Killington Village Discussion

[Benny Profane]

The lodging market at Eastern ski areas changed decades ago. Families moved away from lodges that served breakfast and dinner and included shared bathrooms or small hotel rooms that made after skiing and eating difficult to townhouses/condo style units with living rooms and full kitchens. Many people bought townhouses and now use them all year. These same units are mixed into the ski areas' rental pool. The East consists of weekend warriors that want to eat and relax in a larger space after skiing.

You cannot compare the East to the West. Trying to compare Western ski area that have weekly visitors from non-snow states to Eastern skiers who are local to the ski areas is nonsense.

Killington lost visitors to the family areas (Okemo/Stratton/Mt Snow/Loon/Bretton Woods) due to lack of housing and minimal base area housing.
Killington needs more lodging for visitors. It is that simple.

Not everyone can afford a condo at any ski area. And, if I'm up to speed, the average skier only does at the most a dozen days a year. Those people don't want to own anything that is useless to them the rest of the year, because they ain't coming up there after the snow melts.

I'm comparing total cost of a ski trip to Vermont vs. out west. It might be a bit more to go to Breck or Park City, but, not that much more, and the experience is so much better for most. Like I said, cheap air fare and rising middle class incomes killed the Catskills, and that's creeping into Vermont. The Catskills used to have massive hotels and resorts, and they are all gone, because everyone went to Miami and Vegas or whatever. Vail and the Alterra mountains and everyone else has all sorts of incentives to grab that market.

And, I'll keep on saying it. If there was demand, somebody will have filled that demand for housing if it made business sense. Why haven't they? Because it doesn't make sense. Nobody is stopping them. Now, you'll have an empty village at the base five days a week and a ghost town everywhere else. Nice. Hope Powdr survives the whole thing. I watched Otten drive that place into bankruptcy (and walk away a wealthy man) with real estate debacle after debacle, and maybe here we go again. As I said, these are not smart people.

I like Killington. Learned to ski there, probably have 3-400 days on that hill. I don't want to see it fail. Again.

 

[tirolski]

Goodbye getting there early and parking close so I can change skis quickly. No doubt they'll charge for all that, too.

Changing skis and/or diapers?

A couple allegedly left their 2-year-old in the car while they skied in Vermont. They told police they checked on the tot after each run.

Two parents are accused of leaving a 2-year-old in a car when temperatures were below freezing while they skied at a Vermont resort where they also worked.

www.boston.com

"Police said they eventually admitted they had left the child in the car while they skied and said they checked on the child after each run.

 

[x10003q]

Not everyone can afford a condo at any ski area. And, if I'm up to speed, the average skier only does at the most a dozen days a year. Those people don't want to own anything that is useless to them the rest of the year, because they ain't coming up there after the snow melts.

1.Do you really think the developer cannot sell 1500 slopeside units over several years at a place that has had over a million visits in past seasons? Also, this will be done in phases.
2. There are way more people who will ski Killington due to the Ikon pass and would love to have a new, modern slopeside unit to rent.
3. The developer is also building much needed employee housing.
4. The water supply is being greatly upgraded.

I'm comparing total cost of a ski trip to Vermont vs. out west. It might be a bit more to go to Breck or Park City, but, not that much more, and the experience is so much better for most. Like I said, cheap air fare and rising middle class incomes killed the Catskills, and that's creeping into Vermont. The Catskills used to have massive hotels and resorts, and they are all gone, because everyone went to Miami and Vegas or whatever. Vail and the Alterra mountains and everyone else has all sorts of incentives to grab that market.

A ski trip to Vermont for a family will always be way cheaper than a ski trip out West. It is not even close. Getting to the departure airport or paying for airport parking, flights and then ground transportation to and from the destination ski resort will all cost 15-20 times more than using the family car. You also have to burn the better part of 2 days traveling because that mythical cheap airfare(travel with bags?sit with your family? pay me) you mentioned includes extra stops on your way out west. For an Eastern trip, driving a total of 500 miles on your trip and averaging a reasonable 21mpg at $3.50/gallon you are under $100 for your ski vacation travel cost and you spent only 4-5 hours getting to the resort. You can easily ski the last day and be home a few hours later. A Sunday to Friday Eastern trip only needs 5 nights of lodging for 5 days of skiing. That is almost impossible on cheap airfare so you need to pay for 1 or 2 extra nights to get 5 days of skiing.

While the terrain and snow are usually better out west, the Eastern slopes have way less people midweek vs Western resorts. I spent last week at Sugarbush and the snow was perfect all week. The trails were empty. When I ski out west the trails are not empty. By the way, we did not have to buy our slopeside condo at Sugarbush, we just rented and with our Ikon passes we just went directly to the lifts.

Referring to the Catskills issues in a ski blog discussion is a meaningless point. Those resorts were not ski resorts.

And, I'll keep on saying it. If there was demand, somebody will have filled that demand for housing if it made business sense. Why haven't they? Because it doesn't make sense. Nobody is stopping them.

Vermont Act 250 says hi. Ever hear of it? It is onerous at best. It adds way too much time to business decisions. By the time VT finally negotiates and approves the project the financing disappeared due to the ups and downs of the economy. Let's not pretend that ski areas in the East are flush with cash, either. Add in the needed infrastructure upgrades (water supply and roads) and you can see why it took so long to get this approved.

