Detachable vs Fixed Grip Lifts

[DHA]

I'll say that I'm impressed the place is still open. When they built it I thought for sure it wouldn't make it 10 years due to the debt load it created. I guess it did put the place into BK, but it seems to be doing good now?

Yeah, so did I. The debt load DID put it into bankruptcy when the bank holding Greek's line of credit went tits up in the "Great Recession". The regulators called the loan and Greek didn't have (or just didn't come up with) the cash.

But never mind all that... It's all good. The current owner got it thru an auction where nobody else was seriously bidding against him (and his former partner). They got it for a song and the bankruptcy erased all the debt Al and Wes had accumulated since 1960.

Lately management seems to be making smart decisions. Janky old beginner Chair 2 was replaced by a (newish) 3 person chair that has a variable speed motor that everyone seems to really like. And since the original length of the newish chair was about a mile, there are enough spare parts left over (towers, wheels, and other things) to provide spare parts for existing elderly chairs. Three new snowmaking pumps, a new pump house and new air and water lines along Karyatis, Meadow, Stoic and Chairs 1 and Visions have been cranking out more snow than Greek has ever been able to before. Now they need to replace more of the ancient pipes sitting under the rest of the mountain.

Hopefully John will avoid the old adage that owning a ski area can make a small fortune out of a large one!

 

[Campgottagopee]

bank holding Greek's line of credit

The writing was on the wall when not one single local bank would touch them.

Lately management seems to be making smart decisions. Janky old beginner Chair 2 was replaced by a (newish) 3 person chair that has a variable speed motor that everyone seems to really like. And since the original length of the newish chair was about a mile, there are enough spare parts left over (towers, wheels, and other things) to provide spare parts for existing elderly chairs. Three new snowmaking pumps, a new pump house and new air and water lines along Karyatis, Meadow, Stoic and Chairs 1 and Visions have been cranking out more snow than Greek has ever been able to before. Now they need to replace more of the ancient pipes sitting under the rest of the mountain.

No doubt. The yearly ski side improvements are a welcome change. Some folks seem to lack patience wanting new lifts, etc, overnight but John is too smart for that.

Hopefully John will avoid the old adage that owning a ski area can make a small fortune out of a large one!

LOL!!

 

[DHA]

The writing was on the wall when not one single local bank would touch them.

Without a doubt nobody should have touched Greek (for a reasonable rate) back then. But then, I'd guess too many loans like Greek's is exactly why the bank went T U in the Great Economic Debacle of 2008/9!!! But it's all good for Wes! He's still got a job at the place he grew up, all the debt is gone! Poof!!! What a deal!

 

[Tjf1967]

Without a doubt nobody should have touched Greek (for a reasonable rate) back then. But then, I'd guess too many loans like Greek's is exactly why the bank went T U in the Great Economic Debacle of 2008/9!!! But it's all good for Wes! He's still got a job at the place he grew up, all the debt is gone! Poof!!! What a deal!

Almost like it was government funded

 

[Ripitz]

Almost like it was government funded

Poof!!!

 

[gorgonzola]

yea when Greek's first financing deal fell through and the steel sat on a trailer for a year you'd think the writing was on the wall, or written in the snow in yellow...

 

[DHA]

New article about delays in the lift making world.

Supply chain issues prevent yet another thing from spinning: new Colorado chairlifts

Supply chain challenges at overseas factories has delayed the opening of most new chairlifts installed at North American ski areas for 22-23.

coloradosun.com

Not only in the lift making world, but in every other aspect of running a ski area. I've heard that Greek has at least 6 fan style snow maker machines sitting in storage because of lack of repair parts.

 

[snoloco]

https://www.attitash.com/explore-the-resort/activities-and-events/event-detail.aspx?id=%7B25fe2817-4b8d-40e7-bed8-9dbe348e7921%7D

Today, Attitash officially retired their Summit Triple. It will be removed and scrapped, with the chairs being sold on the link above. In its place will be a new Leitner-Poma high speed quad called The Mountaineer.

