The New Normal

[MC2]

I am fully satisfied. I don’t need to be convinced….

Consider the possibility that the “vilification” is working on some people and different people can be convinced in different ways.

Part of “having a conversation” is not taking offense on other people’s behalf.

If the stories about healthy people dying convince more people to get vaccinated, great. If the stories full of data & facts convince more people to get vaccinated, great. If people think that COVID is an alien conspiracy to depopulate the planet and the only way to prevent an “Independence Day”-style takeover is to get the vaccine, fucking who cares? As long as people get vaccinated, I’m for it.

 

[tirolski]

If having recovered from it doesn’t provide immunity somebody should be out front explaining why and citing the research. Nobody is trying to address peoples concerns. They’re just vilifying the other side. That just causes people to dig in. We always hear “we need to have a conversation” about whatever the topic of the day might be but nobody ever has a conversation about anything. That would require listening to people that disagree with you, which seems to be a dead art.

The big tech social media folks ban folks who disagree with their narrative so the art of discussing is lost.
The Haudenosaunee didn’t have writing but they had oratory and had discussions until opposing folks agreed what’s best for 7 generations down the road.

 

[MarzNC]

There have been a few deaths related to the vaccine. It’s “New”
is an impediment to a lot of people.

Yep, the people who are scared by a headline with the words "death" or "hospitalized" together with "vaccinated" aren't likely to have any idea what the statistics that come out of a clinical trial really mean. Or what "emergency approval" by FDA means in comparison to "full approval."

Given my academic and professional background working in a Biostatistics Dept. of a company that did clinical trials, it was easy to understand that enrolling 40,000 people in a Phase 3 trial in just a few months in 2020 was a major reason that there could be sufficient efficacy results by fall. Also true that severe adverse events directly related to a vaccine are unlikely to happen after a few months. Usually 2-8 weeks is enough to get a sense that a new vaccine is "safe" in the sense of "safe and effective". A decision to approve a vaccine or drug by a regulatory agency doesn't mean it's perfect, but that it's better than no medication and worth the risk of the known side effects.

I wonder how many people who are vaccine hesitant have a regular doctor who they trust. Even with good health insurance, it took me several years to find a family practice doctor who I felt completely comfortable with. And then she moved on after about 15 years. The search for a new PCP took several years after that.

 

[MC2]

.
The Haudenosaunee didn’t have writing but they had oratory and had discussions until opposing folks agreed what’s best for 7 generations down the road.

You think that they had discussions until *all* the “opposing folks” agreed?

Or do you think they were outvoted by a majority of the tribe?

Have you ever tried to get 100% agreement on anything in a group of people?

70% of people have at least 1 shot. It’s actually pretty impressive. Hard to get 70% of people to do anything:

 

[MarzNC]

Once there was enough vaccine supply, Canadians really stepped up for vaccinations. Was only 20% in mid-June. Percentages are for total population. About 10% higher for 12+. I think the target for re-opening the border was 75%, but it wasn't a hard number.

 

[CNY Skier]

To me the clearest data are the hospitalization numbers (%) on vaccinated vs unvaccinated. The information I've seen seems pretty convincing. But that data doesn't seem to be convincing anyone who wasn't already convinced.

I've had covid and it was brutal. I guess that means I've got co-morbidities. Still not willing to say oh well, I'm not healthy enough to deserve to live.

Everything is a gamble. Driving a car. Skiing. Whatever. If I get long term side affects, I'll might never know if they are from covid or the vax. But if it is from the vax, I won't beat myself up about it. I made the call and I'll live (hopefully!) with it. We've got a three pack a day smoker in our company who doesn't want to come back to the office because she is concerned about the health risk. We all make our own judgements.

IMO it's unfortunate that people view this vaccine differently than the 15 shots they had to get to go to kindergarten.

