ICE v Electric: Cost and Emissions

DomB

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2020
I thought this was interesting and worth sharing. I believe car transportation emissions are in the 15-25% range for the US's carbon footprint. This article discusses an MIT study suggesting that EV's are cheaper and lower in emissions over time versus ICEs when you look at total cost of ownership.

I think it is fair use, but this is an NYTimes article.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/15/climate/electric-car-cost.html

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Electric Cars Are Better for the Planet – and Often Your Budget, Too​

By Veronica Penney Jan. 15, 2021
Electric vehicles are better for the climate than gas-powered cars, but many Americans are still reluctant to buy them. One reason: The larger upfront cost.
New data published Thursday shows that despite the higher sticker price, electric cars may actually save drivers money in the long-run.
To reach this conclusion, a team at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology calculated both the carbon dioxide emissions and full lifetime cost — including purchase price, maintenance and fuel — for nearly every new car model on the market.
They found electric cars were easily more climate friendly than gas-burning ones. Over a lifetime, they were often cheaper, too.

category_chart-1050px.png

Average carbon dioxide emissions per mile
800 grams
Toyota Sequoia
Lexus GX
600
Diesel cars
Traditional gas-powered cars span a range of prices and emissions.
400
Hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles are about the same price as traditional cars, but cut emissions roughly in half.
Honda Civic
Fuel cell
HIGHER EMISSIONS
200
Nissan Leaf
Electric cars have the lowest cost and emissions over time.
HIGHER COST
0
$250
$300
$350
$400
$450
$500
$550
$600
$650
$700
$750
$800
$850
Average cost per month
Purchase price, maintenance, fuel
Source: carboncounter.com by the MIT Trancik Lab | Note: The chart shows data for new cars, SUVs and other models that retail for $55,000 or less. The most fuel efficient trim for each car is included and additional trim levels are shown for cars over $35,000 if they have a lower fuel economy rating than other trims shown (they are less efficient) by at least 4 miles per gallon.
Climate scientists say vehicle electrification is one of the best ways to reduce planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions. In the United States, the transportation sector is the largest source of emissions, most of which come from cars and trucks.
Jessika Trancik, an associate professor of energy studies at M.I.T. who led the research, said she hoped the data would “help people learn about how those upfront costs are spread over the lifetime of the car.”
For electric cars, lower maintenance costs and the lower costs of charging compared with gasoline prices tend to offset the higher upfront price over time. (Battery-electric engines have fewer moving parts that can break compared with gas-powered engines and they don’t require oil changes. Electric vehicles also use regenerative braking, which reduces wear and tear.)
The cars are greener over time, too, despite the more emissions-intensive battery manufacturing process. Dr. Trancik estimates that an electric vehicle’s production emissions would be offset in anywhere from six to 18 months, depending on how clean the energy grid is where the car is charging.

The new data showed hybrid cars, which run on a combination of fuel and battery power, and can sometimes be plugged in, had more mixed results for both emissions and costs. Some hybrids were cheaper and spewed less planet-warming carbon dioxide than regular cars, but others were in the same emissions and cost range as gas-only vehicles.
Traditional gas-burning cars were usually the least climate friendly option, though long-term costs and emissions spanned a wide range. Compact cars were usually cheaper and more efficient, while gas-powered SUVs and luxury sedans landed on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Dr. Trancik’s team released the data in an interactive online tool to help people quantify the true costs of their car-buying decisions — both for the planet and their budget. The new estimates update a study published in 2016 and add to a growing body of research underscoring the potential lifetime savings of electric cars.
Comparing individual cars can be useful — and sometimes surprising.

comparison_chart-Artboard-600.png

Toyota RAV4 XLE
Retail: $27,450
Average carbon dioxide
emissions per mile
Nissan Altima
Retail: $26,800
The hybrid is cheaper and has lower emissions over time, despite the higher price tag.
400 grams
Toyota RAV4 LE Hybrid
Retail: $28,500
The electric Tesla and gas- powered Nissan end up costing about the same over time.
HIGHER EMISSIONS
200
Tesla Model 3
Retail: $37,990
HIGHER COST
0
$300
$350
$400
$450
$500
$550
$600
Average cost per month
Purchase price, maintenance, fuel
Source: carboncounter.com by the M.I.T. Trancik Lab | Note: For their calculations, the M.I.T. researchers assumed each car would last 15 years and drive an average of 13,000 miles per year. The most closely comparable drivetrain and trim levels are shown in each vehicle pairing in this chart.
Take the Tesla Model 3, the most popular electric car in the United States. The M.I.T. team estimated the lifetime cost of the most basic model as comparable to a Nissan Altima that sells for $11,000 less upfront. (That’s even though Tesla’s federal tax incentive for electric vehicles has ended.)
Toyota’s Hybrid RAV4 S.U.V. also ends up cheaper in the long run than a similar traditional RAV4, a national bestseller, despite a higher retail price.
The charts above use nationwide average prices for gasoline and electricity to estimate lifetime costs, but the results may shift depending on where potential buyers live. (The interactive tool allows users to input their local rates.)

