Ski Industry "Debundling"

[rebel1916]

Gore/Whiteface/Bellayre offers a discount card for 59 bucks that gets you a nice discount.

It used to give you a discount off of what they were charging the general public for that day, at the time you bought your ticket. Now it gives you a discount off the rack rate. My buddy and I bought tickets for next week, he paid $4 more than me. It's not worth the $59, at least if you plan ahead. In general, while the snowmaking at Belle is better than ever, I like going less. The new lodge stinks and it is often the only lodge open, the Gondola to nowhere is silly and if Tomahawk isn't running, very irritating, and the online sales interface stinks on ice.

 

[Temp6]

Epic season passes were down 12% this year. That's quite a bit. Some of those people likely bought one or more day passes but in any case they will get less valuable ancillary spend that way.

I wonder what Ikon numbers were? I haven’t heard of any Ikon mountain offering only paid options for parking and bag storage and not many complaints from Ikon holders overall. I’ve even bought a couple single day passes at ikon resorts last year (granted one was pico) and had a great time.

 

[takeahike46er]

IKON resorts aren’t really any better, IMO. Pick your poison.

For example, Crystal has received a ton of flack over their crowds and paid parking (hell, even Steven’s Pass and Whistler offer free parking). The cottonwood canyon resorts seem like a mess compared to year’s past.

 

[MarzNC]

I wonder what Ikon numbers were? I haven’t heard of any Ikon mountain offering only paid options for parking and bag storage and not many complaints from Ikon holders overall. I’ve even bought a couple single day passes at ikon resorts last year (granted one was pico) and had a great time.

Hard to say. Although in the interviews Stuart did in 2022 with leaders for Alterra, they seemed pretty happy in general.

Podcast #92: Alterra Mountain Company CEO Rusty Gregory

Listen now (92 min) | “We dramatically exceeded our expectations in every metric for the fifth year in a row.”

www.stormskiing.com

Worth keeping in mind that the business model for Ikon and Alterra is quite different than Epic and Vail Resorts. Alterra depends on the partnerships with well established independent destination resorts like Jackson Hole, Alta, Snowbird, and Apsen/Snowmass to sell Ikon passes. The fact that there is a tiered approach with Ikon Base, Ikon Base add-on option, Ikon Base Plus, and Full Ikon is a function of the Partners not wanting to deal with too many "bargain hunters" who only want to pay for Ikon Base. There are also more Partners requiring Ikon reservations in 2022-23 in order to have more control of the number of people during busy times (Saturdays, holidays).

Alterra's management approach provides far more local control than Vail Resorts' approach. That's fairly obvious if you look across the websites for Epic resorts, both large and small mountains. It took months for VR to finally get websites up for the trio of ski areas/resorts that were acquired by summer 2022. In contrast, someone didn't know that Solitude and Mammoth are owned by Alterra would be unlikely to guess the resorts are part of the same multi-resort corporation. Deer Valley is owned by Alterra but was limited for Ikon from the start. What happens at Snowshoe in WV has little to do with decisions made in other regions.

 

[MarzNC]

The cottonwood canyon resorts seem like a mess compared to year’s past.

As is true for every mountain anywhere in day trip distance from Denver because of the population growth in the last decade. SLC and Ogden have a lot of people who moved there in the last 10-20 years because of the mountains. I gather traffic in Tahoe is also worse than a decade or two ago.

When I was at Winter Park a few weeks ago, it was interesting how many locals we happened to ride up with had never heard of Wolf Creek. They only ski in Summit County. A group of young adults left Denver at 6am in order to get to the MJ parking lot just before 8am on a Saturday during early season. Presumably they do that all season long. The guys who were leaving an MJ parking lot at noon on a Thursday were graduate students not from Colorado. The stories from a couple older men who have been skiing WP since before MJ opened up were fun to hear. I got the sense that they quit skiing on weekends years some time before Ikon was created.