Well, it IS different than the shots we had in kindergarten. A traditional vaccine uses a weakened or dead virus to compel the human immune system into action. These new vaccines (all of them) do not. Why? This issue is what makes most of us "vaccine hesitant" uneasy. Even the more traditional J&J vax uses the Adenovirus (not Covid-19) as it's core mechanism. If Covid-19 is truly a virus than why not use it (in weakened form) as a basis for a vaccine? Honestly, if someone could provide a coherent explanation of this than most of us would be at the vax clinic tomorrow, me included. I have had all of my traditional vaccines and boosters and cannot by any means be labeled "anti-vax".

There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.

Something about this whole thing just seems a bit off. It used to be that if you got a disease and survived then you would obtain immunity for a decent length of time. Now "the experts" are saying no, that doesn't apply anymore. So they expect us to believe that thousands of years of human evolution and immunology is no longer valid? Occam's razor.

 

[XTski]

Well, it IS different than the shots we had in kindergarten. A traditional vaccine uses a weakened or dead virus to compel the human immune system into action. These new vaccines (all of them) do not. Why? This issue is what makes most of us "vaccine hesitant" uneasy. Even the more traditional J&J vax uses the Adenovirus (not Covid-19) as it's core mechanism. If Covid-19 is truly a virus than why not use it (in weakened form) as a basis for a vaccine? Honestly, if someone could provide a coherent explanation of this than most of us would be at the vax clinic tomorrow, me included. I have had all of my traditional vaccines and boosters and cannot by any means be labeled "anti-vax".

There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.

Something about this whole thing just seems a bit off. It used to be that if you got a disease and survived then you would obtain immunity for a decent length of time. Now "the experts" are saying no, that doesn't apply anymore. So they expect us to believe that thousands of years of human evolution and immunology is no longer valid? Occam's razor.

this is why so many Americans are skeptical, not as many sheep here like in communist countries, hopefully all works out but things are looking sketchy

 

[Tjf1967]

Well, it IS different than the shots we had in kindergarten. A traditional vaccine uses a weakened or dead virus to compel the human immune system into action. These new vaccines (all of them) do not. Why? This issue is what makes most of us "vaccine hesitant" uneasy. Even the more traditional J&J vax uses the Adenovirus (not Covid-19) as it's core mechanism. If Covid-19 is truly a virus than why not use it (in weakened form) as a basis for a vaccine? Honestly, if someone could provide a coherent explanation of this than most of us would be at the vax clinic tomorrow, me included. I have had all of my traditional vaccines and boosters and cannot by any means be labeled "anti-vax".

There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.

Something about this whole thing just seems a bit off. It used to be that if you got a disease and survived then you would obtain immunity for a decent length of time. Now "the experts" are saying no, that doesn't apply anymore. So they expect us to believe that thousands of years of human evolution and immunology is no longer valid? Occam's razor.

You are entitled to your opinion. You have the same access to info we do. That said if that is your choice. You obviously believe there is a virus. You also know how catchy it is. Is it safe to assume you keep your distance? That is the rub. It's not happening

 

[Harvey]

As I said, I could be wrong. And if I am I'll forgive myself for it. Like I said, covid hit me hard so the vaccine seems like a risk worth taking to me. I hope CNY is right and having covid once has me good to go.

I am skeptical of X's point that this is the most common reason that people aren't getting the vaccine. I'll admit that's a gut feeling, not based on research or data.

I agree with what I think TJ is saying. If you don't want to get vaccinated, wear a mask and avoid close contact. I find the hardest part of this is others who don't seem to take it seriously and unexpectedly get close to me. Work is the hard part. Once retired and living in the mountains I think it would be a lot easier to keep my distance.

 

[MC2]

There is nothing political about this issue for me - I'm a libertarian nutty-crunchy environmentalist with a soft spot for the down and trodden (that includes animals and insects). I'm also a health nut and vegetarian and have been well served by my own immune system for 58 years..haven't seen a doctor in over 7 years and have no intent on seeing one anytime soon. I am also highly suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and do not take any meds except for the occasional ibuprofen pill to dull the pain of this injury or that.

There’s a weird thing that people do where they say “It’s not political, I just don’t trust [government/industry/any large system organized by people that invariably contain some levels of politics].”

Anyway, all we can do is offer facts

from: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html