ICE v Electric: Cost and Emissions

Tjf1967 said:
The problem with hydrogen is that 95% of it is being made with fossil fuels. Plug has been transitioning to being a hydrogen producer for years. Green hydrogen could be the ticket. There is room for batteries and hydrogen. I guess we will know in 20 years which is better.
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Plug is building out a green hydrogen infrastructure now. Major investments in NYS, ideal with our abundant hydro power. More in major US hubs with similar alternative energy. Partnerships in S Korea and Europe. Well on the way.
 
Milo Maltbie said:
Hydrogen is not dense enough for easy use, and it can make steel pressure vessels brittle. The pressure vessels you need to store H2 are probably too heavy for aviation. It probably can't be distributed to homes the way natural gas is, and it certainly couldn't be distributed by converting the natural gas system to H2.
You also need make it from electricity, which means to be emission free you need to build solar, nuclear or hydro. All those are technical problems which may or may not be solved soon.
Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and always will be.

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They are experimenting with pelletized hydrogen that is reconstituted in flight. Some incredible innovation at work in to solve these challenges.
 
Gorehoar said:
They are experimenting with pelletized hydrogen that is reconstituted in flight. Some incredible innovation at work in to solve these challenges.
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I had't heard of that but there have been other solid storage solutions proposed. AFAIK none of them have been implemented at scale yet.
The main reason I think EVs will dominate over hydrogen is that EV batteries will better supprt the grid. Time will tell.

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Campgottagopee said:
It feels like EV's are being crammed down our throats.
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Regulatory agencies are betting that EV support will be popular, and most car companies are betting that government support will continue. They're both betting that everyone will want an EV, which seems like a good bet. The dynamic really isn't much different than when they crammed interstate highways down our throats.
Campgottagopee said:
EV's seem to save money for people who already have money.
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That's just capitalism, but government support of EVs is part of the program to take carbon out the whole economy, not about saving money. OTOH the way you make your policy work is to insure that people can make money with it.

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Milo Maltbie said:
Regulatory agencies are betting that EV support will be popular, and most car companies are betting that government support will continue. They're both betting that everyone will want an EV, which seems like a good bet. The dynamic really isn't much different than when they crammed interstate highways down our throats.

That's just capitalism, but government support of EVs is part of the program to take carbon out the whole economy, not about saving money. OTOH the way you make your policy work is to insure that people can make money with it.

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Oh yes, Americans in the 1950s and 1960s hated the idea of getting into their huge, comfortable sedans that were rocking V8s and covering hundreds of miles in a few hours on those brand new concrete carpets at 70mph. How Horrible!!
 
Milo Maltbie said:
That's just capitalism, but government support of EVs is part of the program to take carbon out the whole economy, not about saving money. OTOH the way you make your policy work is to insure that people can make money with it.

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Right
Now gas/fuel and EV'S are out of reach for the common folk.
 
Campgottagopee said:
...EV'S are out of reach for the common folk.
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Are they really? Is a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt all that more expensive than gas?
The way you move the market is to build stuff that everyone wants even if they can't afford it. Then you build cheaper copies. That's why Elon Musk started with a roadster, then the Model S, which was clearly aimed at the MB S class. A few thousand Model S's is a great success, but if he started by competing for the Hundai market a hundred thousand or even a million would have been a failure, and everyone would have head all the complaints about range and charging problems.

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Milo Maltbie said:
Are they really? Is a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt all that more expensive than gas?
The way you move the market is to build stuff that everyone wants even if they can't afford it. Then you build cheaper copies. That's why Elon Musk started with a roadster, then the Model S, which was clearly aimed at the MB S class. A few thousand Model S's is a great success, but if he started by competing for the Hundai market a hundred thousand or even a million would have been a failure, and everyone would have head all the complaints about range and charging problems.

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That's fine for those who don't have families or don't need trucks.
What's a family of 5 going to buy?
What's a person that needs a 3/4 ton truck going to buy?
It's being forced. It feels like a square peg in a round hole.
 
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