Sno Train Discussion

[Ripitz]

Turntables are rarely used today. There are 3 common methods for turning a train around that isn't push/pull.

3. Run-Around: This necessitates decoupling the locomotive from the passenger cars, operating it down a different track, and then switching tracks and recoupling with the passenger cars.

I’m sorry, I’m thick.

There was a train in the Catskills that operated up to the Grand Hotel in Highmount well before Belleayre was even an idea. On the switchback above Pine Hill it is said that passengers would run to the front of the train to see the back of it on the curve below. Once the train reached the top and had to go back it was necessary for the locomotive to be turned around. Or maybe not. Did they turn the locomotive around and run it up to the front on a different track? Was it a double cab that wasn’t turned around and run up? Or was it possible to leave it in place and operate it backwards? I don’t really know, just very curious about these things. Amazing that all of this has been abandoned and erased in such a short period of time.

 

[snoloco]

Sno trains made sense when Schenectady to North Creek was a 4 hour drive in a Model A that might not make it, or when it was an 8 hour train trip to spend a week in northern Vermont, but all that was a long time ago. Interstate highways and air travel killed all that.

I'm not speaking about the snow train in particular, but the idea that trains are obsolete is not correct. Two recent expansions of state-supported Amtrak routes prove that even an infrequent and relatively slow train can be popular enough that it greatly exceeds its ridership projections. The most recent example is the Mardi Gras Service, which runs between New Orleans and Mobile. It only runs twice a day, has an average end to end speed of only 38.6 mph, and the route it serves is not exactly densely populated. But it is on track to double its ridership projections.

Busses make more sense

In many cases, yes, as they can provide a nonstop express service, and it is difficult to justify maintaining a rail line for what is largely seasonal service. These trips are largely limited to major cities, and always have been. I'm not aware of any regular trips even from Albany to the ski resorts north of it, and especially nothing from Saratoga where I live. I wish there were more viable public transit options to reach ski resorts, as I drive literally thousands of miles for skiing each year, I wish I didn't have to as much.

The whole Epic/Ikon thing has split the market in half. It used to be you could fill a bus with 50 skiers who would go anywhere, now 25 will only go Epic, and the rest want to go Ikon. Also mountains aren't offering cheap group tickets much anymore, and some are refusing to allow busses on the property at all.

The pendulum is swinging back on this though. Let me explain. I grew up skiing at Hunter, and they always had lots of bus trips from NYC. Many of those trips were organized by ski shops, who developed their own relationships with different ski resorts, and would sell discounted lift tickets to include with the bus. Well, this did not work so well once everyone was on Epic or Ikon. The ski resorts seemed to fail to realize that the bus trips are still important and acted like they did not need them. They were largely shut out during the pandemic, but after the restrictions were lifted were slow to come back.

Lately, it seems the organizers of these trips have adjusted to operate under the assumption that a lot of people have epic or ikon, and sell bus-only tickets, because they simply don't need a lift ticket. And I think ski resorts realized that having these trips come to their mountains is valuable, and also reduces instances of parking lots filling up. Hunter for instance was heavily promoting the company OvRride during their Oktoberfest. They are definitly more expensive than they used to be, but then again, what is.

 

[snoloco]

There was a train in the Catskills that operated up to the Grand Hotel in Highmount well before Belleayre was even an idea. On the switchback above Pine Hill it is said that passengers would run to the front of the train to see the back of it on the curve below. Once the train reached the top and had to go back it was necessary for the locomotive to be turned around. Or maybe not. Did they turn the locomotive around and run it up to the front on a different track? Was it a double cab that wasn’t turned around and run up? Or was it possible to leave it in place and operate it backwards? I don’t really know, just very curious about these things. Amazing that all of this has been abandoned and erased in such a short period of time.

There was unlikely enough space at the top of the hill for a full loop track, or a wye long enough to turn the entire train around. So they likely would've turned the locomotive around at a wye, and then ran it around the train on the siding. Most old passenger coaches had seats that folded back and forth, so the conductor would flip them all before departing in the other direction. This is all assuming a steam locomotive. It is possible that they could've just done the runaround, and ran with the locomotive facing backwards on the way down.

Early diesel locomotives could often operate in either direction. Unlike a steam locomotive, where the driving cab is behind the engine, in a diesel locomotive, it is usually in front of the engine, and because the engine is narrower than the driving cab, it is possible to see the tracks from either direction. When running "backwards", it was called "long hood forward". This is almost never done anymore, as all modern diesel locomotives currently in production in North America do not have any visibility towards the rear. It is much simpler to put a cab control car on the other end and operate push/pull.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

When running "backwards", it was called "long hood forward". This is almost never done anymore, as all modern diesel locomotives currently in production in North America

It's hard to tell from your sentence if you mean it's not done anymore period or not done anymore only with modern diesels. I assume the latter.

