Stuart talks to Alterra CEO (IKON)

[Andy_ROC]

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Reading Chris Diamond's second book, Ski Inc 2000, seemed pretty clear that he thought the creation of Alterra and Ikon was a major event in the history of the ski industry in N. America. Coupled with the purchase of Peak Resorts by Vail Resorts. That acquisition happened about the time he thought he was done writing. They had to scramble to make enough updates so that the book wasn't obsolete the day it started selling a few months later.

So maybe it's appropriate to say the Epic pass saved Vail?

But I don't see mega passes saving the industry especially when most mountains are not part of one.

 

[MarzNC]

So maybe it's appropriate to say the Epic pass saved Vail?

But I don't see mega passes saving the industry especially when most mountains are not part of one.

Although most resorts aren't part of a mega-pass, the percentage of people who ski/board and use one of the mega-passes is a pretty large number as I remember. Don't remember seeing the dollar percentage break down between mega-pass resorts and the rest of the N. American ski industry.

There is no question that the Epic pass saved VR after 2008. It also shifted the thinking at the competition on a national level once it was obvious that Epic passes made sense to enough people who take ski vacations and spend money on more than just lift tickets. The Mountain Collective Pass (MCP) was a delayed reaction to the success of Epic. The MCP started in 2012-13 with just four very well known independent resorts. Intrawest with a multi-resort pass that morphed into the MAX Pass not that long afterwards. By the Boyne Resorts and Powdr understood the value of being part of a multi-resort pass of some sort.

Ikon is essentially Alterra, Boyne, Powdr, plus a few iconic resorts such as Alta, JH, and Taos.

The surprise wasn't that other multi-resort passes came up after Epic. The surprise was the creation of Alterra in a very short period of time. It was very hard to keep up with the acquisition announcements that first year when Alterra didn't even have a name yet.

 

[Milo Maltbie]

But I don't see mega passes saving the industry especially when most mountains are not part of one.

Almost every North American destination resort is either Epic or Ikon, and so are the largest regional resorts.

That doesn't mean they are not price fixing and using monopoly market power. What "saved the industry" is forcing skiers to pre-pay for lift access and over selling passes. They wouldn't be able to do that without monopoly power. In the process they have priced beginners out of the market, which makes me think they are planning for continually worse weather for the foreseeable future.

mm

 

[raisingarizona]

Almost every North American destination resort is either Epic or Ikon, and so are the largest regional resorts.

That doesn't mean they are not price fixing and using monopoly market power. What "saved the industry" is forcing skiers to pre-pay for lift access and over selling passes. They wouldn't be able to do that without monopoly power. In the process they have priced beginners out of the market, which makes me think they are planning for continually worse weather for the foreseeable future.

mm

Yup, it’s the big “get it while it lasts” move.

 

[tirolski]

Yup, it’s the big “get it while it lasts” move.

There’s skiing at Mammoth till August 6th.
It ain’t over till it’s over.
What amazes me is the big dogs running these mega pass companies don’t talk about snow.

 

[MarzNC]

What amazes me is the big dogs running these mega pass companies don’t talk about snow.

Perhaps because in the long run the only way to survive as a leisure business is to become a year round destination, not a winter only ski resort.

The big advantage my home hill, Massanutten, has is that it's a 4-season resort that's been around for 50+ years. The ski hill is under 100 acres. The total acreage is on the order of 6000 acres of private land. Massanutten is a large timeshare resort that is fully booked during the summer season, and the fall color weeks. Lift-served mountain biking was added to the slopes in the last 10-15 years. The indoor/outdoor waterpark was built in 2003-2004. There are two 18-hole golf courses, with one in the valley open year round and a mountain course open in the "green season." Millions have been spent on upgrading lifts, snowmaking, and even adding trails in the 5-10 years. Fair to say that the money for such large projects comes more from other revenue sources than from snowsports.

The summer revenue activities on Forest Service land in the Rockies are relatively new. The changes to the law and Forest Service rules didn't go into effect until about 2014. Before that, hiking for free was about all that could be offered to people staying in slopeside resort lodging at a destination resort.

 

[MarzNC]

Meanwhile, the family that owns Jackson Hole has found a way to sell to locals in order to keep JHMR independent. Stuart is on vacation but decided the news was too important to wait until he gets home.

August 3, 2023

Kemmerer Family Sells Jackson Hole to Small Group of Locals

The ultimate indie draws a line against consolidation.

www.stormskiing.com

 

[Benny Profane]

Maybe Vail and Alterra weren't interested. Saturation point.

 

[Peter Minde]

I give Stuart credit for talking like a real life human with a budget and skiing habit, when he itemized specifically the price rises in the Ikon pass, asking, basically, hey, how far is this going to go, and the answer to that was a ridiculous word salad that meant nothing, and I think our CEO felt a bit offended that his vision was questioned.

I finally broke down and listened to the remainder of the podcast. Chapeau to Stuart for asking about price increases. Agree with your take on word salad tho.

 

[Harvey]

IMO the jury is out on the whole "saving the industry" thing.

Everyone focuses on skiers visits. Be cool to see a statistic of the numbers of new to the sport skiers by season.