Now, you'll have an empty village at the base five days a week and a ghost town everywhere else. Nice. Hope Powdr survives the whole thing. I watched Otten drive that place into bankruptcy (and walk away a wealthy man) with real estate debacle after debacle, and maybe here we go again. As I said, these are not smart people.

I like Killington. Learned to ski there, probably have 3-400 days on that hill. I don't want to see it fail. Again

This will help support businesses up and down the access road and make Killington a more profitable resort because that is its purpose. It will also pump lots of money into Vermont's tax collections. We shall see if it works.

 

[Benny Profane]

Did you work for Les Otten or Intrawest? Are you in the real estate sales side of things? Are you old enough to remember the great crash of the eastern ski market in the 90s, primarily due to ski mountain corporations going deeply into debt from investing and building too much housing, thinking that was the future? How did that work out? Before this Covid/pandemic surge in pricing, which, I'm guessing, will prove to be temporary, like so many other inflation points, like used cars and bicycles and eggs, Killington RE was still in a funk from those times. A lot of people who bought in the 90s were still underwater or just had their heads above. My buddy picked up a serviceable one bedroom on Rt. 4 for 90 grand. Mountain Green condos were going for 65 grand, and they are walkable to Snowshed and have a reliable income stream, since the place is essentially a hotel. If I could go back in time, I'd buy one and call it retirement savings, because it would be really nice to have one in retirement, considering the savings in food costs, too.

The Ikon pass entitles a holder to 5 or 7 days at Killington. Those people are not buying condos. Some are probably so gullible that they will be talked into a time share, so, I'll give you that. Not enough to fill the project. They'll regret that in five years. "Ewww, daddy, I wanna go to Colorado."

You contradict yourself with Act 250. Isn't this project subject to its restrictions, too? Wait until the new owners get their property tax bill, unless the legislature carves Killington out of it, but, I hope not. It's the best defense local Vermonters have against the horrid inequalities you find all over the West at the base of ski areas, where second home owners totally skew housing markets by building mansions that only get used two weeks a year. Somebody had some sense writing that law.

You have to get out west a bit more. To compare the experience is kinda absurd. Scenery alone. Oh, and then there's Europe. Try it. Pain in the ass to get to and back, but, when you're sitting on a deck looking at the Alps eating a fine lunch that's probably cheaper than the deep fried twenty dollar American junk, and then hit the massive groomers, you'll get my point. Like I said, if you're only doing one week a year, like the average gaper, there is no comparison.

I'm guessing, since all of this is being supported by a weekend demand market in this thread, that those beds in the "village" will wind up costing 350-500 a night. Then the restaraunts in the village will probably be charging close to 60-100 a head for mediocre dinners for the convenience of not leaving the "village". Just like the World Cup and the new lodge, you gotta pay for it somehow. Nope. It ain't Vail, it ain't Big Sky, it aint the Dolomites. Those are a plane flight away. Real snow, real mountains

 

[Andy_ROC]

I like infrastructure improvements and supporting locals. ButyCorporatization sucks. It flies in the face of buy local and supporting the little guy.

Plus all this big corporate investment is running straight into climate change and shorter winters. You can only fight it for so long with better snow making but eventually temperatures and rain win.

 

[x10003q]

​

Here you go Benny, a Green Mountain Condo Time Machine straight from 1982, almost all original for only $154,000. You need to snap it up. Never say I didn't do anything for you!

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/135-E-Mountain-Rd-1B8-Killington-VT-05751/2059463754_zpid/

 

[snoloco]

The reason why Mountain Green has so many units available is because the building was found to be in need of expensive structural repairs, resulting in large assessments being levied on the homeowners. As such, many opted to sell. You'll get a low price, but have a hefty HOA bill to help cover the repairs.

 

[x10003q]

The reason why Mountain Green has so many units available is because the building was found to be in need of expensive structural repairs, resulting in large assessments being levied on the homeowners. As such, many opted to sell. You'll get a low price, but have a hefty HOA bill to help cover the repairs.

There is always more to the story.

 

[Benny Profane]

Benny Profane​

Here you go Benny, a Green Mountain Condo Time Machine straight from 1982, almost all original for only $154,000. You need to snap it up. Never say I didn't do anything for you!

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/135-E-Mountain-Rd-1B8-Killington-VT-05751/2059463754_zpid/​

Oh, I'd never buy there. I've heard horror stories of drunk teenagers up til dawn. But, the old condo market nearby is still kinda cheap, considering.

I stayed in a friend's condo at the base of Pico a few years ago. Walk to lifts, one bedroom, a lot fresher than the old Killington stock. The owner was trying to unload it for 55 grand, one bedroom. I was tempted. New kitchen. Something like that in Colorado would be near 500,000.

 

[tirolski]

The reason why Mountain Green has so many units available is because the building was found to be in need of expensive structural repairs, resulting in large assessments being levied on the homeowners. As such, many opted to sell. You'll get a low price, but have a hefty HOA bill to help cover the repairs.

$437 a month for HOA dues is high for The Beast condos?

135 EAST MOUNTAIN ROAD, #1-B-7, Killington, VT 05751 - PrimeMLS

Now it is your turn to own within walking distance of Killington World Class resort. This cute 1 BR is right across the street from the Snowshed Lift at Killington, Killington Golf Course and right next to the newer outdoor salt water inground pool. Mountain Green has very few rental...

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