Will the Epic pass affect season pass prices in the northeast?

[Epicone]

How much have you skied at Bretton Woods or Waterville? My sense of both places is that their regulars are quite happy paying more for season passes because it thins out the crowd somewhat. I stayed overnight at one of the inns at Waterville during an early season ski safari. Had a good tour of BW with someone who retired to Franconia and skis Cannon, BW, and Loon depending on snow and weather conditions. My general impression is that few regulars at BW or Waterville know or care that ski forums exist.


While it could make some sense for a few people, Jiminy Peak, Bromley, and Cranmore serve pretty different markets. Cranmore draws families from Boston. JP draws from NYC as well as locally. It's 3 hours from Boston but folks in eastern MA are more used to driving north to ME if they are going to drive that long. Bromley is a ski area, not a ski resort since there is no slopeside lodging at all. I can't really see people who like those places wanting to drive to any of the others.

I like Jiminy Peak a lot compared to other ski resorts in that size category. I skied there a few times when my daughter was in school near Boston. Of course, I'm spoiled because I could stay slopeside at the Wyndham timeshare and ski midweek. The high speed lift makes for a lot of skiing midweek. Their investment in an express 6-pack and RFID is paying off I think.

Never skied Bretton woods or Waterville valley, my comments are more about the changing landscape of skiing due to ikon,epic Indy pass. But on alpine zone forums, lots of complaining about Waterville valley by nh/ Boston skiers, on New England ski resort news/ history, annual skier visits are way down at Waterville valley, Chris sununu in an article remarked once that their lodging was full but not their slopes. Lots of season pass regulars love the place to themselves, but that isn’t how areas make money, if alterra and vail make through this Covid 19 disaster pretty much in touch, where is Bretton woods and Waterville valley five years from now?

 

[Epicone]

LOL

There is no official definition as far as I know. I started separating ski area from ski resort in my mind after I started traveling with kids or adult intermediates. When having to stay overnight, makes quite a difference if there isn't lodging very close by. Doesn't have to be ski in/out but needs to be within a 10 min drive. Plenty of intermediates don't ski all day or want to take a long lunch, preferably at their lodging. With kids who are beginners also helps a lot to have something else to do that isn't skiing when staying 3-4 days. So that's another feature of a "resort."

Belleayre is a ski area to me. Windham and Hunter are ski resorts. Plattekill is an "old school" ski area.

Jiminy Peak is a ski resort. Berkshire East is an old school ski area. The little lodge near the base is too small to really count.

Stowe, Smuggs, Sugarbush, and Jay Peak are destination ski resorts. Meaning a good number of people go for a ski vacation that includes 4-7 days of skiing in a week.

Whiteface and Gore are harder to categorize.

I think ski resorts are more likely to be able to charge more for a 1-location season pass. The Epic locations in New England are mostly ski resorts with slopeside lodging. Sunapee has lodging options not that far away.

Do to lake placid and 32 and 80 olympics, I would say whiteface is a destination ski area, at least for us skiers, not sure how close to Montreal is lake placid.

 

[MarzNC]

Never skied Bretton woods or Waterville valley, my comments are more about the changing landscape of skiing due to ikon,epic Indy pass. But on alpine zone forums, lots of complaining about Waterville valley by nh/ Boston skiers, on New England ski resort news/ history, annual skier visits are way down at Waterville valley, Chris sununu in an article remarked once that their lodging was full but not their slopes. Lots of season pass regulars love the place to themselves, but that isn’t how areas make money, if alterra and vail make through this Covid 19 disaster pretty much in touch, where is Bretton woods and Waterville valley five years from now?

I took a peak at AZ a while back. Chose not to get involved. The regular posters on AZ are not the market that Waterville Valley is targeting. There is no question that Waterville had a low period. But in recent years they have upgraded lifts, added Green Peak, and have more lift upgrades in the works. Plus Waterville has the cross country trails. Based on my personal experience skiing there a couple times, I don't get the sense that WV is in any danger of disappearing any time soon.

Would Waterville be a good candidate as a partner for Ikon? The advantage is that the number of days is limited so less risk of being overrun. But a different market than those who buy the Indy Pass.

Could Waterville be an acquisition target for VR? What VR got from Peak Resorts were resorts where recent upgrade projects were finished. Certainly the case for Hunter and Mount Snow at least.

Could Waterville be an acquisition target for Alterra? Alterra has Sugarbush and Stratton in VT for the NYC/NJ, CT market. Ikon includes Loon, Sunday River, Sugarloaf for the Boston market.

 

[MarzNC]

Do to lake placid and 32 and 80 olympics, I would say whiteface is a destination ski area, at least for us skiers, not sure how close to Montreal is lake placid.

