ICE v Electric: Cost and Emissions

[TheGreatAbyss]

For a variety of reasons – inflation, higher interest costs, and the need to replace aging equipment, among others – utilities are seeking rate increases much larger than anything in recent memory

Who said anything about solar?

 

[DomB]

Agree. It seems as though it takes money to save money?

I know I don't have the cash to put in solar.

Cash wise there are state incentives so that if you don’t get a battery you effectively will be 0 out of pocket.

With financing (for me with a lot of sun exposure) there is a small positive difference on monthly cash flow because the subsidized loan payment is less than my electric was. So there are options.

 

[Milo Maltbie]

I think and unintended consequence of solar is that rates will go up for non solar ppl.

FIFY
That's already built into the utility tariffs. Rates are set based on forecast revenue, and when actual results fall short, even for one month, the short amount is just added to next month's bills. It doesn't matter if the revenue shortfall is caused by net metering, bad weather or a recession, the revenue is still guaranteed. You don't notice because it's all baked into the rates and the monthly adjustments are typically small.

OTOH maybe solar drives rates down by replacing costly fossil generation. Or maybe it drives rates up by requiring costly transmission upgrades. Maybe it destabilizes the whole system. It's complicated.

mm

 

[Milo Maltbie]

For a variety of reasons – inflation, higher interest costs, and the need to replace aging equipment, among others – utilities are seeking rate increases much larger than anything in recent memory

Increased interest rates and finance cost generally drive the biggest increases. If inflation goes from 2% to 6%, interest rates may go from 5 to 9%. That's a 40% increase, and it applies to their total investment. Utility rates are typically pretty stable when inflation and interest rates are low, but they increase much more than inflation when interest rates increase.

mm

 

[x10003q]

National Grid seeks whopping double-digit rate hikes for electricity and gas

The proposed increase far exceeds the utility's previous requests.

www.syracuse.com

The USA is the largest producer of natural gas and the largest exporter of natural gas. National Grift wants a 20% increase for delivering natural gas and 15% for electricity (35% from natural gas). Criminal.

The current US setup for power generation and distribution with guaranteed returns for these power companies as at odds with the uneven electrical generation by solar and wind. There are no clear paths to solve this problem.

 

[Milo Maltbie]

The USA is the largest producer of natural gas and the largest exporter of natural gas. National Grift wants a 20% increase for delivering natural gas and 15% for electricity (35% from natural gas). Criminal.

Natural gas exports are a relatively new thing. Oil prices are set in a world market, but in the past, gas prices were set in a US only market. That meant gas was often cheaper than oil, but never more expensive. With more gas exprts, gas prices will be set in the world market as oil, and both will cost more or less the same.

The current US setup for power generation and distribution with
guaranteed returns for these power companies as at odds with the uneven electrical generation by solar and wind. There are no clear paths to solve this problem.

The transmission system was never designed to accept large amounts of intermittent renewable power. Upgrading the system to accept more solar will require large investments, and the guaranteed revenue model is the best way forward.

mm

 

[DomB]

Woah- Stellantus said they are bringing a 25k Jeep to the US. This could be quite interesting. So glad makers are finally going to entry price points.

 

[DomB]

FIFY
That's already built into the utility tariffs. Rates are set based on forecast revenue, and when actual results fall short, even for one month, the short amount is just added to next month's bills. It doesn't matter if the revenue shortfall is caused by net metering, bad weather or a recession, the revenue is still guaranteed. You don't notice because it's all baked into the rates and the monthly adjustments are typically small.

OTOH maybe solar drives rates down by replacing costly fossil generation. Or maybe it drives rates up by requiring costly transmission upgrades. Maybe it destabilizes the whole system. It's complicated.

mm

Yeah long term I believe solar will drive down rates.

Also it may even retard rate increases because they are basically purchasing for free and reselling of course they need the infrastructure upgrades you refer to.

 

[Milo Maltbie]

Also it may even retard rate increases because they are basically purchasing for free and reselling of course they need the infrastructure upgrades you refer to.

Net metering costs utilities the full retail price when they would otherwise pay the wholesale price. Retail may d be ~25 cents ( I never look at my own bills) when the wholesale price is often less than 8 cents. How does that "retard rate increases"?

mm

 

[TheGreatAbyss]

That 8 cents is an average.

Solar on your roof is most productive during peak demand when the grid fires up the less cost effective supply - Nat Gas turbines, Oil etc. This is why Demand Response is so important on the usage side. I told my wife to stop using the slow cooker during the middle of the day when the AC is blasting