The Summit Triple was known as one of the most hated lifts in the Northeast. At 6205 feet long, it was quite a long ride, but it wasn't much longer if at all compared to lifts like the Red Chair at Magic, Single Chair at MRG, or Madonna 1 at Smuggler's Notch.

So why was it so hated? I have 3 theories.

1. Everything is relative, and Attitash has detachable lifts.

If a resort has detachable lifts, then fixed grips that run half as fast are going to feel quite slow in comparison. At resorts with only fixed grip lifts, there is nothing to compare them to unfavorably.

2. It symbolizes the failure of Les Otten to complete his vision for the resort.

Attitash is an ex-ASC resort, and like all ex-ASC resorts, they went through a solid decade of being run into the ground. That didn't only mean no capital improvements, but also many corners being cut and basic maintenance being deferred or forgone. The Summit Triple should've been replaced back then, and that it stuck around for other 16 years, means it served as a symbol for all the damage ASC did to the resort.

3. The level of skier riding it.

With fixed grip lifts, the level of skier plays a huge role in how fast the lift can run, and how often there are stops or slows. Fixed grip lifts that serve exclusively expert terrain tend to run fast, and have few slows and stops, if any. The Summit Triple got a mix of ability levels, and thus would've stopped often.

I've noticed a trend that lifts that are the most hated are often long fixed grips at resorts with detachables. My theory is that fixed grip lifts are better liked at resorts that operate only fixed grip lifts, but I'd be interested in hearing other takes on this subject.

 

[MarzNC]

With fixed grip lifts, the level of skier plays a huge role in how fast the lift can run, and how often there are stops or slows. Fixed grip lifts that serve exclusively expert terrain tend to run fast, and have few slows and stops, if any. The Summit Triple got a mix of ability levels, and thus would've stopped often.

By the time I checked out Attitash during a midweek ski safari, the triple ran slow all the time as far as I could tell. I rode it twice to explore the terrain but had no interest in lapping it. There was virtually no one else around, so no stops, just slow. That day I rode all the lifts at Wildcat and Attitash for the first time. Was easy to understand why people wanted the Summit triple to be replaced.

The former Supreme triple at Alta served intermediate, advanced, and expert hike-to terrain. The advanced/experts didn't mind the ride. On weekends when there were more intermediates, the triple would stop at times. One stop per ride wasn't uncommon. Alta added conveyor loading and the advanced/experts hated it because it took a while for them to learn how to deal with loading without speeding through the loading zone. When the Cecret center-pole double and the Supreme triple were replaced with a detachable high-speed quad, there were advanced/experts who were unhappy. They didn't like the long run-out from essentially just before where the old triple loaded. Needless to say, the quad doesn't stop nearly as much and is so much faster that the lap time isn't much different than it was riding the triple.

The advanced/expert skiers who ride the Wildcat double at Alta will be perfectly happy if that lift is not upgraded any time soon. Replacing it with a fixed-grip quad is in the current Master Plan. There are a couple blue routes off Wildcat, but few intermediates who aren't with Alta regulars realize that since in general the Collins side makes cautious intermediates nervous.

 

[MarzNC]

I've noticed a trend that lifts that are the most hated are often long fixed grips at resorts with detachables. My theory is that fixed grip lifts are better liked at resorts that operate only fixed grip lifts, but I'd be interested in hearing other takes on this subject.

Makes some sense for mountains that are mostly catering to locals, as opposed to travelers who plan overnight trips weeks or months in advance.

Bridger Bowl only has fixed-grip lifts, mostly triples. A bit unusual because it's a long-time non-profit run with strong community support. They don't upgrade a lift until money is in the bank. The community appreciates that season passes and lift tickets are very affordable. Especially in comparison to Big Sky an hour away. The contrast between the two mountains in terms of the type of lifts is very clear as Boyne Resorts slowly but surely upgrades many of the lifts to high-speed detachables.