January’s Interview with Mike Pratt was one of the most widely read pieces ever published on NYSkiBlog. At that time, he promised to allow us to follow up in the offseason.
I had a chance to connect with Mike this past week on issues related to Gore, the ORDA budget, summer projects, the rebirth of Little Gore, parking and of course snowmaking.
NYSkiBlog: What projects you are working on this off-season?
Mike: We’re performing our annual maintenance on the lift grips and line machinery.
We’re preparing for the Scenic Gondola rides and the Mountain Bike operation with some new, exciting terrain. We’re making trails easier for the cross country bikers and giving the downhillers more options. We will be opening Sat and Sun May 22-23 and 29-30.
And we’re working on the new bridge over Roaring Brook – back filling and preparing for the deck installation. We’ll accelerate construction after we complete our annual maintenance.
NYSB: There are rumors that budget issues may affect the planned opening of Little Gore. Do you still think the Ski Bowl lift will operate in 2010/2011?
Mike: Yes, I do.
NYSB: What are you hearing about the NY state budget process and its impact on ORDA and Gore?
Mike: The NYS budget situation is not good no matter how you look at it. ORDA and Gore are continually analyzing and evaluating our operations and watching our expenses.
NYSB: What are the plans for paid parking next year? Will it continue? If so, what modifications will you make based on this year’s experience? Will you publish a paid parking schedule in advance of the season?
Mike: There will certainly be paid parking again next year. The schedule will be similar to this year: weekends and holidays. And we will publish an official schedule before the season.
NYSB: What is your feeling about leaving more trails to bump up? What trails do you think would work as semi-permanent bump trails? Would you consider a low angle trail for beginning bumpers?
Mike: We are not against having moguls. The permanent bump trail concept is weather dependent. If you remember Sagamore two seasons ago, the bumps were great, but the trail was closed more than it was open. If grooming opens a trail, we’ll groom it. We want good snow on our trails; whether it’s bumped or groomed.
We have allowed extended moguls on Chatiemac, Hawkeye, Rumor and Lies on the summit; Topridge and Fairview on Bear; Sagamore on Burnt; and the Arena, Little Dipper and Quicksilver on the East Side. We’ll continue to offer bumps when it makes sense.
NYSB: We’ve heard that the requirements for racing dictate the use of Twister or Echo. Is it possible to use other trails for racing?
Mike: Topridge is certified for upper level Slalom. Twister is certified for Slalom, Giant Slalom, Super G, and entry level Downhill. Echo satisfies the standards for Slalom and Giant Slalom. We’d need to widen and modify other trails for them to use them for racing.
NYSB: Does topography allow for a traverse through the bottom section of Sagamore glades, making it easier to access the BRQ? Would it be possible to keep the race course above such a traverse?
Mike: The topography doesn’t allow for traversing to Burnt Ridge.
NYSB: This was a tough year with less than average natural snow. (We counted 120 inches of snow this year vs Gore’s seasonal average of 150). In our interview last January, you indicated that the current limit on snowmaking was pumping capacity.
Are there current plans or a timeline for upgrading Gore’s pumping capacity to keep pace with terrain additions? Any other upgrades to snowmaking planned for next year?
Mike: The simple answer is that natural snow really makes a difference – especially for expert skiers. Generous natural snowfall allows us to target the steeps without having to work across flats.
We are always making behind the scenes improvements to the snowmaking system that allow for better production.
NYSB: Can you tell me what will happen this summer on snowmaking? Any new guns?
Mike: It’s too soon to claim more than modifications and efficiency improvements. But, I hope to be able to give you some news on this soon.
The next big capacity increase will require more pumps. And we’ll need to modify to our intake manifold and a transformer to feed a new motor control center. This is all a coordinated process that we are working towards, but I can’t commit to a time frame now.
NYSB: Last January you told me Gore can blow 15 acres of snow, a foot deep, in 24 hours. What would it take, and how much would it cost, to double that to 30 acres?
Mike: The improvements described above will allow for that type of dramatic increase. Ultimately, an investment of at least $1.5 million is required. This includes intake, manifold, pumps, starters, electric service, etc. Some of that can expenditure can be stretched out, but much of that money would have to be spent upfront.
NYSB: People REALLY want to understand why Gore would expand terrain without adding more pumping capacity. Does the money for terrain come from one place and snowmaking from another? Is terrain more marketable than snowmaking? What is the reasoning?
