ICE v Electric: Cost and Emissions

[x10003q]

Here is an interesting article suggesting that hybrids might be better for the environment at the moment rather than full electric vehicles. The hybrids need less of the minerals that are needed for batteries while still offering battery power for the bulk of the miles driven.

"Right now, though, there’s a good argument to be made that the government, and automakers, are leaning too hard into all-electric and neglecting the virtues of hybrid technology. When I first heard this counterintuitive argument from Toyota, I dismissed it as heel-dragging by a company that lags in electrics, but I’ve come around to the idea that hybrids — at least for now — do have a lot of advantages over all-electric vehicles.

Imagine some wheelbarrows filled with rocks. The rocks contain lithium, cobalt, manganese, nickel, graphite and other materials for lithium-ion batteries. By Toyota’s calculation, the amount of rocks needed for one long-range electric vehicle would be enough for either six plug-in hybrids or 90 of the type of hybrid that can’t be plugged in for a recharge. (Namely, the type whose batteries are recharged from the engine or from braking."

“The overall carbon reduction of those 90 hybrids over their lifetimes is 37 times as much as a single battery electric vehicle,” Toyota argues. That’s a stunning statistic if true."

“Toyota’s claim is accurate. We’ve crunched the numbers on this,” Ashley Nunes told me. He is a senior research associate at Harvard Law School and the director for federal policy, climate and energy at the Breakthrough Institute, a think tank. He testified on the topic in April before the House Subcommittee on Environment, Manufacturing and Critical Materials."

Opinion | A Climate Hawk’s Issues With Electric Vehicles (Published 2023)

Toyota is notoriously skeptical of a rapid transition to all-electric E.V.s. It may have a point.

www.nytimes.com

 

[trackbiker]

While people like skiers who generally drive long distances are interested in long electric range, most trips from home are seven miles or less. Running to the grocery store, drug store, school, work, etc. With a range of 30 miles electric, most people would seldom have a plug in hybrid kick over to gas. A plug in hybrid seems like a better solution for most people over an all electric vehicle with limited charging options available on trips and not having to worry about range anxiety. I believe Marz said that other than when she is on a long trip she never runs on gas in her plug in hybrid.
I still think hydrogen fuel cells will eventually take over the market from plug in electric vehicles due to shorter refueling time and less weight.

 

[Harvey]

I think it makes sense, as I've said so many times in this thread.

If batteries improve (power/weight ratio) Every pluggin hybrid could have 80 miles of range and we'd use a hell of a lot less fossil. All hybrids put less load on the grid too.

Long term my money is on hydrogen too.

 

[tirolski]

This thread has 254 pages.
Gore Mountain Conditions only has 242 pages.
It must be summertime.
I only buy gas about twice a month but need to fill the mowers' jug again. The grass is growing like weeds.

 

[Campgottagopee]

Here is an interesting article suggesting that hybrids might be better for the environment at the moment rather than full electric vehicles. The hybrids need less of the minerals that are needed for batteries while still offering battery power for the bulk of the miles driven.

"Right now, though, there’s a good argument to be made that the government, and automakers, are leaning too hard into all-electric and neglecting the virtues of hybrid technology. When I first heard this counterintuitive argument from Toyota, I dismissed it as heel-dragging by a company that lags in electrics, but I’ve come around to the idea that hybrids — at least for now — do have a lot of advantages over all-electric vehicles.

Imagine some wheelbarrows filled with rocks. The rocks contain lithium, cobalt, manganese, nickel, graphite and other materials for lithium-ion batteries. By Toyota’s calculation, the amount of rocks needed for one long-range electric vehicle would be enough for either six plug-in hybrids or 90 of the type of hybrid that can’t be plugged in for a recharge. (Namely, the type whose batteries are recharged from the engine or from braking."

“The overall carbon reduction of those 90 hybrids over their lifetimes is 37 times as much as a single battery electric vehicle,” Toyota argues. That’s a stunning statistic if true."