Hawaii, Alaska and parts of New England have some of the highest average electricity costs, while parts of the Midwest, West and South tend to have lower rates. Gas prices are lower along the Gulf Coast and higher in California. But an analysis from the Union of Concerned Scientists still found that charging a vehicle was more cost effective than filling up at the pump across 50 major American cities. “We saw potential savings everywhere,” said David Reichmuth, a senior engineer for the group’s Clean Transportation Program.
Still, the upfront cost of an electric vehicle continues to be a barrier for many would-be owners.
The federal government offers a tax credit for some new electric vehicle purchases, but that does nothing to reduce the initial purchase price and does not apply to used cars. That means it disproportionately benefits wealthier Americans. Some states, like California, offer additional incentives. President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. has pledged to offer rebates that help consumers swap inefficient, old cars for cleaner new ones, and to create 500,000 more electric vehicle charging stations, too.
Chris Gearhart, director of the Center for Integrated Mobility Sciences at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, said electric cars will become more price competitive in coming years as battery prices drop. At the same time, new technologies to reduce exhaust emissions are making traditional cars more expensive. “With that trajectory, you can imagine that even immediately at the purchase price level, certain smaller sedans could reach purchase price parity in the next couple of years,” Dr. Gearhart said.
 
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Very cool thanks for posting this. The scale is tipping very quickly. My wife and I share a hybrid Mitsubishi Outlander. I’m a gardener by trade and share a gas pickup with my nephew who is my business partner. We have been anxiously waiting for the launch of the electric pickups and vans that will soon hit the market. We are headed toward a gas free business model and hope to be fully electric with grid tied solar within a few years. We recently ordered a new commercial grade electric stand on zero turn mower from Mean Green Mowers based in Ohio. They have similar tables to what you’ve shown where the cost of entry is high but it is more cost effective overtime. We’ve gone full electric with all of our small power equipment and would never go back to gas. It’s so much nicer to work in a clean and quiet environment and there is no maintenance to worry about never mind the money we save. The next few years will be a real game changer. Looking forward to a cleaner future!

 
Awesome! For commercial purposes, I think it was Bollinger that has a good performing model to be produced. Lower range (250 mi) but looks like it will be very popular and a good combination of practical and fun.
GM and Ford are saying that they will be putting out full size pickups that are electric in the next few years. Ford even posted a video of a prototype towing a train (yes a train). A bit gimicky but the torque on these things will be amazing.
And of course, there is Rivian. I am not sure how good it will be for businesses as the bed is smaller and it is higher price point. They are private and valued at 26.5 bln (about the size of ford); backed by Amazon equity and an order for 100,000 amazon vans (key to Amazon's 0 emission pledge).
I have a Launch Edition R1s reservation in on the Rivian SUV. The specs (same as the truck) are ridiculous - 0-60 in 3 secs; between 9 and 14 inches clearance depending on driving speed/mode; 300 mi of range (not sure what that will mean in the cold); truck tows 10,000; SUV 7700; R1s offroad package has a built in air compressor and underbody armor : ). 10,000 upgrade for R1T to 400 mi range.
Rivian.com

The EV tech is getting amazing. I am getting sucked in on youtube, but for example, Tesla's announced 16% increase efficiency in battery was largely ignored; however, that will come at a 50%(!) cheaper battery, which means price drops and increased profits, which means getting closer to a 25,000 quality EV (Tesla says 3 more years. We'll see).

The EV future is bright.
 
Nice! You’ll be eating Corvettes on the way to the Home Depot
 
Having a very good time with my RAV4 Prime Plug-in Hybrid. When I'm sticking around home, most of the driving is done using EV. So might only need one tank of gas for 3-4 weeks just doing local errands. But I don't have to plan when doing a trip of 200-700 miles in a day. Unlike my friend who has a Tesla. Until his daughter went to boarding school in Lake Placid, he didn't do long distance driving much at all. Driving from LP to NC in early January when it was snowing was pretty stressful, partially because of having to figure out where to find the next Tesla charging station.

MPG is between 37-39 for the RAV4 Prime depending what type of roads. Range is around 450 miles on a full tank. Way better than the 2007 minivan for MPG and range.
 
Seems to me if you plan on buying a car and driving it into the ground the EV would be cheaper. I am converting over cause I am sick of sending NIMO and Exxon my money, Verizon is also on the list. You would never know when you call them you are the customer. Pricks
 
Seems to me if you plan on buying a car and driving it into the ground the EV would be cheaper. I am converting over cause I am sick of sending NIMO and Exxon my money, Verizon is also on the list. You would never know when you call them you are the customer. Pricks

Yes, imo the only way to make sense of an electric vehicle is to own the thing until the cows come home. The depreciation on those things is astounding. That's why there's no lease on them.
 
Nothing depreciates like a Mercedes-Benz BMW or an Audi
 
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