Poll: The Impact of the Epic Pass

[MarzNC]

I think it’s a missed opportunity to try and address the crowding that’s damaged their brand. IMO Vail (and IKON) need to introduce a better mechanism to prevent pass holders from all showing up on the best days of the season. Skier visits and lift times at Vail resorts might only be slightly up on average, but those select days each season when the traffic spikes due to powder or optimal conditions are what’s resulting in the egregious lift lines and a cheapened experience.

Would be good to know how much VR resorts limited day tickets during holiday periods.

Hardest part is when people have Epic passes, plane tickets and lodging booked for a holiday period in Dec or Jan . . . and then it doesn't snow enough in Nov and Dec. They already paid a premium to be able to ski during holiday blackout dates. For 2021-22, staffing issues due to the pandemic made the situation even worse.

A couple of Ikon Partners (JH, Taos) required reservations for Ikon holders, but most didn't. However, there were quite a few that made it clear that day tickets would be limited and that buying in advance online was highly recommended for busy days.

 

[tirolski]

Agree, it’s not an easy problem to solve, and to be clear—I don’t think the full Epic Pass holders are the problem here, but rather all the other flavors of passes offered.

Perhaps institute reservations for the lower-tier pass products? Or a pass system where days are valued based on demand?

For example, I have an Edge Card for W/B. I’d personally have no problem making a reservation as long as capacity exists for the upcoming visit.

Tee times (skiing) FTW would help lift line shitshows but not be a fix for all the powder hounds untracked addiction.

 

[takeahike46er]

From what I’ve observed locally at W/B, holiday periods aren’t the issue. It’s those random, big powder weekends (or when there’s snow in the metro area) when things really get ugly. Finding a way to limit a subset of the ticket/pass holders on these days could address the perception that their mountains are universally oversold, even if the reality is that the majority of days are within their comfortable carrying capacity.

 

[not2brite]

I think if you were required to declare a home mountain and then got limited days at other mountains it could go a long way to preventing crowds.

This sounds like a very reasonable idea.
Another way to go is keep the midweek/restricted passes significantly cheaper than full and unrestricted access. Even at $1,000 these things are all a very good deal considering the access they get you.

 

[Harvey]

Agree, it’s not an easy problem to solve, and to be clear—I don’t think the full Epic Pass holders are the problem here, but rather all the other flavors of passes offered.

Perhaps institute reservations for the lower-tier pass products? Or a pass system where days are valued based on demand?

Full epic is not the problem and other epic passholders are... splain Ricky.

I'm spending my money on passes where I'm always welcome, and the mountain isn't crowded.

 

[tirolski]

If it wasn’t for Fail running and ruining their mountains...,
the senior (65+) Northeast M-F weekday pass could be a deal.
That’s a BIG IF though...

For $291 there's midweek “access” to possibly less liftline shitshows. But ya gotta go to know.

https://www.epicpass.com/Passes/Northeast-Midweek-Pass

 

[takeahike46er]

Full epic is not the problem and other epic passholders are... splain Ricky.

Poor choice of words on my part. None of the passholders are the problem. The extremely high demand on these select days is the problem, and my observation is that it's not just the hardcore accounting for the traffic spikes on these dates.

With Vail resorts selling more and more tickets in advance— including an assortment of 2 day, 4 day, or 5 day passes—in the past, these visitors might have chosen to do other activities instead of skiing, but now feel obligated to burn their ski days before they go to waste. It's only natural that they are picking the "best" days, only to show up to a gong show. Since this demographic represents the majority of skiers, my logic is try and cap or incentivize this group to choose alternative days.

 

[riverc0il]

They have the numbers. They know how many pass holders vs. day trippers show up on a powder day.

Pass holders shouldn't be limited on powder days. That makes no sense. If you paid for a pass, you should get to use your pass on any applicable days. Blackout some passes for peak periods. But a pass holder should not be turned away just because there is good snow.

Day tripper tickets should be limited. If there is a big storm, each resort knows what percentage of guests (on average) will be pass holders. They know how many guests (on average) they should get. They know how many vacation packages have been booked. They have all of the data for current season resorts on the pass.

Each resort should have a curve rating each day's weather against a benchmark and limiting day tickets. If there is a storm within three days with high certainty, begin putting in place limits. Ease limits if the forecast does not pan out, tighten limits if the forecast becomes more certain or expected snowfall increases.

Also, are we sure this is a demand issue and not a logistics/staffing issue (in most cases)? It seems like many resorts had issues not just due to high skier visits, but also due to lifts not running, limited terrain, not enough staff, etc. Many resorts are capacity limited by parking (though, numbers in each car and numbers in each room can vary).

 

[MarzNC]

Also, are we sure this is a demand issue and not a logistics/staffing issue (in most cases)? It seems like many resorts had issues not just due to high skier visits, but also due to lifts not running, limited terrain, not enough staff, etc. Many resorts are capacity limited by parking (though, numbers in each car and numbers in each room can vary).

Part of the problem now is that if one VR resort has issues that result in a picture of a long lift line that goes viral, many people think that's how every VR resort looks every weekend or holiday. Some of these people don't even ski. They just read news headlines or see Twitter/IG/FB posts.

The first season Ikon existed, there were plenty of locals at places like JH, Big Sky, or Alta/Snowbird that blamed Ikon holders for the long lines. The data was clear that 1-location season pass holders had been on the slopes a lot more that usual because that was a banner year for powder storms. Of course, the locals who were most vocal often didn't believe the statements from management.

Stevens Pass is a special case. Given that Crystal (bought by Alterra) is in the same market with similar issues, harder to tell what are VR management issues and what is growing pains for the region.

However, there may be more general operational and management issues in New England and the midwest. Lack of experience in the region by GMs who are coming from the Rockies seems like asking for trouble. I'll be watching to see how the transition goes for the three new locations in western PA. People in DC/NoVA haven't been happy with VR making signification operational changes for the three former Snowtime/Peak hills.

 

[MarzNC]

With Vail resorts selling more and more tickets in advance— including an assortment of 2 day, 4 day, or 5 day passes—in the past, these visitors might have chosen to do other activities instead of skiing, but now feel obligated to burn their ski days before they go to waste. It's only natural that they are picking the "best" days, only to show up to a gong show. Since this demographic represents the majority of skiers, my logic is try and cap or incentivize this group to choose alternative days.

Would be interesting to know what percentage of people buying an Epic Day Pass drive to use their days. It's certainly how VR is pulling in new customers since the entry price is relatively low.

Requiring people to make a reservation a few days in advance for Epic Day Passes would provide more control. Then there would be three categories: 1) pass holders including Epic, 2) Epic Day folks, 3) people buying a day ticket. The pandemic season proved that lift access reservations can work to limit capacity.