“Toyota’s claim is accurate. We’ve crunched the numbers on this,” Ashley Nunes told me. He is a senior research associate at Harvard Law School and the director for federal policy, climate and energy at the Breakthrough Institute, a think tank. He testified on the topic in April before the House Subcommittee on Environment, Manufacturing and Critical Materials."

Opinion | A Climate Hawk’s Issues With Electric Vehicles (Published 2023)

Toyota is notoriously skeptical of a rapid transition to all-electric E.V.s. It may have a point.

www.nytimes.com

Spot on

The government should stay right out of the car biz.

 

[Campgottagopee]

While people like skiers who generally drive long distances are interested in long electric range, most trips from home are seven miles or less. Running to the grocery store, drug store, school, work, etc. With a range of 30 miles electric, most people would seldom have a plug in hybrid kick over to gas. A plug in hybrid seems like a better solution for most people over an all electric vehicle with limited charging options available on trips and not having to worry about range anxiety. I believe Marz said that other than when she is on a long trip she never runs on gas in her plug in hybrid.
I still think hydrogen fuel cells will eventually take over the market from plug in electric vehicles due to shorter refueling time and less weight.

If you live in a city, maybe. But 7 miles from home doesn't float around here.

 

[Andy_ROC]

Here is an interesting article suggesting that hybrids might be better for the environment at the moment rather than full electric vehicles. The hybrids need less of the minerals that are needed for batteries while still offering battery power for the bulk of the miles driven.

"Right now, though, there’s a good argument to be made that the government, and automakers, are leaning too hard into all-electric and neglecting the virtues of hybrid technology. When I first heard this counterintuitive argument from Toyota, I dismissed it as heel-dragging by a company that lags in electrics, but I’ve come around to the idea that hybrids — at least for now — do have a lot of advantages over all-electric vehicles.

Imagine some wheelbarrows filled with rocks. The rocks contain lithium, cobalt, manganese, nickel, graphite and other materials for lithium-ion batteries. By Toyota’s calculation, the amount of rocks needed for one long-range electric vehicle would be enough for either six plug-in hybrids or 90 of the type of hybrid that can’t be plugged in for a recharge. (Namely, the type whose batteries are recharged from the engine or from braking."

“The overall carbon reduction of those 90 hybrids over their lifetimes is 37 times as much as a single battery electric vehicle,” Toyota argues. That’s a stunning statistic if true."

“Toyota’s claim is accurate. We’ve crunched the numbers on this,” Ashley Nunes told me. He is a senior research associate at Harvard Law School and the director for federal policy, climate and energy at the Breakthrough Institute, a think tank. He testified on the topic in April before the House Subcommittee on Environment, Manufacturing and Critical Materials."

Opinion | A Climate Hawk’s Issues With Electric Vehicles (Published 2023)

Toyota is notoriously skeptical of a rapid transition to all-electric E.V.s. It may have a point.

www.nytimes.com

Yup I'm a big fan of plug in hybrids. I certainly don't believe there needs to be an all or nothing solution. As I like to say in my profession when it comes to huge projects or making improvements... You don't have to swallow the elephant whole. A Plug hybrid is just that and can make a big difference.

For my style of driving I probably could go many months on one tank of gas...probably the biggest concern is the gas going bad

 

[MarzNC]

While people like skiers who generally drive long distances are interested in long electric range, most trips from home are seven miles or less. Running to the grocery store, drug store, school, work, etc. With a range of 30 miles electric, most people would seldom have a plug in hybrid kick over to gas. A plug in hybrid seems like a better solution for most people over an all electric vehicle with limited charging options available on trips and not having to worry about range anxiety. I believe Marz said that other than when she is on a long trip she never runs on gas in her plug in hybrid.