Mike: Terrain does market better. But that’s not really what this is about. When we had the chance to develop Burnt Ridge and reopen the historic terrain at the Ski Bowl, we took it. I don’t know too many other mountain managers who wouldn’t do the same.
We continually analyze our carrying capacities to match and balance each. This is why we didn’t build the new parking lot “F” until after the Northwoods Lodge was in place. I think we’ve done a good job of sequencing modernization, increasing capacities, and expanding. We continually challenge ourselves by creating the next limitation.
Our last increase in pumping capacity was 3 or 4 years ago. After this season we’ll have expanded close to our legal terrain/lift limits. Going forward pumping capacity is a huge priority.
One important point about the addition of Little Gore Terrain: The Ski Bowl trails, will be fed directly from the Hudson River Pump House, so the additional pumping requirements are already accounted for.
NYSB: So you’re saying the pumphouse at the river will handle all the snowmaking for the Ski Bowl, and Little Gore does NOT add to the load on the upper mountain system?
Mike: That’s exactly right. We have two separate pump houses: One down at the Hudson and the other right below the North Quad. We can run either system independently or both systems in series. The upper pump house can be supplied from our reservoir or the river. The reservoir refills naturally, but we use the river to replenish the reservoir when we are blowing at full capacity.
NYSB: Mike – I think this is an important point. It means that adding the Ski Bowl terrain is a no brainer.
Mike: Yes, the Ski Bowl trails, including Eagles Nest, will be supplied directly from the river.
NYSB: How much of the new terrain will be piped for snowmaking for this upcoming season?
Mike: Eagle’s Nest, Oak Ridge and Peaceful Valley will get plumbing this year. It’s also possible that 46er will also have snowmaking this year.
NYSB: Midweek terrain continues to be an issue with passholders. Personally, I like the idea of committing to the High Peak chair on Thursdays or Fridays to try to capture more destination skiers. What do you think about this idea?
Mike: It’s a good idea. We’ll consider anything we can do to get people to extend their stays. We work with over 90 properties now and are trying to grow our passholder base, as well as our destination business. The promotions we have target slower (mid-week) days. We really try to work with local lodging to make North Creek a great choice for winter vacations.
A thread on the SkiAdk.com Gore Forum was posted to collect suggestions to improve the mountain. Many good ideas were posted, but based on the budget situation, I’m going to limit the following list to those that have little or no additional cost. What do you think about:
Suggestion 1: Running paid parking perpendicular to last year’s alignment to allow early birds to park close.
Mike: The one way loop works really well. We are discussing shape and impacts, but, in my opinion, compared to other mountains, all our parking is close to the lodge.
Suggestion 2: In/Out signs on the double lodge doors to reduce confusion and congestion.
Mike: OK, I haven’t heard that one before. We think the changes we’ve made to the base lodge in the last two years have really helped the flow through the lodge. The next big improvement for the traffic patterns in the lodge will be moving the BBQ off the other side of the patio, expanding the northern vestibule, and installing a second set of double doors. This should happen next summer.
Suggestion 3: A separate lounge for racers – like the newly opened area in the bottom of the lodge – to reduce congestion on the main floor.
Mike: The front area congestion is something we are trying to control. During race registration, we will do a better job of communicating where to congregate. We need to work with big groups too.
Suggestion 4: A “kids glade” next to Wild Air or Showcase.
Mike: Wild Air it is.
NYSB: You’re going to do this? That would be very cool.
Mike: Yes we’ll do it.
NYSB: We noticed you posted our revised trail map a few days ago. It’s got BarkEater on it, another huge glade, that may be second in size only to the Cirque in the state. It’s a beauty.
BAM! One point for SIAWOL….
Suggestion 4: A “kids glade” next to Wild Air or Showcase.
Mike: Wild Air it is.
NYSB: So…. you’re going to do this? That would be very cool.
Mike: Yes we’ll do it.
The “kid’s” glade or as i like to call it, blue square, was in discussion this past winter. It is obvious that the glades have become a large draw for Gore, and making them for most ability levels will follow. it has taken roughly about 10 years, but management finally gets the fact that PEOPLE LIKE TO SKI IN THE WOODS! 🙂
Wild Air may not be the best location for the kiddie glade. There is already too much unnecessary traffic which causes accidents in the terrain park. The new glade there will just cause more people getting cut off, more people angry, and more people getting hurt. Terrain Park employees have enough time trying to educate the weekend warriors of “park etiquette”, combining a terrain park with a glade will just make this more difficult; especially when our target audience whom we're preaching to may not even be there for the park.
