirolski said:


> This isn’t in a New York uphill battle but relatively nearby.
> Lucky they’re alive on this uphill excursion at Mt Washington.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Long Sliding Fall – Tuckerman Ravine Trail – MWAC – Mount Washington Avalanche Center
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org


Wow. Lucky 20 year olds.


----------



## Benny Profane

tirolski said:


> This isn’t in a New York uphill battle but relatively nearby.
> Lucky they’re alive on this uphill excursion at Mt Washington.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Long Sliding Fall – Tuckerman Ravine Trail – MWAC – Mount Washington Avalanche Center
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org


My favorite part: "The incident was reported to snow rangers shortly after noon. Both patients were reportedly conscious, though one potentially had an altered level of consciousness." Yeah, sure, a twenty year old in Tuckerman's in the middle of winter? Good bet.


----------



## tirolski

Benny Profane said:


> My favorite part: “...Both patients were reportedly conscious, though one potentially had an altered level of consciousness."


Benny, Have ya considered they might have had a near death experience and/or saw God? Avi folks also said they bounced off some boulders on the way down. Most likely concussed to boot.


----------



## Ripitz

?⭐️?


----------



## Benny Profane

Nah, never considered that at all.


----------



## raisingarizona

Damn. Those kids got the crap kicked out of them. The photo showing their fall looks brutal. They’re lucky to be alive.


----------



## Ripitz

25+ years ago, in late Fall after Alpine climbing the Pinnacle Route in Huntington Ravine with a friend, I almost took a big one. Down climbing the hiking trail, my pack caught me off center and I windmilled to catch my balance. Not much of a big deal compared to the exposure we had been exposed all day but it would have been 30 ft before my first bounce. Super spooked we then booked it out in the dark to find another individual slid off the trail with a broken leg waiting for rescue. After a sleeping pad splint and a lot of waiting we shared a litter carry with rescue through the night back to Pinkham Notch. I’ve been back since a bunch but not without my eyes wide open and my butt cheeks tight!


----------



## Duckbutter

This seems so reasonable:



https://www.picomountain.com/the-mountain/mountain-info/uphill-travel


----------



## Ripitz

It looks like a lot of access. I like how they put markers on the uphill routes. The downhill signage is on top of the run on the wrong side of the tree. Not much good when you are starting at the bottom. The ski runs always look a lot different on the up. I look forward to checking it out, maybe burn one at Cooper’s cabin


----------



## marcski

They've always had a pretty good uphill policy. It used to be $25. And, Pico, being closed mid-week is the perfect place. I know a bunch of locals skin in the mornings before work.


----------



## Belaña

Anybody know if Windham rents AT gear? I know they do guided AT intro tours but my friend just needs gear ...haven’t found that info on their website ...thanks


----------



## Ripitz

I dunno but I’d love to know what you find out. I have friends that want to rent also


----------



## gefiltephish

Sorry for the late heads up... Jeremy Davis, founder of New England Lost Ski Area Project (NELSAP) is doing a video talk tonight at 7 PM at 









The New England Lost Ski Area Project


Have you ever wondered what happened to your favorite ski area? Why did it close? What was the history behind it? Ever driven by a closed ski area and wondered what it was, its legacy? Can I ski there now!? [NELSAP](http://www.nelsap.org/) was created to answer your questions. Stories, pictures...




mappyhour.org


----------



## Ripitz

gefiltephish said:


> Sorry for the late heads up... Jeremy Davis, founder of New England Lost Ski Area Project (NELSAP) is doing a video talk tonight at 7 PM at https://mappyhour.org/events/2021/02/new-england-lost-ski-area-project.


Caught it just in time. Thanks for the heads up. Nice presentation. I miss the Mt. Greylock Ski Club. We’ve been honoring the travel restrictions. Might have to hit Petersburg Pass soon


----------



## Ripitz

Saddleback has added a dedicated uphill trail








Saddleback embraces skinning, giving skiers unique way to enjoy the mountain — WMTW


Skinning is where skiers put skins on the bottom of their skis, hike up the hill and then ski down.




apple.news


----------



## tirolski

Somebody “Everested" Mt. Pisgah near Saranac Lake. 


