Stuart talks to Alterra CEO (IKON)

[Brownski]

You mean the super cheap route and joined patrol.

might as well if I’m gonna be there every weekend anyway I figure

 

[snoloco]

I wish I could find all my posts on various forums when Max Pass/Epic/Ikon were starting up. When everyone was so happy that they could buy a pass with 30 resorts I was warning that it was just price fixing/monopoly market power and that it wasn't going to go well for skiers forever.

mm

Mega passes saved an industry that was struggling to find its footing after the great recession. See, everyone was trying to develop real estate, and when that crashed, they lost not only a large revenue stream, but the ability to pursue any long term plans that they had. Most resorts went through the motions and scraped by, as they had nothing to strive for anymore. It was an uninspiring time to be in the industry, whether working in it, or as a customer.

Vail Resorts emerged from the dark ages with the Epic Pass, introduced in 2008. It was a resounding success. In tough economic times, those on a budget could still afford a season pass. People flocked to their resorts. In 2010, they were the first large company to resume investment in lifts. Over the next several years, they replaced more than a dozen aging lifts with new, higher capacity ones, to accommodate the crowds their Epic Pass was bringing in. In 2013, they even opened a large expansion at Breckenridge, something no one else was doing at the time.

Mega passes were initially very slow to spread to the northeast. It started happening with the Max Pass in 2015-2016, which was replaced by Ikon for 2018-2019, and the rest is history. They were initially very well received. Those who benefitted most were those who were already purchasing season passes. They enjoyed more access for a better price. What's not to like about that? At the time, the tradeoff was having to potentially deal with bigger crowds, but it wasn't seen as a problem back then because skier visits had been very weak in the Northeast for more than a decade.

Once resorts started to become overcrowded, actions such as paid parking were taken to reduce overcrowding. These actions hit the heaviest users the hardest, who were also those who initially benefitted the most from mega passes. So it's understandable that those people are pissed that the resorts are trying to run them out for people who ski less than 10 days a year.

 

[Benny Profane]

A fraction of what he'll earn by arranging a sellout of Ikon to Vail

Oh, but, he'll get his. I worked for a big company that merged with another big company, which was really the second company buying ours, but, we wont get into the details. Anyway, the CEO on our side and board members and some other guys walked away from that deal with life changing sums, and I thought, hey, what did they do for all that? It's sort of back to that unprintable Winston Wolf/Pulp Fiction quote, because, in the end, they let it happen. Just got rewarded for letting it all go smoothly.

 

[Benny Profane]

Stratton's snow conditions were absolutely horrendous last year and they failed to open multiple major trails. It had nothing to do with bad weather, as their competitors performed a lot better. It felt like they were trying to cut costs, rather than put their best product on the mountain.

Sugarbush struggled with extensive lift down time. The North Ridge Express didn't open until mid January for the season due to maintenance issues, and the Green Mountain Express was down for two weeks in February. Lots of down time on other lifts too, that would remain closed for some or all of the day. While all lifts sometimes break down, the amount of down time they had was unacceptable.

If those two aren't poor management, then I don't know what is.

It had a ton to do with bad weather, and labor issues. And labor issues are housing issues. They can't find enough people to work these big hills unless they bring in migrants, like the farm industry. This is what happens when you close the borders and all the white kids stay in the cellar playing wargames and expecting never having to actually work.

 

[snoloco]

I assure you it had nothing to do with weather, as I'm comparing their performance, or lack thereof, to other northeast resorts in the same season. Stratton was outperformed by resorts that were known to have weaker snowmaking systems than they do. They have more GPM per acre than Killington, yet always had shitty conditions when I was there, even on days when you'd expect it to at least be decent. Those weekends, I often went to Killington the next day, and found far better conditions. Multiple times when it was cold enough, they didn't make any snow, or would work on like one trail on the entire mountain. When they did make snow, it would be slop that became boilerplate after the first groom. Their grooming is also lackluster. While most resorts have some trails that get groomed every night, and others that are usually left ungroomed, Stratton will groom a lot of trails every other night. This means that half of those trails are a terrifying sheet of ice right from first chair.