Yep, when I'm at home I rarely need to run on gas. Even if I do something that's over 20 miles from the house, only need to run 10-20 miles as a hybrid in addition to EV miles. I generally can plan ahead and run in HV mode while on a major highway (a few Interstate highways in the Triangle area). It's more efficient if I need to stretch beyond 45 EV miles.

The RAV4 Prime EPA rating for EV is 42 miles. I generally get 45-49 EV miles after an overnight charge, depending on the temperature. If for some reason I'm leaving home twice, I can charge the RAV4 Prime XSE using Level 2 in just under 2.5 hours. That's usually because my husband and I are going to a show in the evening.

My daughter has the 2021 RAV4 Prime SE. Her commute is 15 miles 1-way. So she's not using gas during the week at all. Takes about 4.5-5.0 hours using Level 2 for a full charge.

 

[MarzNC]

The RAV4 Prime EPA rating for EV is 42 miles. I generally get 45-49 EV miles after an overnight charge, depending on the temperature. If for some reason I'm leaving home twice, I can charge using Level 2 in just under 2.5 hours. That's usually because my husband and I are going to a show in the evening.

My daughter has the 2021 RAV4 Prime SE. Her commute is 15 miles 1-way. So she's not using gas during the week at all. Takes about 4.5-5.0 hours using Level 2 for a full charge.

Since we bought the 2022 RAV4 Prime, we added a lot of solar panels to the roof of the house as part of replacing the roof. Bonus was that insurance paid for most of the bill because of storm damage that had caused small leaks. The house faces south and gets a lot of sun pretty much all year round.

Being able to use a Level 2 charging cable is also a bonus from a past addition to the house. After Hurricane Fran in 1996, there was work done so that a big generator could be plugged in to run a few key appliances and circuits in the walk-out basement. We didn't have power for a week after that storm. Used to lose power fairly often because it was a pretty rural area. In the last decade the area near our house (built in 1980s) was developed as a high-end subdivisions, the main power lines are all buried so we are not nearly as likely to lose power due to a storm.

Now that there are two RAV4 Primes at the house, having the option of Level 2 charging comes in handy every so often.

When I go on long trips out of state, I bring the charging cable if I'm going to stay at a house for at least a few days.

 

[MarzNC]

Lately I've watched a few major golf tournaments on network TV. Noticed that a few brands had ads for their EVs. Hard to say when that started since I wasn't watching sports on network TV much in the past decade or two.

Not a big deal if you can't read the following article due to the paywall. What I found interesting is that four out of the five drive destinations were on out west, with Michigan the fifth.

June 30, 2023

5 Scenic E.V. Road Trips

Want to hit the road with your electric vehicle? These U.S. road trips offer gorgeous overlooks, welcoming stops and ample charging stations.

www.nytimes.com

" . . .
States like Indiana and Michigan have joined Colorado and others in building more charging stations on scenic routes and byways, while car rental companies are enlarging their electric car fleets. Hertz Rental Cars (also the parent company of Dollar and Thrifty) recently announced plans to dedicate a quarter of its fleet to E.V.s by the end of 2024, and competitors, including Enterprise and Avis, already lease Teslas, Chevrolet Bolts, Nissan Leafs and other electric vehicles. And UFODRIVE, an European company that exclusively rents electric vehicles through an app, has expanded into a few select U.S. cities this past year.

But interest and accessibility doesn’t necessarily mean effortless, smooth rides, especially for those new to electric vehicles. There is a learning curve, particularly when it comes to understanding the types of chargers available, the speed at which they’ll charge and the compatibility between chargers and vehicles.

Thankfully, whatever vehicle you are driving, websites, maps and apps can help plan your journey and find charging stations ahead of time. Brent Cowing, an E.V. driver who bought his first Tesla in 2018 and then a Rivian truck in 2022, is a fan of A Better Route Planner, a website and app that allows you to customize your route based on the make and model of your vehicle, the frequency and length of stops you’d like to take, and more.
. . ."