Poll: The Impact of the Epic Pass

What is the impact of the Epic Pass?

  • • I don't have an Epic Pass.

  • • I have an Epic Pass because it was the best option for me.

  • • I have an Epic Pass because my mountain is a Vail mountain.

  • I don't see any impact of the Epic Pass, positive or negative.

  • Epic is good for skiers.

  • Epic is bad for skiers.

  • Epic is good for member mountains.

  • Epic is bad for member mountains.

  • Epic is good for the ski business longterm.

  • Epic is bad for the ski business longterm.

  • Epic is good for skiing.

  • It's not that it's evil, it's just that it's bad.


Results are only viewable after voting.
Since the trend of acquiring more resorts continues, we must assume it is good for the member mountains.
... must ASSUME? It makes an ASS of U and ME.

The trend of acquiring more resorts continues just means acquiring more resorts is a priority of their business.

MTN stock actually went down 2.5% after the announcement of their latest 3-Pa acquisitions.

Vail Resorts Inc. has $1.78 billion in “goodwill" on their books and it’ll most likely go up after its latest buy.
Goodwill may not be what ya think it is.
Acquisition can be an addiction.
Does Enron and/or Worldcom ring any bells anymore?
 
There was a time I considered that it might be a good idea to have an Epic pass. Who wouldn't want to be able to ski at many mountains with one pass? But then if I bought an epic I'd base my travel around where there was an epic mountain, and I don't like that. I don't want to be tied down.

Long term I see this as hurting the ski industry. Big corporate monopolies and the Disneyfication of skiing is something I loath. Squeezing smaller mountains and non epic mountains financially will force some out of business and ultimately leave us with fewer choices. This will result in higher prices and more crowding. Not good.

Oh and in the meantime it was just announced days ago that VR just bought 3 more mountains. Ugh.
 
I've been a big critic of Vail Inc. and its management, but, I actually voted that the Epic pass is good for skiing, in general, because its created a whole new pricing model that introduces great value to skiers like me. As the president of Steamboat and Alterra bigwig Rob Perlman said on Stuart Winchester's latest podcast, we are now getting full season passes to excellent mountains plus week long passes at many other quality places for less than what was the price of a season pass to just one of those mountains a decade and even more in the past. You cant deny the upside to that. Sure, its created problems, but, consider the alternative. The skiing business could be in much worse shape than it is if it wasn't for multi passes and snowboarding. They ain't making new ski areas, and many are on the brink of death.

My issue is with quality of management. I think that Vail Inc. is crudely run, with poor customer service and just seems to be on a mission to churn easy money into more acquisitions, with no real thought as to how to improve the experience on their hills. Alterra seems to be more discriminating in aquisitions, buying and adding quality mountains to the mix, and reacts to it's own data collection and customer feedback to make their mountains better places to ski for their customers, both local and destination. So, that's why I dont have an Epic pass, but I do have an Ikon. I'm flying out to Mammoth and Palisades Tahoe soon, and I'll be skiing Killington, Stratton, Sugarbush, and maybe Sugarloaf/Sunday River in the meat of the season, and, if conditions are good, driving out to Colorado late March early April to ski at Aspen, Abasin, and Copper. If there still weren't Covid restrictions in Italy, I'd swap Colorado for the Dolomites. That's a ton of really good skiing for the money. If only there was an Ikon pass for ski hotels.
 
I have a Northeast Value Pass for the second year in a row. For me, it made sense from a cost perspective. I also have a Ski3 pass and a Ski Vermont 4-pack--I clearly hate paying retail!

I typically make it to Hunter 3-6 times a year anyway and combined with one weekend at Stowe it's a cheaper option ($525 last year/$475 this year) that daily lift tickets. A friend of mine and I are also planning an "Epic" day on the way up to Stowe. We are going to hit Hunter, Mount Snow and Okemo for a couple runs at each place on the way to break-up the trip, just because we can. At least last year, it provided access to the mountain as only passholders could ski prior to mid-December and had priority for reservations later in the season. Because I have the pass I am more likely to get out to the mountain on what may be a "marginal" day because it's a sunk cost (not counting gas--but let's not wade into those waters). There is also a discount on food, which is nice.

