Uphill Battle

[JTG]

You probably don’t want to hear this but......poaching is one good and valid reason the resorts don’t want uphill traffic.

True, but resorts can encourage uphill travel without giving uphill-ers free and open access to everything, which I’m ok with.

Granted, out west it is easier and/or there are more reasons to open ‘limited’ uphill access....because such access leads to backcountry on public lands. Take Crystal in WA for example. They have half a dozen designated uphill routes, although at any given time only two might be open. You have to get an uphill pass...which is free by the way. However, with that people have the opportunity to skin and ski limited terrain within the resort, or the Quicksilver route leads to a trailhead accessing backcountry areas outside of the designated resort boundary. None of that in the east really, which is why I agree with TJ that I wouldn’t pay to uphill and ski down a few groomed trails here. Of course that is easy for me to say because I’ve had plenty of other opportunities to get skinning experience.....

 

[raisingarizona]

Uphilling blew up here in flagstaff a few years back. We have a very serious trail running community and a lot of them find going uphill to be a perfect winter match for their training.

It went unmanaged for a few years and led to a lot of problems for the groomers and snow makers trying to work safely and not endanger the public. It became a headache for those employees trying to get their jobs done. We would also see hundreds of tracks on our premiere powder skiing runs before the first chair was loaded. That’s kind of a bummer for the season pass holder that expects a certain experience on those days and paid a thousand dollars to use the lifts and facilities. Even worse, we would get poachers going into the upper bowl when ski patrol needed to do bombing. It literally set back getting terrain open to the public.

I totally get the argument for having something available for that crowd but I also understand a ski areas decision to only allow it on small, designated areas or to not allow it at all. It can be a big pia for operations and a liability issue as well.

 

[raisingarizona]

True, but resorts can encourage uphill travel without giving uphill-ers free and open access to everything, which I’m ok with.

Granted, out west it is easier and/or there are more reasons to open ‘limited’ uphill access....because such access leads to backcountry on public lands. Take Crystal in WA for example. They have half a dozen designated uphill routes, although at any given time only two might be open. You have to get an uphill pass...which is free by the way. However, with that people have the opportunity to skin and ski limited terrain within the resort, or the Quicksilver route leads to a trailhead accessing backcountry areas outside of the designated resort boundary. None of that in the east really, which is why I agree with TJ that I wouldn’t pay to uphill and ski down a few groomed trails here. Of course that is easy for me to say because I’ve had plenty of other opportunities to get skinning experience.....

Definitely. That’s how Snowbowl has dealt with it. There’s also a local advocate for that community that makes it very clear to everyone that if the rules are broken Snowbowl retains the right to close it all down. Poachers could and would ultimately ruin that program.

 

[tirolski]

Ripz,
$129 for three days a week between 6-8:30am? It reminds me of caddy day at Bushwood, “caddies welcome 1-1:15”.
At least ya can get in 9 holes before work at that price.

Judge Smails: You'll get nothing and like it!

 

[Ripitz]

I’m glad/sad I mentioned it and thank you for pointing it out. Poaching can definitely be a problem and I am sorry that it has become an issue for your area. Letting people on the hill during off hours seems more problematic and that’s why I am advocating for uphill day use. Like speeding there are different levels of endangerment. Skiing through areas that are being avy controlled by patrol is unacceptable. In Big Sky they would take you straight to jail. If your actions endanger other people you should be held accountable. Policies suck but what goes at one place could be problematic at another. The Greylock Ski Club is only open on the weekends but is often tracked up by members uphilling during the week. Sure it sucks showing up on Saturday thinking you’ll get first tracks to discover you were late, but I’m happy for the ones who got there’s. I definitely agree that inbounds touring gives you a great, safe place to get accustomed to gear, work on transitions and get in shape for bigger trips into the backcountry. Some places in the East have embraced it like Black Mountain in NH and Magic in VT. I just hope NY isn’t too far behind. It’s no wonder the Europeans laugh at us.

 

[Harvey]

Maybe not a surprise, I come down on the side of the resorts on this. Whatever they want to do seems like fair game.

"Lift ticket" is not really an accurate term. It's really an infrastructure ticket. When you are uphilling you may be using multiple parts of the infrastructure. Plowing or paving of the parking lot, bathrooms, garbage removal and of course snowmaking. Do uphillers use the lodge in a "normal" year?

If you are a capitalist then you believe each business can set the price for their products, or not offer them at all. If you think an uphill ticket is too expensive the translation is that that product, at that price doesn't make sense for you. That's all, nothing more.

Regarding the whole "Whiteface is on state land" thing. Everything that Whiteface offers has a price, that is set by the managers of the business. To me this is not really different.

I'm sure Magic's decision is grounded in what they think is best for their business. Every other ski area too.

 

[Tjf1967]

Uphilling blew up here in flagstaff a few years back. We have a very serious trail running community and a lot of them find going uphill to be a perfect winter match for their training.

It went unmanaged for a few years and led to a lot of problems for the groomers and snow makers trying to work safely and not endanger the public. It became a headache for those employees trying to get their jobs done. We would also see hundreds of tracks on our premiere powder skiing runs before the first chair was loaded. That’s kind of a bummer for the season pass holder that expects a certain experience on those days and paid a thousand dollars to use the lifts and facilities. Even worse, we would get poachers going into the upper bowl when ski patrol needed to do bombing. It literally set back getting terrain open to the public.

I totally get the argument for having something available for that crowd but I also understand a ski areas decision to only allow it on small, designated areas or to not allow it at all. It can be a big pia for operations and a liability issue as well.

By blow up do you mean like 20 cars for dawn patrol. That's what they get on the busiest days at Whiteface. They say its safety, people mess with the groomers and the winch line and whatever other bull shit they can make up. And they do have a point, but come on it a one off thing when something happens like that and you can probably count on one hand the totality of the incidents. Its miserable people preaching safety when really they just want to pee in the skinners cheerios cause they can.

 

[Ripitz]

Coming slowly up a mountain near you,

Hunter allows it two hours prior to opening. There is an uphill trail hotline for daily info 518.628.5393

Windham allows it during regular open hours with an uphill ticket or season pass. It is permitted during daylight hours when the mountain is closed on the designated route of the day which is on the mountain report posted online.

Catamount has access from dawn to dusk. Uphill season pass is $50 and $15 for the day.
Check at the base for daily routes and info

Belleayre and Gore not allowed

 

[Milo Maltbie]

Regarding the whole "Whiteface is on state land" thing. Everything that Whiteface offers has a price, that is set by the managers of the business. To me this is not really different.

ORDA is not a business. It is a state agency and part of it's mission is to provide recreation to the public. Without that it has no reason to be in the ski resort business. All it's policies must be judged by what the public wants, not by shareholder wealth or private property rights.

Whiteface should allow reasonable uphill travel, consistent with safety. Pricing it out of reach is not reasonable.

mm

 

[Milo Maltbie]

Coming slowly up a mountain near you,

Hunter allows it two hours prior to opening. There is an uphill trail hotline for daily info 518.628.5393

Windham allows it during regular open hours with an uphill ticket or season pass. It is permitted during daylight hours when the mountain is closed on the designated route of the day which is on the mountain report posted online.

Catamount has access from dawn to dusk. Uphill season pass is $50 and $15 for the day.
Check at the base for daily routes and info

Belleayre and Gore not allowed

The Bell and Gore uphill prohibition, and the Whiteface price, is just more evidence that ORDA doesn't care about what the skiing public wants.

mm