Comments for Harvey Road

Comment on Belleayre, Skiing and Growth in The Catskills by Jeff

Jeff — Fri, 24 May 2013 18:43:49 +0000

Yes, I am going to compare the $98 million investment in Gore & WF with the $74 million in proposed investment in Belle. I am making that comparison because a $74 million investment is not a mere “addition of a few trails, a HSQ and a FGQ.” If you are going to advocate for that level of investment in Belle, the investment needs to be justified and put into context. And when compared to the state’s investment in Gore & WF the $74 million proposed for Belle is out of scale.

Here’s one more comparison for context. Gore and WF do a combined $16 – $18 million in gross revenue. The state’s combined investment in those facilities is $98 million, or 6 times gross revenue. Belle does maybe $5 or $6 million in gross revenue. The proposed $74 million investment is 12 to 15 times Belle’s gross revenue. Not only is that out of scale, it also significantly enhances a private for-profit enterprise (the Belleayre Resort). No wonder the other Catskill ski areas are pissed.

My beef with the $74 million is NOT about Gore & WF getting their “fare share.” My beef is about spending money wisely. I agree that Belle has been neglected in the past and needs some “catch-up” investment. I would expect that catch-up investment to come in at more like $10 or $15 million, tops.

Comment on Belleayre, Skiing and Growth in The Catskills by x10003q

x10003q — Fri, 24 May 2013 03:03:57 +0000

Jeff – So you are going to compare the $98 million that NYS spent on WF and Gore with the addition of a few trails, a HSQ and a FGQ? There is no comparison.

Then you seem to say if Gore and WF are getting similar money from now going forward you would be ok with Belleayre getting its money? Gore has doubled in size since the improvements started and there is not much more mileage to build out. What else does WF/Lake Placid need? ORDA just added the $18 million convention center in LP. Does that count? How about all the money spent on the venues? Does that count?

NYS is in the ski business. It has neglected Belleayre for years. It is time to bring the place up to current industry standards.

Comment on Belleayre, Skiing and Growth in The Catskills by ml242

ml242 — Thu, 23 May 2013 21:43:46 +0000

Google maps shows Belleayre being 42 minutes from the thruway whereas Whiteface is 55 if you are going North, which no one basically is, ever.

Comment on Belleayre, Skiing and Growth in The Catskills by Jeff

Jeff — Thu, 23 May 2013 20:08:43 +0000

Yes, like Belleayre, improvements have been made over an extended period of time (decades) at Gore and WF. And like Belleayre, those past improvements at Gore and WF will also need replacement in the future. Instead of re-casting past improvements in today’s dollars, a better comparison would be to look at the level of improvements proposed for Gore and WF over the same period of time as Belle’s $74 million upgrade plan. I don’t know the timeframe for Belle’s improvements, that wasn’t specified in the blog post. Maybe it’s in the UMP, but that’s not linked in the post either. And I don’t know what level of improvements are proposed for Gore and WF over whatever timeframe going forward, but if you’re able to find that out, then you might be able to convince me that a $74 million investment in Belle is reasonable and necessary.

Comment on Belleayre, Skiing and Growth in The Catskills by x10003q

x10003q — Thu, 23 May 2013 02:26:03 +0000

The Gore and WF improvements started decades ago.The Gore high speed triple was cutting edge when it was installed in 1984. Maybe you need to put those amounts in todays dollars.

Comment on Gettin’ in the Wood by Harvey44

Harvey44 — Thu, 23 May 2013 01:54:35 +0000

When it come to wood, I admit we're just playing house heating 200 sq feet, 45 days a year. That "wood pile" picture must make you chuckle. Mike how much space are you heating? Do you use any other heat sources?

Comment on Belleayre, Skiing and Growth in The Catskills by Jeff

Jeff — Wed, 22 May 2013 18:18:01 +0000

Aren’t there already various loans, grants, tax abatements, PILOTs and other incentives available to private enterprises through various IDA and economic development agencies at the local, county and state level? How would what is being proposed be different from those existing programs? Wouldn’t an “independent review board” be duplicative of the agencies already in existence? I can already hear the clamor against yet another public beaurocracy.

For perspective on the proposed $74 million in upgrades at Belleayre, the total cumulative investment in Gore is $56.8 million per ORDA’s fiscal year 2010-11 audited financials. That number represents the total historical cost of all improvements, equipment, buildings, infrastructure, etc. that are currently in service, before any depreciation. For WF it’s $41.7 million.

I’m a strong proponent of state ownership of Gore, Whiteface and Belleayre, but a $74 million investment in Belleayre seems way out of line, even considering that some amount of “catch-up” investment is needed there. It’s hard to believe that the proposed spending will fly given today’s political / economic environment.

Comment on Gettin’ in the Wood by Mike

Mike — Wed, 22 May 2013 17:10:10 +0000

It’s never done. Burning 15+ full cord a winter in a furnace. Just keep cutting, splitting, stacking, burning. Cutting, splitting, stacking, burning. Repeat. A lot of work but still better than going through hundreds of gallons of someone else’s oil.

Comment on Belleayre, Skiing and Growth in The Catskills by x10003q

x10003q — Wed, 22 May 2013 16:17:53 +0000

AS – If Belleayre is so useless how does it draw 3/4 of Whiteface draws? WF has way better terrain and lifts, it has a monster vacation town Lake Placid, and all the winter sports venues, yet barely draws more than Belleayre.

The NYS Thruway was built in the mid 1950s and the section between Albany and NJ follows the Hudson Valley. It is the most efficient route. It made access to Belleayre way easier for those who live in the NYC metro area.

Comment on Belleayre, Skiing and Growth in The Catskills by Ausable Skier

Ausable Skier — Tue, 21 May 2013 03:31:14 +0000

No amount of funding is magically going to transform the basically flat Bell and its lack of vert compared to its more vertically gifted private competitors. Then NYS built the Thruway farther from Bell and that sealed the deal – the so called Rt 28 area is just another of many podunk areas that get obsoleted by the route of modern roadways. Instead of a ski area you should be asking NYS for better road access. Besides being flat and short its farther away from the Thruway. What is it that they say about the key to business success – Location, Location, Location. Bell is cursed so many ways to Sunday that it has no hope of succeeding as a business – public or private.