Over the next few years, you will see almost all of the lower mountain area developed into glades between the existing “groomed” trails. This, to me, is the way it should be, ski it all.
If Gore is going to keep up with other areas, the gladed terrain, as well as the terrain park will have to keep expanding. Hopefully this can be done with benefits to all.
If they’re running DC motors or VFD drives on their pump motors, they can overspeed them a bit to drive up some capacity (up to 10%). Don’t know (obviously) if they’ve done that, or if the intake could handle it.
Harvey, great interview, and good on you to ask the tough questions, even if Mike answered most of them like a politician (or I guess, like the state employee that he is).
This line is a classic and deserves a place in the ski blog Hall of Fame:
Mike: We are not against having moguls.
Good work Harv. Keep the stoke going!
Expanding out terrain parks would be an awesome way to keep up with other big name resorts… if it were done properly. Unfortunately, putting it on the most popular trail on the lower mountain isn't the smartest, safest, most efficient way to do it.
I say move the parks back to Upper and Lower Sleighride, and keep the small, medium, and large parks separate. Make Upper a medium sized park with primarily rails, and a few stalls/jibs. Turn Lower into the large park with our biggest rails, and BIG jumps. If Whiteface can have three 50 foot jumps in a row, why is it that we can’t have a single one?
Ward Hill and Little Dipper barely get any traffic. Commit one of them to a small, lift accessed, family friendly terrain park while making the other a mellow beginner bump run to create opportunity for an intermediate trail for bump skiing lessons (another awesome program you could add to increase the already high ski school ratings). It will spread more people across the mountain so trails are less crowded as well as keep the people safer and happier in terrain parks. The big boys can play where they want without having to worry about getting cut off or people sitting on the landing and families can still ski a full length run on beginner to intermediate terrain all while satisfying their children’s (or their own) urge to get some sweet air. The transition from the deck to landing of a jump isn’t meant to be skied on, nor is it a second jump. Lips for rails are meant to be used to jump onto rails; they’re not just jumps with funny metal things put behind them to distract you. If people can be separated by skill level to keep them safer and happier, doesn’t it seem like a no-brainer to do that?
Woods along Wild Air would be an awesome idea if the parks got moved back to the Sleighride. If not, it’s just going to cause more collisions, more confusion, and more angry people. If the majority of the features in the park are along skier’s right, you’re just going to have more people cutting in and out of the woods onto the inruns and landings of the features. Another spectacular way to cause accidents.
Glades between the majorities of the lower mountain trails is an awesome idea, except you’re forgetting about the exposed snowmaking pipe down the side of the trails. Those things are dangerous.
OK let’s stop the confusion of “people will be cutting in and out of the woods in the park.”
There is a brook which is a natural barrier, that runs parallel with Wild Air, that will steer the skiers and riders in the woods to the right AWAY from Wild Air. The glades are being cut to take advantage of this. So, do not be worried.
In regards to Wild Air being “the most popular trail on the lower mountain”, I think not. The terrain park was put there because that trail is a joke. I fully agree with your other comments regarding the improvements for the parks, but remember, Gore is not Whiteface. Gore will NEVER, as long as the present management and patrol leaders are on the clock, have a park that is considered to be “quality”.
Just my 2 cents. 🙂
Is it winter yet?
Keep in mind that we do not yet know the exact location of the entrance & exit to the proposed new Wild Air glade. Those woods could be accessed from skier’s left of Sunway just beyond its junction with Wild Air. But if the glade is accessed from Wild Air, it should be a simple matter to move the start of the terrain park a little further down WA so that it begins below the glade entrance. I’ve always thought the park features seemed too spread out along the entire length of WA anyway. Additionally, perhaps a re-configuration of the park on WA could provide better separation between park users and non-users. I agree with Fuje that there were some issues with the park config last year, but DS Shaman is right: the proposed WA glade won’t be much of a conflict. Personally I think the WA glade will be a great addition and hope to see more on the lower mountain.