> After the mountain’s T-bar lift was closed, Lake Placidian Alex Goff “Everested” the mountain on March 30, a first at Mount Pisgah. That meant skiing the hill up and down 93 times to gain the 29,032 feet in elevation equal to that of Mount Everest, the highest peak in the world.







__





Big winter for a little ski hill | News, Sports, Jobs - Adirondack Daily Enterprise


SARANAC LAKE — In spite of COVID-19 and a rough start to the winter season, the Mount Pisgah Ski Area, like other ski mountains in the Adirondacks, did we




www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Is it time for your resort to embrace uphill traffic instead of just allow it? - SlopeFillers


Uphill access. Since I started skiing 25 years ago, it’s gone from nothing to very much something. Something a small, but loyal (and growing), group of people love. They get some great exercise…




www.slopefillers.com


----------



## Ripitz

Finally!








IOC approves ski mountaineering for 2026 Winter Games


The sport of ski mountaineering has been included in the programme for the 2026 Winter Olympics in Italy's Milan and Cortina D'Ampezzo following approval by the International Olympic Committee on Tuesday.




www.reuters.com


----------



## tirolski

Ripitz said:


> Finally!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IOC approves ski mountaineering for 2026 Winter Games
> 
> 
> The sport of ski mountaineering has been included in the programme for the 2026 Winter Olympics in Italy's Milan and Cortina D'Ampezzo following approval by the International Olympic Committee on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Ya gonna try to be a contender?
YOLO.


----------



## Ripitz

The Slightly Masochistic Trend That Is Taking Skiing by Storm — Bloomberg Businessweek


Here’s the next big thing on two skis—and the gear you’ll need to try it.




apple.news


----------



## x10003q

While many on this board and other boards mock Stratton, once again, Stratton shows its love of winter sports by accomodating those who would like to go uphill at Stratton. The uphill season pass is free. (they were at the forefront of allowing early snowboarders on the trails at Stratton):
"Winter uphill travel is a wonderful way to experience the beauty of Stratton Mountain as well as the surrounding Green Mountains of Southern Vermont. Stratton Mountain is committed to providing an enjoyable and orderly experience for both uphill and downhill guests on the resort."
"All uphill travelers will be required to obtain an uphill travel pass and carry it on their person at all times and be prepared to present the pass to area personnel upon request. *The pass is free*, *valid for the entire season* and can be picked up at Guest Services at the Main Base Lodge."



https://www.stratton.com/the-mountain/safety-and-responsibility/uphill-travel


----------



## Brownski

Excellent point. It’s funny but I’ve found that the hills with lots of lodging and family oriented stuff have the best uphill policies. I think it’s easier for places with non skiers messing around on snowshoes or just hiking in the snow to make room for skinning. Windham is another one that is very accommodating.


----------



## G.ski

I give Stratton credit for having a ton of tree areas between trails.

One of the few places I'm totally OCD about being there at 7:45am though. The main base area is brutal. 

Always park at Sun Bowl.


----------



## x10003q

G.ski said:


> I give Stratton credit for having a ton of tree areas between trails.
> 
> One of the few places I'm totally OCD about being there at 7:45am though. The main base area is brutal.
> 
> Always park at Sun Bowl.


They never let the regular people on until 8:30am sharp or even 8:31am. Not 8:28am or 8:29am. It is so absurd. You can add early access to your season pass.


----------



## Harvey

x10003q said:


> They never let the regular people on until 8:30am sharp or even 8:31am. Not 8:28am or 8:29am. It is so absurd. You can add early access to your season pass.


If it was my home mountain I'd probably do this. At least it's a season cost. How much?


----------



## x10003q

Harvey said:


> If it was my home mountain I'd probably do this. At least it's a season cost. How much?