Sugarbush, like Tremblant, has a very old detachable fleet. Unlike Tremblant, their lifts have not been particularly well maintained. They are replacing North Ridge next year, but not increasing capacity. That lift dates back to 1990 and is on its last legs. Their other 4 detachables were built in 1995, 1995, 1995, and 2002. The The 2002 build is the Green Mountain Express, which has been nothing short of a dog. It had to run on diesel for the entire 2019-2020 season because of electrical problems. For the 2020-2021 season, they had it back on electric power, but it was running painfully slow. Then in 2022-2023 it was down for 2 weeks in February. I haven't skied there since 2020-2021 due to all of their lift issues. It's a long drive for me, and I'm not going to do it if there's a good chance that a major lift goes down. Seemingly every day I checked the snow report or webcams, something broke down, and not just little hickups either. I mean closed for several hours if not the whole day. That's without even mentioning Slide Brook, which didn't open at all for the entire 2021-2022 season. While I really like the mountain, I don't see myself returning until they get their act together.

"Labor issues" seems to be the go-to excuse for lame CEO's. There's 3 ways to work around this. One is pay people more, two is invest in employee housing, and three is upgrade parts of the operation to be less labor intensive. Most resorts figured this out. If Alterrable didn't, then that's all on them.

I had high hopes for Alterra when they were first formed. They got off to a strong start by completing long postponed lift projects. It seemed like they had more in the pipeline and were committed to putting their best product on the mountain. Since the pandemic, I've just been so disappointed. I have an Ikon Pass which I get as part of my Killington pass, I will probably just use it for my western trip and partner resorts.

 

[Andy_ROC]

Mega passes saved an industry that was struggling to find its footing after the great recession. See, everyone was trying to develop real estate, and when that crashed, they lost not only a large revenue stream, but the ability to pursue any long term plans that they had. Most resorts went through the motions and scraped by, as they had nothing to strive for anymore. It was an uninspiring time to be in the industry, whether working in it, or as a customer.

Vail Resorts emerged from the dark ages with the Epic Pass, introduced in 2008. It was a resounding success. In tough economic times, those on a budget could still afford a season pass. People flocked to their resorts. In 2010, they were the first large company to resume investment in lifts. Over the next several years, they replaced more than a dozen aging lifts with new, higher capacity ones, to accommodate the crowds their Epic Pass was bringing in. In 2013, they even opened a large expansion at Breckenridge, something no one else was doing at the time.

Mega passes were initially very slow to spread to the northeast. It started happening with the Max Pass in 2015-2016, which was replaced by Ikon for 2018-2019, and the rest is history. They were initially very well received. Those who benefitted most were those who were already purchasing season passes. They enjoyed more access for a better price. What's not to like about that? At the time, the tradeoff was having to potentially deal with bigger crowds, but it wasn't seen as a problem back then because skier visits had been very weak in the Northeast for more than a decade.

Once resorts started to become overcrowded, actions such as paid parking were taken to reduce overcrowding. These actions hit the heaviest users the hardest, who were also those who initially benefitted the most from mega passes. So it's understandable that those people are pissed that the resorts are trying to run them out for people who ski less than 10 days a year.

I think saying "Mega passes saved an industry..." is a bit of hyperbole.

 

[MarzNC]

I had high hopes for Alterra when they were first formed. They got off to a strong start by completing long postponed lift projects. It seemed like they had more in the pipeline and were committed to putting their best product on the mountain. Since the pandemic, I've just been so disappointed. I have an Ikon Pass which I get as part of my Killington pass, I will probably just use it for my western trip and partner resorts.

All depends on which Alterra resort someone cares about more.

The capital intensive projects at Snowshoe in WV are starting to make a significant difference. Of course, took a while to get to the point of starting construction on new lift(s) and base building(s). I assume the folks who think of Steamboat as their favorite resort for trips out west are happy with what's been happening there in the last few years. Will take another few years before all the new construction already in the pipeline is completed.

 

[MarzNC]

I think saying "Mega passes saved an industry..." is a bit of hyperbole.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Reading Chris Diamond's second book, Ski Inc 2000, seemed pretty clear that he thought the creation of Alterra and Ikon was a major event in the history of the ski industry in N. America. Coupled with the purchase of Peak Resorts by Vail Resorts. That acquisition happened about the time he thought he was done writing. They had to scramble to make enough updates so that the book wasn't obsolete the day it started selling a few months later.

 

[snoloco]

The Epic Pass was why Vail Resorts utterly dominated the industry in the 2010s. They were the first to move away from real estate which collapsed ASC and nearly collapsed Intrawest.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

When they did make snow, it would be slop that became boilerplate after the first groom. Their grooming is also lackluster.

I'm trying to figure out which is worse, boilerplate or boilerplate with lackluster grooming. Maybe it's the latter since it at least has the word "grooming" in it.