It’s interesting to me that so much attention in the Comments has been given so far to the proposed WA glade. For me, the big issue is the discussion with Mike about snowmaking. It seems there is at least a recognition that major improvements in snowmaking capacity is a big priority. The need for those improvements was pretty apparent last winter. Also, I think the explanation that the Ski Bowl will not put additional demand upon the rest of the upper mtn snowmaking system is big news for many readers: it was to me.
I kinda suspected that the kids glade wasn't a new idea. Usually if you propose a NEW idea to Mike, and he LIKES it, he’ll say something like … “that’s something we should look at” … not YES! I do think they should be able control the access to Wild Air.
Thanks to Shaman for the light shed on the layout. Got multiple PMs about this issue … park riders are concerned. I’ll see if I can pass it up the line.
Have to say I’m with Jeff … I was surprised that the snowmaking thing didn’t elicit much response. It’s a big deal to me. I do think we’re going to have to pray harder for snow until NY State gets it budget issues worked out.
Got some real insight from people off-line … come on folks post it up! 😉
I always figured expanding snowmaking capacity is nice, but not if they’re unwilling to spend the money running it. When money gets tight, turning those switches off is the quickest way to start saving…
For your next meeting with Pratt, I'd like to hear more about the lessons learned from the parking debacle — not so much the nuts and bolts about where to put people's cars, but the part about effectively communicating with the public.
Seems like that’s where the ball was dropped, and that’s where a lot of Gore’s online food fights (about parking, snowmaking and other issues) originated: not so much the policies themselves, but non-existent or badly executed communications. If Harv hadn’t given management the opportunity to explain itself, there would have been radio silence all season long.
I very greatly doubt the Ski Bowl won’t put a load on the main mtn’s snowmaking. Why else would they need the PUMPS!/intake/manifold upgrades? Pratt has stated that both existing pumps are needed to operate the main mtn at capacity. Diverting any pump to the SB will not permit the main mtn to receive the water it needs because as last season demonstrated, the main mtn does NOT has enough snowmaking capacity. To divert any of that to the SB will be to reduce the main mtn’s coverage even more. If this wasn’t true, there would be no need for the pumps/intake upgrades Pratt mentioned. Last year, Pratt assured us he was blowing snow as much as possible! Now he and you guys say diverting it to the SB won’t matter. It just doesn’t add up.
Plus, Pratt doesn’t have enough crew or money to operate the main mtn snowmaking let alone the addition of the SB. Last year Pratt repeatedly said he was doing all he could to cover the main mtn. If you think taking any of that away and putting it on the SB won’t effect the main mtn you are wrong. Pratt best snow job is here and it's a Public Relations snow job.
He gives vague responses…”We’re not against moguls " and people believe it means there’s a mogul trail coming….
NYSB: Little Gore does NOT add to the load on the upper mountain system?
Mike: That’s exactly right.
Yea right! and the cow jumped over the moon, Clinton didn’t have sex with Lewinski….Come On People!!!
Pratt does not have the snowmaking capacity, the extra money or the employees to cover the SB without it effecting the main mtn!
Does Gore even have permission to draw more water from the Hudson?
This has become the source for Gore info. Big kudos to Harvey.
I think the “add terrain” and fill in the snowmaking later is a good plan. Adding the snowmaking (pumps/pipes/etc) is easier than adding terrain. If they added the snowmaking horsepower before the terrain, the terrain might never exist (permits expire, cost, budgets).
I do hope the whole lower section from Twister to Sunway is made available for tree skiing. Glade skiing next to Wild Air is a good start.
Harv – Please ask about the lack of web cams. I check multiple cams at multiple web sites every day during the season. Gore is one of the few larger areas without cams.
Dear Mr Pratt:
I really appreciate your talking to Harv again, and your willingness to do more to make your loyal skiers happy.
If you are reading these comments (I hope you are!) I wanted you to get the two cents from someone who grew up at Gore as a child, learned to ski there, and now is the parent of skiing children.
Most of the posters on this blog and similar forums tend to be experienced and expert skiers, so you are constantly hearing from people who want more glades, more steeps, and of course more snowmaking on Rumor and Sagamore. And that's all well and good.
But speaking for the children who are the future of the sport, I hope you can keep the younguns and beginners in mind too. For starters, Wild Air may be a great improvement over the earlier terrain park in the Gully (old Goree Gully as I remember it). But your competition, from Bromley, to Stratton, to Okemo, to Mt Snow, also provide “junior” terrain parks, for those 10 year olds just starting out on boards. How about a mini park around the Sunway T-bar (Oops, chair, showing my age again). Wild Air appears to be no place for a 9 year old boarder on his 3rd lesson.