Stratton's First Tracks is not worth buying. It allows you on the mountain at 7:45am only on weekends/holidays. Most of the time it is just groomed out cord. It is included in the Stratton only $1249 Summit pass. You can add it to a full Ikon only for $399. I only get the base Ikon because I never go near Stratton on holidays. If it is a decent snow on a weekend we head to Magic.

I have been first up (8:30) at Stratton mid-week multiple times after an overnight 5"-8" snowfall, and most of the trails are tracked out. I think they let anybody with an employee pass and all 130 Stratton Mountain School students plus teachers and coaches on the mountain before they let the general public on the lifts.

"Enjoy first tracks with exclusive early lift access at 7:45am during select weekends and holidays. First Tracks is included in the Summit Pass. Ikon Pass holders have the option to add First Tracks for $399. *Share First Tracks with friends as add-on to your pass for $429* per person."


https://www.stratton.com/plan-your-trip/tickets-and-passes/season-passes/pass-faq


----------



## tirolski

x10003q said:


> Stratton's First Tracks is not worth buying...
> 
> I have been first up (8:30) at Stratton mid-week multiple times after an overnight 5"-8" snowfall, and most of the trails are tracked out. I think they let anybody with an employee pass and all 130 Stratton Mountain School students plus teachers and coaches on the mountain before they let the general public on the lifts.


Doesn’t sound like a lot of first tracks to me either.


----------



## gorgonzola

When at Stratton I prefer staying on the pond side on the Catamount Trail


----------



## NYSkiBlog




----------



## NYSkiBlog




----------



## tirolski

_We ask that you help spread the word on our uphill policy and proper etiquette and we are hopeful we can open it back up in the near future.

If "Ski Free or Die" is your mantra, this is not your playground._

Golfing etiquette is learned.
Skiing etiquette, whatever that may be, is too.
Snowboarding etiquette exists someplaces as well.


----------



## Ripitz

Bad apples


----------



## Harvey

tirolski said:


> "Ski Free or Die"


Direct reference to this group:









Granite Backcountry Alliance Ski Free Or Die Trucker Hat


Everyone knows New Hampshire's motto "Live Free or Die" so if your life revolves around skiing in the granite land, this hat is for you. Show people what you care about while supporting the Granite Backcountry Alliance organization. This hat is perfect for skinning up on sunny days, hanging out...




skithewhites.com


----------



## dubstar

I may have missed it, but does anyone know specific resort policies regarding uphill travel after closing day when there is still significant snow pack on the trails? As we know, closing dates are often dictated by economic factors rather than actual snow conditions. Specifically if anyone has any experience with Windham, as that is my home mountain. The policies listed online can be interpreted differently depending on your perspective / goals. Thanks.


----------



## Brownski

Interpret them in a way that favors what you want to do, be inconspicuous, and don't talk about it til you’re done is my advice.


And then post some pics.


----------



## Benny Profane

Does Windham allow before lifts spin?


----------



## dubstar

Benny Profane said:


> Does Windham allow before lifts spin?



Yes, during "daylight" hours with either a regular season pass or an affordable uphill season pass. Day passes are limited to operational lift hours . The policy seems fairly low-key and as long as you stay out of the way of mountain ops, they seem happy to allow it.


----------



## NYSkiBlog

Black Mountain owner says Ski the Whites events were 'like a bad high school dance' - New England Ski Journal


The divorce between Black Mountain and Ski the Whites really started brewing at the very beginning of the relationship.




www.skijournal.com


----------



## gorgonzola

this is why we can't have nice things


----------



## saratogahalfday

NYSkiBlog said:


> Black Mountain owner says Ski the Whites events were 'like a bad high school dance' - New England Ski Journal
> 
> 
> The divorce between Black Mountain and Ski the Whites really started brewing at the very beginning of the relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.skijournal.com


Good for him. I know some other mountain owners who would have handled that without the police, if you know what I mean.


----------

