Scoobert
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2024
Anyone here have strong opinions about Prop 1? Personally, I'm finding it a bit confusing.
Amendment Text
NCPR Story
Amendment Text
NCPR Story
NY Prop 1 2025
- Thread starter Scoobert
- Start date
Campgottagopee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2020
Yes, I have a strong opinion on this as well as the groups pushing the approval of this amendment. That said, all I'll say is if this trail was a snowmobile connector trail it would not be getting support. This trail, along with the snowmobile connector trail, would do nothing but benefit local economies as well as the lives of people actually living in the ADK.
I'll be voting no.
I'll be voting no.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2020
So Van Ho cut trees in the Forest Preserve and now they are going to make it legal after the fact? ORDA didn't know the law or they ignored it?
What happens if it gets voted down? Do they reforest the land and get rid of the trails? What is the punishment for cutting 2500 acres of forest preserve?
What groups will qualify for situations like this, where the law is broken, and then changed? Seems like an odd precedent.
What happens if it gets voted down? Do they reforest the land and get rid of the trails? What is the punishment for cutting 2500 acres of forest preserve?
What groups will qualify for situations like this, where the law is broken, and then changed? Seems like an odd precedent.
Campgottagopee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2020
Yes, exactly.
I don't think anything will happen if it ends up being a no vote. I mean, what could possibly be done?
I'd be curious to know what trees were actually cut. Certain groups consider 3" and under "timber", which is laughable.
The precedent would be set for other groups, clubs, towns, etc that it's ok to improve your trail systems and economy.
I haven't researched it but I'd be curious to know how much revenue groups like ORDA generate vs snowmobiling in NY.
I don't think anything will happen if it ends up being a no vote. I mean, what could possibly be done?
I'd be curious to know what trees were actually cut. Certain groups consider 3" and under "timber", which is laughable.
The precedent would be set for other groups, clubs, towns, etc that it's ok to improve your trail systems and economy.
I haven't researched it but I'd be curious to know how much revenue groups like ORDA generate vs snowmobiling in NY.
Peter Minde
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2020
I'm voting yes. Van Ho should have had an exemption to Article XIV the way WF, Gore, and Belle do, a long time ago.
Back in the 2010's I tried to write a story about the Ho's lack of an Article XIV exemption. I can't tell ya how quick people hung up on me or how many emails went unanswered.
@Campgottagopee I get your frustration about the snowmobile trail connector. If you could provide some additional details I'd appreciate it.
Back in the 2010's I tried to write a story about the Ho's lack of an Article XIV exemption. I can't tell ya how quick people hung up on me or how many emails went unanswered.
@Campgottagopee I get your frustration about the snowmobile trail connector. If you could provide some additional details I'd appreciate it.
Campgottagopee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2020
I'm most hopeful, that if voted no, it could start to pave the way for the language of the NYS Constitution to be dragged into modern day. The current language has been ridden to insane heights by obstruction groups.
Campgottagopee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2020
When I get the chance I'll do some digging on googes. I believe it was discussed in the Protect thread a couple or so years ago, too.
Campgottagopee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2020
Here's a quick overview
www.adirondackexplorer.org
Judgment may end snowmobile trail litigation - Adirondack Explorer
An Albany County Supreme Court justice has affirmed that some forest preserve snowmobile trails violate the state constitution.
www.adirondackexplorer.org
Campgottagopee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2020
Auditors: Olympic authority loses record $50 million last year - Adirondack Explorer
Lake Placid's Olympic authority loses record $50 million despite revenue gains. Audit shows event spending and personnel costs drive mounting deficits.
www.adirondackexplorer.org
From google
The total economic impact of snowmobiling in New York is estimated at nearly $900 million annually, though the precise 2024 revenue is not yet broken down. Direct revenue from snowmobile registrations in the 2024-25 season was over $7.6 million, an increase from the previous year, while other revenue sources include lodging, food, gas, and retail sales, which support local businesses and generate sales and fuel tax.
- Total annual economic impact: New York snowmobiling is an economic engine with an estimated annual impact of nearly $900 million, according to the New York State Snowmobile Association (NYSSA).
- 2024-25 registration fees: Over $7.6 million was collected from snowmobile registration fees during the 2024-25 season.
- Indirect revenue: The total economic impact is much higher, as it includes millions spent by snowmobilers on lodging, food, gas, and retail, as well as sales and fuel taxes generated from these activities.
- Regional impact: Specific regions experience significant economic impact, such as the Adirondacks ($245 million), Tug Hill ($165 million), and Central New York ($163 million).
Cork
Wylie Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2020
Here's a great breakdown!
I can't remember where I read it (I've read just about every article on this subject) but it very explicitly stated this was NOT a land swap. Well, if it's not a land swap, then why is the state required to purchase 2500 acres of land? This seems like a backdoor plan of some sort. Also odd that I could ONLY find articles that were pro amendment. People close to me shrugged it off "well, the work is already done, and we get to add land to the Forest Preserve, so it's a win-win!" But I know how environmental groups get in the ADK, there is no way all this work just "happened" and no one spoke up.
So let's get to the details and history of the complex.