Also, I was distressed to see that your beginner terrain melted away by March 20th of this year, after the first warmup to 70 degrees in mid-March. Yes, warmth happens in March. But Vermont areas prepare for it, by blowing piles and piles of snow near the base lodge, then spreading them out over thin spots in March.
From everything I heard and read in thee daily snow report this year, Gore never thought of that one. Result: by the third week of March, with 2 to 3 weeks of season still to go, the Cub Run was melted and closed, offering nothing for families with newbie skiers. Once again, those families, the future of Gore, were sent scurrying across the border to Vermont, where all the above ski areas continued to offer beginner carpet lifts until Easter. And might I add that Bromely faces SOUTH, into the sun, and still had beginner terrain open April 1st.
I understand from friends that Gore posted some clever billboards at the Vermont border last year, urging NY-ers heading to Okemo, Mt Snow, etc, to turn back for “More Gore” with bigger vertical. Great marketing, kudos to you. But if you are not offering enough terrain for all skiers –especially those families with 2 or 3 young children — then all the Ski Bowl interconnects in the world won’t keep them from heading to VT.
Sincerely,
70’s Gore Kid
Snowballs, the weaknesses in Gore’s snowmaking operations were apparent last season. But I think the basic engineering behind Mike’s explanation is correct. The upper pumping station drives all of the snowmaking on the upper mountain, including BR. The pumping station at the Hudson is currently only used to re-supply the reservoir. Gore has more than enough capacity down there to keep the reservoir full. Right now, snowmaking is limited by the upper pumping station. It only makes sense that using excess capacity at the Hudson pumping station to blow at the Ski Bowl will not place additional load on the upper mountain pumps.
Your point still stands that Gore may not have the budget for Ski Bowl snowmaking ops and utilities cost. Here’s hoping we get 250 inches of natural each year until we get a capacity upgrade.
Jeff, Pratt said when the main mtn snowmaking is operating at full capacity then both pumps are needed. Either way, he’s not gonna switch the river pump back and forth every couple hours. The SB lines/nozzles would drain/freeze and the hired help would be constantly running back and forth and dragging equipment back to a warm area to thaw out hoses and guns. Extremely inefficient even for Gore. Harv’s January Pratt Chat….
MP: Tuesday night, late, the power went out on the entire mountain – the entire 35,000 volt distribution system. When the power goes out – on the active lines, hoses and nozzles freeze.
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Also, his main mtn “full capacity” blows just a few trails as it is, so we can not afford to have any of it diverted to SB or the main mtn would not get covered until August.
ALSO he has very limited air capacity that he and Harv did not address. The air capacity will not support both areas simultaneously even if the river pump switched to SB. According to Harv’s January Pratt Chat…
MP: We always strive to maximize the pumping capacity. When we are limited by air capacity it is typically when it is marginal and our production is less because we have water to spare.
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So you see, he can’t switch back and forth. He doesn’t have sufficient air compression. He doesn’t have the funds. He doesn’t have the manpower.
Bottom line…. he’s snow jobbing here and he will not be able to cover it all. Last year the main mtn was beyond Gore’s snowmaking ability and BR was not even open very much. Now add in SB and it’s WAAAAY over capacity.
Sorry, but Pratt’s own statements and Gore’s history does not support the conclusion that the snowmaking at SB will not detract from the main mtn’s already poor snow making.
Don’t forget, unless there’s snowmaking on the Pipeline trail, access to SB will be VERY scarce. So Pratt has to add snowmaking to the Pipeline Trail(over a mile). Either way, without a major boost in capacity, and funds from ORDA to operate it and man it the whole snowmaking picture is very, very bleak. I don’t see the State kicking in another 3-5 million to accomplish this for YEARS to come. The next 3 years NY is 60 billion short in it’s budget. Maybe ORDA has a cash stash, but I doubt they would bypass installing snowmaking Hoyt’s High to fund Gore’s snowmaking impotence and they’re not keen on the Ski Bowl project to begin with.
Snowballs you are answering your own question with all of your useless rhetoric. Just make the move and got to Kmart, you will fit in there nicely, and you will not be missed here! 🙂
>I'm surprised there wasn't more discussion regarding moguls and mid-week terrain / lift closures. I think more moguled terrain is tied to the need for snowmaking capacity. And keeping more of the mountain open for the mid-week skier is something Gore should do now. Specifically, the High Peaks chair should be run more often. Harv's idea of Thurs & Fri sounds pretty reasonable to me.