Most likely more people think of Whiteface and Lake Placid as a destination ski resort, as compared to just a ski area. There is enough lodging within a short drive and certainly plenty to do in Lake Placid. A friend goes there for Thanksgiving for early season turns pretty regularly because her non-skiing husband likes LP.

Montreal is 2 hours drive from Lake Placid, assuming a quick border crossing. Definitely a destination for Canadians during fall colors. I think more drive to Jay Peak than Whiteface when it comes to ski vacations. Tremblant is an hour from Montreal so that's quite popular too. Can either get a pass for Tremblant only or Ikon.

 

[Epicone]

I took a peak at AZ a while back. Chose not to get involved. The regular posters on AZ are not the market that Waterville Valley is targeting. There is no question that Waterville had a low period. But in recent years they have upgraded lifts, added Green Peak, and have more lift upgrades in the works. Plus Waterville has the cross country trails. Based on my personal experience skiing there a couple times, I don't get the sense that WV is in any danger of disappearing any time soon.

Would Waterville be a good candidate as a partner for Ikon? The advantage is that the number of days is limited so less risk of being overrun. But a different market than those who buy the Indy Pass.

Could Waterville be an acquisition target for VR? What VR got from Peak Resorts were resorts where recent upgrade projects were finished. Certainly the case for Hunter and Mount Snow at least.

Could Waterville be an acquisition target for Alterra? Alterra has Sugarbush and Stratton in VT for the NYC/NJ, CT market. Ikon includes Loon, Sunday River, Sugarloaf for the Boston market.

 

[Epicone]

Just looking at how this is shaking out in New England with the big four, Chris diamond also talks about Waterville valley, not sure if he mentions Bretton woods, but he also thinks Waterville valley is between rock and and a hard place. How many more ski areas can vail buy before the department of justice says no, one more ? Two more? So my guess is they will be cautious on who they buy next, due to Covid 19 vail wont buy anything for a few years, alterra probably can’t add Waterville valley without losing loon Mtn, on the pass, that leaves powdr Corp, would they buy Waterville valley, just look at jay Peak and Burke Mtn, they are for sale, maybe too high price, but the big four are not biting and their doesn’t seem to be any takers, my guess, Vail is done expanding, they will spend time and money upgrading what they have, if vail buys again in New England, it will be grabbing Smuggs and combining with Stowe, but who knows what vail is thinking, when renewals come up for alterra s mtns on the ikon, can alterra afford to keep them all? Mr win smith was genius selling sugarbush when did,

 

[Epicone]

Typo, win smith was a genius for selling sugarbush when he did

 

[MarzNC]

Typo, win smith was a genius for selling sugarbush when he did

I also think the Muellers were smart to sell Triple Peaks when VR came calling. Although it had to be hard for their children since they were running Crested Butte to switch gears.

The other resort that was picked up just before the pandemic changed everything was Crystal in QA. Clearly John Kircher's son had to shift his career plans quite a bit with that sale. John had grand plans for Crystal when he pulled out of Boyne Resorts to have a simpler approach. Stability is not easy to achieve in the ski industry.

Was the price of the Sugarbush season pass as high as Stowe was before it joined Epic? For Stowe, it was over $2000. So for locals to shift to Epic was quite a decrease.

 

[Epicone]

I also think the Muellers were smart to sell Triple Peaks when VR came calling. Although it had to be hard for their children since they were running Crested Butte to switch gears.

The other resort that was picked up just before the pandemic changed everything was Crystal in QA. Clearly John Kircher's son had to shift his career plans quite a bit with that sale. John had grand plans for Crystal when he pulled out of Boyne Resorts to have a simpler approach. Stability is not easy to achieve in the ski industry.

Was the price of the Sugarbush season pass as high as Stowe was before it joined Epic? For Stowe, it was over $2000. So for locals to shift to Epic was quite a decrease.

 

[Epicone]

Sugarbush in 16/17 was 1779, then in its last year 19/20 was 1270, so vail did drive down season pass prices at sugarbush, every time I would come back to sugarbush it was better, win smith did a great job their, problem with the sugarbush area, not a lot of restaurants/ bars near the Mtn, Stowe has them in spades, for my Stowe is 1a. And sugar bush is 1aa, love them both, just the restaurant scene is better at Stowe in my opinion. Peak resorts made a good decision to sell too, look at jay Peak, Burke, the big four are out of the buying business, and nobody buying. Wonder if that leaves an opening for wachusetts or Schaefer’s at Berkshire East.? Wonder if vail ever approached mr smith at sugarbush.? Between the two, their is more value at Stowe in my opinion,