In the 1930's, they chose Mt Van Ho as the location for the bobsled track. The original plan was to build it on Forest Preserve lands however the Association for the Protection of the Adirondacks (a precursor to Protect the Adirondacks) sued which forced the track to be built on land owned by the Town of North Elba. In the 1960's, the complex was expanded into the Forest Preserve lands (already designated as Intensive Use) to create the Nordic and Biathlon trails. No amendment was made. The complex was built up and improved some more for the 1980 Olympics. No amendment was made. After the Olympics, the Olympic Regional Development Agency (ORDA) was created by the State of NY to manage the Olympic Center, Jumping Complex, Mt Van Ho, and Whiteface, Gore, and Belleayre ski centers. (I think it is important to note; while the mountains are managed by ORDA, they're still overseen by the DEC) Throughout the next 40 years, continuous improvements were made to the Mt Van Ho complex, and while people were aware an amendment was needed, nothing was done?
Enter 2020. The complex is going through yet another upgrade to host multiple events including the World University Games in 2023. Protect the Adirondacks, an environmental lobby group, finally says enough is enough, lets push an amendment. But they do not want a simple "use" amendment like Whiteface, Gore, and Belleayre have. No, they have decided NYS needs to be punished for their lack of oversight of the amendment. And that punishment should be the forced purchase of 1500 acres to be added to the Forest Preserve.
And there was my Aha! moment where everything finally made sense. Protect the Adirondacks was forcing their own agenda into the amendment. To cut through the red tape of NYS buying land and one step closer to creating their ideal "Forever Wild" dream forest. Somewhere between 2020 and today, they decided 1500 acres was not enough and that acreage was increased to 2500.
But you see, they're correct (whoever "they" were), this isn't a land swap. No land is being removed from the Forest Preserve. It's already classified as it should be. Therefore, there is no need for land to be added. Save that for the amendment that removes Camp Gabriels, Mount McGregor, and Moriah Shock prisons from the Forest Preserve so that the State is not stuck with decaying land that they cannot do anything with.
You may ask what will happen to Mt. Van Ho if the proposal doesn't pass? Honestly, I don't think anything will happen. The complex has been operating just fine for the past 60 years. It'll be just fine waiting another 3 years for a new proposal to hit the ballot. One that doesn't force the vengeful acquisition of land.
#VoteNO #NYSProp1
I can't remember where I read it (I've read just about every article on this subject) but it very explicitly stated this was NOT a land swap. Well, if it's not a land swap, then why is the state required to purchase 2500 acres of land? This seems like a backdoor plan of some sort. Also odd that I could ONLY find articles that were pro amendment. People close to me shrugged it off "well, the work is already done, and we get to add land to the Forest Preserve, so it's a win-win!" But I know how environmental groups get in the ADK, there is no way all this work just "happened" and no one spoke up.
So let's get to the details and history of the complex.
In the 1930's, they chose Mt Van Ho as the location for the bobsled track. The original plan was to build it on Forest Preserve lands however the Association for the Protection of the Adirondacks (a precursor to Protect the Adirondacks) sued which forced the track to be built on land owned by the Town of North Elba. In the 1960's, the complex was expanded into the Forest Preserve lands (already designated as Intensive Use) to create the Nordic and Biathlon trails. No amendment was made. The complex was built up and improved some more for the 1980 Olympics. No amendment was made. After the Olympics, the Olympic Regional Development Agency (ORDA) was created by the State of NY to manage the Olympic Center, Jumping Complex, Mt Van Ho, and Whiteface, Gore, and Belleayre ski centers. (I think it is important to note; while the mountains are managed by ORDA, they're still overseen by the DEC) Throughout the next 40 years, continuous improvements were made to the Mt Van Ho complex, and while people were aware an amendment was needed, nothing was done?
Enter 2020. The complex is going through yet another upgrade to host multiple events including the World University Games in 2023. Protect the Adirondacks, an environmental lobby group, finally says enough is enough, lets push an amendment. But they do not want a simple "use" amendment like Whiteface, Gore, and Belleayre have. No, they have decided NYS needs to be punished for their lack of oversight of the amendment. And that punishment should be the forced purchase of 1500 acres to be added to the Forest Preserve.
And there was my Aha! moment where everything finally made sense. Protect the Adirondacks was forcing their own agenda into the amendment. To cut through the red tape of NYS buying land and one step closer to creating their ideal "Forever Wild" dream forest. Somewhere between 2020 and today, they decided 1500 acres was not enough and that acreage was increased to 2500.
But you see, they're correct (whoever "they" were), this isn't a land swap. No land is being removed from the Forest Preserve. It's already classified as it should be. Therefore, there is no need for land to be added. Save that for the amendment that removes Camp Gabriels, Mount McGregor, and Moriah Shock prisons from the Forest Preserve so that the State is not stuck with decaying land that they cannot do anything with.
You may ask what will happen to Mt. Van Ho if the proposal doesn't pass? Honestly, I don't think anything will happen. The complex has been operating just fine for the past 60 years. It'll be just fine waiting another 3 years for a new proposal to hit the ballot. One that doesn't force the vengeful acquisition of land.
#VoteNO #NYSProp1