Ikon/Epic are only one factor to crowded resorts and not a primary one in my opinion. For context, I started using the MCP a year after it came out and moved to Ikon when that became an option. My personal Top Five list out west as of 2022 includes Alta, Taos, and Big Sky. Currently Wolf Creek and Grand Targhee round out the list. Jackson Hole and Palisades Tahoe aren't in my Top Ten, while Aspen/Snowmass is based on a couple of trips. I've been skiing Alta for over 15 years on a regular basis and first skied there in 1970, first visit to Taos in 2017 evolved quickly into an annual trip, and the first trip to Big Sky was in 2011. Heading back to Big Sky this season for my 4th trip. Fair to say I've seen a lot of changes in the last dozen years at all of my favorite resorts. Each one has a more unique situation than may be obvious from a distance.

 

[snoloco]

One Alterra resort, Solitude, is unfortunately one of the worst offenders of nickel-and-diming their guests.

It's mandatory paid parking in all their lots, based on vehicle occupancy. The only way you can get it for free is to be a 4+ carpool.

1: $35
2: $25
3: $10
4+: Free

If you don't have enough people to get free parking, then you can avoid paying by taking the UTA Ski Bus, only to be slapped with a 12 to 20 dollar fee for the lockers when you arrive.

They claimed that "we're just trying to get people to carpool or use the bus, not make money with paid parking", but their actions regarding the lockers suggest otherwise. Whether you drive or take the bus, you get hosed either way. The only ways to avoid paying for either are to be a 4+ carpool, or boot up before taking the bus and plan to not need anything out of your bag the entire day. Both are not feasible for the majority of skiers. Management knows this, which is why these policies are in place.

Any resort saying they're not attempting to make money with paid parking is lying though their teeth.

All these nickel-and-diming schemes are also meant to disproportionately punish solo travelers, which is a problem when you're single and don't have many friends.

 

[Benny Profane]

It used to give you a discount off of what they were charging the general public for that day, at the time you bought your ticket. Now it gives you a discount off the rack rate. My buddy and I bought tickets for next week, he paid $4 more than me. It's not worth the $59, at least if you plan ahead. In general, while the snowmaking at Belle is better than ever, I like going less. The new lodge stinks and it is often the only lodge open, the Gondola to nowhere is silly and if Tomahawk isn't running, very irritating, and the online sales interface stinks on ice.

It is if you're old like me. But, if it doesn't snow, well, no.

 

[Harvey]

Ikon/Epic are only one factor to crowded resorts and not a primary one in my opinion.

Are resorts really more crowded, or just getting more attention for crowds via social media? Are they more crowded out west than in the east? Why aren't skier visits rising more dramatically? Last year was the biggest ever for visits, but by a very small margin and not much above the 20 year average.

Population growth is happening in (almost) every state, but fastest out west (Utah and Nevada, AZ at the top), second fastest in the south and southeast.

Are powder days and good snow days becoming less frequent, so everyone comes out on the same days, enhancing the perception of "crowded-ness"? From what I have read the ski season is significantly shorter than it was in 1980.

Be great to understand what is really happening.

 

[Benny Profane]

Bottom line, SLC is one of the fastest growing cities in America (and Mormons make a ton of babies), with an airport that receives skiers from the other fast growing cities in the west easily and cheaply (Denver is a long drive) and is a short distance to all the resorts. And it's not really that far from Newark.

Too many people.

IKON resorts aren’t really any better, IMO. Pick your poison.

For example, Crystal has received a ton of flack over their crowds and paid parking (hell, even Steven’s Pass and Whistler offer free parking). The cottonwood canyon resorts seem like a mess compared to year’s past.

 

[takeahike46er]

As is true for every mountain Ikon/Epic are only one factor to crowded resorts and not a primary one in my opinion.

Totally agree.

The point remains that overcrowding, paid parking, and ancillary charges are not a unique feature of one mega pass vs the other, regardless of the combination of causes.