Every day on New Jersey Transit, you see diesels going long hood forward. They've been threatening to finally replace these old locomotives ("Geeps," some up to 60 years old/pic below); however, as this non-paywalled NY Times article explains, they're unsexy but very reliable so who knows when that'll actually happen.

 

[TheGreatAbyss]

OvrRide was/is very popular

 

[TheGreatAbyss]

The only problem with a bus as enthusiasts, is that we want the freedom of a car to get first tracks on a pow day, but most people don't care about that

 

[Ripitz]

I'm not speaking about the snow train in particular, but the idea that trains are obsolete is not correct. Two recent expansions of state-supported Amtrak routes prove that even an infrequent and relatively slow train can be popular enough that it greatly exceeds its ridership projections.

There is a plan to extend the Catskill Mountain Railroad up to the Ashokan Reservoir.

CMRR Expansion - Catskill Mountain Railroad

catskillmountainrailroad.com

The idea is to provide a rail to trail service for both scenic rides and viable transportation. A period correct terminal with bathrooms is planned. People traveling on the Thruway will be able to exit at Kingston and take the train up to the reservoir where they can rent bikes.

My understanding is that the train service along the reservoir was abandoned and will never be restored because a filtration system for the water supply would be necessary.

Nevertheless, that area is one the most scenic places in the east coast IMO.

A cohesive connection to Phoenicia and ultimately Pine Hill would be both a scenic attraction and safe alternative to car-less transportation.

 

[Ripitz]

I’ve also heard talk of restoring the Otis Elevating Railway from the valley up to North-South Lake. The Kaaterskill Clove has been designated a riparian corridor in need of protection. Increased visitation and lack of infrastructure has overwhelmed Kaaterskill Falls and Fawn’s Leap. Currently there is a “trolley” bus with limited seasonal service in that area but long term solutions that involve diverting traffic is necessary. I believe the right of way is still intact. A train may not be feasible but it could be a cable car.

The Mountainside Ride That Opened Up the Catskills

Hudson Valley Viewfinder is a collaborative digital magazine celebrating the inspirational beauty of Hudson Valley communities and nature.

www.scenichudson.org

Exploring Catskill Railroad Remnants

Tuesday was set aside to document many of the Catskill's area oft forgotten railroad remnants. The goal was to retrace parts of the Catsk...

rc-pedalpoint.blogspot.com

 

[gregmarx]

There is a plan to extend the Catskill Mountain Railroad up to the Ashokan Reservoir.

This sounds really cool to me but when I went looking for info on where it stands most recent thing I found was a (paywalled) Times-Union article from April: "Ulster County committee recommends no rail line to Ashokan Reservoir."

The recommendation was to make the section where the railroad wants to expand be a mixed-use trail, and to have the county build a station near the current end of the rail line. The railroad didn't like this idea very much, and I guess they've kept pushing for their plan including a pitch to the Woodstock town board over the summer.

Anyone know if there's been any rethinking on the county's part?

Agree that the reservoir promenade is stunning, and seems seriously underused from the handful of times I've been there.

 

[Ripitz]

This sounds really cool to me but when I went looking for info on where it stands most recent thing I found was a (paywalled) Times-Union article from April: "Ulster County committee recommends no rail line to Ashokan Reservoir."

The recommendation was to make the section where the railroad wants to expand be a mixed-use trail, and to have the county build a station near the current end of the rail line. The railroad didn't like this idea very much, and I guess they've kept pushing for their plan including a pitch to the Woodstock town board over the summer.

Anyone know if there's been any rethinking on the county's part?

Agree that the reservoir promenade is stunning, and seems seriously underused from the handful of times I've been there.

I’m definitely siding with the railroad on this one. “Train to nowhere” is right. The end of the line needs to be up at the reservoir not at the Hickory Smokehouse. I’m usually sympathetic to wetland and neighborhood issues but the county needs to address the amount of traffic coming up Rte 28. That hill climb section after Kenco is like the Indy 500, even with all of the speed traps, there’s nothing relaxing about it. Maybe it won’t alleviate the problem but it would provide people with an alternative.

I’ve never biked that section and have no plans to do so. From the south I leave the Wallkill Valley Rail Trail in Cottekill (near the lost ski center at William’s Lake) and take back roads (usually Ashokan Rd) to the Reservoir promenade. There are some nice spots to visit all over the area but no cohesive connections. Kingston should be connected to the mountains.