Fast Tracks: Paying to Cut the Line

[Harvey]

I dunno. Seeing someone going to the Ski School line with an instructor/guide in a resort jacket is a bit different than having a separate "express line."

I agree but not totally sure why.

As a parent with a little kid at Gore, you start on the magic carpet, then the Bear Cub Poma (platter lift), then you moved to the Sunway chair. No real line issues at any of those chairs except maybe Sunway.

Once it's time for a gondola or Adirondack Express ride, it's hard to stomach a 20 minute wait in line when you are paying 80 for an hour lesson. Maybe because I've been there I accept it. Although, I never remember resenting it before I had a kid.

 

[Harvey]

Of course, I think the real thing is that skiing is an elitist sport to start out with (you get in your SUV, don overpriced weatherproof apparel, click your $400 boots into $600 skis, get ferried up a mountain with powerful machines, ski on fake snow made from water sucked from local rivers, etc.). Adding one more level of elitism is hardly the end of the world.

This.

Added to the fact that if you don't ski at places that are really crowded, you won't have to face it.

I used to think there was a pendulum at work, but people just keep getting in line.

 

[snoloco]

With a lesson, you're mainly paying for the instruction, not the line cutting, and having to wait in line would be taking away from the time one paid for with the lesson. Guests in lessons also aren't taking as many laps as guests who aren't, so there's less effect on the regular line. I don't think ski school and lessons have any measurable affect on the regular line outside of the lifts that get a lot of large ski school groups.

With a fast pass line, people are buying all day access, and aren't lapping at the slower pace that ski school or private lessons do. I believe that would have a much more measurable impact on the regular line. I think the fact that the availability of a premium product like this, makes the existing product worse is the issue people have with it.

I also believe it will see limited success. Everyone has a tolerance level for waiting. Mine is pretty low. At around 5 minutes, I'll most likely move to a different lift with a shorter wait. I may tolerate a longer line if I'm only waiting once to get somewhere rather than lapping. At Killington, I might prefer waiting 15 minutes to take the K1 instead of taking the Snowdon Triple to the North Ridge Quad, but then I'll stay on the upper mountain after that. Despite my low line tolerance, I won't pay extra to cut them, because I know Killington pretty well, and what time to ride most lifts with little to no waiting time. That means the potential market for Fast Tracks is limited to rich, low line tolerance, and limited knowledge of the mountain and how to avoid lines.

 

[Harvey]

I think the fact that the availability of a premium product like this, makes the existing product worse is the issue people have with it.

This is really the rub. Does this drive the value of a pass down, in a measurable way? Meaning, measurable by the honcho decision makers.

Maybe make em pay extra for a covid free line! ?

 

[JTG]

At many places there are programs other than ski school that facilitate some kind of line cutting, so it’s never really been just noobs taking lessons. I’ve personally booked expert lessons and all mountain guided programs on western trips, specifically to bypass lines on a powder day. Will this be much different? Probably not. Will mountains have the space to put in a dedicated ‘fast pass’ line in addition to the regular and ski school queues? Probably not. So, perhaps there are more people filtering thru the lesson/fast pass line, I guess how much outrage comes from this depends on how much it gets used. Everyday, I wouldn’t use it. When I’m on a short western trip, yeah…the extra skiing that it would facilitate would be worth the price, likely. Everyone’s circumstances are different, almost everyone finds value in spending $ on things others might not. Same applies here I suppose. I’m surprised more options like this didn’t exist previously.

 

[snoloco]

This is really the rub. Does this drive the value of a pass down, in a measurable way? Meaning, measurable by the honcho decision makers.

Maybe make em pay extra for a covid free line! ?

It's hard to say what the effect is, since it depends on the number of fast tracks users and how the lines are merged.

There's really no easy comparison to other ski areas, so I'll use amusement parks.

I go to Six Flags New England most often. All Six Flags parks use a skip the line system called The Flash Pass. It's a virtual queue that has 3 different tiers and the wait time reductions are based off the regular line. The lowest tier is 25% reduction, the second tier is 60%, and the highest tier is 90%, so if it's an hour wait in the plebe line, it reduces to 45, 24, and 6 minutes respectively. The way it works is you make a reservation on your phone. When it's your turn to ride, you show a bar code to the attendant and go right to the front. So not only is your wait time reduced, but you also don't have to wait in line. Since it's based on the regular line, it also limits the number of times Flash Pass users can skip, thus limiting the effect on the regular line. Most rides have a merge point with the regular line at the station, so you get to pick your seat like anyone else, and you're not taking someone's seat who's next to ride.

Cedar Fair parks have a system called Fast Lane. It's just a wristband that gives you unlimited access to the Fast Lane entrance at any included ride. There is no electronic reservation. This means your wait time is based on the number of Fast Lane users, rather than the wait time of the regular line. Like Flash Pass, there is a merge point, but unlike Flash Pass it alternates 50:50 with the regular line, so you don't get an almost immediate ride. In fact, if it's a super busy day with lots of Fast Lane users, you might have to wait upwards of 30 minutes.