DS – you speak like a true Darkside Charlatan! One who pretends to possess knowledge but infact does not! You can not refute any if the valid points I raised and supported with evidence so you attack me personally. A sure sign of immaturity and an inability to debate.
I feel the community deserves a legitimate critical examination of Gore’s issues not just some whitewashing of Gore's problems. If you want to continue playing make believe you are free to perpetually practice your voodoo!
I’ll thank Harv for providing me an opportunity to rebutt Pratt and cross examine Pratt's statements but I will not make any apology to you DS when I raise legitimate concerns which are supported by evidence in the existing record.
Thanks Harv!
Bye Bye snowballs!
Have a nice life.
James, you’re right. I should have asked about the lessons learned on parking. Although I think we’ll see what, if any, differences there are in the setup next season.
Snowballs – I’m sure that IF the Ski Bowl really got priority, it would divert resources from the top. I can’t speak for Mike, but I think he’s saying the limiting factor on ideal days (cold and dry) is pumping capacity. So 15 acres blown at the Bowl may not mean 15 acres less up top. No doubt that all resources (water, electric, labor) cost money and it’ll be very tight.
Personally, I don’t think there’s any intention to mislead. How would that help him? Mike’s an employee. Like many of us in the current environment, he’s facing adversity. Good employees don’t tell their customers the sky is falling, especially when nothing is certain. If you worked for ORDA how would you handle this situation?
You make a good point about Pipeline. It obviously has a pipe, but no air or snowmaking.
I have to agree with Xman. If I was in charge and given the chance to expand Gore’s terrain onto BR and into Little Gore … I’d take it, and hope that I could get the water later. In the long term, the Hudson is probably a huge advantage for Gore.
70’s Gore Kid … I know you’re a Gore lover. You make a good point about the bottom. I’ve ALWAYS thought there should be a fan gun running at the bottom, two days a week no matter what.
I do think Gore does prioritize families. They spend a bundle on them … New Gondola to Bear, Ruby Run, Northwoods Lodge. Sunway is a priority. I’ll never forget going to Belleayre with Jamesdeluxe after the big ugly NCP event in January. Bell was hammering the bump runs exclusively. Upper level skiers were smilin’ while beginners were skiing the scratch.
They’ve started cutting the Wild Air Glades, so it’s definitely looking like something Pratt&Co had in mind already. Oh but where’s the entrance? Right between where the two top jumps were. Sounds like a SPECTACULAR spot to cut people off.
Wild Air primarily consists larger features. As 70’s Gore Kid stated, it’s not exactly a place where you want you children hanging around. Those jumps are big for a reason, which isn’t to be rolled over the back of as a 4 ft tall drop. Nor are the landings intended to be steeper inclines to ski sideways across. People trying to use the jump like that are the ones who are going to get hurt. Their completely invisible to the people trying to use the jump as it’s intended.
Who’s going to be the majority of people using this glade? The expert skiers aware of their surroundings? No. The average family who comes out skiing 5 times a year who wants to bring their kids in the woods. Oh how convenient, more ignorant people to cut others off in the park and cause accidents.
It should be possible to re-configure the upper portion of the Wild Air terrain park to lessen the possible conflict between park users and glade skiers.
Got to agree with 70s skier. Mike P. see my earlier posts about “piles” of snow. These can be moved around easily when properly situated. Last day of Gore, we were on 2-0 wide trail at the bottom. Piles of deep snow were 100-200 feet away. This could have been pushed before the mud showed through.
Harv–you are awesome, keep it up.
Haha you have to know the man. People you cant please everyone and SNOWBALLS your dead wrong. New snowmaking at the SB does not affect anything above it. and if you people are really going to complain about the mountain well then so that instead of asking for more glades and steeps. You should be asking for more money for the employees that on the regular get boned and bust ass for next to nothing pay. No contracts and no inter office grade increases. And god help them if they complain. They know that the file cabinet is full of applications and no one employee is safe from layoffs and the possibility of speaking up and getting replenished with fresh new staff that does not complain. Oh you guys want more fun when you ski huh well north creek residents want to eat and have a xmas for the kids. Fuck the upgrades for a year and pay the workers.