Poll: The Impact of the Epic Pass

[Harvey]

I don't think mega-passes have reduced the cost of skiing. They certainly haven't reduced the cost of putting out a good product.

Regardless of the hype, skier visits are basically flat over the last 10 or 20 years (someone post the chart). So if skiers are actually paying less to ski, then ski resorts are less profitable or less is being spent on putting out the product. What is really going on (as sno has pointed out) is the unbundling.

Cost are being shifted. Skiers are either not figuring that out, or have changed their behavior to adjust, like booting up in the car. Maybe not a huge hassle, but I don't think anyone argues that improves the experience to get dressed outdoors.

If anything is elite-ist it's the "ski midweek" stuff. It's not scalable for the bulk of skiers who drive the industry. Midweek skiers are a necessary cost, not a profit center.

 

[x10003q]

ive tried but for the weather has conspired against me...thur/fri have been crap for skiing...

I know this to be a fact.

 

[sig]

Based on my commute and office parking lot, I have to believe midweek ski numbers are coming down.

 

[snoloco]

I don't think mega-passes have reduced the cost of skiing. They certainly haven't reduced the cost of putting out a good product.

Regardless of the hype, skier visits are basically flat over the last 10 or 20 years (someone post the chart). So if skiers are actually paying less to ski, then ski resorts are less profitable or less is being spent on putting out the product. What is really going on (as sno has pointed out) is the unbundling.

Cost are being shifted. Skiers are either not figuring that out, or have changed their behavior to adjust, like booting up in the car. Maybe not a huge hassle, but I don't think anyone argues that improves the experience to get dressed outdoors.

If anything is elite-ist it's the "ski midweek" stuff. It's not scalable for the bulk of skiers who drive the industry. Midweek skiers are a necessary cost, not a profit center.

To know if the cost of skiing has gone down, you need to analyze the per-visit cost of each guest.

If you buy a pass for 700 dollars and go to Stowe 40 times, your per-visit cost is 17.50 each day. But then factor in paying 30 dollars for parking every time and you're up to 47.50. Multiply by 40 and you get to 1900, which isn't any different than the cost of a season pass there pre-Epic.

However, if the same person went to Okemo 40 times, they'd pay nothing for parking and their per visit cost would be 17.50 again, because Okemo does not charge for parking.

For western trips, I find what you're not paying for lift tickets, you just end up paying for lodging instead. The prices are absolutely ridiculous at some destinations. Sure, you don't need to pay 100 dollars a day to ski, but does that really help you when you're dealing with 1000 a night lodging? Also, good luck finding any lodging in the first place.

One issue I'm seeing on the Ikon side of things is partner resorts becoming territorial. As more and more have started requiring reservations, or removed themselves from the base pass entirely, it increases crowding at the ones that remain on. The cycle repeats itself and more resorts will require reservations or take other measures to limit access. The base pass in particular has been significantly devalued from when it was originally introduced. I do expect this trend to continue.

I stand by my previous statement that the Epic Pass and mega passes in general helped to revitalize a struggling industry, but it would also be disingenuous to suggest that there have been no negative impacts.

 

[Harvey]

To know if the cost of skiing has gone down, you need to analyze the per-visit cost of each guest.

We know the cost of supplying skiing hasn't gone down. Wages, energy, most everything up.

revitalize a struggling industry,

We will see in the visit numbers.

If costs are the same, but moved from lift tickets to elsewhere is that a negative impact?

 

[rfreeman]

I definitely spend more total on skiing as a result of having Indy and Epic passes if one includes travel and lodging expenses.

But I get a much better experience than I did mostly doing day trips to Poconos, and ski a lot more days than I used to, so I consider them a great deal.

 

[x10003q]

We know the cost of supplying skiing hasn't gone down. Wages, energy, most everything up.


We will see in the visit numbers.

We already know the numbers. Last year (2021-2022) ranked number 1 for ski area visits in the USA (according to the National Ski Area Association).

https://nsaa.org/webdocs/Media_Public/IndustryStats/Historical_Skier_Days_1979_2022.pdf

If costs are the same, but moved from lift tickets to elsewhere is that a negative impact?

There are still options to avoid costs. Sno IDed one example.

As for midweek skiing, many more people are skiing midweek due to changing work rules. Last year, we took a week at Killington with some of my family. At various times there were work meetings in the morning and skiing in the afternoon or 2 days skiing followed by a day of work, all while staying at Killington. Midweek skiing also drives big profits in the Rockies/Western USA. Generally, Rockies/Western midweek lodging prices are not that much cheaper than weekend lodging and sometimes they are the same price.

I realize those of us with kids or strict office attendance cannot enjoy midweek skiing so easily, but it was pretty much impossible to ski midweek when I was younger even when I did not have kids due to my jobs unless I used sparse vacation days. I wish I could have been remote every now and then to grab some midweek skiing.

 

[MC2]

If anything is elite-ist it's the "ski midweek" stuff. It's not scalable for the bulk of skiers who drive the industry. Midweek skiers are a necessary cost, not a profit center.

I didn’t realize the simmering hatred you had for midweek skiers until these last few posts of yours.

As a weekend skier, I aspire to be a midweek skier someday. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

It’s kind of crazy how much of our entire economy is based on giving retired people great off-peak time experiences (at ski areas, on golf courses, at beaches, etc.), while the rest of us rush to fit in our “leisure” activities after work, on weekends, and on holidays. You can look at it as a small reward for a lifetime of work, or you can be angry about it, I guess.

Either way, it’s a decision we’ve made as a society (subsidizing leisure for those with leisure time). Old people vote (with their ballots & wallets). Of course they’re are going to vote for more leisure time away from the crowds. Societal changes that I prefer (free college, 4-day workweeks, actual paid overtime for everyone) are decidedly unpopular among the people that vote, so I don’t see the dynamic shifting anytime soon.

Anyway, talking about miserly seniors doesn’t encompass the diversity of the “midweek skier”. Vacationing midweek skiers out west & large groups of skiers in the east (think about British school groups at Killington) are most definitely a profit center. And Plattekill keeps selling out the midweek mountain rentals. There must be some money in it somewhere.

 

[Ripitz]

HOW DARE YE SPEAK MIDWEEK SKI

 

[jasonwx]

I’m off thur Fri sat
Seems to rain or sub zero on thur or Fri.
Hopefully next season