ORDA Snowmaking Improvements

[TheGreatAbyss]

There are places on airBnB, but there aren't a lot of them, and very few in North Creek proper. Most of them are a 15+ minute drive. Yes there are cheap ones but they are often pretty spartan. There is only one "nice" hotel option and it's expensive for what it is IMHO.

But I do agree with you that the 6 day a year skier doesn't even know about Gore's existence. Maybe the've heard of Whiteface and Lake Placid.

 

[snoloco]

ORDA does not advertize Gore outside of the Capital Region. Only Whiteface and Belleayre are advertized in the NYC metro area.

 

[x10003q]

Just to be clear - the ski area section of the NYS Constitution will never be changed to allow outside leasing or purchase of the 3 NYS owned ski areas. There is really no point in discussing what companies might be interested in Gore beyond the obvious Vail/Alterra. I will say the line would be out the door for Gore.

My focus on skier visits has to do with measuring the success of the NYS $$$ spending since 1999 at Gore. It is very difficult to compare the finances of the 3 NYS ski areas to for profit ski areas due to different and opaque accounting rules. The number of visits is the best indicator of how ORDA is doing managing Gore. This is not about the management team at Gore as they are at the mercy of the ORDA board.

I do not think and have never said that Gore's goals should be like Mt Snow/Stratton/Okemo hitting 600k visits/season. Over the last 20 years, ORDA should have managed to gradually increase visits by 75k-100k/year to the Sugarbush level mentioned in the 2005 economic study (300k). This increase would have helped Gore itself and North Creek and the surrounding areas financially. If skier visits were in this range, maybe Gore could have justified improving its snowmaking horsepower so it could open Burnt Ridge earlier than mid-Jan every year. This increase over a 20 year period would have also generated an increase in beds for overnight stays and the food /beverage/entertainment to support the increase. Ultimately it would have increased business/job options in the area, an important component of the first ORDA Mandate.

Some of the ORDA Board members who represent Lake Placid have a visible conflict of interest as their own property ownership in Lake Placid might be affected by a stronger Gore with more overnight visits. The skiing at Gore is more favorable to the bulk of skiers vs Whiteface and Gore is much closer to major US metro areas vs WF. In fact, getting to Gore might be easier for NY metro area skiers vs getting to SVT. By ORDA keeping Gore under the radar, Gore continues to float along at around 210k visits year after year and never climbs beyond a semi-unknown, underutilized day area that will never 'steal' visitors from Lake Placid.

So far, nobody has had to answer to NYS for this failure and waste of taxpayer money. I suspect nobody ever will.

 

[x10003q]

Hahaha.

I "blame" the green mountain spine and orographic snow!

 

[Harvey]

Gore and SVT have similar snow totals over the last 10 years with SVT having a slight edge.

I was referring to NY vs VT and why VT has so much more skiing. Certainly vert is a factor too. In VT the snow falls on the big mountains. In NY not as much.

To your point:

Link or image? Gore's average is 120. North Creek around 90 I think.

That said, there is no doubt the spine's impact is greatest in NoVT. Some dispute that SoVT is even on the spine. (I don't).

Vermont Annual Snowfall

More snowfall, across the state, than any other.

nyskiblog.com

 

[SayvilleSteve]

o far, nobody has had to answer to NYS for this failure and waste of taxpayer money. I suspect nobody ever will

What is this bugaboo you have over all of this 'wasteful spending'? The NYS 2023 budget is $105 billion and ORDA's budget is $105 million. Now look at your tax return and note how much of the total tax you pay is NY State specific tax and then multiply that by 0.1%. I for one am quite happy that $13.02 of my taxes went to ORDA.

Briefing Book | FY 2023 Executive Budget

FY 2023 (2022-23) Executive Budget Briefing Book

www.budget.ny.gov

 

[TheGreatAbyss]

What is this bugaboo you have over all of this 'wasteful spending'?

He mentioned a few pages back that he owns property in the area. I understand his point of view of wanting to maximize his investment.

As a skier and non property owner I mostly like Gore the way it is.

 

[DomB]

What is this bugaboo you have over all of this 'wasteful spending'? The NYS 2023 budget is $105 billion and ORDA's budget is $105 million. Now look at your tax return and note how much of the total tax you pay is NY State specific tax and then multiply that by 0.1%. I for one am quite happy that $13.02 of my taxes went to ORDA.

Briefing Book | FY 2023 Executive Budget

FY 2023 (2022-23) Executive Budget Briefing Book

www.budget.ny.gov

Put another way, it is wasteful, but only as a super small fraction of the waste in the budget.

As i have said many times before, given jobs, fun, opportunity, I don't mind may tax money going there. Now somehow we have to get better SKi3 rates for New Yorkers (just kidding I know this blog is like 70% Jersey folks including our fearless leader).

 

[TheGreatAbyss]

If that included New York State tax payers I can get behind it.

For a country that was founded on the principle of "No Taxation Without Representation", nothing infuriates me more than having to pay taxes to a state that I don't even get to vote in.

 

[SayvilleSteve]

To be fair, you are paying tax to every jurisdiction that you spend money in, assuming it has sales tax (or VAT). While ORDA's budget represents only 0.1% of the NY budget, not all of that is even 'wasteful.' We are arguing over tiny fractions of a %.

I too would love to maximize every investment that I make, but unfortunately that's not how it works. Every investment is a calculated risk and it is very rare that you have control over those risks. Real estate speculation within the borders of a state park seems like a pretty risky investment to me and I spent most of my career investing in Emerging Markets.