I think the Six Flags system is better since it means that those who pay extra don't have to wait in line at all, but it doesn't have as much effect on the regular line, since it is based on that wait time.

The Powdr system will more closely resemble the Cedar Fair system. The biggest difference is that ski lifts operate at a far higher capacity than roller coasters do. One of Cedar Point's most popular roller coasters, Millennium Force, operates at a capacity of 1296 riders per hour. Killington's lowest capacity lift included on Fast Tracks is Skyeship at 1800. The highest capacity lift on the system is the Snowdon Six Express at 3000. That means shorter wait times to start with, and less effect on the regular line. That leaves the biggest variables as the number of users, and how the merge point works. If there's hardly any Fast Tracks users, then you might not see anyone go through the special line while you're waiting. If there are a lot of Fast Tracks users, and it's a 50:50 merge point, then that would dramatically increase the wait time for everyone else. There's also probably little to no effect on the singles line, since you are filling all the empty seats, regardless of which line the groups came out of.

 

[riverc0il]

This is the amusement park model all the way: charge ridiculously low season pass prices, which gets guests to the park, and then nickel and dime them with extras (including line cutting privileges).

Compared to full day tickets, you can almost always get a better value on an amusement park season pass with just 2-3 visits. That means it is cheaper to get a season pass than 2-3 day tickets. Then, you have option of buying line cutting based on the traffic on any given day.

At some parks, the line cutting option is $50-100+. If you are a frequent guest, the season pass is negligible and a low sunk cost (many parks are as low as $200ish, and more months than a ski season). So you splurge for line cutting when you go on busy days and want to get a ton of rides (aka powder day equivalent). And wait in lines when you are just there because you have a season pass and it beats not being there.

Where this gets nasty is the more people that buy line cutting, the more it becomes necessary for other people to buy line cutting. If no one does it, then no one needs it. So as more people buy into the program, the more it becomes necessary to have in order to have even a small amount of fun. At amusement parks, it can sometimes be the difference between a 2 minute or 2 hour wait, depending how the line merging happens.

But you got a season pass for a few hundred, so did you really get a bad value only getting 10 rides/runs in one day? Personally, I would rather pay a LOT more for a season pass and not have a line cutting system in place. cheap season passes come with baggage.

All major amusement parks and many local/minor parks use this type of system. Resorts have two options: be an alternative and try to steel market share or cave and join, which means only the smaller indy areas won't have the system. I suspect the latter will happen.

If all the majors all do it together, then there are very few alternatives for typical skiers. And that ain't people on this forum, average skiers don't know Plattekill et al even exist. Joe Average skier will pay for this, they are already putting up $1k-10k+ for a family trip of skiing frozen groomers, what is an extra hundred to them so they can get more runs on their two or three yearly ski trips?

Here is the real question:

You already have a season pass to a given area and it is a foot plus powder day and the resort is busy. Are you honestly not going to buy a cut the line pass if it is available? You'll complain like heck, but you're going to buy it because otherwise, you'll wait many times longer and get many times less runs... and the powder is going to get tracked up many times faster before you get your next run in...

Or people vote with their money... but not if all resorts go this way. Which is probably inevitable.

 

[raisingarizona]

Ha! I stopped going to movie theaters years ago because popcorn was around 10 bucks.

At this point I don’t care much. I woke up to 8 inches of snow this morning in Cedar City and my first feelings weren’t excitement for ski season but annoyance to have to deal with the cold and wet snow. I may be ready for a break from my regular winter routines. The warm desert air sounds better and better every year.

 

[TheGreatAbyss]

Joe Average skier will pay for this, they are already putting up $1k-10k+ for a family trip of skiing frozen groomers, what is an extra hundred to them so they can get more runs on their two or three yearly ski trips?

On a busy holiday weekend it could be $100 X family of 4 X 4 days of skiing which is an extra $1,600 they weren't planning on spending. I've never seen the income distribution of skiers at Killington, but I do think the "average" skier that fills up the corals is more price sensitive then some here assume.

After the bait-and-switch experience of buying a mega pass and then having to spend more on the fast past once they are there, some families annual ski vacation may become a trip to Paradise Island instead.

 

[JTG]

Yeah, this Fast Tracks seems to be a Cedar Point equivalent, if you are going with theme park parallels.

Six Flags and Disney (which will be charging for old Fast Pass privileges, renamed to Genie+, that used to be “free” as part of your $120 ticket) use a reservation type system that not only shortens lines, but spreads people around (both space and time-wise). No doing that at a ski area.

On average days I bet this new offering doesn’t have much effect on lift lines in general. Where it may get ugly is when/if, like on a powder day, lots and lots of people buy the Fast Tracks access. In Syndrome’s immortal words…if everyone is special (Super), no one is! Imagine the Bogner set who paid for their whole family to have shorter lines, only for the lines not to be much shorter.