From a member mountain perspective, it's a mixed bag. People are likely going to hit the mountains on their pass with more frequency and spend money on food, beverages and maybe even parking. It may even get a passholder to check out a mountain they may otherwise not have gone to. If I ever make to NH, I will surely check out Wildcat over say Bretton Woods, because I have the pass. It also theoretically helps insulate them from bad years and can provide excess capital for improvements because they have a corporate backstop. So keeping a mountain from closing is a big benefit of corporate ownership. Theoretically anyway. On the downside however, is the corporate homogenization of the mountain and maybe even more crowded slopes. The former is definitely having an impact at Hunter, from their crappy website to the way employees are treated to seemingly less snowmaking. I am not convinced the crowds are really that much different (I remember skiing in the 80s).

Does the Epic (or Ikon) pass hurt the industry and/or independent mountains? I don't think so. If you are offering your customers a differentiated experience, like Plattekill, Magic, MRG, West, Jay, Smuggs, Elk, etc. they will come. I know if there is snow and terrain is open I am driving the extra half hour and shelling out actual cash to ski Plattekill and not Hunter or Belleayre (I don't consider Windham a credible option). If consolidation and the corporate environment save a mountain: great, if they turn people off, those people will seek out the alternative "soul" that independents can provide.

In summary, I think the "one size fits all" that Epic seems to be taking is not a net positive--there should be local expertise. Each mountain should have it's own feel and respond to local factors in its community. I also think the strawman argument some people make that Epic passholders only ski at their corporate mountains, want groomed crowded slopes and are sucking the soul of of skiing (https://www.tetongravity.com/films/in-pursuit-of-soul) isn't accurate or that helpful.

At the end of the day, I am going to a mountain based on conditions, terrain, distance and who I am skiing with. It's not that different from deciding where to have dinner--a nice local restaurant, a corporate chain or fast food. I know skiing at Okemo is like eating at Applebees, but sometimes it's the right choice.

In closing, I think there is a real fear that Jay or Smuggs get bought by a corporate and it will sucking the soul from skiing. While that may be true to an extent, no corporation is going to take away that feeling you have when you are out in nature and about to send it.
 
I think the "one size fits all" that Epic seems to be taking is not a net positive--there should be local expertise.
This is a significant part of the efficiency that helps Vail cut the cost of the Epic Pass.
 
My own feeling is that the greatest negative impacts of Epic are felt in the East at mountains closest to major population centers (looking at you Huntah). 2019 was the final nail in the coffin for my Epic pass buying, crowds and lift lines were simply too much to bare IMO. I don't think Epic is negative for the skiers or the industry as a whole, I have a lot of friends who are casual skiers and riders (Christmas and Presidents day crowd) who would have just been day ticket buyers prior to Epic. Now these friends will buy the Epic local pass, ski and ride two or three of their usual weekends and get a vacation out west in. They may only be getting 6-8 days in per season, but their perception is that they are getting a great value with Epic for their purposes. For the ski industry, engaging this casual customer and getting them out an additional three to four visits a season is great, they will justify more gear purchases and etc.

Vail does a poor job with staffing, management and over all guest experience IMO, but if you were to ask the very same skiers and riders who I describe above about that, they likely wouldn't notice because their experiences skiing have always been associated with the big ski weekends. If you're willing to look else where, or are fortunate enough to have the flexibility to ski and ride off hours and weekdays, the experience can still be great. Most mountains cleared out come March, the casual types don't have skiing and riding on the mind as the season shifts to spring and warm temps start creeping back into the flat lands. Knowing when and where to get it is the key to having a great time out, something that I think most on this form are well aware of. My lady and I went to Huntah Huntah at 1pm on a weekday in March, pre purchased day tickets online for a little more than 40 bucks each, parked next to the lodge, rode for 3 hours non stop without waiting in a lift line and had a lovely dinner at Phoenicia diner after, great experience but you won't catch me back there unless its under a similar circumstance.
 
Knowing when and where to get it is the key to having a great time out, something that I think most on this form are well aware of. My lady and I went to Huntah Huntah at 1pm on a weekday in March, pre purchased day tickets online for a little more than 40 bucks each, parked next to the lodge, rode for 3 hours non stop without waiting in a lift line and had a lovely dinner at Phoenicia diner after, great experience but you won't catch me back there unless its under a similar circumstance.

Like Kenny Rogers said...

Hunter is great in December and March. Non-holiday Sundays during Jan-Feb are a maybe, Saturday is a never. Pro-tip: park at Hunter North.
 
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